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ffoucart
03-11-2018, 07:34 PM
I've observed many times around me that some North Western Europeans have what's look like epicanthic gold (as my father and his grandmother, from a picture).
In Flanders is quite common (as in other parts of Low Countries) and as in some parts of Germany. I've found that it is also quite common in Scandinavia.

Do other people have seen the same?

Camulogène Rix
03-11-2018, 08:50 PM
A legacy of the late Sarmatians in Western Europe (4th century AD)?

Mingle
03-11-2018, 11:33 PM
I've seen a lot of Americans of Northwest European ancestry and don't recall noticing them ever having epicanthic folds. The eyes of Europeans tend to be fairly small (when compared to North Africans, West Asians, and South Asians) so maybe this can sometimes make their eyes superficially resemble the eyes of Far Easterners.

Are you sure you're not confusing the epicanthic fold with hooded eyes? I don't think hooded eyes among Northwest Europeans is common, but a minority can have it. However, I can't imagine a Northwest European with epicanthic folds (except for possibly some rare exceptions).

MikeWhalen
03-11-2018, 11:36 PM
I too have seen that in 'European' types before
... I always thought some scandinavians have it, from some Sammy or other ancient high north indigenous influence? (like inuit or high north cree types in Canada who definitely have some of it)

all just guess work on my part-I think I've seen 'Russian' type folks with that look-again, its mostly pro hockey players I am familiar with so while from that part of the world, I dont know for sure where they are from)

Mike

ffoucart
03-12-2018, 02:54 AM
Are you sure you're not confusing the epicanthic fold with hooded eyes? I don't think hooded eyes among Northwest Europeans is common, but a minority can have it. However, I can't imagine a Northwest European with epicanthic folds (except for possibly some rare exceptions).

As examples, look at Renée Zellweger (before her surgery), Julia Stiles or Björk.

This is quite common.

pegasus
03-12-2018, 03:41 AM
The vast majority of Europeans do not have epicanthic eye folds, you are confusing it with borealization. They do have similarities but epicanthic eye folds cover the middle part of the eye, and part or all of the caruncle, thats quite rare to see in any European but is typical of East Asians. Having borealization on the upper eye lid is not the same as epicanthic eye folds.

ffoucart
03-12-2018, 07:00 AM
Epicanthic fold means: the upper skin fold covering the inner corner of the eye. I don't see how I could make a confusion with borealization.

By the way, I never said that Epicanthic Fold was frequent, but I said it is common. So neither frequent, nor rare. And in any case, rare in Southern Europe.
It can be found at low level in Northern and Eastern Europeans. Perhaps between 1 and 3% on the overall population in Flanders. So, not a rarity, but clearly not frequent.

Helgenes50
03-12-2018, 07:05 AM
Epicanthic fold means: the upper skin fold covering the inner corner of the eye. I don't see how I could make a confusion with borealization.

By the way, I never said that Epicanthic Fold was frequent, but I said it is common. So neither frequent, nor rare. And in any case, rare in Southern Europe.
It can be found at low level in Northern and Eastern Europeans. Perhaps between 1 and 3% on the overall population in Flanders. So, not a rarity, but clearly not frequent.

I have observed it among the Bretons and this is the case for one of my cousins, himself half of this origin (Lorient)
What is funny, the new generation is half Chinese

Mingle
03-12-2018, 05:31 PM
As examples, look at Renée Zellweger (before her surgery), Julia Stiles or Björk.

This is quite common.

I've heard of Renée and Björk, but not the other one. Besides these three famous examples, I don't think it will be be easy to find more.

It could occur in a significant minority of Scandinavians (although I doubt even that since their sports teams don't seem to have anyone with epicanthic folds), but that shouldn't be applied to Northwest Europeans as a whole then. Northwest Europe also includes West Germanic and Celtic countries. Americans descended from people of those countries never have it. If they do, it'll be one in a million. Or it's possible I mever paid attention to it. Can't comment much on Scandinavia though.

But are you sure you aren't confusing epicanthic folds with hooded eyes or upturned eyes?

ADW_1981
03-12-2018, 05:39 PM
I think he probably means hooded eyes, because a heavy brow, where the eyelid is completely covered, is especially common among NW European men and to a lesser extent women. Although, actor Isaac Hempstead Wright (Brandon Stark) looks like he might have something a little exotic going on there.

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 01:27 AM
This is external eyefold (on outer corner of the eye), complete opposite of internal, epicanthic fold. Also called Nordic fold because common in Scandinavians.

Censored
03-13-2018, 03:01 AM
I noticed some Lithuanians have legit epicanthic folds. Why? Russians too but their case is understandable given their close connection to many Asiatic groups.

Hell, even my own mother had one as do I(though its hardly noticeable).

ffoucart
03-13-2018, 12:07 PM
I really mean epicanthic fold (interior corner).

By the way, to those who read the Bavarian paper in the Ancient DNA part of the forum, note the presence of East Asian ancestry in some samples.

Deformed skull are known in a large part of North Western Europe at the time (at least from Crimea to Normandy).

Sangarius
03-13-2018, 03:10 PM
I really mean epicanthic fold (interior corner).

By the way, to those who read the Bavarian paper in the Ancient DNA part of the forum, note the presence of East Asian ancestry in some samples.

Deformed skull are known in a large part of North Western Europe at the time (at least from Crimea to Normandy).

The new paper on Bavarian Huns is interesting in this context. Günther Beckstein (https://www.google.de/search?biw=1920&bih=949&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=V-anWpioC8GeUNixhlA&q=g%C3%BCnther+beckstein&oq=g%C3%BCnther+beckstein&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l8.6215.9092.0.9255.17.10.0.7.7.0.91.808.10 .10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.17.826...0i10k1.0.InVXaR6zAyQ#imgrc=_), bavarian politician, comes to mind.

http://www.kolping-dev.de/Terminal/Terminal_Restaurant/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Beckstein.jpg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-13-2018, 08:10 PM
I think I asked a similar question some time ago because I have it to a degree.
At the time I was speculating on possible Hun ancestry which I now know to be improbable. However I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is related to Steppe influence somewhere way back. I tend to consistently get minor "Asian" percentages even around 1% Arctic Amerindian/Native American ( I'm British)
I have good reasons to believe early paternal origins were probably in Scandinavia. Some tests give me substantial Scandinavian and Finnish.

"In addition to Asians and eastern subarctic and arctic Eurasians, some native American peoples (especially those of Middle America and some populations in South American lowland areas), the Capoid local race of southern Africa, and some of the composite racial groups of Pacific island peoples have high incidence of developed epicanthic folds. The fold occurs less frequently in Southeast Asian populations and in North American Indian groups but occurs occasionally in some European groups, for example in some Scandinavians and Poles.

While epicanthic folds occur more frequently in Asiatic groups and those peoples genetically linked to Asia, its presence is not universal in these peoples and it occurs less frequently in other groups. The incidence of epicanthic folds varies widely among the nine major geographic races and their local races. "

https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/epicanthic-fold

Pylsteen
03-13-2018, 09:29 PM
I think I have seen it more than once among Limburgers for some reason; I don't think they had recent Asian admixture (Huns? Alans?). Also indeed among some Flemish, Germans and Scandinavians I know.

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 10:34 PM
I think I have seen it more than once among Limburgers for some reason; I don't think they had recent Asian admixture (Huns? Alans?). Also indeed among some Flemish, Germans and Scandinavians I know.

Ok guys post photo of Western European with such supposed fold. I'm sure it will be external or median eyefold.

True epicanthus hides this red corner of the eye.

On the left epicanthus. On the right after plastic surgery.
http://english.teuimps.co.kr/eng/img/sub/kwon/kwonmethod.jpg

lukaszM
03-13-2018, 10:43 PM
Epicanthus

https://s9.postimg.org/i7mfn86rj/Bez-nazwy-25.png

Dewsloth
03-13-2018, 11:59 PM
I've observed many times around me that some North Western Europeans have what's look like epicanthic gold (as my father and his grandmother, from a picture).
In Flanders is quite common (as in other parts of Low Countries) and as in some parts of Germany. I've found that it is also quite common in Scandinavia.

Do other people have seen the same?

Dad has almond eyes upturned at the outsides, not really any folds, though.

TuaMan
03-14-2018, 11:01 PM
IMO it's a legacy of the ANE/Siberian side of the Indo-Europeans.

Bas
03-14-2018, 11:41 PM
I think there's still confusion about an actual Epicanthic Fold-which is almost exclusively East Asian and an outer eyelid fold which isn't. LukaszM nailed IMO; apart from the odd case of recent E.Asian ancestry, there is no 'Epicanthic Fold' in NW Europeans.

It's confused with an outer eyelid fold (Günther Beckstein) which is another story and is fairly common.

ffoucart
03-15-2018, 02:12 AM
again, I'm talking about Inner, not Outer.

Both can be found, but Outer is clearly more common.

22108

22111

22112

Around the North Sea, for Britain and Low Countries, it's probably linked to Scandinavian ancestry (often found at relativily high levels in Scotland, Ireland, some parts of Britain and Low Countries), given that Sami and their descendant can have inherited this trait:

22109
22110

ffoucart
03-15-2018, 02:19 AM
Among celebrities, Taylor Swift is also a good example:

22113

Pylsteen
03-15-2018, 12:31 PM
OK, I think Lukasz is right, I have to look carefully. In that case, I have only seen the internal epenthetic fold in a Norwegian. Still, other types of folds like that Bavarian, do give some NW Europeans an "East Asian" look.

Difficult to note famous examples. I thought about maybe actor Martin Shaw. Or is that too a different setting of the eye?

lukaszM
03-15-2018, 10:55 PM
Among celebrities, Taylor Swift is also a good example:

22113

nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

Michalis Moriopoulos
03-16-2018, 12:09 AM
Yes, eyefolds are very common in Northern Euros, but they're almost always external, as Lukasz has said.

The exquisite Catherine Zeta Jones (Welsh-Irish, so a northern Euro) seemed to have a lot of fat around her eyes when she was very young, but none of it covered her inner eye and it looks like she lost it when she got older...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/53/ce/08/53ce0816c58b37688c77495659bfb6ca--catherine-zeta-jones-catherine-ohara.jpg
http://static.cleverst.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/07074303/Humble-Beginnings.jpg

Anyway, true epicanthus in NW Euros is very rare.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-16-2018, 08:19 AM
nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 09:36 AM
i want to join your fat eye lid gang :d

https://i.imgur.com/2O35g6h.png

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 11:18 AM
i want to join your fat eye lid gang :d

https://i.imgur.com/2O35g6h.png

Good example of Eastern-Euro style (I know she is English but such eyes are rather uncommon there) median eyefolds, hanging over lids. But still inner eye corner is not hidden by anything.

ffoucart
03-16-2018, 11:58 AM
nope. You mess few different things which aren't epicanthic fold.

First eyes with upturned outer corner. Like in this photo.

Second median eyefols (which covers central and internal lid but not hides internal eye corner.) It is pretty commmon in Poland for example where treu epicanthus is below 1% according to anthro surveys.

None of your examples is showing epicanthus.

European eyes with folds (but not epicanthus)

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/faldy-powiekowe.jpg

Examples of different folds and epicanthus

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It's clear that Björk has eyes c) or f) (as for the Sami).

By the way, I had lunch yesterday with one of my colleague, and she has clearly an inner fold covering the inner pink of her eyes (and she's French Flemish).

Again, I'm speaking of inner fold, not external, and the European eyes (with external fold) you posted are not what I have in mind. They are indeed extremely frequent.

But it's saying something interesting: inner fold could be more specific to some areas bordering the North Sea than an overall trait among all NW Europeans. As the NW Europeans I saw were mostly from Low Countries (obviously).

anglesqueville
03-16-2018, 01:30 PM
How the specialists on here would classify the eye lids of this woman?

22125

(sorry, bad old photo)

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:42 PM
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. It's clear that Björk has eyes c) or f) (as for the Sami).
).

Bjork is extremaly atypical for Iceland and could have Inuit blood. But again she has visible inner eye corner:) Sorry but unless you post original Western euro inhabitant with fully epicanthic fold you are wrong. I think only in Finland or north Scandinavia from obvious reasons we can find such eyes, but still very rare.
You still mix eye shape with epicanthic fold. Upturned, almond eyes with strong median eyefold which covers whole upper lid, don't equal epicanthus / mongolian fold.

https://s18.postimg.org/4r48gtawp/Bez-nazwy-2.png

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:45 PM
How the specialists on here would classify the eye lids of this woman?

22125

(sorry, bad old photo)

She has no median fold hanging from the top (like kitbluee example previously or Bjork above), also no external, whole lid is visible and thin. Her eyes are deep-seat although. But eye shape is rather rare, B1 on example below I think.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/Ksztalt-szpary-ocznej.jpg

lukaszM
03-16-2018, 01:46 PM
When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121

Can you post just eyes with zoom on them ?

K33
03-16-2018, 02:10 PM
Hmmm...

Does this image clarify things? "Hooded" is indeed more common around North Sea but this image shows the difference between that and "Monolid" (epicanthic fold). Tom Brady is another prominent example of "hooded" eyelids.

