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Benlevi
03-16-2018, 12:19 AM
Hi all,

Sorry, newb here. I assume R-L48 is referred to using an alternative nomenclature that I haven’t yet found, but I’m just curious how to interpret it, and/or find the appropriate sub-forum.... Thoughts?

PS Oddy, I’m full Ashkenazi Jewish

Eihwaz
03-16-2018, 02:04 AM
R-L48 is one of those subclades of R-U106, which is one of those big "Germanic" subclades. I would assume that in your case, it was from a medieval Germanic person that married a Jew, or from a Longobard who contributed to a Northern Italian ancestor's genome. There is evidence for a bit of medieval Western/Central European admixture in many Ashkenazi Jews (my parents and I both score fairly high "French" in Eurogenes k36, for instance). I know that there are some I2a2a2 subclades among Ashkenazi Jews, as well, which is also a "Germanic" marker.

That's all I know about that, though, and I leave the table open to people who are more familiar with deep R1b clades. There is definitely a thead for R-L48 in this section.

Bollox79
03-16-2018, 04:43 AM
Hi all,

Sorry, newb here. I assume R-L48 is referred to using an alternative nomenclature that I haven’t yet found, but I’m just curious how to interpret it, and/or find the appropriate sub-forum.... Thoughts?

PS Oddy, I’m full Ashkenazi Jewish

If you are U106 and L48 make sure to join the U106 DNA project at FTDNA and also the U106 yahoo group... U106 has several sub groups with overall distributions... L48 is one of the more Northern/Germanic groups (as it's been found in two Longobard men at Szolad cemetery), but Z156 is group under U106 is a more "Southern" and more common along the Rhine, Low Countries, and the Isles so far... Z156 (and several SNPs downstream of Z156) was found in the bronze age remains in the Unetice culture from an EBA cemetery near Prague. Unetice eventually became Tumulus and then Urnfield...

Cofgene
03-16-2018, 11:45 AM
The R-U106 project is at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background The only known Jewish cluster present under R-L48 is represented by http://mykindred.com/L47x/ The Ivanhoe Cluster. The next expected sale day at FTDNA will be DNA Day. Contact the project admins for advice on the best options for testing and refining your haplogroup to see what the situation is with respect to your Jewish background. The project does utilize whole genome results from other firms such as FullGenomes or YSEQ.NET if you want to find out everything in one test.

Athiudisc
03-16-2018, 11:51 AM
PS Oddy, I’m full Ashkenazi Jewish

There's a whole group of Jewish U106s under L47, IIRC. Ivanhoe cluster, as it's called. I know you're a step before that (L48), but it might interest you.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 06:20 AM
There is definitely a thead for R-L48 in this section.

Interesting! Please excuse my ignorance, but do you know how I would go about finding it here on the forum? I’m new and don’t seem so adept at successfully searching and navigating threads, yet.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 06:27 AM
If you are U106 and L48 make sure to join the U106 DNA project at FTDNA

OK, thanks for the tip. Can I do this even though I got my results from 23andMe, not FTDNA? Apologies for my ignorance.


L48 is one of the more Northern/Germanic groups (as it's been found in two Longobard men at Szolad cemetery), but Z156 is group under U106 is a more "Southern" and more common along the Rhine, Low Countries, and the Isles so far...

Interesting. What’s the relationship between Z156 and L48 (if any)?

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 06:39 AM
R-L48 is one of those subclades of R-U106, which is one of those big "Germanic" subclades.

I see... do you have any references for this where I could do some further reading?


I would assume that in your case, it was from a medieval Germanic person that married a Jew

Given that we’re supposedly “Levis,” my (naive) assumption would be that it was the product of one of numerous rapes said to have occurred during my ancestors’ time spent in medieval Central Europe.. or, alternatively, during later years in Poland/Ukraine (eg Khmelnytskyi massacres). That said, my autosomal DNA is very much Ashkenazi Jewish, and my paternal side is very phenotypically Jewish, so my guess is that the *ahem* “marriage” (ie likely extramarital gene exchange) occurred in the relatively distant past.


...or from a Longobard who contributed to a Northern Italian ancestor's genome.

Certainly seems possible, yes.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 06:52 AM
The R-U106 project is at (URL omitted). The only known Jewish cluster present under R-L48 is represented by (URL omitted), The Ivanhoe Cluster. The next expected sale day at FTDNA will be DNA Day. Contact the project admins for advice on the best options for testing and refining your haplogroup to see what the situation is with respect to your Jewish background. The project does utilize whole genome results from other firms such as FullGenomes or YSEQ [dot] NET if you want to find out everything in one test.

Thanks for this. Please excuse my ignorance, but I’m not entirely sure what it is you’re referencing, there. All I’ve managed to do so far is have my sample sequenced (perhaps crudely?) using 23andMe, and then also ran that 23andMe-output kit through various GedMatch algorithms to see what turns up (always very much Ashkenazi Jewish).

