Origin and Distribution of L1c-M357

[Sapporo]

Can someone provide me more info on it? There is not much research available on it.

I am also curious if this map is accurate for its distribution?

http://gentis.ru/img/y/M357.gif

This is what the Russian website suggests about it:


Present with the highest frequencies in the Kalash in Pakistan - about 23%, at burushey - 12%, as well as Pashtuns - 7%. In India L1c occurs with a frequency of about 2.5% in the north of the country, and only 0.3% in the south. In this haplogroup is in the gene pool of the Caucasus from the Chechens at up to 14%, the Ingush - about 3%, and the Georgians - 1.5%. In the Middle East, found only in northern Iran at the rate of 3%.

Source:

http://gentis.ru/info/ydna-tutorial/hg-l/m357

I do know it's common enough in populations like the Kalash, Baloch, Pashtun (both Afghan and Pakistani) and Burusho

This spreadsheet is taken from Dienekes blog post on: A rare look at the Y chromosomes of Afghanistan

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uDDAlqJzhXI/T3NuJELm1tI/AAAAAAAAEts/g0s9-VfwAkw/s1600/Clipboard05.png

Source: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/rare-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html

Wikipedia states this on its distribution:


Found frequently among Burushos, Kalashas, Chechens and Pashtuns, with a moderate distribution among other populations in Pakistan, Georgia, northern Iran, India, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia.

On an interesting note, I'm sharing this haplogroup with 5 members of my ethnicity on 23andme.

[palamede]

I am looking at the Baloutch frequency(n=13) because I was surprised by the absency of R1, I see in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Baloch IE (Iranian, NW) n=25 R1b 8.0% R1a=28.0% E1b1b=8.0% J=16.0% L=24.0%
Brahui Dravidian (Northern) n=25 R1a=24.0% J=28.0% G=16.0% L=8.0%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

[Sapporo]

I am looking at the Baloutch frequency(n=13) because I was surprised by the absency of R1, I see in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Baloch IE (Iranian, NW) n=25 R1b 8.0% R1a=28.0% E1b1b=8.0% J=16.0% L=24.0%
Brahui Dravidian (Northern) n=25 R1a=24.0% J=28.0% G=16.0% L=8.0%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

Thanks palamede. I know that most Baloch with Y-DNA haplogroup L are L1c-M357 so I'm curious if I can hypothetically link to the component to the Gedrosia/Baloch component which peaks in them and the Brahui on Gedmatch calculators and thus link it to West Asian Neolithic farmers.

[BMG]

Hi Sapporo My maternal grandfathers line is L1c . L1c peaks in northwest of indian subcontinent . It is found in high frequencies among pashtuns and jatts . It seems this line has suffered bottlenecks and was less succesful in expanding out .

btw the baloch have more L1a than L1c .In the study mentioned by palamede baloch has L1a 5/25 and L1c 1/25

[Sapporo]

Hi Sapporo My maternal grandfathers line is L1c . L1c peaks in northwest of indian subcontinent . It is found in high frequencies among pashtuns and jatts . It seems this line has suffered bottlenecks and was less succesful in expanding out .

btw the baloch have more L1a than L1c .In the study mentioned by palamede baloch has L1a 5/25 and L1c 1/25



Hi BMG. My mistake. It seems you're right about the Baloch. Although, apparently it's found at high frequencies among the Chechens? I wonder how that's possible. Also, is L1a found deeper in the subcontinent as well? Also, I agree about the bottleneck. I'm sharing it with 5 members of my ethnoreligious group.

[BMG]

Hi BMG. My mistake. It seems you're right about the Baloch. Although, apparently it's found at high frequencies among the Chechens? I wonder how that's possible. Also, is L1a found deeper in the subcontinent as well? Also, I agree about the bottleneck. I'm sharing it with 5 members of my ethnoreligious group.

I looked into chechen project in ftdna .All but one L samples are L1c . They might have got there from north pakistan as there were so many mobile groups in central asia in historic times .
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/chechen-noahcho/default.aspx?section=yresults
I think haplogroup L split in the vicinity of balochistan into L1a and L1c . While L1a expanded south along southwestern coast of india(where it reaches around 15%) L1c got stuck between mountains and deserts .

[newtoboard]

The conventional view is that the Gedrosia component came from West Asia. But I wonder if it originated in NW South Asia or just outside of that region and can be associated with a local y-DNA K line (and possibly South Asian specific variants of mtdna U2) from which y-DNA L originated.

[BMG]

I too think the same .Though the Baloch/Gedrosia component is a west eurasian one it isnt necessarily a west asian one . Isnt it similar to ANI or at least a part of it ?
Also in harappa project the fst distances it is almost equidistant from Caucasian and NE Euro components .

[Sapporo]

Baloch/Gedrosia component exists in populations where y-dna L does not exist. So they cannot be connected.

The Baloch (one of the three populations Baloch/Gedrosia peaks in) have significant L1a so it's "plausible" they are connected in some manner. In the spreadsheet image I posted above, 61.54% of Baloch samples were L1a. Pashtuns have high levels of L1c-M357 and they also have high levels of the Gedrosia component.

L1c-M357 is also found in Chechens at a high rate who have 22% of the component. Anyways, it's just speculation.

[Sapporo]

How is it "plausible" though? Baloch/Gedrosia distribution is well beyond this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_L_Y-DNA.svg.png

The fact that the Gedrosia/Baloch component distribution extends into Iran, the Caucasus, Levant and even Europe matters little. My point is that L1c-M357 and related Y-DNA L subclades like L1a are found at high levels among populations which have 38%+ of the Gedrosia/Baloch component along with one of the three populations it peaks in.

Also, as BMG mentioned earlier, the clade L1c-M357 suffered bottlenecks and was not successful in expanding outwards of the Northwestern fringes of the subcontinent. Therefore, it could be limited to the few populations it peaks in and others who have substantial amounts of the component in the Northwestern corridor of South Asia. Although, it's found in very low frequencies in other parts of South Asia and to a lesser extent Middle East.

[Sapporo]

^ I don't get your point. Why does it matter if it's found in populations with high Gedrosia/Baloch component? Also, I don't consider 5-16% as "high".

If L1c-M357 and L1a are found in fairly high frequencies in populations with the highest amounts of Gedrosia/Baloch (Baloch and Northwestern South Asians), it's clearly "plausible" the two are interconnected in some manner. That's all I was suggesting. It matters little if it's not found in all populations that have the Gedrosia/Baloch component. What you consider high matters little. Frequencies of 10% or higher are often considered "high frequencies" for a population. Especially if the haplogroup subclade isn't common in the first place. Most populations aren't dominated by 50% or more of 1 haplogroup. Also, L1a was found in 61.54% of the Baloch samples in the picture I posted in the OP. That is extremely high.

Anyways, unless you have something to contribute with regards to L1c-M357 (its origin and distribution), this is a meaningless discussion due to its very hypothetical nature. Thanks.

[BMG]

Baloch/Gedrosia component exists in populations where y-dna L does not exist. So they cannot be connected.

We cannot completely link uniparental lineages to autosomal components as these components are not real and vary with source population used . They can only be used for comparative analysis . We just saw a correlation between the baloch component and ydna L as both peaks around the same area . Dont make a big deal about it

[parasar]

... L1c got stuck between mountains and deserts .

Regarding L1c-M357, please see the paper that I had posted the link for in another thread: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1188-Speculation-regarding-my-ancestral-origin-in-the-past-500-years&p=11568&viewfull=1#post11568

DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

Please note their DYS426 repeats. (rate of change 0.00009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Y-STR_markers)

For DYS426 comparison, this is from Haber:
DYS426 DYS388 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635

Pashtun Faryab L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 17 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Herat L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 18 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Balush Khost L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Helmand L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Tajik Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 14 29 22 15 17 9 18 17 16 10 20 11 10 14 12 12 23
Pashtun Wardak L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 15 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Laghman L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 15 10 21 11 10 14 12 12 23
Tajik Takhar L1c M357 11 12 14 30 22 15 16 10 17 18 16 11 19 12 10 16 11 12 22
Tajik Kunduz L1c M357 11 12 13 30 22 15 16 11 14 16 14 10 19 12 10 11 12 10 22
Hazara Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 16 15 9 16 16 16 11 19 11 10 14 12 12 23
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288.s003

[newtoboard]

Baloch/Gedrosia component exists in populations where y-dna L does not exist. So they cannot be connected.

Gedrosia could be related to more than one Y-DNA. Y-DNA T might explain its presence in West Asian populations since L and T are related.

[newtoboard]

Like I said, connecting haplogroups to components is psuedo-intellectual. However, if Gedrosia/Baloch were to be connected to a y-dna, it would be R1a1a.

The autosomal signature of the R1a in Central and South Asia is more likely to be the Northern European component.

[newtoboard]

Highly questionable. R1a1a is more common in the Iranian plateau than in northern India btw.

Link? R1a is more common in South Asia. It is absent in portions of the Iranian plateau.

[Sapporo]

R1a1a is one of the dominant haplogroups in Northern South Asia. It is also much more frequent in South Asia and South Central Asia than Iran.

