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View Full Version : DF13* 9919 Variety (L21>DF13* 459=9,9 YCAII=19,19)



MJost
09-25-2013, 08:43 PM
One of the oldest DF13* set of haploytpes appears to be the Variety cluster known as 9919.
which was classified as such by MikeW. This modal appears to be around 1.8K BC, a little
older than Z253 and DF21. The 9919 variety has a strong Ireland and Scotland initial presence.

9919 All
N=74 9.63 / 3,050.71 = Var/Coal. Ybp Age
Modal Ybp = 3,801.36

Ire and Sco n=28 10.05 / 3,182.75
Ire n=13 9.83 / 3,115.31
Sco n=15 8.89 / 2,815.82
Eng n=18 7.14 / 2,262.43
Wal n=3 5.56 / 1,759.89
Por n=4 2.13 / 673.16

z9919-A All n=16 8.04 / 2,546.61
Ire and Sco z9919-A N=6 6.33 / 2,006.27
ENG z9919-A N=6 5.56 / 1,759.89
Ire z9919-A N=4 5.06 / 1,603.70
Sco z9919-A N=2 3.75 / 1,187.92


z9919-A1 all n=9 3.19 / 1,009.00
Ire and Sco z9919-A1 n=9 3.19 / 1,009.00
Ire z9919-A1 n=6 3.56 / 1,126.33
Sco z9919-A1 n=3 1.56 / 492.77

9919-A2 All n=6 1.97 / 624.76
9919-A3 to A9 & Sp n=31 7.12 / 2,256.69
z9919-A-SP n=5 2.00 / 633.56
9919-A9 n=6 3.69 / 1,170.33
9919-A8 n=2 1.50 / 475.17


z9919-B All n=11 1.24 / 392.70

Ire and Sco z9919-B n=9 1.26 / 398.91
Ire z9919-B n=2 1.00 / 316.78
Sco z9919-B n=7 1.10 / 349.10

MJost

George Chandler
09-27-2013, 03:44 AM
Thanks for updating the numbers Mark.

MJost
09-27-2013, 05:19 AM
Your sure welcome.

The 9919 cluster maybe a huge key to where DF13 was most probably spawned. When I saw these numbers I said, 'Da...' these are hard numbers of a solid Isle cluster with a MRCA close in age to DF13 and L21, which are very close together. I just dont see any contiental nodes this old. And when you look at the two next oldest subclades DF21 and Z253's it the same picture and not just a fluke as also being staged on the Western Isles and running in different tracks. Contiental testing must be increased to prove or disprove that the Isles were the starting block.

What was the money maker at this time causing the expansion of this variety, which really needs a SNP found?

MJost

George Chandler
09-28-2013, 07:59 PM
It's really difficult to say where this family group is from. If I had to put money down right now I would say inside a trangle from Hanover down to Stuttgart and over to Paris with most moving into the western part of modern France and then into the Isles shortly after. The other possibility is that it originated in the isles and there was an early back migration to mainland Europe. What's interesting is that when you data mine the other project pages looking for some of the unique traits of the 9919 family you don't find much in terms of the pattern of unique slow moving marker values. The highest concentration of DF13 is in the Isles but also so is the testing. There are some within the 9919 family which have German or Saxon ancestry and a few with either Scandinavian names or ancestry. The question is "are the names and ancestries correct?" I keep trying to sift through information regarding my own line back to France but there are 3 different unrealted lines. It could be possible that one or even none of these lines are the genetic line that came from Normandy. When you start digging into other peoples genealogy from the 9919 family you have to think..are these intact lines or recently broken genetically? I still have alot of questions with few answers unfortunately. Realizing that the 9919 group has been evolving into L513 and DF41 etc for the past 4,000 years (+/-) you would think you would discover some of the odd unique pattern values within the national projects? The only other close R1b's who seem to have a value of 8 for DYS 643 are found under U106 and another under the Scotish project with the last name of Walace which leads me to believe it isn't ancestral. When you look at the values of the 9919 A-1 group it's pretty unique as well in terms of slow moving mutations. I know you're right that we won't begin to be solve this until some new SNP's are discovered within the family. The group reminds me of a population that was descimated and scattered early on as though we were refugee boat people from Santorini or something.

George

George Chandler
09-30-2013, 01:44 AM
I ordered the Full Y Genome test so hopefully that will provide some answers for the 9919 group. Hopefully a few others from the group will eventually order as well. What's interesting (as I mentioned above) is there seems to be more unique slow moving marker characteristics found within U106 than in P312 (at least for mine anyway). It's going to be interesting to see if these mutations are ancestral or something more recent. I couldn't resist..I need to know.