Is there any chance that my true Y chromosome marker is indeed actually downstream from R-L48 (eg L47x, etc.), or would that have shown up in the 23andMe results...?

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 06:57 AM
There's a whole group of Jewish U106s under L47, IIRC. Ivanhoe cluster, as it's called. I know you're a step before that (L48), but it might interest you.

That is indeed interesting, thank you. Bizarrely, Ivanhoe seems to be a Sephardic rather than Ashkenazi lineage, which is surprising. That said, I don’t know if there’s even a possibility I fall within that cluster, as all 23andMe said was “R-L48.” I don’t know if they lack the tools for identifying further sub-clade refinement (if I phrased that right), or if I’m simply “only” L48, full stop.

Any ideas?

Cofgene
03-17-2018, 10:15 AM
Thanks for this. Please excuse my ignorance, but I’m not entirely sure what it is you’re referencing, there. All I’ve managed to do so far is have my sample sequenced (perhaps crudely?) using 23andMe, and then also ran that 23andMe-output kit through various GedMatch algorithms to see what turns up (always very much Ashkenazi Jewish).

Is there any chance that my true Y chromosome marker is indeed actually downstream from R-L48 (eg L47x, etc.), or would that have shown up in the 23andMe results...?

This is the project which would provide you with additional information if you elect to do further testing on your paternal y-DNA line. 23andMe's results come off of a 9 year old reference. Since then a many, many more haplogroups have been identified. For some of them like the ivanhoe cluster, proposals for movements within the last 2000 years are proposed.

with results like 23andMe it varies with the chip used as to whether a provided haplogroup call is correct. It may be missing calls which can further refine it or it may be picking up a 2nd appearance of the SNP L48. The results are somewhat hit or miss depending on the chip used and the quality of the sample. Make sure you have the other calls, like U106, above L48 to know that 23andMe assigned your result to the correct location.

Testing at FamilyTreeDNA will help confirm that R-L48 is correct. It would also open up the effort to identify and flesh out a new Ashkenazi haplogroup location.

03-17-2018, 11:21 AM
Well my cousin is L-48 result from 23andme, maybe this is how deep they test, and he is from S Wales, and so is his male line, also is surname is Welsh, but this Haplogroup is predominantly a NW Germanic Haplogroup, I think since R1b is so well defined I think almost certainly you will be on a subclade downstream of L-48. Then you have a few options to explore with Next Gen seq companies, one of the most popular is ftdna, if you go much deeper and eventually get a BAM file you can upload it to Yfull, which will show you where your subclade clusters on the tree Good luck.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 01:38 PM
if you go much deeper and eventually get a BAM file you can upload it to Yfull, which will show you where your subclade clusters on the tree Good luck.

Thanks for the tip! I have to admit, I don’t know what a BAM file is, nor “Yfull.” Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 01:58 PM
... 23andMe's results come off of a 9 year old reference. Since then a many, many more haplogroups have been identified. For some of them like the ivanhoe cluster, proposals for movements within the last 2000 years are proposed.

Ah, I see, thank you. So am I interpreting you correctly to hear that I may well in fact be somewhere downstream from L48, it’s just that 23andMe’s “palate” of Ydna matches is relatively unrefined, lacking newer subclades?


...with results like 23andMe it varies with the chip used as to whether a provided haplogroup call is correct. It may be missing calls which can further refine it or it may be picking up a 2nd appearance of the SNP L48. The results are somewhat hit or miss depending on the chip used and the quality of the sample. Make sure you have the other calls, like U106, above L48 to know that 23andMe assigned your result to the correct location.

Thanks for this. To be honest, I have to admit I have no idea how the technology actually works (nor its potential pitfalls), so I don’t actually understand what you’re saying here. How far off could 23andMe be? What is a “call” and how do I check my “other calls” to ensure I’ve been assigned to the correct location, as you say? How do I know what chip was used and how good my sample quality could have been? What is a “2nd appearance” of a SNP (eg., of L48)?

Apologies for my ignorance. Any suggestions for how / where I could better educate myself regarding the relevant moving parts, here?


Testing at FamilyTreeDNA will help confirm that R-L48 is correct. It would also open up the effort to identify and flesh out a new Ashkenazi haplogroup location.

That sounds appealing. FTDNA does seem remarkably pricey, though. I also have no idea which of the many Y-DNA testing options they offer is the best for these purposes. It seems to range from 37, to 111 markers. What does this mean in practical terms, regarding understanding Y chromosomal provenance? Will more markers enable me to place myself on more refined subclades? ... They seem to have a St Pattys Day sale on, so maybe now’s as good a time as DNA Day to purchase?

Enlightening thoughts on any/all of the above would be most welcome.

Thank you for your insight!

03-17-2018, 02:26 PM
Thanks for the tip! I have to admit, I don’t know what a BAM file is, nor “Yfull.” Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

There is allot of food for thought for you to digest here, and to research. Decide what your objectives are, coupled that with how much money you are prepared to spend, as Next Gen Seq is not cheap.

