PDA

View Full Version : Origin of haplogroup I2 in Balkans



167273
03-02-2018, 05:11 PM
I“m interested in history of this european haplogroup for some time, there are many samples detected in aDna from end of Ice age to Medieval and their distribution is very different now. First possible precursor of I appeared in Pavlov and Vestonice with Gravettien, but it was negative for I1,I2. We don“t have samples in Iberia from time Ice age only El Miron sample which is female, but related to WHG. AFTER Ice age existed in samples from France,Germany and Switzerland, unfortunately most samples are bad quality for subclade identification.

But i think that Balkans was place of origin of I2. In Balkan refugium split I1 from I2 25000BC and expanded all directions with multible subclades. In western Europe appears about 14000 years ago, but expansion stops somewhere in central France and didn“t reach Iberia and Britain which remained C1a2 until neolithic.

We have L161 in mesolithic Lithuania together with pre-L233, L1286 in Scandinavia and Switzerland, in Koros, but after i check snps also in Padina and Vasileyvka. Z161 were in Iron gates, L701 probably too, becouse was found in Alpc Hungary, some CTS10100 come also to east Baltic.

Most if not all western european I2 come with farmers, becouse in Britian farmers practiclly replaced HG. i2a2-M284 and i2a1b-L161 come probably from Low countries or Germany. Neolithic and Chalcolithic iberian samples are I2a1a1-L160, I2a21b1-Z161 and I2a2a2-L1228. M26 was found in Baden culture in Hungary and L1228 in EEF CWC i7272 from Czech rep, but also in Ch.Iberia.. These probably expanded from Balkan-Carpathian region. It is same for I2a2-L38(Koros i4971 and probably Yablakovo i2529). I2c have to go same way.

167273
03-02-2018, 05:20 PM
They expaned from Balkans with Cardial ware to the west together with G2a,E-l618, r1B-v88 and c1A2-v86. To the East have to come in Mesolithic, L699 was created somewhere in Dereivka and become part of Indo-european expansion which returned to the Balkans with steppe dna. Hard say something about L1229, there is only one sample from Vatya.

Pribislav
03-02-2018, 10:43 PM
We have L161 in mesolithic Lithuania together with pre-L233, L1286 in Scandinavia and Switzerland, in Koros, but after i check snps also in Padina and Vasileyvka. Z161 were in Iron gates, L701 probably too, becouse was found in Alpc Hungary, some CTS10100 come also to east Baltic.

Could you post positive calls for those Padina and Vasilevka I2a1 samples? And have you checked I2a1 samples from Zvejnieki (I4438, I4440)?

167273
03-02-2018, 11:00 PM
I check all these samples trough bam kit and morley predictor, but in them i can“t see much snps. Maybe someone check these bams, i“m interested in it too. Padina and Vasilyevka and also two bronze age samples i7197 and i7042 are all M26-, M423-,M223- and negative for some subclades, but on morley tree there are no snps like Cts595, L1286, L1287. What is interesting that sample i2786 have at least 9 M223 negatives too.

167273
03-02-2018, 11:03 PM
I found more negatives than postives in these samples. I check only I2a2a1b CTS101000 samples from Zvejnieki and i found only there are not L701. I try look at i4438 and i4440.

About L621 is interesting that genetiker found one samples from chl.Portugal positive for L621 eq. S26486 https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ca117b/. Could be pre- L621, but false positive is more probable.

Pribislav
03-02-2018, 11:30 PM
I check all these samples trough bam kit and morley predictor, but in them i can“t see much snps. Maybe someone check these bams, i“m interested in it too. Padina and Vasilyevka and also two bronze age samples i7197 and i7042 are all M26-, M423-,M223- and negative for some subclades, but on morley tree there are no snps like Cts595, L1286, L1287. What is interesting that sample i2786 have at least 9 M223 negatives too.

