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rms2
04-05-2018, 11:08 PM
I tend to think that those Latvian HG P297's came up from Russia rather than from the southwest. At least one of them, Zvej25, belonged to the Narva culture. Narva stemmed from Kunda, and Kunda stemmed from Swiderian. I won't pretend to be thoroughly familiar with those cultures (perhaps alan knows more about them), but they extended from the Baltic eastward into northern Russia.

I am wondering what came after the Mesolithic, however. The big Neolithic culture in that region was Funnel Beaker (*TRB*). I could be behind the times, but I know of only two y-dna results from TRB: SALZ4, which was G2a2a, and I0172, which was I2a1b1a. From what I have read about TRB, it was a combination of Neolithic farmers who pushed up from the south and local HG's. Given that description, those two results, G2a2a and I2a1b1a, sound about right. Of course, I guess there could be some R1b-L51 lurking in TRB that we don't know about. That doesn't seem likely to me, but we won't know until we get some more TRB dna.

TRB's culture, burial rites, etc., were thoroughly Neolithic farmer style and nothing like Kurgan Bell Beaker.

rms2
04-05-2018, 11:35 PM
I tend to think that those Latvian HG P297's came up from Russia rather than from the southwest. At least one of them, Zvej25, belonged to the Narva culture. Narva stemmed from Kunda, and Kunda stemmed from Swiderian. I won't pretend to be thoroughly familiar with those cultures (perhaps alan knows more about them), but they extended from the Baltic eastward into northern Russia.

I am wondering what came after the Mesolithic, however. The big Neolithic culture in that region was Funnel Beaker (*TRB*). I could be behind the times, but I know of only two y-dna results from TRB: SALZ4, which was G2a2a, and I0172, which was I2a1b1a. From what I have read about TRB, it was a combination of Neolithic farmers who pushed up from the south and local HG's. Given that description, those two results, G2a2a and I2a1b1a, sound about right. Of course, I guess there could be some R1b-L51 lurking in TRB that we don't know about. That doesn't seem likely to me, but we won't know until we get some more TRB dna.

TRB's culture, burial rites, etc., were thoroughly Neolithic farmer style and nothing like Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Sorry to keep jabbering, but what if the descendants of those Latvian HG's went east or southeast rather than some other direction? That would explain why no R1b has been found in TRB, and why R1b-P297 shows up on the steppe later as R1b-L23. R1b-P297 is also fairly scarce in modern Latvia.

Of course, I think that just means the descendants of those Latvian HG's went back to where their ancestors came from, but even if their ancestors came from the west to begin with, obviously P297 ended up on the steppe fairly early.

ADW_1981
04-06-2018, 12:21 AM
That's exactly what I am suggesting based on the available evidence! The oldest R1b-P297 the ancestor of R1b-M269 is found in Latvian Hunter Gatherers dated to 9000+ ybp. The oldest R1b-pre-P297 is Villabruna found in Northeast Italy. The way I see it, The R1b-P297 folks migrated there from the Southwest.


We have enough data from Iberia and GAC to suggest M269+ did not originate in either region. The other datapoints suggest an eastern origin of M269+, especially in tandem with the brother M73/M478+. Southern Russia, on the northern side of the Caucasus mountains is not tested for aDNA insofar as we know but it could be argued as a crossroads for distribution of L23. The eastern side, south through Azerbaijan is no doubt how Z2103 was transmitted north to south.

If you are correct in that the dates are all wrong, all the more reason why M269+ refuged in southern Russia (on north side of Caucasus, assuming it was that old, but it's probably a stretch) Several other studies have correctly pointed out that R1b is nearly non-existant in the Caucasus populations with the exception of Armenians, and the aDNA supports that, as well as data from the early Zagros cultures.

Táltos
04-06-2018, 02:33 AM
Please remain on topic, and avoid personalization of discussions. Thank you.

alan
04-08-2018, 05:17 PM
I don’t personality ‘need’ P297 to be anywhere in particular 14000-5000BC. The main thing I am certain of is that L23 was in the zone and had a major in the formation of PIE c 4500-3000BC. The probability that it was just chance that 2 of the 3 y lines who were the main drivers of steppe genes west c 3000-2500 BC were L23 derivatives is very remote indeed.

As for the deeper time aspect of L23, I am not a primordialist who need to have the y line on the steppe from the Palaeolithic or Mesolithic (though overall the evidence leans that way). I can’t rule out the P297 was spread over a vast area from the Baltic to Iran as it’s extremely old and two Dryas events happened after the SNP which could well have scattered it. But that is not really relevant. Only L23 derivatives (primarily Z2103 and L11) have ever been claimed to be intimately linked with the spread of IE and ancient DNA has confirmed that they are 2 out of 3 of the spreaders of steppe genenes west

rms2
04-08-2018, 11:54 PM
Before Kurgan Bell Beaker arrived in central and western Europe in the mid-3rd millennium BC, there was no R1b-L11 or steppe dna there. Other y-dna haplogroups prevailed among Neolithic farmers and hunter-gatherers-gone-Neolithic-farmer, and there was no steppe dna. It was all EEF and WHG.

With the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, all that changed. R1b-L11 came to be the most frequent y-dna haplogroup. With it, steppe dna and Indo-European languages spread throughout central and western Europe.

We see in mid-3rd millennium Britain a microcosm of what occurred elsewhere in Europe.

alan
04-09-2018, 07:39 PM
Slightly off topic but there was an ingenious reader’s letter in the latest British Archaeology magazine where the contributor suggests the beaker wrist guards related to dagger fighting and were used to protect the wrist during the classic defence against other dagger attackers where you grab the wrist of the attachers dagger hand and in doing so put your own wrist at risk. I actually think that is a brilliant bit of thinking

Dewsloth
04-09-2018, 07:54 PM
Slightly off topic but there was an ingenious reader’s letter in the latest British Archaeology magazine where the contributor suggests the beaker wrist guards related to dagger fighting and were used to protect the wrist during the classic defence against other dagger attackers where you grab the wrist of the attachers dagger hand and in doing so put your own wrist at risk. I actually think that is a brilliant bit of thinking

Maybe it was a multitool? A handy flat stone makes a good "hone" to retouch soft metal dagger edges, too.

alan
04-09-2018, 08:01 PM
Maybe it was a multitool? A handy flat stone makes a good "hone" to retouch soft metal dagger edges, too.

That would have left clear traces though. I like the idea of it being related to dagger fighting because it explains the use of a material that could not be pierced by a dagger whereas it’s an odd choice for an archery wrist guard because thin leather would do just as good a job.

alan
04-09-2018, 08:05 PM
Slightly off topic but there was an ingenious reader’s letter in the latest British Archaeology magazine where the contributor suggests the beaker wrist guards related to dagger fighting and were used to protect the wrist during the classic defence against other dagger attackers where you grab the wrist of the attachers dagger hand and in doing so put your own wrist at risk. I actually think that is a brilliant bit of thinking

Another arguement for it being a wrist guard against daggers is that shields do not appear until after the beaker phase - probably in response to the growth in longer stabbing weapons like longer daggers, rapiers etc

alan
04-09-2018, 08:21 PM
BTW the same edition of British Archaeology has a piece about the new DNA evidence. it seems to lean toward the idea that the beaker pot in its specific style did come from Iberia and was adopted by elements in the CW zone through contact but little gene flow. Obviously that is only a broad brush observation from a non geneticist. It also makes the interesting observation that, in Britain, the beaker groups using maritime beaker pottery were equally steppic in genetic terms. So the idea that different beaker pot traditions in Britain could indicate radically different origin points on the continent (with Maritime representing western Atlantic routes) is now shown to be untrue. Pottery styles obviously spread with only the most tiny genetic impact. My guess is pottery styles probably spread 2nd hand via localised interface groups who absorbed the small amount of genes of a moving female wife (and potter) then it was copied as a status symbol by other local women and spread from the interface zone into the core without the genes of the original exotic wife.

TigerMW
04-09-2018, 09:46 PM
.... in Britain, the beaker groups using maritime beaker pottery were equally steppic in genetic terms. So the idea that different beaker pot traditions in Britain could indicate radically different origin points on the continent (with Maritime representing western Atlantic routes) is now shown to be untrue.

I am confused a little bit by the different terminology on regional Beaker groups. We have the "Iberian" Bell Beakers also considered as the "Western" (at least early Western) Bell Beakers. We also have the "Maritime" Bell Beakers which I assumed were an outgrowth of the original "Iberian" Bell Beakers. Is that fair?
If so, it makes the Amorican Peninsula all the more interesting as well as the lesser L21 subclades found along northern Iberia which could relate to the old Tin Trail. Timing is everything.

rms2
04-09-2018, 10:15 PM
BTW the same edition of British Archaeology has a piece about the new DNA evidence. it seems to lean toward the idea that the beaker pot in its specific style did come from Iberia and was adopted by elements in the CW zone . . .

