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ffoucart
03-11-2018, 07:34 PM
I've observed many times around me that some North Western Europeans have what's look like epicanthic gold (as my father and his grandmother, from a picture).
In Flanders is quite common (as in other parts of Low Countries) and as in some parts of Germany. I've found that it is also quite common in Scandinavia.

Do other people have seen the same?

Camulogène Rix
03-11-2018, 08:50 PM
A legacy of the late Sarmatians in Western Europe (4th century AD)?

Mingle
03-11-2018, 11:33 PM
I've seen a lot of Americans of Northwest European ancestry and don't recall noticing them ever having epicanthic folds. The eyes of Europeans tend to be fairly small (when compared to North Africans, West Asians, and South Asians) so maybe this can sometimes make their eyes superficially resemble the eyes of Far Easterners.

Are you sure you're not confusing the epicanthic fold with hooded eyes? I don't think hooded eyes among Northwest Europeans is common, but a minority can have it. However, I can't imagine a Northwest European with epicanthic folds (except for possibly some rare exceptions).

MikeWhalen
03-11-2018, 11:36 PM
I too have seen that in 'European' types before
... I always thought some scandinavians have it, from some Sammy or other ancient high north indigenous influence? (like inuit or high north cree types in Canada who definitely have some of it)

all just guess work on my part-I think I've seen 'Russian' type folks with that look-again, its mostly pro hockey players I am familiar with so while from that part of the world, I dont know for sure where they are from)

Mike

ffoucart
03-12-2018, 02:54 AM
Are you sure you're not confusing the epicanthic fold with hooded eyes? I don't think hooded eyes among Northwest Europeans is common, but a minority can have it. However, I can't imagine a Northwest European with epicanthic folds (except for possibly some rare exceptions).

As examples, look at Renée Zellweger (before her surgery), Julia Stiles or Björk.

This is quite common.

pegasus
03-12-2018, 03:41 AM
The vast majority of Europeans do not have epicanthic eye folds, you are confusing it with borealization. They do have similarities but epicanthic eye folds cover the middle part of the eye, and part or all of the caruncle, thats quite rare to see in any European but is typical of East Asians. Having borealization on the upper eye lid is not the same as epicanthic eye folds.

ffoucart
03-12-2018, 07:00 AM
Epicanthic fold means: the upper skin fold covering the inner corner of the eye. I don't see how I could make a confusion with borealization.

By the way, I never said that Epicanthic Fold was frequent, but I said it is common. So neither frequent, nor rare. And in any case, rare in Southern Europe.
It can be found at low level in Northern and Eastern Europeans. Perhaps between 1 and 3% on the overall population in Flanders. So, not a rarity, but clearly not frequent.

Helgenes50
03-12-2018, 07:05 AM
Epicanthic fold means: the upper skin fold covering the inner corner of the eye. I don't see how I could make a confusion with borealization.

By the way, I never said that Epicanthic Fold was frequent, but I said it is common. So neither frequent, nor rare. And in any case, rare in Southern Europe.
It can be found at low level in Northern and Eastern Europeans. Perhaps between 1 and 3% on the overall population in Flanders. So, not a rarity, but clearly not frequent.

I have observed it among the Bretons and this is the case for one of my cousins, himself half of this origin (Lorient)
What is funny, the new generation is half Chinese

Mingle
03-12-2018, 05:31 PM
As examples, look at Renée Zellweger (before her surgery), Julia Stiles or Björk.

This is quite common.

I've heard of Renée and Björk, but not the other one. Besides these three famous examples, I don't think it will be be easy to find more.

It could occur in a significant minority of Scandinavians (although I doubt even that since their sports teams don't seem to have anyone with epicanthic folds), but that shouldn't be applied to Northwest Europeans as a whole then. Northwest Europe also includes West Germanic and Celtic countries. Americans descended from people of those countries never have it. If they do, it'll be one in a million. Or it's possible I mever paid attention to it. Can't comment much on Scandinavia though.

But are you sure you aren't confusing epicanthic folds with hooded eyes or upturned eyes?