See here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png

[BMG]

Not true. R1a1a and J2 are the two most common haplogroups in the Iranian plateau. In north India, L and H are dominant.
R1a1a is the most dominant haplogroup in north india . In many ethnic groups it is even over 50% .
and look at ftdna iranian dna project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iranian%20Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults
Only 6 out of 57 people are R1a there
Anyway i have a doubt that you are just an internet troll

[parasar]

The autosomal signature of the R1a in Central and South Asia is more likely to be the Northern European component.

Unless R1a1 in India is very old (over 12500 years), I too think the Northern European-R1a1 correlation is the most reasonable one.

[newtoboard]

Not true. R1a1a and J2 are the two most common haplogroups in the Iranian plateau. In north India, L and H are dominant.

How is L dominant in North India when the map that you posted in post #11 of this thread shows the exact opposite?

[newtoboard]

R1a1a is one of the dominant haplogroups in Northern South Asia. It is also much more frequent in South Asia and South Central Asia than Iran.

See here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png

Yea. He doesn't have anything to support his argument. I had no idea why he brought it up anyways. Even that West Asian peak of R1a is in Upper Mesopotamia and the Armenian highlands not the Iranian plateau.

[Dr_McNinja]

Any ideas yet about the possible origin of L1c-M357? I was struck by the frequency among Jatts and the Popalzai Pashtun (it appears the Sadozai progenitor, Sadu Khan of the 16th century, was likely L1c-M357). Can anyone estimate the MRCA between the two strains of L1c from the data in the FTDNA projects?

[newtoboard]

I wonder how L1c entered the Caucasus, Tarim, Russia, North Central Asia and Europe?

[Dr_McNinja]

Updated the spreadsheet with Alizai, Khattak, Khakwani individuals who are also L1c

[Dr_McNinja]

^ Correction, they're predicted L/L1c so I changed them to just "L" and added a few more Sadozai L individuals.

[Humanist]

Updated the spreadsheet with Alizai, Khattak, Khakwani individuals who are also L1c

Hi Dr_McNinja. What spreadsheet are you referring to?

[Dr_McNinja]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdG8yX1hkLXNVbFVsR1JuOURBdnpad EE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

[newtoboard]

What does everything about on the origin of L? I think L1a and L1c are local South and South-Central Asian clades. It makes sense to see L1b as the Western extension of L. I think there is a concentration of L2 in NE Europe so a Central Asian or South Central Asian origin for L might explain that.

[BMG]

The Geno 2.0 L-M357 results comes from varied backgrounds .So far five results out there
1-Syrian Christian from kerala
1-Maldivian
1-Hui Chinese
1-Vaishnav Brahmin from Karnataka
1-Chechen

[parasar]

Hi BMG. My mistake. It seems you're right about the Baloch. Although, apparently it's found at high frequencies among the Chechens? I wonder how that's possible. Also, is L1a found deeper in the subcontinent as well? Also, I agree about the bottleneck. I'm sharing it with 5 members of my ethnoreligious group.

There is a person on forumbiodiversity who claims to have some knowledge of how that happened. Apparently (it is very difficult to understand) a chief escaped India-Afghanistan area after his family and tribe were killed and came to Akka, Chechnya. According to this tale his brother was killed in Sikkim!

[Sapporo]

There is a person on forumbiodiversity who claims to have some knowledge of how that happened. Apparently (it is very difficult to understand) a chief escaped India-Afghanistan area after his family and tribe were killed and came to Akka, Chechnya. According to this tale his brother was killed in Sikkim!

Seems a bit far-fetched but you never know I suppose. It doesn't seem to be that common have a haplogroup and likely peaks in certain populations due to genetic drift.

[parasar]

Seems a bit far-fetched but you never know I suppose. It doesn't seem to be that common have a haplogroup and likely peaks in certain populations due to genetic drift.

Very true, but as the person mentioned that he was a teacher ("taught at the school 40 years ago, and spoke only Russian"), I thought perhaps he has some credibility, but it was really difficult to figure the translation!


Vokkkhala Pula. He ruled the country for a certain territory ( apparently part of their territories ), India, Afghanistan , China, Iran , Nepal , Bhutan, Sikkama . But there was a long war and rebellion. His brother was killed Sikkim , he took the family of the 13 names of those close to him , and the residue Guard army. Then he secret way to escape from the huge army and the rebels came to the Caucasus. Here he settled in the hill country Lam-Akkha/Lamahar (Mount Kazbek , Galanchozh ) and the plain where now the city of Stavropol, Hasan Yurt.


One thing is for sure though, the highly drifted Chechen M357 STR is very close to the northern South Asian one.

[Dr_McNinja]

Does anyone have heatmaps for L1c-M357 and other L subclades? Like the Geno 2.0 one or others?

[parasar]

Pashtun and other Central Asians (Kazakhs, Tajiks) seem to share 13,13 at DYS439,DYS389i while the Punjabis seem to be 12,13. The Chechens are mostly 11,13 which is interesting. What do you think?

Some have DYS439=12
L1c from Haber data:
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288.s003
DYS426 DYS388 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635


Pashtun Faryab L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 17 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Herat L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 18 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Balush Khost L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Helmand L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Tajik Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 14 29 22 15 17 9 18 17 16 10 20 11 10 14 12 12 23
Pashtun Wardak L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 15 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Laghman L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 15 10 21 11 10 14 12 12 23
Tajik Takhar L1c M357 11 12 14 30 22 15 16 10 17 18 16 11 19 12 10 16 11 12 22
Tajik Kunduz L1c M357 11 12 13 30 22 15 16 11 14 16 14 10 19 12 10 11 12 10 22
Hazara Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 16 15 9 16 16 16 11 19 11 10 14 12 12 23

Arunkumar's Tamil data has 11, 12 and 13:
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

The high diversity in the Tamil data is especially reflected in DYS426 10, 11, 12 and DYS390 22, 23.

[Dr_McNinja]

Some have DYS439=12
L1c from Haber data:
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288.s003
DYS426 DYS388 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635


Pashtun Faryab L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 17 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Herat L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 18 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Balush Khost L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Helmand L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Tajik Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 14 29 22 15 17 9 18 17 16 10 20 11 10 14 12 12 23
Pashtun Wardak L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 17 15 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21
Pashtun Laghman L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 15 15 9 16 18 15 10 21 11 10 14 12 12 23
Tajik Takhar L1c M357 11 12 14 30 22 15 16 10 17 18 16 11 19 12 10 16 11 12 22
Tajik Kunduz L1c M357 11 12 13 30 22 15 16 11 14 16 14 10 19 12 10 11 12 10 22
Hazara Ghazni L1c M357 11 12 13 29 22 16 15 9 16 16 16 11 19 11 10 14 12 12 23

Arunkumar's Tamil data has 11, 12 and 13:
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

The high diversity in the Tamil data is especially reflected in DYS426 10, 11, 12 and DYS390 22, 23.Do you think it's possible to estimate MRCA dates for the South Indian, NW Indian, and Afghan/Central Asian L1c branching off point?

[parasar]

Do you think it's possible to estimate MRCA dates for the South Indian, NW Indian, and Afghan/Central Asian L1c branching off point?

L age overall is the same as R or about 26000 years old (from Sardinian data).
The Kalash subset is very young. Overall L1c may be almost as close as L itself based on the STR types among the Tamils, but none of the Indian Tamils have been sampled for in depth SNP coverage.
The Indus populations and some others from South Asia have been and M357 among the latter was found to have 5 subgroups.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/13/000802.DC5/000802-3.pdf
L1c*
HG03790 ITU
L1c-M2398
...HG03821 BEB
......HG03695 STU
..........HG04094 ITU
..........HG03672 STU
..............HG03900 STU
..............HG03753 STU

Indus pg 19 "Our estimated age for haplogroup L is about 15 ky, slightly older than a previous estimate of 10 ky based on STR variation"
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2014/01/13/001792.DC1/001792-1.pdf
Even 15 ky is on the low side, the overall age is closer to 26 ky.

[Dr_McNinja]

I just shared with an Afghan from Panjsher province (I believe) who is L1 paternal and R0a2d maternal. 23andMe defines L1 by the SNPs M27 and M76. The other L1 individuals I was sharing with on 23andMe include a Punjabi Kamboj, Punjabi from Faisalabad, Punjabi Jatt Sikh (Dhesi), Fijian of Rajasthani/NW-Indian descent, and a Pakistani of unknown descent.

[Sapporo]

@Dr_McNinja

That individual you shared with is half Tajik and half Pashtun. He is Greendale from anthroscape. Nice guy.

[Dr_McNinja]

Which map would be a better fit for L1c, the one on page 1 of this thread or this Wikipedia one for L-M20?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

It looks like it'd fit for L1c specifically too.

[parasar]

Which map would be a better fit for L1c, the one on page 1 of this thread or this Wikipedia one for L-M20?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

It looks like it'd fit for L1c specifically too.

Especially if you do a dot map where a dot represents a certain number of people.

[Maxx]

Hi... I"m from Chechnya. We have found L1c 15% of ethnos. It"s very interessting where it came from.

