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TigerMW
09-25-2013, 01:45 AM
What about the Basques? They have a lot of DF27, specifically the N-S people including M153. They also have L21. They also have I-M23.

I've read a paper on the Basques that I thought was interesting. The author posts on another forum. I'm not a linguist so I don't understand the whole thing and I'm not sure if I understand creole versus not, but he makes the case that IE has impacted pre-Basque at its root.


"I'm the author of "Evidence for Basque as an Indo-European Language", published in The Journal of Indo-European Studies - Volume 41 (http://www.jiesonline.com/issues/).

If you read it, I'll be glad to receive your feedback via this topic.

You can find more information about me, as well as my papers (or excerpts thereof) here: http://independent.academia.edu/GianfrancoForni.

Thank you

Gianfranco Forni"
....

"Dear group members,


let me try and summarize what's been going on with this topic so far. Since I posted my first message over two weeks ago, I received few replies. The most frequent ones are fairly weak criticisms, by D. G. Kilday, mostly based on:

- a rejection of key parts of Michelena's and Trask's commonly accepted internal reconstruction of Pre-Basque (it would be interesting to be pointed to some published material where such rejection is supported by some systematic evidence);

- an analysis of a very small percentage of my etymologies, which are either refuted on various grounds (incl. the critic's unorthodox reconstruction of Pre-Basque), or dismissed as "loans" when the similarity with other IE terms is too evident to be otherwise dismissed.

Comments by other fellow linguists would be very welcome.

Gianfranco Forni"

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/cybalist/conversations/topics/71283

"Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the first Venturers to the Vikings" by Jean Manco, p.147

""The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors."

I think the contact zone reference is to the Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya herder contact zone. I guess I should double check that.

I'm not at all saying that "Paleo"-Basque is Western European. It may very well come from the Caucasus or SE Europe. I just have no problem with either of these scenarios for R1b's involvement in it:
1) Multiple introgressions of R1b-L11 subclades over a period of time, none of which tipped the language usage scale each individually
2) A castrophic introgression of R1b-L11 in the pre-Basque cultures but in a form that was fleeting. I guess you could say largely absentee fathers.
3) An R1b-L11 splinter group helped form a non-IE culture or IE-like culture (if you believe in Gianfranco)

They are low in the Gedrosia autosomal component, which is interesting. I don't know what to make of that.

TigerMW
09-25-2013, 02:13 AM
"Ancestral Journeys The Peopling of Europe from the first Venturers to the Vikings" by Jean Manco, p.147

""The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors."

I think the contact zone reference is to the Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya herder contact zone. I guess I should double check that.
...

Jean Manco, p.121.
"Euskara does appear to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words related to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, ...
...
The collapse of the Copper Age cultures of the Balkans, apparently due to climate change around 4000 BC, could provide the context for the spread westwards of refugees looking for literally greener pastures. A common origin in the Balkans might explain the the preceived similarity of Paelo-Sardinian and Basque.
...
Yet if Paleo-Basque came from somewhere near the PIE homeland, it may make a great deal of sense."

To be fair, Jean provides a strong caveat,
"The Basques remain something of a mystery. Only further study of ancient DNA seems likely to resolve it."

The irony of a some kind of origination of Paelo-Basque near the PIE homeland is that implies the split of at least DF27, if not DF27's Z220, from the rest of P312, including U152 and L21 must have happened far to the east. I don't have a problem with that, but I'll have to think about it a bit.

Fire Haired
09-25-2013, 03:04 AM
The Basques speak a non-Indo-European language which might have its origins in the Coper Age Balkans, in contact with PIE (see Chapter 7). If there was a pool of R1b1a somewhere in that contact zone, that could explain why the Basques have as much R1b1a2 as their Indo-European neighbors

U got to be kidding me. Sure it is possible proto Indo European speakers were in that zone during the copper age and may have been very high in R1b1a2a L23!!! Sure it is a possibility I don't know any strong evidence that the Basque language is from copper age Balkans. But that would not explain why they are so high in R1b1a2 M269 she is generalizing their subclade in under western European r1b1a2a1a L11 like what Swedish R1b is. It is then under a subclade after that which was probably spread with italo Celtic languages R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116 then their in another subclade under that R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 then there under even deeper subclades mainly very deep M153 and SRY2627. So no way did they get those while in the Balkans and separately from Indo European western Europeans. Since Basque and proto Basque or whatever speakers had been surrounded by R1b Df27 and R1b L21 Celts I think since 3,500-4,500ybp that could be were they get their Indo European barrel words but I am not a linguistic. Also not a surprise they are so high in R1b S116 Celts can adopt native language no big deal. It seems they did that in eastern Iberia too and western France since actulley the language family Basque are apart of used to be spoken in almost all of the west coast of France. If anything I would think it has a root in pre Celtic people in France not Iberia so not in the same family as Iberian languages.

TigerMW
09-25-2013, 04:51 AM
U got to be kidding me. Sure it is possible proto Indo European speakers were in that zone during the copper age and may have been very high in R1b1a2a L23!!! Sure it is a possibility I don't know any strong evidence that the Basque language is from copper age Balkans. .....

There are a lot of speculations on the origins of the pre-Basque language but no one really knows. I really recommend you read Jean's book. You'll see that she is not claiming any high level of certainty about the origin of the Basques... quite the opposite so I don't understand your incredulous reponse. There are many things to read about the Basque languages and theories on it. It's got to be hard for you to comment if you don't do the reading.

Actulley I never read and I have always hated reading since I could read. That is why I hate English class I uselly don't read the books I just get an idea from listing to people in class in clip notes which works out.... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1350-Spread-of-R1b1a2a1a-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-in-western-Europe&p=14387&viewfull=1#post14387

Your postings seem to always go back to a heavy focus on your theme of "Spread of Germano Italo Celtic" so I'm going to move your posts that focus on that over to your thread where it is on topic: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1350-Spread-of-R1b1a2a1a-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-in-western-Europe

Dubhthach
09-25-2013, 08:08 AM
Some of the research about placenames in the Spanish basque country points to them having Celtic origins. It's been suggested that a process of Vascoisation happened in the period after the fall of Roman Empire eg. Migration of Basque (Proto-Basque?) speakers out of Aquitaine into North-East Spain where over time assimilated the local population. In such a scenario it wouldn't be surprising that you have haplgroups associated with IE speakers (Celtic in this case) showing up among Basques.

There are clear loanwords in Basque that have Celtic origins. The word for bear for example (if I remember correctly).

Webb
09-25-2013, 11:38 AM
Is anyone aware of which subclades of L21 are found amongst the basque? As Mike mentioned we have M153 and now it appears DF81 is amongst the basque populations, SRY2627 is found in Aquitane and is generally found throughout the Pyrenees. These represent DF27, but what about L21. I have not found a study to date that lists those specific clades. Mike are there any basque testers in the L21 projects?

rms2
09-25-2013, 11:55 AM
Is anyone aware of which subclades of L21 are found amongst the basque? As Mike mentioned we have M153 and now it appears DF81 is amongst the basque populations, SRY2627 is found in Aquitane and is generally found throughout the Pyrenees. These represent DF27, but what about L21. I have not found a study to date that lists those specific clades. Mike are there any basque testers in the L21 projects?

We have some in the R-L21 Plus Project who belong to an Iberian L21 cluster that I stumbled across a few years ago. They have tested L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534.

Real quick, one example is Amuchástegui, kit N93033.

I don't know of any other L21 subclades found among the Basques.

We also have some Bretons who are Z2534+, as well, but they do not belong to the same haplotype cluster.

TigerMW
09-25-2013, 01:12 PM
We have some in the R-L21 Plus Project who belong to an Iberian L21 cluster that I stumbled across a few years ago. They have tested L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534.

Real quick, one example is Amuchástegui, kit N93033.

I don't know of any other L21 subclades found among the Basques.

We also have some Bretons who are Z2534+, as well, but they do not belong to the same haplotype cluster.

Below is the main STR based cluster that appears to be Basque oriented. Richard found them a couple of years ago. They are not that old of a cluster. L21 in the Basques does not appear to be old relative to L21 in general. There is no one in this variety that I can find outside of Spain.

fN93033 Amuchástegui R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534 253-2534-1211 Spain, Basque Country, Biscay, Lea-Artibai, Markina
f58857 Archuleta R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain, Basque Country, Guipuzcoa, Eibar
f128223 Calzada R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
f66434 Davila R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain
f82247 Garcia R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
f152157 Lopez R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
f67597 Robles R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain
f167768 Romero R1b-P312>L21 253-2534-1211 Spain
f46334 Sampedro R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1211 Spain, Cantabria, Matienzo

There is another decent sized Spanish cluster but they don't appear to be Basque.

y88NXH De Herrera zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain, Canaries
fN5681 De la Puerta R1b-P312>L21 z9919-A-SP Spain, Andalucía, Huelva, Cumbres Mayores
f50251 Delgado zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain, Canary Islands, Tenerife
f40955 Leal zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain
yJ45FQ Lopez zzL21suspect z9919-A-SP Spain
fE2160 López Salgado R1b-P312>L21 z9919-A-SP Spain, Valencia, Alicante, Aldurfe (Lugo)

My guess is the L21 in the Basques is some kind of latter Celtic (way after the Beakers) intrusion. Maybe they were Gauls of some kind since we do see some of the Z2534+ people in France.

rms2
09-25-2013, 04:31 PM
. . .

My guess is the L21 in the Basques is some kind of latter Celtic (way after the Beakers) intrusion. Maybe they were Gauls of some kind since we do see some of the Z2534+ people in France.

I believe that is right. It goes back to what Paul (Dubhthach) said a couple of posts back about the Vascoization of some Celts in northern Spain

TigerMW
09-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Here is something else from Jean's book, "Ancestral Journeys...".

"One genome-wide study of Spanish Basques did not find them particularly differentiated from other Iberian populations.
...
The French and Spanish Basques do form a homogenous group, which can be distinguished from non-Spanish European populations (such as French and Sardinian) to roughly the same degree that these populations can be distinguished from each other.
Still, they are modern people, not an ancient one miraculously preserved."

I think her conclusion hits it on the head.

I still think there is something important here to glean, though. Jean speaks of the Basques and the Sardinians. Essentially, they are island remnants of something different. They are NOT entirely different from Europeans in general but they have some anomalies worth noting.

ArmandoR1b
09-25-2013, 09:33 PM
Here is something else from Jean's book, "Ancestral Journeys...".

"One genome-wide study of Spanish Basques did not find them particularly differentiated from other Iberian populations.
...
The French and Spanish Basques do form a homogenous group, which can be distinguished from non-Spanish European populations (such as French and Sardinian) to roughly the same degree that these populations can be distinguished from each other.
Still, they are modern people, not an ancient one miraculously preserved."

I think her conclusion hits it on the head.

I still think there is something important here to glean, though. Jean speaks of the Basques and the Sardinians. Essentially, they are island remnants of something different. They are NOT entirely different from Europeans in general but they have some anomalies worth noting.

Hello Mike. My great-grandfather was from the Basque Country.

Here are Dienekes’ posts on the Basques. Most of these are links to studies that since 2006 they have stated that my ancestors weren't so different from other Europeans.


January 22, 2006
Ancient Basques were not isolated (mtDNA)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/01/ancient-basques-were-not-isolated.html
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Jan 19; [Epub ahead of print]
Insights into the "isolation" of the Basques: mtDNA lineages from the historical site of Aldaieta (6th-7th centuries AD).
Alzualde A, Izagirre N, Alonso S, Alonso A, Albarran C, Azkarate A, de la Rua C.
he results, fully authenticated by means of diverse criteria (analysis of duplicates, replication in an independent laboratory, quantification of target DNA, and sequencing and cloning of polymerase chain reaction products), suggest that Aldaieta largely consists of autochthonous individuals who shared common funereal customs with the late Ancient North Pyrenean cemeteries of Western Europe (the Reihengraberfelder), a cultural influence possibly accompanied by a certain genetic flow.

May 08, 2009
Basques are not a genetic isolate
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05/basques-are-not-genetic-isolate.html
This paper shows that Basques, who are viewed by some as a relatively isolated remnant of the European Paleolithic population, do not in fact show any signs of being a genetic isolate
European Journal of Human Genetics doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.69
Isolated populations as treasure troves in genetic epidemiology: the case of the Basques
Paolo Garagnani et al.


February 17, 2010
Basques not genetically distinct from other Iberians
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/02/basques-not-genetically-distinct-from.html
Human Genetics doi:10.1007/s00439-010-0798-3
A genome-wide survey does not show the genetic distinctiveness of Basques
Hafid Laayouni et al.
Abstract
Basques are a cultural isolate, and, according to mainly allele frequencies of classical polymorphisms, also a genetic isolate. We investigated the differentiation of Spanish Basques from the rest of Iberian populations by means of a dense, genome-wide SNP array. We found that F ST distances between Spanish Basques and other populations were similar to those between pairs of non-Basque populations. The same result is found in a PCA of individuals, showing a general distinction between Iberians and other South Europeans independently of being Basques. Pathogen-mediated natural selection may be responsible for the high differentiation previously reported for Basques at very specific genes such as ABO, RH, and HLA. Thus, Basques cannot be considered a genetic outlier under a general genome scope and interpretations on their origin may have to be revised.