ADW_1981
03-12-2018, 05:39 PM
I think he probably means hooded eyes, because a heavy brow, where the eyelid is completely covered, is especially common among NW European men and to a lesser extent women. Although, actor Isaac Hempstead Wright (Brandon Stark) looks like he might have something a little exotic going on there.

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 01:27 AM
This is external eyefold (on outer corner of the eye), complete opposite of internal, epicanthic fold. Also called Nordic fold because common in Scandinavians.

Censored
03-13-2018, 03:01 AM
I noticed some Lithuanians have legit epicanthic folds. Why? Russians too but their case is understandable given their close connection to many Asiatic groups.

Hell, even my own mother had one as do I(though its hardly noticeable).

ffoucart
03-13-2018, 12:07 PM
I really mean epicanthic fold (interior corner).

By the way, to those who read the Bavarian paper in the Ancient DNA part of the forum, note the presence of East Asian ancestry in some samples.

Deformed skull are known in a large part of North Western Europe at the time (at least from Crimea to Normandy).

Sangarius
03-13-2018, 03:10 PM
I really mean epicanthic fold (interior corner).

By the way, to those who read the Bavarian paper in the Ancient DNA part of the forum, note the presence of East Asian ancestry in some samples.

Deformed skull are known in a large part of North Western Europe at the time (at least from Crimea to Normandy).

The new paper on Bavarian Huns is interesting in this context. Günther Beckstein (https://www.google.de/search?biw=1920&bih=949&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=V-anWpioC8GeUNixhlA&q=g%C3%BCnther+beckstein&oq=g%C3%BCnther+beckstein&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l8.6215.9092.0.9255.17.10.0.7.7.0.91.808.10 .10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.17.826...0i10k1.0.InVXaR6zAyQ#imgrc=_), bavarian politician, comes to mind.

http://www.kolping-dev.de/Terminal/Terminal_Restaurant/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Beckstein.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2018, 08:10 PM
I think I asked a similar question some time ago because I have it to a degree.
At the time I was speculating on possible Hun ancestry which I now know to be improbable. However I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is related to Steppe influence somewhere way back. I tend to consistently get minor "Asian" percentages even around 1% Arctic Amerindian/Native American ( I'm British)
I have good reasons to believe early paternal origins were probably in Scandinavia. Some tests give me substantial Scandinavian and Finnish.

"In addition to Asians and eastern subarctic and arctic Eurasians, some native American peoples (especially those of Middle America and some populations in South American lowland areas), the Capoid local race of southern Africa, and some of the composite racial groups of Pacific island peoples have high incidence of developed epicanthic folds. The fold occurs less frequently in Southeast Asian populations and in North American Indian groups but occurs occasionally in some European groups, for example in some Scandinavians and Poles.

While epicanthic folds occur more frequently in Asiatic groups and those peoples genetically linked to Asia, its presence is not universal in these peoples and it occurs less frequently in other groups. The incidence of epicanthic folds varies widely among the nine major geographic races and their local races. "

https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/epicanthic-fold

Pylsteen
03-13-2018, 09:29 PM
I think I have seen it more than once among Limburgers for some reason; I don't think they had recent Asian admixture (Huns? Alans?). Also indeed among some Flemish, Germans and Scandinavians I know.

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 10:34 PM
I think I have seen it more than once among Limburgers for some reason; I don't think they had recent Asian admixture (Huns? Alans?). Also indeed among some Flemish, Germans and Scandinavians I know.

Ok guys post photo of Western European with such supposed fold. I'm sure it will be external or median eyefold.

True epicanthus hides this red corner of the eye.

On the left epicanthus. On the right after plastic surgery.
http://english.teuimps.co.kr/eng/img/sub/kwon/kwonmethod.jpg

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 10:43 PM
Epicanthus

https://s9.postimg.org/i7mfn86rj/Bez-nazwy-25.png

Dewsloth
03-13-2018, 11:59 PM
I've observed many times around me that some North Western Europeans have what's look like epicanthic gold (as my father and his grandmother, from a picture).
In Flanders is quite common (as in other parts of Low Countries) and as in some parts of Germany. I've found that it is also quite common in Scandinavia.