I'm no expert, but I have my doubts about that. I think it more likely that the Neolithic Iberians copied CW beakers.

razyn
04-09-2018, 10:48 PM
I think it more likely that the Neolithic Iberians copied CW beakers.

Or something like that. Anyway, Jeunesse needs to be recalled, as well as Gimbutas. Older assumptions are not necessarily the correct ones. The Christian Jeunesse essay ("... Deconstruction") has been kicking around for three years, now -- longer than most of the new aDNA evidence that suggests he may have been right. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=75237&viewfull=1#post75237

rms2
04-09-2018, 10:59 PM
I think it likely that Neolithic Iberians picked up on CW beaker styles in places like Grand Pressigny.

22573

R.Rocca
04-10-2018, 02:12 AM
In David Reich's new book, he states the following:

"This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along the with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe."

He does not use haplogroup names in the book, but it is obvious that he is referring to L23 as the "Y-chromosome type of steppe origin". Martiniano's and Olade's papers are referenced elsewhere, but the citation that Reich chose for the above statement is for "West Iberia; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory." meaning he must have more samples that back that up, especially from Portugal and/or NW Spain.

jdean
04-10-2018, 10:22 AM
He does not use haplogroup names in the book, but it is obvious that he is referring to L23 as the "Y-chromosome type of steppe origin". Martiniano's and Olade's papers are referenced elsewhere, but the citation that Reich chose for the above statement is for "West Iberia; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory." meaning he must have more samples that back that up, especially from Portugal and/or NW Spain.

What a tease !!!

rms2
04-10-2018, 11:44 AM
Makes you wonder what else he has in his unpublished results.

jdean
04-10-2018, 02:51 PM
Makes you wonder what else he has in his unpublished results.

He mentioned them a couple of years ago (in an interview I think), from memory he's got bags and bags of them : )

jdean
04-10-2018, 04:50 PM
He mentioned them a couple of years ago (in an interview I think), from memory he's got bags and bags of them : )

Found it, Ancient DNA and the new science of the human past (https://youtu.be/EfHGhWfxWoA?t=432)

R.Rocca
04-10-2018, 07:11 PM
Makes you wonder what else he has in his unpublished results.

On page 17, he has a graph that shows 711 published whole ancient genomes versus 3,748 total, which includes unpublished samples from the author’s lab! That is a lot of unpublished genomes.

rms2
04-10-2018, 10:48 PM
I wonder if any of those unpublished results are y-dna from Yamnaya in the Carpathian basin or on the Pontic steppe.

alan
04-11-2018, 12:28 AM
I am confused a little bit by the different terminology on regional Beaker groups. We have the "Iberian" Bell Beakers also considered as the "Western" (at least early Western) Bell Beakers. We also have the "Maritime" Bell Beakers which I assumed were an outgrowth of the original "Iberian" Bell Beakers. Is that fair?
If so, it makes the Amorican Peninsula all the more interesting as well as the lesser L21 subclades found along northern Iberia which could relate to the old Tin Trail. Timing is everything.

Yes that is about right that maritime beaker are seen as Iberian development but are seen along the Med, U.K. Atlantic France and in lesser numbers across the beaker world including groups in Sngland. From memory I think the English maritime beaker pot groups were on the south-central coast. I think your right to wonder about a Armorica. I personally think at least one strand of the beakers in England did not come directly from the Rhine mouth. There is a clear strand in early English beakers that includes a burial tradition of what look like large reusesble pits that a nuclear family maybe used for a few decades or even a couple of generations. They kind of make me think they are in the same tradition as the wedge tombs of the Irish beaker culture except done without stone. That is not to be confused with Neolithic collective burial. Now, that does not sound like classic Dutch beaker single burials with one body in a small pit. I am not sure of an exact parallel but I strongly suspect an origin somewhere on the interface between Rhenish groups and Brittany, possibly Normandy. I remember even in books written over 30 years ago that you could see that NW France was an overlap zone of influences from the Iberian Maritime beaker groups and Rhenish.

Another thing to consider is a subset of these P312 beaker people actually did metal prospecting and mining and that that element made it to rhe isles which was important for its early tin, gold and precocious Bronze use. They simply had to have come from areas where successful prospecting and mining took place. There are no such places in Northern and central Europe other than the Alps, central Germany and Brittany that those skills could have come from. Prehistoric copper prospectors tends to search uplands, rocky areas and cliffy coastal exposures.

rms2
04-11-2018, 12:42 AM
In general, however, British Kurgan Bell Beaker looks a lot like Netherlands Kurgan Bell Beaker, and both had even more steppe dna than central European Kurgan Bell Beaker. It certainly looks like the L21 portion came via the Lower Rhine.

jdean
04-11-2018, 08:18 AM
I wonder if any of those unpublished results are y-dna from Yamnaya in the Carpathian basin or on the Pontic steppe.

rozenfeld's already posted (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=377443&viewfull=1#post377443) about this in the Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News thread

Iron Age study targets British DNA mystery (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43712587)

presumably these samples are a significant part of the unreported aDNA set ?

I'm guessing the 1400 current aDNA samples David Reich mentions are those that are published, otherwise it doesn't tally with the nos. in his book.

Probably going to have to wait ages for this paper but it's going to be very interesting to see the difference in haplogroup frequency compared with today.

rms2
04-11-2018, 11:40 AM
The migration of people associated with the Beaker culture from continental Europe into Britain at the end of the Neolithic period (around 4,000 years ago) remains the most significant event to shape the genetics of subsequent populations on the island . . . But at some point after the Bronze Age, groups in the south-east appear to have mixed with a population similar to those Stonehenge builders who inhabited Britain before the Beakers arrived.

Most people from south-east Britain still trace most of their ancestry to the Beaker people, but the later mixing event had a bigger impact than Medieval Anglo-Saxon migrations - traditionally seen as the foundation point of English history.

Prof Reich said his team at Harvard currently had three working hypotheses to explain the result. While the Beakers replaced around 90% of the ancestry in Britain, it's possible that a pocket (or pockets) of Neolithic farmers held out in isolation somewhere for hundreds of years.

During the Iron Age (which began around 3,000 years ago), they mixed back in with the general population, diluting the Beakers' genetic background with a type of ancestry that's now stronger around the Mediterranean than in Northern or Central Europe.

Alternatively, the genetic data may be hinting at a separate migration from continental Europe during the Iron Age - perhaps one that brought Celtic languages into Britain.

The third possibility is that scholars have simply underestimated the genetic impact of the Roman occupation, which lasted in Britain from AD 43 until 410. Roman settlers from the Italian peninsula would have traced a large proportion of their ancestry to Neolithic farmers like those that inhabited Britain before the arrival of the Beaker people.


Option 3 makes the most sense to me. I've always thought people have underestimated the Roman impact, and it was greatest in SE Britain.

MitchellSince1893
04-11-2018, 12:01 PM
Based on the U152 distribution in England I tend to go with option 2 having the most impact followed by option 3.

rms2
04-11-2018, 12:04 PM
As I recall, the pre-Roman Conquest Iron Age Hinxton Celts were higher in steppe dna than modern people from SE England, and Hinxton is in SE England. See Dienekes' comments from a couple of years ago here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/05/british-celts-have-more-steppe-ancestry.html).

I think that tends to support option 3.

rms2
04-11-2018, 12:46 PM
Guess it's off topic to keep going on about Reich and what happened in SE Britain sometime in the Iron Age, but I was just poking around and found that the date for Hinxton 4, one of the Iron Age Celts from SE England, was c. A.D. 1. He had more steppe dna than most modern people from the same area of England, and that date was only 42 years before the Roman Conquest. That was not enough time for a major genetic impact before the Romans arrived, so, if Hinxton 4 was at all representative of people from SE Britain, then the change occurred after him. That really leaves only option 3, if the change occurred in time to show up in Iron Age bodies.

ADW_1981
04-11-2018, 01:11 PM
I think all of the above are wrong. Unlikely that the region closest to where new migrants would be coming from, would harbour pre-Beaker ancestry unless they have a more convincing argument. What was stopping something similar from happening in Ireland, Scotland and Wales? Why would this happen in England, who probably had more immigrants from the continent than any other region in the islands.
I suspect post-Saxon immigrants to England had additional Mediterranean ancestry via the French region, possibly movement from the Roman period to France via Italy and Iberia.