Thanks! I still hope Genetiker will eventually do some of the I2 samples. Have you confirmed I7272 is L1228/PF692+, IIRC in the paper he is only Y6098? And I2529 from Yabalkovo is I2a2, have you found some L38+ calls?

167273
03-02-2018, 11:38 PM
Yablakovo is L38-, but there is still big posibility for Y10705 like i4971 from Koros. Sample i7272 is postive for L1228, but that could be false positive, becouse in the study detected other I2a2a2 snps, L1228 have to be real. I originally thought that i7272 is L1229 before study comes out. It is also CTS10100- and have no calls for CTS616,CTS9183,M284 and L1229. I asked genetiker to analyze more samples, but they didn“t responded.

J Man
03-03-2018, 12:25 AM
Good question...I think that some of the I2a present in the Balkans today could stretch all the way back to Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age communities but a good amount may have also arrived with Slavs during the Slavic migrations to that region.

167273
03-03-2018, 10:23 PM
Samples i4438 and i4440 from Latvia are both M26- M423-, so probably L1286 too.

167273
03-04-2018, 03:59 PM
I ask guy from L38 site about i2529 and i2786 samples. They responded:

I looked at the aDNA samples you suggested. This is what I found (I only looked at I2a2a(1) SNPs not at I2a2a SNPs):

In my opinion the Bulgarian Yabalkovo sample I2529 does not belong to the I-Y10705 branch (because of S2501- and S2599-), it also does not seem to appear to be I-M223 (because of P221-) May be a true I2a2* ?

Also the Hungarian sample I2786 sample does not belong to I-Y10705 (because of S2501-, S2568- and S2599-). Olalde haplotypes this sample as I2a2a.

But - I found 2 other I-Y10705 samples:

The Serbian I4915 sample (S2501+, S2599+ and L39-, L38-)
The Scottish I2977 sample from the Orkneys (S2501+, S2599+ and L39-, L40-, S2496-, S2520-)

So I was wrong with i2529, but if he is really I2a2* that could be ancestor of all I2a2 or extinct line. He belongs to early bulgarian neolithic HG origin. But sample i4915 from Hajducka vodenica is Y10705, so these subclade on Balkans after all. Also one scotish sample i2977, other one i2630 is CTS10100, rest are all M284 or L161.

George
03-04-2018, 05:25 PM
How does one differentiate between the WHG and EHG components in a contemporary I2 haplogroup individual?

Szigmund
02-06-2020, 11:08 AM
So... nothing new? :D

Pribislav
02-06-2020, 12:23 PM
So... nothing new? :D

The earliest I2-Din sample so far, albeit still medieval, has been found in Serbia. It's from the medieval layer of the Gomolava necropolis (most famous for it's Vinča culture layers), dated to the second half of 9th century. Technically, he's I2-CTS4002 from his ISOGG assignment, but I have no doubt he'll turn out to be below I2-Y3120, given the period and location.

Szigmund
09-07-2021, 06:22 AM
Any toughts on this article?

https://phylogeographer.com/the-different-paths-of-the-sons-of-slavic-chieftain-i2-y3120-who-lived-200-bc/

Velislav
09-07-2021, 11:06 AM
Any toughts on this article?

https://phylogeographer.com/the-different-paths-of-the-sons-of-slavic-chieftain-i2-y3120-who-lived-200-bc/

I've heard this Celtic theory about I-Y3120 - while this is very possible, I think however this is also very pointless to delve in. At the time when the children of Y3120 are already numerous and enter history, they are already Slavs. Celtic or not, I think it is very likely that we are dealing with an ancient royal bloodline due to the rapid expansion of that lineage in the next 400 years after Y3120.

Aspar
09-07-2021, 01:07 PM
I've heard this Celtic theory about I-Y3120 - while this is very possible, I think however this is also very pointless to delve in. At the time when the children of Y3120 are already numerous and enter history, they are already Slavs. Celtic or not, I think it is very likely that we are dealing with an ancient royal bloodline due to the rapid expansion of that lineage in the next 400 years after Y3120.