Do other people have seen the same?

Dad has almond eyes upturned at the outsides, not really any folds, though.

TuaMan
03-14-2018, 11:01 PM
IMO it's a legacy of the ANE/Siberian side of the Indo-Europeans.

Bas
03-14-2018, 11:41 PM
I think there's still confusion about an actual Epicanthic Fold-which is almost exclusively East Asian and an outer eyelid fold which isn't. LukaszM nailed IMO; apart from the odd case of recent E.Asian ancestry, there is no 'Epicanthic Fold' in NW Europeans.

It's confused with an outer eyelid fold (Günther Beckstein) which is another story and is fairly common.

ffoucart
03-15-2018, 02:12 AM
again, I'm talking about Inner, not Outer.

Both can be found, but Outer is clearly more common.

22108

22111

22112

Around the North Sea, for Britain and Low Countries, it's probably linked to Scandinavian ancestry (often found at relativily high levels in Scotland, Ireland, some parts of Britain and Low Countries), given that Sami and their descendant can have inherited this trait:

22109
22110

ffoucart
03-15-2018, 02:19 AM
Among celebrities, Taylor Swift is also a good example:

22113

Pylsteen
03-15-2018, 12:31 PM
OK, I think Lukasz is right, I have to look carefully. In that case, I have only seen the internal epenthetic fold in a Norwegian. Still, other types of folds like that Bavarian, do give some NW Europeans an "East Asian" look.

Difficult to note famous examples. I thought about maybe actor Martin Shaw. Or is that too a different setting of the eye?

lukaszM
03-15-2018, 10:55 PM
Among celebrities, Taylor Swift is also a good example:

22113

nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-16-2018, 12:09 AM
Yes, eyefolds are very common in Northern Euros, but they're almost always external, as Lukasz has said.

The exquisite Catherine Zeta Jones (Welsh-Irish, so a northern Euro) seemed to have a lot of fat around her eyes when she was very young, but none of it covered her inner eye and it looks like she lost it when she got older...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/53/ce/08/53ce0816c58b37688c77495659bfb6ca--catherine-zeta-jones-catherine-ohara.jpg
http://static.cleverst.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/07074303/Humble-Beginnings.jpg

Anyway, true epicanthus in NW Euros is very rare.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-16-2018, 08:19 AM
nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 09:36 AM
i want to join your fat eye lid gang :d

https://i.imgur.com/2O35g6h.png

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 11:18 AM
i want to join your fat eye lid gang :d

https://i.imgur.com/2O35g6h.png

Good example of Eastern-Euro style (I know she is English but such eyes are rather uncommon there) median eyefolds, hanging over lids. But still inner eye corner is not hidden by anything.

ffoucart
03-16-2018, 11:58 AM
nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It's clear that Björk has eyes c) or f) (as for the Sami).

By the way, I had lunch yesterday with one of my colleague, and she has clearly an inner fold covering the inner pink of her eyes (and she's French Flemish).

Again, I'm speaking of inner fold, not external, and the European eyes (with external fold) you posted are not what I have in mind. They are indeed extremely frequent.

But it's saying something interesting: inner fold could be more specific to some areas bordering the North Sea than an overall trait among all NW Europeans. As the NW Europeans I saw were mostly from Low Countries (obviously).

anglesqueville
03-16-2018, 01:30 PM
How the specialists on here would classify the eye lids of this woman?

22125

(sorry, bad old photo)

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It's clear that Björk has eyes c) or f) (as for the Sami).
).

Bjork is extremaly atypical for Iceland and could have Inuit blood. But again she has visible inner eye corner:) Sorry but unless you post original Western euro inhabitant with fully epicanthic fold you are wrong. I think only in Finland or north Scandinavia from obvious reasons we can find such eyes, but still very rare.
You still mix eye shape with epicanthic fold. Upturned, almond eyes with strong median eyefold which covers whole upper lid, don't equal epicanthus / mongolian fold.

https://s18.postimg.org/4r48gtawp/Bez-nazwy-2.png

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:45 PM
How the specialists on here would classify the eye lids of this woman?