Top 5 with Eurogenes K13:

North_Atlantic 51.69
Baltic 24.11
West_Med 13.56
West_Asian 4.41
East_Med 3.21

English are pulled to the south (France) due to a higher portion of West Mediterranean ancestry than their fellow islanders in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Still lower Mediterranean than modern French though.

rms2
04-11-2018, 02:23 PM
Why would this happen in England? Because SE England is nice and flat and has the best farmland in Britain.

We know something happened after around A.D. 1, when Hinxton 4, one of the Iron Age Celts, died; that is, if he is at all representative of the people living in that region at the time, because he had more steppe dna than modern people from the same area.

The Romans came in just 42 years later. We know they brought a lot of people with them, and they controlled Britain, especially SE Britain, for nearly 400 years. I always found it hard to believe that they didn't breed with the locals. What is now SE England was the area of heaviest Roman settlement, where most of the great villas and largest Roman cities were.

I guess we'll find out, if Reich et al are able to compare the pre- and post-Roman populations of SE England.

Radboud
04-11-2018, 02:35 PM
For what it's worth, here are K15 results of an Iron Age individual from Melton, Yorkshire. Name= M1489 and this sample is dated 210 BC - 40 AD.

Pop England_IA
ID M1489
North_Sea 37.21
Atlantic 26.14
Baltic 9.85
Eastern_Euro 6.57
West_Med 9.84
West_Asian 3.24
East_Med 2.86
Red_Sea 0.02
South_Asian 1.62
Southeast_Asian 0.24
Siberian 0.86
Amerindian 0.27
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 1.27

MitchellSince1893
04-11-2018, 03:21 PM
Yes the Hinxton 4 high steppe dna doesn’t support option 2. I was mixing apples and oranges...I would expect Iron Age U152 arrivals to Britain to be higher in Steppe than the present population. SE England is the gateway into Britain from the south.
I would think Reich only listed those 3 options based on the dates of the samples...the reason a more recent 4th option isn’t mentioned. Based on Hinxton I would think option 3 is more likely.

rms2
04-11-2018, 05:17 PM
Yes the Hinxton 4 high steppe dna doesn’t support option 2. I was mixing apples and oranges...I would expect Iron Age U152 arrivals to Britain to be higher in Steppe than the present population. SE England is the gateway into Britain from the south.
I would think Reich only listed those 3 options based on the dates of the samples...the reason a more recent 4th option isn’t mentioned. Based on Hinxton I would think option 3 is more likely.

Of course, British Kurgan Bell Beaker was actually higher in steppe dna than central European Kurgan Bell Beaker. By the Iron Age, an added factor would be where the U152 was coming from. If it was coming from Italy or Gaul it would probably have been considerably lower in steppe dna than the locals.

alan
04-11-2018, 08:04 PM
In general, however, British Kurgan Bell Beaker looks a lot like Netherlands Kurgan Bell Beaker, and both had even more steppe dna than central European Kurgan Bell Beaker. It certainly looks like the L21 portion came via the Lower Rhine.

It think it came from/up the Rhine but some of it (I think the earliest group) May have moved west along the English channel coast of France before crossing. That’s just a guess based on some burial types but I think it’s quite plausible that prospectors might have explored the rocky coasts of northern France and may have made contact with coastal peoples with a strong tradition of maritime contact with the isles.

R.Rocca
04-12-2018, 02:44 AM
Based on prior ancient DNA examples, poster Michał has shown that YFull dates are about 15-30% younger than they should be.

Regarding the samples from the Hajji Firuz site, the authors already threw out sample I4243 because radiocarbon testing dated it to 2465-2286 cal BCE. The reason why it's relevant is because it was found in burial unit F11 which produced samples I4349 (5887-5724 cal BCE) and I4351 (6056-5894 cal BCE). Z2103+ sample I2327 is labeled as being from Phase F-G, which according to their classification scheme should be older than these other samples (Phase A3). Counter intuitively, they chose to label it with a younger age of 5900-5500 BCE. So obviously some caution is justified here.

Also, we know they labeled Latvian Hunter Gatherer sample I4628 as R1b1a1a2a1, which as per ISOGG is R-L51. Since the BAM file is available and shows no SNPs at the R1b1a1a2a1 level, then there is obviously something wrong with their haplogroup naming scheme. So yes, the spreadsheet they provided says that R1b1a1a2a2 has 3 derived reads, but we have no idea that their R1b1a1a2a2 is even correctly referencing Z2103.

So, lets wait a little longer for the radiocarbon dating and raw data to be released as either could alter I2327's significance to the overall L23 story.

One myth is already debunked as I2327 did indeed have Yamnaya ancestry at around 13.2% (per Generalissimo):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper&p=377716&viewfull=1#post377716

Chad Rohlfsen posted elsewhere that C14 testing on the sample failed so a new piece of bone was sent in:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper&p=377705&viewfull=1#post377705

rms2
04-13-2018, 10:32 PM
One myth is already debunked as I2327 did indeed have Yamnaya ancestry at around 13.2% (per Generalissimo):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper&p=377716&viewfull=1#post377716

Chad Rohlfsen posted elsewhere that C14 testing on the sample failed so a new piece of bone was sent in:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper&p=377705&viewfull=1#post377705

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that sample isn't as old as originally thought either.

jdean
04-13-2018, 11:26 PM
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that sample isn't as old as originally thought either.

Yep : )

rms2
04-15-2018, 12:32 PM
Have you all seen this article (https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/prehistoric-pop-culture-deciphering-the-dna-of-the-bell-beaker-complex.htm) from the May 2018 issue of Current Archaeology?

jdean
04-15-2018, 01:45 PM
Have you all seen this article (https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/prehistoric-pop-culture-deciphering-the-dna-of-the-bell-beaker-complex.htm) from the May 2018 issue of Current Archaeology?

Marvelous, just hoping there are copies still on the shelves : )

Net Down G5L
04-15-2018, 02:17 PM
rozenfeld's already posted (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=377443&viewfull=1#post377443) about this in the Genetic Genealogy and Ancient DNA in the News thread

Iron Age study targets British DNA mystery (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43712587)

presumably these samples are a significant part of the unreported aDNA set ?

I'm guessing the 1400 current aDNA samples David Reich mentions are those that are published, otherwise it doesn't tally with the nos. in his book.

Probably going to have to wait ages for this paper but it's going to be very interesting to see the difference in haplogroup frequency compared with today.

We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.

rms2
04-15-2018, 02:31 PM
Prehistoric pop culture: deciphering the DNA of the Bell Beaker Complex (https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/prehistoric-pop-culture-deciphering-the-dna-of-the-bell-beaker-complex.htm)

Overall, I think that is an excellent article, but I wonder about the following excerpt from it:



. . . the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas . . .


I pulled that out of the context of the complete sentence it was in, but that's the part I want to address. How sure are we "the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas"?

Are we even sure the beakers themselves originated in Iberia? And what about the rest of "the Beaker Complex"? How much of it was present in early Iberian Bell Beaker?

We know single burial in a pit under a round burial mound wasn't. That originated in the East.

What about archer's wristguards? Isn't that something else that came from the East?

What about burial with weapons, horse bones, etc.? Early Iberian Bell Beaker buried its dead in collective Neolithic tombs. Honestly, other than some sherds of beaker pottery, where in that practice is the rest of the Bell Beaker Complex?

I know this sounds like an argument, but I don't mean it to sound that way. I would honestly like someone to tell me what it is about Bell Beaker exactly that we can say for sure spread from Iberia to Central Europe.

R.Rocca
04-15-2018, 03:41 PM
Prehistoric pop culture: deciphering the DNA of the Bell Beaker Complex (https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/prehistoric-pop-culture-deciphering-the-dna-of-the-bell-beaker-complex.htm)

Overall, I think that is an excellent article, but I wonder about the following excerpt from it:



I pulled that out of the context of the complete sentence it was in, but that's the part I want to address. How sure are we "the Beaker Complex spread between Iberia and central Europe through the movement of ideas"?

Are we even sure the beakers themselves originated in Iberia? And what about the rest of "the Beaker Complex"? How much of it was present in early Iberian Bell Beaker?

We know single burial in a pit under a round burial mound wasn't. That originated in the East.

What about archer's wristguards? Isn't that something else that came from the East?

What about burial with weapons, horse bones, etc.? Early Iberian Bell Beaker buried its dead in collective Neolithic tombs. Honestly, other than some sherds of beaker pottery, where in that practice is the rest of the Bell Beaker Complex?

I know this sounds like an argument, but I don't mean it to sound that way. I would honestly like someone to tell me what it is about Bell Beaker exactly that we can say for sure spread from Iberia to Central Europe.

