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View Full Version : L238 (P312>L238) a "Norse" marker



TigerMW
05-01-2013, 07:57 PM
L238 was discovered a couple of years ago. I believe Goldenhind had a hand in that and I'll try to get him over here to post. L238 is P312+ U152- L21- DF27- so it a little brother of a sort.

I noticed he posted on another forum that a new kind of L238+ variety may hav been identified.


I have been following L-238 since it was first identified. A rather surprising result has just come in. L-238 is so closely connected to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] variety, that previously it has been possible to predict L-238 results by a quick glance at the STR markers. However the most recent L-238+ result completely breaks the mold. He has the modal 11,14 at 385a/b instead of the characteristic Norse variety 11,13, though I believe there is at least one other L-238 who also has that. What was really surprising is that he has 13 at 439, which is on the other side of the modal (12) from the characteristic 11 of L-238. Though he hasn't tested for any of the other distinguishing L-238 markers, this is so surprising one almost has to wonder about a lab error. If accurate, it will no longer be possible to predict negative L-238 results based on those two markers alone.

This is also the first L238 result from Germany, though the location there (Mecklenberg in northern Germany) is close to Scandinavia.

GoldenHind
07-21-2013, 08:15 PM
I begin with a recent surprising L238 result. I mentioned this on another forum, but there is now more data, and I thought it worth posting here.

First a bit of background. From the time of its discovery, it appeared that the L238 subclade was equivalent to Ken Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] variety. He reported that this variety, which he said is found throughout Scandinavia though especially common in Norway, is distinguished by the following off modals:

385 = 11,13 (modal 11,14)
439 = 11 (modal 12)
441 = 14 (modal 13)
446 = 15 (modal 13)

Note: 441 is a standard marker at SMGF, where Ken did much of his data mining, but is only included at FTDNA with 111 markers or by special order.

The first people who tested L238+ matched the above profile exactly, though most did not have results for 441. Because the first two off modals in the signature appear in the first 12 FTDNA markers, it was pretty easy to identify likely L238 candidates. Rich S., who was managing the P312 and subclades project at the time, recruited a number of people from various Scandinavian projects who matched this profile at 385 and 439 to test for L238, and I believe every single one of them was positive.

Though further testing gave some L238+ results from some who didn't match all of the above off modals, and there were some who only matched one or two of them who got L238- negative results, it appeared certain that it was generally possible to identify L238 individuals from their STR profile alone.

However recently all this was turned upside down when Swan, who was in the P312** category because he had tested negative for all other P312 subclades and was presumed to be L238- from his STR profile, decided to test for L238 and got positive results. He only had 37 markers, which only gave him 385 and 439 for comparison, but he has the modal values at 385 and with 13 at 439, he is on the other side of the modal from the R1b-Nor profile there. This was so surprising, there was some speculation at first of a possible lab error. However he then ordered Z2245 and Z2247, SNPs known to be associated with L238, and got positive results for both. One lab error might be possible, but three seems virtually impossible.

He has since specially ordered 446 and 441 to see how he matches Nordtvedt's profile at the other two markers. He matches the Norse profile at 441 = 14, and with 446 = 14 he is at least on the same side of the modal as the Norse group.

Though very few have tested for it, 441 = 14 is the only off modal found in every L238+ to date. It may be significant that this marker is the slowest mutator of the four markers which distinguish this variety.

I am not ready to abandon the identification of L238 and the R1b-Nor variety. I still believe that those who have all or most of the above off modals are more likely to be L238+ than not. However one needs to be careful in predicting L238- status based on STR results alone, especially when they are only available for 385 and 439.

Svan
07-22-2013, 06:09 PM
I am not qualified to comment on the science of DNA, but I do have almost 60 years experience studying world history, and over 40 years experience in family history. When I learned that I am the outlier 238+ mentioned by GoldenHind above and in another forum back in April, I was just happy to get out of the big pond of P312 into a smaller pond.

I had already traced my paternal line to Mecklenburg in northern Germany in the year 1235, which until the year 1160 had been populated with Slavic tribes, probably mostly R1a. I assumed that the family had arrived from the west, from the Saxon or Frankish Germanic peoples, probably from today's Netherlands, since the history speaks a lot about the great numbers of Flemish people moving into the area. With the L238+ revelation, I began to look north.

Most of the other L238+ group seemed to have Norwegian roots or roots in Sweden near areas where Norse people would have traveled to trade. German historians had written that my paternal line had connections with Denmark, which I previously discounted since there was nothing in the German literature or in anyone's family tree that showed this. I then found a transliteration of the earliest record, from 1250, with the family name before Germany, which said it was Svan. Still working in the German literature, I found a connection to Danish Schleswig, but it was only when I got into the Danish literature that I found the family recorded in Danish North Jutland and Halland (in Scania, now part of Sweden).

I am now fairly convinced that this is the same family, but I would be more convinced if some more Danes came forward for DNA testing. Is the off modal L238 result evidence of a Danish mutation that migrated out of the Norse tribal area at an earlier time? I will leave that up to you people who are much more qualified than I am.

Mark Swan

TigerMW
07-22-2013, 09:42 PM
I begin with a recent surprising L238 result. I mentioned this on another forum, but there is now more data, and I thought it worth posting here
....
However recently all this was turned upside down when Swan, who was in the P312** category because he had tested negative for all other P312 subclades and was presumed to be L238- from his STR profile, decided to test for L238 and got positive results.
...

I assume we have him classified in the right place now, right?

:) I'm smiling, but I love it when this happens. SNP testing is truth telling. We have SNP predictors, I've got my STR signature analysis, etc., etc., etc. However, the SNPs can confound us, but they are right* while we are working with the vagaries of STRs and anomalies and convergence on branches of the tree.

* assuming labs are making errors, etc.

GoldenHind
07-23-2013, 12:27 AM
I assume we have him classified in the right place now, right?


Correct. He is now on the L238 list.

GoldenHind
07-23-2013, 12:37 AM
I am now fairly convinced that this is the same family, but I would be more convinced if some more Danes came forward for DNA testing. Is the off modal L238 result evidence of a Danish mutation that migrated out of the Norse tribal area at an earlier time? I will leave that up to you people who are much more qualified than I am.