22125

(sorry, bad old photo)

She has no median fold hanging from the top (like kitbluee example previously or Bjork above), also no external, whole lid is visible and thin. Her eyes are deep-seat although. But eye shape is rather rare, B1 on example below I think.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/Ksztalt-szpary-ocznej.jpg

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:46 PM
When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121

Can you post just eyes with zoom on them ?

K33
03-16-2018, 02:10 PM
Hmmm...

Does this image clarify things? "Hooded" is indeed more common around North Sea but this image shows the difference between that and "Monolid" (epicanthic fold). Tom Brady is another prominent example of "hooded" eyelids.

@JohnHowellsTyrfro, would be nice to get more zoom but it does appear that you may have genuine epicanthic folds...

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-12/10/14/enhanced/webdr08/original-20333-1449775696-11.jpg

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 02:39 PM
heres another example for you from me:
https://i.imgur.com/bx30ZPI.png

Dewsloth
03-16-2018, 03:09 PM
When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121


Nice! :) Here's my Dad as a kid and a few years later.

22130

anglesqueville
03-16-2018, 04:09 PM
She has no median fold hanging from the top (like kitbluee example previously or Bjork above), also no external, whole lid is visible and thin. Her eyes are deep-seat although. But eye shape is rather rare, B1 on example below I think.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/Ksztalt-szpary-ocznej.jpg

3 generations later

22132

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-16-2018, 04:34 PM
Can you post just eyes with zoom on them ?

Everything has sagged a bit over the years. :) More "hooded" maybe?

22133

Kristiina
03-16-2018, 06:41 PM
In my opinion, the Finnish singer Johanna Kurkela represents the Siberian traits and Siberian eyes in Finns quite nicely. Of course, her natural hair colour is dark and not red.

22134

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 07:02 PM
In my opinion, the Finnish singer Johanna Kurkela represents the Siberian traits and Siberian eyes in Finns quite nicely. Of course, her natural hair colour is dark and not red.

22134

i get russian/siberian too. crappy 23andme even gave me yakut :l

ffoucart
03-17-2018, 03:30 AM
Bjork is extremaly atypical for Iceland and could have Inuit blood. But again she has visible inner eye corner:) Sorry but unless you post original Western euro inhabitant with fully epicanthic fold you are wrong. I think only in Finland or north Scandinavia from obvious reasons we can find such eyes, but still very rare.
You still mix eye shape with epicanthic fold. Upturned, almond eyes with strong median eyefold which covers whole upper lid, don't equal epicanthus / mongolian fold.

At least you are agree it could exist among North Europeans.

Again, I am not making any confusion between strong median eyefold and inner fold (and frankly, I'm bored to repeat this, again and again, so stop).
By the way, you don't need Inuit to explain Björk eyes (even if some Native American Mt haplogroup may have been found in Iceland). Sami and Finnish ancestry can be found easily in South Norway and Sweden, and obviously this is not always recent ancestry (Sami were pushed to the North by demographic pressure of Germanic speaking Scandinavians).

There are also well known historical events of migration from Scandinavia along the North Sea, from the Vikings to modern days. The most recent event, with tens of thousand migrants, is dated from the XVIth to the XVIIIth centuries, from South Norway to Low Countries. It has been studied by historians, and impacted mostly Amsterdam and Middelburg, but not exclusively. Genealogical research have shown that they were also present at Dunkerque (with thousands living descendants today). And I know that some of them settled in Scotland too.

This, without taking into account commercial relations by the Hanse or not, linking Flanders and England to Bergen or Novgorod.

So, again, I never said it was a frequent trait, but I will not say it is very rare as you do.

Very rare among Western European, yes, but not among North Western Europeans (mostly, people living around the North Sea, from South Scandinavia to North France). I feel it can be see rather commonly (usually touching around 1% of people around us, but sometimes more in some villages).