George

MJost
09-30-2013, 01:47 PM
George,

Hey is your kit number 11143? For my records of those L21's testing the Full Y.

Also, you may have seen my posting of DF13* varieties, includes 9919, where I ran TMRCAs of these and Geography location numbers almost a year ago. It still would be valid info.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbXFHNDJ0ZmhlUm8/edit?usp=drive_web

George Chandler
09-30-2013, 05:23 PM
That's correct - my kit is 11143. Thanks for the link Mark.
George

MJost
09-30-2013, 06:21 PM
George, I am very happy we have another 9919 variety which is in the DF13* Club.

DF13* MJost (148326) z1130-A1-A, DF13* Edgecombe, (186947) z9914-E, DF13* Smith (N55408) z141121 and DF13 Chandler (11143) z9919-A

These four kits have a 3,405 ybp Intraclade Founder's Modal Age but a coaleascence age around 2,593. A larger bottle neck situation maybe. It will be very interesting to see if 9919s begot any known or new DF13 subclade and or a new branch.

Using test SNPs and 111markers L21 has a TMRCA of 3,862 with n=1443 Hts, DF13 N=1074 is about 3,479 ybp where they both are not many generations apart, about 13, using 30 years per generation.

MJost

MJost
10-04-2013, 03:07 PM
That's correct - my kit is 11143. Thanks for the link Mark.
George

George,

I ran a DF13* variety Fluxus last year and I have pulled the section you are in showing your branch if you are interested. This major branch has some z142021's and -SP's in it.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNcTlKQ3F0QXktYk0/edit?usp=sharing

MJost

George Chandler
10-04-2013, 07:45 PM
Thanks for doing that Mark as it looks really interesting - I'll take a close look tonight.

I was trying to do an age estimate for someone in the 9919 RecLOH project (kit#74820) in comparison to mine (or the Chandler Group) and I've been having computer glitches. Any chance you could run a quick comparison so I can forward that on to him?

Thanks
George

MJost
10-04-2013, 09:00 PM
Thanks for doing that Mark as it looks really interesting - I'll take a close look tonight.

I was trying to do an age estimate for someone in the 9919 RecLOH project (kit#74820) in comparison to mine (or the Chandler Group) and I've been having computer glitches. Any chance you could run a quick comparison so I can forward that on to him?

Thanks
George
With 111 markers compared both of you (74820 & 11143)have a GD of 42 from each other.


IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age (to MRCA)

MeanGenerations___StdDevInGen___YBP___+OR-YBP
67.1____15.2___2,012.7___455.8

These eight Kits have the following TMRCA

f191679 Britton
f127795 Byrne
f96442 Byrne
f236890 Byrnes
f163674 Chandler
f145431 Kingston
f147359 Matheson
fN78334 zzzUnk(Schwartzman)


MeanGenerations___StdDevInGen___YBP___+OR-YBP
71.2___15.6___2,135.0___469.4

Adding Kit 74820 to the eight above:

MeanGenerations___StdDevInGen___YBP___+OR-YBP
83.5___16.9___2,503.9___508.4

MJost

George Chandler
10-04-2013, 11:00 PM
Thanks again Mark I'll pass the information on to him.

George

George Chandler
10-05-2013, 04:35 AM
The Fluxus pattern is more interesting than I expected (especially the 2 non 9919's close by). I keep wanting to group the A5's as an ancestral branch from about 1500 to 1800 years ago. I'm hoping we find the 9919B group fits in there with the 9919 SP as well. Once we start getting the FGS going it's going to be so much easier to see where everyone places.

George

ilmari
10-07-2013, 11:18 PM
I just ordered DF13 for 130937 Johan Johansson Arvela [Arfvela] b 1704, Pori, FIN

Does anyone know if 153101 has tested for it?

rms2
10-07-2013, 11:43 PM
I just ordered DF13 for 130937 Johan Johansson Arvela [Arfvela] b 1704, Pori, FIN

Does anyone know if 153101 has tested for it?

Yes, he is DF13+.

Barry R McCain
10-08-2013, 04:25 AM
The 9919 A-1 group has been researched for the last few year with success. It is linked to the a Ailean Mac EŠin Riabhach and his four sons, that lived in Kilmichael Glassary parish, mid Argyll. The is from Dunadd in the south to Loch Awe. 28 men are in the project now, but there is a good 50 more that match the 9919 A-1 group. They are in the individual family projects of the 28 men in the Mid Argyll Kinship Group Project, i.e. the 9919 A-1 kinship group.