June 02, 2010
Genetic distinctiveness of Basques (?)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/06/genetic-distinctiveness-of-basques.html
This paper purports to affirm the genetic distinctiveness of Basques. However, they compare Basques with non-Iberians, so their claim only affirms their distinctiveness from non-Iberians, rather than their distinctiveness within Iberia itself.
So, I don't see any reason to doubt the findings of Laayouni et al. (2010) so far. If the authors of the current paper had carried out an analysis in which they included non-Basque Iberians, as well as geographically appropriate French (it is not clear how many HGDP French are from Basque-inhabited regions), then they would have a leg to stand on with respect to the alleged distinctiveness of Basques.
Moreover, their claim that their paper reaffirms Li et al. (2008) and refutes Laayouni et al. (2010) is similarly suspect, as Li et al. (2008) did not study Basques in the context of their Iberian neighbors.
What this paper shows is that French and Spanish Basques form a unit vis a vis other Europeans, but this does not justify the attack about the alleged shortfalls of Laayouni et al. In short it is difficult to see how to see how this paper's inflated claims have passed peer review.


March 13, 2012
Pre-Roman genetic structure has persisted in modern Basque populations
Mol Biol Evol (2012)doi: 10.1093/molbev/mss091
Evidence of pre-Roman tribal genetic structure in Basques from uniparentally inherited markers
Begoña Martínez-Cruz et al.

Our results indicate that Basque-speaking populations fall within the genetic Western European gene pool and they are similar to geographically surrounding non-Basque populations


September 05, 2012
Words denoting pulse crops in European languages
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/words-denoting-pulse-crops-in-european.html
PLoS ONE 7(9): e44512. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0044512
Origin of the Words Denoting Some of the Most Ancient Old World Pulse Crops and Their Diversity in Modern European Languages
Aleksandar Mikic
while another one, *howl(a)(‘bean’, ‘lentil’) and the Proto-Basque root *ilha-r (‘pea’, ‘bean’, ‘vetch’) could have a common Proto-Sino-Caucasian ancestor


September 09, 2012
IE-speaking West Europeans are West Asian-admixed relative to Non-IE speaking Basques
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/ie-speaking-west-europeans-are-west.html
The modern Basques share the East Eurasian-like admixture of continental Europeans, albeit to a smaller degree than people living in the north. They, like other Europeans are a mix of Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples.

September 11, 2012
West Asian and North European admixture in Basques and Indo-Europeans
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/west-asian-and-north-european-admixture.html
In conclusion, by comparing Basques vs. Indo-Europeans there appears no good evidence for the theory that Indo-European languages were brought into western Europe by a massive migration of northern Europeoids from eastern Europe. Basques do not appear distinctive in terms of the North_European component, but they do appear distinctive in terms of the West_Asian one.

Previous ADMIXTURE experiments have shown that the Basques differ from the Indo-European speaking Europeans primarily due to a lack of a "West Asian" genetic component most strongly represented on the highlands of West Asia, from Anatolia and the Caucasus through Iran to Baluchistan. The same component is "missing" from ancient European DNA prior to 5kya, making it a good candidate for an element present in the elusive Proto-Indo-Europeans.

January 15, 2013
Ancient mtDNA from Santimamiñe Cave
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/01/ancient-mtdna-from-santimamine-cave.html
I see press releases and news stories on this cave from time to time, but I haven't actually located any published studies. If anyone is aware of more information, feel free to leave a comment.
Genetic research reveals that current population of Urdaibai probably descended from cave dwellers at Santimamiñe
The comparison of DNA extracted from a Homo sapiens who inhabited the Santimamine Cave (in the Basque province of Biscay) some 4,000 years ago, and from 6 other bone remains found in the same cave, with the DNA of 158 persons currently living in the surrounding Urdaibai region, has shown that current individuals have maternal lineages very similar to the archaeological remains. The findings enable putting forward the hypothesis that the current population is descended from the ancient denizens of the Santimamine Cave.

Jean M
10-12-2013, 04:35 PM
But that would not explain why they are so high in R1b1a2 M269 she is generalizing their subclade.

I am generalising in that sentence. I go on to say that the subclade L21, characteristic of France and the British Isles is found in c. 20% of of Basque-speaking males. I don't spell out that I think this was acquired by intermarriage with neighbouring Celts, but that is my view. I go on to discuss M153 as a probable Post-Roman mutation in the Basques long after they settled around the northern Pyrenees, and point out that it is a subclade of the DF27 common in Iberia. I don't know how they acquired the DF27, and agree with Mike that I could have landed in quicksand on this one. :)

I am speculating that the ancestor of Basque was spoken in Cucuteni. If the rump of Cucuteni was absorbed by Yamnaya, then most of them would (I think) have adopted PIE, but a small number could have retained their mother-tongue. That might, just might, possibly explain why we have people with high amounts of DF27 living beside each other, but speaking different languages. The problem is outlined above by Mike. I suspect that DF27 occurred somewhere in or en route to Iberia.

There are alternative possibilities to explain the oddity of the Basques, including that the language was preserved by a small group of females.

alan
10-12-2013, 06:21 PM
Jean in your book you discuss the simiarities and differences between Basques and Sardinians in terms of DNA, language etc. I have heard somewhere on the web that Basque after Sardinian has the highest Med. component in Europe. I realise their yDNA doesnt generally resemble each other. It seems more than a coincidence that the Med. peak is in two areas which may have connected languages too. What are your thoughts on that?


I am generalising in that sentence. I go on to say that the subclade L21, characteristic of France and the British Isles is found in c. 20% of of Basque-speaking males. I don't spell out that I think this was acquired by intermarriage with neighbouring Celts, but that is my view. I go on to discuss M153 as a probable Post-Roman mutation in the Basques long after they settled around the northern Pyrenees, and point out that it is a subclade of the DF27 common in Iberia. I don't know how they acquired the DF27, and agree with Mike that I could have landed in quicksand on this one. :)

I am speculating that the ancestor of Basque was spoken in Cucuteni. If the rump of Cucuteni was absorbed by Yamnaya, then most of them would (I think) have adopted PIE, but a small number could have retained their mother-tongue. That might, just might, possibly explain why we have people with high amounts of DF27 living beside each other, but speaking different languages. The problem is outlined above by Mike. I suspect that DF27 occurred somewhere in or en route to Iberia.

There are alternative possibilities to explain the oddity of the Basques, including that the language was preserved by a small group of females.

Jean M
10-12-2013, 06:49 PM
I generally stick with Sardinian as the best modern proxy for the pre-IE Europeans, and just cautiously say that the Basques too may have something to tell us about Europe before the Indo-Europeans. The former I have a good published reference for in the comparisons with Otzi and the Neolithic farmer in Sweden.

The Basques seem to be a mixture genetically, perhaps of peoples arriving in that geographical niche in different waves. One such wave might be some of the same early farmers who first settled Sardinia.

On the linguistic front, the author who claimed that Palaeo-Sardinian arrived in Sardinia from Iberia in the Stone Age was clearly uninformed on the archaeology of Sardinia. It wasn't settled until the Neolithic and the farmers arriving there came from the Near East. However Palaeo-Sardinian did not necessarily arrive then. We have a Copper Age culture appearing in Sardinia c. 4000 BC - the right time to be refugees from the destroyed tell settlements of the Balkans.

R.Rocca
10-12-2013, 08:23 PM
I generally stick with Sardinian as the best modern proxy for the pre-IE Europeans, and just cautiously say that the Basques too may have something to tell us about Europe before the Indo-Europeans. The former I have a good published reference for in the comparisons with Otzi and the Neolithic farmer in Sweden.

The Basques seem to be a mixture genetically, perhaps of peoples arriving in that geographical niche in different waves. One such wave might be some of the same early farmers who first settled Sardinia.

On the linguistic front, the author who claimed that Palaeo-Sardinian arrived in Sardinia from Iberia in the Stone Age was clearly uninformed on the archaeology of Sardinia. It wasn't settled until the Neolithic and the farmers arriving there came from the Near East. However Palaeo-Sardinian did not necessarily arrive then. We have a Copper Age culture appearing in Sardinia c. 4000 BC - the right time to be refugees from the destroyed tell settlements of the Balkans.

This came out in August of this year and surely explains a lot about the genetic and linguistic relationship between Sardinians and Iberians, and there are bound to be some substantial links to warrant a book:

Iberia e Sardegna. Legami linguistici, archeologici e genetici dal Mesolitico all'Età del Bronzo
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sardegna-linguistici-archeologici-genetici-Mesolitico/dp/8800744494

Note that geneticist Paolo Francalacci is a co-author.

alan
10-12-2013, 10:50 PM
The links are interesting but if the Med. component is extremely strong in both and apparently the most striking common denominator of both areas genetically, its tempting to see it as the source of the linguistic link. I agree this seems very unlikely to be pre-Neolithic for all sorts of reasons. I suppose we can say that this kind of autosomal DNA was present by 4000-3000BC period given Otzi and the TRB farmer although I suppose its not possible to say for certain if it goes back to the first waves of the Neolithic spreading across Europe or not because both are too late. However, it does give a nice possible linguistic link to an autosomal component in the 4th millenium BC.

Anglecynn
10-13-2013, 12:32 AM
Jean in your book you discuss the simiarities and differences between Basques and Sardinians in terms of DNA, language etc. I have heard somewhere on the web that Basque after Sardinian has the highest Med. component in Europe. I realise their yDNA doesnt generally resemble each other. It seems more than a coincidence that the Med. peak is in two areas which may have connected languages too. What are your thoughts on that?

They also have really high 'Atlantic' too. It's almost like they are opposites - The Sardianians have really high West Mediterranean and a significant amount of Atlantic, while the Basque have really high Atlantic and a significant amount of Mediterranean. After that the French Basque have a moderate amount of 'North Sea', while the Sardinians have a moderate amount of Mediterranean. Both seem to be unusual compared to their surrounding populations, but it's just like they are massively over-represented by a particular component that is common in their neighbors.

Adversary
10-13-2013, 10:11 AM
I believe the high levels of R1b in Basques, along with their lack of autosomal components associated with Indo-Europeans, makes it highly unlikely that R1b and Bell Beaker are responsible for the spread of Indo-European in Western Europe. But time will tell.

Jean M
10-13-2013, 12:32 PM
This came out in August of this year and surely explains a lot about the genetic and linguistic relationship between Sardinians and Iberians, and there are bound to be some substantial links to warrant a book ... Note that geneticist Paolo Francalacci is a co-author.

You haven't read it yet, I take it? Love to know whether Blasco Ferrer is still rooting for a Mesolithic origin, which makes no sense to me.

Jean M
10-13-2013, 01:20 PM
I believe the high levels of R1b in Basques, along with their lack of autosomal components associated with Indo-Europeans, makes it highly unlikely that R1b and Bell Beaker are responsible for the spread of Indo-European in Western Europe. But time will tell.

The high levels of R1b are certainly a puzzle, but one to which there are several possible answers. According to one calculation, the Basque R1b seems to represent a huge expansion c. 5500 BC from an originally very small group. That is from Shia 2010, who used a modified form of the dreaded "evolutionary effective" rate, so we should treat the date with caution. But the point about the very small founder group is important. Picture one extended family of pastoralists arriving in the Pyrenees, looking for good pasture-land. It includes males, the younger ones of whom marry local women (which would explain the acquisition of local mtDNA U5b), but none of these males has surviving male descendants beyond three or four generations. Sons-in-law therefore gradually take over the herds. Though the language is retained, the original Y-DNA is not. Autosomally however we would expect this group to look somewhat different from their Celtic neighbours, though not completely different.

There are parallel cases among some Turkic-speaking groups high in R1a1a.

R.Rocca
10-13-2013, 01:22 PM
You haven't read it yet, I take it? Love to know whether Blasco Ferrer is still rooting for a Mesolithic origin, which makes no sense to me.

Not yet, but I do have it on order.

Jean M
10-13-2013, 01:44 PM
Not yet, but I do have it on order.

Hope you will keep us posted on what you make of it.

R.Rocca
10-13-2013, 02:04 PM
Hope you will keep us posted on what you make of it.

I'm 4 books behind on my reading, but I'll try to browse through and see what I can find. I'm sure the linguistics will be waaaay over my head.

jeanL
10-13-2013, 03:30 PM
Here are a few things that make it quite unlikely that Basque evolved around metal working, instead it seems more likely their words for metal were acquired from Latin or even Spanish.