Mark Swan

I wish we knew the answer to that. Nordtvedt has said that Denmark has a fair share of his R1b-Nor variety, but aside from you, there is no one I know of Danish ancestry who has tested L238+. There is one Dane in the P312 project who is a very good match to the L238 STR profile, but he never responded to emails from both Henry or myself urging him to test for it. Oddly enough, he lists his EKA as coming from Spain

TigerMW
09-26-2013, 04:24 AM
I started this thread up because L238 is scattered in a couple of different places.

tjlowery87
11-01-2013, 03:33 PM
they all seem to be Scandinavian or places where(ancient) Scandinavians went

GoldenHind
11-01-2013, 06:52 PM
I started this thread up because L238 is scattered in a couple of different places.

Perhaps more surprising to me is where it hasn't been found, ie anywhere outside of Scandinavia and Britain. For instance, none was found in a sample of 500 in the Netherlands. It is generally thought that the Netherlands was populated by Germanic tribes moving south out of Scandinavia in the collapse of the Roman Empire. If L238 was in existence during the migration period, one would also expect to find at least a smattering in all the places the various Germanic tribes which probably began their journey in Scandinavia went to, such as Vandals in Spain and Visigoths and Lombards in Italy. We should also expect to find some in Russia from the Swedish Rus.

I can think of various possible explanations:
1) L238 dates to sometime after 500 AD.
2) L238 was confined somewhere in Norway during the Migartion Period and did not spread to Sweden and Denmark in any significant numbers until much later.
3) The number of L238 in places such as Spain and Italy is so small it requires more extensive sampling to find it.

Gizbar
11-21-2013, 03:28 PM
I belong to the L238 group and live in Halland, Sweden. The connection to Denmark as Svan states is intriguing. The name form of Svan without e as ending or w instead of v could point at Sweden as origin. I´m not a linguist but I know the spelling today and have read the SAOB about the ethymology. The area my great great grandfather came from is Skällinge in Halland. When he moved out from the area it was still pretty remote and off road. I have done a lot of geneological research there and know some others who have done the same. The picture of the area and surrounding parishes is good.

There have been a lot of wars during past ages between Denmark and Sweden, often with Germans on the danish side. A couple of the biggest clashes stood not far away from Skällinge. It would be wonderful if somehow we could clear out from where the types of L238 comes.

Another medieval connection is the cloisters set up in Åskloster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85s_Abbey) by danish brethrens. That cloister did not lie far from Skällinge. That was during a couple of hundred years an industrial site for iron working. I guess other danes followed for the work. I see a possible connection between the nordic areas and Italy and Spain though the cloisters of the Cistercians as possible.

If we look at the Norway connection, we have had a row of kings ruling both Norway and Sweden. A couple had one of their main castles in Varberg in Halland. We know of a couple of areas with norwegian influences that can be heard in dialects of Swedish. One of them lies here at the west coast.

Our modern boundaries is modern. We have to take them away painting the picture of past times. From long before viking age untill renaissance Norway, Denmark and Sweden was one big union. The flow of genes must have reached all over.

One big question: Should I take the 111 test at ftDNA? I am 385 = 11,13 and 439 = 11.

GoldenHind
11-28-2013, 12:50 AM
One big question: Should I take the 111 test at ftDNA? I am 385 = 11,13 and 439 = 11.

There are only a few L238's who have 111 markers. Perhaps we may find out if L238 has identifiable off modal markers in the 68-111 range.

GoldenHind
11-28-2013, 12:53 AM
There is some excellent news on the L238 front. An L238 has ordered the BigY test from FTDNA. As there are several SNPs found in the two English L238 samples in the 1KG project, a comparison may go some way to further refining the structure of the subclade.

Yggdrasil
11-28-2013, 10:13 AM
Our modern boundaries is modern. We have to take them away painting the picture of past times. From long before viking age untill renaissance Norway, Denmark and Sweden was one big union. The flow of genes must have reached all over.

It is actually opposite. Before the Kalmar union in 1397 there had never been a Scandinavian union.

GoldenHind
11-30-2013, 04:40 AM
There are now two orders for the BigY by L238s- both from Sweden.

TigerMW
12-02-2013, 04:51 PM
There are now two orders for the BigY by L238s- both from Sweden.
That's great. I wonder if there might an SNP that ties the L238 young-ish looking subclade with some other subclade of P312.
Do you have their kit#s?

GoldenHind
12-03-2013, 01:45 AM
That's great. I wonder if there might an SNP that ties the L238 young-ish looking subclade with some other subclade of P312.
Do you have their kit#s?

N28747 batch 544 due 1-13-14
29135 Unbatched

I keep expecting at least one SNP between P312 and L238, but I am informed that the several additional SNPs present in the two English L238s in the 1KG project are not found in any other P312 subclade in any of the public databases. All indications are that L238 is relatively young, perhaps 1000 YBP. If an SNP occurs every two or three generations, there must have been quite a few during the four or so thousand years between the births of P312 and L238. If none of them are found in any other P312 subclade, there must have been an extraordinary bottleneck.

VinceT
12-03-2013, 05:45 AM
N28747 batch 544 due 1-13-14
29135 Unbatched

I keep expecting at least one SNP between P312 and L238, but I am informed that the several additional SNPs present in the two English L238s in the 1KG project are not found in any other P312 subclade in any of the public databases. All indications are that L238 is relatively young, perhaps 1000 YBP. If an SNP occurs every two or three generations, there must have been quite a few during the four or so thousand years between the births of P312 and L238. If none of them are found in any other P312 subclade, there must have been an extraordinary bottleneck.

The two 1KGP samples mentioned are HG00157 and HG01334, although HG01334 has a no-call at L238.

Analyzing these in context with all the other 1KGP samples reveals at least 7, and possibly as much as 10 SNPs including Z2245 and Z2247 which are approximate with R-L238, and all are parallel to R-DF19, R-DF27, R-DF99, R-L21, and R-U152.

