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167273
03-02-2018, 05:11 PM
Iīm interested in history of this european haplogroup for some time, there are many samples detected in aDna from end of Ice age to Medieval and their distribution is very different now. First possible precursor of I appeared in Pavlov and Vestonice with Gravettien, but it was negative for I1,I2. We donīt have samples in Iberia from time Ice age only El Miron sample which is female, but related to WHG. AFTER Ice age existed in samples from France,Germany and Switzerland, unfortunately most samples are bad quality for subclade identification.

But i think that Balkans was place of origin of I2. In Balkan refugium split I1 from I2 25000BC and expanded all directions with multible subclades. In western Europe appears about 14000 years ago, but expansion stops somewhere in central France and didnīt reach Iberia and Britain which remained C1a2 until neolithic.

We have L161 in mesolithic Lithuania together with pre-L233, L1286 in Scandinavia and Switzerland, in Koros, but after i check snps also in Padina and Vasileyvka. Z161 were in Iron gates, L701 probably too, becouse was found in Alpc Hungary, some CTS10100 come also to east Baltic.

Most if not all western european I2 come with farmers, becouse in Britian farmers practiclly replaced HG. i2a2-M284 and i2a1b-L161 come probably from Low countries or Germany. Neolithic and Chalcolithic iberian samples are I2a1a1-L160, I2a21b1-Z161 and I2a2a2-L1228. M26 was found in Baden culture in Hungary and L1228 in EEF CWC i7272 from Czech rep, but also in Ch.Iberia.. These probably expanded from Balkan-Carpathian region. It is same for I2a2-L38(Koros i4971 and probably Yablakovo i2529). I2c have to go same way.

167273
03-02-2018, 05:20 PM
They expaned from Balkans with Cardial ware to the west together with G2a,E-l618, r1B-v88 and c1A2-v86. To the East have to come in Mesolithic, L699 was created somewhere in Dereivka and become part of Indo-european expansion which returned to the Balkans with steppe dna. Hard say something about L1229, there is only one sample from Vatya.

Pribislav
03-02-2018, 10:43 PM
We have L161 in mesolithic Lithuania together with pre-L233, L1286 in Scandinavia and Switzerland, in Koros, but after i check snps also in Padina and Vasileyvka. Z161 were in Iron gates, L701 probably too, becouse was found in Alpc Hungary, some CTS10100 come also to east Baltic.

Could you post positive calls for those Padina and Vasilevka I2a1 samples? And have you checked I2a1 samples from Zvejnieki (I4438, I4440)?

167273
03-02-2018, 11:00 PM
I check all these samples trough bam kit and morley predictor, but in them i canīt see much snps. Maybe someone check these bams, iīm interested in it too. Padina and Vasilyevka and also two bronze age samples i7197 and i7042 are all M26-, M423-,M223- and negative for some subclades, but on morley tree there are no snps like Cts595, L1286, L1287. What is interesting that sample i2786 have at least 9 M223 negatives too.

167273
03-02-2018, 11:03 PM
I found more negatives than postives in these samples. I check only I2a2a1b CTS101000 samples from Zvejnieki and i found only there are not L701. I try look at i4438 and i4440.

About L621 is interesting that genetiker found one samples from chl.Portugal positive for L621 eq. S26486 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ca117b/. Could be pre- L621, but false positive is more probable.

Pribislav
03-02-2018, 11:30 PM
I check all these samples trough bam kit and morley predictor, but in them i canīt see much snps. Maybe someone check these bams, iīm interested in it too. Padina and Vasilyevka and also two bronze age samples i7197 and i7042 are all M26-, M423-,M223- and negative for some subclades, but on morley tree there are no snps like Cts595, L1286, L1287. What is interesting that sample i2786 have at least 9 M223 negatives too.

Thanks! I still hope Genetiker will eventually do some of the I2 samples. Have you confirmed I7272 is L1228/PF692+, IIRC in the paper he is only Y6098? And I2529 from Yabalkovo is I2a2, have you found some L38+ calls?

167273
03-02-2018, 11:38 PM
Yablakovo is L38-, but there is still big posibility for Y10705 like i4971 from Koros. Sample i7272 is postive for L1228, but that could be false positive, becouse in the study detected other I2a2a2 snps, L1228 have to be real. I originally thought that i7272 is L1229 before study comes out. It is also CTS10100- and have no calls for CTS616,CTS9183,M284 and L1229. I asked genetiker to analyze more samples, but they didnīt responded.

J Man
03-03-2018, 12:25 AM
Good question...I think that some of the I2a present in the Balkans today could stretch all the way back to Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age communities but a good amount may have also arrived with Slavs during the Slavic migrations to that region.

167273
03-03-2018, 10:23 PM
Samples i4438 and i4440 from Latvia are both M26- M423-, so probably L1286 too.

167273
03-04-2018, 03:59 PM
I ask guy from L38 site about i2529 and i2786 samples. They responded:

I looked at the aDNA samples you suggested. This is what I found (I only looked at I2a2a(1) SNPs not at I2a2a SNPs):

In my opinion the Bulgarian Yabalkovo sample I2529 does not belong to the I-Y10705 branch (because of S2501- and S2599-), it also does not seem to appear to be I-M223 (because of P221-) May be a true I2a2* ?

Also the Hungarian sample I2786 sample does not belong to I-Y10705 (because of S2501-, S2568- and S2599-). Olalde haplotypes this sample as I2a2a.