English-Basque-Spanish
Gold-Urre/Urrea-Oro
Iron-Burdina/Burni-Hierro
Copper-Kobre/"Burni-Gorri"-Cobre
Bronze-Brontze/"Burni-Orri"-Bronze
Silver-Zilarra/"Urre-Zuri"-Plata

Basque uses the word for Iron and combines it with either red or yellow to refer to Copper and Bronze, which isn't something one would expect for people for were directly dealing with metal working at is earlierst stages. The other commonly used words(Kobre, Brontze) are clearly derived from Latin.

Jean M
10-13-2013, 03:44 PM
The modern words for tin, copper and bronze are all borrowed from Romance, but originally Euskara had its own words for these metals. See S. F. Pushkariova 1998, Primario y secundario en los nombres vascos de los metales, Fontes linguae vasconum: Studia et documenta, 30 (79), 417-28.

dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/26281.pdf


Basque uses the word for Iron and combines it with either red or yellow to refer to Copper and Bronze, which isn't something one would expect for people for were directly dealing with metal working at is earliest stages.

Since iron was worked later than copper, we can deduce that the Basque word for "iron" originally meant "metal".

jeanL
10-13-2013, 03:51 PM
Let' talks about significant autosomal components:

Globe13

French Basques(n=23):

Mediterranean: 59.5%
North European: 39%
South Asian: 1.1%

Pais_Vasco(n=7):

Mediterranean: 56.1%
North European: 41%
West Asian: 1.5%
South Asian: 1.1%

Sardinians(n=25):

Mediterranean: 71%
North European: 16.1%
West Asian: 4.1%
Southwest Asian:8.7%

Oetzi

Mediterranean: 59.5%
North European: 13.6%
West Asian: 6.0%
Southwest Asian:15.9%

Gok4

Mediterranean: 64.2%
North European: 28.1%
Southwest Asian:7.6%

La Braña-Artintero

Mediterranean: 24.8%
North European: 71.9%

AJL
10-13-2013, 03:51 PM
Thanks -- I looked up a couple more:

tin = eztainu, apparently from Latin stannum
bronze = brontze
nickle = nikel

Flint, however, is sukarri, which sounds at least to my ears indigenously Basque.

http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukarri

Jean M
10-13-2013, 03:59 PM
@ AJL I take it that you were responding to Jean L rather than me. See my post above re the older words for metals in Euskara.

It is not just the words for metal that matter though. Euskara has its own native words not only for various agricultural terms, but also for wheel, cart and smith. See Ancestral Journeys, p. 121 for the full list.

AJL
10-13-2013, 04:06 PM
@ AJL I take it that you were responding to Jean L rather than me. See my post above re the older words for metals in Euskara.

It is not just the words for metal that matter though. Euskara has its own native words not only for various agricultural terms, but also for wheel, cart and smith. See Ancestral Journeys, p. 121 for the full list.

Yes I was -- thanks for pointing out your post.

ADW_1981
10-13-2013, 04:23 PM
They are low in the Gedrosia autosomal component, which is interesting. I don't know what to make of that.

Actually they have a Gedrosia component like other west Europeans. It's West Asia component which they lack. They are similar to French and British, except these populations have higher north European, where as the Basque have higher Mediterranean like Spanish and north Italians.

alan
10-13-2013, 04:57 PM
It does seem like the Med. component is the main shared high one between the Basques and Sardinians if we are looking for a common thread between them


Let' talks about significant autosomal components:

Globe13

French Basques(n=23):

Mediterranean: 59.5%
North European: 39%
South Asian: 1.1%

Pais_Vasco(n=7):

Mediterranean: 56.1%
North European: 41%
West Asian: 1.5%
South Asian: 1.1%

Sardinians(n=25):

Mediterranean: 71%
North European: 16.1%
West Asian: 4.1%
Southwest Asian:8.7%

Oetzi

Mediterranean: 59.5%
North European: 13.6%
West Asian: 6.0%
Southwest Asian:15.9%

Gok4

Mediterranean: 64.2%
North European: 28.1%
Southwest Asian:7.6%

La Braña-Artintero

Mediterranean: 24.8%
North European: 71.9%

alan
10-13-2013, 05:04 PM
I dont know if the usual dividing it in three would be appropriate but if we did then Basque R1b would be really young - Iron Age at best. I know the L21 is low in variance from previous discussions and the Basque-specific subclades of DF27 also were young from memory. So, at least a considerable amount of it is young. Perhaps the Basques absorbed a lot of yDNA from the apparently Celtic tribes who preceded them in a lot of their Spanish territory and also Celtic tribes in France with whom the Aquitani seem to be intermixed with.


The high levels of R1b are certainly a puzzle, but one to which there are several possible answers. According to one calculation, the Basque R1b seems to represent a huge expansion c. 5500 BC from an originally very small group. That is from Shia 2010, who used a modified form of the dreaded "evolutionary effective" rate, so we should treat the date with caution. But the point about the very small founder group is important. Picture one extended family of pastoralists arriving in the Pyrenees, looking for good pasture-land. It includes males, the younger ones of whom marry local women (which would explain the acquisition of local mtDNA U5b), but none of these males has surviving male descendants beyond three or four generations. Sons-in-law therefore gradually take over the herds. Though the language is retained, the original Y-DNA is not. Autosomally however we would expect this group to look somewhat different from their Celtic neighbours, though not completely different.

There are parallel cases among some Turkic-speaking groups high in R1a1a.

alan
10-13-2013, 05:12 PM
To me the Basques look like an even mix of northern and Med. and nothing much else. What you would expect if they were basically a mix of hunter substrate and farmers really who saw little else afterwards. It seems very unlikely for all sorts of reasons to think that R1b was part of the farming wave. Reasons include ancient DNA, the high Med, possibly Basque-related language but low R1b in the Sardinians and of course the much younger age of R1b which wouldnt support a pre-farming model. It does seem though that the Basques have a lot of northern genes autosomally speaking.


They also have really high 'Atlantic' too. It's almost like they are opposites - The Sardianians have really high West Mediterranean and a significant amount of Atlantic, while the Basque have really high Atlantic and a significant amount of Mediterranean. After that the French Basque have a moderate amount of 'North Sea', while the Sardinians have a moderate amount of Mediterranean. Both seem to be unusual compared to their surrounding populations, but it's just like they are massively over-represented by a particular component that is common in their neighbors.

jeanL
10-13-2013, 05:37 PM
Euro

French Basques(n=24):

Northwestern: 53.5%
Northeastern: 0.4%
Southeastern: 10.2%
Southwestern: 35.9%

Sardinians(n=28):

Northwestern: 28.9%
Southeastern: 34.4%
Southwestern: 36.6%

Oetzi

Northwestern: 22.5%
Southeastern: 37.7%
Southwestern: 37.8%

Gok4

Northwestern: 61.5%
Southeastern: 21.4%
Southwestern: 17.1%


La Braña-Artintero

Northwestern: 89.6%
Southeastern: 1.6%

Avj70

Northeastern: 100.00%

Avj52

Northeastern: 75.10%
Northwestern: 21.8%

jeanL
10-13-2013, 05:45 PM
Here is what becomes clear when analyzing the European components of each sample.

Gok4 and Oetzi are not alike. Gok4 is mostly Northwestern more than the Basques but less than La Braña. The Avj HG combo pulls more towards the Northeastern part. Basques have little(10.4%) but significant southeastern present in Sardinians(34.4%), Oetzi(37.7%), and Gok4(21.4%) to a lesser extent. The Southwestern component also seems to be shared by Basques(35.9%), Sardinians (36.6%), Oetzi(37.8%), and Gok4(17.1%) to a lesser extent but not the Hunter Gatherers.

PS: It is important to point out that La Braña only used a limited number of SNPs from a single chromosome(22), so they could be massively different once they are analyzed completely. For example if someone was to analyze one of my mother's chromosome 11 they could find she has something like 40% African, and it would seem like that chromosome would pull towards North Africa, but in her whole genome the African is only 2.2% and is mostly concentrated in that chromosome plus another one.

alan
10-13-2013, 05:55 PM
That breakdown would make it seem that south-western is the most likely strongest common link between Sardinians and Basques. What is south-western though and are the levels of south-western unusually high in those two groups?


Here is what becomes clear when analyzing the European components of each sample.

Gok4 and Oetzi are not alike. Gok4 is mostly Northwestern more than the Basques but less than La Braña. The Avj HG combo pulls more towards the Northeastern part. Basques have little(10.4%) but significant southeastern present in Sardinians(34.4%), Oetzi(37.7%), and Gok4(21.4%) to a lesser extent. The Southwestern component also seems to be shared by Basques(35.9%), Sardinians (36.6%), Oetzi(37.8%), and Gok4(17.1%) to a lesser extent but not the Hunter Gatherers.

PS: It is important to point out that La Braña only used a limited number of SNPs from a single chromosome(22), so they could be massively different once they are analyzed completely. For example if someone was to analyze one of my mother's chromosome 11 they could find she has something like 40% African, and it would seem like that chromosome would pull towards North Africa, but in her whole genome the African is only 2.2% and is mostly concentrated in that chromosome plus another one.

jeanL
10-13-2013, 05:59 PM
That breakdown would make it seem that south-western is the most likely strongest common link between Sardinians and Basques. What is south-western though and are the levels of south-western unusually high in those two groups?

If I had to make some guesses, I would say that it seems to me that the Southwestern/Southeastern combo represent two Neolithic derived components. Whereas the Northwestern, Northeastern component represent two Mesolithic derived components.

Adversary
10-13-2013, 06:15 PM
Actually they have a Gedrosia component like other west Europeans. It's West Asia component which they lack. They are similar to French and British, except these populations have higher north European, where as the Basque have higher Mediterranean like Spanish and north Italians.
Maybe Gedrosian is related to Bell Beaker, and West Asian to Indo-European?

Anglecynn
10-14-2013, 12:17 AM
Here is what becomes clear when analyzing the European components of each sample.

Gok4 and Oetzi are not alike. Gok4 is mostly Northwestern more than the Basques but less than La Braña. The Avj HG combo pulls more towards the Northeastern part. Basques have little(10.4%) but significant southeastern present in Sardinians(34.4%), Oetzi(37.7%), and Gok4(21.4%) to a lesser extent. The Southwestern component also seems to be shared by Basques(35.9%), Sardinians (36.6%), Oetzi(37.8%), and Gok4(17.1%) to a lesser extent but not the Hunter Gatherers.

PS: It is important to point out that La Braña only used a limited number of SNPs from a single chromosome(22), so they could be massively different once they are analyzed completely. For example if someone was to analyze one of my mother's chromosome 11 they could find she has something like 40% African, and it would seem like that chromosome would pull towards North Africa, but in her whole genome the African is only 2.2% and is mostly concentrated in that chromosome plus another one.

That is a good point, maybe it is dangerous to start getting too involved in using them if so little of their genome is used. I guess it's useful in that it tells us what components they have, and maybe which ones are dominant - at a push.

alan
10-14-2013, 02:14 PM
That seems a pretty sensible deduction to me too. Is there anywhere I can view the distribution of south-eastern and south-western components and Euro 7 in general on a wider European scale? I am not very up on autosomal DNA as it seems to be spliced up in so many different ways its confusing.

That breakdown really would change how we view Gok 4 and more in line with the mtDNA paper just out and at least some people's archaeological expectations. Makes his mix look more Basque-like than Sardinian like IMO while Mr Ice does remain Sardinian like. If one sees the Basques as a fairly even Meso-Neo mix with little else, that is also the kind of mix that makes complete sense for Gok 4.

lol when I hear Gok 4 I keep thinking who Gok 1 is and cant help thinking of Gok Wan - a super camp British-Chinese fashion guru.



If I had to make some guesses, I would say that it seems to me that the Southwestern/Southeastern combo represent two Neolithic derived components. Whereas the Northwestern, Northeastern component represent two Mesolithic derived components.

R.Rocca
10-31-2013, 12:45 AM
This came out in August of this year and surely explains a lot about the genetic and linguistic relationship between Sardinians and Iberians, and there are bound to be some substantial links to warrant a book:

Iberia e Sardegna. Legami linguistici, archeologici e genetici dal Mesolitico all'Età del Bronzo
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sardegna-linguistici-archeologici-genetici-Mesolitico/dp/8800744494

Note that geneticist Paolo Francalacci is a co-author.

I skimmed through the book and found these to be the highlights:

Eduardo Blasco Ferrer, "Paleosardinian" - Blasco makes a case for Paleosardinian and Proto-Basque splitting from Pre-Proto-Basque sometime during the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic transition. Blasco's Paleosardinian toponyms are found in the center-east of the island. While Blasco does not make mention of genetics, the Sardinian center-east is highest in I-M26

Xaverio Ballester, "Da Iberia a Urbara...o vicesversa, o...?" - Ballester goes over different scenarios regarding the possible direction of language flow of the two languages and concludes that neither descend from one another, but are rather descend from a group of of immigrants originating in the eastern Meditterenean.

Joseba A. Lakarra, "Protovasco: compararcion y reconstruccion...para que y como?" - Lakarra presents counter arguments for Blasco Ferrer's model, but they are above anything I understand about linguistics.