@JohnHowellsTyrfro, would be nice to get more zoom but it does appear that you may have genuine epicanthic folds...

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-12/10/14/enhanced/webdr08/original-20333-1449775696-11.jpg

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 02:39 PM
heres another example for you from me:
https://i.imgur.com/bx30ZPI.png

Dewsloth
03-16-2018, 03:09 PM
When I was young.

22120

More recently.

22121


Nice! :) Here's my Dad as a kid and a few years later.

22130

anglesqueville
03-16-2018, 04:09 PM
She has no median fold hanging from the top (like kitbluee example previously or Bjork above), also no external, whole lid is visible and thin. Her eyes are deep-seat although. But eye shape is rather rare, B1 on example below I think.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/Ksztalt-szpary-ocznej.jpg

3 generations later

22132

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-16-2018, 04:34 PM
Can you post just eyes with zoom on them ?

Everything has sagged a bit over the years. :) More "hooded" maybe?

22133

Kristiina
03-16-2018, 06:41 PM
In my opinion, the Finnish singer Johanna Kurkela represents the Siberian traits and Siberian eyes in Finns quite nicely. Of course, her natural hair colour is dark and not red.

22134

kitbluee
03-16-2018, 07:02 PM
In my opinion, the Finnish singer Johanna Kurkela represents the Siberian traits and Siberian eyes in Finns quite nicely. Of course, her natural hair colour is dark and not red.

22134

i get russian/siberian too. crappy 23andme even gave me yakut :l

ffoucart
03-17-2018, 03:30 AM
Bjork is extremaly atypical for Iceland and could have Inuit blood. But again she has visible inner eye corner:) Sorry but unless you post original Western euro inhabitant with fully epicanthic fold you are wrong. I think only in Finland or north Scandinavia from obvious reasons we can find such eyes, but still very rare.
You still mix eye shape with epicanthic fold. Upturned, almond eyes with strong median eyefold which covers whole upper lid, don't equal epicanthus / mongolian fold.

At least you are agree it could exist among North Europeans.

Again, I am not making any confusion between strong median eyefold and inner fold (and frankly, I'm bored to repeat this, again and again, so stop).
By the way, you don't need Inuit to explain Björk eyes (even if some Native American Mt haplogroup may have been found in Iceland). Sami and Finnish ancestry can be found easily in South Norway and Sweden, and obviously this is not always recent ancestry (Sami were pushed to the North by demographic pressure of Germanic speaking Scandinavians).

There are also well known historical events of migration from Scandinavia along the North Sea, from the Vikings to modern days. The most recent event, with tens of thousand migrants, is dated from the XVIth to the XVIIIth centuries, from South Norway to Low Countries. It has been studied by historians, and impacted mostly Amsterdam and Middelburg, but not exclusively. Genealogical research have shown that they were also present at Dunkerque (with thousands living descendants today). And I know that some of them settled in Scotland too.

This, without taking into account commercial relations by the Hanse or not, linking Flanders and England to Bergen or Novgorod.

So, again, I never said it was a frequent trait, but I will not say it is very rare as you do.

Very rare among Western European, yes, but not among North Western Europeans (mostly, people living around the North Sea, from South Scandinavia to North France). I feel it can be see rather commonly (usually touching around 1% of people around us, but sometimes more in some villages).

And I will no more post pictures. Firstly because, I don't like doing it, and I feel it is always putting a thread array. Secondly, because of privacy. As a matter of fact, I didn't ask to take a picture of my colleague's eyes, but another one asked and she refused. I don't like the idea to publish pictures of complete strangers either. And it could be illegal anyway (in fact, it is illegal). And I don't have anymore my great grand mother picture (since my pc crashed some years ago).

Anyway, those traits have been studied, and this is not the aim of this thread. I have already the statiscal answer, which is simply confirming my feeling. I only wanted to let people express their own experience on the subject, and perhaps find some subpopulation with more examples than others.

Kristiina
03-17-2018, 07:43 AM
Ffoucart, you should keep in mind that the Siberian traits probably preceded the modern languages spoken in the Northern North Europe. For example Sami people are very diverse in their looks.

anglesqueville
03-17-2018, 08:24 AM
As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). We are then in the same situation as with the cephalic index, for example. We have a strong intuition that those characters can reflect something real in terms of genetics population, but we cannot easily go further than this intuition. For example, many people on my paternal side have "something special" in their eyes shape, something very unusual in France, and we have good reasons to think that this "special thing" is inherited from my father's mother. But we are pretty unable to tell more, just because of the lack of a solid connection with some genetic polymorphisms. This frustrating situation is in fact more or less the reality of all the phenotypical characters. You know that even the heritability of the cephalic index has been fiercely debated, and the genetic process that leads to the fixation of the lactose tolerance in north-western Europe is debated as well. Those topics are in fact very difficult.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:32 AM
Everything has sagged a bit over the years. :) More "hooded" maybe?

22133

Yes, and in close view there are less "epicanthic".

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:34 AM
i get russian/siberian too. crappy 23andme even gave me yakut :l

We discussed it some time ago by PM regarding your K47, and for me you really looks Eastern-shifted for Britain.

ffoucart
03-17-2018, 09:34 AM
Ffoucart, you should keep in mind that the Siberian traits probably preceded the modern languages spoken in the Northern North Europe. For example Sami people are very diverse in their looks.

Exactly. It's also interesting to note that many calculators are showing a low East Asian/Siberian admixture signal in Northern European. Among with aDNA showing some EA peculiarities already present in Northern Europe thousands of years ago.

By the way, the last study about Migration Age in Bavaria is also showing some samples with East Asian ancestry, and we know from Archeology that Artificial Deformed Skull can be found in different places from Crimea to Normandy (and in France, in Alsace, Burgondy,...).

I am not saying that there is some connection to specific traits, but only that there are historical events which could back some low level East Asian and/or Siberian ancestry in North Western Europeans.


As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). [...]. Those topics are in fact very difficult.


I never said anything about heritability, only about statistics. Some epithantic folds could be connected to diseases.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:35 AM
3 generations later

22132

Right child the same eye shape like grandma, nice.

lukaszM
03-17-2018, 09:37 AM
As far as I know ( but perhaps I did'nt search far enough) the heritability of the "periocular" characters, to say it short ( eyelids, eyes shapes, etc) has not beed very soundly studied (if I missed some solid text, I'll be really happy if somebody can give me references). We are then in the same situation as with the cephalic index, for example. We have a strong intuition that those characters can reflect something real in terms of genetics population, but we cannot easily go further than this intuition. For example, many people on my paternal side have "something special" in their eyes shape, something very unusual in France, and we have good reasons to think that this "special thing" is inherited from my father's mother. But we are pretty unable to tell more, just because of the lack of a solid connection with some genetic polymorphisms. This frustrating situation is in fact more or less the reality of all the phenotypical characters. You know that even the heritability of the cephalic index has been fiercely debated, and the genetic process that leads to the fixation of the lactose tolerance in north-western Europe is debated as well. Those topics are in fact very difficult.

Recently Boas studies on CI complete lack of heritable were revealed as hoax made up from political reasons. His examples were studied again and were so many inconsistencies. Later I can look for this paper.
But again we have new studies which show some genetic component in head shape. For example http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.23186/full or facial traits http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002932 or facial and nasal traits https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms11616

Squad
03-17-2018, 09:54 AM
The mutation from T to C on the EDAR gene (called EDAR+) arose some 35 000 years ago in East Asia and resulted in many mongoloid features which were then selected in eastern asian populations. Although the mutation does not cause epicanthic eyefolds as far as I know, the fact that populations with a high frequency of EDAR+ also have a high incidence of such eyefolds makes it quite certain that any population carrying EDAR+ would spread epicanthic folds as well. The mutation was found in 4 out of 7 Motala hunther-gatherers from Sweden and it is certainly linked with the arrival of Y-DNA Q1a in Scandinavia, today represented by two sub-clades Q-L527 and Q-L804, the closest clade to the american Q-M3.

Jessie
03-17-2018, 10:21 AM
Yes, eyefolds are very common in Northern Euros, but they're almost always external, as Lukasz has said.

The exquisite Catherine Zeta Jones (Welsh-Irish, so a northern Euro) seemed to have a lot of fat around her eyes when she was very young, but none of it covered her inner eye and it looks like she lost it when she got older...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/53/ce/08/53ce0816c58b37688c77495659bfb6ca--catherine-zeta-jones-catherine-ohara.jpg
http://static.cleverst.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/07074303/Humble-Beginnings.jpg

Anyway, true epicanthus in NW Euros is very rare.

Yes those sort of eyes are quite common in Irish people. Irish author Frank McCourt is a good example.

http://i65.tinypic.com/k9q1d.jpg

Stephen1986
03-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Here's my eyes which seem to be hooded although I'm not sure if they're just affected by my being overweight. I've always thought that the eyes of a lot of people in my area, including myself, are quite small but that appears to be common in much of Northern and Western Europe. I have zero epicanthic fold, I've never seen it in any of my relatives which is to be expected.

22160

anglesqueville
03-17-2018, 11:06 AM
Right child the same eye shape like grandma, nice.

She is now around 30 and looks really north-russian or east-finnish, very close to her great-grand mother. Unfortunately I'm not allowed by her to post recent pictures (people in my family considere that all genetic and genealogic informations are very sensitive, I already gave rise to familial scandals because of my participation to forums, and I'm rather tired of it :\ ) . I posted some months ago on another thread a photo montage with 3 generations on this line. The man in the middle (one of my uncles) was really impressive, but unfortunately the photographic quality is pathetic:

22161

corner
03-17-2018, 12:06 PM
3 generations later

22132Myself, relations and some friends looked very similar at that age. This is our paternal great, great grandfather. The family were living in rural/coastal northeast Yorkshire for as far back as I can trace.

https://image.ibb.co/eA11pc/ECb_wsm.jpg

kitbluee
03-18-2018, 10:56 PM
We discussed it some time ago by PM regarding your K47, and for me you really looks Eastern-shifted for Britain.

putting my 23andme data in gedmatch gives me 2 russian grandparents sometimes lol

ffoucart
03-29-2018, 02:41 PM
Well, I didn't look at this part of myself before, but my right eye is exactly like this (not my picture obviously):

22385

The epicanthus on my left eye is far less apparent.

skyyrie
04-04-2018, 01:04 AM
epicanthus is the associated with strong neotenized people,when their Supraorbital ridges faltten,the excessive skin fall upon the eyes,and forming epicanthic looking

Mystery
07-03-2018, 12:51 AM
I know someone with eyes (if blue) close to the Mongolid example (post 35). Apologies, am not posting picture for privacy reasons. But she constantly get Finnish DNA (5+%, test depending) & has a mtdna haplogroup very common among Saami.

AlexRus
07-13-2018, 03:45 PM
I noticed some Lithuanians have legit epicanthic folds. Why? Russians too but their case is understandable given their close connection to many Asiatic groups.

Hell, even my own mother had one as do I(though its hardly noticeable).

You have a lot of myths about Russia. In addition to the Epicanthus in Russia along the roads go bears, and everyone drinks vodka, even small children - instead of milk ..

Epicanthus is discussed in many Russian anthropological forums. This problem epicanthus in Russians is rare in children, and then disappears. In adults, epicanthus occurs in 1% of the population. This is less common than in Western Europe. Very rarely epicanthus occurs in the north of Russia, almost never. This is surprising, since it is assumed that in the northeast of Russia there was a mixture with Finno-Ugric people.

Probably, you traveled to large cities, where not only the Russian population lives, but also other peoples. In Russia, in megacities, many migrants from Central Asia. You met an Uzbek or a Yakut and thought it was Russian. Sometimes it happens to foreigners. However, in Europe there are even more migrants. In Paris, according to my observations, up to 80% of representatives of Africa and Asia, Turkey. But we do not believe that the indigenous French are black.


PS

Epicanthus in Scandinavia and Northern Europe, perhaps from the Saami or the undifferentiated Paleo-Europeans? Some Scandinavians also have broad cheekbones, and many Belarusians and some north-western Russians (this is the same north, but not the West of Europe) have rare hairs on their beards. I met the opinion that this is a paleo-European heritage.

AlexRus
07-13-2018, 11:20 PM
In adults, epicanthus occurs in 1% of the population.

It's wrong! Here is a quote from anthropologist Professor Alekseeva T. I : "the Presence of epicanthus for the Russian population is extremely rare. Among those studied during the Russian anthropological expedition, only 0.2% have epicanthus, and even then only in a weak or rudimentary form. ".

Russian translation:

"Наличие эпикантуса для русского населения - чрезвычайно редкое явление. Среди изученных в ходе Русской антропологической экспедиции только 0,2% имеют эпикантус , да и то лишь в слабой или зачаточной форме."