Chechen Republic, Chermoy, Galay gar Russian Federation L-M357 ... 12 22 15 10 9-15 11 12 11 13 14 29
Republic Ingushetia, Orstkhoy, Dourbik nyaqan Russian Fe L-M357.... 12 22 15 10 9-16 11 12 11 13 14 30

[Maxx]

You can look at this page chechen and ingush subsclades:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nakhdna/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Maxx]

Chechens L3(M357) Y-37.

12 22 15 10 9-15 11 12 11 13 14 29 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 27 13-15-16-17 10 10 19-21 16 13 18 14 34-36 11 10
12 22 15 10 9-16 11 12 11 13 14 30 17 9-9 11 12 27 16 18 27 13-15-16-17 11 10 19-21 16 13 19 14 34-36 11 10
12 22 15 10 9-16 11 12 11 13 14 30 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 25 14-15-16-16 10 10 19-21 16 13 18 14 34-35 11 10
12 22 15 10 9-16 11 12 11 13 14 30 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 27 13-15-16-16 11 10 19-21 16 13 18 14 33-34 11 10
12 22 15 10 9-16 11 12 11 13 14 30 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 27 13-15-16-17 10 10 19-21 15 13 18 14 35-36 11 10
12 22 15 10 9-17 11 12 11 14 14 31 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 27 13-15-16-16 12 10 19-21 16 13 18 14 34-34 11 10
12 22 16 10 9-17 11 12 12 13 14 30 18 9-9 11 12 26 16 17 27 13-15-16-16 11 10 19-21 16 13 18 14 34-34 11 10
12 22 16 10 9-18 11 12 12 13 14 30

[Sapporo]

I just shared with a Chechen L3* on 23andMe. Seems to cluster in between far Eastern Europe and West Asia imo. He actually shows up in the middle of nowhere in the Eastern Europe global similarity. His mt-DNA is T2e, which he shares with a half South Asian (father) and half white American (mother) woman.

[Dr_McNinja]

The 25 marker results are back for HRP0370's brother and there's one match with 1 genetic distance, someone claiming descent from Abbas Quli Khan, son of Shah Wali Khan Bamezai, the Wazir/Vizier of Ahmad Shah Durrani. I know HRP0370's family have a bunch of Bamezai ancestors going back to that same Wazir. At a genetic distance of 2 are the Wazirzadas (Although listed as Sadozai, it could presumably be a surname also linked to the Bamezai, the Popalzai sub-tribe who had hereditary charge of the ministerial position for the Durrani regime) and a Mohammadzai (claiming descent from Sardar Mohammad Amin Khan, possibly the son of Dost Muhammad Khan Barakzai), but at different markers.

When the 37 marker tests are done we'll see if the distance increases. There's quite a lot of variation among all the Afghan Popalzai L1c-M357 so I don't know if we'll be able to distinguish particular sub-tribes or lineages with any great clarity.

The TiP report for 25 markers for the Barakzai:

Generations Percentage
4 7.85%
8 28.91%
12 51.97%
16 70.34%
20 82.81%
24 90.48%

For the Shah Wali Khan Bamezai descendant:

Generations Percentage
4 27.28%
8 57.84%
12 77.90%
16 89.07%
20 94.79%
24 97.58%

The progenitor of the Sadozai, Sado Khan, is named "Asadullah Saddu Khan Popalzai 1556-1627 Kandahar" in the FTDNA users' profiles.

Using ~27 years per generation, that's around 1366 for the MRCA of the Popalzai sub-tribes (actually between HRP0370's line and Bamezai, so this could just be the ancestor of the Bamezai, or a common Bamezai/Sadozai ancestor) and ~1150 for the MRCA of Barakzai and Popalzai L1c-M357 if we use 32 generations.

Simranjit Singh Sandhu (who some of us share with on 23andMe) shows up with a genetic distance of 9 on YSearch. There's an Arab with a genetic distance of 4 claiming a paternal ancestor (presumably Arab) named Rashid Ahmad in the 9th century.

The Ysearch results: http://i.imgur.com/YLWa2TP.png

[Sapporo]

I just shared with a Chechen L3* on 23andMe. Seems to cluster in between far Eastern Europe and West Asia imo. He actually shows up in the middle of nowhere in the Eastern Europe global similarity. His mt-DNA is T2e, which he shares with a half South Asian (father) and half white American (mother) woman.

I was just reviewing my relative finder list on 23andMe and this very same Chechen is my 4th to distant cousin according to 23andMe!!! I guess we might share the same L3* aka L1c-M357 male ancestor from generations ago? It's a real possibility? We share 0.07% on 1 segment. :P

[fil]

If I have L3* does that mean I have L1c-M357?

[parasar]

If I have L3* does that mean I have L1c-M357?

Yes. M357 is L1307 equivalent (phylogenetically):
http://www.yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/
L-L1307Y6263 * Y5558 * Y5556... 83 SNPs
L-L1307*
id:HG03790ITU
L-M2398M2398 * Z5919
L-M2398*
id:HG03821BEB
L-Z5920Z5920
L-Z5920*
id:HG03695STU
L-Z5921Z5922 * Z5921
L-Z5921*
id:HG03672STU
id:HG04094ITU
L-M5513S24402 * Z5923 * M5513
id:HG03753STU
id:HG03900STU
L-Y6247Y6296 * Y6295 * Y6294... 47 SNPs
id:YF01902RUS [RU-CE]
id:YF02043RUS [RU-CE]
id:YF02769new

Please also see the pink branch under LT - http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/13/000802.DC5/000802-3.pdf

[Sapporo]

Yfull calls it L-L1307 it looks like:

http://yfull.com/tree/L/

I'm guessing those new Russian results are Chechens. Wonder where Punjabi and Afghan L1c would fall.

I was reading what BMG wrote and it's been noted that the South Indian L1c is a bit different than the Northwestern South Asian/South Central Asian version common among Jatts, Pashtuns (both Paksitani and Afghan), Kalash & Burusho based on STR values.

Not sure how it reached North Caucasus populations like Chechens & Ingush and to a lesser extent Northern Iran (according to the original study I posted)/Turkey (according to 23andMe) but it definitely seems to peak on the Northwestern part of South Asia? We know for sure that H1a seems to be a South Eurasian Y-DNA since it is really only found among Romani outside of South Asia and is more frequent the deeper into the subcontinent you go so where does L1c-M357 fit in? For whatever reason, the populations it peaks in are likely due to a founder effect and drift.

However, is L1c-M357 local or not? Could it have originated in South Central Asia but never successfully expanded outside of the region as shown by rather low frequencies in Southern India and West of Afghanistan? The one notable exception being the Chechens of hte North Caucasus?

[jesus]

L1c-M357 Frequency in Iran

Baloch 8.3%
Turkmen 5.8%
Persian (Fars S Iran) 4.5%
Persian (Khorasan NE Iran) 3.4%
Armenian (Tehran) 2.9%
Persian ( Yazd C Iran) 2.1%
Gilak (Caspian N Iran)1.6%
Azeri (NW Iran) 1.6%
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eW1ewu33_eA/UAgkXmyyyQI/AAAAAAAAFDM/GDG06jc222Q/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.g003.png

It's also found in Iranian Kuwaitis who came from SW Iran. They were Originally from the city of Behbahan, Khuzestan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behbahan
They are in the Chechen cluster https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

[jesus]

The Afghan L3 is older than the Pakistani and the Indian one. So that could mean that L3 originated in Afghanistan, because the Indian L3 is way younger than the Afghan/Pakistani L3.

Indian L3 originated 5.2±2.4 kya, it correlates with the supposed time period of the Indo-Aryan Migrations. I wonder how old is the Iranian and North caucasian L3.





Haplogroup L-M20, on the other hand, was hypothesized to have originated in India or the Middle East37 approximately 30 kya. This marker, which is found at 25% in north Afghanistan and 4.8% in the south, has also been previously reported at high frequencies (48%) in the Kallar community of South India33 as well as in the Druze (35%) population from Israel.38 Time estimates generated based on seven Y-STR loci within L-M20 lineages for north (14.6±7.3 kya) and south (17.8±8.4 kya) Afghanistan populations are intermediate to those of Pakistan (26.3±5.3 kya) and India (7.5±1.7 kya) (Supplementary Table 5). Furthermore, Pakistan displays higher haplotype variance (0.548) than India (0.118), suggesting that L-M20 most likely originated in what is today Pakistan rather than in India. In addition, evolutionary time estimates (Supplementary Table 5) generated for L3-M357 lineages when combining north and south Afghanistan populations (11.4±5.0 kya) are comparable to those computed for Pakistan (10.8±3.8 kya) and higher than India (5.2±2.4 kya) at the seven-loci resolution. This finding supports the notion that the L3-M357 sub-clade is of Afghani or Pakistani origin
and subsequently spread southernly to India.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n10/full/ejhg201259a.html

[Dr_McNinja]

Very likely from Pakistan. The heat maps all show it peaking there. Wikipedia's shows Balochistan. I read, I think on this forum somewhere, that the Popalzai (who have been almost all L1c) might have originated in what is now Balochistan.

I have a strong suspicion it's been linked to the spread of Kshatriya-type castes/groups in that area.