Paolo Francalacci, "New Insight on the Genetic Origin of Sardinians" - This is mostly the same as Francalacci's study from this year. On I-M26, he does say this:

This haplotype shows duplicate at higher frequencies the same distribution of the mtDNA haplogroups V, H1 and H3, indicating that it is the result of the same peopling event: the repopulation eastward of Europe from the Iberian refuge, following the withdraw of the glaciers after the last glacial maximum.

Maria Pala, "Sardinia: a Living Snapshot of Western Mediterranean Prehistory" - Pala also calls the similar high levels of mtDNA haplogroups V, H1 and H3 as a link to the Iberian refugium, but also including U5b.

There is plenty more on the obsidian trade, Celtic languages in Iberia, the Mediterranean Neolithic, Megalithic Sardinia, and genetic studies already published in past years.

Jean M
10-31-2013, 11:09 AM
Xaverio Ballester, "Da Iberia a Urbara...o vicesvers, o...?" - Ballester goes over different scenarios regarding the possible direction of language flow of the two languages and concludes that neither descend from one another, but are rather descend from a group of of immigrants originating in the eastern Mediterranean.


Glad I'm not on my own with this one.

Rathna
10-31-2013, 11:28 AM
Paolo Francalacci, "New Insight on the Genetic Origin of Sardinians" - This is mostly the same as Francalacci's study from this year. On I-M26, he does say this:

This haplotype shows duplicate at higher frequencies the same distribution of the mtDNA haplogroups V, H1 and H3, indicating that it is the result of the same peopling event: the repopulation eastward of Europe from the Iberian refuge, following the withdraw of the glaciers after the last glacial maximum.


If I remember well the Francalacci's paper seemed to say something different: that Sardinian I-M26 didn't descend from the Iberian one, but both presupposed an ancestor in continental Italy.
Of course I should read the book, but it seems to me absurd to buy an Italian book from Amazon. Probably I'll find it here at a cheaper price.

R.Rocca
10-31-2013, 11:56 AM
If I remember well the Francalacci's paper seemed to say something different: that Sardinian I-M26 didn't descend from the Iberian one, but both presupposed an ancestor in continental Italy.
Of course I should read the book, but it seems to me absurd to buy an Italian book from Amazon. Probably I'll find it here at a cheaper price.


Francalacci stated the following in his study:


The Basque individual separates from the basal position of the I2a1a branch that encompasses 11 Sardinian individuals. The northern Italian sample, instead, most likely reflecting the last step of I2a1 lineages before their arrival in Sardinia, is at the basal point of most of the remaining I2a1a samples (Fig. 2). Considering two other basal lineages encompassing only Sardinian samples, we can infer that when the I2a1a sub-haplogroup entered Sardinia, it had already differentiated into four founder lineages that then accumulated private Sardinian variability.

When you look at the I2a1 tree he constructed, you can see a N. Italian/Sardinian branch and a separate Basque branch both deriving from a common ancestor. However, there are Sardinian private clades at positions lower and higher than the Basque branch of the tree, so I can't see how he made the assumption he made in the book one way or another.

palamede
10-31-2013, 08:49 PM
I remind I2a1a (L158/PF4073/S433, L159.1/S169.1, M26/PF4056) is not important in all Basque Country , but it is more a Pyrenean haplogroup from Basque Pyrenees (Navarra) to Catalunian Pyrenees.

In Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438
"Haplogroup I-L158 (L158, L159.1/S169.1, M26) accounts for approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians.[8] It is also found at low to moderate frequency among populations of the Pyrenees (9.5% in Bortzerriak, Navarra; 9.7% in Chazetania, Aragon; 8% in Val d'Aran, Catalunya; 2.9% in Alt Urgell, Catalunya; and 8.1% in Baixa Cerdanya, Catalunya) and Iberia, and it has been found in 1.6% of a sample of Albanians living in the Republic of Macedonia[9] and 1.2% (3/257) of a sample of Czechs.[10] The age of YSTR variation for the M26 subclade has been calculated at 8.0±4.0 kya.[2]".


Probably I2a1a was dominant in the North-East of Spain (Ebro Basin and Med coast) during Epipaleolithic/Mesolithic but it should take refugia in Pyrenean valleys and in Sardinian mountagnous inland. Later some followed the Cardial expansion thru Spain and West France.
The scarcity of I2a1a in continental Italy is striking and doestnt show any old importance of I2a1 in Italy. Numerous prehistorical remains of the LGM along the Italian coasts, but with very difficult and impossible often to go thru the Appenins whic created a lack of communication between the 2 coasts.

I2a1a with the high frequency of the the mt hgs H1, H3, V and U5b in Basque Country and in Sardinia show a strong link between these two nregions (old Basque Country went to Val d'Aran and Garonne river; Low Aragon, Catalonia and Levant were Iberic during Iron Age ) plus linguistic arguments.

Other thing to signal : According to specialists, for the last pleniglacial during millenias, communication between Mediterranean Spain and Franco-Cantabric areas were almost impossible. Maybe populations were different for haplogroups with a different genetic drift in these very weak populations.

It is impossible the population of Franco-Cantabric area (with the Magdalenian expansion thru West Europa) is without descent nowadays and it doesn't seem their haplogroup was I2a1a. You can conclude what you want !

Tomenable
08-24-2016, 05:58 PM
Are there any good high-resolution studies on R1b subclades among the Basques?

ArmandoR1b
08-24-2016, 06:30 PM
Are there any good high-resolution studies on R1b subclades among the Basques?

These are the only studies of R1b in Basques

http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/9/2211.full

Tomenable
08-26-2016, 06:01 PM
These are the only studies of R1b in Basques

http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(15)30174-8/fulltext

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html

Based on these two papers, here is the structure of native Basque L11 (quite a lot of P312*, it seems?):

lub means or

https://s9.postimg.io/z76zafqgf/R1b_Bask_w.png

Tomenable
08-26-2016, 06:04 PM
The main Basque subclade is Z196 - 38% or nearly 4/10 of native Basques have it. How old is it?

razyn
08-26-2016, 06:19 PM
Some of the Basque DF27* may be DF81+, that specific subclade of the ZZ12+ (Z196-) side of the DF27 tree seems strong in Basque country.

Jean M
08-26-2016, 06:22 PM
The main Basque subclade is Z196 - 38% or nearly 4/10 of native Basques have it. How old is it?

I have a couple of calculations in my notes:

5340 ya +/- 750, calculated as 178 +/- 25 generations x 30 years, or 4460 ya if 25 years used as generation (J. Dean).
3500 ya (KN calculator for intraclade. Actual probably older.)


But these days, people seem to favour YFull for such calculations. For Z195/Z196 YFull gives formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp. https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z195/

ArmandoR1b
08-26-2016, 07:09 PM
Based on these two papers, here is the structure of native Basque L11 (quite a lot of P312*, it seems?):

Both of the papers are on the same samples give or take a few. Yes, the amount of P312* was very surprising. It would have been nice if they had done NGS testing and not just testing of specific SNPs.

ArmandoR1b
08-26-2016, 07:18 PM
The main Basque subclade is Z196 - 38% or nearly 4/10 of native Basques have it. How old is it?

DF27 is divided by Z196+ and Z196- which is DF27* in that spreadsheet. Z196+ is about 38% and DF27* is 31%. So there is only about a 7% difference there. Out of the Z196+ there is 28% S356 which is phylogenetically equivalent to Z220, Z209, Z210 and some other SNPs that can be seen at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=629&star=false

The Z196- or DF27* is ZZ12 in Alex Williamson's tree at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31 and there are plenty of Iberians and Latin Americans in that group that aren't DF81 so there are probably a lot of Basque that are ZZ12 that aren't DF81.

ADW_1981
08-26-2016, 10:44 PM
It looks like S356 is a Z220 equivalent? Interesting that the bulk of Basque in this sample at least are xM153. It would be interesting to see where they fell within that since many discoveries have been made between the two SNPs.

Tomenable
08-26-2016, 11:40 PM
Z196 (~38%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z195/

And this is the main branch of Z196 among the Basques:

S356 (~28%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z209/

Both lineages are rather old, date back to the Bronze Age.

ADW_1981
08-27-2016, 02:38 AM
Z196 (~38%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z195/

And this is the main branch of Z196 among the Basques:

S356 (~28%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z209/

Both lineages are rather old, date back to the Bronze Age.

Yes, but between Z209/Z220 and M153 there are a number of branches with rather different distributions. Looking at some members in the public projects, the M153- Basques might be Z279+ (M153-).

ArmandoR1b
08-27-2016, 03:33 PM
Z196 (~38%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z195/

And this is the main branch of Z196 among the Basques:

S356 (~28%) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z209/

Both lineages are rather old, date back to the Bronze Age.

All P312, of which DF27 is a descendant, is from the Bronze Age. We have known about that date estimation since YFull published it which was even before the Valverde et al. 2015 paper.

rms2
08-27-2016, 08:29 PM
I have always thought the importance of the Basques in the grand scheme of things was much exaggerated. I still think so, actually even more now that ancient y-dna has become available.

R.Rocca
08-29-2016, 12:05 PM
I have always thought the importance of the Basques in the grand scheme of things was much exaggerated. I still think so, actually even more now that ancient y-dna has become available.

Exaggerated to the point that it takes the focus off of data points that aren't anomalies. For that reason, you'll never see a post titled... "What about all of the R1b in the Irish". Just say'in :D

miiser
08-29-2016, 10:25 PM
Exaggerated to the point that it takes the focus off of data points that aren't anomalies. For that reason, you'll never see a post titled... "What about all of the R1b in the Irish". Just say'in :D

These sort of threads always amuse me for exactly this reason. It's as if the typical majority data points become so taken for granted that they're no longer even viewed as data by some. They just get subconsciously screened out. The exceptions become a fixation. Similarly, we'll often see comments of the sort, "Did anyone notice the new L21 from Poland?", when the more sensible approach is, "Did anyone notice the 10s of thousands of L21 NOT from Poland?"

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:42 PM
This new paper links Trypillian culture with Iberia (as far as mitochondrial DNA is concerned):

https://www.academia.edu/27998059/Paleogenetic_analysis_of_the_Eneolithic_4900_2750_ calBC_Trypillian_Culture_from_Verteba_Cave_Ukraine


(...) This exploratory analysis suggests Verteba Cave [Trypillian culture] individuals are more closely related to Neolithic groups from the Basque Country (NBQ), Cardial Ware Spain (MNC), and Central European Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic Bell Beaker peoples (BBC). (...)

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:44 PM
Who is Ryan Schmidt?

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:46 PM
Who is Ryan Schmidt?

Ryan Schmidt about himself:

"I am currently a Marie Curie Postdoctoral Fellow in Ron Pinhasi's lab at University College, Dublin. We are currently working on optimizing ancient DNA yields from challenging environments."

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:49 PM
And that is relevant to the R1b in Basques how?

Tomenable
08-29-2016, 11:51 PM
Do you have Y-DNA from Trypillian culture ??? Because I don't.

But I would like to see it.

rms2
08-29-2016, 11:53 PM
Do you have Y-DNA from Trypillian culture ??? Because I don't.

But I would like to see it.

Nope, but we have y-dna from Yamnaya and from Bell Beaker, which Gimbutas said was a combination of Yamnaya and Vucedol. R1b-L23 was present in both.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-30-2016, 12:17 AM
This new paper links Trypillian culture with Iberia (as far as mitochondrial DNA is concerned):

https://www.academia.edu/27998059/Paleogenetic_analysis_of_the_Eneolithic_4900_2750_ calBC_Trypillian_Culture_from_Verteba_Cave_Ukraine

From what I can discern, it's nothing too new overall, but with better mtDNA sub-group resolution.
The mtDNA lines from Vertebra have been known for a decade or so- and Schmidt concludes that the Cucuteni part of the C-T culture is just like other Neolithic European groups, as well as the BB mtDNA lines

But the full NGS will be interesting

Heber
08-30-2016, 05:11 AM
Specifically, archaeological evidence suggests Tripolye origins stem from the interaction of several Neolithic cultures, while a small number of individuals analyzed using morphometric traits suggest a possible Near Eastern origin. We performed Sanger sequencing of the mtDNA control region (HVRI) and high-throughput sequencing (HTS) for several individuals that allowed us to obtain nuclear genetic data. Our preliminary results indicate maternal lineages that are common to modern Eurasian peoples and variants common to peoples of the Neolithic, specifically to populations that resided in southern Europe and Iberia.

" Table 1. mtDNA haplogroups for Verteba Cave individuals. Most are represented by haplogroup H, which is common among modern Europeans (~ 40%) (Richards et al., 2002).

Brotherton, Brandt and more recently Pala, Soares and Richards linked the expansion of H to the expansion of Bell Beaker from Iberia. (Celtic from the West 3).

Cunliffe identified Cucutini Tripolyte as a point of interaction with the Steppes (Steppes, Desert and Ocean).