And I will no more post pictures. Firstly because, I don't like doing it, and I feel it is always putting a thread array. Secondly, because of privacy. As a matter of fact, I didn't ask to take a picture of my colleague's eyes, but another one asked and she refused. I don't like the idea to publish pictures of complete strangers either. And it could be illegal anyway (in fact, it is illegal). And I don't have anymore my great grand mother picture (since my pc crashed some years ago).

Anyway, those traits have been studied, and this is not the aim of this thread. I have already the statiscal answer, which is simply confirming my feeling. I only wanted to let people express their own experience on the subject, and perhaps find some subpopulation with more examples than others.

Kristiina
03-17-2018, 07:43 AM
Ffoucart, you should keep in mind that the Siberian traits probably preceded the modern languages spoken in the Northern North Europe. For example Sami people are very diverse in their looks.

anglesqueville
03-17-2018, 08:24 AM
As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). We are then in the same situation as with the cephalic index, for example. We have a strong intuition that those characters can reflect something real in terms of genetics population, but we cannot easily go further than this intuition. For example, many people on my paternal side have "something special" in their eyes shape, something very unusual in France, and we have good reasons to think that this "special thing" is inherited from my father's mother. But we are pretty unable to tell more, just because of the lack of a solid connection with some genetic polymorphisms. This frustrating situation is in fact more or less the reality of all the phenotypical characters. You know that even the heritability of the cephalic index has been fiercely debated, and the genetic process that leads to the fixation of the lactose tolerance in north-western Europe is debated as well. Those topics are in fact very difficult.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:32 AM
Everything has sagged a bit over the years. :) More "hooded" maybe?

22133

Yes, and in close view there are less "epicanthic".

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:34 AM
i get russian/siberian too. crappy 23andme even gave me yakut :l

We discussed it some time ago by PM regarding your K47, and for me you really looks Eastern-shifted for Britain.

ffoucart
03-17-2018, 09:34 AM
Ffoucart, you should keep in mind that the Siberian traits probably preceded the modern languages spoken in the Northern North Europe. For example Sami people are very diverse in their looks.

Exactly. It's also interesting to note that many calculators are showing a low East Asian/Siberian admixture signal in Northern European. Among with aDNA showing some EA peculiarities already present in Northern Europe thousands of years ago.

By the way, the last study about Migration Age in Bavaria is also showing some samples with East Asian ancestry, and we know from Archeology that Artificial Deformed Skull can be found in different places from Crimea to Normandy (and in France, in Alsace, Burgondy,...).

I am not saying that there is some connection to specific traits, but only that there are historical events which could back some low level East Asian and/or Siberian ancestry in North Western Europeans.


As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). [...]. Those topics are in fact very difficult.


I never said anything about heritability, only about statistics. Some epithantic folds could be connected to diseases.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:35 AM
3 generations later

22132

Right child the same eye shape like grandma, nice.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:37 AM
As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). We are then in the same situation as with the cephalic index, for example. We have a strong intuition that those characters can reflect something real in terms of genetics population, but we cannot easily go further than this intuition. For example, many people on my paternal side have "something special" in their eyes shape, something very unusual in France, and we have good reasons to think that this "special thing" is inherited from my father's mother. But we are pretty unable to tell more, just because of the lack of a solid connection with some genetic polymorphisms. This frustrating situation is in fact more or less the reality of all the phenotypical characters. You know that even the heritability of the cephalic index has been fiercely debated, and the genetic process that leads to the fixation of the lactose tolerance in north-western Europe is debated as well. Those topics are in fact very difficult.