With a guesstimated accumulation rate of 1 SNP per 100 to 150 years at 1KGP resolution, R-L238 appears to be roughly in the neighbourhood of 700 to 1500 years younger than R-P312. I think this was approximately in line with the correlating STR off-modal difference between the "R1b-Nor" motif and the R-P312 modal a.k.a. WAMH?

The apparent bottleneck effect of this is rather quite intriguing indeed. It will be interesting to see what the two BIG Y tests reveal.

Vince T.

GoldenHind
12-04-2013, 02:35 AM
With a guesstimated accumulation rate of 1 SNP per 100 to 150 years at 1KGP resolution, R-L238 appears to be roughly in the neighbourhood of 700 to 1500 years younger than R-P312. I think this was approximately in line with the correlating STR off-modal difference between the "R1b-Nor" motif and the R-P312 modal a.k.a. WAMH?


Vince T.

Personally, I would be surprised if L238 was only 700 to 1500 years younger than P312. Someone did a variance calculation recently and came up with something around 1000 AD, which seems a little too young to me. If it were much older, I would expect it would be present in those areas where the various Germanic tribes, many emanating out of Scandinavia, expanded during the Migration period, but so far none has been found. There wasn't a single example in the 500 samples in the Netherlands study. The only area outside of Scandinavia it has been found is in England and Scotland, which is certainly explainable by events occurring during and after the Viking age.

The L238 STR signature is reasonably close to the WAMH, but unlike the other subclades directly below P312, it can almost always be predicted from STR markers. Of the STR markers Nordtvedt used to identify his R1b-Nor variety, only one (DYS441) is considered slow by FTDNA. All the others (DYS385a/b, 439 and 446) are characterized as fast mutators. I have difficulty understanding how a subclade identified by fast mutating markers could be as old as the subclades which have no distinct STR signature differing from that of P312 itself.

GoldenHind
12-15-2013, 08:04 PM
Someone did a variance calculation recently and came up with something around 1000 AD, which seems a little too young to me.

Correction to the above statement, since I can no longer edit it.

Two people worked out a likely age for L238, but it was closer to 2000 YPB, but with a wide +/- margin of error.

Gizbar
02-01-2014, 11:15 PM
It is actually opposite. Before the Kalmar union in 1397 there had never been a Scandinavian union.

You'r right. My use of the word union was wrong. I meant unified cultural area. I guess it's even more complex than that. A lot of subcultures close by geography. Still with geneflow all over.

One important region is the one usually looked on as a border, the sea areas of Kattegatt and Skagerak between Sweden and Denmark. The flow of people forth and back, the trade, the monasteries with their networks, and danish cheiftains and kings claiming the west Sweden as theirs (long before taling unions) with their area rulers set to protect their interests, all make my paternal ancestry region the focus point. My oldest known L238 ancestor comes from Northern Halland. :)

Add Norway using Halland as crosspoint to Denmark and you have a highway for gene transport in a pretty close area.

My thought is now: How come we don´t find L238 more spread?

Gizbar
02-01-2014, 11:19 PM
Any news about L238 subclades?

GoldenHind
02-02-2014, 01:44 AM
Any news about L238 subclades?

Not yet. We are still waiting for the results from the Big Y (see my post #12 above). They are expected this month.

GoldenHind
03-31-2014, 10:53 PM
BigY results identified two new L238s in the past couple of days, one from Norway and one from Finland. There are now three BigY L238 results I am aware of- the first is from Sweden. I am hopeful someone will start analyzing them to see if there is anything new.

GoldenHind
04-02-2014, 10:39 PM
There is now a fourth L238 whose BigY results have been posted, someone with ancestry from Sweden who had previously tested L238+. I am informed that if they don't mind making their Big Y results public and will post them on the Yahoo P312 Project, someone has created a program which will sort through them to look for anything new.

GoldenHind
04-05-2014, 07:47 PM
Another L238+ from Norway came in today (not from the Big Y).

PStar
04-10-2014, 06:42 PM
For what it's worth, I am +L238 and I have a new close marker match on FTDNA. He is one off at 37 and traces his YDNA to Poland. My other matches at this level are +L238, but it doesn't appear he has tested yet. This is the first from Poland that I have come across.

GoldenHind
04-10-2014, 10:38 PM
For what it's worth, I am +L238 and I have a new close marker match on FTDNA. He is one off at 37 and traces his YDNA to Poland. My other matches at this level are +L238, but it doesn't appear he has tested yet. This is the first from Poland that I have come across.

Very interesting. There was someone from Poland who had an STR signature very close to that found in L238, but he tested negative. I don't know if this is the same person or not. We have yet to find any L238s outside of Scandinavia (including Finland) and Britain.

Two things you could do. 1) Send me a PM with his name, and I can check my files to see if he is the same one. 2) Contact him and ask him if he is a member of the R1b-P312 and Subclades Project, and if he isn't, suggest he join. I assume you are already a member of that project. That is the only way I have of keeping track of L238 results. If you aren't, I suggest you join as well.

GoldenHind
04-25-2014, 07:28 PM
Unless I somehow just missed it, it appears that L238 is not included in the FTDNA's newly released haplotree. As it was discovered at least four years ago, this is inexcusable.

GoldenHind
05-01-2014, 07:18 PM
Another L238+ result has come in for someone in Norway. He fits the L238 STR profile fairly well.

GoldenHind
05-02-2014, 05:00 PM
Yet another Norwegian L238+ result posted today, who also fits the STR profile.

R.Rocca
05-02-2014, 05:12 PM
Yet another Norwegian L238+ result posted today, who also fits the STR profile.

Do you know if anyone in the L238+ group has done FGC and/or Big-Y testing?

GoldenHind
05-02-2014, 11:41 PM
Do you know if anyone in the L238+ group has done FGC and/or Big-Y testing?

I don't know of any L238's who have done FGC testing, but I believe there are four who have BigY results (see my posts 23 and 24 on the previous page). I am hopeful someone with the ability to analyze them will take the time to look for new SNPs both above and below L238.

GoldenHind
05-09-2014, 10:22 PM
I have sent an email to FTDNA to complain about their omission of L238 from their new R1b-P312 tree. I received a response they were aware there are "certain differences" between the ISOGG tree and their new tree. My complaint is being forwarded to their "Y team," and they will take my request to add L238 to their new tree "into consideration".