I do agree with this statement of yours and that was my opinion for longer now. yDNA lineages don't get numerous by chance unless the progenitor had some privileges and higher social status and this is especially important for the ancient past when the society was more conservative and patriarchal. What's striking with Y3120 is that it's descendants also had the same privileges and we see constant diversification of this lineage since TMRCA up to the early Medieval when the society was broken with the huge migrations that have taken place.

I would argue this Y3120 was a ruler, and a progenitor of a clan. He probably ruled on some territory and had higher social status, thus allowing himself to have more women than ordinary man can allow for himself. His descendants also inherited his higher social status and privileges and allowed themselves to have more women and children than ordinary men can have. This clan would have been part of a broader alliance of clans where lineages such as R-L1029, R-CTS1211 etc. would have been more common. These different clans living nearby eventually minimized the cultural and other differences between themselves and would have had united themselves when a common threat would have shown up on the horizon. Eventually, with the great disturbances in the late antiquity, it seems the men of this clan were also on the move with one group consisted mostly of members bearing the marker known as PH908 mostly migrating west along the northern Carpathians towards Bohemia and the West Balkans while another one consisted mostly of members from this bigger PH908 group and it's smaller brotherly group Z17855 moved south along the eastern Carpathians towards the Eastern Roman Empire. Another group bearing the marker Y4460 mostly stayed in the old fatherland.

Velislav
09-07-2021, 05:18 PM
I do agree with this statement of yours and that was my opinion for longer now. yDNA lineages don't get numerous by chance unless the progenitor had some privileges and higher social status and this is especially important for the ancient past when the society was more conservative and patriarchal. What's striking with Y3120 is that it's descendants also had the same privileges and we see constant diversification of this lineage since TMRCA up to the early Medieval when the society was broken with the huge migrations that have taken place.

I would argue this Y3120 was a ruler, and a progenitor of a clan. He probably ruled on some territory and had higher social status, thus allowing himself to have more women than ordinary man can allow for himself. His descendants also inherited his higher social status and privileges and allowed themselves to have more women and children than ordinary men can have. This clan would have been part of a broader alliance of clans where lineages such as R-L1029, R-CTS1211 etc. would have been more common. These different clans living nearby eventually minimized the cultural and other differences between themselves and would have had united themselves when a common threat would have shown up on the horizon. Eventually, with the great disturbances in the late antiquity, it seems the men of this clan were also on the move with one group consisted mostly of members bearing the marker known as PH908 mostly migrating west along the northern Carpathians towards Bohemia and the West Balkans while another one consisted mostly of members from this bigger PH908 group and it's smaller brotherly group Z17855 moved south along the eastern Carpathians towards the Eastern Roman Empire. Another group bearing the marker Y4460 mostly stayed in the old fatherland.

Yes, this would be the only explanation for the demographic explosion set by I-Y3120. Kind of funny when thinking from the perspective that a lot of people today are living royalties - most big lineages like R1b, R1a, E-V13, I2a, etc. were 99% some sort of ancient royalties that have left millions of descendants. Sadly, we can only guess that indirectly.

ph2ter
09-12-2021, 10:14 PM
Diversity heatmap of I-CTS4002 clades (origin looks to be Baden-Wuerttemberg):

https://i.imgur.com/nXgSzVt.png

Szigmund
02-02-2022, 01:57 PM
Check this article:
http://www.genealogywise.com/profiles/blogs/haplogroup-i2a1-l621-cts10228-y3120

ph2ter
02-02-2022, 02:48 PM
Check this article:
http://www.genealogywise.com/profiles/blogs/haplogroup-i2a1-l621-cts10228-y3120
What is this. Vlach origin theory?
The author looks like Balkan autochtonist, but with slightly moderate attitude.
Doubtful map from Eupedia which has one of the maximums of Y3120 in Muntenia is his main argument.

vasil
02-02-2022, 03:13 PM
The whole Y3120 local Balkan origin theory is at this point completely over but there are people like this that are never going to accept the reality of the sutuation, I have dealt with Bulgarians who wont give up their obsesion with the steppe which is pretty much the same situation. There is no amount of facts that can change the opinion of these types of people, they have made up their mind and will bend the fabric of space in order to justify their beliefs making them a lost cause in my mind.