These Russian Asian Mongols, Real Slavs are not)))
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Ethereal
07-14-2018, 03:15 AM
This can be due to genuine Mongoloid admixture in the case of say the Finns, but with NW Euros it almost always is due to the occasional resemblance to Cro-Magnon, which looked like Oliver Kahn :)

AlexRus
07-14-2018, 10:42 AM
This can be due to genuine Mongoloid admixture in the case of say the Finns, but with NW Euros it almost always is due to the occasional resemblance to Cro-Magnon, which looked like Oliver Kahn :)

Could it be due to a genuine Mongoloid impurity? Is that a Mongoloid admixture too?
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Could it be due to a genuine Mongoloid impurity? Is that a Mongoloid admixture too? Epicanthus Finns and NW-Euro from the Sami or the undifferentiated Paleosurface. B)

AlexRus
07-14-2018, 11:13 AM
She is now around 30 and looks really north-russian or east-finnish, very close to her great-grand mother. Unfortunately I'm not allowed by her to post recent pictures (people in my family considere that all genetic and genealogic informations are very sensitive, I already gave rise to familial scandals because of my participation to forums, and I'm rather tired of it :\ ) . I posted some months ago on another thread a photo montage with 3 generations on this line. The man in the middle (one of my uncles) was really impressive, but unfortunately the photographic quality is pathetic:

22161
You don't know The Russian North. Russian North-is primarily Slavs and a large admixture of the Baltic States. They are the most Nordic of the Slavs, similar to Estonians, Latvians and are very different from the Eastern Finns. This is due to the paleo-European impurities common to the Circum-Baltic region, which is in the Baltic States and the Estonians and the Suomi and Swedes.


This is Pomor. Subethnos of the Russian North. They are the northernmost and show the autosomes proximity to the Finno-Ugrians:

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These are Northern Russians from Arkhangelsk and Vologda.:

The head of administration of the Arkhangelsk area
Dement'evo Kotlassky district of the Arkhangelsk region in the family of employees, Russian.
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This simple man, the chauffeur
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Kurki
07-30-2018, 03:57 AM
I'd chalk only sparing most northern amounts up to Sami, possibly. Consider location and historical background...southern Siberia? Central? We have problems straight up Sami on the Swedish side, possibly on Norwegian side too. All I see are very hooded eyes. So much my mom has had surgery suggested so her lids don't interfere with her visit. The Swede Sami, especially around Jokkmokk and south, don't have very clearly Siberian eye features. Mostly almond eye features of Sweden. Finnish Sami tend to have somewhat more Siberian features in their eyes. But this is a generalization. And note, they did not head out and trade around Europe. It was weird enough to mix with local Swedes and Norwegians via local trade or getting Lutheranized or whatever went on. But I have heard no theory on how Sami features could travel around Europe. Siberian... Sure. And Bjork does not look Sami, btw...

ffoucart
07-30-2018, 02:06 PM
But I have heard no theory on how Sami features could travel around Europe. Siberian... Sure. And Bjork does not look Sami, btw...
Even if Sami didn't travelled around Europe, if Norwegians and Swedes have some Sami admixture since a long time, some Sami descendants did travel throughout Europe, at least since the Vikings Age.

dsb
08-08-2018, 04:10 PM
Hello. I am 100% Northern European with all ancestors from around the North Sea. These are my eyes. My tear ducts are swollen today due to environmental smoke, but do my eyes not have true epicanthic folds?
edit: I apparently can't post images as I'm a new member, but they are here at imgur com/a/csHfiT3

Bas
08-08-2018, 09:37 PM
Hello. I am 100% Northern European with all ancestors from around the North Sea. These are my eyes. My tear ducts are swollen today due to environmental smoke, but do my eyes not have true epicanthic folds?
edit: I apparently can't post images as I'm a new member, but they are here at imgur com/a/csHfiT3

I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

ffoucart
08-09-2018, 06:04 AM
I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

dsb
08-13-2018, 02:07 AM
I think not, if you can see the pink bit in the inside corner of your eye, then you do not have an epicanthic fold. There is a little bit of a fold, but it has to be covered completely.

The very point of evolving one might well have been to have this part of the eye protected completely.

Thank you. I had heard it theorized as a snow reflection adaption. If your view is correct, then it would seem that many Asians don't have epicanthic folds as the tear duct area is visible in many eyes of that people, as ffoucart states:


Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

For example:
http:--josephwalrathmd.com/wp-content/gallery/eoy-2014/dynamic/AB-Pre.jpg-nggid03226-ngg0dyn-450x0x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpg
and
http:--1.bp.blogspot.com/-FnjMaKMiuzM/U2EZrLfOy9I/AAAAAAAAAQY/rba9D-Y4HNI/s1600/DSC03326+(2)+-+Copy.JPG

In any case, the pink area is usually visible but not as swollen. Here is a picture of my eye from when I was a kid. Does it seem to fit your criteria in this pic?
https:--i.imgur.com/w0F2WST.jpg

Nino90
08-16-2018, 07:11 AM
I have noticed that many children have it. When they grew older it disappear.

Finns and Sami people have it. But I have also seen it in Norwegians and Swedes.

lukaszM
09-05-2018, 08:08 AM
I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

Worth to remind this again. Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongoloendoppelfalte on picture). You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

lukaszM
09-05-2018, 08:09 AM
I think you are mistaken. Not all EA have a complete inner epicanthic fold (covering completely the corner of the eye). Inner epicanthic fold is all that matters.

Remember that technically "epicanthic fold" could be also external (which is rather common among european).

Worth to remind this again.

Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongolonendoppelfalte on picture).

You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.

Martin R., Saller K., Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung mit besonderer Berücksichtigung der anthropologischen Methoden. Bd. 3., 1962

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/antropometria/cefaloskopia/fa%C5%82dymartin.jpg

ffoucart
09-05-2018, 10:08 AM
Worth to remind this again. Africans and Amerindians alo have their own eye folds.

East-Asians have even double fold (Mongoloendoppelfalte on picture). You see also which fold covers eye corner and which not.


What is the point of your post?

Anyway, those are examples of several populations, and don't show internal variability in a said population.

dodona
02-23-2020, 02:59 PM
heavy eye lids are no epicantic fold.

MethCat
06-11-2020, 10:50 PM
Living in Norway all my life I've honestly only seen it once in a friend of mine and he outright told me he has Sami roots so...

Its an anecdote so I know it doesn't count for much but I'd say its exceedingly rare among ethnic Norwegians South of Troms. Facial features stand out to me yet I can't remember the last time I saw a Norwegian with epicanthic folds apart from in my friend like 11 years ago.

JoeyP37
06-14-2020, 12:04 AM
It is said that all Caucasoid fetuses have the epicanthal fold, but it disappears in the last few weeks of gestation. I was born four weeks premature, so I did not lose mine. I also have heavy brows, borealization it is called I think; my sister says I look like the Chinese basketball great Yao Ming, although not in height, as at five foot nine I am closer in height to the average Chinese than a giant seven foot tall center. We are 7/8 Northwest European, and my sister-of course the same one, as I have only one-suffered from Dupuytren's contracture, the famed Viking disease, having surgery to repair it in her late 20s.

MethCat
07-07-2020, 04:54 PM
That would perhaps be better classified as pseudo-epicanthal folds then.

Pretty sure all babies period have pseudo-epicanthal folds, so its nothing specific to Caucasoids.

Henry Stevens
08-15-2020, 11:17 PM
External, lateral eye fold is all I have noticed. I took this to be the Nordic fold without ever thinking much about it. I just assumed a Sami origin, passed to Northern Europeans.

Onur Dincer
08-15-2020, 11:46 PM
Of the fold types, only complete fold and internal fold are characteristically associated with Mongoloid morphology, external and median folds can be found in a lot of Caucasoids as well, though more common in the northern regions than in the south.

Alain
08-16-2020, 06:32 AM
Of the fold types, only complete fold and internal fold are characteristically associated with Mongoloid morphology, external and median folds can be found in a lot of Caucasoids as well, though more common in the northern regions than in the south.

What does it actually look like with cat eyes that are very pointed at the end, what can be said about their structure and which origin it is based on, after southern Europe the eyes are mostly larger

Onur Dincer
08-16-2020, 12:22 PM
What does it actually look like with cat eyes that are very pointed at the end, what can be said about their structure and which origin it is based on, after southern Europe the eyes are mostly larger

It is probably related to the borealization phenomenon mentioned on this thread when explaining the origin of the folds found among the Caucasoids.

davit
09-16-2020, 04:58 PM
Of the fold types, only complete fold and internal fold are characteristically associated with Mongoloid morphology, external and median folds can be found in a lot of Caucasoids as well, though more common in the northern regions than in the south.


It is probably related to the borealization phenomenon mentioned on this thread when explaining the origin of the folds found among the Caucasoids.

I have hooded/hunter eyes which is surprising given everyone in my family has almond eyes.
Kind of like these guys:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/50/3f/80503f5c8c5e9aea5d5f460898022834.jpg
https://magnumworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/niceeyes1.jpg

I also read somewhere than every Caucasoid genetic component (except Levant_N and Anatolia_N) is between 10 (Iran_N,CHG)-25% (ANS, ANE) East Eurasian. Couldn't this be an East Eurasian trait from way back when or did this form as an adaptation to colder climates? Do we know what mutation encodes for this?

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 05:09 PM
I have hooded/hunter eyes which is surprising given everyone in my family has almond eyes.
Kind of like these guys:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/50/3f/80503f5c8c5e9aea5d5f460898022834.jpg
https://magnumworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/niceeyes1.jpg

I also read somewhere than every Caucasoid genetic component (except Levant_N and Anatolia_N) is between 10 (Iran_N,CHG)-25% (ANS, ANE) East Eurasian. Couldn't this be an East Eurasian trait from way back when or did this form as an adaptation to colder climates? Do we know what mutation encodes for this?

Then you have median folds, which can be found in fully Caucasoid types as well.

As to your question, we do not know a modern Caucasoid population without some individuals with median or external folds, so it is hard to say if those traits came from non-Caucasoid admixture, evolved independently among Caucasoids or already existed among early undifferentiated Eurasians.

Finn
09-16-2020, 05:34 PM
I've observed many times around me that some North Western Europeans have what's look like epicanthic gold (as my father and his grandmother, from a picture).
In Flanders is quite common (as in other parts of Low Countries) and as in some parts of Germany. I've found that it is also quite common in Scandinavia.

Do other people have seen the same?

Does this fall into epicanthic fold?

https://www.mupload.nl/img/4ev5aezfj.29.33.png

Alain
09-16-2020, 06:11 PM
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My eyes are normal, only at the end very pointed at my grandma even more and my cousin even has a slight upper eyelid fold
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davit
09-16-2020, 06:41 PM
Then you have median folds, which can be found in fully Caucasoid types as well.

As to your question, we do not know a modern Caucasoid population without some individuals with median or external folds, so it is hard to say if those traits came from non-Caucasoid admixture, evolved independently among Caucasoids or already existed among early undifferentiated Eurasians.

What would you bet on if you had to guess?

East Asians don't really have median folds do they?

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 07:45 PM
What would you bet on if you had to guess?

East Asians don't really have median folds do they?

East Asians have all sorts of fold, including no fold. My bet is that these traits all come from the common ancestors of Eurasians, who in turn brought them from Africa. Africans have people with folds too.

davit
09-16-2020, 07:49 PM
East Asians have all sorts of fold, including no fold. My bet is that these traits all come from the common ancestors of Eurasians, who in turn brought them from Africa. Africans have people with folds too.


That makes sense. I wonder what Basal Eurasians or Crown Eurasian looked like. Do you think the East Eurasian in ANE, WHG and Iran_N has affected European phenotypes (especially NW and Scandinavian pehnotypes) or is it too minor to do that?

Riverman
09-16-2020, 08:08 PM
Does this fall into epicanthic fold?

Your eyes are the opposite of an epicanthic fold, they are completely open in the inner eye region. What you have is typical for many Europeans and Northern Europeans in particular, especially from a certain age on, namely a "drooping eyelid" (don't have a better term right now). Its simply caused by an excess of saggy skin at the upper eyelid. Its usually stronger at the outer corner of the eye, whereas the exact opposite is true of a true epicanthic fold. Your inner corner with the lacrimal region is completely free and open. which is exactly the part affected by the true epicanthic fold.

The true epicanthic fold is can be an archaic trait, but in the typical East Asian shape its more likely to be an adaptation, both by social-sexual selection and in adaptation to extreme cold and light intensity. One speculation, among many others, was it helps against snow blindness somewhat, but I never saw an actual study testing or comparing this. Also, its a rather child-like and juvenile trait to some degree, so it might therefore be in part sexual selection.

Pseudo-epicanthic folds can also be caused by various conditions, caused by genetic as well as environmental causes, like drug and alcohol abuse of the mother during pregnancy.

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 08:17 PM
That makes sense. I wonder what Basal Eurasians or Crown Eurasian looked like. Do you think the East Eurasian in ANE, WHG and Iran_N has affected European phenotypes (especially NW and Scandinavian pehnotypes) or is it too minor to do that?