Webb
05-10-2014, 10:58 PM
I have sent an email to FTDNA to complain about their omission of L238 from their new R1b-P312 tree. I received a response they were aware there are "certain differences" between the ISOGG tree and their new tree. My complaint is being forwarded to their "Y team," and they will take my request to add L238 to their new tree "into consideration".

L238 and DF19 are now on FTDNA's tree with four other markers directly under P312 that I do not recognize.

Svan
05-11-2014, 04:32 PM
It's great to finally see L238 on the Y-DNA Haplotree, along with a new group of tests available.

1857

Is it possible to prioritize these available tests?

The new "my Origins" maps are out too, but instead of having even a tiny percentage of Norway on my map, it points to European Coastal Islands (UK) and North Circumpolar (Finland). Seeing that large mass of blue over the UK makes me wonder, is it possible that L238 mutated in Britain and then was carried to Norway during the Viking expansion?

Finally, don't know who to ask this, is it possible to compare 2 people who have FTDNA tests and have a genealogy as 11 cousins but don't show a match on Family Finder? I find it very interesting that I am L238+ and this 11th cousin is Norwegian but not L238, and I would like to prove the genealogy is correct, or not.

jdean
05-11-2014, 05:04 PM
I have sent an email to FTDNA to complain about their omission of L238 from their new R1b-P312 tree. I received a response they were aware there are "certain differences" between the ISOGG tree and their new tree. My complaint is being forwarded to their "Y team," and they will take my request to add L238 to their new tree "into consideration".

Wow, congratulations !!

To be honest I'm quite flabbergasted they took note of your issue at all let alone acted on it.

Clearly I'm going to have to drop them a line about DF49 and Z2961 !!

GoldenHind
05-11-2014, 05:28 PM
Wow, congratulations !!

To be honest I'm quite flabbergasted they took note of your issue at all let alone acted on it.

Clearly I'm going to have to drop them a line about DF49 and Z2961 !!

FTDNA has indeed added L238 to their new tree. I do not know whether this was done as a result of my suggestion.

They still do not include DF99, which I also requested they add.

I believe DF19 was there from the start of their new tree.

GoldenHind
05-11-2014, 05:39 PM
It's great to finally see L238 on the Y-DNA Haplotree, along with a new group of tests available.

1857

Is it possible to prioritize these available tests?

The new "my Origins" maps are out too, but instead of having even a tiny percentage of Norway on my map, it points to European Coastal Islands (UK) and North Circumpolar (Finland). Seeing that large mass of blue over the UK makes me wonder, is it possible that L238 mutated in Britain and then was carried to Norway during the Viking expansion?

Finally, don't know who to ask this, is it possible to compare 2 people who have FTDNA tests and have a genealogy as 11 cousins but don't show a match on Family Finder? I find it very interesting that I am L238+ and this 11th cousin is Norwegian but not L238, and I would like to prove the genealogy is correct, or not.

Assuming FTDNA has positioned these suggested SNPs correctly (an assumption I wouldn't make), they appear to be parallel to L238 and not below it, so you are not likely to test positive for any of them.

I cannot respond concerning Family Finder, but if you and an 11th cousin both descended in the same male line, you should both have the same results for L238. If you do not, their is a break or an NPE in the male descent in one of your lines. Of course this doesn't apply if the relationship is through one or more females.

The fact that L238 is concentrated in Norway and Sweden and rare in Britain, despite the enormous bias of British samples in the FTDNA database, makes it almost certain that L238 arose somewhere in Scandinavia and not Britain.

jdean
05-11-2014, 06:00 PM
FTDNA has indeed added L238 to their new tree. I do not know whether this was done as a result of my suggestion.

They still do not include DF99, which I also requested they add.

I believe DF19 was there from the start of their new tree.


I expect DF99 was considered a little too new by FTDNA. I don't expect to get very far with Z2961 either but I don't see why they shouldn't place DF49 on the tree, they have DF23 already and DF49 has been in their system for a good while now.

PStar
05-14-2014, 07:49 PM
Svan
The Family Finder is confusing to me. I have a 3rd cousin match with a person in Norway. I have communicated with her and neither of us have a clue how we are related. Also, my closest match at 37 markers, 1 off, is confirmed l238 but no match on Family Finder.

GoldenHind
06-01-2014, 08:09 PM
I came across a bit of a puzzler in looking at the R1b-P312 project grouping today. I found someone who FTDNA "predicts" to be L238. He does fit the L238 STR profile reasonably well, and has a couple of L238s amongst his matches. But his haplotree page showed he hasn't done any SNP testing at all. Nor does it show that he has ordered the Big Y (or Geno 2, which doesn't include L238 anyway). Does this mean FTDNA has now taken to predicting haplogroup status based on STR markers? If so, they are bound to get some of them wrong, as it is pretty well known that predicting R1b haplogroup subclades based on STR markers and even 67 marker matches is fraught with danger.

Has anyone else seen an example of this practice?

rms2
06-01-2014, 09:18 PM
I came across a bit of a puzzler in looking at the R1b-P312 project grouping today. I found someone who FTDNA "predicts" to be L238. He does fit the L238 STR profile reasonably well, and has a couple of L238s amongst his matches. But his haplotree page showed he hasn't done any SNP testing at all. Nor does it show that he has ordered the Big Y (or Geno 2, which doesn't include L238 anyway). Does this mean FTDNA has now taken to predicting haplogroup status based on STR markers? If so, they are bound to get some of them wrong, as it is pretty well known that predicting R1b haplogroup subclades based on STR markers and even 67 marker matches is fraught with danger.

Has anyone else seen an example of this practice?

Yes, they are doing that with L21 now and even some of its subclades (other than M222, which they have been predicting for years).

They could get these predictions wrong, but I have found their predictions have been prompting people to test who probably never would have otherwise.

We've gotten a rash of new members of the R L21 and Subclades Project as a result, men who have done no SNP testing at all but are predicted to be R-L21 or to belong to one of its subclades. It has created extra work for me, but many of them (but not all) are ordering the appropriate test to confirm their status, so I look on it as a plus.

jdean
06-02-2014, 01:29 PM
Yes, they are doing that with L21 now and even some of its subclades (other than M222, which they have been predicting for years).