Link to the project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MidArgyllKinshipGroup/

I would appreciate any comments. I work with more recent data, circa mid AD 1400 to 1700s, I am just now researching the deeper ancestry of the 9919 A-1 group. One interesting fact about them, their distant matches, or recent ancestry, via FT, is off the scale for Wales. Suggest to me they might me Strathclyde Kingdom Cymry in origin. Circa AD 1050 there was an exodus of ruling lines, minor lords, etc., from Strathclyde when the Scottish crown took over leadership. Some of these families migrated to Wales others to points north of Strathclyde.

George Chandler
10-08-2013, 05:16 PM
Hi Barry,
I've been puzzled about their origins as well. I was discussing with Kyle MacLea regarding the A-1 type and interest in pooling resources to test a person using the FGS. He wasn't having much luck regarding interest. Given the number of people in A-1 it would be great if a fund was set up to do it. It would still have to be paid a single person using credit card or cheque to Full Genomes.

Thanks for the idea regarding the origins as it's something to look into.

George

N21163
10-09-2013, 10:20 PM
I'm trying to determine if I belong to any subclade under DF13...I have tested to 67 markers through FTDNA but have tested negative to a number of SNPs.

Would it be possible for you to check if I belong to the DF13* 9919 variety?

George Chandler
10-09-2013, 10:33 PM
Is there a FTDNA project name you are listed under with kit number? If you take a look at your marker values you can probably check for yourself. Most of the DF13* 9919 variety have a 9-9 for DYS 458 a&b and values of 19-19 for YCAII. Most also have a value of 12 for DYS 640 as well but some don't. If you think you have these you can joing the 9919 RecLOH project at FTDNA and we'll try and figure out how to place you.

George

N21163
10-09-2013, 10:44 PM
Hi George,

Thanks for the advice - I wasn't able to find the 9919 RecLOH project on FTDNA....

My kit number is N21163 and I'm in the R-L21 WTY Project (amongst others) http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RL21WTY2009/default.aspx?section=yresults

My values for the alleles you listed are as follows:

DYS458(a&b): 9-10
YCAII: 19-23
DYS640: 11

Doesn't look like I will fit into this group either...

George Chandler
10-09-2013, 10:51 PM
It looks like you are DF13* (nothing identified below it) in the z1014-e type. Some of the people in the DF13 type have tested most main SNP's below DF13 and are negative. Most (if not all) seem to be from Scotland. You can keep testing those SNP's but I'm thinking there is a low probability you will test positive for any of them. Once the FGS results start coming you that might help your search a bit.

George

N21163
10-09-2013, 11:36 PM
It looks like you are DF13* (nothing identified below it) in the z1014-e type. Some of the people in the DF13 type have tested most main SNP's below DF13 and are negative. Most (if not all) seem to be from Scotland. You can keep testing those SNP's but I'm thinking there is a low probability you will test positive for any of them. Once the FGS results start coming you that might help your search a bit.

George

Thanks for your help George!!

George Chandler
10-10-2013, 02:12 AM
You're welcome

kmaclea
11-08-2013, 05:14 PM
9919-A1 here. Just joined the Forum and looking forward to chatting about the 9919s and recLOHs in general, all the more!

Kyle (ysearch WZCV3, R-DF13*, 9919-A1)

PS George, Erik, and I have raised $700 for FGS of the 9919-A1 as well... additional contributors welcome!

George Chandler
11-08-2013, 10:45 PM
Hi Kyle,
Welcome to the site! Not too many 9919 people here I don't think, but a lot of interesting information and discussions. Hopefully we'll be able to raise enough for your test. Anymore interest from your group members? I noticed a bunch more joined the 9919 RecLOH Project Group which is really good.

George

kmaclea
11-09-2013, 10:26 PM
Hi George

Barry McCain and i have discussed an appeal to members, but I have yet to actually send it due to some other stuff on my plate. But I'll get to it soon. Hope I do have some interest!

Kyle

Timothy
11-17-2013, 01:24 AM
Glad to see this forum! And, very happy to see a few in the group are doing the Full Y, esp McCeney!

My step-son, Cloutier by name but a Watrous by ancestry, and that name derived from the ancestral Waterhouse. He's kit 167191, with 111 markers, his closest matches are McCeney and Collier, but a huge mass of Whittakers (with various spellings) are close in the running, causing me to think there was an NPE event in Yorkshire some time around the 1400's possibly. His Watrous/Waterhouse clan do not match a different branch of Waterhouse, but from what I've read, both the Waterhouse and Whittaker founders were Normans awarded lands after the invasion.