Depends on the nature and timing of those "East Eurasians." Mongoloid phenotype as we know is a later development in East Eurasia. For instance, Jomons and pure Ainus lack it, so clearly it was not so widespread in East Eurasia yet during the beginning of the isolation of the Jomon ancestors. AASI, Paleo-Oceanians and Paleo-SE Asians lack it too, though they separated from the bulk of the ancestors of modern East Eurasians earlier than the Jomon ancestors did.

davit
09-16-2020, 08:27 PM
Depends on the nature and timing of those "East Eurasians." Mongoloid phenotype as we know is a later development in East Eurasia. For instance, Jomons and pure Ainus lack it, so clearly it was not so widespread in East Eurasia yet during the beginning of the isolation of the Jomon ancestors. AASI, Paleo-Oceanians and Paleo-SE Asians lack it too, though they separated from the bulk of the ancestors of modern East Eurasians earlier than the Jomon ancestors did.

I meant to ask regardless of whether it was Mongoloid. What would Tianyuan man looked like? I'm guessing that or Salkhit is the source of East Eurasian admixture in WHG/SHG/EHG/CHG/ANE. Something similar to SE Asians given he predates the Mongoloid phenotype?

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 09:17 PM
I meant to ask regardless of whether it was Mongoloid. What would Tianyuan man looked like? I'm guessing that or Salkhit is the source of East Eurasian admixture in WHG/SHG/EHG/CHG/ANE. Something similar to SE Asians given he predates the Mongoloid phenotype?

Modern SE Asians are largely Mongoloid-descended because of the Neolithic farmer migrations from what is now southern China. Tianyuan predates the Jomon-Proto-Mongoloid split, so should have a more Paleo-Eurasian (in modern human sense) look.

davit
09-17-2020, 10:53 AM
Modern SE Asians are largely Mongoloid-descended because of the Neolithic farmer migrations from what is now southern China. Tianyuan predates the Jomon-Proto-Mongoloid split, so should have a more Paleo-Eurasian (in modern human sense) look.

He would have still been on the eastern side of the Eurasian split though so I imagine he still looked a bit different from Sunghir or Kosenteki and such? And he is the ancestor of most Europeans or someone like him? Sorry for bombarding you with questions.

Anyways will we ever figure out the origins of these folds? I'm sure some gene encodes for them.

Onur Dincer
09-17-2020, 06:24 PM
He would have still been on the eastern side of the Eurasian split though so I imagine he still looked a bit different from Sunghir or Kosenteki and such? And he is the ancestor of most Europeans or someone like him? Sorry for bombarding you with questions.

Anyways will we ever figure out the origins of these folds? I'm sure some gene encodes for them.

Tianyuan man and his kindred are not ancestral to most Europeans, they are ancestral to most East Eurasians instead. It is the opposite for Kostenki and Sunghir.

xenus
09-17-2020, 11:55 PM
The EDAR mutation that shows a similar east/west divide didn't reach fixation in the Beringians. It was also found in Motala which is dated to 7,900-7,500 BP. Likewise the ancestral gene is found in some ancient native americans like Anzick-1.

It'd be easy for something to stick around at low levels. After east/west contact picked up and the Uralic migrations I wouldn't be too surprised to see it in a few random people.

Granary
09-18-2020, 12:41 AM
Does this fall into epicanthic fold?

Those are hooded eyes, as far as I know they are not particularly rare, I have also the exact same setup as you do despite being mixed-race myself.

icebreaker
09-18-2020, 06:56 PM
Norwegian chess grandmaster Magnus Carslen (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/39/5b/fd395bc336540d2fed9a9f0b1a888997.jpg) is quite "mongoloid" looking for a northern European.

Riverman
09-19-2020, 10:15 PM
Norwegian chess grandmaster Magnus Carslen (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/39/5b/fd395bc336540d2fed9a9f0b1a888997.jpg) is quite "mongoloid" looking for a northern European.

Yet it has zero to do with Mongoloid anatomy or the true epicanthic fold. He rather has very low, rectangular, quite deep and fairly small orbits with a very deep nasion in comparison to the glabellar region. He has other facial peculiarities, which can be interpreted in many ways and are somewhat out of the ordinary, but all of this has zero to do with East Asian proper. And his eyes are completely free from any sort of epicanthic fold, whether be it pseudo or true one. He will get, because of his eye regions anatomy and soft parts, quite hooded eyes when aging.

parasar
09-20-2020, 04:41 PM
The EDAR mutation that shows a similar east/west divide didn't reach fixation in the Beringians. It was also found in Motala which is dated to 7,900-7,500 BP. Likewise the ancestral gene is found in some ancient native americans like Anzick-1.

It'd be easy for something to stick around at low levels. After east/west contact picked up and the Uralic migrations I wouldn't be too surprised to see it in a few random people.

"Our data show that a variant in EDAR that affects tooth shape, hair follicles and thickness, sweat, and mammary gland ductal branching and that occurs at nearly 100%
frequency in present day Native Americans and East Asians
(Kamberov et al., 2013) was not fixed in USR1, Anzick-1, a
Brazil_LapaDoSanto_9600BP individual and a Brazil_Laranjal_
6700BP individual, all of whom carry the ancestral allele
(Table S7)."
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/Posth_Reich_2018_Reconstructing-the-Deep-Population-History-of.pdf

Anzick-1 indeed was not fixed for EDAR, but heterogenous.
"USR1 was heterozygous for the EDAR mutation. Anzick 1 was also heterozygous for it ... all pure modern Amerindian populations are fixed or close to being fixed for the mutation."
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/phenotype-snps-from-early-holocene-alaska/

Alain
09-20-2020, 04:52 PM
Norwegian chess grandmaster Magnus Carslen (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/39/5b/fd395bc336540d2fed9a9f0b1a888997.jpg) is quite "mongoloid" looking for a northern European.

I think it looks Mediterranean

Alain
09-20-2020, 05:17 PM
"Our data show that a variant in EDAR that affects tooth shape, hair follicles and thickness, sweat, and mammary gland ductal branching and that occurs at nearly 100%
frequency in present day Native Americans and East Asians
(Kamberov et al., 2013) was not fixed in USR1, Anzick-1, a
Brazil_LapaDoSanto_9600BP individual and a Brazil_Laranjal_
6700BP individual, all of whom carry the ancestral allele
(Table S7)."
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/Posth_Reich_2018_Reconstructing-the-Deep-Population-History-of.pdf

Anzick-1 indeed was not fixed for EDAR, but heterogenous.
"USR1 was heterozygous for the EDAR mutation. Anzick 1 was also heterozygous for it ... all pure modern Amerindian populations are fixed or close to being fixed for the mutation."
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/phenotype-snps-from-early-holocene-alaska/

It is very interesting with Ancestral A and Ancestral B you can also establish a connection with languages ​​through the migration of the native peoples of America. Almost all languages ​​belong to the macro family "Amerid" only the Na-Dené languages ​​do not belong to it? that some indigenous tribes in Brazil have a genetic connection to the populations in the Pacific area (Papa New Guinea), early contacts or was there a population in the Amazon basin before the "natives"?

davit
09-23-2020, 05:12 PM
Yet it has zero to do with Mongoloid anatomy or the true epicanthic fold. He rather has very low, rectangular, quite deep and fairly small orbits with a very deep nasion in comparison to the glabellar region. He has other facial peculiarities, which can be interpreted in many ways and are somewhat out of the ordinary, but all of this has zero to do with East Asian proper. And his eyes are completely free from any sort of epicanthic fold, whether be it pseudo or true one. He will get, because of his eye regions anatomy and soft parts, quite hooded eyes when aging.

Are hooded eyes considered Mongoloid in your opinion?


"Our data show that a variant in EDAR that affects tooth shape, hair follicles and thickness, sweat, and mammary gland ductal branching and that occurs at nearly 100%
frequency in present day Native Americans and East Asians
(Kamberov et al., 2013) was not fixed in USR1, Anzick-1, a
Brazil_LapaDoSanto_9600BP individual and a Brazil_Laranjal_
6700BP individual, all of whom carry the ancestral allele
(Table S7)."
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/Posth_Reich_2018_Reconstructing-the-Deep-Population-History-of.pdf

Anzick-1 indeed was not fixed for EDAR, but heterogenous.
"USR1 was heterozygous for the EDAR mutation. Anzick 1 was also heterozygous for it ... all pure modern Amerindian populations are fixed or close to being fixed for the mutation."
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/01/06/phenotype-snps-from-early-holocene-alaska/

Are hooded eyes controlled by EDAR?

Riverman
09-24-2020, 03:51 PM
Are hooded eyes considered Mongoloid in your opinion?

Not at all, they completely different from the true epicanthic fold at the inner eye corner, common in East Asians/Mongoloids. Hooded eyes are fairly common in (especially older) North Western Europeans and are just saggy skin, stronger at the outer corner of the eye.

JoeyP37
09-24-2020, 08:32 PM
I have eyes like Carlsen and am 87.5% Northwestern European; I seriously doubt the .7% Native American I also carry would influence it.

davit
09-24-2020, 10:08 PM
Not at all, they completely different from the true epicanthic fold at the inner eye corner, common in East Asians/Mongoloids. Hooded eyes are fairly common in (especially older) North Western Europeans and are just saggy skin, stronger at the outer corner of the eye.

They look really strong and masculine imo.

https://magnumworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/niceeyes1.jpg

Mirix
09-27-2020, 05:34 PM
Epicanthic fold in Western Europe is likely due to them mixing with mongoloids and sami people. And that is crossover trait due to that.

These people live spread out in Siberia, North Western Europe and Antartica. Inuits and Nganasan are an example. Sami people seem to be more mixed with Scandinavian germanic tribes so they look like a quasi mongoloid-scandi at times.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/9e/e8/b69ee83bc4a485c8e98de7e5bdffec75.jpg

Riverman
09-27-2020, 05:46 PM
Epicanthic fold in Western Europe is likely due to them mixing with mongoloids and sami people. And that is crossover trait due to that.

These people live spread out in Siberia, North Western Europe and Antartica. Inuits and Nganasan are an example. Sami people seem to be more mixed with Scandinavian germanic tribes so they look like a quasi mongoloid-scandi at times.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b6/9e/e8/b69ee83bc4a485c8e98de7e5bdffec75.jpg

The funny thing is that this individual you presented has very strong Mongoloid traits otherwise, but no real, especially no pronounced epicanthic fold. His inner eye corner is free and the fold is upwards of the cilia. These Siberians had not always that storng Mongoloid features. Compare with this typical eye shape with a true and pronounced epicanthic fold:
https://iv1.lisimg.com/image/7256228/600full-khulan-chuluun.jpg

Mirix
09-28-2020, 08:40 PM
The funny thing is that this individual you presented has very strong Mongoloid traits otherwise, but no real, especially no pronounced epicanthic fold. His inner eye corner is free and the fold is upwards of the cilia. These Siberians had not always that storng Mongoloid features. Compare with this typical eye shape with a true and pronounced epicanthic fold:

Just noticed it now. Ironically some Asians have double eyelids at a rarer rate and still maintain the same eye ship. The eye shape of that girl and that siberian man are very similar to eachother nonetheless.

davit
09-28-2020, 11:26 PM
Just noticed it now. Ironically some Asians have double eyelids at a rarer rate and still maintain the same eye ship. The eye shape of that girl and that siberian man are very similar to eachother nonetheless.

Can someone explain the difference between an epicanthic fold and other folds? Are these epicanthic folds or how would you describe them?

https://i.redd.it/esvjjxmudqm21.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-409088aa3654d3f8d773319b5fafe613
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/66/9a/4e/669a4ea3008c5e749b1bbde542673e79.jpg
https://magnumworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/niceeyes1.jpg

Also is it me but does these type of eyes in Europeans have are very horizontally aligned whereas folded eyes in Asian more diagonally aligned?

Riverman
09-29-2020, 08:20 AM
Just noticed it now. Ironically some Asians have double eyelids at a rarer rate and still maintain the same eye ship. The eye shape of that girl and that siberian man are very similar to eachother nonetheless.

But small and slanted/oblique eyes are not the same as the folded ones. You are right nevertheless, its almost as if a single small change would make them the same.


Can someone explain the difference between an epicanthic fold and other folds?

Just google it, there are many pictoral descriptions of the anatomy out there, everything described in detail. Like:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/e7/6c/30e76cd562ec1c5dee41d060c59e7f15.jpg

You see the true epicanthic fold is covering the upper eye lid with a clear line going straight to the inner corner of the eye and partially covering the lacrimal zone in most clear cases, especially if looking at it from the side which being covered by the fold.


Are these epicanthic folds or how would you describe them?

First and second have North West European hooded eyes, third and fourth show signs of reduced epicanthic fold, you see the folding, the clear line going along the inner corner of the eye. Its borderline, especially 4 is very weak and questionable, but sometimes mixed people in the 2nd to 3rd generation get it or by chance in a more complex inheritance pattern.


Also is it me but does these type of eyes in Europeans have are very horizontally aligned whereas folded eyes in Asian more diagonally aligned?

Relatively yes, but I'm not sure if we both mean the same thing.

Alain
09-29-2020, 08:25 AM
39644

My eyes are normal, only at the end very pointed at my grandma even more and my cousin even has a slight upper eyelid fold
39645

Riverman what would you say to those eyes?