They could get these predictions wrong, but I have found their predictions have been prompting people to test who probably never would have otherwise.

We've gotten a rash of new members of the R L21 and Subclades Project as a result, men who have done no SNP testing at all but are predicted to be R-L21 or to belong to one of its subclades. It has created extra work for me, but many of them (but not all) are ordering the appropriate test to confirm their status, so I look on it as a plus.

And in the meantime we've people in the DF49 project who have tested DF49 and L2961 positive but are stuck with an R-M269 : )

rms2
06-09-2014, 02:15 PM
And in the meantime we've people in the DF49 project who have tested DF49 and L2961 positive but are stuck with an R-M269 : )

Weird. I really like FTDNA. They have been good to me, and I regard Bennett Greenspan as one of the good guys. But I sure hope they get all this mess squared away soon.

jdean
06-10-2014, 06:52 PM
Weird. I really like FTDNA. They have been good to me, and I regard Bennett Greenspan as one of the good guys. But I sure hope they get all this mess squared away soon.

Yep I'm a fan of Bennett as well. To be honest I don't think FTDNA are trying to be awkward about this, they've just bitten of a bit more than they can chew right now !!!

Svan
06-23-2014, 11:49 AM
L238+

I am attempting to write a simple but inclusive summary of L238+ and have a, probably Nordic, desire to achieve consensus. I invite review/critique/comment:

L238+ (or S182), called a "Norse" marker, is a subclade of the P312 branch of the "Atlantic Modal Haplotype", R1b. It probably originated in Norway about 1500 years ago and then spread southeast into Sweden and southwest into the U.K. As of June 2014, nearly all the known members of L238+ appear to have origins in these areas, with a plurality originating in Norway.

PStar
06-24-2014, 02:46 PM
Based on what we know at this point, I would agree with everything in your summary. I have been hoping there would be more news about upstream clades that would shed more light on the origins of L238, but nothing so far.

fletch
06-25-2014, 04:43 PM
L238+

I am attempting to write a simple but inclusive summary of L238+ and have a, probably Nordic, desire to achieve consensus. I invite review/critique/comment:

L238+ (or S182), called a "Norse" marker, is a subclade of the P312 branch of the "Atlantic Modal Haplotype", R1b. It probably originated in Norway about 1500 years ago and then spread southeast into Sweden and southwest into the U.K. As of June 2014, nearly all the known members of L238+ appear to have origins in these areas, with a plurality originating in Norway.

I am 102949 (N4TAY ysearch) from England and my ancestor from Sheerness port, Kent was illegitimate, ie quite likely a sailor father. Question is: Norwegian sailor or maybe Scottish with Norwegian ancestry?? Re your summary, our 238 numbers are so low as to make an accurate TMRCA difficult, but the high GD figures mean it is perhaps in the order you state. However, if 238 originated 1500 yrs ago, the Vikings would have spread it far & wide: certainly to the UK and also to places like Russia, whereas so far it is primarily from those with relatively recent Scandinavian backgrounds. Had 238 got to the UK in even small amounts, surely by now there would have been many more 238+ results?

Svan
06-25-2014, 08:09 PM
Why not more 238+ results?

My family is recorded to have moved to Germany from Scandinavia about the year 1190 (plus or minus 10 years), but there are no L238+ guys with German ancestry. In my line there is only 1 surviving male for generations. I have no granduncles, no uncles, one son and one grandson. My 6th great-grandfather had 16 children, but only 1 great-grandson. Do any L238+ guys have lots of brother, uncles, etc.? Maybe we have a gene that just is more likely to produce daughters.

My summary did not intend to imply any order in the spread of L238. Do you think it should? If not 1500 years ago, then when? But it has to be at least 1000 years or your surname should be Svan.

PStar
06-25-2014, 08:29 PM
To my knowledge, L239 has not been found in Iceland or Faroe. That would lead me to believe it originated after the settlement of these two areas. I do think both were originally settled by people from Western Norway. I have seen mentions, but not verified, of possible L238 in Italy and I have a match from Poland that is most likely L238 but he hasn't tested. I think it will be found in other areas. That being said, it is very rare in it's epicenter, so it will likely be found few and far between outside of it.
I think it appeared sometime @1,200 years ago, but that's just my guess. I'm just glad there is discussion about it.

GoldenHind
06-25-2014, 09:54 PM
Perhaps a bit of background is in order. This group was first discovered by the brilliant scientist Ken Nordtvedt, who did a lot of data mining on various public DNA websites looking for different varieties who had matching off modal markers. I don't know how many HGs he investigated, but certainly he did HG I and R1b. One particular R1b variety he termed R1b-Nor- probably for Norwegian, though I have always thought Norse was a better term. He said the hot spot was in western Norway, but there was a "decent share" in Sweden and Denmark as well. He added: "My gut tells me it is an early entry of R1b into the coastal regions of Norway/Denmark and then spread inland from there." He also said that he believed the R1b-Nor variety accounts for a "significant part" of the R11b in Norway.

To cut a long story short, this R1b-Nor variety was eventually identified with the R1b-P312 subclade L238. Since I played a role in that process, I have always had an interest in it, even though I am not L238+ myself.

From what is known at the moment from the FTDNA database, it appears to be fairly common in Norway and Sweden. No L238 has yet been found in Denmark, thought there is a Dane in the P312 project whose markers indicate he would almost certainly test positive. There have only been a very few L238s found in Britain so far. The 1KG project found only two- both with ancestry from Kent. To my knowledge, none have been found on the continent outside Scandinavia (including Finland). The Genes of the Netherlands study found zero in a sample of 500. Nordtvedt did mention he found one individual from Switzerland who matched the R1b-Nor STR signature, so perhaps they do exist on other parts of the the continent, but are just very rare there.