Benlevi
03-17-2018, 07:22 PM
There is allot of food for thought for you to digest here, and to research. Decide what your objectives are, coupled that with how much money you are prepared to spend, as Next Gen Seq is not cheap.

Good to know. ... Any suggested links to help get some perspective on what’s gained with (various kinds of) additional testing?

R. Walker
09-17-2018, 10:34 PM
I also have an R-U106, L48 question. My cousin Fred Z. (Kit #N47901) has tested R-U106 + and L 48+, and L47-, on FTDNA. He is also listed as L-48 on his autosomal test at 23and Me. Fred's (and my) grandfather was born out of wedlock in Switzerland, Canton Berne in the lower Jura mountains in 1856. He was given his mother's family surname Z-------. In the past 11 years I have not been able to find a match in the 'Z' family, until recently when contacted by a 'Z' family member living in Australia. He is only on 23andMe, so I can't compare y chromosomes, but he has the same haplogroup L48, as cousin Fred. (In the autosomal matching these 'Z' person also matches me and my brother as possible 3rd-4th cousins.) And his family originates in the same area of Switzerland in the Bernese Oberland as our ancestors. And, the one 'Z' family descendant here in the US, our real 3rd cousin, BZ has an (old) yDNA designation on 23&Me of R1b1b2a1a1d*. This is what cousin Fred's designation was on 23&me ages ago before the update. I expected that my cousin Fred would have an entirely different y designation from the other male 'Z' family members. I don't know how frequent this haplogroup is in Switzerland, but according to the list on FTDNA there is at least one L48+ (unnamed) in Canton Berne, and a few others throughout Switzerland. But it looks like our grandfather's father was someone closely related. Any comments?

Wing Genealogist
09-18-2018, 06:43 PM
I also have an R-U106, L48 question. My cousin Fred Z. (Kit #N47901) has tested R-U106 + and L 48+, and L47-, on FTDNA. He is also listed as L-48 on his autosomal test at 23and Me. Fred's (and my) grandfather was born out of wedlock in Switzerland, Canton Berne in the lower Jura mountains in 1856. He was given his mother's family surname Z-------. In the past 11 years I have not been able to find a match in the 'Z' family, until recently when contacted by a 'Z' family member living in Australia. He is only on 23andMe, so I can't compare y chromosomes, but he has the same haplogroup L48, as cousin Fred. (In the autosomal matching these 'Z' person also matches me and my brother as possible 3rd-4th cousins.) And his family originates in the same area of Switzerland in the Bernese Oberland as our ancestors. And, the one 'Z' family descendant here in the US, our real 3rd cousin, BZ has an (old) yDNA designation on 23&Me of R1b1b2a1a1d*. This is what cousin Fred's designation was on 23&me ages ago before the update. I expected that my cousin Fred would have an entirely different y designation from the other male 'Z' family members. I don't know how frequent this haplogroup is in Switzerland, but according to the list on FTDNA there is at least one L48+ (unnamed) in Canton Berne, and a few others throughout Switzerland. But it looks like our grandfather's father was someone closely related. Any comments?

Roughly half of folks who are U106+ are also L48+, so L48 covers a LOT of territory. I would suspect that L48 is relatively common in Switzerland. I believe the biggest issue is simply the fact that not a lot of Swiss folks have done Y-DNA SNP testing.

MacUalraig
10-12-2018, 09:31 AM
I now have three R-L48 matches at 23andme out of the 14 males with all 4 UK gps. All three have surnames which peak in YKS/LIN. It isn't a part of the tree I've looked at much, I only have one Kennedy down that way who got a terminal SNP of A656 (off the YSEQ R-L48 panel).

anthGdJ
01-26-2020, 12:39 PM
Well my cousin is L-48 result from 23andme, maybe this is how deep they test, and he is from S Wales, and so is his male line, also is surname is Welsh, but this Haplogroup is predominantly a NW Germanic Haplogroup, I think since R1b is so well defined I think almost certainly you will be on a subclade downstream of L-48. Then you have a few options to explore with Next Gen seq companies, one of the most popular is ftdna, if you go much deeper and eventually get a BAM file you can upload it to Yfull, which will show you where your subclade clusters on the tree Good luck.

Interesting, I'm R1b L-48, and from South Wales, family surname is Jones, I'd be interested to know, is his surname Jones?
I'd be very interested to hear anything about other L-48 people from South Wales.
It's a bit confusing, as it seems to be much more related to Germanic groups, being part of U-106.. I thought I had a Welsh male line going back a very long time.
I got it from 23andme, but the Y-DNA doesn't seem compatible with ftdna.. I did the autosomal transfer with them, but their Y-DNA options aren't available without doing another test.. I'm not sure I want to spend another £100.

dosas
01-26-2020, 01:36 PM
23andme classifies me as a generic R-L23, obviously my terminal clade is way further downstream.

I wouldn't put too much stock into it, their results are similar to what you would get from one of those software extractors, they probably used one themselves. You need to test properly in order to discover your terminal clade.