The Portuguese Proto-Bell Beaker Package as per H&H includes:

"... Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,
advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow
and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles
(discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps
also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."

Missing are the following:

"... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."

Interestingly, the use of cord to decorate pottery in early Iberian Bell Beaker is only seen in the north and the east and is missing in Portugual. Also this:

"In contrast to the maritime Beakers, the corded ones
(i.e., the AOO, AOC and CZM styles) are almost all
single vessels; rare and special finds, like the battle
axes. This strongly suggests that the earliest Beaker
ideology developed in embryo form in Portugal, but it
was enriched as it was transmitted to new areas."

jdean
04-15-2018, 03:53 PM
Missing are the following:

"... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."


Interesting, Alan mentioning an idea the other day that stone wrist guards could have been knife fighting paraphernalia.

jdean
04-15-2018, 03:58 PM
We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.

Something to look forward to in my dotage then : )

Shame your samples may not pass muster, fingers crossed !!

razyn
04-15-2018, 07:02 PM
Marvelous, just hoping there are copies still on the shelves : )

Here in Virginia, USA, the May issue hasn't arrived (at my neighborhood B&N bookstore). A manager checked the stock room, and said he'll call me when it's up.

The April issue (which they do have) has some very interesting British stuff too, but I specifically wanted the pictures associated with the new article citing Olalde et al, 2018.

rms2
04-15-2018, 07:59 PM
The Portuguese Proto-Bell Beaker Package as per H&H includes:

"... Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,
advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow
and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles
(discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps
also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."


Thanks. I wonder how sure we are of the dates of all those items.

Eventually, we find the entire Beaker package in Iberia courtesy of Kurgan Bell Beaker. I just wonder how much of it is of a piece with the very early earliest Iberian BB dates. All of the things you listed?



Missing are the following:

"... boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the
stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal),
and the type of tanged dagger that becomes
identified with Beaker grave groups later on. Therefore, it is useful to
speak of a ‘proto-Package’, in which core elements are
linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment,
and to which, at a later date, are added the wrist-guard,
tanged dagger, Palmela points, and spiral gold ornaments."

Interestingly, the use of cord to decorate pottery in early Iberian Bell Beaker is only seen in the north and the east and is missing in Portugual. Also this:

"In contrast to the maritime Beakers, the corded ones
(i.e., the AOO, AOC and CZM styles) are almost all
single vessels; rare and special finds, like the battle
axes. This strongly suggests that the earliest Beaker
ideology developed in embryo form in Portugal, but it
was enriched as it was transmitted to new areas."

Also missing were single graves in pits under round burial mounds, robust skeletons, some of which were brachycephalic, and, of course, R1b-M269.

I also wonder what kind of "ideology" is reflected in the few early Portuguese BB items you listed: "Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls,advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles(discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type."

It seems to me the single grave burial rite, with all its accouterments, is more reflective of a belief system.

rms2
04-15-2018, 08:34 PM
We will be in for a very long wait for this paper.

There are a few key UK based 'leading lights' pulling together new samples for this - but it is still early days yet. So yes, Reich has some UK samples already - but my understanding is that the bulk will be new samples still to be sourced. Bronze Age and Iron Age is the reputed focus but I am sure the Roman and post Roman period will also be featured.
Some of the post Roman samples from my Worth Matravers site have been passed on to the Reich lab (from a UK aDNA lab) for the project. Unfortunately my samples are very poor preservation so I still do not know if aDNA extraction will be successful.

So - it is certainly a VERY exciting project. But we may need years of patience before a paper emerges.

Sounds to me like Reich et al have a lot of irons (and coppers and bronzes) in the fire. I wish they would focus on the prequel to the Bell Beaker story and look into how Kurgan Bell Beaker came to be.

rms2
04-15-2018, 11:20 PM
So, what do we know about Kurgan Bell Beaker basically (meaning, without going into minute detail)? Well, it did not come out of Iberia. We know that. It had a lot of steppe dna and in many ways resembled Yamnaya.

Some (few) folks think the R1b-M269 element in it had its source in WHG-turned-Neolithic-farmers, possibly from Latvia, who married Corded Ware women, who, contrary to what usually happens with women who marry outside their culture, converted their husbands to patriarchy, horse-borne pastoralism and single grave burial rites (but distinct from Corded Ware rites).

Personally, I think Kurgan Bell Beaker was just an updated version of Yamnaya, a kind of Yamnaya 2.0 adapted for central and western Europe.

jdean
04-16-2018, 02:04 PM
Sounds to me like Reich et al have a lot of irons (and coppers and bronzes) in the fire. I wish they would focus on the prequel to the Bell Beaker story and look into how Kurgan Bell Beaker came to be.

And as if by magic : )

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/on-doorstep-of-india.html?showComment=1523861601872#c944952589638 126969

55 Ancient Eurasian Steppe selected Y haplogroups (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rja6ZyjQrz3UK7_HTagkzczoOFjwcXOGdNOm9FC3Rik/edit?usp=sharing)

Of course without the paper the results are of limited value, don't think I can remember BAM file coming out ahead of a paper before ?

A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB20658)

BTW for some odd reason the last link only seems to work with Firefox

ADW_1981
04-16-2018, 02:08 PM
And as if by magic : )

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/on-doorstep-of-india.html?showComment=1523861601872#c944952589638 126969

55 Ancient Eurasian Steppe selected Y haplogroups (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rja6ZyjQrz3UK7_HTagkzczoOFjwcXOGdNOm9FC3Rik/edit?usp=sharing)

Of course without the paper the results are of limited value, don't think I can remember BAM file coiming out ahead of a paper before ?

A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB20658)

BTW for some odd reason the last link only seams to work with Firefox

I noticed many J2 samples under L24, possibly part of the later Scythian graves? Only 1 U106 and 1 P312, possibly as far west as Hungary if we consider this "steppes" without any grave contexts. Lots of east Eurasian groups among the 55 Y samples.

ADW_1981
04-16-2018, 02:08 PM
Duplicate.

jdean
04-16-2018, 04:07 PM
I noticed many J2 samples under L24, possibly part of the later Scythian graves? Only 1 U106 and 1 P312, possibly as far west as Hungary if we consider this "steppes" without any grave contexts. Lots of east Eurasian groups among the 55 Y samples.

Yep, probably going to be from the Western edge but you never know.

P312 one looks to be L2 and the U106 fellow L47

kingjohn
04-16-2018, 04:32 PM
And as if by magic : )

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/on-doorstep-of-india.html?showComment=1523861601872#c944952589638 126969

55 Ancient Eurasian Steppe selected Y haplogroups (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rja6ZyjQrz3UK7_HTagkzczoOFjwcXOGdNOm9FC3Rik/edit?usp=sharing)

Of course without the paper the results are of limited value, don't think I can remember BAM file coming out ahead of a paper before ?

A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB20658)

BTW for some odd reason the last link only seems to work with Firefox

DA-65 - E-V22 thats a son of e-m78
DA19- E-Y31991 thats e-m123* without e-m34 mutation only 2 E :(
better than nothing lol ;)

p.s
i want to see genetiker anlaysis of this

J Man
04-16-2018, 05:14 PM
I am very much so looking forward to the ancient Eurasian Steppe paper coming out. Hopefully it comes out soon.

kingjohn
04-16-2018, 07:04 PM
only now i realize that those samples which we now have there y calls
are from the east scytian paper ....
first i thought they are from the recent south central asia paper :\
so thats why i was shocked that there are only 2 E .......
but now it is look logical
would have been helpfull to know who are those 2 E scytians sarmatians who know ...... :)

jdean
04-16-2018, 07:35 PM
only now i realize that those samples which we now have there y calls are from the east scytian paper ....

What makes you think this ?

kingjohn
04-16-2018, 07:41 PM
What makes you think this ?

my mistake :\
they are probably from this paper https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35890-Upcoming-paper-on-Eurasian-steppe-population-genetics

R.Rocca
04-16-2018, 07:47 PM
Interesting, Alan mentioning an idea the other day that stone wrist guards could have been knife fighting paraphernalia.