Recently Boas studies on CI complete lack of heritable were revealed as hoax made up from political reasons. His examples were studied again and were so many inconsistencies. Later I can look for this paper.
But again we have new studies which show some genetic component in head shape. For example http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.23186/full or facial traits http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002932 or facial and nasal traits https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11616

Squad
03-17-2018, 09:54 AM
The mutation from T to C on the EDAR gene (called EDAR+) arose some 35 000 years ago in East Asia and resulted in many mongoloid features which were then selected in eastern asian populations. Although the mutation does not cause epicanthic eyefolds as far as I know, the fact that populations with a high frequency of EDAR+ also have a high incidence of such eyefolds makes it quite certain that any population carrying EDAR+ would spread epicanthic folds as well. The mutation was found in 4 out of 7 Motala hunther-gatherers from Sweden and it is certainly linked with the arrival of Y-DNA Q1a in Scandinavia, today represented by two sub-clades Q-L527 and Q-L804, the closest clade to the american Q-M3.

Jessie
03-17-2018, 10:21 AM
Yes, eyefolds are very common in Northern Euros, but they're almost always external, as Lukasz has said.

The exquisite Catherine Zeta Jones (Welsh-Irish, so a northern Euro) seemed to have a lot of fat around her eyes when she was very young, but none of it covered her inner eye and it looks like she lost it when she got older...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/53/ce/08/53ce0816c58b37688c77495659bfb6ca--catherine-zeta-jones-catherine-ohara.jpg
http://static.cleverst.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/07074303/Humble-Beginnings.jpg

Anyway, true epicanthus in NW Euros is very rare.

Yes those sort of eyes are quite common in Irish people. Irish author Frank McCourt is a good example.

http://i65.tinypic.com/k9q1d.jpg

Stephen1986
03-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Here's my eyes which seem to be hooded although I'm not sure if they're just affected by my being overweight. I've always thought that the eyes of a lot of people in my area, including myself, are quite small but that appears to be common in much of Northern and Western Europe. I have zero epicanthic fold, I've never seen it in any of my relatives which is to be expected.

22160

anglesqueville
03-17-2018, 11:06 AM
Right child the same eye shape like grandma, nice.

She is now around 30 and looks really north-russian or east-finnish, very close to her great-grand mother. Unfortunately I'm not allowed by her to post recent pictures (people in my family considere that all genetic and genealogic informations are very sensitive, I already gave rise to familial scandals because of my participation to forums, and I'm rather tired of it :\ ) . I posted some months ago on another thread a photo montage with 3 generations on this line. The man in the middle (one of my uncles) was really impressive, but unfortunately the photographic quality is pathetic:

22161

corner
03-17-2018, 12:06 PM
3 generations later

22132Myself, relations and some friends looked very similar at that age. This is our paternal great, great grandfather. The family were living in rural/coastal northeast Yorkshire for as far back as I can trace.

https://image.ibb.co/eA11pc/ECb_wsm.jpg

kitbluee
03-18-2018, 10:56 PM
We discussed it some time ago by PM regarding your K47, and for me you really looks Eastern-shifted for Britain.

putting my 23andme data in gedmatch gives me 2 russian grandparents sometimes lol

ffoucart
03-29-2018, 02:41 PM
Well, I didn't look at this part of myself before, but my right eye is exactly like this (not my picture obviously):

22385

The epicanthus on my left eye is far less apparent.

skyyrie
04-04-2018, 01:04 AM
epicanthus is the associated with strong neotenized people,when their Supraorbital ridges faltten,the excessive skin fall upon the eyes,and forming epicanthic looking

Mystery
07-03-2018, 12:51 AM
I know someone with eyes (if blue) close to the Mongolid example (post 35). Apologies, am not posting picture for privacy reasons. But she constantly get Finnish DNA (5+%, test depending) & has a mtdna haplogroup very common among Saami.

AlexRus
07-13-2018, 03:45 PM
I noticed some Lithuanians have legit epicanthic folds. Why? Russians too but their case is understandable given their close connection to many Asiatic groups.

Hell, even my own mother had one as do I(though its hardly noticeable).

You have a lot of myths about Russia. In addition to the Epicanthus in Russia along the roads go bears, and everyone drinks vodka, even small children - instead of milk ..

Epicanthus is discussed in many Russian anthropological forums. This problem epicanthus in Russians is rare in children, and then disappears. In adults, epicanthus occurs in 1% of the population. This is less common than in Western Europe. Very rarely epicanthus occurs in the north of Russia, almost never. This is surprising, since it is assumed that in the northeast of Russia there was a mixture with Finno-Ugric people.