[jesus]

Very likely from Pakistan. The heat maps all show it peaking there. Wikipedia's shows Balochistan. I read, I think on this forum somewhere, that the Popalzai (who have been almost all L1c) might have originated in what is now Balochistan.

I have a strong suspicion it's been linked to the spread of Kshatriya-type castes/groups in that area.

Since the Afghan L3 is 600 years older(If I am reading that correctly) than the Pakistani one, that makes Afghan origin more plausible. The frequency of L3 in Pashtuns(Afghanistan 12%) is higher than the Baloch In Iran and Afghanistan (8% and 7.6%)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/rare-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html

What's the frequency of L3 in Pakistani Baloch ?

Edit: High frequency ≠ origin tho

[surbakhunWeesste]

Very likely from Pakistan. The heat maps all show it peaking there. Wikipedia's shows Balochistan. I read, I think on this forum somewhere, that the Popalzai (who have been almost all L1c) might have originated in what is now Balochistan.

I have a strong suspicion it's been linked to the spread of Kshatriya-type castes/groups in that area.

I am a Popalzai, my father's Ydna is R1a1a* . The vast majority of my Popalzai relatives are R1a1a*(over 80%), followed by G2c1, J2 then L3. I have L3 relatives too but they are Achakzais who are Barakzai Pashtuns."

[Kurd]

I am a Popalzai, my father's Ydna is R1a1a* . The vast majority of my Popalzai relatives are R1a1a*(over 80%), followed by G2c1, J2 then L3. I have L3 relatives too but they are Achakzais who are Barakzai Pashtuns."

Although occuring at a lower frequncy than the Pashtuns, R1a1a* is a major lineage of the Kurds & Baloch, occuring with a frequency of 20/25%

[kenji.aryan]

Very likely from Pakistan. The heat maps all show it peaking there. Wikipedia's shows Balochistan. I read, I think on this forum somewhere, that the Popalzai (who have been almost all L1c) might have originated in what is now Balochistan.

I have a strong suspicion it's been linked to the spread of Kshatriya-type castes/groups in that area.



I read somewhere that all clades of L are found in Baloch's and they show maximum diversity of this haplogroup and then its makrani's ( Not sure about the sources) so maybe the origin of this haplogroup is in Baluchistan part of Pakistan.

[parasar]

The Afghan L3 is older than the Pakistani and the Indian one. So that could mean that L3 originated in Afghanistan, because the Indian L3 is way younger than the Afghan/Pakistani L3.

Indian L3 originated 5.2±2.4 kya, it correlates with the supposed time period of the Indo-Aryan Migrations. I wonder how old is the Iranian and North caucasian L3.



http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n10/full/ejhg201259a.html

First this is just based on seven STRs so problematic at best. But it does look reasonable as the northern Indian L3 does looks relatively young even with many more markers. But that is definitely not the case with the Tamil L3. They look quite diverse and different (except for the Vadama Brahmin one which is more akin to the northern ones).

DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

[parasar]

I am a Popalzai, my father's Ydna is R1a1a* . The vast majority of my Popalzai relatives are R1a1a*(over 80%), followed by G2c1, J2 then L3. I have L3 relatives too but they are Achakzais who are Barakzai Pashtuns."

Is anyone in the R1a1 and Subclades project? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ysnp

[jesus]

First this is just based on seven STRs so problematic at best. But it does look reasonable as the northern Indian L3 does looks relatively young even with many more markers. But that is definitely not the case with the Tamil L3. They look quite diverse and different (except for the Vadama Brahmin one which is more akin to the northern ones).

DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

What about the North Caucasian and Kuwaiti ones, can we tell if they're younger or older than the L3 found in Pakistan and India ?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

[parasar]

What about the North Caucasian and Kuwaiti ones, can we tell if they're younger or older than the L3 found in Pakistan and India ?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Kuwaitis look like one or two families or are closely related indicating very young age. They are of the Chechen type. The Chechen are more diverse but less so than Pakistanis and Afghans. For northern India the lineage has expanded rapidly among some, or maybe a particular region where L3 is more common has tested more. It was difficult to even find L3 among Tamils until the samples size was increased by a magnitude.

[jesus]

The Kuwaitis look like one or two families or are closely related indicating very young age. They are of the Chechen type. The Chechen are more diverse but less so than Pakistanis and Afghans. For northern India the lineage has expanded rapidly among some, or maybe a particular region where L3 is more common has tested more. It was difficult to even find L3 among Tamils until the samples size was increased by a magnitude.

They are indeed related. They are Iranian Kuwaitis and hail from the same city in Iran.

[Sapporo]

Zahra, how many relatives are we talking about here though? Just for numbers sake? I believe the majority of Pashtuns tested so far are predominately R1a1a* but the number hovers closer to 50% rather than 80%. Dr_McNinja has a decent list of individual Pashtuns in terms of Y-DNA and quite a few Durrani are L3*/L1c-M357.

There is an Amarkhel on facebook's who has an L3* ancestor and wrote:

"A maternal-sided Great grandfather of mine is L1c and linked with the Mohammadzai Telayi branch of Durrani Pashtuns who can trace their ancestry back to Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder."

[Dr_McNinja]

The ancestry haplogroup spreadsheet is in my sig: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdG8yX1hkLXNVbFVsR1JuOURBdnpad EE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Also, FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Dr_McNinja]

I read somewhere that all clades of L are found in Baloch's and they show maximum diversity of this haplogroup and then its makrani's ( Not sure about the sources) so maybe the origin of this haplogroup is in Baluchistan part of Pakistan.This is what I heard as well. Also the older branch being in Afghanistan now doesn't mean it originated there, especially if the majority of Afghan L1c might have origins in current day Pakistan. These political boundaries are recent. I think Sein wrote about it once but I recall them having originated in Balochistan then moving around towards Herat, near Iran, before taking over Kandahar and staying there ever since.

It'd be cool to get an analysis of ancient remains from Afghanistan, particularly during its Buddhist era.

[Dr_McNinja]

Zahra, how many relatives are we talking about here though? Just for numbers sake? I believe the majority of Pashtuns tested so far are predominately R1a1a* but the number hovers closer to 50% rather than 80%. Dr_McNinja has a decent list of individual Pashtuns in terms of Y-DNA and quite a few Durrani are L3*/L1c-M357.

There is an Amarkhel on facebook's who has an L3* ancestor and wrote:

"A maternal-sided Great grandfather of mine is L1c and linked with the Mohammadzai Telayi branch of Durrani Pashtuns who can trace their ancestry back to Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder."

HRP0370's kit had few matches on FTDNA and Gedmatch but there was some Amarkhels I remember. There's one clear Afghan at the top of the Gedmatch (4.3 generations back) who's L3*/H13 with kit # M377634.

Actually just looked and there's another L3*, kit M026581 (distant match, 24cM total and 6+ generations back):


Population
S-Indian 15.66%
Baloch 36.50%
Caucasian 23.44%
NE-Euro 14.70%
SE-Asian 0.05%
Siberian 2.00%
NE-Asian 1.35%
Papuan 0.23%
American 0.78%
Beringian 0.70%
Mediterranean 0.34%
SW-Asian 4.24%
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African - Must be Pashtun. Maternal is J1b1b1.

There is also what appears to be a Sindhi L3*:


Population
S-Indian 23.85%
Baloch 47.01%
Caucasian 13.23%
NE-Euro 5.68%
SE-Asian 0.22%
Siberian -
NE-Asian 1.11%
Papuan -
American 0.37%
Beringian 1.15%
Mediterranean -
SW-Asian 4.90%
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African 2.48% (Kit M084237)

[surbakhunWeesste]

Although occuring at a lower frequncy than the Pashtuns, R1a1a* is a major lineage of the Kurds & Baloch, occuring with a frequency of 20/25%

I wish more Afghan Pashtuns were tested. Even amongst Pashtuns, we have differences: dialect wise; clothing wise; a bit culture wise... I strongly believe that we would find other Ydna too.

[surbakhunWeesste]

Is anyone in the R1a1 and Subclades project? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=ysnp

From my family? I do not know the sub clad of my father's ydna , all of us got tested with 23 & me not Ftdna.

[surbakhunWeesste]

Zahra, how many relatives are we talking about here though? Just for numbers sake? I believe the majority of Pashtuns tested so far are predominately R1a1a* but the number hovers closer to 50% rather than 80%. Dr_McNinja has a decent list of individual Pashtuns in terms of Y-DNA and quite a few Durrani are L3*/L1c-M357.

There is an Amarkhel on facebook's who has an L3* ancestor and wrote:

"A maternal-sided Great grandfather of mine is L1c and linked with the Mohammadzai Telayi branch of Durrani Pashtuns who can trace their ancestry back to Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder."

I cannot speak on behalf of all Pashtuns and make a statement here. I was talking about my dna relatives who are from Kandahar and my dna relatives on 23 & me. Not all Durranis are the same! we have branches. Barakzais seem to be L3, as least amongst my own relatives and dna relatives.
Also, check this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz89CIayDIqZQndhYXRmS3duTVU/edit
Pashtuns from southern Afghanistan are 66.8% R1a1a while the ones in the North are 50% R1a1a

Shah Baba's relatives! interesting, however, my paternal side claims his lineage too B), so does my maternal side B) What can I say!!!
Mohammadzai! are Barakzai Pashtuns. Shah Baba was a Popal (Sadozai) not a Barakzai, unless that individual is claiming ancestry maternally!!!even so??? His maternal side is Alakozai. Also, "Amarkhels" are Ghilzais not Durranis.