11257

https://books.google.ie/books?id=osQ9CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=cucuteni+tripolye+cunliffe&source=bl&ots=ArxBtykccd&sig=Sm9Z4JI2l5kR3SANQwu43f7RjVQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirgYWYq-jOAhXsBcAKHRpLDS8Q6AEIJDAD#v=onepage&q=cucuteni%20tripolye%20cunliffe&f=false

kevingnet
03-04-2017, 06:48 AM
Some of the research about placenames in the Spanish basque country points to them having Celtic origins. It's been suggested that a process of Vascoisation happened in the period after the fall of Roman Empire eg. Migration of Basque (Proto-Basque?) speakers out of Aquitaine into North-East Spain where over time assimilated the local population. In such a scenario it wouldn't be surprising that you have haplgroups associated with IE speakers (Celtic in this case) showing up among Basques.

There are clear loanwords in Basque that have Celtic origins. The word for bear for example (if I remember correctly).

"basque country points to them having Celtic origins." You wish! ;-)

Actually, it's more likely that, because of their admixture that they're native to the area, iow, Iberians. As to the origins of the Iberians, that's the other question. It looks like they were the first to arrive and later other tribes joined them arriving from north Africa, this maybe the case because of the used to be called Cromagnons which were found nearby.

Celt dudes came later and the cultures sort of mixed and some words were stolen from each others' languages.

Romilius
03-04-2017, 01:28 PM
"basque country points to them having Celtic origins." You wish! ;-)

Actually, it's more likely that, because of their admixture that they're native to the area, iow, Iberians. As to the origins of the Iberians, that's the other question. It looks like they were the first to arrive and later other tribes joined them arriving from north Africa, this maybe the case because of the used to be called Cromagnons which were found nearby.

Celt dudes came later and the cultures sort of mixed and some words were stolen from each others' languages.

You said everything explaining nothing. The question is about the R1b in Basques, not if they were the first or not to arrive in Iberia. And Dubhthach is right: the Basque Country has Celtic placenames.

rms2
03-04-2017, 01:31 PM
"basque country points to them having Celtic origins." You wish! ;-) . . .

Dubhthach did not say the Basques have Celtic origins (although it is likely their R1b does). He said there are place names in the Spanish Basque country that are of Celtic origin.

ArmandoR1b
03-04-2017, 03:13 PM
"basque country points to them having Celtic origins." You wish! ;-)
Dubhthach said "placenames in the Spanish basque country points to them having Celtic origins" then he went on to say that "Migration of Basque (Proto-Basque?) speakers out of Aquitaine into" the area that had placenames with Celtic origins. So as rms2 stated, "Dubhthach did not say the Basques have Celtic origins"


Actually, it's more likely that, because of their admixture that they're native to the area, iow, Iberians. As to the origins of the Iberians, that's the other question. It looks like they were the first to arrive and later other tribes joined them arriving from north Africa, this maybe the case because of the used to be called Cromagnons which were found nearby.

Celt dudes came later and the cultures sort of mixed and some words were stolen from each others' languages.

We know from Haak et al. 2015 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html) that the Basque are a three way mixture of Mesolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers, Early Neolithic Farmers, and Yamnaya related Steppe ancestry and so are other Europeans. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/fig_tab/nature14317_F3.html

14359

The Mesolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers are called WHG nowadays. Early Neolithic Farmers are called ENF or EEF for Early European Farmers nowadays and were from Anatolia and went into Europe about 8,000 years ago. The Yamnaya were a population with a mix of EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer) and CHG (Caucasian Hunter Gatherer) and lived in the Eurasian Steppe then spread their culture and genetics about 4,500 years ago. It is hypothesized per Haak et al. 2015 that they are the people that spread the R1b-M269 subclades of R1b-L51 or R1b-L151 into western Europe.

Basques have the highest frequency of R1b-DF27, which is a subclade of R1b-L151, which is dated to about 4400 years before present (abt 2400 B.C.) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/) and DF27 has been found in a sample from 2431-2150 BC in Germany (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=185448&viewfull=1#post185448) and that sample was included in the Haak paper as a Bell Beaker and was one of the pieces of evidence for the hypothesis that Indo-European languages came from the Steppe. So DF27 Y-DNA and Steppe autosomal DNA likely entered the Basque gene pool after 2400 B.C. and maybe before Celtic was actually a language. I can't remember if there is an estimate of when Celtic would have been language of it's own.

There is also a recent Eurogenes thread about Steppe ancestry of regions of Iberia and it includes Basques at http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/qpadm-tour-of-iberia-and-france.html

There is going to be a paper out this year or next with 200 ancient samples (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/12/bell-beaker-behemoth-coming-real-soon.html) that include more Bell Beaker samples, as well as samples from other time periods, and once that paper is published we should know more about the genetics of the Basques and of people from other regions of Europe.

Webb
03-04-2017, 05:01 PM
Dubhthach said "placenames in the Spanish basque country points to them having Celtic origins" then he went on to say that "Migration of Basque (Proto-Basque?) speakers out of Aquitaine into" the area that had placenames with Celtic origins. So as rms2 stated, "Dubhthach did not say the Basques have Celtic origins"



We know from Haak et al. 2015 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html) that the Basque are a three way mixture of Paleolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers, Early Neolithic Farmers, and Yamnaya related Steppe ancestry and so are other Europeans. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/fig_tab/nature14317_F3.html

14359

The Paleolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers are called WHG nowadays and would be what were called Cromagnons at one time. They were in Europe first. Early Neolithic Farmers are called ENF or EEF for Early European Farmers nowadays and were from Anatolia and went into Europe about 8,000 years ago. The Yamnaya were a population with a mix of EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer) and CHG (Caucasian Hunter Gatherer) and lived in the Eurasian Steppe then spread their culture and genetics about 4,500 years ago. It is hypothesized per Haak et al. 2015 that they are the people that spread the R1b-M269 subclades of R1b-L51 or R1b-L151 into western Europe.

Basques have the highest frequency of R1b-DF27, which is a subclade of R1b-L151, which is dated to about 4400 years before present (abt 2400 B.C.) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF27/) and DF27 has been found in a sample from 2431-2150 BC in Germany (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8476-More-Bell-Beaker-U152-and-one-ZZ11&p=185448&viewfull=1#post185448) and that sample was included in the Haak paper as a Bell Beaker and was one of the pieces of evidence for the hypothesis that Indo-European languages came from the Steppe. So DF27 Y-DNA and Steppe autosomal DNA likely entered the Basque gene pool after 2400 B.C. and maybe before Celtic was actually a language. I can't remember if there is an estimate of when Celtic would have been language of it's own.

There is also a recent Eurogenes thread about Steppe ancestry of regions of Iberia and it includes Basques at http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/qpadm-tour-of-iberia-and-france.html

There is going to be a paper out this year or next with 200 ancient samples (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/12/bell-beaker-behemoth-coming-real-soon.html) that include more Bell Beaker samples, as well as samples from other time periods, and once that paper is published we should know more about the genetics of the Basques and of people from other regions of Europe.

I could hug you right now.

Romilius
03-04-2017, 05:31 PM
There is going to be a paper out this year or next with 200 ancient samples (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/12/bell-beaker-behemoth-coming-real-soon.html) that include more Bell Beaker samples, as well as samples from other time periods, and once that paper is published we should know more about the genetics of the Basques and of people from other regions of Europe.

This year or next? I read on the BB thread that Reich will present a lecture about that paper in this month (= March)... where did you hear that the paper will be delayed so much?

rms2
03-04-2017, 05:35 PM
This year or next? I read on the BB thread that Reich will present a lecture about that paper in this month (= March)... where did you hear that the paper will be delayed so much?

I believe ArmandoR1b was talking not about the BB paper but about Carles Lalueza-Fox's upcoming big Iberian dna paper. Different papers.

Update: Oops! I guess he was talking about the big BB paper! That one is expected sometime this month. Lalueza-Fox's paper is expected in 2018.

sweuro
03-04-2017, 05:54 PM
Indeed there is celtic place names in the spanish Basque Country. In fact, parts of what is now the Basque Country were celtic tribes, like the Varduli

ArmandoR1b
03-04-2017, 06:44 PM
This year or next? I read on the BB thread that Reich will present a lecture about that paper in this month (= March)... where did you hear that the paper will be delayed so much?


I believe ArmandoR1b was talking not about the BB paper but about Carles Lalueza-Fox's upcoming big Iberian dna paper. Different papers.

Update: Oops! I guess he was talking about the big BB paper! That one is expected sometime this month. Lalueza-Fox's paper is expected in 2018.

Sorry, I couldn't remember exactly when it was going to be published so I was trying to generalize. Of course, you guys are right, Davidski did quote Jean Manco as saying "a couple of months" and that is also in her post on Dec 2, 2016 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=200566#post200566) I'm not sure if the Lalueza-Fox paper is what caused me to not remember when the paper was going to be published. It is possible.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-04-2017, 06:51 PM
The Paleolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers are called WHG nowadays and would be what were called Cromagnons..

WHG is not "Cro-Magnon". Those groups went extinct and were replaced by WHG.

ArmandoR1b
03-04-2017, 07:48 PM
The Paleolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers are called WHG nowadays and would be what were called Cromagnons..

WHG is not "Cro-Magnon". Those groups went extinct and were replaced by WHG.

Thanks. I deleted that and changed Paleolithic to Mesolithic.

sweuro
03-04-2017, 07:57 PM
Thanks. I deleted that and changed Paleolithic to Mesolithic.
Not necesarily mesolithic. Bichon, Villabruna or El Miron are paleoltihic samples but are genetically WHG-like.

ArmandoR1b
03-04-2017, 08:58 PM
Not necesarily mesolithic. Bichon, Villabruna or El Miron are paleoltihic samples but are genetically WHG-like.

I hadn't really paid much attention to those specific specimens before as far as how WHG like they are since they are further back in time than the Mesolithic. I just found this in the Lazaridis 2016 pre-print (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311) "WHG are a mix of EHG and the Upper Paleolithic Bichon from Switzerland" which agrees with your affirmation there is some continuity from the Paleolithic into the Mesolithic WHG and good to know. I was partially correct by accident and not purposely.

ArmandoR1b
03-04-2017, 09:32 PM
The Paleolithic Western European Hunter Gatherers are called WHG nowadays and would be what were called Cromagnons..

WHG is not "Cro-Magnon". Those groups went extinct and were replaced by WHG.


Thanks. I deleted that and changed Paleolithic to Mesolithic.

I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to find specifics. I went to Ancestral Journeys and it has Peştera cu Oase and Kostenki 14 in the Paleolithic DNA section (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml) and they are both listed as Cro-Magnon in the Wikipedia site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon) and are older than the first Cro-Magnon to be found from Les Eyzies, Dordogne, France which is from 27,680 ± 270 BP. So Cro-Magnon is Paleolithic. Correct? Maybe too old to be similar to Bichon, due to drift and so on, although I would imagine that Bichon had ancestors that were close relatives of Cro-Magnon.

jeanL
03-04-2017, 09:47 PM
Indeed there is celtic place names in the spanish Basque Country. In fact, parts of what is now the Basque Country were celtic tribes, like the Varduli

The Varduli have never been proven to have been IE speaking, let alone Celtic. Most place names with IE etymology are in what is now modern day Alava, and it makes sense since their southern neighbors (Berones) were IE/CeltIberian speaking.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Vardulos,_Caristios_y_Autrigones.jpg/320px-Vardulos,_Caristios_y_Autrigones.jpg

In fact, the territories of modern day Vizcaya(minus Encartaciones) and Guipuzcoa had the following city names: "Vesperies", "Menosca", "Morogi".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Vardulos_y_Caristios.jpg/320px-Vardulos_y_Caristios.jpg

Ryukendo
03-04-2017, 10:26 PM
I'm going to repost one of my posts in the other thread, since it contains some evidence that may impinge on our conception of the process through which R1b entered the gene pool of the ancestors of the Basques:



Hi All
I would like to share with you this plot generated by Matt from Eurogenes. There are certain phenomena that are extremely striking:

http://i.imgur.com/Mio3LWa.png

The most interesting thing to me is how the BA Western European R1b pops (German Beakers and Rathlin) are very similar to Basque and Sardinian in overall genome-wide composition (IBS) such that Basque and Sardinian almost top the IBS similarity to BB Europeans among all the Europeans, only narrowly edged out by populations from the Celtic fringe, but then this similarity plunges for haplotype sharing, where Basque and Sardinian shares quite simply the least number of haplotypes with the BB European pops, even less than Greeks, Sicilians and Finnish...