Riverman
09-29-2020, 09:14 AM
Riverman what would you say to those eyes?

No fold in first as far as I can see, second not recognisable.

Alain
09-29-2020, 10:09 AM
No fold in first as far as I can see, second not recognisable.

Do I have to take a better picture at some point, what strikes me as the eyes are very sharp

davit
09-29-2020, 10:47 AM
But small and slanted/oblique eyes are not the same as the folded ones. You are right nevertheless, its almost as if a single small change would make them the same.



Just google it, there are many pictoral descriptions of the anatomy out there, everything described in detail. Like:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/e7/6c/30e76cd562ec1c5dee41d060c59e7f15.jpg

You see the true epicanthic fold is covering the upper eye lid with a clear line going straight to the inner corner of the eye and partially covering the lacrimal zone in most clear cases, especially if looking at it from the side which being covered by the fold.



First and second have North West European hooded eyes, third and fourth show signs of reduced epicanthic fold, you see the folding, the clear line going along the inner corner of the eye. Its borderline, especially 4 is very weak and questionable, but sometimes mixed people in the 2nd to 3rd generation get it or by chance in a more complex inheritance pattern.



Relatively yes, but I'm not sure if we both mean the same thing.

Thanks, I don't think eyes # 3 and 4 belong to mixed people. I wonder what would be causing it given the derived alleles for EDAR are absent. Are there other geese that might account for this that might local adaptations to a Northern European climate?

Riverman
09-29-2020, 11:09 AM
Double

Riverman
09-29-2020, 11:10 AM
Thanks, I don't think eyes # 3 and 4 belong to mixed people. I wonder what would be causing it given the derived alleles for EDAR are absent. Are there other geese that might account for this that might local adaptations to a Northern European climate?

I can't answer that for sure, but I don't thnk the genetic architecture behind the eyelid shape is so easy and most in Northern Europe in particular can be attributed to Uralic admixture IMHO. There is however individual and pathological variation which goes beyond the usual.

davit
09-29-2020, 12:34 PM
I can't answer that for sure, but I don't thnk the genetic architecture behind the eyelid shape is so easy and most in Northern Europe in particular can be attributed to Uralic admixture IMHO. There is however individual and pathological variation which goes beyond the usual.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You think hooded and eyes and slight folds are the result of Uralic admixture?

Riverman
09-29-2020, 01:02 PM
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You think hooded and eyes and slight folds are the result of Uralic admixture?

Hooded eyes not, they are strictly European, but slight folds and pronounced ones more often so. Rarely they are because of individual genetic variation and conditions. Like you see hooded eyes often in Denmark, epicanthic folds, even slight ones, rarely. The frequency rises in places like Finnland and North Eastern Russia because of Uralic ancestry - but its still a small minority of course.

CyrylBojarski
09-29-2020, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You think hooded and eyes and slight folds are the result of Uralic admixture?
Look at people of Finno-Ugric ethnicities, they are like half European half East asian anthropologically.
My Uralic Russian great grandmother looked very Mongolian-like in compassion to my ancestors of other ethnicities

Riverman
09-29-2020, 01:19 PM
Look at people of Finno-Ugric ethnicities, they are like half European half East asian anthropologically.

Really depends on the population in question. Some not at all, only small local minorities have significant amounts, like in Hungarians. Wouldn't lump them together if its about genetic and physical variation. Because it can vary a lot between Hungarian and Estonian on one extreme end vs. Nganasan and Selkup on the other.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian
09-29-2020, 02:13 PM
The bigger Uralic peoples have an unique look to them in my opinion, not something you would get with a half Mongol half Russian necessarily. It tells of deeper origins in my opinion.
39901

Riverman
10-02-2020, 08:43 AM
An important distinction is that hooded eyes oftentimes only appear in later in life and are a sign of "age and wisdom", whereas the exact opposite is true for the epicanthic fold, which can decrease with age. So the smooth epicanthic fold, and this is important for the aspect of sexual selection, is a sign of youth.

Finn
10-02-2020, 11:10 AM
An important distinction is that hooded eyes oftentimes only appear in later in life and are a sign of "age and wisdom", whereas the exact opposite is true for the epicanthic fold, which can decrease with age. So the smooth epicanthic fold, and this is important for the aspect of sexual selection, is a sign of youth.

:thumb::hail:

xenus
10-03-2020, 08:10 AM
An important distinction is that hooded eyes oftentimes only appear in later in life and are a sign of "age and wisdom", whereas the exact opposite is true for the epicanthic fold, which can decrease with age. So the smooth epicanthic fold, and this is important for the aspect of sexual selection, is a sign of youth.

As far as I know the epicanthic fold is considered an important environmental adaptation to cold weather and snow. If it's so easy to conflate a marker of youth with a marker of advanced age then it wouldn't be that great of a discriminator. The variability is also huge for the epicanthic fold itself.
On one hand the moderate fold is clear but not extreme
https://lh4.ggpht.com/_i90KP6_K9qU/SrA7dZbi7hI/AAAAAAAABqk/AourkWG8UpE/s400/reddit.JPG

On the more extreme end of the spectrum we have this example that caused the facial recognition algorithm that New Zealand uses to validate passport photos to fail.
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/161208122737-new-zealand-passport-asian-super-tease.jpg

I'm not saying that there couldn't be sexual selection going on, only that I don't see it being a strong force in play here.

Hawk
10-03-2020, 08:17 AM
I have sort of slanty eyes as well and no East Asian-like autosomal.

Buxoro
10-03-2020, 08:41 AM
Almond eyes here, no sign of epicanthic fold, roughly 15% East Eurasian

Riverman
10-03-2020, 09:41 AM
As far as I know the epicanthic fold is considered an important environmental adaptation to cold weather and snow. If it's so easy to conflate a marker of youth with a marker of advanced age then it wouldn't be that great of a discriminator. The variability is also huge for the epicanthic fold itself.
On one hand the moderate fold is clear but not extreme

On the more extreme end of the spectrum we have this example that caused the facial recognition algorithm that New Zealand uses to validate passport photos to fail.

I'm not saying that there couldn't be sexual selection going on, only that I don't see it being a strong force in play here.

I think first was environmental adaptation to cold and against snow blindness, then followed sexual and social selection after the trend started in a preference for the own. Also, I do think that many traits, even those under selection in the sexual sphere, can have a tendency of an optimum around which there is variance. There is quite a variation in the shape of the eyes in CJK people, which have a long history of higher culture and less environmental dependency already. And I guess for keeping up the optimum almond shaped eyes, there is variance towards both extreme forms and weak ones. But that's of course just speculation from my side.

rikvdb
10-03-2020, 02:45 PM
39980
I kind of have it too...
Sorry for the tilt.
39981

davit
10-03-2020, 08:24 PM
Almond eyes here, no sign of epicanthic fold, roughly 15% East Eurasian

Are you Tajik? I can't think of anybody else being 15% East Eurasian.

loxias
10-03-2020, 08:38 PM
39986I have such eye folds too. I think of them as stereotypically German looking usually. They’re very different from East Asian epicanthic folds. This western Eurasian fold seems to be due to a deep and narrow eye-socket (very low distance between the eyebrow/brow ridge and the eye) which causes the skin between the eye and the eyebrow to hang from it as if from a cantilever. Whereas in East Asians the epicanthic is often accompanied with a very wide distance between eye and eyebrow, and the eyes usually aren’t deepset at all.

Granary
10-04-2020, 02:35 AM
I think first was environmental adaptation to cold and against snow blindness, then followed sexual and social selection after the trend started in a preference for the own. Also, I do think that many traits, even those under selection in the sexual sphere, can have a tendency of an optimum around which there is variance. There is quite a variation in the shape of the eyes in CJK people, which have a long history of higher culture and less environmental dependency already. And I guess for keeping up the optimum almond shaped eyes, there is variance towards both extreme forms and weak ones. But that's of course just speculation from my side.
I find this a bit weird, my impression is that native Americans generally don't have epicanthic folds while Khoisans do, why is that?

rikvdb
10-04-2020, 03:26 AM
I doubt it is brought into central and western Europe by Sami admixed Vikings. I have been told several times those inner folds, along with other traits like high or flattened occiput and straight hair, are Altaic ("Turanid"). Brought into Europe by the Asian Huns or other central Asian people.

rikvdb
10-04-2020, 06:56 AM
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?331904-Portraits-of-Belgian-families&highlight=Belgian
When you look closely, you'll see that some people have this fold as well, though not in a Scandinavian way. Many of the people in the pictures have other traits than the fold as well. I assume this is normal for central European people.

Riverman
10-04-2020, 10:19 AM
I find this a bit weird, my impression is that native Americans generally don't have epicanthic folds while Khoisans do, why is that?

Actually that's not known and there is long time speculation about why some Khoisan have eyefolds and which kind of.

The case of Amerindians is much more clear though, because first they are to a large part Caucasoid related (ANE-like) and the East Asian part is not full fledged core Mongoloid but has still more kind of a Proto-Mongoloid profile. They also went out of the zone of selective pressure for it completely and lived detached from the main body of the Mongoloid populations in the Eastern steppe and at the Chinese rivers.

davit
10-06-2020, 01:35 AM
I doubt it is brought into central and western Europe by Sami admixed Vikings. I have been told several times those inner folds, along with other traits like high or flattened occiput and straight hair, are Altaic ("Turanid"). Brought into Europe by the Asian Huns or other central Asian people.

Straight hair has a East Asian origin? That would require a lot of Altaic admixture in the Europe,Middle East, North Africa and India. What else did Asian huns grace Europe with?

rikvdb
10-06-2020, 03:33 AM
Straight hair has a East Asian origin? That would require a lot of Altaic admixture in the Europe,Middle East, North Africa and India. What else did Asian huns grace Europe with?

I am talking about the type of hair that looks spiked when it is cut short.
Other traits are lack of body hair with some people, a vertical groove in the chest, sharp downward pointing noses...

Riverman
10-06-2020, 08:16 AM
I am talking about the type of hair that looks spiked when it is cut short.
Other traits are lack of body hair with some people, a vertical groove in the chest, sharp downward pointing noses...

Actually its better to explain the thick straight hair of East Asians by simply looking at the cross section of the different hair types:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg

https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg
https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg

davit
10-06-2020, 12:28 PM
I am talking about the type of hair that looks spiked when it is cut short.
Other traits are lack of body hair with some people, a vertical groove in the chest, sharp downward pointing noses...

Then I agree. Thought you meant straight hair in general.

davit
10-06-2020, 12:29 PM
Actually its better to explain the thick straight hair of East Asians by simply looking at the cross section of the different hair types:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg

https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg
https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg


I'm guessing this is related to EDAR?

Riverman
10-06-2020, 12:48 PM
It definitely contributes:

One promising candidate is a derived coding variant of the ectodysplasin A receptor (EDAR), EDARV370A (370A), associated with several phenotypic changes of epidermal appendages. One of the strongest signals of natural selection in human genomes, 370A, has risen to high prevalence in East Asian and Native American populations, whilst being almost absent in Europeans and Africans. This striking frequency distribution and the pleiotropic nature of 370A led us to pursue if hair straightness, another epidermal appendage-related phenotype, is affected by this variant. By studying 1,718 individuals from four distinctive East Asian populations (Han, Tibetan, Mongolian, and Li), we found a significant association between 370A and the straight hair type in the Han (p = 2.90 × 10(-6)), Tibetan (p = 3.07 × 10(-2)), and Mongolian (p = 1.03 × 10(-5)) populations. Combining all the samples, the association is even stronger (p = 5.18 × 10(-10)). The effect of 370A on hair straightness is additive, with an odds ratio of 2.05. The results indicate very different biological mechanisms of straight hair in Europe and Asia, and also present a more comprehensive picture of the phenotypic consequences of 370A, providing important clues into the potential adaptive forces shaping the evolution of this extraordinary genetic variant.

But its more complicated:


herefore, within East Asia,the amount of explained total variance by370Amay varybetween populations. In any case, the small amount ofexplained total variance in Caucasians and East Asians is asharp contrast to the high estimated heritability of hairstraightness (85–95 %) (Medland et al.2009b). This sug-gests that hair straightness involves a large number ofcausal genes, and that the biology of hair straightness couldbe more complex than expected.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23793515/

https://www.picb.ac.cn/picb-dynamic/admin/pic/Human%20Genetics-WSJ.pdf

Alain
10-06-2020, 12:56 PM
It definitely contributes:


But its more complicated:



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23793515/

https://www.picb.ac.cn/picb-dynamic/admin/pic/Human%20Genetics-WSJ.pdf

Thank you, my father has this EDAR mutation on Your DNA Portal and he has really stiff hair

davit
10-18-2020, 02:02 PM
Actually its better to explain the thick straight hair of East Asians by simply looking at the cross section of the different hair types:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/c3/09/e5c309c69f71846fe364233ac311d1a6.jpg

https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg
https://activilong.com/img/cms/coupe_transversale_cheveux_EN.jpg

Is there also a reason why Caucasians would have more strands?

Riverman
10-18-2020, 02:15 PM
Is there also a reason why Caucasians would have more strands?