[parasar]

From my family? I do not know the sub clad of my father's ydna , all of us got tested with 23 & me not Ftdna.

The 80% number is likely due to isolation and drift. I have see similar numbers for the Yousafzai - "genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes" https://www.academia.edu/3569226/Y-Chromosomal_STR_Haplotype_Profiling_in_Yousafzai_s _living_in_Swat_Valley_Pakistan

If one your relatives could test with FTDNA we could potentially find out the subclade.

[Kurd]

I wish more Afghan Pashtuns were tested. Even amongst Pashtuns, we have differences: dialect wise; clothing wise; a bit culture wise... I strongly believe that we would find other Ydna too.

A couple of papers that I have listed under my 2 posts at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3744-MDLP-World-22-INDO-IRANIAN-amp-ANE-CHARTS-amp-DISCUSSION/page4 discuss other Pashtun Y DNA lineages.

[DMXX]

Zahra, how many relatives are we talking about here though? Just for numbers sake? I believe the majority of Pashtuns tested so far are predominately R1a1a* but the number hovers closer to 50% rather than 80%. Dr_McNinja has a decent list of individual Pashtuns in terms of Y-DNA and quite a few Durrani are L3*/L1c-M357.

There is an Amarkhel on facebook's who has an L3* ancestor and wrote:

"A maternal-sided Great grandfather of mine is L1c and linked with the Mohammadzai Telayi branch of Durrani Pashtuns who can trace their ancestry back to Ahmad Shah Durrani, the founder."

Agreed, the Pashtun frequency for Y-DNA R1a1a probably lies in the 45-55% range if all samples are collated. Considering that the overwhelming majority of R1a1a-M17 in South (and West) Asia is Z93+ with a recent common ancestor (2500 B.C.?), that is still a significant statistic. Parasar is correct in correlating the 70+% values in specific Pashtun locales or tribes with genetic drift (the intact tribal structure of Pashtuns basically resulted in a socially-mediated founder effect on the paternal lines). Specific Y-DNA motifs in particular tribes or regions are obviously useful to appraise, but the point is, a context must be established and understood.

Not addressing anyone in particular here, but there is a tendency online for some enthusiasts to fixate on the large frequency numbers. If we're going by frequency alone, the Khotons of Mongolia currently surpass all the isolated groups of South-Central Asia (e.g. Pashtuns, Tajiks) as well as all Subcontinental groups (refer to Sharma et al. 2009*) with a frequency of 82.5% (Katoh et al. 2005). As beefy and as stimulatory of the inferior temporal gyrus that figure is, it doesn't mean much with respect to the general picture of Y-DNA R1a1a, particularly in the absence of diversity indicators (STR or SNP). The Mongols have their own clan system variant, once more making the proposition this frequency is the result of a super founder effect a confident one.

This is just my personal speculation, but I do wonder whether there's a hidden Z93- element among the Pashtuns we haven't picked up yet... It was mentioned elsewhere on the forum that the Xiaohe R1a were Z93-. Z93+ is generally taken as indication of the Indo-Iranian dispersals. A non-Z93 form of R1a1a found in Xiaohe implies Afanasievo too was Z93-, meaning the speakers of Tocharian were Z93-. The Yuezhi were a tribal confederation displaced into territory currently home to the Pashtun people. It is widely speculated they had a Tocharian element among them. A part of me entertains the proposition there are patchy signs of Tocharian admixture among the Pashtun people we haven't been able to definitively affirm just yet. Who knows, zahra's Kandahari copper SNP variant (rs111400=C) might be "Tocharian" in origin (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3631-Britain-s-DNA-Red-Head-Test-Results-Post-Them-Here-Please&p=66769&viewfull=1#post66769). ;)

* There was a lot of excitement online when West Bengali Brahmins were noted to be 72% R1a1a-M17. I never understood the excitement for the reasons stated above. But I've always been more interested in the phylogenetic rooting of branches rather than highly-specific genealogical twigs.

[BMG]

First this is just based on seven STRs so problematic at best. But it does look reasonable as the northern Indian L3 does looks relatively young even with many more markers. But that is definitely not the case with the Tamil L3. They look quite diverse and different (except for the Vadama Brahmin one which is more akin to the northern ones).

DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11
Rather the str diversity I would like to see SNP differentiation . Presently at yfull the Russians appear to be completely different line to south Asians. I would like a yfull result of a pashtun/jatt their position on the tree could be a vital clue to the origins of L3

[parasar]

Agreed, the Pashtun frequency for Y-DNA R1a1a probably lies in the 45-55% range if all samples are collated. Considering that the overwhelming majority of R1a1a-M17 in South (and West) Asia is Z93+ with a recent common ancestor (2500 B.C.?), that is still a significant statistic. Parasar is correct in correlating the 70+% values in specific Pashtun locales or tribes with genetic drift (the intact tribal structure of Pashtuns basically resulted in a socially-mediated founder effect on the paternal lines). Specific Y-DNA motifs in particular tribes or regions are obviously useful to appraise, but the point is, a context must be established and understood.

Not addressing anyone in particular here, but there is a tendency online for some enthusiasts to fixate on the large frequency numbers. If we're going by frequency alone, the Khotons of Mongolia currently surpass all the isolated groups of South-Central Asia (e.g. Pashtuns, Tajiks) as well as all Subcontinental groups (refer to Sharma et al. 2009*) with a frequency of 82.5% (Katoh et al. 2005). As beefy and as stimulatory of the inferior temporal gyrus that figure is, it doesn't mean much with respect to the general picture of Y-DNA R1a1a, particularly in the absence of diversity indicators (STR or SNP). The Mongols have their own clan system variant, once more making the proposition this frequency is the result of a super founder effect a confident one.

This is just my personal speculation, but I do wonder whether there's a hidden Z93- element among the Pashtuns we haven't picked up yet... It was mentioned elsewhere on the forum that the Xiaohe R1a were Z93-. Z93+ is generally taken as indication of the Indo-Iranian dispersals. A non-Z93 form of R1a1a found in Xiaohe implies Afanasievo too was Z93-, meaning the speakers of Tocharian were Z93-. The Yuezhi were a tribal confederation displaced into territory currently home to the Pashtun people. It is widely speculated they had a Tocharian element among them. A part of me entertains the proposition there are patchy signs of Tocharian admixture among the Pashtun people we haven't been able to definitively affirm just yet. Who knows, zahra's Kandahari copper SNP variant (rs111400=C) might be "Tocharian" in origin (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3631-Britain-s-DNA-Red-Head-Test-Results-Post-Them-Here-Please&p=66769&viewfull=1#post66769). ;)

* There was a lot of excitement online when West Bengali Brahmins were noted to be 72% R1a1a-M17. I never understood the excitement for the reasons stated above. But I've always been more interested in the phylogenetic rooting of branches rather than highly-specific genealogical twigs.

Some other claimants to the 70%+ club!
One the Xiaohe you mention - 91.67% (11/12)
Krasnoyarsk - 87.5% (7/8)
UP Thakur - 100%! (just 5 samples though http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2006/01/11/0507714103.DC1/07714Table_3.pdf ).
Sindhi Mohana - 71%

[parasar]

Rather the str diversity I would like to see SNP differentiation . Presently at yfull the Russians appear to be completely different line to south Asians. I would like a yfull result of a pashtun/jatt their position on the tree could be a vital clue to the origins of L3

True it would help to get SNP diversity for the southern Indian samples.
We also have to keep in mind that some STR locus such DYS426 have mutation rates in the same range as SNPs. And the Tamils have three values at DYS426 10,11,12.
A few polymorphisms with SNP type names are actually STRs - https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21L69

On YFull Telugu HG03790 is also a separate line from both the Russian and other South Asians listed.

[parasar]

Regarding the Caucasus L3,
pg 16 Supplementary Figure 1 (continued). Phylogenetic networks for the high-frequency
Caucasus haplogroups. Haplogroup L3-M357, indicates that their phylogeny is nearly as simple as it can be. Almost certain a recent founder.
It is an interesting comparison with other Y lines:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2011/05/12/msr126.DC1/Supplementary_Notes_and_Figures.pdf

[DMXX]

Posts discussing the Yuezhi split to here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3795-Split-The-Yuezhi-Who-Were-They&p=67604&viewfull=1#post67604). Discussions regarding Pashtun R1a are great, and I'll have to split them into their own thread if the conversations continue down that path.

[Dr_McNinja]

I suppose people could donate to the L project at FTDNA to get a Big Y for one of the Pashtun or Punjabi samples. Or collect them on your own and get a FGC Y Prime test or something. How much does Big Y cost now anyway?

[The Barnacle]

HRP0370's kit had few matches on FTDNA and Gedmatch but there was some Amarkhels I remember. There's one clear Afghan at the top of the Gedmatch (4.3 generations back) who's L3*/H13 with kit # M377634.