Probably, you traveled to large cities, where not only the Russian population lives, but also other peoples. In Russia, in megacities, many migrants from Central Asia. You met an Uzbek or a Yakut and thought it was Russian. Sometimes it happens to foreigners. However, in Europe there are even more migrants. In Paris, according to my observations, up to 80% of representatives of Africa and Asia, Turkey. But we do not believe that the indigenous French are black.


PS

Epicanthus in Scandinavia and Northern Europe, perhaps from the Saami or the undifferentiated Paleo-Europeans? Some Scandinavians also have broad cheekbones, and many Belarusians and some north-western Russians (this is the same north, but not the West of Europe) have rare hairs on their beards. I met the opinion that this is a paleo-European heritage.

AlexRus
07-13-2018, 11:20 PM
In adults, epicanthus occurs in 1% of the population.

It's wrong! Here is a quote from anthropologist Professor Alekseeva T. I : "the Presence of epicanthus for the Russian population is extremely rare. Among those studied during the Russian anthropological expedition, only 0.2% have epicanthus, and even then only in a weak or rudimentary form. ".

Russian translation:

"Наличие эпикантуса для русского населения - чрезвычайно редкое явление. Среди изученных в ходе Русской антропологической экспедиции только 0,2% имеют эпикантус , да и то лишь в слабой или зачаточной форме."

These Russian Asian Mongols, Real Slavs are not)))
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Ethereal
07-14-2018, 03:15 AM
This can be due to genuine Mongoloid admixture in the case of say the Finns, but with NW Euros it almost always is due to the occasional resemblance to Cro-Magnon, which looked like Oliver Kahn :)

AlexRus
07-14-2018, 10:42 AM
This can be due to genuine Mongoloid admixture in the case of say the Finns, but with NW Euros it almost always is due to the occasional resemblance to Cro-Magnon, which looked like Oliver Kahn :)

Could it be due to a genuine Mongoloid impurity? Is that a Mongoloid admixture too?
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Could it be due to a genuine Mongoloid impurity? Is that a Mongoloid admixture too? Epicanthus Finns and NW-Euro from the Sami or the undifferentiated Paleosurface. B)

AlexRus
07-14-2018, 11:13 AM
She is now around 30 and looks really north-russian or east-finnish, very close to her great-grand mother. Unfortunately I'm not allowed by her to post recent pictures (people in my family considere that all genetic and genealogic informations are very sensitive, I already gave rise to familial scandals because of my participation to forums, and I'm rather tired of it :\ ) . I posted some months ago on another thread a photo montage with 3 generations on this line. The man in the middle (one of my uncles) was really impressive, but unfortunately the photographic quality is pathetic:

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You don't know The Russian North. Russian North-is primarily Slavs and a large admixture of the Baltic States. They are the most Nordic of the Slavs, similar to Estonians, Latvians and are very different from the Eastern Finns. This is due to the paleo-European impurities common to the Circum-Baltic region, which is in the Baltic States and the Estonians and the Suomi and Swedes.


This is Pomor. Subethnos of the Russian North. They are the northernmost and show the autosomes proximity to the Finno-Ugrians:

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These are Northern Russians from Arkhangelsk and Vologda.:

The head of administration of the Arkhangelsk area
Dement'evo Kotlassky district of the Arkhangelsk region in the family of employees, Russian.
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This simple man, the chauffeur
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Kurki
07-30-2018, 03:57 AM
I'd chalk only sparing most northern amounts up to Sami, possibly. Consider location and historical background...southern Siberia? Central? We have problems straight up Sami on the Swedish side, possibly on Norwegian side too. All I see are very hooded eyes. So much my mom has had surgery suggested so her lids don't interfere with her visit. The Swede Sami, especially around Jokkmokk and south, don't have very clearly Siberian eye features. Mostly almond eye features of Sweden. Finnish Sami tend to have somewhat more Siberian features in their eyes. But this is a generalization. And note, they did not head out and trade around Europe. It was weird enough to mix with local Swedes and Norwegians via local trade or getting Lutheranized or whatever went on. But I have heard no theory on how Sami features could travel around Europe. Siberian... Sure. And Bjork does not look Sami, btw...