This suggests that the overall ancestry composition of Basque and Sardinian is unusually close to BB Europeans but the actual number of shared persons in the combined family tree of BB and modern Europeans, i.e. real geneological links or contributions of genetic segments between BB European and Basque and Sardinian individuals is even less than that number between BB and Finns/Greeks(!). Contrast this with the situation for Balynahatty. Perhaps this also alludes to the fact that the Neolithic ancestry of German BB has less to do with that of the Basque and Sardinian than we think, such that Russian and French and Greeks are much more similar to BB by haplotype sharing than expected and the Basque and Sardinian much less than expected as some of that is mediated by common Neolithic ancestry between BB and IE Europeans not shared by Basque and Sardinian. In other words, the difference between IE Europeans and Basque/Sardinian is not just in the Yamnaya/directly steppe-derived portion of the ancestry, IE Europeans are distinguished by similarities in Neolithic ancestry as well.

There have been some who think that BB wasn't IE speaking, but this really counts against that, since BB (or at least the Rathlin genomes insofar as they are representative of BB ) is genealogically much less related to Sardinian and Basque despite the high levels of R1b found among the latter; i.e. the introduction of the R1b haplogroup into the ancestors of the Basques, before its drift (or culturally-/socially-driven increase) to near-fixation among them, involved a very small autosomal contribution/small number of migrants, such that the number of genetic segments tying the two populations (Rathlin and Basque) together is very low in comparison to the number between Rathlin and even distant IE speaking Europeans like Greeks and Russians.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-05-2017, 12:35 AM
I'm going to repost one of my posts in the other thread, since it contains some evidence that may impinge on our conception of the process through which R1b entered the gene pool of the ancestors of the Basques:

I think Matt's post ("There have been some who think that BB wasn't IE speaking") should be taken cautiously, as we don't yet have all Bell Beaker samples, eg from Iberia, north Italy, France, Britain.
It might be wrong to assume a single universal language.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-05-2017, 12:42 AM
I'm not trying to argue here, just trying to find specifics. I went to Ancestral Journeys and it has Peştera cu Oase and Kostenki 14 in the Paleolithic DNA section (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml) and they are both listed as Cro-Magnon in the Wikipedia site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon) and are older than the first Cro-Magnon to be found from Les Eyzies, Dordogne, France which is from 27,680 ± 270 BP. So Cro-Magnon is Paleolithic. Correct? Maybe too old to be similar to Bichon, due to drift and so on, although I would imagine that Bichon had ancestors that were close relatives of Cro-Magnon.

Any sample older than 14kya went extinct. Bichon, Villabruna, and a couple others are Epipaleolithic. This is the first evidence of WHG replacing the previous population. Oase-1 and Kostenki aren't even the same group either. Oase-1 people disappeared, then Aurignacian, Gravettian, and Magdalenians all disappeared.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-05-2017, 12:51 AM
Any sample older than 14kya went extinct. Bichon, Villabruna, and a couple others are Epipaleolithic. This is the first evidence of WHG replacing the previous population. Oase-1 and Kostenki aren't even the same group either. Oase-1 people disappeared, then Aurignacian, Gravettian, and Magdalenians all disappeared.

However, Villabruna cluster probably expanded from Europe (including Anatolia). Autosomally, Fu et al state it is of the same met-population origins as Vestonice and Aurignacians; and the I and U5b which dominated (at least its western segment) were all already in Europe. Goyet , El Miron contributed to west European WHG.

The only thing which is new is the appearance of r1b.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-05-2017, 01:08 AM
A sister branch that split probably 35-40kya. Some flow is possibly seen in Gravettian, but it's small and still a minority in Magdalenians. This sister group thing could be an artifact of early Admixture from UP Europe into West Asia, before WHG expands, bringing U8>K lines into play. WHG can be modeled as UP plus ANE. WHG could be mostly the West Eurasian side of ANE too. There's many models that work. Clearly though, WHG is quite distinct and not a full direct descendant.

Chad Rohlfsen
03-05-2017, 01:10 AM
I think the scenario I laid out to you is plausible, but we need stuff from West Asia between 40-15 kya.

sweuro
03-05-2017, 02:08 AM
WHG Loschbour was described as deriving 15% of it's ancesstry from a Goyet-like population :

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yU2VF4ImORE/V18UlGwIXxI/AAAAAAAAE9o/6xLtOFRcA8MMPbSvuXAimZyn_Q2oJnDnwCLcB/s1600/nature17993-f4.jpg

Chad Rohlfsen
03-05-2017, 02:32 AM
Loschbour and almost twice that in LaBrana. Goyet people were gone though. I plan on re-examining that one soon.

kevingnet
03-06-2017, 11:42 PM
You said everything explaining nothing. The question is about the R1b in Basques, not if they were the first or not to arrive in Iberia. And Dubhthach is right: the Basque Country has Celtic placenames.

"You said everything explaining nothing" I think that by having a little sense of humor, communication can be enhanced, I didn't mean to attack the OP with my comment, it was in good spirits. Sorry if that offended your sensibilities.

"The question is about the R1b in Basques, not if they were the first or not to arrive in Iberia" Yes, I understood the question, my point which I didn't explain in detail, since I'd assumed it would be understood by implication was that, weather or not they arrived first would have weight about how they acquired their R1b, since it's very high. There's a lot of missing data regarding this, that I don't know about. For instance, if they arrived first, *and* they didn't mix too much with other populations, they, they must have already carried it, and if so, then how come R1b is not too old comparing to how long Basques have been in the area. Otoh, if they mixed and acquired it, then their percentage is too high and it corresponds to similar percentages with north Spain. So, those are interesting (to me) things to consider. I'm not saying I know the reasons, I'm still trying to put the puzzle together. I find this whole thing fascinating. Don't you?

"And Dubhthach is right: the Basque Country has Celtic placenames." Yes, he is certainly right, that has been abundantly documented. So what?! I never confronted that piece of information or even debated it. What is your point here about this?

Romilius
03-07-2017, 11:08 AM
"You said everything explaining nothing" I think that by having a little sense of humor, communication can be enhanced, I didn't mean to attack the OP with my comment, it was in good spirits. Sorry if that offended your sensibilities.

"The question is about the R1b in Basques, not if they were the first or not to arrive in Iberia" Yes, I understood the question, my point which I didn't explain in detail, since I'd assumed it would be understood by implication was that, weather or not they arrived first would have weight about how they acquired their R1b, since it's very high. There's a lot of missing data regarding this, that I don't know about. For instance, if they arrived first, *and* they didn't mix too much with other populations, they, they must have already carried it, and if so, then how come R1b is not too old comparing to how long Basques have been in the area. Otoh, if they mixed and acquired it, then their percentage is too high and it corresponds to similar percentages with north Spain. So, those are interesting (to me) things to consider. I'm not saying I know the reasons, I'm still trying to put the puzzle together. I find this whole thing fascinating. Don't you?

"And Dubhthach is right: the Basque Country has Celtic placenames." Yes, he is certainly right, that has been abundantly documented. So what?! I never confronted that piece of information or even debated it. What is your point here about this?

My comment was humourous... I don't know if Basques arrived first or not in Iberia, what we see, indeed, is that we start from the today data in order to go deep in ancestry... well... I think it's a wrong assumption: we must begin with the past, in order to arrive to present days. That assumption, become dogma, is that if Basque are R1b, so everybody with R1b are of Basque origin and R1b originated with the Basques in Iberia: proofs? On the other hand, that dogma brought people to do unscientific things, like to separate Yamna culture from IE language only because it was found R1b instead of R1a in ancient remains. Are we serious?

The fact is that I don't understand what pride is there behind an Iberian origin of R1b: even if it is true, if I were a R1b person, I would defend a different origin for my haplogroup: everybody doesn't want to be the victim of the history.

Another thing that characterize some iberianists and some R1a-nazi-IE-only-connection, really unscientifically: we have a sort of Basque mistery in South-Central Asia, i.e. the Burusho. Why on the earth nobody dares to put in doubt R1a-IE connection based on the fact that Burusho, exactly as Basques, speak an isolate language and are overwhelmingly R1a? Why? Why Basques must be different? Is it a political issue? If so, well... I surrender: science and politics don't agree and I'm more prone to hear science's reasons... not politics' ones.

So, you can understand that my problem isn't the link between R1b and Basques, but the manner and the stubborn behaviour of "everything is Iberian and Basque" or "R1a over all and others are languages shifters".

kevingnet
03-08-2017, 02:51 AM
My comment was humourous... I don't know if Basques arrived first or not in Iberia, what we see, indeed, is that we start from the today data in order to go deep in ancestry... well... I think it's a wrong assumption: we must begin with the past, in order to arrive to present days. That assumption, become dogma, is that if Basque are R1b, so everybody with R1b are of Basque origin and R1b originated with the Basques in Iberia: proofs? On the other hand, that dogma brought people to do unscientific things, like to separate Yamna culture from IE language only because it was found R1b instead of R1a in ancient remains. Are we serious?

The fact is that I don't understand what pride is there behind an Iberian origin of R1b: even if it is true, if I were a R1b person, I would defend a different origin for my haplogroup: everybody doesn't want to be the victim of the history.

Another thing that characterize some iberianists and some R1a-nazi-IE-only-connection, really unscientifically: we have a sort of Basque mistery in South-Central Asia, i.e. the Burusho. Why on the earth nobody dares to put in doubt R1a-IE connection based on the fact that Burusho, exactly as Basques, speak an isolate language and are overwhelmingly R1a? Why? Why Basques must be different? Is it a political issue? If so, well... I surrender: science and politics don't agree and I'm more prone to hear science's reasons... not politics' ones.

So, you can understand that my problem isn't the link between R1b and Basques, but the manner and the stubborn behaviour of "everything is Iberian and Basque" or "R1a over all and others are languages shifters".

"My comment was humourous." It's not always easy to tell from this media. I'm glad we agree on the humor part.

"I don't know if Basques arrived first or not in Iberia" This is very true, I don't think anyone knows this. What is known is that the language is not IE, and that they in fact share quite a bit of DNA with the rest of that region in Europe.

"That assumption, become dogma, is that if Basque are R1b, so everybody with R1b are of Basque origin and R1b originated with the Basques in Iberia: proofs? " True again, imo, again, unknown. I've read somewhere that some believe that their language may have had its origins in south east France in the Pyrenees region. They found many old houses with proto Basque names prior to what was found in the current Basque regions. So this is going to be an interesting puzzle to crack.

"The fact is that I don't understand what pride is there behind an Iberian origin of R1b: even if it is true, if I were a R1b person, I would defend a different origin for my haplogroup: everybody doesn't want to be the victim of the history." Here, I think that I may understand the perceived pride. I'll go out on a limb and say that the reason for this has to do with the other faction in opposition. More specifically, in previous generations, mad men, such as Mr. Hitler, made such a big deal of what a true European is supposed to be and went kind of far in these assumptions, that a true European is one with fair skin and blue eyes and such things. Because of recent genetic findings, the understanding that not just Europeans but all peoples of the world are a hell of a lot more related not only genetically, than we thought, I see it as a triumph of reason over bullshit. My personal opinion is that my pride is not really about thinking I'm better than you, specially me being of mixed ethnicity, but more about being able to rebut others' beliefs about a perceived superiority of one group or the other. Let me give you an example, and note that I don't believe that racism is something unique to Europeans, I think all groups have the capacity and many have demonstrated historically that they would cause evil to other groups. Go back to the time of Egypt, I can only assume that in those days the people who were considered superior must have been Africans, and that some of they must have perceived themselves as superior to others, same with Aztecs (Mexicans) in Mexico, or Incas in Peru, perhaps in not exactly the same ways, for different circumstances. So, superiority, perhaps is thought of as military might or cultural dominance or even beauty, or pick any other group of traits. I think that circumstances vary across time so as to change the perceived superiority of one group over others. I don't see it as something intrinsic in genetics, although of course genetics might confer some advantages via evolution as to being better adapted to the current conditions. For instance, you would be inferior to a person native to north Alaska at living under those conditions, most likely. Likewise, they would not be as adaptable to conditions in a rain forest, although this is even more likely than the former.

So, you were right, this gets very political and just full of stupidity, I mean just trying to explain this makes me feel stupid. I think these things should be obvious. Unfortunately I'm more of a cynic than an idealist these days. Therefore the apparent need to explain it to those of us of more difficult understanding.

"Why? Why Basques must be different?" Why?! Because they're awesome! cuz I'm partly Basque! :-)

"So, you can understand that my problem isn't the link between R1b and Basques, but the manner and the stubborn behaviour" I'd agree with you on this as well. I think there's a lot of information to be found regarding this. One thing though is that, recently I'd been studying about Spanish history and knowing about that it yields some interesting thoughts regarding how Basque fit in Iberia overall. I don't thing genetically they're anything too special, it's simply that because it's more or less a recent development and interest taken because of their language. It's also interesting if one looks at linguistic history as well. Being a Spanish speaker, I believe that Spanish, even though it is a IE language, that only explains part of the story. Iow, it is not, only partially. The language that was spoken in the peninsula permeated other cultures, so much so that many of the sounds are currently spoken by Basques and by other groups, including Castillian, Portuguese, etc...

r_r_abril
03-08-2017, 03:28 PM
1) The fact is, the word "Iberian" ("ibérico") is rarely used in Spain in identitarian contexts. It is more often employed in geography ("Península Ibérica") or biology ("lince ibérico"). Spanish people tend to use the words "España" and "español" to describe themselves.