George Chandler
11-17-2013, 06:44 PM
Hi Timothy,
Hopefully next year we will have a better idea of some of the SNP's downstream of DF13 for the 9919 Family. Glad to see your step son has joined the 9919 RecLOH group. It's difficult to say if it's a NPE or just different lines using different surnames. When you do a comparison to determine the aproximate MRCA for the 9919-A5 type it does seem to be fairly rescent.

Thanks
George

Timothy
11-18-2013, 07:20 AM
Glad to see your step son has joined the 9919 RecLOH group.

I had a hard time finding the 9919 RecLOH group! Finally had to resort to a search engine site check. I also added 151119, not 9919, but a recLOH, called the Galway (Ireland) haplotype. If you don't want him, it's okay.

Rory Cain
03-18-2014, 12:49 AM
9919-A1 here. Just joined the Forum and looking forward to chatting about the 9919s and recLOHs in general, all the more!

Kyle (ysearch WZCV3, R-DF13*, 9919-A1)

PS George, Erik, and I have raised $700 for FGS of the 9919-A1 as well... additional contributors welcome!

Hi Kyle

I saw your SNP results being discussed on another thread in anthrogenica. I'm wondering if those contributors were looking at the wrong SNP and if they should be looking at your Z2542+ which you share with at least two other 9919 ReCLOH project members in 115893 Blandford 179426 Davis?

Rory

George Chandler
03-18-2014, 04:30 PM
Hi Kyle

I saw your SNP results being discussed on another thread in anthrogenica. I'm wondering if those contributors were looking at the wrong SNP and if they should be looking at your Z2542+ which you share with at least two other 9919 ReCLOH project members in 115893 Blandford 179426 Davis?

Rory

Hi Rory,
Do you have a link to the discussion?

George

George Chandler
03-30-2014, 05:59 PM
Results from FGC for the 9919 A-5 and the Chandler 9919 A kits have been returned. The original FGC results show that we both test positive for S1051 which Alex had identified and mentioned in previous posts here. We also tested positive for 7 other unique SNP's and 8 more that had previously been identified yet most not common with the main SNP's below DF13 that I can tell. From Bill's 9919 A-5 there were 55 private high quality SNP's discovered (44@99% and 11@95%) and my 9919 A kit had 45 private high quality SNP's (39@99% and 6@95%). The results from both were sent to Thomas and Astrid at YSEQ to determine reliability and do another round of testing. From this YSEQ determined that there were 6 of the 8 shared SNP that were reliable for retesting. Of the 8 SNP's that had been previously discovered there were 2 which were reliable enough to retest. Of the 55 private 9919 A-5 SNP's there were 16 viable for verification and 6 others which may be difficult to sequence. From my kit there were 26 of the 45 which were viable for verification. Currently there are 34 new SNP's available for order through YSEQ from my private SNP's and 6 common and 2 previously identified 9919 SNP's. Another kit is testing who likely shares a MRCA with me between 800-1000 years ago so hopefully that will eliminate some Chandler specific SNP's. With the MacLea 9919 A-1 being tested with FGC currently we should have a good bundle by the end of the year for people to test for. I would suggest that anyone who is DF13* to test for S1051 especially if you are 9919 and if negative for S1051 to test for FGC5496. If anyone tests positive for S1051 please contact me and I'll give you any advise of further testing. It was interesting to locate a unreliable SNP in S552 which Thomas had ruled out. I tested positive for it and Bill tested negative yet both Z253 and L513 tested positive for S552 if I recall and tested negative for S1051 and the other unique SNP's (except Z2542 above DF13 and L459 below DF13). We are still waiting for actual results from testing to see if any suspected viable SNP's need to be dropped.

George

George Chandler
06-08-2014, 09:38 PM
1947

1948

1949

wolf6t4
06-27-2014, 02:29 AM
Hello, I am new to this forum and am searching for answers while trying to find my Wray heritage through the Project at Family Tree DNA and have found a very close relationship to the Dickenson's of North Carolina. Below are the numbers that came back on my 67 test that got me here to you all. The reason I started looking is that they don't seem to match but a few of the R - Group but quite a bit of the A's

DYS458: 9-9
YCAII: 19-19
DYS640: 12

I would like to submit my project to your group or any group here that can help
my kit number is 315484
I am listed as R1b - M269
But in all honesty I am such a novice at this that I really don't much about what any of it means I could probably give you the rest of the R1b sequence but am not sure how to get back to it at the moment.

My mother was a Belcher and we have traced with some confidence back to 1620's when both families first came over the pond.