There are a number of mysteries about L238. Where and when did it originate? Of the distinguishing off modal markers identified by Nordtvedt, three of the four are considered fast mutating. This suggests to me that it is fairly young, especially when coupled with the apparent fact that virtually everyone in the subclade matches Nordtvedt's signature. If it was old, why hasn't it been found elsewhere on the continent? One would have thought the various Germanic tribes emanating out of Scandinavia during the migration age would have spread it to places such as Italy and Spain with the Vandals, Visigoths, etc. One would also have suspected that the events of the Viking age would have brought more to Britain than is currently indicated.

Another mystery is why no SNPs have been identified either between P312 and L238, or below L238. If current estimates of an SNP occurring at least every two or three generations or so are correct, there should be plenty of SNPs both above and below L238.

I don't think we have a decent answer to any of these questions yet. I certainly don't have a theory which would explain the various mysteries. I think we will just have to wait until we have more data.

I believe there were four L238s who ordered the Big Y. We need someone who has access to their data as well as that of the two 1KG samples, and has the technical abilities to run a comparison to see what may be discovered. There is such a person, and he has told me it is on his list of things to do, but I gather he is overwhelmed with other things at present. I do know the two British 1KG samples both had several other SNPs not associated with other R1b subclades. The only two of the 1KG L238 SNPs ever made available for testing are Z2245 and Z2247, which could be either above or below L238. However the few other L238s who have tested for them were also positive for both of them, so they may have an equivalent position to L238.

I also know that Jim Wilson of BritainsDNA (where L238 is termed S182) is interested in the subject, and may possibly publish some data about it at some point in the future. However he keeps what he knows fairly close to his vest.

GoldenHind
06-29-2014, 11:54 PM
If I am reading it correctly, according to a recent revision of the R1b tree by Yfull, a new SNP has been discovered between P312 and L238 called Z2244. They list one sample from the 1KG project as Z2244*, meaning he is Z2245+, but L238-. They appear to list Z2245 through Z2251 as equivalent to L238. Finally it looks like they have placed CTS 6549 and 6550 as below L238. I am having some difficulty following it.

EDIT: In checking, it appears that the 1KG sample from Britain that Yfull is listing as Z2244+ L238- (HG01334) is said by others to actually be L238+. Also it appears that Yfull lists CTS6549 and 6550 as equivalent SNPs to L238, not below them. I believe the only L238s they have in their database are the two British 1KG samples.

It looks like another L238 mystery.

Keith
07-06-2014, 11:36 PM
Just as an interested amateur, I was tested using BritainsDNA's services and came up as S182 (R1b Z2245). On the website it gives a distribution in the UK of this type and gives a 1 to 2% incidence of this group in the north of Scotland, 1% in Yorkshire (my paternal ancestry) and 1% in the south east of England. Of course, I don't know how many customers they have tested, but I assume that it is several thousands. So there are certainly a few of us in Britain. The BritainsDNA website suggests it is a relatively new haplogroup, probably originating in Southern Norway, and came to Britain with Cnut in the 11th century.

Svan
07-24-2014, 09:57 PM
On my FTDNA Y-DNA Haplotree, before my L238+ result there is a test available for CTS10429. After my L238+ result there is a test available for DF99. Can anyone give me odds, even if they are only rough odds, that either test will yield a positive result.

GoldenHind
07-25-2014, 03:40 AM
On my FTDNA Y-DNA Haplotree, before my L238+ result there is a test available for CTS10429. After my L238+ result there is a test available for DF99. Can anyone give me odds, even if they are only rough odds, that either test will yield a positive result.

It is clear that DF99 and L238 are two different branches of P312, so the chance you would test DF99+ are nil. I am unable to find anything about CTS10429. FTDNA seems to think it is yet another SNP directly below P312. I suspect the chances you would test positive for it are slim to none, but I can't be certain.

GoldenHind
07-25-2014, 11:22 PM
Another L238+ came in from Finland. I might be tempted to suggest L238 in Finland is a modern import from Sweden, but realistically it could have been there for a very long time.

TimoT
07-26-2014, 10:46 PM
Another L238+ came in from Finland. I might be tempted to suggest L238 in Finland is a modern import from Sweden, but realistically it could have been there for a very long time.


Hi all,
this new test result from Finland is mine. I am very interested in this L238 subject and I hope it will also provide more information on my paternal line background.

We do not know very well our paternal line family history: my grandfather's father has remained quite unknown to us. We only know his family name was (most likely) Sund. This suggests he had a Finnish-Swedish background. And in this case his family has moved to Finland from Sweden. So, Goldenhind's suggestion of an import from Sweden looks very obvious to me :)

Best regards,
Timo R,

TimoT
07-31-2014, 05:17 PM
Is there any more specific statistics available on L238? ( eg. number of positive results in general and by country..)

Best regards,
Timo

GoldenHind
07-31-2014, 06:52 PM
Is there any more specific statistics available on L238? ( eg. number of positive results in general and by country..)

Best regards,
Timo

I only know of the 29 L238s who are members of the R1b-P312 and Subclades project. If you log onto the project website, you can see the list under section C of the YDNA results. You can also look at the map function which shows the location of the earliest known ancestors for those who have entered a geographic location. The largest percentage are Norwegians, followed by those from Sweden. There are a few with British ancestry, as well as a couple of Americans with British surnames. There is at least one other L238 from Finland besides you, and he has a Finnish ancestral surname from the 18C. There isn't anyone who has tested L238 from Denmark yet, though Nordtvedt says his R1b-Nor variety is found there as well. There is one Dane who would undoubtedly test L238+, but several attempts to get him to test have gone unanswered.

TimoT
08-24-2014, 01:37 PM
Hi again,
I am considering to take Big-Y test in coming months. What do you think here, would this test be the best /most cost effective for my L238 case? Or perhaps FullGenomes Y Prime?

Best regards,Timo

GoldenHind
08-24-2014, 06:04 PM
Hi again,
I am considering to take Big-Y test in coming months. What do you think here, would this test be the best /most cost effective for my L238 case? Or perhaps FullGenomes Y Prime?

Best regards,Timo

I believe Y Prime would give you more information. However the full benefit from it would require other L238+ results to compare against your results, and as far as I know, there aren't any. Perhaps they will come in time.

On the other hand, here are a few other L238's who have taken the Big Y. What is needed is someone who has access to their raw data with the time and technical expertise to compare them.