Actually just looked and there's another L3*, kit M026581 (distant match, 24cM total and 6+ generations back):

Must be Pashtun. Maternal is J1b1b1.

There is also what appears to be a Sindhi L3*:

(Kit M084237)

So the person above with the Harappa results is unidentified? Must be a pashtun then because their resujts are very similar to other afghans. Would be interesting to see which part of Afghanistan they come from. Btw do we still have no western afghan results yet?

[The Barnacle]

The 25 marker results are back for HRP0370's brother and there's one match with 1 genetic distance, someone claiming descent from Abbas Quli Khan, son of Shah Wali Khan Bamezai, the Wazir/Vizier of Ahmad Shah Durrani. I know HRP0370's family have a bunch of Bamezai ancestors going back to that same Wazir. At a genetic distance of 2 are the Wazirzadas (Although listed as Sadozai, it could presumably be a surname also linked to the Bamezai, the Popalzai sub-tribe who had hereditary charge of the ministerial position for the Durrani regime) and a Mohammadzai (claiming descent from Sardar Mohammad Amin Khan, possibly the son of Dost Muhammad Khan Barakzai), but at different markers.

When the 37 marker tests are done we'll see if the distance increases. There's quite a lot of variation among all the Afghan Popalzai L1c-M357 so I don't know if we'll be able to distinguish particular sub-tribes or lineages with any great clarity.

The TiP report for 25 markers for the Barakzai:

Generations Percentage
4 7.85%
8 28.91%
12 51.97%
16 70.34%
20 82.81%
24 90.48%

For the Shah Wali Khan Bamezai descendant:

Generations Percentage
4 27.28%
8 57.84%
12 77.90%
16 89.07%
20 94.79%
24 97.58%

The progenitor of the Sadozai, Sado Khan, is named "Asadullah Saddu Khan Popalzai 1556-1627 Kandahar" in the FTDNA users' profiles.

Using ~27 years per generation, that's around 1366 for the MRCA of the Popalzai sub-tribes (actually between HRP0370's line and Bamezai, so this could just be the ancestor of the Bamezai, or a common Bamezai/Sadozai ancestor) and ~1150 for the MRCA of Barakzai and Popalzai L1c-M357 if we use 32 generations.

Simranjit Singh Sandhu (who some of us share with on 23andMe) shows up with a genetic distance of 9 on YSearch. There's an Arab with a genetic distance of 4 claiming a paternal ancestor (presumably Arab) named Rashid Ahmad in the 9th century.

The Ysearch results: http://i.imgur.com/YLWa2TP.png

Could you post her brothers harappa results please?

[Dr_McNinja]

http://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

Someone got a FGC test on the South Asian L1c tree: YF02966. Anyone know who it is and their background?

[Dr_McNinja]

Could you post her brothers harappa results please?He only took the Y-DNA test. His autosomal would be near identical to his sister's anyway.

[jesus]

L3 in Pakistan map

http://i.imgur.com/brV0wMn.png

Frequency
http://i.imgur.com/5LYcz0d.png

Pakistani Punjabi castes Y-DNA
http://i.imgur.com/k9Z5ue6.png

[BMG]

I am not a fan of these extrapolated frequency maps.It rather misinfomes than giving a true picture.
L3 in Pakistan map

http://i.imgur.com/brV0wMn.png

Frequency
http://i.imgur.com/5LYcz0d.png

Pakistani Punjabi castes Y-DNA
http://i.imgur.com/k9Z5ue6.png

[Dr_McNinja]

After the last batch, YFull updated their TMRCA estimates:

http://yfull.com/tree/L/

So far only the West Asian L1c-M357 line has come past ~6000ybp. The South Asian branch hasn't yet.

[Caspian]

^ There are TMRCA 5150-5300 ybp estimates for L1a and L1c in Indian subcontinent.

http://i.imgur.com/2JwvRwx.jpg

[newtoboard]

^ There are TMRCA 5150-5300 ybp estimates for L1a and L1c in Indian subcontinent.

http://i.imgur.com/2JwvRwx.jpg

Where is this from? I doubt H is that young. Same for R2. J2 and O are not that old either. Same for R1a and Q1b. Z93+ is only 3500 years old and it didn't originate in South Asia and probably didn't cross the Urals till even 4000 ybp much less reach South Asia 5450 ybp. What migration would bring L1a, L1c and G2 that old? If they came from West Asia it would have been in the Neolithic.

[Caspian]

I've found that in a Russian genetic discussion forum. That dendrogram created by Igor Rozhansky, a Russian geneticist and he has posted it dendrogram. The dendrogram includes 927 haplotypes from differet ethnics and castes in India. I think different subclades of R1a was ignored in the dendrogram. I don't know much details about that.

I think L1a founder of Harappan civilization. Or Could L1c and Q1b have gone to India from BMAC?

[Caspian]

L1c (new L1a2) phylogenetic tree is created by Igor Rozhansky using 67 str markers from FTDNA database.

http://i.imgur.com/aggzIck.jpg

Chechen samples have a clear and young cluster. Their estimated TMRCA is 1300 years.

[ADW_1981]

Q1b have gone to India from BMAC?

Do we have any evidence that Q1b is even native to the region? It most likely arrived with Turks and Mongols. For all we know Q may have evolved deep within Siberia and only spread more recently.

L and (T) are more of an enigma in my view at least, but the former seems most certainly linked with Central Asians to some degree but possibly part of a farming culture rather than pastoralist one. Hard to say without aDNA.

[parasar]

Where is this from? I doubt H is that young. Same for R2. J2 and O are not that old either. Same for R1a and Q1b. Z93+ is only 3500 years old and it didn't originate in South Asia and probably didn't cross the Urals till even 4000 ybp much less reach South Asia 5450 ybp. What migration would bring L1a, L1c and G2 that old? If they came from West Asia it would have been in the Neolithic.

Where are you getting this date for Z93?
Even L657 which is almost exclusively from South Asia and it immediate surrounds is older:
http://yfull.com/tree/R-L657/
R-L657 Y3/F2597/M727 * Y26/M780 * L657/S347... 4 SNPs formed 4700 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp




After the last batch, YFull updated their TMRCA estimates:

http://yfull.com/tree/L/

So far only the West Asian L1c-M357 line has come past ~6000ybp. The South Asian branch hasn't yet.

Now: L-L1307 Y5536 * M2364 * M2429... 85 SNPs formed 16500 ybp, TMRCA 7400 ybp

[parasar]

Chechen samples have a clear and young cluster. Their estimated TMRCA is 1300 years.

FWIW, an L1c Chechen on another forum used to give a 1400ybp frame for the arrival of his ancestors in the Caucasus.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/33289-Origins-of-Haplogroup-L1c-M357?p=1129182&viewfull=1#post1129182

Hello I forgot my English, taught at the school 40 years ago, and spoke only Russian. Use a translator ...
Vokkkhala Pula ... there was a long war and rebellion. His brother was killed Sikkim , he took the family of the 13 names of those close to him , and the residue Guard army. Then he secret way to escape from the huge army and the rebels came to the Caucasus. Here he settled in the hill country Lam-Akkha/Lamahar (Mount Kazbek , Galanchozh ) and the plain where now the city of Stavropol, Hasan Yurt.

[Caspian]

FWIW, an L1c Chechen on another forum used to give a 1400ybp frame for the arrival of his ancestors in the Caucasus.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/33289-Origins-of-Haplogroup-L1c-M357?p=1129182&viewfull=1#post1129182

It haplotype is common in Dishni clan of Chechens.
I've read elsewhere that the some clans of Chechens are originally a Chechenized people. Is it story consistent with TMRCA ages?
He wrote interesting things.

[Dr_McNinja]

YFull added this mysterious "ERS233567" individual to L-M357:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/L/

I googled it and according to this,

http://sra.dnanexus.com/samples/ERS233567/studies

It's Kalash from that recent study (the one which said they were an isolate from 10kya). According to YFull, it diverged from other currently sequenced South Asian lines (mostly South Indian) 6900ybp.

[paulgill]

L1c (new L1a2) phylogenetic tree is created by Igor Rozhansky using 67 str markers from FTDNA database.

http://i.imgur.com/aggzIck.jpg

Chechen samples have a clear and young cluster. Their estimated TMRCA is 1300 years.

It was better if SNPs were used, I guess that option wasn't available.

[Dr_McNinja]

https://yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/

There's a slew of Arab results in both sides of the tree now.

To me this looks like an ancient South Central/Southwest Asian lineage from perhaps Iran/Balochistan/Afghanistan now. Perhaps a Neolithic-era civilization like Mehrgarh or perhaps even IVC. It has lineages going into Kalash, Arabs, Afghans, and Indians. Populations which should have plenty of indigenous pre-Indo-Iranian lineages. I wonder what the frequency is in Iranians...

The ~1000 year old expansion in the Caucasus (Chechnya) is still interesting though, could be connected to a known historical period.

[jesus]

https://yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/

There's a slew of Arab results in both sides of the tree now.