But - I found 2 other I-Y10705 samples:

The Serbian I4915 sample (S2501+, S2599+ and L39-, L38-)
The Scottish I2977 sample from the Orkneys (S2501+, S2599+ and L39-, L40-, S2496-, S2520-)

So I was wrong with i2529, but if he is really I2a2* that could be ancestor of all I2a2 or extinct line. He belongs to early bulgarian neolithic HG origin. But sample i4915 from Hajducka vodenica is Y10705, so these subclade on Balkans after all. Also one scotish sample i2977, other one i2630 is CTS10100, rest are all M284 or L161.

George
03-04-2018, 05:25 PM
How does one differentiate between the WHG and EHG components in a contemporary I2 haplogroup individual?

Szigmund
02-06-2020, 11:08 AM
So... nothing new? :D

Pribislav
02-06-2020, 12:23 PM
So... nothing new? :D

The earliest I2-Din sample so far, albeit still medieval, has been found in Serbia. It's from the medieval layer of the Gomolava necropolis (most famous for it's Vinča culture layers), dated to the second half of 9th century. Technically, he's I2-CTS4002 from his ISOGG assignment, but I have no doubt he'll turn out to be below I2-Y3120, given the period and location.

Szigmund
09-07-2021, 06:22 AM
Any toughts on this article?

https://phylogeographer.com/the-different-paths-of-the-sons-of-slavic-chieftain-i2-y3120-who-lived-200-bc/

Velislav
09-07-2021, 11:06 AM
Any toughts on this article?

https://phylogeographer.com/the-different-paths-of-the-sons-of-slavic-chieftain-i2-y3120-who-lived-200-bc/

I've heard this Celtic theory about I-Y3120 - while this is very possible, I think however this is also very pointless to delve in. At the time when the children of Y3120 are already numerous and enter history, they are already Slavs. Celtic or not, I think it is very likely that we are dealing with an ancient royal bloodline due to the rapid expansion of that lineage in the next 400 years after Y3120.

Aspar
09-07-2021, 01:07 PM
I've heard this Celtic theory about I-Y3120 - while this is very possible, I think however this is also very pointless to delve in. At the time when the children of Y3120 are already numerous and enter history, they are already Slavs. Celtic or not, I think it is very likely that we are dealing with an ancient royal bloodline due to the rapid expansion of that lineage in the next 400 years after Y3120.

I do agree with this statement of yours and that was my opinion for longer now. yDNA lineages don't get numerous by chance unless the progenitor had some privileges and higher social status and this is especially important for the ancient past when the society was more conservative and patriarchal. What's striking with Y3120 is that it's descendants also had the same privileges and we see constant diversification of this lineage since TMRCA up to the early Medieval when the society was broken with the huge migrations that have taken place.

I would argue this Y3120 was a ruler, and a progenitor of a clan. He probably ruled on some territory and had higher social status, thus allowing himself to have more women than ordinary man can allow for himself. His descendants also inherited his higher social status and privileges and allowed themselves to have more women and children than ordinary men can have. This clan would have been part of a broader alliance of clans where lineages such as R-L1029, R-CTS1211 etc. would have been more common. These different clans living nearby eventually minimized the cultural and other differences between themselves and would have had united themselves when a common threat would have shown up on the horizon. Eventually, with the great disturbances in the late antiquity, it seems the men of this clan were also on the move with one group consisted mostly of members bearing the marker known as PH908 mostly migrating west along the northern Carpathians towards Bohemia and the West Balkans while another one consisted mostly of members from this bigger PH908 group and it's smaller brotherly group Z17855 moved south along the eastern Carpathians towards the Eastern Roman Empire. Another group bearing the marker Y4460 mostly stayed in the old fatherland.

Velislav
09-07-2021, 05:18 PM
I do agree with this statement of yours and that was my opinion for longer now. yDNA lineages don't get numerous by chance unless the progenitor had some privileges and higher social status and this is especially important for the ancient past when the society was more conservative and patriarchal. What's striking with Y3120 is that it's descendants also had the same privileges and we see constant diversification of this lineage since TMRCA up to the early Medieval when the society was broken with the huge migrations that have taken place.

I would argue this Y3120 was a ruler, and a progenitor of a clan. He probably ruled on some territory and had higher social status, thus allowing himself to have more women than ordinary man can allow for himself. His descendants also inherited his higher social status and privileges and allowed themselves to have more women and children than ordinary men can have. This clan would have been part of a broader alliance of clans where lineages such as R-L1029, R-CTS1211 etc. would have been more common. These different clans living nearby eventually minimized the cultural and other differences between themselves and would have had united themselves when a common threat would have shown up on the horizon. Eventually, with the great disturbances in the late antiquity, it seems the men of this clan were also on the move with one group consisted mostly of members bearing the marker known as PH908 mostly migrating west along the northern Carpathians towards Bohemia and the West Balkans while another one consisted mostly of members from this bigger PH908 group and it's smaller brotherly group Z17855 moved south along the eastern Carpathians towards the Eastern Roman Empire. Another group bearing the marker Y4460 mostly stayed in the old fatherland.

Yes, this would be the only explanation for the demographic explosion set by I-Y3120. Kind of funny when thinking from the perspective that a lot of people today are living royalties - most big lineages like R1b, R1a, E-V13, I2a, etc. were 99% some sort of ancient royalties that have left millions of descendants. Sadly, we can only guess that indirectly.

ph2ter
09-12-2021, 10:14 PM
Diversity heatmap of I-CTS4002 clades (origin looks to be Baden-Wuerttemberg):

https://i.imgur.com/nXgSzVt.png