I remain a little skeptical. If they were guards against cuts, they’d be on both wrists. I had also seen an opinion that they might be for sharpening knives, but someone would have detected cut marks. Also, as someone who’s sharpened knives, I wouldn’t want to sharpen a knife anywhere near my wrists. I still think they were likely for bow string protection, or a ceremonial imitation of the like.

jdean
04-16-2018, 07:49 PM
my mistake :\
they are probably from this paper https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35890-Upcoming-paper-on-Eurasian-steppe-population-genetics

This is a link to where the data came from with an abstract for the missing paper, most odd : )

A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB20658)

For some reason or other this site only works properly with Firefox AFAICT


The Eurasian steppe, stretching about 8000 kilometres from Hungary and Romania in the west to Mongolia and western China in the east, is culturally among the most dynamic areas in the world. In the past four millennia, it has been variously dominated by Iranian-, Turkic- and Mongolic-speaking groups, and its temperate grasslands have been a crossroad for extensive movements of peoples, goods, and ideas between Europe, Siberia, South and East Asia. In order to understand the genetic history of the Eurasian steppe populations, we have sequenced 137 ancient genomes (~1X average coverage) spanning a 4000 years time series. We also genotyped 502 individuals from 16 contemporary self-reported ethnicities. We find evidence of a highly dynamic population history; the Iranian-speaking Scythians that dominated the Eurasian steppe throughout the Iron Age (~1 millennium BCE to common era) emerged following admixture between Late Bronze Age herders of western Eurasian descent and East Asian hunter-gatherers. The steppe nomads later further admixed with Turkic-speaking groups of East Asian ancestry that spread westward across the steppe in multiple waves: firstly, the Xiongnu confederations that emerged in Mongolia around the 3nd/2nd century BC; secondly, the Huns (4-5th century CE), infected with plague basal to the Justinian Y. pestis strain that destabilized the eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century CE; and thirdly during various short term dynasties, including the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan and his descendants. These recent historical events transformed the Eurasian steppe populations from being Indo-European speakers of largely western Eurasian ancestry to the present-day Turkic-speaking groups, primarily of East Asian ancestry.

kingjohn
04-16-2018, 07:55 PM
This is a link to where the data came from with an abstract for the missing paper, most odd : )

A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB20658)

For some reason or other this site only works properly with Firefox AFAICT

could it be they released the y calls
and the samples before the paper ? { wierd i know } :\

jdean
04-16-2018, 08:03 PM
could it be they released the y calls
and the samples before the paper ? { wierd i know } :\

I think they're going to let all the blogger and forum addicts thrash it out and then post a paper on use : )

ArmandoR1b
04-16-2018, 08:15 PM
Yep, probably going to be from the Western edge but you never know.

P312 one looks to be L2

That is what I found also. DA111 https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2374359

R.Rocca
04-16-2018, 08:55 PM
That is what I found also. DA111 https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2374359

Yeah, looks like he is L2+ FGC4183+ (whomever "he" is).

rms2
04-16-2018, 10:50 PM
Wish we knew something about the two L11's (the L2 and the U106). Where did they come from, how old are they, to what culture did they belong?

jdean
04-16-2018, 11:15 PM
Wish we knew something about the two L11's (the L2 and the U106). Where did they come from, how old are they, to what culture did they belong?

If somebody good with autosomal magic were to cast a gaze at them we might get reasonable guess as to how east/west they may have been, hint hint : )

Bollox79
04-16-2018, 11:53 PM
So DA119 is the U106er? Yeah I am curious to the context of the burial, culture etc!!

rms2
04-17-2018, 11:20 PM
So DA119 is the U106er? Yeah I am curious to the context of the burial, culture etc!!

I'm interested in both of the L11's. I'll probably be disappointed, but I'm hoping for something exciting and informative.

rms2
04-17-2018, 11:22 PM
Just for a moment let's suppose that L2 came from a Yamnaya kurgan in the Carpathian basin. What do you want to bet that someone will come along and say, "Well, yeah, L2 was in Yamnaya, but the rest of P312, they were Neolithic farmers who married Corded Ware women"?

I can hear it now.

jdean
04-17-2018, 11:48 PM
I'm interested in both of the L11's. I'll probably be disappointed, but I'm hoping for something exciting and informative.

Hopefully we'll found out soon, paper's coming out in Nature mid May according to a post on Molgen : )

ADW_1981
04-18-2018, 01:39 AM
Somehow some of the other samples have leaked, but I haven't heard anything on any of the R1b ones, or R1a for that matter.

R.Rocca
04-18-2018, 02:13 AM
Just for a moment let's suppose that L2 came from a Yamnaya kurgan in the Carpathian basin. What do you want to bet that someone will come along and say, "Well, yeah, L2 was in Yamnaya, but the rest of P312, they were Neolithic farmers who married Corded Ware women"?

I can hear it now.

The abstract says "the past four millennia" and "spanning a 4000 years time series", so I think even the oldest samples will be post-Yamnaya. It may tell us something about Bashkir R-L2 though.

jdean
04-18-2018, 07:51 AM
The abstract says "the past four millennia" and "spanning a 4000 years time series", so I think even the oldest samples will be post-Yamnaya. It may tell us something about Bashkir R-L2 though.

There's U106 turning in the Tatars of Tuymazinsky and the early Hungarians as well.

rms2
04-18-2018, 12:02 PM
The abstract says "the past four millennia" and "spanning a 4000 years time series", so I think even the oldest samples will be post-Yamnaya. It may tell us something about Bashkir R-L2 though.

You're probably right, but I wasn't sure what the cut off for the "4000 years time series" was. I doubt their samples really "span" the last 4000 years, with samples, for example, from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries of the modern era.

Here's what the abstract says:


In order to understand the genetic history of the Eurasian steppe populations, we have sequenced 137 ancient genomes (~1X average coverage) spanning a 4000 years time series.

Apparently, it's the 137 ancient samples that span a 4000-year period. So, what is the date of the latest ancient sample they have? If they mean a 4000-year time series dating back from that one, then everything depends on the date of their latest ancient sample. If, say, their latest "ancient" sample dates to 1000 A.D. (I regard that as medieval rather than ancient, but "ancient" seems to be used rather loosely in the world of genetics), then to span a period of 4000 years, they would have to have samples dating back to around 3000 BC.

But you're probably right. They probably meant just to around 2000 BC and weren't being too careful with the wording of the abstract.

R.Rocca
04-18-2018, 02:38 PM
You're probably right, but I wasn't sure what the cut off for the "4000 years time series" was. I doubt their samples really "span" the last 4000 years, with samples, for example, from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries of the modern era.

Here's what the abstract says:

Apparently, it's the 137 ancient samples that span a 4000-year period. So, what is the date of the latest ancient sample they have? If they mean a 4000-year time series dating back from that one, then everything depends on the date of their latest ancient sample. If, say, their latest "ancient" sample dates to 1000 A.D. (I regard that as medieval rather than ancient, but "ancient" seems to be used rather loosely in the world of genetics), then to span a period of 4000 years, they would have to have samples dating back to around 3000 BC.

But you're probably right. They probably meant just to around 2000 BC and weren't being too careful with the wording of the abstract.

You are right, if the youngest sample they have is from say 1000 AD, then we are talking about 3000 BC which would be the Yamnaya sweet spot. However, I think it is unlikely since they didn't mention Yamnaya (nor Catacomb) in the abstract and there are no R-Z2103 samples.

rms2
04-18-2018, 07:53 PM
I am surprised at no Z2103 in any of those cultures that were listed on that spreadsheet.

alan
04-18-2018, 10:20 PM
Ever notice there was a tribe with a name very like the Tectosages somewhere like the Kazakhstan according to Ptolemy? This sounds outlandish but they were also in Turkey. Bashkir U152?

rms2
04-20-2018, 12:01 AM
Ever notice there was a tribe with a name very like the Tectosages somewhere like the Kazakhstan according to Ptolemy? This sounds outlandish but they were also in Turkey. Bashkir U152?

If it wasn't you doing it, alan, I would groan, because that sounds like the usual stretch to make any sort of R1b essentially western.

Didn't the Tectosages make their living selling sausages? ;)

jdean
04-25-2018, 10:09 AM
Open Genomes has processed the autosomal BAM files for DA111 (P312) & DA119 (U106) which David and somebody called Matt have used to produce plots.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13nXi-uJhsmxF-l6ydoDq376b7FOOT3Rc/view

https://imgur.com/a/LUM13JK

Unsurprisingly, but a little disappointingly, they're both very Western looking.

Have to wait for the paper now in order to get the context.

Romilius
04-25-2018, 11:13 AM
Open Genomes has processed the autosomal BAM files for DA111 (P312) & DA119 (U106) which David and somebody called Matt have used to produce plots.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13nXi-uJhsmxF-l6ydoDq376b7FOOT3Rc/view

https://imgur.com/a/LUM13JK

Unsurprisingly, but a little disappointingly, they're both very Western looking.

Have to wait for the paper now in order to get the context.