To me this looks like an ancient South Central/Southwest Asian lineage from perhaps Iran/Balochistan/Afghanistan now. Perhaps a Neolithic-era civilization like Mehrgarh or perhaps even IVC. It has lineages going into Kalash, Arabs, Afghans, and Indians. Populations which should have plenty of indigenous pre-Indo-Iranian lineages. I wonder what the frequency is in Iranians...

The ~1000 year old expansion in the Caucasus (Chechnya) is still interesting though, could be connected to a known historical period.

Chechens also show higher south central Asian+ south Asian than their neighbors, so it probably came from central/south central Asia.

Btw SRR127497 is Kuwaiti Persian.
https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASearch/submission?acc=SRA162046

If the new Qatari samples are from this study, then the samples weren't of Arabian origins. The Arabians in that sample didn't have Y-DNA L, so the sample is from the Persian-South Asian group.
Study link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26728717

http://i.imgur.com/uDSWWC0.png

[Lom]

YFull YTree v4.06
https://yfull.com/tree/L/

[sultan]

These samples you have downloaded from Pam file after checking Big y to yfull

https://yfull.com/tree/L/

for iran
L-L1305


for Arab

L-m357

L1307*
Y11220*
L-Z5921*
L-Y17950

We will work with more results

10697

[Arame]

Do Burushos belong to this M357 branch?
In wiki it is said that they have more than 40% of L.

upd. I found the answer. Burushos are all M357.

[Dr_McNinja]

https://yfull.com/tree/L-L1307/

Some Tajik samples added from a study

ERR445270 - Christian Konkani
ERR445279 - India

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Yeah, I have M357 as L1a2 under 2016 nomenclature. Fascinating to read about the Burosho link. Would love sources to read more. We hear so little of L1a2. Good to see the new Tajik samples on Yfull. Again, Central Asia is such a vacuum of samples. Thanks all.

[Sapporo]

So, I'm L1a2 (L3-M357) and I'm interested in getting a deep clade Y-DNA test. Is the 37 marker one sufficient? I want to see the age of my line and which L1a2 subclades it is closest to (Jatts/Punjabis, North Indian, South Indian, Kalash, Burusho, Pashtuns, Pamiris, Chechens, etc.). I also have a distant Chechen L1a2 relative on 23andMe. I want to see if we're related through our paternal line. If I get Chechen matches on FTDNA, it would confirm it.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/pdf/fgene-08-00121.pdf
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12283-New-study-Y-DNA-analysis-of-Jats-Hindu-Sikh-Muslim-hot-off-the-press

edit: I'm aware there are probably other Jatt Sikhs already on FTDNA with L1a2 lines tested but since the subclades on the Mahal Jatt study weren't focused upon, I feel like I can be a guinea pig stand in for them since most of us are L1a2 and should share the same subclades.

[BMG]

So, I'm L1a2 (L3-M357) and I'm interested in getting a deep clade Y-DNA test. Is the 37 marker one sufficient? I want to see the age of my line and which L1a2 subclades it is closest to (Jatts/Punjabis, North Indian, South Indian, Kalash, Burusho, Pashtuns, Pamiris, Chechens, etc.). I also have a distant Chechen L1a2 relative on 23andMe. I want to see if we're related through our paternal line. If I get Chechen matches on FTDNA, it would confirm it.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/pdf/fgene-08-00121.pdf
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12283-New-study-Y-DNA-analysis-of-Jats-Hindu-Sikh-Muslim-hot-off-the-press

edit: I'm aware there are probably other Jatt Sikhs already on FTDNA with L1a2 lines tested but since the subclades on the Mahal Jatt study weren't focused upon, I feel like I can be a guinea pig stand in for them since most of us are L1a2 and should share the same subclades.
Are you going to take BigY test ? I also will do a BigY or something similar for my maternal uncle who is L1a2 but first I will do one for myself . Since it is costly it will take time to save for this. This is turning out to be an expensive hobby for me . As I have done 2 Geno 2.0 for me and my maternal uncle ,then family finder for myself and lately 23&me for my paternal grandfather's sister and paternal grandmother's sister .
I won't do a STR test though . I can't see anything useful with that these days especially at 37 markers .

[Sapporo]

Are you going to take BigY test ? I also will do a BigY or something similar for my maternal uncle who is L1a2 but first I will do one for myself . Since it is costly it will take time to save for this. This is turning out to be an expensive hobby for me . As I have done 2 Geno 2.0 for me and my maternal uncle ,then family finder for myself and lately 23&me for my paternal grandfather's sister and paternal grandmother's sister .
I won't do a STR test though . I can't see anything useful with that these days especially at 37 markers .

That's the question I'm running into. I don't know what test to get or I need. All I really care is finding out my subclade and finding my Y-DNA matches who share my clade and branch for L1a2. What test should I be looking at? It says to do a Big Y test at FTDNA you need to be:


Any male Family Tree DNA customer with a complete Y-STR test may order the Big Y product. However, we do ask that you consider carefully before ordering.

1. A high-quality sample is needed for Big Y. Therefore, the person tested should be willing and able to provide a new DNA sample if needed.
2. All customers are strongly encouraged to seek the guidance of a Y-DNA haplogroup project administrator before ordering.
3. Most results interpretation for Big Y will come from volunteer project administrators, including Y-DNA haplogroup administrators.

So, I need one of the Y-STR test first? Does that mean the full 111 marker one?

[parasar]

So, I'm L1a2 (L3-M357) and I'm interested in getting a deep clade Y-DNA test. Is the 37 marker one sufficient? I want to see the age of my line and which L1a2 subclades it is closest to (Jatts/Punjabis, North Indian, South Indian, Kalash, Burusho, Pashtuns, Pamiris, Chechens, etc.). I also have a distant Chechen L1a2 relative on 23andMe. I want to see if we're related through our paternal line. If I get Chechen matches on FTDNA, it would confirm it.

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/pdf/fgene-08-00121.pdf
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12283-New-study-Y-DNA-analysis-of-Jats-Hindu-Sikh-Muslim-hot-off-the-press

edit: I'm aware there are probably other Jatt Sikhs already on FTDNA with L1a2 lines tested but since the subclades on the Mahal Jatt study weren't focused upon, I feel like I can be a guinea pig stand in for them since most of us are L1a2 and should share the same subclades.

The 37 markers may not be that useful for you since M357 is showing a recent founder effect in the north. You will likely be very close to other Jatts and a couple of thousand years distant from the Chechens.
It may be best to identify M357 candidates for full Y scan and do a crowd funding when there is sale - they way we just did for P295. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13578-P-P295-needs-Big-Y&p=356395#post356395 Some full scans also give you full mtDNA and many STRs.

For phylogenetic purposes it may best to choose M357 from geographically distant regions in South Asia.

Magoon et al. had South Asians from the east and south, so it may be best pick one from the north-west and one from Sindh. It will interesting to see if NWestern and Sindhi M357 fall on the Y6288 branch or M2398 or something else.
"five in the M357 area" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/13/000802.DC5/000802-3.pdf
HG03790 ITU
L-M2398
...HG03821 BEB
......HG03695 STU
..........HG04094 ITU
............HG03672 STU
..............HG03900 STU
..............HG03753 STU

BMG has listed some others here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2891-Kerala-Y-DNA-Distribution/page2

[BMG]

That's the question I'm running into. I don't know what test to get or I need. All I really care is finding out my subclade and finding my Y-DNA matches who share my clade and branch for L1a2. What test should I be looking at? It says to do a Big Y test at FTDNA you need to be:


Any male Family Tree DNA customer with a complete Y-STR test may order the Big Y product. However, we do ask that you consider carefully before ordering.

1. A high-quality sample is needed for Big Y. Therefore, the person tested should be willing and able to provide a new DNA sample if needed.
2. All customers are strongly encouraged to seek the guidance of a Y-DNA haplogroup project administrator before ordering.
3. Most results interpretation for Big Y will come from volunteer project administrators, including Y-DNA haplogroup administrators.

So, I need one of the Y-STR test first? Does that mean the full 111 marker one?

I would recommend to go for BigY directly . I would recommend STR tests only for geneological purposes for finding near relatives within past few generations .

[Sapporo]

I would recommend to go for BigY directly . I would recommend STR tests only for geneological purposes for finding near relatives within past few generations .

How do you purchase Big Y directly? It seems FTNDA wants you to do at least do a 37 marker STR rest first to qualify for Big Y.

[GarethH]

How do you purchase Big Y directly? It seems FTNDA wants you to do at least do a 37 marker STR rest first to qualify for Big Y.
Hello, I've sent you a PM with the code to order a cheaper starter test.

[heksindhi]

Sindh. It will interesting to see if NWestern and Sindhi M357 fall on the Y6288 branch or M2398 or something else.


I'm Sindhi and L1a2 - it would be interesting to see the Jat, Sindhi, Burusho L1a2's mapped out

[khanabadoshi]

Is there an SNP pack these guys can purchase instead of doing the Big-Y?
For my cousin I just purchased the SNP-R1a backbone test, since I had already done the Big-Y; and the only reason I did that was to confirm he'd get the same assignment as myself and that my result wasn't some mistake.
It's a lot cheaper to get an SNP pack if you have an idea of what part of the tree to test.