I can just say its genetic and there is also a difference between blondes and various dark hairs. Blondes have usually finer and more hair per inch, while thicker, coarser hair is more common in specific West Eurasian populations. Usually those which are generally more hairy, like around the Caucasus and Iran, or with respective ancestry from these groups (Iranian Neolithic ancestry).


Minar explains that your hair color signifies how many strands you have on your head at any given time. For example, Asian and African American women, who tend to have black hair, have on average 60,000 strands at a time. Women with blond hair, on the other hand, have on average 450,000. Red and brunette hair falls somewhere in between. The lighter the hair, the more strand

https://www.self.com/story/why-does-hair-fall-out

Piquerobi
10-25-2020, 01:11 PM
Incidentally, and just a guess, possibly some of the distinctive shape of eyes found among Northwest Europeans (and elsewhere where higher steppe input is found) may have come from the Indo-Europeans, or be influenced by them somehow. The ones with the least steppe, like Sardinians, don't seem to show it. I'm referring to the shape of eyes similar to that of this Russian, Sergei Pugachev, for example:

4062340624

Riverman
10-25-2020, 01:39 PM
Just a guess, the shape mentioned may have come from the Indo-Europeans, or be influenced by them somehow, when it comes to Northwest Europeans. The ones with the least steppe, like Sardinians, don't seem to show it. I'm referring to the shape of eyes similar that of this, for example, Sergei Pugachev:

4062340624

I think its generally related to Mesolithic forager ancestry and low, rectangular orbits. You can see it in fairly unmixed Berbers too for example:
https://i1.wp.com/www.powder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/powp-180900-moroc-19-427x640.jpg?w=1600

https://www.powder.com/stories/a-skiers-discovery-in-moroccos-atlas-mountains/

davit
10-26-2020, 11:39 AM
Incidentally, and just a guess, possibly some of the distinctive shape of eyes found among Northwest Europeans (and elsewhere where higher steppe input is found) may have come from the Indo-Europeans, or be influenced by them somehow. The ones with the least steppe, like Sardinians, don't seem to show it. I'm referring to the shape of eyes similar to that of this Russian, Sergei Pugachev, for example:

4062340624

Makes sense. Makes you wonder if Indo-Europeans got it from their WHG, ANE or ENA ancestry? I would bet on WHG.

Riverman
10-26-2020, 12:01 PM
Makes sense. Makes you wonder if Indo-Europeans got it from their WHG, ANE or ENA ancestry? I would bet on WHG.

Most of the Northern derived Mesolithic foragers had rather broad faces with low, rectangular orbits, that's true from Siberia to North Africa. I wouldn't restrict it to any particular subgroup of that time.

davit
11-24-2020, 09:56 AM
Most of the Northern derived Mesolithic foragers had rather broad faces with low, rectangular orbits, that's true from Siberia to North Africa. I wouldn't restrict it to any particular subgroup of that time.

Yea hooded eyes and prominent brow ridges are indications of robustness imo and it would make sense that it was found in all Mesolithic foragers.

Mirix
12-06-2020, 12:35 PM
As far as I know the epicanthic fold is considered an important environmental adaptation to cold weather and snow. If it's so easy to conflate a marker of youth with a marker of advanced age then it wouldn't be that great of a discriminator. The variability is also huge for the epicanthic fold itself.
On one hand the moderate fold is clear but not extreme
https://lh4.ggpht.com/_i90KP6_K9qU/SrA7dZbi7hI/AAAAAAAABqk/AourkWG8UpE/s400/reddit.JPG

On the more extreme end of the spectrum we have this example that caused the facial recognition algorithm that New Zealand uses to validate passport photos to fail.
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/161208122737-new-zealand-passport-asian-super-tease.jpg

If epicanthic fold is an adaptation to cold weather and snow. Why is it more prevelant among East Asians than in Northern Europeans and Siberians?

Riverman
12-06-2020, 12:51 PM
If epicanthic fold is an adaptation to cold weather and snow. Why is it more prevelant among East Asians than in Northern Europeans and Siberians?

Because the core East Asian/Mongoloid group was, in my opinion, in a refuge which was quite extreme. That's why they made various adaptations others didn't to an extremely cold environment and to a social life which demanded to live closely together. Western ANE for example seems to have had a different path way, with an energy diet first and simply evading the coldest spots later. And like blond hair, I think that the eye shape became also a kind of "ethnic signal" once the frequency was higher, which means it became favoured in the sexual and social selection. The latter not necessarily in the extreme form, but since more than one allel being involved, I guess the extreme shapes can be also attributed to a normal distribution in a population in which the trait became, as such, in a more moderate form, nearly fixed.

Mirix
12-06-2020, 02:19 PM
Because the core East Asian/Mongoloid group was, in my opinion, in a refuge which was quite extreme. That's why they made various adaptations others didn't to an extremely cold environment and to a social life which demanded to live closely together. Western ANE for example seems to have had a different path way, with an energy diet first and simply evading the coldest spots later. And like blond hair, I think that the eye shape became also a kind of "ethnic signal" once the frequency was higher, which means it became favoured in the sexual and social selection. The latter not necessarily in the extreme form, but since more than one allel being involved, I guess the extreme shapes can be also attributed to a normal distribution in a population in which the trait became, as such, in a more moderate form, nearly fixed.

I don't know. It still doesn't make sense to me. I have heard the theory of it being an adaptation to tropical and arctic regions where many Asians live , but the problem is there are Asians that have evolved outside of the tropical and arctic regions. Epicanthic fold is not limited to Asians as well. You can find variances of the fold in Europeans, it's just less prevelant. Some other groups as well like the Khoi andsan for example.

''Ethnic signals'' sounds like bro science to me. Because a trait changes or disappears over time if it loses its function. Place a Darkerskinned African in Northern Europe for several thousand years and they will lose their skin pigment to adapt to the decreased sun exposure and cold weather.

Riverman
12-06-2020, 02:35 PM
In other people its not exactly the same frequency and shape. One theory was it somewhat protects from snow blindness, which would be not exactly cold adaptation, but still adaptation to an extremely cold environment.
Besides, most people in East and SEA with epicanthic fold have Northern East Asian ancestry. They descend from Ice Age cold adapted people, to a large degree, even if living now in the tropics.
And the less core EA ancestry they have, usually, the weaker and less frequent are epicanthic fold among them.

And social and sexual cues and signals provide a functional advantage by having better cards in the social and sexual competition. The very modern human physionomies would look quite different otherwise.

DgidguBidgu
12-06-2020, 02:37 PM
If epicanthic fold is an adaptation to cold weather and snow. Why is it more prevelant among East Asians than in Northern Europeans and Siberians?

It seems to me that mixing the above, mentioned by you, with the local old Europeans, has done the main work.

Mirix
12-06-2020, 03:01 PM
It seems to me that mixing the above, mentioned by you, with the local old Europeans, has done the main work.

Yes i did say that, but i am not so sure now. But question is on what the evolutionary origins of epicanthic folds is. Perhaps it is a trait left behind from the ice age like Riverman said . I remember reading somewhere that scientists have found the gene for it and goes back like 30k years

DgidguBidgu
12-06-2020, 03:17 PM
Yes i did say that, but i am not so sure now. But question is on what the evolutionary origins of epicanthic folds is. Perhaps it is a trait left behind from the ice age like Riverman said . I remember reading somewhere that scientists have found the gene for it and goes back like 30k years

I would explain it with the strong and cold north winds mostly, but it is hardly the only reason. Something like curly hair in blacks. Serves for better insulation of the skull.
So we can see it as a natural adaptation to the environment, but not as evolution (I'm not a supporter of the theory), but a mutation.

Riverman
12-06-2020, 03:24 PM
Yes i did say that, but i am not so sure now. But question is on what the evolutionary origins of epicanthic folds is. Perhaps it is a trait left behind from the ice age like Riverman said . I remember reading somewhere that scientists have found the gene for it and goes back like 30k years

Its older for sure, but like with other allels, its sometimes more important how the frequency changed when and in which population, rather than whether it existed at time X. American Indians which are mixed and have Caucasoid tendencies too, have weaker or absent epicanthic folds for example. Same for (old) Siberians, Ainu and South East Asians. So basically you come up with a map in which the core EA ancestral component is directly correlated with the highest frequency of fully developed epicanthic folds and the traits frequency decreases in all directions from there.

A map can help to understand what happened, because the Western ANE which were physically more Caucasoid shifted, were cut off from the Eastern tundra steppe during the LGM:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:Last_Glacial_Maximum_Vegetation_Map.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/File:Last_Glacial_Maximum_Vegetation_Map.svg

You see, between the Western ANE dominated steppe and the Eastern Proto-EA dominated one, there were deserts which were not populated at all or only sparsely so. So the steppe was cut in half, resulting in the final isolation of Caucasoid from Mongoloid populations. The Eastern steppe seems to have been smaller, more packed with people originally, and made it harder to evade the extreme conditions by just moving out of the cold zone. This means the people staying there had only "the choice" of either adapting the best they could to the extreme conditions, or die. And this is what pushed the evolution of the modern East Asians and is primarily responsible for most fixed or frequency traits which they don't share with other people.
Of course, this core group did mix with people which survived to the South, under less extreme circumstances, but I think it will come out that most of the traits largely confined to EA today came from the cold adapted group.

The migration to America is related to this LGM situation as well, because packed in the very North East, with people from the relative South of the zone (Proto-EA) pushing, the mixed ANE-EA groups moved on, over the Bering street. Its no coincidence that little being left of the pre-EA inhabitants, because they were pushed from North East Asia and largely replaced there. America was their safe haven, yet even there new groups followed, which evaded the next round of pushes from the EA centre, like the Proto-Inuit.

You can also see that Japan had a different habitat, being isolated from the core Eastern steppe zone, that's why there Ainu-like people lived, which didn't develop the same EA package. It came all from the Eastern core steppe zone. Must have been very hard to survive there and people lived for long times close together in safe places like tents and caves. Individuals which wouldn't fit into this close knit communities would have been shunned, which was especially under these circumstances like an immediate death sentence. This kind of evolution was very helpful to pick up the Neolithic package later and move on from there. That's probably a major reason for East Asians being so successful with adopting the Neolithic package with little replacement by incoming culture bearers, unlike elsewhere. They did a lot of the adaptation, in some respects even more than that, before and soon after the Ice Age, even the numbers of the foragers would have multiplied many times in the Huang He region.
Because they were so successful in adopting to the new Neolithic lifestyle, their ways and ancestral component was expanding far beyond their original homebase and replacing large parts of the older human populations down to South East Asia. This was even easier to achieve because the Huang He is one of the primary human habitats and population centres of mankind. With the early and successful adaptation of the Neolithic package and such a huge, extremely favourable habitat and population centre, they could send one group after another South.

BananaPhoneica
12-07-2020, 06:01 PM
41599

I think I got a tiny one but I'm not sure

Riverman
12-07-2020, 06:07 PM
41599

I think I got a tiny one but I'm not sure

Only slightly but clearly so going after this image alone. Do you have other people with eye folds in the family? Stronger/weaker?

ybmpark
12-07-2020, 06:16 PM
Nordic fold. A very basic anthropological term.

cvolt
12-07-2020, 06:29 PM
My dad has this northern eye fold thing, probably from our Swedish I guess.

BananaPhoneica
12-08-2020, 01:27 PM
Only slightly but clearly so going after this image alone. Do you have other people with eye folds in the family? Stronger/weaker?

I know my grandpa had some eyelid shabang, but it more of the nordic fold one, my mum has the same as my grandpa but I can't find anyone with the same eyefolds as me. I don't know any of my maternal great grandparents so I don't know if it's from them but I know we got some tatar so, maybe? But I think it could be just me being underdeveloped as a baby or something.

Riverman
12-08-2020, 01:29 PM
I know my grandpa had some eyelid shabang, but it more of the nordic fold one, my mum has the same as my grandpa but I can't find anyone with the same eyefolds as me. I don't know any of my maternal great grandparents so I don't know if it's from them but I know we got some tatar so, maybe? But I think it could be just me being underdeveloped as a baby or something.

There are indeed more possibilities.

Mirix
12-09-2020, 07:42 PM
What i also noticed is that some Cushites like Somalis have Epicanthic fold , probably occurs in lower frequency than in Northern Europeans.

The former Puntland President Abdirahman Mohamud Farole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdirahman_Farole)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Abdirahman_Farole.jpg/330px-Abdirahman_Farole.jpg

Today its more prevelant amongst Khoisan and East Asians.

The San are a much smaller people, with lighter skin, more tightly curled hair and thicker layer of skin over the eyes - the so called epicanthic fold that also characterizes people from east Asia. It is this latter feature which has led some researchers to suggest that the epicanthic fold is an ancestral characteristic of our species, and was simply lost in western Eurasians and Bantu populations. The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Sus9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&dq=epicanthic+fold+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8w8mczMHtAhW7BxAIHSYnAr8Q6AEwAHoECAIQA g#v=onepage&q=epicanthic%20fold&f=false)

I think the oldest human populationSan people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people)lend evidence to how this trait is an ancient human ancestral trait that some groups simply retained. I think this is probably the best explanation. The evolutionary explanations for it don't add up.