My mtdna is K1a13
the mutations are listed as
HVR1 - T16093C, A16129G, T16187C, C16189T, T16223C, T16224C, G16230A, T16278C
HVR2 - C152T, C198T, A247G, C497T, 522.1A, 522.2C, 309.1C, 315.1C, 522.3A, 522.4C

from what I have read here and within other sites I am a 9919 what ever that means

I am not sure if any of the bit of family history makes or means anything but thought it might.

Again, thank you all in advance for your help

George Chandler
06-28-2014, 12:42 AM
Welcome to the forum! I would be glad to have join the project. If you log into your Family Tree DNA personal page then click on projects tab at the top, then click "join" you will see a list of different options and what you want is the "Y Haplogroup Projects" and within that list you see a 9 (1). You need to click on that then you will see the 9919 RecLOH group to click on as well which should give you the option of joining.

I can send you a private message on this forum or you can email me with what ever questions you have. There is quite a bit to go over if you're new to this.

Let me know and I'll be happy to help you out. You're in luck because one of the Dickerson's is testing Full Y so you should have some good information soon.

George Chandler

George Chandler
06-30-2014, 03:00 PM
To join the 9919 RecLOH Project just log into your FTDNA account and click on the "Projects" tab at the top then click "join". This will take you to the alphabet page and if you scroll down to the "Y Haoplogroup Projects" heading you will see right under it 9 (1). If you click on that you will see the 9919 RecLOH Project and if you click on that you should get the option to join.

George

wolf6t4
06-30-2014, 06:58 PM
thanks George I just clicked on join I do appreciate it. would like to know what SNP's I should have tested if you could help with that I would appreciated that as well

thanks agaian

jeff wray

George Chandler
07-01-2014, 04:19 AM
Hi Jeff,
I grouped you with the 9919 A4's but it's interesting yours is a bit different. What I would recommend doing is waiting for the 9919 A4 Full Y results expected back soon. I have your email and will let you know what to order when that comes in - that way you're not wasting money testing SNP's you'll be negative for.

Thanks for joining the group.
George

wolf6t4
07-01-2014, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the help here George will wait on you

George Chandler
07-23-2014, 07:09 PM
Interesting update on the latest round of FGC Silver Y results. The first being is that there is a genetic connection between the 9919B's and the 9919A4's which includes S1050. So far the 9919 A9 Rayborn is the only one who does not share all 5 main SNP's below DF13 (S1051, FGC9661, FGC9655, FGC9657 & FGC9658).

Another interesting fact is that of my 32 Sanger verified SNP's below DF13 only 2 of them happened within the past 377 years or 12 generations. Making that 189 years per verified SNP.

George

George Chandler
08-02-2014, 07:35 PM
Updated 9919 S1051 Tree

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E1iiiFeUgXGA-Trg_whSqbK_sTZI5csja4dRFWZ5-bE/pubhtml

George

George Chandler
08-02-2014, 07:45 PM
Some of the new SNP's listed above have not been Sanger verified yet although YSEQ was nice enough to cull the unstable ones and cross overs. The difficult but possible SNP's were also excluded. You can see the relationship between the 9919B and 9919A4's clearly (though we are still waiting for 9919B Elite results to come in) - they were the only ones previously who were testing positive for S1050. There are 2 SNP's identified which are common to both 9919A4 and the 9919SP lines but they were excluded on the initial cull by YSEQ. I've left them in there to keep an eye on them but shaded them in gray. It will be interesting to see if they show up in the 9919B results as they should. It was interesting because although there were a lot of SNP's located in the 9919A4's there were a lot which were also culled.

There are several other people testing the patriarch SNP's including the Cartier and St Jean kits who origins are supposed to be France. The Cantu/Pais testing has revealed that they are negative for S1051,FGC9661,FGC9655 & L513.

George

George Chandler
08-06-2014, 04:55 AM
Results are in for the 9919 A1 MacLea Elite Y test and it shows another line. It does have a single stable SNP which is below the main 5 and it's found in both 9919 A1 & 9919SP results.

Here is the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E1iiiFeUgXGA-Trg_whSqbK_sTZI5csja4dRFWZ5-bE/pubhtml

George

George Chandler
08-07-2014, 10:27 PM
Results for the following kits have all come back negative for S1051, FGC9661 & FGC9655:
f82681 St Jean - Nantes France
f82258 Cartier - Nantes/Brittany France
232163,f99240,f84728 Cantu/Pais family group

joeflood
09-19-2015, 01:11 AM
Hi One of my CORNWALL group just came up positive for S1051 (more than half of those tested on the R-Backbone are coming up with something unusual). Can you tell me more about it? Seems to be spread across Britain.

Joe Flood
Admin Cornwall
(prefer if you email me as coad at one-name.org as I don't come here regularly).