[GarethH]

Is there an SNP pack these guys can purchase instead of doing the Big-Y?
There is a L-M20 pack with about 45 SNPs relevant to L-M357 including the key branch SNPs Y6288 and M2398.

[BMG]

There is a L-M20 pack with about 45 SNPs relevant to L-M357 including the key branch SNPs Y6288 and M2398.
What is the cost ?

[GarethH]

What is the cost ?

Currently $119 for around 160 SNPs of which 45-50 are relevant to each of L-M27, L-M357 and L-M317 with SNPs for L-L595 and haplogroup level making up the balance.

[BMG]

Brokpa people have a high percentage of L1c . Out of 55 samples 38 belong to L1c .They are buddhist Brokpa from dha hanu
https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/137860

[ThaYamamoto]

Do we know anything more about the clade? Its distribution is weird, not even including the Dagestanis...is it the original Gedrosian clade? Or possibly IVC/IVCp... but I haven't seen it discussed in any of the South/Central Asia papers...shame more into the clade isn't being studied/expanded upon, or for L in general.

[Aleph]

Do we know anything more about the clade? Its distribution is weird, not even including the Dagestanis...is it the original Gedrosian clade? Or possibly IVC/IVCp... but I haven't seen it discussed in any of the South/Central Asia papers...shame more into the clade isn't being studied/expanded upon, or for L in general.

Something about this comment- Gedrosia might be linked to IVCp because of the high Baloch component among the IVC linked populations (in harappaworld). As far as the origin is concerned, I am not sure... though I will hazard to guess that it could have come from the epipaleolithic Zarazian/post-Baradostian) Iranian hunter-gatherers, a branch of which then formed a separate group in the Gedrosia-Afghanistan region, maybe between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago (I get the 15,000 year date from the study linked on this page and 12,000 from the lower limit estimate for the spread of mtDNA U7 in south Asia). The very same ones which are ancestral to IVC folks.

[JoeyP37]

L should be studied more, as its frequency in southern Iran, then along the northern shore of the Arabian Sea and into the Indian Subcontinent, and its higher frequency in Dravidian speakers versus Indo-Aryan speakers could lend credence to the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis.

[ThaYamamoto]

Something about this comment- Gedrosia might be linked to IVCp because of the high Baloch component among the IVC linked populations (in harappaworld). As far as the origin is concerned, I am not sure... though I will hazard to guess that it could have come from the epipaleolithic Zarazian/post-Baradostian) Iranian hunter-gatherers, a branch of which then formed a separate group in the Gedrosia-Afghanistan region, maybe between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago (I get the 15,000 year date from the study linked on this page and 12,000 from the lower limit estimate for the spread of mtDNA U7 in south Asia). The very same ones which are ancestral to IVC folks.

Never saw this! Great insights...its still bothering me more academic investigation hasn't been done yet.

[Sapporo]

Per my basic raw data from FGC for L1a2/L-M357, I'm coming under L-Y33989 (a friend ran my YSNP data). Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y33989/

[sultan]

Per my basic raw data from FGC for L1a2/L-M357, I'm coming under L-Y33989 (a friend ran my YSNP data). Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y33989/

This mutation of Ashkenazi Jews

[Arlus]

There is a new sample (a Syrian individual) on Yfull, apparently with a pre L-1307 subclade!
40240

[ThaYamamoto]

There is a new sample (a Syrian individual) on Yfull, apparently with a pre L-1307 subclade!
40240

Very interesting indeed. Imma have to do the big Y when it goes on sale. Any ideas as to when that usually happens?

[Arlus]

Very interesting indeed. Imma have to do the big Y when it goes on sale. Any ideas as to when that usually happens?

Yeah, I am waiting for a sale too. I would expect it around Black Friday & Christmas.

[RasulSrg]

This mutation of Ashkenazi Jews
How did you knew ashkenazis are exactly in this branch? Maybe you been mistaken?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y33989/

[Arlus]

4501845020

Got my preliminary results. Looks like I will either end up as L-L1307* or form a new subclade.

[thejkhan]

4501845020

Got my preliminary results. Looks like I will either end up as L-L1307* or form a new subclade.

There are actually 3 possibilities, as you will end up splitting one of these 3 clades: L-L1307, L-BY198125, L-Y44848.

[Arlus]

There's actually 3 possibilities, as you will end up splitting one of these 3 clades: L-L1307, L-BY198125, L-Y44848.

Thanks! What does that 'i' indicate? In my case hovering over it shows - (=L-L1307*, L-Y44848).

[thejkhan]

Thanks! What does that 'i' indicate? In my case hovering over it shows - (=L-L1307, L-Y44848).

I think it means (entirely my guess, so take it with a grain of salt) positive for L1307 and no-call for Y44848.

You can go to your yfull home page and check whether you are really no-call for Y44848.

[Arlus]

I think it means (entirely my guess, so take it with a grain of salt) positive for L1307 and no-call for Y44848.

You can go to your yfull home page and check whether you are really no-call for Y44848.

Ok. I should have my SNP results after a few weeks perhaps?

[thejkhan]

Ok. I should have my SNP results after a few weeks perhaps?

With the "live" option you will perhaps see some changes to the tree in a week.

[Arlus]

*delete*

[parasar]

Thanks! What does that 'i' indicate? In my case hovering over it shows - (=L-L1307*, L-Y44848).

Looks like that you are Y44848 positive, but they have not placed you on that branch as yet.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y44848/

[parasar]

There is a new sample (a Syrian individual) on Yfull, apparently with a pre L-1307 subclade!
40240

Is there a South Korean sample there too?

[Arlus]

Looks like that you are Y44848 positive, but they have not placed you on that branch as yet.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y44848/

Yes, I checked with raw data browser. I am sharing just 2 SNPs within Y44848 subclade, probably a very early split.

[Arlus]

Is there a South Korean sample there too?

Yes, there is a new sample (beginning with 'SRS')from some study. Are those 'SRS' samples from some south korean paper?

[thejkhan]

Yes, there is a new sample (beginning with 'SRS')from some study. Are those 'SRS' samples from some south korean paper?

No the new SRS samples are from Turkey (but not necessarily of Turk ethnicity).

[Arlus]

Full and updated stats-
45054450554505645057

[Arlus]

There is a new sample (a Syrian individual) on Yfull, apparently with a pre L-1307 subclade!
40240

That Syrian sample and the sample from the Turkish study have been placed under a new pre/para-L1307 subclade(Yfull live tree) with a large number of SNPs unique to them. 45123

[Arlus]

In the live tree they have placed me under L1307* and removed the 2 SNPs, which I share with 2 Y44848 samples, from the Y44848 subclade.
I guess this means that those are independently developed mutations rather than actual shared SNPs?
I have no STR matches as of now, though manual verification of some STRs remains to be done.
I have relatively higher number of novel SNPs (104 high quality ones), which probably makes it impossible for my subclade to be related to a relatively younger subclade (Y44848's age is estimated to be around 7900 ybp).
What is the possible origin of my subclade? Is it a minor IVC lineage?

[Arlus]

45814
Yfull has made a new subclade based on the 2 SNPs I share with those Bahraini samples. They have given an estimated age of 7800 ybp and estimated TMRCA of 4100ybp. This is probably one of the less successful bottlenecks under L1307.
What can be said about its probable origin?

[BMG]

45814
Yfull has made a new subclade based on the 2 SNPs I share with those Bahraini samples. They have given an estimated age of 7800 ybp and estimated TMRCA of 4100ybp. This is probably one of the less successful bottlenecks under L1307.
What can be said about its probable origin?

Now all 4 lines under L1307 has at least an indian sample.

[J-Live]

I recently came across a person with a Saudi Bedouin father who belongs to this haplogroup. I've forgotten the tribe name. I thought it was interesting as I did not think it was possible for a Bedouin to belong to this clade.

[Arlus]

Looks like they hadn't taken my novel SNPs into account. In the new Ytree update they have updated the TMRCA to 7300ybp.

[Arlus]

https://yfull.com/tree/L-Y62624/

https://yfull.com/live/tree/L-Y62624/
This is the subclade with an Irula sample. Until recently it had the Irula sample and a Pakistani Punjabi sample under it. A new Kuwaiti sample has been added, presumably sometime back, and on live tree both Irula and the Kuwaiti sample have formed a new subclade.

[Sapporo]

https://yfull.com/live/tree/L-M2385/

Lots of L1a2 traction relatively close to myself.

The Sandhu Jatt Sikh 1500 years apart from my clade formed a new subclade on 11/26 with a new Punjabi sample.

L-FTA31729 FTA31729 2021-11-26

Another new sample (likely Punjabi) formed between me and the Sandhu too. It is for kit YF93173 under L-FGC93956.

On a separate note, I had a half Punjabi Brahmin (paternally) and half Khatri Sood (maternally) message me on Yfull suggesting a close match. Seems like he was off. We are distant. He shares a subclade with the HGDP 258 Kurram Pashtun who scores like a Khatri or even Jatt Sikh. Most likely assimilated Dard or Hindko. His Yfull kit is YF93500.