The higher prevelance in Mongoloids/East Asians and Khoisans could be due to founder effect. @It fits with the explanation Riverman gave on the other page. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13729-Epicanthic-fold-in-North-Western-European&p=725886#post725886)

davit
12-10-2020, 04:26 PM
What i also noticed is that some Cushites like Somalis have Epicanthic fold , probably occurs in lower frequency than in Northern Europeans.

The former Puntland President Abdirahman Mohamud Farole (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdirahman_Farole)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Abdirahman_Farole.jpg/330px-Abdirahman_Farole.jpg

Today its more prevelant amongst Khoisan and East Asians.

The San are a much smaller people, with lighter skin, more tightly curled hair and thicker layer of skin over the eyes - the so called epicanthic fold that also characterizes people from east Asia. It is this latter feature which has led some researchers to suggest that the epicanthic fold is an ancestral characteristic of our species, and was simply lost in western Eurasians and Bantu populations. The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Sus9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&dq=epicanthic+fold+somali&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8w8mczMHtAhW7BxAIHSYnAr8Q6AEwAHoECAIQA g#v=onepage&q=epicanthic%20fold&f=false)

I think the oldest human populationSan people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people)lend evidence to how this trait is an ancient human ancestral trait that some groups simply retained. I think this is probably the best explanation. The evolutionary explanations for it don't add up.

The higher prevelance in Mongoloids/East Asians and Khoisans could be due to founder effect. @It fits with the explanation Riverman gave on the other page. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13729-Epicanthic-fold-in-North-Western-European&p=725886#post725886)


Possible. What do you think of hooded eyes? To me that seems like a result of having prominent brow ridges common among most hunter gatherers.

But also in Northern Europeans couldn't it could be a result of EDAR and actual East Eurasian admixture?

Mirix
12-18-2020, 05:59 AM
Possible. What do you think of hooded eyes? To me that seems like a result of having prominent brow ridges common among most hunter gatherers.

But also in Northern Europeans couldn't it could be a result of EDAR and actual East Eurasian admixture?

I am not really sure do you have any papers on it? Could very well be a carry on trait from ancient hunter gatherers. Perhaps the prominence of it has to do with test levels just like the prominence of brow ridges has to do with test levels. Modern Humans have lower test levels than our ancient human ancesters Did Lower Testosterone Make The Modern Man? (https://www.wunc.org/post/did-lower-testosterone-make-modern-man) and they had more prominent brow ridges.

Danna89
01-01-2021, 11:59 PM
Possible. What do you think of hooded eyes? To me that seems like a result of having prominent brow ridges common among most hunter gatherers.

But also in Northern Europeans couldn't it could be a result of EDAR and actual East Eurasian admixture?

I had never given it much thought but hooded eyes are so common all throughout Europe. I never had a name for it. I am Armenian and my dad's side have hooded eyes. My brother has the prominent bridge brow as well. It's found in countries where there are no East Eurasian admixtures. Many that do have hooded eyes can commonly have very prominent brow bridges, which I have never seen it in other parts of the world. It's very common in Northern and Western Europeans. It's very possible that hooded eyes, that come with prominent brow bridges, were passed on from ancient hunter gatherers. It's also found in the Middle East. They are just one of those ancient traits.

Paul333
02-14-2021, 05:18 PM
I have slightly hooded eyes, but I think slight hooded eyes are pretty common in North West Europe. I think its a protection from sunlight. The brighter the sunlight the more I frown thereby increasing my eye cover and protection. 43304

Paul333
02-14-2021, 05:20 PM
Double post

rikvdb
02-14-2021, 06:03 PM
I have slightly hooded eyes, but I think slight hooded eyes are pretty common in North West Europe. I think its a protection from sunlight. The brighter the sunlight the more I frown thereby increasing my eye cover and protection. 43304

But that's not really the subject here. It is rather about inner folds between the hood and the nose. That shouldn't be confused with it.

Paul333
02-14-2021, 07:27 PM
But that's not really the subject here. It is rather about inner folds between the hood and the nose. That shouldn't be confused with it.

Ok Sorry

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 06:18 AM
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-46.jpg
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-13.jpg
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-31.jpg

These have good examples of some eastern impact.

Riverman
03-10-2021, 09:12 AM
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-46.jpg
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-13.jpg
http://www.acchevalier.be/files/gimgs/12_16072015-prise-de-vue-sans-titre-2-31.jpg

These have good examples of some eastern impact.

Only the blond girl in the third picture possibly.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 12:28 PM
Only the blond girl in the third picture possibly.

That is the one with an actual fold. But the other people have an Asiatic impact as well. Just to show that it "floats around" in our genepool and nothing too surprising.

Finn
03-10-2021, 12:34 PM
That is the one with an actual fold. But the other people have an Asiatic impact as well. Just to show that it "floats around" in our genepool and nothing too surprising.

I don't know I see 'typical' Central-West Europeans ranging from West-Germany/South Dutch/Belgium/Northern France.....

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 12:46 PM
I don't know I see 'typical' Central-West Europeans ranging from West-Germany/South Dutch/Belgium/Northern France.....

Yes but they simply don't look "ancient European" overall. They look like a blend of several ancient populations (in fact most people do to a certain degree). Typical central Europeans have some central Asian admixture. Without it they all would have wide(r) eyes and different skull shapes.

Alain
03-10-2021, 01:05 PM
Yes but they simply don't look "ancient European" overall. They look like a blend of several ancient populations (in fact most people do to a certain degree). Typical central Europeans have some central Asian admixture. Without it they all would have wide(r) eyes and different skull shapes.

Central Asian rather marginal but Uralic influences are well conceivable due to the connections to Scandinavia and the Baltic States.

Riverman
03-10-2021, 01:13 PM
That is the one with an actual fold. But the other people have an Asiatic impact as well. Just to show that it "floats around" in our genepool and nothing too surprising.

Wasn't my impression. Not even a slight tendency to a real epicanthic fold in most of them.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 01:37 PM
Wasn't my impression. Not even a slight tendency to a real epicanthic fold in most of them.

Not even all Asians have this.
The point is that if this occurs here in the West its probably due some central Asiatic admixture.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 01:38 PM
Central Asian rather marginal but Uralic influences are well conceivable due to the connections to Scandinavia and the Baltic States.

In central Europe, it's probably more because of the Huns and Scynthians and what not...

Finn
03-10-2021, 01:54 PM
Yes but they simply don't look "ancient European" overall. They look like a blend of several ancient populations (in fact most people do to a certain degree). Typical central Europeans have some central Asian admixture. Without it they all would have wide(r) eyes and different skull shapes.

Can you be more specific we all are mixture of at least HG, EEF, Steppe....But I can't see an Asian touch, projection?

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:02 PM
Can you be more specific we all are mixture of at least HG, EEF, Steppe....But I can's see an Asian touch, projection?

You can't see east Asian indeed (although there are half east Asians that can pass for full Europeans), but that is because East Asians are part Australoid and Melanesian in varying degrees. That's why they have a flattened nose. Central Asians and SIberians have a different nose, with a defined bridge and not as flattened. The Steppe you are talking about is the Asiatic I am talking about. Central Asia is next to Europe, remember, And not West Asia.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGBUVOKJZBQ
You can pay attention to the white locals, and see they have such tendencies as well.

altvred
03-10-2021, 02:05 PM
In central Europe, it's probably more because of the Huns and Scynthians and what not...

We don't see any genetic evidence of the 'East-Asian'/'South-Siberian' admixture that would correspond to the Migration Period's nomadic movements in Central Europe. There is, on the other hand, undeniably a Uralic-type admixture in parts of Scandinavia.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:09 PM
We don't see any genetic evidence of the 'East-Asian'/'South-Siberian' admixture that would correspond to the Migration Period's nomadic movements in Central Europe. There is, on the other hand, undeniably a Uralic-type admixture in parts of Scandinavia.

It is central Asian, not east. And I don't see any other explanation for the appearance of such traits.
And I have heard of people having a central paternal lineage. Y DNA

Alain
03-10-2021, 02:10 PM
In central Europe, it's probably more because of the Huns and Scynthians and what not...

Some points in the autosomal in Central Eastern Europe IA Calculator 5-10% RUS_Sarmatian_ Urals but in my opinion these features are more of a holdover from Ural peoples or from CWC who had EHG shares and who in turn had ANE shares, and Northern Central Europe had more intensive contact through the Hanseatic League with the Baltic States and Scandinavia where Uralic input took place

altvred
03-10-2021, 02:13 PM
It is central Asian, not east. And I don't see any other explanation for the appearance of such traits.

That's just semantics. If the Huns or any other Nomadic group from Central Asia left any impact on the modern population of central Europe, we would see something in these people's genetics. But we don't; trying to prove that it happened using outdated pseudo-scientific skull-measuring bs from the 19th century disproven by modern genetics is laughable.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:15 PM
That's just semantics. If the Huns or any other Nomadic group from Central Asia left any impact on the modern population of central Europe, we would see something in these people's genetics. But we don't; trying to prove that it happened using outdated pseudo-scientific skull-measuring bs from the 19th century disproven by modern genetics is laughable.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/barbarian-huns-dna-germany-migration-antiquity-skull

Alain
03-10-2021, 02:20 PM
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/barbarian-huns-dna-germany-migration-antiquity-skull

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/asiatic-east-germanics.html?m=1

Please

Finn
03-10-2021, 02:20 PM
You can't see east Asian indeed (although there are half east Asians that can pass for full Europeans), but that is because East Asians are part Australoid and Melanesian in varying degrees. That's why they have a flattened nose. Central Asians and SIberians have a different nose, with a defined bridge and not as flattened. The Steppe you are talking about is the Asiatic I am talking about. Central Asia is next to Europe, remember, And not West Asia.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGBUVOKJZBQ
You can pay attention to the white locals, and see they have such tendencies as well.

The people I can see are pretty standard Central-West European not specific Steppe or whatsoever. There are no indices that Vlaanderen for examples has a higher Steppe input or whatsoever.

altvred
03-10-2021, 02:23 PM
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/barbarian-huns-dna-germany-migration-antiquity-skull



The majority matched up with southeastern Europeans like Romanians and Bulgarians, and one even had East Asian ancestors.


From the article itself, the "Hunnic" brides were most likely culturally (partially?) Hunnicized Balkan natives... No mass scale study so far produced any evidence of Hunnic/Central-Asian/Turkic/Scytho-Sarmatian/etc DNA in central Europeans.

davit
03-10-2021, 02:23 PM
You can't see east Asian indeed (although there are half east Asians that can pass for full Europeans), but that is because East Asians are part Australoid and Melanesian in varying degrees. That's why they have a flattened nose. Central Asians and SIberians have a different nose, with a defined bridge and not as flattened. The Steppe you are talking about is the Asiatic I am talking about. Central Asia is next to Europe, remember, And not West Asia.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGBUVOKJZBQ
You can pay attention to the white locals, and see they have such tendencies as well.

There are close to no half East Asians who pass for Europeans.

davit
03-10-2021, 02:25 PM
It is central Asian, not east. And I don't see any other explanation for the appearance of such traits.
And I have heard of people having a central paternal lineage. Y DNA

Which ydnas?

ADW_1981
03-10-2021, 02:25 PM
The blonde girl with her sister in the wheelchair look like some Dutch or Scandinavians I've seen. I think this is Uralic influence rather than east Asian. We have a hockey player here in Canada who looks similar, Eric Staal. I swear the guy on the couch isn't related.

davit
03-10-2021, 02:27 PM
The blonde girl with her sister in the wheelchair look like some Dutch or Scandinavians I've seen. I think this is Uralic influence rather than east Asian. We have a hockey player here in Canada who looks similar, Eric Staal. I swear the guy on the couch isn't related.

Never realized that. Figured he looked like Marc or Jordan. But he looks very different in the eye area.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:28 PM
There are close to no half East Asians who pass for Europeans.

Yes there are. Vice versa as well.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:29 PM
Which ydnas?

C, G1, Q

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:30 PM
From the article itself, the "Hunnic" brides were most likely culturally (partially?) Hunnicized Balkan natives... No mass scale study so far produced any evidence of Hunnic/Central-Asian/Turkic/Scytho-Sarmatian/etc DNA in central Europeans.

So no disprove either.
Why else would people have such eyes; and others not? It must come from a certain admixture.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:31 PM
The people I can see are pretty standard Central-West European not specific Steppe or whatsoever. There are no indices that Vlaanderen for examples has a higher Steppe input or whatsoever.

Certainly more than the Netherlands (as a whole).

davit
03-10-2021, 02:42 PM
C, G1, Q

And you have verified they belong to Central Asian and not West Asian or European subclades of those lineages?

davit
03-10-2021, 02:42 PM
Yes there are. Vice versa as well.

Like?

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:44 PM
And you have verified they belong to Central Asian and not West Asian or European subclades of those lineages?