ShpataEMadhe
03-23-2022, 08:55 PM
The whole Y3120 local Balkan origin theory is at this point completely over but there are people like this that are never going to accept the reality of the sutuation, I have dealt with Bulgarians who wont give up their obsesion with the steppe which is pretty much the same situation. There is no amount of facts that can change the opinion of these types of people, they have made up their mind and will bend the fabric of space in order to justify their beliefs making them a lost cause in my mind.

Best to wait for more ancient dna before determining

venustas
03-23-2022, 10:01 PM
Why is it so impossible for a subclade of 12 to be from the Balkans I2 used to dominate all of Europe? Perhaps at one time or another it was in the Balkan even if it strayed and came back? I don't know a lot about I2. I don't care if it's local to the Balkans I just don't see why it's so hard for I2 to be indigenous to any part of it's prehistoric range. Perhaps one guy out of many had the main subclade of I2. I doubt R1a is from the Balkans though. R

Fluted Columns
03-23-2022, 11:02 PM
Why is it so impossible for a subclade of 12 to be from the Balkans I2 used to dominate all of Europe? Perhaps at one time or another it was in the Balkan even if it strayed and came back? I don't know a lot about I2. I don't care if it's local to the Balkans I just don't see why it's so hard for I2 to be indigenous to any part of it's prehistoric range. Perhaps one guy out of many had the main subclade of I2. I doubt R1a is from the Balkans though. R

Because, EEF in the balkans were largely I2 poor. Unlike the rest of Europe balkan-carpathian EEFs never had a massive resurgence of WHG and thus remained I2 poor during the neolithic. Not to mention that all extant I-M423 (besides I-Y13336) is based in Western Europe and aDNA finds of I-M423 show this trend during the neolithic as well.

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:06 AM
Because, EEF in the balkans were largely I2 poor. Unlike the rest of Europe balkan-carpathian EEFs never had a massive resurgence of WHG and thus remained I2 poor during the neolithic. Not to mention that all extant I-M423 (besides I-Y13336) is based in Western Europe and aDNA finds of I-M423 show this trend during the neolithic as well.

Very little adna has been found in south europe so far, it may have survived in small pockets that havent been sourced yet

ph2ter
03-24-2022, 10:31 AM
Very little adna has been found in south europe so far, it may have survived in small pockets that havent been sourced yet
Yes, maybe they were hiding in Balkan caves from Neolithic to Medieval times.
If you want to believe in such fairy-tales, just continue on.

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:44 AM
Yes, maybe they were hiding in Balkan caves from Neolithic to Medieval times.
If you want to believe in such fairy-tales, just continue on.

I didnt mention neolithic

Anyway, what else can we link "dinaric race" to if not i2a? It cant be linked to r1a because that is far more common in russia and east slavs

Only other option is v13 but plenty v13 is found in places like greece and even italy where dinaric race isnt as prominent

ph2ter
03-24-2022, 01:54 PM
I didnt mention neolithic

Anyway, what else can we link "dinaric race" to if not i2a? It cant be linked to r1a because that is far more common in russia and east slavs

Only other option is v13 but plenty v13 is found in places like greece and even italy where dinaric race isnt as prominent
You can try with J2b.

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 03:46 PM
You can try with J2b.

If you mean j2b l283, it is nearly extinct in most of the areas that are labelled as "dinaric". Croatia has 3% l283 or less

ph2ter
03-24-2022, 06:08 PM
If you mean j2b l283, it is nearly extinct in most of the areas that are labelled as "dinaric". Croatia has 3% l283 or less
Illyrians have been in majority J2b. At least in Iron Age.
Autosomal Dinaric characteristics have been inherited via female lines according to the current state of ancient genetic research.
If I2a-Din was present in the Balkans in Roman times then we would have it today from Spain and Britain to Levant. That is not the case which is clear indication that I2a-Din was not present on the territory of Roman empire in Roman times.