GoldenHind
08-26-2014, 06:22 PM
A further thought re the Big Y vs. Y Prime for L238 individuals. If the latter comes with an analysis by Greg M of FGC, it would be extremely helpful. He is excellent at comparing new SNPs with those found in other databases, such as 1000 Genomes. It would be worth looking into before you decide. You get no analysis at all with the Big Y.

fletch
09-12-2014, 06:03 PM
A new group has started on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/groups/R1b.L238/ for those who are interested in L238.

Gizbar
10-03-2014, 06:14 AM
I belong to the L238 branch with ancestors from Västergötland / Westcoast of Sweden. There is a good connection between me and a family with early medieval roots, the nobility Svan/Swan. They had domains not far from where my eldest ancestor had their living (just kilometers away). That´s the border region between Halland and Västegötland. I know of one man Svan with L238 with whom I´m in contact.

So the spread geographicaly over the L238 area must be older than early medieval times.

rms2
10-04-2014, 02:04 PM
A Scandinavian guy tried to join the R L21 and Subclades Project yesterday, but he was L21- and L238+. I don't recall his kit number, etc., but I directed him to the R1b-P312 Project. Hopefully, he joined it.

fletch
10-05-2014, 07:15 PM
gizbar - hi - what is your ftdna kit no?

GoldenHind
10-05-2014, 09:51 PM
deleted duplicated post.

GoldenHind
10-05-2014, 09:53 PM
I belong to the L238 branch with ancestors from Västergötland / Westcoast of Sweden. There is a good connection between me and a family with early medieval roots, the nobility Svan/Swan. They had domains not far from where my eldest ancestor had their living (just kilometers away). That´s the border region between Halland and Västegötland. I know of one man Svan with L238 with whom I´m in contact.

So the spread geographicaly over the L238 area must be older than early medieval times.

If you haven't already done so, please join the R1b-P312 and Subclades Project at FTDNA (assuming you have done any testing with FTDNA). If you need help doing so, please let me know.

GoldenHind
10-14-2014, 05:53 PM
A new R1b-L238 project has been established at FTDNA. Everyone who has tested L238+ is requested to join. However it is also requested that they continue to remain in the R1b-P312 and Subclades Project as well. It is a comparatively small group and we don't want it divided into two different projects. Hence the request for everyone who is L238+ to be in both projects.

Perhaps someone who is part of the L238 Facebook group could post the message there as well.

TimoT
10-14-2014, 09:21 PM
Thank you for already mentioning the new L238 project here.

Link to this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L238/default.aspx?section=yresults

The project is established by the same people who belong to L238 Facebook group.

Best regards, Timo

GoldenHind
10-14-2014, 10:34 PM
Thank you for already mentioning the new L238 project here.

Link to this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L238/default.aspx?section=yresults

The project is established by the same people who belong to L238 Facebook group.

Best regards, Timo

Thanks very much. It looks as if an SNP below L238 has finally been identified: PF4581. Did this come from the Big Y? Does anyone know if it is available for a la carte testing from FTDNA?

As for Z2245 and Z2247, these were found to be present in two English L238 samples from the 1000 Genomes Project. Current thinking is that they are phylogenetically equivalent to L238, as I believe everyone who is L238+ who has tested for them has been positive for both, and no one has tested positive for either of them who is L238-.

GoldenHind
10-22-2014, 10:33 PM
Thanks very much. It looks as if an SNP below L238 has finally been identified: PF4581. Did this come from the Big Y? Does anyone know if it is available for a la carte testing from FTDNA?



I am informed by TimoT that PF4581 does in fact come from Big Y results, and has only been found in one L238 person. Since it is apparently absent in several other L238 Big Y results, it may very well be private.

Gizbar
10-25-2014, 09:20 AM
Got the results from the YDNA67 test and DYS446 is confirmed 15. Have read that the value 13 is what to suspect when belonging to L238. Which STR-values is there a consensus about regarding L238?

GoldenHind
10-25-2014, 05:50 PM
Got the results from the YDNA67 test and DYS446 is confirmed 15. Have read that the value 13 is what to suspect when belonging to L238. Which STR-values is there a consensus about regarding L238?

On the contrary, while 13 at 446 is modal for P312, those who are L238 generally have 15 there, as you do. This is two steps from the modal. I believe there are even some L238's who have 16 there.

The off modals identified by Ken Nordtvedt for his R1b-Nor[se] variety, which is the same as L238, are as follows, with modals for R1b in parentheses:

385a/b 11,13 (modal 11,14)
439 11 (12)
441 14 (13)
446 15 (13)

He apparently got 441 from the SMGF database. It is only included at FTDNA in the 111 marker panel, or by special order.

Although not identified by Nordtvedt- doubtless because he didn't have the data available- I have noticed that those who are L238+ also tend to have:

534 17 (15)

Most of those who are L238+ will have all or most of these off modals. There is only one L238+ person I know of who doesn't.

GoldenHind
10-26-2014, 07:41 PM
Some may be interested in the numerical count and origin of those in the R1b-P312 and Subclades project who have tested L238+.

Norway 13
Sweden 7
UK/England 3
Finland 2
Denmark 1
Scotland 1
Unknown (USA with English surnames) 2
Total 29

GoldenHind
10-29-2014, 10:23 PM
There is someone with German ancestry who has tested L238+. Perhaps not surprisingly, his ancestry is from Ostfriesland.

Svan
11-13-2014, 11:16 PM
The Ysearch calculation was made that Gizbar and Svan have a genetic distance of 17. Running the graph on that, it showed about 90 generations to the most recent common ancestor with 90-100% surety. At 3 generations per century, that is 1000 BC, which blows the 1000-1200 year old theory for L238 out of the water. That can't be right, can it??? Or is it possible to have a mrca before the beginning of a subclade?

GoldenHind
11-15-2014, 07:00 PM
The Ysearch calculation was made that Gizbar and Svan have a genetic distance of 17. Running the graph on that, it showed about 90 generations to the most recent common ancestor with 90-100% surety. At 3 generations per century, that is 1000 BC, which blows the 1000-1200 year old theory for L238 out of the water. That can't be right, can it??? Or is it possible to have a mrca before the beginning of a subclade?