2) In my opinion, this discussion has more to do with Basque nationalism than with a certain "Iberian supremacism". Historically, many Basque scholars like José Miguel de Barandiarán, Koldo Mitxelena, have traditionally considered, that Basque language was spoken all over Western Europe before the arrival of the proto-indoeuropean invaders, and Basque culture is the legitimate heir of the Old European culture that Marija Gimbutas described in some of her works.

3) The first written testimonies of the Basque language in the Iberian Penisula date from the High Middle Ages. Proto-basque/Aquitanian inscriptions have only been found in South Western France so far.

Romilius
03-08-2017, 08:27 PM
1) The fact is, the word "Iberian" ("ibérico") is rarely used in Spain in identitarian contexts. It is more often employed in geography ("Península Ibérica") or biology ("lince ibérico"). Spanish people tend to use the words "España" and "español" to describe themselves.

2) In my opinion, this discussion has more to do with Basque nationalism than with a certain "Iberian supremacism". Historically, many Basque scholars like José Miguel de Barandiarán, Koldo Mitxelena, have traditionally considered, that Basque language was spoken all over Western Europe before the arrival of the proto-indoeuropean invaders, and Basque culture is the legitimate heir of the Old European culture that Marija Gimbutas described in some of her works.

3) The first written testimonies of the Basque language in the Iberian Penisula date from the High Middle Ages. Proto-basque/Aquitanian inscriptions have only been found in South Western France so far.

I'm sorry, but... if first testimonies of Basque in Iberian Peninsula are from only the High Middle Ages (very late period), then it must occur a great deal of stubborn behaviour to state that the language is Paleolithic and widespread all over Europe before Indoeuropeans... and, of course, to be heirs of an Old Europe that collapsed at the first difficulty... what a pride! I mean... what I gain if I discover myself being the heir of the victims of history? Where is the pride here? But also after the Bronze age... what pride is in being lead everytime by foreigners, first Romans, then Visigoths et cetera? Please, will someone be so kind to explain me this? Because I don't understand...

sweuro
03-08-2017, 08:54 PM
I'm sorry, but... if first testimonies of Basque in Iberian Peninsula are from only the High Middle Ages (very late period), then it must occur a great deal of stubborn behaviour to state that the language is Paleolithic and widespread all over Europe before Indoeuropeans...
That's because there is Vasconic topnymia in many parts of Europe, that has made scholars think there was a proto-Vasconic sopken before IE. For example the basque word ibai (ibáy; "river") this roots are found in different rivers of Europe. In Serbia we found the river Ibar. In Hessen the river Ibra. In southern Germany two rivers Ebrach , and many rivers Eberbäche. Ebesberg in the Alps. In Austria the river Ybbs. In France we find Ivergny, Iverny, Yvré-l'évêque, Ébréon, Évrune, Ebersheim, Yvry-en-montagne in the Basque Country Ibarra, Ibarrola, Ibarrekolanda, Ibardin, Aranibar. And obviously the river Ebro which comes from the prerroman Iber , that eventually became the name of the Iberians and the Peninsula

rms2
03-08-2017, 09:37 PM
That's because there is Vasconic topnymia in many parts of Europe, that has made scholars think there was a proto-Vasconic sopken before IE. For example the basque word ibai (ibáy; "river") this roots are found in different rivers of Europe. In Serbia we found the river Ibar. In Hessen the river Ibra. In southern Germany two rivers Ebrach , and many rivers Eberbäche. Ebesberg in the Alps. In Austria the river Ybbs. In France we find Ivergny, Iverny, Yvré-l'évêque, Ébréon, Évrune, Ebersheim, Yvry-en-montagne in the Basque Country Ibarra, Ibarrola, Ibarrekolanda, Ibardin, Aranibar. And obviously the river Ebro which comes from the prerroman Iber , that eventually became the name of the Iberians and the Peninsula

That I think is based on Vennemann's ideas, which I believe have largely been discredited by linguists.

Ravai
03-09-2017, 10:49 AM
That's because there is Vasconic topnymia in many parts of Europe, that has made scholars think there was a proto-Vasconic sopken before IE. For example the basque word ibai (ibáy; "river") this roots are found in different rivers of Europe. In Serbia we found the river Ibar. In Hessen the river Ibra. In southern Germany two rivers Ebrach , and many rivers Eberbäche. Ebesberg in the Alps. In Austria the river Ybbs. In France we find Ivergny, Iverny, Yvré-l'évêque, Ébréon, Évrune, Ebersheim, Yvry-en-montagne in the Basque Country Ibarra, Ibarrola, Ibarrekolanda, Ibardin, Aranibar. And obviously the river Ebro which comes from the prerroman Iber , that eventually became the name of the Iberians and the Peninsula

The etymology of my surname also comes from the movement of water. But more for the rav* rava* base than for -bai.

http://famiglia-rabai.blogspot.com.es/p/etimologia-del-apellido-rabai-ravai-o.html

Regards

David

Webb
03-09-2017, 03:06 PM
M153, the DF27 downstream snp most commonly found in the Basque, was formed 2800 ybp, according to Yfull. So around 800 B.C. How many descendants would Mr. M153 have today? Just to put this into perspective. 1 billion, 1 million? A little more or a little less. I think using distribution and density of snps found in any modern population can be a little misleading.

Ricardo Canedo
08-22-2017, 05:00 PM
The more likely explanation for R1b among the Basques is that sometime in history an Indo-European speaker tribe of males invaded and conquered the Basque Country and having brought no women with them married with the local women who raised the children on their language and culture instead of the one of the fathers this makes sense because none of the Mtdna haplogorups among the Basques can be linked with the Indo-Europeans.

Tomenable
11-22-2018, 10:26 AM
What do we know about this Y-SNP (I think it was found in one of 1000 Genomes Spaniards, sample HG01606)?:

FGC31062

Webb
11-23-2018, 01:24 PM
What do we know about this Y-SNP (I think it was found in one of 1000 Genomes Spaniards, sample HG01606)?:

FGC31062

According to Ian McDonald, the age of this block at Ytree is 1766 AD.

Michał
11-23-2018, 10:26 PM
According to Ian McDonald, the age of this block at Ytree is 1766 AD.
This seems impossible. Could you please provide a link to this TMRCA estimation fro R-FGC31062?

Webb
11-24-2018, 05:47 AM
This seems impossible. Could you please provide a link to this TMRCA estimation fro R-FGC31062?

Why does this seem impossible? L617, which is two blocks back up the tree is 247AD.

http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php

Michał
11-24-2018, 10:14 AM
Why does this seem impossible? L617, which is two blocks back up the tree is 247AD.

http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php
Your link doesn't work for me.
According to Iain McDonald, the MRCA for clade L617 lived about 1767 BC, so about 3800 years ago.
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html
And according to YFull, the TMRCA age for L617 is about 3700 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Subclade FGC31062 includes only 5 common SNPs under L617, so its TMRCA age is likely about 3000 years, or slightly more.

Volat
11-24-2018, 10:21 AM
Michal! I know you know few things about R1a among east European populations.
My Y-chr is R1a-Z92. Further down I don't know.
Is our subclade under Z280 European or we are an odd group in eastern Europe?

Volat
11-24-2018, 10:51 AM
YSEQ may give me a terminating SNIP. I released my genetic material not to find my haplogroup or population to which I belong
I wanted to find my relatives.

Michal! Kazakhstan is a diverse ethnic country. It attracted Poles of Belarus & Lithuania, Belarusians, Ukranians, Russians, Pontic Greek, north caucasusians , Germans of Volga and Caucasus. Pontic Greeks and Latgalians, Lithuanians, Estonians.Whom not? All Europeans were integrated into Russian culture. All are Russian speakers today.

One of my relative lives in northern Kazahsatan near Petrovavlovsk city.I found her brother though my Y-DNA. Their parents migrated during Stolypin reforms in early 1900s.

I also have Polish relatives. Being north-eastern Belarusian I dislike having anything to do with Poles despite Kościuszko was born in Brest region (likely south-western Belarusian by descent) and Mickiewicz near Navahrudak. We all used Polish to write back in the days. If you read his poems and poetries, he was describing what is today Belarus and eastern Lithuania.

Michał
11-24-2018, 10:59 AM
Michal! I know you know few things about R1a among east European populations.
My Y-chr is R1a-Z92. Further down I don't know.
Is our subclade under Z280 European or we are an odd group in eastern Europe?
You should ask this question in another thread :)

Volat
11-24-2018, 11:19 AM
You should ask this question in another thread :)
In the past, when Polish-Commonwealth was divided we had many Ashkenazi Jews deceiving Belarusian farmers. Russian authorities seeing this considering us brothers and sisters were giving hard times to Jews for doing this.
This is true.
I don't know why my country men and women like the Russians. :)

Volat
11-24-2018, 11:42 AM
-------------------

Webb
11-27-2018, 01:04 AM
Your link doesn't work for me.
According to Iain McDonald, the MRCA for clade L617 lived about 1767 BC, so about 3800 years ago.
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html
And according to YFull, the TMRCA age for L617 is about 3700 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Subclade FGC31062 includes only 5 common SNPs under L617, so its TMRCA age is likely about 3000 years, or slightly more.

I’m not saying it’s correct or not but Ytree, using McDonald’s age calculation is different than what is on his website.

DF27-2565BC
ZZ12-2227BC
Z2552-1040BC
L617-247AD

British Cluster
FGC14951-256AD

Spanish Cluster
FGC31068- No Age

Spanish Cluster just under FGC31068, 2 kits
FGC31062- 1766AD

Z2552 is not a very large group compared to other DF27 subclades.

Michał
11-27-2018, 09:29 AM
I’m not saying it’s correct or not but Ytree, using McDonald’s age calculation is different than what is on his website.

Could you please give us a link to that Ytree page where the TMRCA age for L617 is supposed to be 247 AD?

Webb
11-27-2018, 01:59 PM
Could you please give us a link to that Ytree page where the TMRCA age for L617 is supposed to be 247 AD?

This is a link to the block tree. Just click the block itself to see the date estimate. For some reason creating a link to the block age estimation doesn't work.
Also please note that, YP4295, which is just below Z2552 has an age estimation of 282BC. DF81, which is also just below Z2552 is 180BC. None of them are that old.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=618

Michał
11-27-2018, 02:14 PM
This is a link to the block tree. Just click the block itself to see the date estimate. For some reason creating a link to the block age estimation doesn't work.

Yes, something is apparently wrong with those estimates.



Also please note that, YP4295, which is just below Z2552 has an age estimation of 282BC. DF81, which is also just below Z2552 is 180BC. None of them are that old.

I guess you meant: None of them are that young.

Webb
11-27-2018, 02:22 PM
Yes, something is apparently wrong with those estimates.


I guess you meant: None of them are that young.

No, I mean what I said. In relation to each other, each block directly under Z2552, are not that old. The oldest block and the youngest block differ by around 550 years. In relation to the age of DF27 itself, Z2552 being 1040BC is really not that old.

razyn
11-27-2018, 03:50 PM
And btw I believe Webb is using "not that old" in the idiomatic sense, meaning not particularly old -- not meaning "not as old as the referenced McDonald estimates."

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:26 PM
According to Ian McDonald, the age of this block at Ytree is 1766 AD.

My father has 24 private SNPs, is it consistent with such recent age?

By the way, YFull has added our sample as just L617* (not FGC31062):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4959-Z2552-(DF81-L617-YP4295-and-Z15001)&p=522640&viewfull=1#post522640

https://i.imgur.com/vgGtSmq.png

^^^
The analysis is finished (I'm only waiting for TMRCA, "Age estimation").

Why aren't we added under M225 but as L617* - that's a bit confusing?

ADW_1981
12-03-2018, 05:54 AM
The more likely explanation for R1b among the Basques is that sometime in history an Indo-European speaker tribe of males invaded and conquered the Basque Country and having brought no women with them married with the local women who raised the children on their language and culture instead of the one of the fathers this makes sense because none of the Mtdna haplogorups among the Basques can be linked with the Indo-Europeans.

I'm not even certain they were in Spain at the time, they may have been considered Aquitanians who inhabited France prior to the advance of the Romans. Even then, who knows how they spoke a non-IE langauge or how this came about. I'm not convinced that languages were tightly linked with IE customs, but I certainly don't consider myself an expert. I just don't see the rationalization of it all. Certainly if I was living back then as a warrior, I wouldn't really be concerned with language, especially if I was marrying women in an outgroup. The women raising the children, and the men defending the clan seems like the main priority. I could see in certain circumstances that the language of a female outgroup could become dominant. (boohoo if it sounds chauvinistic)

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 06:00 AM
R1b-M269 was probably in Poland before it got to Spain or Britain:

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

I4251/RISE1122/grave no. 7: 2837-2672 BCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926). Male inhumation burial (25-30 years) with northwest-southeast orientation, located on the left side. The grave goods consisted of two vessels (bowl and unornamented cup), a flint blade dagger and a flint scraper. [R1b1a1a2 + H1]

^^^
This is the oldest known R1b from Poland so far, AFAIK.