Kelmendasi
03-24-2022, 06:47 PM
Anyway, what else can we link "dinaric race" to if not i2a? It cant be linked to r1a because that is far more common in russia and east slavs
Could you provide evidence that such a "race" even exists? Research is moving on from attributing phenotypical characteristics to distinct racial groups. And even if these races do truly exist, the Dinaric race phenotype is noted across older anthropological literature as being found in greatest frequencies, and in the most extreme forms, among the Albanians of the northern highlands. A group which is almost entirely lacking in I2a-Y3120 (currently there are no Y3120 samples from Malėsia on Rrėnjėt).

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 09:25 PM
Illyrians have been in majority J2b. At least in Iron Age.
Autosomal Dinaric characteristics have been inherited via female lines according to the current state of ancient genetic research.
If I2a-Din was present in the Balkans in Roman times then we would have it today from Spain and Britain to Levant. That is not the case which is clear indication that I2a-Din was not present on the territory of Roman empire in Roman times.

It doesnt have to be in spain nor britain if it was wiped out by the romans and what was remaining hid in mountains

Not sure why you bring up illyrians, i said dinaric race. Illyrians were short anyway

ph2ter
03-24-2022, 10:20 PM
It doesnt have to be in spain nor britain if it was wiped out by the romans and what was remaining hid in mountains

Not sure why you bring up illyrians, i said dinaric race. Illyrians were short anyway
What?
You have some theory about Dinaric race hiding in the Balkan mountains in Roman time. What is wrong with you? Where did you get that?
Did the Romans mention somewhere these hiding I2a Dinaroids?

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:21 PM
Could you provide evidence that such a "race" even exists? Research is moving on from attributing phenotypical characteristics to distinct racial groups. And even if these races do truly exist, the Dinaric race phenotype is noted across older anthropological literature as being found in greatest frequencies, and in the most extreme forms, among the Albanians of the northern highlands. A group which is almost entirely lacking in I2a-Y3120 (currently there are no Y3120 samples from Malėsia on Rrėnjėt).

Im just discussing dinaric race because it is something that has been studied in the past, whether it actually exists or not is another matter but just a bit of fun

If you look at bosnia, that is the "peak" of dinaric yet bosnia has near 0% j2b l283. Bosnia also has highest frequency of i2a

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/cms/asset/54ec562f-768f-4f2e-85b8-d9fc8c4c6d85/rsos161054f02.jpg

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:23 PM
What?
You have some theory about Dinaric race hiding in the Balkan mountains in Roman time. What is wrong with you? Where did you get that?
Did the Romans mention somewhere these hiding I2a Dinaroids?

This doesnt make sense, first of all i am speculating. Secondly, why would romans mention i2a or dinaroids when dna testing didnt exist nor the term dinaric

ph2ter
03-24-2022, 10:25 PM
This doesnt make sense, first of all i am speculating. Secondly, why would romans mention i2a or dinaroids when dna testing didnt exist nor the term dinaric
I am trying to show you that your speculations are absurd. Stop with this.

Luso
03-24-2022, 10:38 PM
Could you provide evidence that such a "race" even exists? Research is moving on from attributing phenotypical characteristics to distinct racial groups. And even if these races do truly exist, the Dinaric race phenotype is noted across older anthropological literature as being found in greatest frequencies, and in the most extreme forms, among the Albanians of the northern highlands. A group which is almost entirely lacking in I2a-Y3120 (currently there are no Y3120 samples from Malėsia on Rrėnjėt).

Yes, I completely agree. Even within the most homogenous groups in Europe and other parts of the world there is a good chunk of phenotype variation. We see it in our families, we see it in other people and families. In yours and my ethnicity alone, we are pretty much all genetically similar to our populations and yet can look widely different, and it's beautiful. So I think phenotype shouldn't be too focused on in terms of associations to dna.