Really intriguing... probably they are Beakers...

jdean
04-25-2018, 11:16 AM
Really intriguing... probably they are Beakers...

certainty a possibility going by these plots but we'll have to wait and see what C14 says, not to mention where they dug them up.

angscoire
04-25-2018, 11:32 AM
Open Genomes has processed the autosomal BAM files for DA111 (P312) & DA119 (U106) which David and somebody called Matt have used to produce plots.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13nXi-uJhsmxF-l6ydoDq376b7FOOT3Rc/view

https://imgur.com/a/LUM13JK

Unsurprisingly, but a little disappointingly, they're both very Western looking.

Have to wait for the paper now in order to get the context.

DA111 plots in almost exactly the same position as myself amongst other Central European Beakers (Bohemian , Bavarian and one Silesian) so yes it's likely another Beaker . Can't wait for the paper.

rms2
04-25-2018, 11:41 AM
They could be Bell Beaker, but one wonders why this new paper would test two more Bell Beaker men after all the BB from Olalde et al. Seems like overkill.

ArmandoR1b
04-25-2018, 12:37 PM
R.Rocca found DA111 to be L2+ FGC4183+ here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=380209&viewfull=1#post380209).

Is there a map of Bell Beaker L2? I thought I saw one but I can't find it.

ADW_1981
04-25-2018, 01:04 PM
Why would Beaker samples be in a Eurasian steppe paper though? Isn't the upper limit of the samples 2000 BC too?

R.Rocca
04-25-2018, 03:50 PM
They could be Bell Beaker, but one wonders why this new paper would test two more Bell Beaker men after all the BB from Olalde et al. Seems like overkill.

I agree. Given that the goal of the paper is to define the genetic history of the Eurasian steppe, I doubt these are Bell Beaker samples. Although they were steppe derived, Bell Beaker was not on the steppe.

R.Rocca
04-25-2018, 03:52 PM
R.Rocca found DA111 to be L2+ FGC4183+ here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=380209&viewfull=1#post380209).

Is there a map of Bell Beaker L2? I thought I saw one but I can't find it.

Here you go... https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&usp=sharing

ArmandoR1b
04-25-2018, 06:27 PM
Here you go... https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&usp=sharing

Thanks. I wonder what I2365 looks like in Oracle-4 through Eurogenes K13 and Eurogenes K15. Is there a Gedmatch kit for him? DA111 is Z302274

Romilius
04-25-2018, 07:32 PM
I agree. Given that the goal of the paper is to define the genetic history of the Eurasian steppe, I doubt these are Bell Beaker samples. Although they were steppe derived, Bell Beaker was not on the steppe.

Well... Carpathian basin? Western Yamna?

R.Rocca
04-25-2018, 07:38 PM
Well... Carpathian basin? Western Yamna?

If I recall correctly, there were no R-Z2103 samples in this dataset. If this indeed is the case, I don't think there are too many old samples from the Yamnaya time period. I'm hoping I'm wrong!

rms2
04-26-2018, 02:08 PM
I think that new Eurasian steppe paper will feature a lot of Iron Age samples and not much if anything from the 3rd millennium BC. It would not surprise me if those two L11 samples were from Ostrogoths who lived north of the Black Sea.

So, the paper will probably be interesting but not of much use to us who want to know how R1b-L11 got into Kurgan Bell Beaker.

ADW_1981
04-26-2018, 02:19 PM
Well... Carpathian basin? Western Yamna?

I was thinking Carpathian Basin region of the "steppes" earlier. It looks like it could be a blend of WHG/EHG + EEF. The CHG or west Asian element might be present but it's very low. They are closest to the modern Cornish population, but even that is quite distant. Maybe the Troy descent has some merit ;)

ADW_1981
04-26-2018, 04:00 PM
It looks like U4b3 and H6a1a are the maternal lines associated with thes U106/P312 samples. U4b3 seems a bit eastern having modern MDKA in : Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, Austria, Germany, and Hungary. H6a1a has turned up in Corded Ware and Srubnaya, so yes, the admixture results are odd to say the least.

daragon39
04-26-2018, 04:02 PM
I find it interesting how the mutations resulting in R-A410 and R-A412 seem to coincide with Charlemagne's conquest of the Saxons and Frisians.

rms2
04-26-2018, 05:24 PM
It looks like U4b3 and H6a1a are the maternal lines associated with thes U106/P312 samples. U4b3 seems a bit eastern having modern MDKA in : Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, Austria, Germany, and Hungary. H6a1a has turned up in Corded Ware and Srubnaya, so yes, the admixture results are odd to say the least.

I'm guessing that's a hint that these are not really old samples. Probably they're Iron Age. That's my guess. Could be wrong of course.

rms2
04-27-2018, 11:40 PM
I wonder why researchers have not tested any of the remains in the thousands of kurgans in the Carpathian basin and especially the Tisza River valley. Some sort of local government red tape?

jdean
05-02-2018, 02:07 PM
I'm probably reading this wrong so am stifling a whow

As reported at Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/open-analysis-thread-genetic-distance.html)


Hello. Today, the XIV Samara Archeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard. Khokhlov AA Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural region of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists. In his report, AA Khokhlov. introduced into scientific circulation until the unpublished data of the new Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both the Mariupol and Khvalyn features, and refers to the fourth quarter of the V millennium BC. All samples analyzed had a uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In the Khvalyn burial grounds (1 half of the 4th millennium BC), the anthropological material differs in a greater variety. In addition to the uraloid substratum, European broad-leaved and southern-European variants are recorded. To the game haplogroup R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to mito T2a1b, H2a1.

R.Rocca
05-02-2018, 02:21 PM
I'm probably reading this wrong so am stifling a whow

As reported at Eurogenes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/open-analysis-thread-genetic-distance.html)

This was my reply to that post:

R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a very downstream marker under U106 and not P312. It has also been found in a Swat valley sample. This is very, very unlikely IMO that we are talking about P312 or U106 based on just that marker. More than likely this is an SNP that exists in more than one subclade. Finding R1b1a2 would not be a surprise given that M269 is also the parent of R-Z2103.

jdean
05-02-2018, 02:27 PM
This was my reply to that post:

R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a very downstream marker under U106 and not P312. It has also been found in a Swat valley sample. This is very, very unlikely IMO that we are talking about P312 or U106 based on just that marker. More than likely this is an SNP that exists in more than one subclade. Finding R1b1a2 would not be a surprise given that M269 is also the parent of R-Z2103.

But aren't these the two R1b samples from the unpublished 'A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe' paper ?

and Yfull dates R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 (S21728) to 3900 yrs old

R.Rocca
05-02-2018, 02:47 PM
But aren't these the two R1b samples from the unpublished 'A population genomic history of the Eurasian steppe' paper ?

and Yfull dates R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 (S21728) to 3900 yrs old

I don't think they are. For sure one of them (DA111) was found to be P312 > U152 > L2 > FGC4183 so why not mention that? Besides, the post is also filled with errors as an R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 result is incompatible with P312.

jdean
05-02-2018, 02:53 PM
I don't think they are. For sure one of them (DA111) was found to be P312 > U152 > L2 > FGC4183 so why not mention that? Besides, the post is also filled with errors as an R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 result is incompatible with P312.

Agreed there are errors (probably in translation ?) but I think they are talking about a P312 and a U106, I think I remember DA119 was somewhere around that neck of the woods ?

R.Rocca
05-02-2018, 03:14 PM
Agreed there are errors (probably in translation ?) but I think they are talking about a P312 and a U106, when I looked at DA119 it was somewhere around that neck of the woods.

The DA111 and DA119 samples already resemble modern Central and Western European populations. Think of all of the population movements (ex. mixing with GAC) that happened thousands of years after AA Khokhlov samples which, are from V millennium BC. Also, the abstract for "A Population Genomic History of the Eurasian Steppe" states that the samples are from a 4000 years time series and includes samples as late as the Huns (4-5th century CE). Therefore, their oldest samples do not come close to being as old as the V millennium BC.

jdean
05-02-2018, 03:23 PM
I'm guessing of course but wouldn't the fifth millennium before current rather than BC make more sense ?, according to one of the Anthrogenica posts the L51 status isn't being disputed on Molgen, would have been helpful if he could have provided a link : )

Radboud
05-02-2018, 03:44 PM
The post looks kinda blurry, but I think that the author is speaking about 2 R1b samples. One of them is P312, the other one is a deep subclade of U106. I doubt this is correct,(Especially the R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a) but it would be already awesome if they are atleast positive for M269 and they might be even L51+.

razyn
05-02-2018, 04:02 PM
The discussion at Eurogenes seems to be current, but the post on Molgen that refers (in Russian) to a conference "today" was posted there Jan. 27th. So, not brand new info, at this point. http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,1114.msg407614.html and scroll down to « Ответ #1550 : 27 Январь 2018, 19:48:18 »

This is on a very general "archaeology news" thread that doesn't necessarily stay on a specific topic very long. I haven't slogged through the next 40 or so posts to see whether this one is revisited, corrected or whatever. My Russian skills, like most others, are steadily declining.