ffoucart
07-30-2018, 02:06 PM
But I have heard no theory on how Sami features could travel around Europe. Siberian... Sure. And Bjork does not look Sami, btw...
Even if Sami didn't travelled around Europe, if Norwegians and Swedes have some Sami admixture since a long time, some Sami descendants did travel throughout Europe, at least since the Vikings Age.

dsb
08-08-2018, 04:10 PM
Hello. I am 100% Northern European with all ancestors from around the North Sea. These are my eyes. My tear ducts are swollen today due to environmental smoke, but do my eyes not have true epicanthic folds?
edit: I apparently can't post images as I'm a new member, but they are here at imgur com/a/csHfiT3

Bas
08-08-2018, 09:37 PM
Hello. I am 100% Northern European with all ancestors from around the North Sea. These are my eyes. My tear ducts are swollen today due to environmental smoke, but do my eyes not have true epicanthic folds?
edit: I apparently can't post images as I'm a new member, but they are here at imgur com/a/csHfiT3

I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

ffoucart
08-09-2018, 06:04 AM
I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

dsb
08-13-2018, 02:07 AM
I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

Thank you. I had heard it theorized as a snow reflection adaption. If your view is correct, then it would seem that many Asians don't have epicanthic folds as the tear duct area is visible in many eyes of that people, as ffoucart states:


Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

For example:
http:--josephwalrathmd.com/wp-content/gallery/eoy-2014/dynamic/AB-Pre.jpg-nggid03226-ngg0dyn-450x0x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpg
and
http:--1.bp.blogspot.com/-FnjMaKMiuzM/U2EZrLfOy9I/AAAAAAAAAQY/rba9D-Y4HNI/s1600/DSC03326+(2)+-+Copy.JPG

In any case, the pink area is usually visible but not as swollen. Here is a picture of my eye from when I was a kid. Does it seem to fit your criteria in this pic?
https:--i.imgur.com/w0F2WST.jpg

Nino90
08-16-2018, 07:11 AM
I have noticed that many children have it. When they grew older it disappear.

Finns and Sami people have it. But I have also seen it in Norwegians and Swedes.

lukaszM
09-05-2018, 08:08 AM
I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

Worth to remind this again. Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongoloendoppelfalte on picture). You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

lukaszM
09-05-2018, 08:09 AM
I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

Worth to remind this again.

Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongolonendoppelfalte on picture).

You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.

Martin R., Saller K., Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der anthropologischen Methoden. Bd. 3., 1962

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

ffoucart
09-05-2018, 10:08 AM
Worth to remind this again. Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongoloendoppelfalte on picture). You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.


What is the point of your post?

Anyway, those are examples of several populations, and don't show internal variability in a said population.

dodona
02-23-2020, 02:59 PM
heavy eye lids are no epicantic fold.

MethCat
06-11-2020, 10:50 PM
Living in Norway all my life I've honestly only seen it once in a friend of mine and he outright told me he has Sami roots so...

Its an anecdote so I know it doesn't count for much but I'd say its exceedingly rare among ethnic Norwegians South of Troms. Facial features stand out to me yet I can't remember the last time I saw a Norwegian with epicanthic folds apart from in my friend like 11 years ago.

JoeyP37
06-14-2020, 12:04 AM
It is said that all Caucasoid fetuses have the epicanthal fold, but it disappears in the last few weeks of gestation. I was born four weeks premature, so I did not lose mine. I also have heavy brows, borealization it is called I think; my sister says I look like the Chinese basketball great Yao Ming, although not in height, as at five foot nine I am closer in height to the average Chinese than a giant seven foot tall center. We are 7/8 Northwest European, and my sister-of course the same one, as I have only one-suffered from Dupuytren's contracture, the famed Viking disease, having surgery to repair it in her late 20s.