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:40 PM
I am trying to show you that your speculations are absurd. Stop with this.

"Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated 18, but this changed in Viminacium where inhumation became common suggesting a high degree of Romanization of the local society."

Then v13 and i2a started to appear....

Kelmendasi
03-24-2022, 10:44 PM
Im just discussing dinaric race because it is something that has been studied in the past, whether it actually exists or not is another matter but just a bit of fun

If you look at bosnia, that is the "peak" of dinaric yet bosnia has near 0% j2b l283. Bosnia also has highest frequency of i2a

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/cms/asset/54ec562f-768f-4f2e-85b8-d9fc8c4c6d85/rsos161054f02.jpg
Just because it has been studied in the past does not make it viable in modern times. The fact is that these concepts are no longer considered scientific or discussed in regards to these topics. So discussing connections between I2a-Y3120 and the Dinaric race is pointless as there is no actual basis. Also your map does not prove that Bosnia and Herzegovina is the peak of the Dinaric race, it just shows height. From Carleton S. Coon’s The Mountains of Giants: A Racial and Cultural Study of the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs (1950):

Today the Dinaric concentration lies in the Adriatic Alps, with a smaller nucleus in the Carpathians. Authors who published before 1929 thought that the very center would be found in northern Albania.

You are arguing for a lost cause here, all evidence points to I2a-Y3120 being Slavic in the Balkans. It is not Illyrian, Thracian, or Dacian.

ShpataEMadhe
03-24-2022, 10:47 PM
Just because it has been studied in the past does not make it viable in modern times. The fact is that these concepts are no longer considered scientific or discussed in regards to these topics. So discussing connections between I2a-Y3120 and the Dinaric race is pointless as there is no actual basis. Also your map does not prove that Bosnia and Herzegovina is the peak of the Dinaric race, it just shows height. From Carleton S. Coon’s The Mountains of Giants: A Racial and Cultural Study of the North Albanian Mountain Ghegs (1950):

Today the Dinaric concentration lies in the Adriatic Alps, with a smaller nucleus in the Carpathians. Authors who published before 1929 thought that the very center would be found in northern Albania.

You are arguing for a lost cause here, all evidence points to I2a-Y3120 being Slavic in the Balkans. It is not Illyrian, Thracian, or Dacian.

Maybe north albania is included but you cant link dinaric to j2b l283 because it is nearly extinct in bosnia

Kelmendasi
03-24-2022, 10:48 PM
Maybe north albania is included but you cant link dinaric to j2b l283 because it is nearly extinct in bosnia
You cannot link it to anything because there is no Dinaric race.

Riverman
03-24-2022, 11:13 PM
Besides, some people give haplogroups too much of an importance. Think of it like we think about surnames: We all know that people which can be close to 100 % from a specific ethnicity can have "foreign surnames", based on a single male ancestor they had 400-600 years ago, sometimes even longer, sometimes shorter. Is someone with a Slavic surname, originating from a specific Slavic ancestor, but which family lives as Albanians among Albanians "less of an Albanian" than someone with a typical Albanian surname, but which ancestors are 3/4 non-Albanian?
There are strictly patrilinear, agnatic societies. Probably the Indoeuropeans were such a society, probably it helped them to expand and integrate foreign women, because their contribution could be largely ignored in a clan. But genetically, its very clear that this doesn't work out. We have groups of people which only remaining genetic signal, after many, many generations of admixture with locals, is the male lineages. Everything else is local. Now it wasn't that extreme in the Balkans, both the Thracians, Illyrians, Germanics and Slavs had an impact, autosomally as well, especially the latter. But it is the same principle.

Even more, some phenotypes might be, in their modern constellation, no older than the haplogroups in question. Phenotypes both due to selection and environmental causes can change fairly quickly. The autosomal total profile might not reflect that, haplogroups being usually almost completely decoupled from it.