ADW_1981
05-02-2018, 04:24 PM
Translation suggests that the burial has features from Mariupol and Khvalynsk cultures, so it probably is as old as they say it is. I can't seem to locate the area on the map though. The fact that Khvalynsk already had contact with metallurgists (ie: copper beads) and has minor CHG suggests that the steppe was already in contact with the north Caucasus cultures already. These burials are likely the same.

jdean
05-03-2018, 12:01 AM
This appears to be the burial ground. Got to admit it's hard to see how P312, let alone S21728, could fit into this scenario ?

Catherine's Cape (Catherine's burial ground) (https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdostoyanieplaneti.ru%2F5255-katerininskiy-mys&edit-text=&act=url)

Ho hum

MitchellSince1893
05-03-2018, 01:08 AM
Looks to be 1000 to 1500 years too old to be P312.

Also in the translations it says "R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116)" which is an odd way to put it. If they meant P312 then shouldn't they have put R1b1a1a2a1a2 (ISOGG 2016-2018) or R1b1a2a1a2 (ISOGG 2013-2015) or R1b1a2a1a1b (2012)?

R1b1a2 = R-M269 which I'm guessing is what they meant. That would make more sense from an age perspective.

razyn
05-06-2018, 11:27 PM
Marvelous, just hoping there are copies still on the shelves : )

My neighborhood Barnes & Noble had roughly five copies, today (finally). They now have one fewer. It's the same text we've already seen online, but that's a very nicely illustrated magazine, and I'm glad to have scored a print copy. [Unlike the Nature stuff, which seems almost impossible to get w/o a very expensive subscription.] The cover headline is "The Beaker revolution: Britain's Bronze Age DNA decoded." At least one of the illustrations is (by permission) from Olalde et al, 2018. Very current information.

jdean
05-07-2018, 12:25 AM
My neighborhood Barnes & Noble had roughly five copies, today (finally). They now have one fewer. It's the same text we've already seen online, but that's a very nicely illustrated magazine, and I'm glad to have scored a print copy. [Unlike the Nature stuff, which seems almost impossible to get w/o a very expensive subscription.] The cover headline is "The Beaker revolution: Britain's Bronze Age DNA decoded." At least one of the illustrations is (by permission) from Olalde et al, 2018. Very current information.

I was able to pick up a copy from WH Smiths who are very good for providing lots of publications in the UK.

On the way I stopped by my favorite Fish & Chip shop (very rarely in that vicinity), so win win : )

razyn
05-07-2018, 12:32 AM
I was able to pick up a copy from WH Smiths who are very good for providing lots of publications in the UK.

It's almost certainly easier, not to mention less expensive, to find a UK publication at a UK bookstore in the UK than over 'ere. Anyway, I have it now, and am pleased.

jdean
05-07-2018, 12:50 AM
It's almost certainly easier, not to mention less expensive, to find a UK publication at a UK bookstore in the UK than over 'ere. Anyway, I have it now, and am pleased.

In these days everything seems so easily grasped via the internet, I've taken days out visiting libraries for books that I subsequently have download for nothing, but items not so simply obtained are always cherished : )

JonikW
09-17-2018, 09:11 AM
I really need some help on L11 and hope this thread isn't too inappropriate. I've long dreamed of tracking down a male on my late mother's paternal line, and through Gedmatch I've just found a first cousin whose family left Wales before he was born. I didn't even know they existed. He tested MyHeritage so I've used the Morley tool, which says he's L11. Is there anyone who can look at the screenshots below and tell me whether there are any downstream clues or what Yseq test we could go for? I'm completely ignorant about R1b apart from a little reading on L21 and U106. Thanks.

Examining: R1b1a2a1a [R1b-L11 (R1b-L151, R1b-YSC0000082)]
This suggested classification does not account for the following positive SNPs:

CLFY2174
CLFY2526
CLFY7065
CTS11429
H:14193384(G|A)
IMS-JST003305
L1345
L1350
L822
L875
M1221
M3636
M3638
M3659
M3677
M3681
M3689
M3704
M3714
M3717
M3726
M3740
M3741
M702
M706
M760
M9118
PAGES00081
PF2590
PF2653
PF2658
PF2667
PF2690
PF2700
PF2707
PF2722
PF2736
PF2737
PF5911
PF5918
PF6131
PF6247
PF6266
PF6267
PF6487
PF6505
PF:14577177(A|G)
PF:14871976(T|C)
PF:15204710(C|A)
S2041
S27171
S27406
S27468
S27621
S27715
Y506
YSC0000287
YSC0001270
Z4413

26000

26001

26002

razyn
09-17-2018, 12:17 PM
Is there anyone who can look at the screenshots below and tell me whether there are any downstream clues or what Yseq test we could go for?

26001


I'm not entirely sure where the Morley Tool comes from, anymore. But Chris Morley used to post here, briefly (last post in Dec. 2014). He said his tool (then, anyway) was based on Geno2 data, and the Geno2 chip did not test for P312 or DF27 [so in the graphic I have retained for this response, you see those SNPs in a brownish tint]. But it did test for the other major SNPs below L11 that were then known. So, chances are pretty good that your maternal grandfather is P312+, DF27+, and several steps below that -- that are known now, but weren't tested by the Geno2 chip (five years ago).

It's also quite possible, but statistically less likely, that grandpa belonged in some other clade downstream of L11 that is known now, but was not when the Geno2 chip was designed. In those cases, you don't even see the name of the SNP in brown.

As Chris said,
Using a Geno-tuned predictor on next-gen data can produce some strange results.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 05:09 PM
I'm not entirely sure where the Morley Tool comes from, anymore. But Chris Morley used to post here, briefly (last post in Dec. 2014). He said his tool (then, anyway) was based on Geno2 data, and the Geno2 chip did not test for P312 or DF27 [so in the graphic I have retained for this response, you see those SNPs in a brownish tint]. But it did test for the other major SNPs below L11 that were then known. So, chances are pretty good that your maternal grandfather is P312+, DF27+, and several steps below that -- that are known now, but weren't tested by the Geno2 chip (five years ago).

It's also quite possible, but statistically less likely, that grandpa belonged in some other clade downstream of L11 that is known now, but was not when the Geno2 chip was designed. In those cases, you don't even see the name of the SNP in brown.

As Chris said,

I appreciate your help. I'm going to offer to pay for a Yseq test. Any tips on what to go for? Would you just try the R1b-M343 panel?

ADD: was just thinking; is there any way I could check the MyHeritage file for P312?

JonikW
09-17-2018, 06:47 PM
Did some googling, and I've checked rs34276300, which I believe is P312, and rs11799226, or L21. Neither are included in the results.

rms2
09-17-2018, 09:10 PM
Did some googling, and I've checked rs34276300, which I believe is P312, and rs11799226, or L21. Neither are included in the results.

L21 has a frequency of about 50% in Wales, so that would be his odds if we did not already know he is L11. I'm not sure what the overall frequency of L11 is in Wales: maybe 70%? If so, that ups his odds of being L21 to about 71%. (That's without adding the fact that we know he is U106-.)

rms2
09-17-2018, 09:26 PM
L21 has a frequency of about 50% in Wales, so that would be his odds if we did not already know he is L11. I'm not sure what the overall frequency of L11 is in Wales: maybe 70%? If so, that ups his odds of being L21 to about 71%. (That's without adding the fact that we know he is U106-.)

If we guesstimate that U106 runs at about 10% in Wales, then given the rest above, that makes his chances of being L21 5/6 instead of 5/7, which means he has an 83% chance of being L21.

That's rough figuring, because I don't know the exact frequencies of L11, L21, and U106 in Wales.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 09:28 PM
L21 has a frequency of about 50% in Wales, so that would be his odds if we did not already know he is L11. I'm not sure what the overall frequency of L11 is in Wales: maybe 70%? If so, that ups his odds of being L21 to about 71%. (That's without adding the fact that we know he is U106-.)