Bell Beaker from Samborzec, in South-Eastern Poland:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samborzec

=====

The oldest R1b from Britain is few centuries younger than RISE1122:

https://i.imgur.com/TsNYJbw.png

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 06:14 AM
There is also RISE1 (dated to 2865-2578 BCE) from Oblaczkowo, in my region.

It was reported as R1 and later R1b, although I remember that it was disputed because it is a Corded Ware individual, and probably the oldest one.

R1b samples from Samborzec and Oblaczkowo seem to be older than R1a Corded Ware expansion.

ArmandoR1b
12-03-2018, 07:05 AM
My father has 24 private SNPs, is it consistent with such recent age?

By the way, YFull has added our sample as just L617* (not FGC31062):

Why aren't we added under M225 but as L617* - that's a bit confusing?
No, it isn't consistent. There is a problem with the Iain McDonald calculation which shows Age analysis lasted updated 2017-10-03. It looks like it was a preliminary calculation without enough data.

Your father is positive for L617 and no-call, or negative, for F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 which is why he is not under M225.

YFull doesn't have a lot of kits that FTDNA has so YFull didn't use FGC31062 or FGC31068. YFull is currently on v6.08.00 (02 December 2018). For the next update you should be in a subclade of L617 and HG01606 should be downstream of you since he is positive for subclades that you are not. It remains to be seen if YFull ends up using FGC31062 but they most likely will.

The tree at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=842 doesn't use F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 and the FTDNA tree at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC31062 doesn't use 1000 Genomes kits such as HG01606.

If you go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/big-y and in the Named Variants tab select Show All under Derived? then search for F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 you probably have no result for most and No, meaning negative, for F1225.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 07:13 AM
For the next update you should be in a subclade of L617 and HG01606 should be downstream of you

Interesting, so apparently my branch is ancestral or basal to this Iberian branch, not the other way around?

ArmandoR1b
12-03-2018, 07:22 AM
Interesting, so apparently my branch is ancestral or basal to this Iberian branch, not the other way around?

You are on a different branch than HG01606 with L617 and FGC31062 in common. The common ancestor was basal to both of you. The use of the term basal is used incorrectly quite frequently.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 07:26 AM
HG01606 is from the Valencian Community, if I remember correctly.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 07:34 AM
The more likely explanation for R1b among the Basques is that sometime in history an Indo-European speaker tribe of males invaded and conquered the Basque Country and having brought no women with them married with the local women who raised the children on their language and culture instead of the one of the fathers this makes sense because none of the Mtdna haplogorups among the Basques can be linked with the Indo-Europeans.

Or, perhaps, the Proto-Basques, and their language, originated in the Steppe?

Maybe Proto-Basques invaded Europe at roughly the same time as PIEs?

If some people (like that Carlos Quiles) claim that Corded Ware spoke Proto-Uralic, then claiming that Yamnaya spoke Proto-Vasconic does not seem that crazy or far-fetched in comparison.

Ruderico
12-03-2018, 09:47 AM
If some people (like that Carlos Quiles) claim that Corded Ware spoke Proto-Uralic, then claiming that Yamnaya spoke Proto-Vasconic does not seem that crazy or far-fetched in comparison.

Two wrongs don't make a right

Michał
12-03-2018, 09:52 AM
There is also RISE1 (dated to 2865-2578 BCE) from Oblaczkowo, in my region.
It was reported as R1 and later R1b, although I remember that it was disputed because it is a Corded Ware individual, and probably the oldest one.

Its R1b status has been indeed questioned, but this is not because this was a CWC individual, but because the authors described this particular sample as "one of the worse quality samples in the dataset". Importantly, it shows just one positive call (in one read) for all known mutations under R1, and there are no negative results for any mutations defining R1a (or any mutations equivalent to or upstream of R1a-M417).

Michał
12-03-2018, 10:15 AM
YFull doesn't have a lot of kits that FTDNA has so YFull didn't use FGC31062 or FGC31068.

You are on a different branch than HG01606 with L617 and FGC31062 in common.
Since Big Tree shows HG01606 as positive for at least five known mutations under L617 (FGC31068, FGC31070, FGC31062, FGC31072, FGC31069, all of them shared with Tomenable), while YFull tree shows both these samples as sharing no SNPs under L617, one of those two trees must be definitely wrong in this respect. The question is which one.

Tomenable, if you have joined the R-DF27 group at YFull, you should be able to determine whether HG01606 is indeed negative for all those five SNPs under L617.

ArmandoR1b
12-03-2018, 11:37 AM
Since Big Tree shows HG01606 as positive for at least five known mutations under L617 (FGC31068, FGC31070, FGC31062, FGC31072, FGC31069, all of them shared with Tomenable), while YFull tree shows both these samples as sharing no SNPs under L617, one of those two trees must be definitely wrong in this respect. The question is which one.

Tomenable, if you have joined the R-DF27 group at YFull, you should be able to determine whether HG01606 is indeed negative for all those five SNPs under L617.

The reason that YFull tree shows both these samples as sharing no SNPs under L617 is likely due to two reasons but mainly the YFull tree doesn't show the correct placement of a new customer until the YFull tree has had an update after the BigY analysis has been complete. The YFull tree just had an update and the BigY analysis for his father probably wasn't complete by the time the YFull tree was complete.

YFull didn't use FGC31068, FGC31070, FGC31062, FGC31072, and FGC31069. You can see for yourself by using https://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/ Again, that will likely change once the update takes place.

F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 don't show up in at all in at www.ytree.net which is likely due to BigY not testing those positions.

Once the YFull tree is updated this will likely be clear. If his membership with the R-DF27 group at YFull is able to clear that up before then that's even better.

I had specified L617 and FGC31062 as branches and is the only reason that I hadn't specified FGC31068, FGC31070, FGC31072, and FGC31069. FTDNA has all of them at https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree/ and since FGC31062 is a "terminal" branch at FTDNA then his father is positive, or at least presumed so, for all of them as is HG01606 and N45914. Therefore the SNPs in question are F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 because they aren't in the FTDNA tree and they aren't in YTree. They also don't show up as result at FTDNA, except for F1225, in the kit that I looked at.

Additionally, M225 is hg38 position 13480153 and it isn't in the Ytree results of kits of HG01606 (http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=926) and N45914 (http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=1449)

ArmandoR1b
12-03-2018, 12:15 PM
Or, perhaps, the Proto-Basques, and their language, originated in the Steppe?

Maybe Proto-Basques invaded Europe at roughly the same time as PIEs?


We will never know where the Proto-Basque language comes from because it isn't attested prior to Roman times. So some people that want to continue discussing the origin of the language will never be satisfied.

What we do have is a specimen, I6539, positive for P312, not tested for DF27, with Steppe ancestry dated to 2500–2000 BCE from Humanejos, Madrid, a specimen, I5665, positive for P312 with Steppe ancestry dated to 2280–1984 calBCE from Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos and a specimen positive for DF27 with Steppe ancestry in a Late Bronze Age burial from Cueva de los Lagos is located in Aguilar del río Alhama, La Rioja.

Since Basques have both a high percentage of DF27 and a significant amount of Steppe ancestry and since P312 and DF27 have been in Iberia since the Bronze Age in relatively close proximity, compared to the whole of Iberia and the rest of Europe, to the Basque Country it is only logical that Basques descend from the people with DF27 and Steppe ancestry that entered Iberia in the Bronze Age.

There will be more data for these discussions once the specimens from Spain are released by Olalde from his study of The genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the last 8000 years (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/isba-2018-abstracts.html) and the French specimens (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=519892&viewfull=1#post519892) are released by Brunel.

GASKA
12-03-2018, 01:06 PM
We will never know where the Proto-Basque language comes from because it isn't attested prior to Roman times. So some people that want to continue discussing the origin of the language will never be satisfied.

What we do have is a specimen, I6539, positive for P312, not tested for DF27, with Steppe ancestry dated to 2500–2000 BCE from Humanejos, Madrid, a specimen, I5665, positive for P312 with Steppe ancestry dated to 2280–1984 calBCE from Virgazal, Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos and a specimen positive for DF27 with Steppe ancestry in a Late Bronze Age burial from Cueva de los Lagos is located in Aguilar del río Alhama, La Rioja.

Since Basques have both a high percentage of DF27 and a significant amount of Steppe ancestry and since P312 and DF27 have been in Iberia since the Bronze Age in relatively close proximity, compared to the whole of Iberia and the rest of Europe, to the Basque Country it is only logical that Basques descend from the people with DF27 and Steppe ancestry that entered Iberia in the Bronze Age.

There will be more data for these discussions once the specimens from Spain are released by Olalde from his study of The genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the last 8000 years (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/09/isba-2018-abstracts.html) and the French specimens (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=519892&viewfull=1#post519892) are released by Brunel.

Basques have a significant amount of steppe ancestry? What is for you significant?

For us Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC), Early Chalcolithic (3.200-2.800 BC), Chalcolithic (2.800-2.400 BC) and Early Chalcolithic (2.400-2.000 BC)

I understand that you think that Df27 is Central European with origin in the steppes that had great amount of steppe ancestry and that entered the Iberian peninsula in the Bronze Age?

Therefore those Indo-European Df27 abandoned their language and began to speak Basque, or maybe Euzkera did not exist and was invented by those Iberian Df27

Webb
12-03-2018, 02:12 PM
No, it isn't consistent. There is a problem with the Iain McDonald calculation which shows Age analysis lasted updated 2017-10-03. It looks like it was a preliminary calculation without enough data.

Your father is positive for L617 and no-call, or negative, for F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 which is why he is not under M225.

YFull doesn't have a lot of kits that FTDNA has so YFull didn't use FGC31062 or FGC31068. YFull is currently on v6.08.00 (02 December 2018). For the next update you should be in a subclade of L617 and HG01606 should be downstream of you since he is positive for subclades that you are not. It remains to be seen if YFull ends up using FGC31062 but they most likely will.

The tree at http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=842 doesn't use F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 and the FTDNA tree at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC31062 doesn't use 1000 Genomes kits such as HG01606.

If you go to https://www.familytreedna.com/my/big-y and in the Named Variants tab select Show All under Derived? then search for F2106 * M7948 * M225 * S14003 * F1225 * Z5297 you probably have no result for most and No, meaning negative, for F1225.

I didn't notice the date of last update which is, as you stated, 10/03/2017. But I did check and every block at Ytree.net that has had an age calculation done, shows the same date of last update. I am a little disappointed because I really like the visuals of Ytree better. It got to be a pain to use Ytree for the tree layout then check Yfull for clade dates.

rms2
12-04-2018, 11:24 PM
Or, perhaps, the Proto-Basques, and their language, originated in the Steppe?

Maybe Proto-Basques invaded Europe at roughly the same time as PIEs?

If some people (like that Carlos Quiles) claim that Corded Ware spoke Proto-Uralic, then claiming that Yamnaya spoke Proto-Vasconic does not seem that crazy or far-fetched in comparison.

Doubt it.

Here are three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country, found with Bell Beaker pottery, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna (Lipson et al, 2017):

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

Notice that I2473 is a very early Iberian BB.

From what I have read, the ancient Basques worshiped a mother earth goddess called Mari and had a matrilocal marriage tradition (i.e., the groom goes to live with the bride's family). Matriarchal cultures like that with matrilocal marriage practices are tailor-made for the introduction of outsider y-dna while simultaneously retaining the bride's language and culture. And that's what I think happened. The Basque y-dna profile was probably originally a typical Neolithic Iberian profile, but over time it was replaced by R1b-P312, especially DF27.

TigerMW
12-10-2018, 06:17 PM
I didn't notice the date of last update which is, as you stated, 10/03/2017. But I did check and every block at Ytree.net that has had an age calculation done, shows the same date of last update. I am a little disappointed because I really like the visuals of Ytree better. It got to be a pain to use Ytree for the tree layout then check Yfull for clade dates.
I had some concerns about the whole project which includes several volunteers supporting the data warehouse, the tree, the age estimates, and more. I checked with Alex about my concern and he reassured all is proceeding with the major enhancements. They face the old U/T systems dilemma of new development versus maintenance.

Webb
12-10-2018, 06:50 PM
I had some concerns about the whole project which includes several volunteers supporting the data warehouse, the tree, the age estimates, and more. I checked with Alex about my concern and he reassured all is proceeding with the major enhancements. They face the old U/T systems dilemma of new development versus maintenance.

Since you mentioned it, what is the process now to get VCF/Bam files to Alex?

TigerMW
12-10-2018, 07:21 PM
Since you mentioned it, what is the process now to get VCF/Bam files to Alex?
That is the Y DNA Data Warehouse. There are links from the Big Tree instructions web page.