Just fly over the world and look at which people carry haplogroup R1. You will find R1 carriers in practically all world regions and within all phenotypes and that phenomenon is not that new, its many thousands of years old.

Luso
03-24-2022, 11:39 PM
Besides, some people give haplogroups too much of an importance. Think of it like we think about surnames: We all know that people which can be close to 100 % from a specific ethnicity can have "foreign surnames", based on a single male ancestor they had 400-600 years ago, sometimes even longer, sometimes shorter. Is someone with a Slavic surname, originating from a specific Slavic ancestor, but which family lives as Albanians among Albanians "less of an Albanian" than someone with a typical Albanian surname, but which ancestors are 3/4 non-Albanian?
There are strictly patrilinear, agnatic societies. Probably the Indoeuropeans were such a society, probably it helped them to expand and integrate foreign women, because their contribution could be largely ignored in a clan. But genetically, its very clear that this doesn't work out. We have groups of people which only remaining genetic signal, after many, many generations of admixture with locals, is the male lineages. Everything else is local. Now it wasn't that extreme in the Balkans, both the Thracians, Illyrians, Germanics and Slavs had an impact, autosomally as well, especially the latter. But it is the same principle.

Even more, some phenotypes might be, in their modern constellation, no older than the haplogroups in question. Phenotypes both due to selection and environmental causes can change fairly quickly. The autosomal total profile might not reflect that, haplogroups being usually almost completely decoupled from it.

Just fly over the world and look at which people carry haplogroup R1. You will find R1 carriers in practically all world regions and within all phenotypes and that phenomenon is not that new, its many thousands of years old.

Good point, Riverman. I was surprised, because I actually see a lot of people especially on genetic online spaces putting over-exaggerated amounts of importance on their y-dna and mtdna in terms of their modern identity. In my point of view, it's okay to identify a little bit to your y-dna especially if its a common lineage in your modern nation, but do not exclude others if they do not fit that mold! Particularly, I've recently seen this on North African groups online with people saying a person is a Berber vs arab/ other north african heritages based off if they have E-m183, or not and completely ignoring that person's known identity + autosomal results and how dna works. These markers are so old, they probably predate what we know of modern Berbers, arabs, and all other more modern types of groups. So, I do not know why this is of such importance honestly - I guess for groups that are trying to maintain a nationalistic image, or are fighting for their group to be recognized by others... but I don't think this is a honest method of doing so. Of course, I've also seen this way of thinking within many european populations, especially when someone gets a clade that is metrically rare / potentially not found often compared to more common ones (ie. not getting r1b, r1a, or I1, and instead getting a SSA E1b clade as a full european). In most cases, these individuals will absolutely not score ethnically differently than the majority that do get the common markers.

Riverman
03-25-2022, 01:21 AM
Good point, Riverman. I was surprised, because I actually see a lot of people especially on genetic online spaces putting over-exaggerated amounts of importance on their y-dna and mtdna in terms of their modern identity. In my point of view, it's okay to identify a little bit to your y-dna especially if its a common lineage in your modern nation, but do not exclude others if they do not fit that mold! Particularly, I've recently seen this on North African groups online with people saying a person is a Berber vs arab/ other north african heritages based off if they have E-m183, or not and completely ignoring that person's known identity + autosomal results and how dna works. These markers are so old, they probably predate what we know of modern Berbers, arabs, and all other more modern types of groups. So, I do not know why this is of such importance honestly - I guess for groups that are trying to maintain a nationalistic image, or are fighting for their group to be recognized by others... but I don't think this is a honest method of doing so. Of course, I've also seen this way of thinking within many european populations, especially when someone gets a clade that is metrically rare / potentially not found often compared to more common ones (ie. not getting r1b, r1a, or I1, and instead getting a SSA E1b clade as a full european). In most cases, these individuals will absolutely not score ethnically differently than the majority that do get the common markers.