Thanks for that. Great to hear from someone who really knows R1b too. I've started a new thread because the family has just agreed to test further, which changes the game a bit. I've used Yseq before and want to go that route. Maybe I'll just say what the heck and gamble on the L21 panel. I've won and lost a few I1 subclade bets with them in the past and always had the consolation of knowing that I was helping to fund an excellent and efficient business. Here's the thread.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15381-R1b-L11-expertise-needed&p=490883#post490883

rms2
09-17-2018, 09:34 PM
Thanks for that. Great to hear from someone who really knows R1b too. I've started a new thread because the family has just agreed to test further, which changes the game a bit. I've used Yseq before and want to go that route. Maybe I'll just say what the heck and gamble on the L21 panel. I've won and lost a few I1 subclade bets with them in the past and always had the consolation of knowing that I was helping to fund an excellent and efficient business. Here's the thread.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15381-R1b-L11-expertise-needed&p=490883#post490883

Well, I think the odds that he is L21+ are pretty good: like I said, about 83%, given the frequency of L21 in Wales and the facts that we know he is L11+ of some kind and U106-.

Could be wrong, but I think going with the L21 panel isn't a bad idea.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 09:55 PM
Well, I think the odds that he is L21+ are pretty good: like I said, about 83%, given the frequency of L21 in Wales and the facts that we know he is L11+ of some kind and U106-.

Could be wrong, but I think going with the L21 panel isn't a bad idea.

Sometimes the all or nothing approach is the right one, particularly given how good the panel looks for the money. If I lose the bet they'll still have the sample and I can test again at leisure. I remember when I was testing myself they turned each one around in days and they made it easy for me to get almost as far as I have so far with Big Y.

JonikW
09-17-2018, 11:33 PM
Just to update, I've gambled on the L21 panel and posted on the thread I started. Thanks.

rms2
09-23-2018, 01:45 PM
Just to update, I've gambled on the L21 panel and posted on the thread I started. Thanks.

I hope you will let us know how things come out.

JonikW
09-23-2018, 08:28 PM
I hope you will let us know how things come out.

I certainly will. They've received the swabs and were planning to do the test over the weekend, so things are moving along nicely.

rms2
09-30-2018, 10:35 PM
Any word?

JonikW
10-14-2018, 08:53 PM
Any word?

I've just had this. Is it good or bad news for my bet?
Apologies for not checking back here before btw.

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 processing
DF41 processing
Z251 processing

rms2
10-14-2018, 09:32 PM
I've just had this. Is it good or bad news for my bet?

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 processing
DF41 processing
Z251 processing

Looks like he is DF13+ Z39589+, which means you won your bet: he is L21+.

Since he is Z39589+, that means he belongs to one of the Z39589+ subclades, but not DF49, since he is DF49-. Look at the right side of the L21 tree here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/results) to see the Z39589+ subclades. DF41 is one of them. I hope he is DF41+. I belong to a subclade of DF41.

JonikW
10-14-2018, 09:50 PM
Looks like he is DF13+ Z39589+, which means you won your bet: he is L21+.

Since he is Z39589+, that means he belongs to one of the Z39589+ subclades, but not DF49, since he is DF49-. Look at the right side of the L21 tree here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/results) to see the Z39589+ subclades. DF41 is one of them. I hope he is DF41+. I belong to a subclade of DF41.

Thanks so much for that. I will start looking into L21 properly now. I've had a hectic week or so. It would be great if he's DF41+. I'm certainly glad I took the gamble on L21.

rms2
10-14-2018, 09:54 PM
Thanks so much for that. I will start looking into L21 properly now. I've had a hectic week or so. It would be great if he's DF41+. I'm certainly glad I took the gamble on L21.

Congratulations! The math was on the side of his being L21, and it proved right.

DF41 is a neat little subclade. The Royal House of Stewart belongs to it, as does the famous Guinness brewing family.

jdean
10-15-2018, 03:13 PM
Congratulations! The math was on the side of his being L21, and it proved right.

DF41 is a neat little subclade. The Royal House of Stewart belongs to it, as does the famous Guinness brewing family.

Lot of good folk who are DF41 that's for sure : )

rms2
10-15-2018, 10:58 PM
Lot of good folk who are DF41 that's for sure : )

All the Z39589 subclades are high quality. B)

jdean
10-15-2018, 11:19 PM
All the Z39589 subclades are high quality. B)

Most definitely : )

JonikW
10-17-2018, 10:52 PM
For some reason I can't reply with quote today. So not DF41+... What next, I wonder. Must say, I love this company and their turnaround times. I had the same positive experience with them before.
Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 processing
S1051 processing
CTS1751 processing
S1026 processing
Z16500 processing

rms2
10-18-2018, 11:31 AM
For some reason I can't reply with quote today. So not DF41+... What next, I wonder. Must say, I love this company and their turnaround times. I had the same positive experience with them before.
Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 processing
S1051 processing
CTS1751 processing
S1026 processing
Z16500 processing

Too bad he is DF41-. Oh, well, it's not one of the biggest clades anyway. It will be interesting to see to what clade he does belong.

JonikW
11-03-2018, 11:01 AM
Too bad he is DF41-. Oh, well, it's not one of the biggest clades anyway. It will be interesting to see to what clade he does belong.

I had this last night. Does it mean he's L371+?

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 C-
CTS1751 A-
S1026 T-
Z16500 C-
FGC10059 A+
S16264 A-
BY11922 processing

rms2
11-04-2018, 12:09 AM
I had this last night. Does it mean he's L371+?

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 C-
CTS1751 A-
S1026 T-
Z16500 C-
FGC10059 A+
S16264 A-
BY11922 processing

Wow. I've got to admit I've had a little to drink this evening and might not be razor sharp, but L371 is certainly possible. That would be cool, because L371 is particularly Welsh.

JonikW
11-04-2018, 12:47 AM
Wow. I've got to admit I've had a little to drink this evening and might not be razor sharp, but L371 is certainly possible. That would be cool, because L371 is particularly Welsh.

I guess I'll wait for the test to run its course and then do L371 separately if it's still unclear. FGC10059 is listed as one of "+29 SNPs" for L371 on YFull, and YSEQ has it down as "replacing L371", whatever that means.

rms2
11-04-2018, 01:15 AM
I guess I'll wait for the test to run its course and then do L371 separately if it's still unclear. FGC10059 is listed as one of "+29 SNPs" for L371 on YFull, and YSEQ has it down as "replacing L371", whatever that means.

I wasn't aware of that. That would not be at all surprising for a Welsh y-dna line. Pretty cool, I'd say.

JonikW
11-04-2018, 04:17 AM
I wasn't aware of that. That would not be at all surprising for a Welsh y-dna line. Pretty cool, I'd say.

I've posted separately again in case there might be any more insights and have also written to YSEQ about the SNP.

JonikW
11-07-2018, 04:03 PM
I wasn't aware of that. That would not be at all surprising for a Welsh y-dna line. Pretty cool, I'd say.

I've just had this. Yseq says BY11922 is "below L371". What does the "del" mean here? The testing continues...
Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel processing
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 C-
CTS1751 A-
S1026 T-
Z16500 C-
FGC10059 A+
S16264 A-
BY11922 del+
FGC30631 processing
FGC42169 processing

swid
11-07-2018, 07:04 PM
BY11922 is a single-base deletion at (Hg38) position 8346364.

JonikW
11-07-2018, 10:17 PM
BY11922 is a single-base deletion at (Hg38) position 8346364.

Thanks. I've just been told by someone who knows about these things (and explained to me what a deletion is) that he is derived and so L371+. Very exciting. I see YFull has a TMRCA of 350ybp although I assume it's actually a bit older given the diversity of Welsh surnames involved.

JonikW
11-28-2018, 09:12 AM
BY11922 is a single-base deletion at (Hg38) position 8346364.

So this is the final result. Any info would be much appreciated including on the reason for the asterisk:

Your final haplogroup is R1b-BY11922*
All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 C+
DF49 G-
Z39589 del+
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 C-
CTS1751 A-
S1026 T-
Z16500 C-
FGC10059 A+
S16264 A-
BY11922 del+
FGC30631 A-
FGC42169 A-

MacUalraig
11-28-2018, 10:41 AM
* just denotes negative for all known sub-branches.

JonikW
11-28-2018, 11:31 AM
* just denotes negative for all known sub-branches.

I appreciate that. Just to add, I've now written to the L371 group at YSEQ because I'd be happy to wish SNPs if there are any BY11922 testers from the same part of Wales as my family. This link shows four BY11922+ men, two of whom have common Welsh surnames (but not my own Jones). I'd certainly like advice if anyone has any views. I also have no idea of the BY11922 TMRCA estimate because I've been unable to find one.

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1361

JonikW
11-28-2018, 09:12 PM
I started a new thread over at Z39589. I'm hoping it may pull in new Welsh testers via Google as time goes by. I'd be interested to find out more about the geographical spread.