Central Asia is next to the black sea.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:49 PM
Like?

https://assets.forwardcdn.com/images/cropped/blog-kimchi-053111-1425667162.jpg

Alain
03-10-2021, 02:51 PM
Wrong, The Black Sea and its territory is Eastern Europe, bordering western Asia with the Caspian Sea and on the other hand is Turkey (Pontus)

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:51 PM
double post

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 02:54 PM
Wrong, The Black Sea and its territory is Eastern Europe, bordering western Asia with the Caspian Sea and on the other hand is Turkey (Pontus)

Central Asia is still next to Europe.
The migrationts were around the Danube, I think.

altvred
03-10-2021, 02:58 PM
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/asiatic-east-germanics.html?m=1

Please

Interesting read. It does seem that the East Germanics, who had the most interactions with Sarmatians and other steppe people, possibly had some Eastern component from those interactions. But judging from what Davidski posted on his blog, the East Germanics weren't only linguistic dead-ends but also biological ones, in the sense that they didn't have much of an impact on modern populations.


C, G1, Q

Haplogroup G spread into Europe in the Neolithic with farming, the subclade of haplogroup Q found in Northern Europe (https://yfull.com/live/tree/Q-L804/) predates the Hunns by thousands of years. Haplogroup C (https://yfull.com/live/tree/C-Y11591/)was present in Europe since the Upper Paleolithic.

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 03:01 PM
Interesting read. It does seem that the East Germanics, who had the most interactions with Sarmatians and other steppe people, possibly had some Eastern component from those interactions. But judging from what Davidski posted on his blog, the East Germanics weren't only linguistic dead-ends but also biological ones, in the sense that they didn't have much of an impact on modern populations.



Haplogroup G spread into Europe in the Neolithic with farming, the subclade of haplogroup Q found in Northern Europe (https://yfull.com/live/tree/Q-L804/) predates the Hunns by thousands of years. Haplogroup C (https://yfull.com/live/tree/C-Y11591/)was present in Europe since the Upper Paleolithic.

Those people who told me who have the haplogroups it is from Central Asians.

Current East Germans may not be the same as East GermanIC people in the past.

Alain
03-10-2021, 03:03 PM
Central Asia is still next to Europe.
The migrationts were around the Danube, I think.

OK, if you include Kazakhstan, I agree

Alain
03-10-2021, 03:05 PM
Interesting read. It does seem that the East Germanics, who had the most interactions with Sarmatians and other steppe people, possibly had some Eastern component from those interactions. But judging from what Davidski posted on his blog, the East Germanics weren't only linguistic dead-ends but also biological ones, in the sense that they didn't have much of an impact on modern populations.



Haplogroup G spread into Europe in the Neolithic with farming, the subclade of haplogroup Q found in Northern Europe (https://yfull.com/live/tree/Q-L804/) predates the Hunns by thousands of years. Haplogroup C (https://yfull.com/live/tree/C-Y11591/)was present in Europe since the Upper Paleolithic.

If you are interested you can use the G25 IA Calculator, some people in Central Eastern Europe, for example, RUS_Sarmatian_Urals between 5-10%

Finn
03-10-2021, 06:48 PM
Certainly more than the Netherlands (as a whole).

Nope:
43787

More southwards is more especially more EEF

rikvdb
03-10-2021, 06:52 PM
Nope:
43787

More southwards is more especially more EEF

Then why do they appear more like people from the Steppe in physical traits than the Dutch? From another central Asian population?

Finn
03-10-2021, 07:31 PM
Then why do they appear more like people from the Steppe in physical traits than the Dutch? From another central Asian population?

I don't know if that is the case, I can't see these supposed 'Steppe' or 'Asian' (dixit rik). Some look like Dutch, but on average the phenotypes are somewhat darker than for example among the North Dutch (on average). That's all.

The EEF difference is significant! But genotype doesn't equal phenotype exactly. We all are mixes.

rikvdb
03-11-2021, 02:15 AM
I don't know if that is the case, I can't see these supposed 'Steppe' or 'Asian' (dixit rik). Some look like Dutch, but on average the phenotypes are somewhat darker than for example among the North Dutch (on average). That's all.

The EEF difference is significant! But genotype doesn't equal phenotype exactly. We all are mixes.

It is quite obvious Dutch people have more ancient European traits, such as wider and larger eyes, different leg-torso ratio (those in the north especially), larger teeth, lower cephalic index (Dutch people have more rounded back of the skull), are taller, etc...

Finn
03-11-2021, 08:26 AM
It is quite obvious Dutch people have more ancient European traits, such as wider and larger eyes, different leg-torso ratio (those in the north especially), larger teeth, lower cephalic index (Dutch people have more rounded back of the skull), are taller, etc...

What is ancient?

Lighter, taller features are more recent than ancient.

rikvdb
03-11-2021, 08:33 AM
What is ancient?

Lighter, taller features are more recent than ancient.

From before admixture, that is what I meant with ancient.

Lighter and taller comes from the ancient Frisians and Jutes in the Netherlands, maybe there was some natural selection, but it's not like it comes from nowhere.

Finn
03-11-2021, 08:41 AM
From before admixture, that is what I meant with ancient.

Lighter and taller comes from the ancient Frisians and Jutes in the Netherlands, maybe there was some natural selection, but it's not like it comes from nowhere.

Yes indeed sexual selection, in the beginning of the Bronze Age this was, just like with lactose tolerance, still not the case. Single Grave people were large but pretty darkish (but most carried also genes for lighter features). It's more an iron age and after phenomenon, nothing to do with 'ancient' on the contrary....

VladimirTaraskin
03-11-2021, 10:42 AM
I became skeptical about phenotyping after I learned my buddy's Y-DNA. He knew roughly that one of his distant male ancestors was from the Tatars. However, genetics showed the following: Y-DNA-O2a-IMS-JST002611; mtDNA - J1c2f. Thus, several generations of living in a different autosomal environment and the phenotype completely loses its connection with the "standard" phenotype inherent in a certain Y-DNA subclades.

rikvdb
03-12-2021, 10:31 AM
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75380195_2403268446613023_1247929763197091840_o.jp g?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=09cbfe&_nc_ohc=a-WNQYlvnjUAX-p-wVY&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&oh=fa674c6b8bb1c48dba4056d966b9e3a8&oe=6070F76D
Another local example. I hope the link works.

Finn
03-12-2021, 02:42 PM
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75380195_2403268446613023_1247929763197091840_o.jp g?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=09cbfe&_nc_ohc=a-WNQYlvnjUAX-p-wVY&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&oh=fa674c6b8bb1c48dba4056d966b9e3a8&oe=6070F76D
Another local example. I hope the link works.

Yes a flat nose, sometimes connected with HG.
But remember genototype is not phenotype. So in the mix there are elements that pop up like in for example ancient times, but nevertheless what does this say...? I agree with Vladimir on this point, to take myself as an example I'm E-V22, the earliest examples of E-V22 lived along the Nile, but I guess that I don't resemble those guys in phenotype, nevertheless the same Y-DNA.....

Olymp
03-13-2021, 03:02 AM
What is ancient?

Lighter, taller features are more recent than ancient.

All Yamnayas, Neolithic Europeans and WHGs at the time had more or less the same pigmentation, except for the color of the eyes, but even the Yamnayas were predominantly "brunettes" with "brown" eyes.

West Europeans are a mix of three populations with some blond but not a majority of blond and blue eyes.

Then you have the pressure selection.

But there are so many parameters to consider for pigmentation that it's impossible to say that such a thing comes from "EEF" or "WHG" or "Yamnaya", it could just be the result of selective pressure.

moesan
03-15-2021, 08:51 PM
Not too evident pics, too far, too little for my eyes. That said, let's not confuse an heavy and fat superior eyelid with typical epicanthic fold which covers the internal angle of the eyes. There is not an unique model of eyelids form associated with this epicanthic folds.

rikvdb
03-16-2021, 03:04 PM
Not too evident pics, too far, too little for my eyes. That said, let's not confuse an heavy and fat superior eyelid with typical epicanthic fold which covers the internal angle of the eyes. There is not an unique model of eyelids form associated with this epicanthic folds.

I am certainly not confusing them at all. I think I gave pretty good examples.

rikvdb
03-16-2021, 03:44 PM
double post

moesan
03-20-2021, 09:05 AM
I am certainly not confusing them at all. I think I gave pretty good examples.

Sorry, but on these pics my eyes didn't catch the details. So... My answer was not specifically adressed to you but was on the general plan.

lana6765
04-04-2021, 10:26 AM
I think I have little baby ones, if you mean inner eye folds and not outer.

44147

According to a makeup artist, my outer eyes are free. :D

As to whether it’s caused by Asian or Siberian migrations into Europe, I’ll leave that for you to decide. I get 0 Asian in commercial tests, but some teeny Siberian in non commercial which is barely distinguishable from noise. My opinion is that there’s an element of randomness to this. Perhaps it’s caused by genes that have been carried down in my family by chance.

Target: Lana_scaled
Distance: 1.9733% / 0.01973304
77.8 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
11.4 NORDIC
5.4 ILLYRIAN
2.8 EURASIAN-ARCTIC
2.6 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST

Has anyone managed to find out which gene or genes cause them and if it’s the same genes in Europeans and Asians? Otherwise it might be cause by separate mutations. If that’s the case then it would be unrelated.

lana6765
04-04-2021, 11:02 AM
An important distinction is that hooded eyes oftentimes only appear in later in life and are a sign of "age and wisdom", whereas the exact opposite is true for the epicanthic fold, which can decrease with age. So the smooth epicanthic fold, and this is important for the aspect of sexual selection, is a sign of youth.

I think there’s a type of hooded eyes that are genetic as well. And I don’t think they’re necessarily unattractive. Emma Stone and Blake Lively don’t exactly look old and wizened! Some people in my family have had hooded eyes, not epicanthal folds, since they were children. While a couple more have mini eye folds like me.

Definitely think there’s something genetic and heritable going on in the Lana clan!

davit
04-04-2021, 12:47 PM
I think I have little baby ones, if you mean inner eye folds and not outer.

44147

According to a makeup artist, my outer eyes are free. :D

As to whether it’s caused by Asian or Siberian migrations into Europe, I’ll leave that for you to decide. I get 0 Asian in commercial tests, but some teeny Siberian in non commercial which is barely distinguishable from noise. My opinion is that there’s an element of randomness to this. Perhaps it’s caused by genes that have been carried down in my family by chance.

Target: Lana_scaled
Distance: 1.9733% / 0.01973304
77.8 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
11.4 NORDIC
5.4 ILLYRIAN
2.8 EURASIAN-ARCTIC
2.6 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST

Has anyone managed to find out which gene or genes cause them and if it’s the same genes in Europeans and Asians? Otherwise it might be cause by separate mutations. If that’s the case then it would be unrelated.

All those components have some sort of ANE so probably some East Asian mix.

Riverman
04-04-2021, 07:39 PM
I think there’s a type of hooded eyes that are genetic as well. And I don’t think they’re necessarily unattractive. Emma Stone and Blake Lively don’t exactly look old and wizened! Some people in my family have had hooded eyes, not epicanthal folds, since they were children. While a couple more have mini eye folds like me.

Definitely think there’s something genetic and heritable going on in the Lana clan!

You are right, but like yours, those eyes are more "transitional" to the East Asian forms probably than the usual "old wise people's" hooded eyes, which are decisively more at the outer angle than the inner one and don't form a real fold at all, but are rather just "hanging" visibly. I don't think they need to have the same genetic architecture behind it, it could be individual variation and a lot of randomness involved, just like you suggested. I also don't think its a single gene, because the variation in various people having eye folds is huge. This means many more allels need to be involved than a single SNP, though there might be some highly influential ones. I think I remember a study on that, but can't recall its title ad hoc.

lana6765
04-05-2021, 08:46 AM
All those components have some sort of ANE so probably some East Asian mix.

It’s very difficult to pin down exactly what it is, and like I said no commercial test has given me anything. FTDNA did give me Slavic and Finnish as well as ‘Greece and Balkans’, but I’m not sure of the accuracy.

My matches from Finland are from the south, but some score ‘Japanese’. I also had a match from the Ukraine who scored some Siberian. If the matches and minor admixture are connected then perhaps we share an ancestor from the area of Northern and Eastern Europe.

But it could just be a coincidence. Like I said, it’s super tiny and barely distinguishable from noise. Some other British and Irish people on here have gotten a bit of ‘Siberian’ or ‘Native American’ as well. It may have something to do with the more ancient origins of Northern Europeans in general.

lana6765
04-17-2021, 09:13 AM
It definitely contributes:


But its more complicated:



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23793515/

https://www.picb.ac.cn/picb-dynamic/admin/pic/Human%20Genetics-WSJ.pdf

I don’t have EDAR for sure.

Would be interesting if it could be found out which other SNPs can contribute and whether it’s the same ones worldwide.

I had a couple of other SNPs identified on YourDnaPortal as Asian or Native American:

rs1400411AG
rs80269044CC

But these might be unrelated. Both seem to occur in higher frequencies in Siberians as well, though a few Europeans seem to get rs80269044-C.

Or maybe it’s something that’s caused by unknown SNPs. I don’t have my whole genome sequenced and the SNPs involved may not be a part of these lists.