Absolutely. But even if we would look at those haplogroups from the ethnic perspective, its viable only in specific cases. Most of the time, its the subclades which matter more than the haplogroups. Some haplogroups moved out to another area, sometimes even for thousands of years, just to come back to where they came from originally. With which region do you associate it then? To their presence at 11.000 yBP or 7.000 yBP or probably 3.000 yBP or even further back in time or more recent times? Any paternal lineage can only be associated with a specific region or people in a specific time frame. And this means, with a specific stage of its development. And that's about subclades and branching events. Sometime in the future we can say when a haplogroup branched where and how long its branches were staying together or split immediately in more detail.

capsian
03-29-2022, 04:10 PM
Good point, Riverman. I was surprised, because I actually see a lot of people especially on genetic online spaces putting over-exaggerated amounts of importance on their y-dna and mtdna in terms of their modern identity. In my point of view, it's okay to identify a little bit to your y-dna especially if its a common lineage in your modern nation, but do not exclude others if they do not fit that mold! Particularly, I've recently seen this on North African groups online with people saying a person is a Berber vs arab/ other north african heritages based off if they have E-m183, or not and completely ignoring that person's known identity + autosomal results and how dna works. These markers are so old, they probably predate what we know of modern Berbers, arabs, and all other more modern types of groups. So, I do not know why this is of such importance honestly - I guess for groups that are trying to maintain a nationalistic image, or are fighting for their group to be recognized by others... but I don't think this is a honest method of doing so. Of course, I've also seen this way of thinking within many european populations, especially when someone gets a clade that is metrically rare / potentially not found often compared to more common ones (ie. not getting r1b, r1a, or I1, and instead getting a SSA E1b clade as a full european). In most cases, these individuals will absolutely not score ethnically differently than the majority that do get the common markers.

Autosomal DNA is very important also
98% in DNA its belong to Autosomal
but unfortunately this role is being ignored Autosomal

felipesc25
04-10-2022, 03:14 AM
I2a in Dinaric Area has a large diversity of clades, so we cant say that all of them came with Slavs, but at least some of them.
We had the presence of one I-CTS10228(ancestor of I-PH908) in Dalmatia, during the Bronze to Iron Age(2950-3450 ybp), and we can assume that some clades stay alivied from the Ancient Illyrians, in the balkanic blood. Some of them could been absorbed from Ancient Slavs before the migration, like the I-PH908, but it is a minority of the I2a clades from Balkan Peninsula.
Also, we had the Justinian Plague, that took the highest proportion of the population of the B.P during the Early Medieval Time, so some pre-slavic clades could well been more successful cause of massive deaths, maybe related to some "illyrio-roman" high class dude, not just cause of Royalty or chief clans in slavic population(some could, but mostly should been R1a).
IMO the massive presence of I2a in Dinaric was explain for multiple factors, some slavic should had it, some pre slavic Illyrio, Paennonians and Vlachs indeed, also some exclusively lines could been more successful cause of the Plague and lower population density , that succeeds the clash of the Roman Civilization, and privileged the survival of the high class and better fed pop . We could account some possible Gaul influence in this"cake".

felipesc25
04-10-2022, 03:39 AM
It is interesting cause if you see R1a clades in the Balkans, you could see the same into slavic countries, usually they don't have that distance between them, however in I2, mostly seen into East/West Slavs and Balkans were different branches, that have the same ancestor between 1600-2000 years ago, it could been an example of absorption from pre-slavic populations, even in the East and West Slavic areas.
Also, later migrations could happened. I saw a Russian sub-clade that has the TMRCA from 350 years ago.
For me, it is clear, Slavs in migration period had some degree of I2, but it was lower than modern day southern slavs, due the fact that pre slavic should had it and some founder effect could happened(even in pre slavic pops, considering the justinian plague).
Slavs usually absorbed other populations, after conquest them, so it isn't unrealistic to assume it.
Also, trough about Vlachs couldn't been to absurd, a founder effect could happened before even the slavs arrived, from a local noble, with Imperial_roman and paleo-balkanic origins.