To answer the last question first, two people who are both L238+ cannot have a most recent common ancestor who lived before the first man to have the L238 mutation.

With regard to TMRCA calculations, it is not an exact science. STR markers mutate randomly and not in any predictable pattern. The best that can be done is to estimate probabilities.

However if there are number of L238+ people who have large GDs from other L238s, that would push back the date for the likely birth of the subclade. I doubt very much we have heard the last word about when L238 first appeared.

One aspect I have pondered about L238 is that if it was in existence prior to the Migration age, why hasn't it been found in those parts of Europe overrun by various Germanic tribes which are thought to have originated in Scandinavia? The Vandals, Visigoths, Herules etc. must have left some genetic traces in places where they settled like Iberia and Italy.

GoldenHind
11-18-2014, 11:00 PM
A new L238+ has been identified from a Big Y test. The best I can determine, his ancestors were Ulster Scots. Even though his Big Y results show he is L238+, FTDNA is still listing him as undifferentiated P312, and L238 appears in blue on his haplotree page, suggesting he should order it!

EDIT: In checking this person's results, I see that he is not a very good match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety. He only matches it on one marker, 439=11. Since he has 111 markers, he also has results for 441, one of the markers Nordtvedt used, and he has modal 13 rather than the characteristic Norse 15. There are various possible explanations, but I think it requires further investigation.

Svan
11-30-2014, 06:57 PM
How is it possible that 2 people with L238+ can have a genetic distance of 17 at 37 markers, and one of those people has a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers with people who are R-M269, R-DF21 and R-L2? This really defies logic, and to the uneducated, it makes the whole science seem like hocus-pocus, and a waste of time and money. I have been challenged to explain this by a person I tried to talk into getting tested, but I can't explain it at all.

Gray Fox
11-30-2014, 07:20 PM
Its coincidence based on a common origin and a very successful y-chromosome. Meaning all of the sub-groups you mentioned descend from P312, so they will all be somewhat similar to the original modal for P312. Variations in str's can and do occur and can lead to two different (but similar in that they both have a common P312 ancestor) sub clades having a small genetic distance. Anyone who's taken a y-dna test will have matches that are close that are not within the same sub-group. There are so many descendants of the P312 modal group that variation will eventually present what you are describing.

VinceT
12-01-2014, 03:26 AM
It's one of the pitfalls of comparing the first 37 markers: markers 13-37 were chosen because they were highly mutable, providing hope that they could provide resolution for surname studies within the past 200-500 years, which they do. As for time spans beyond that, they're kind of rubbish, and you need to counterpoint them with the extended panels (markers 38-67 and in some cases 68-111), which contain more stable markers to counter-balance the set.

Even so, The general consensus is that SNPs tend to trump STRs regardless, especially for most R1b... haplogroups. STR analysis has turned away from relying on simple genetic distances and toward using "motif" or "signature" patterns as a means for SNP prediction.

GoldenHind
12-01-2014, 06:31 PM
Another way of explaining the anomaly is to point out that the STR markers which have mutated in the different descents in question will not necessarily be those included in FTDNA's 37 marker panel.

There are far more STR markers on the Y chromosome than even those in FTDNA's 111 marker panel.

fletch
12-02-2014, 07:09 PM
How things have changed. Eight years ago, respected academics were writing books based on 12 or so markers(Sykes, Oppenheimer). Now, even 37 markers is considered insufficient despite the vast statistical analyses by so many 'amateurs'. The age of L238 still fascinates me. If 'old', say 2000 yrs, then how come L238 is not found more widely? It only needed one to escape the apparent homeland of Norway/Scandinavia (admittedly based on our small sample of some 30 L238's so far) to eg the UK and thence the US and L238 should be popping up all over the place. On the other hand, if 'new', say 1000yrs, how come the STR's differ so much - or is that the explanation in the posts above?

ADW_1981
12-02-2014, 07:24 PM
How things have changed. Eight years ago, respected academics were writing books based on 12 or so markers(Sykes, Oppenheimer). Now, even 37 markers is considered insufficient despite the vast statistical analyses by so many 'amateurs'. The age of L238 still fascinates me. If 'old', say 2000 yrs, then how come L238 is not found more widely? It only needed one to escape the apparent homeland of Norway/Scandinavia (admittedly based on our small sample of some 30 L238's so far) to eg the UK and thence the US and L238 should be popping up all over the place. On the other hand, if 'new', say 1000yrs, how come the STR's differ so much - or is that the explanation in the posts above?

Why would it be? A good number of these lineages die out. I would be interested in comparing the distribution of R1a-L448 with R1b-L238. I can think of a scenario if the R1a ancestor was a Orkney viking (or a handful of closely related males) who settled on small islands in the north. Over a few centuries he/they may have saturated the small islands who had very few immigrants. In later times, these lineages, who are now many, spread with Scots to their modern distribution today.

If R1b-L238 was equally viking but perhaps a Swede or Dane, he/they may not have had the same selective advantage the Orkney vikings had. Of course, this all assuming L448 spread with Norwegians and not simply an older people of the northern UK :)

TimoT
12-04-2014, 05:10 PM
Here is the unofficial Novel variant/SNP tree of L238, based on the raw data and matches information I (as one of the admins in L238 FTDNA project) have been able to collect from six Big Y tested persons. Raw data I used were the variants.vcf and regions.bed files. The novel variants are numbered by their location in Y DNA.

3112

With more Big Y tests in the future (I bought mine today!) and uploading of these results to YFull-service the SNP tree will get more official.

It can be seen that an early separation to Scandinavian and Non-Scandinavian branches has taken place (of course more results will be needed to make this sure).

Every tested person has approximately 30 mutations that have taken place after L238. This provides new material also for the age estimations of L238.

TimoT
12-04-2014, 11:10 PM
Perhaps it would be interesting for some people to see how I have worked with the raw data: Namely, I uploaded both the variants.vcf and regions.bed files (of every tested six persons) to a program named IGV. This program allows to test two things in a particular Y Chromosome location:
- is this location covered by every persons test (perhaps the biggest problem with the Big Y test is that the Y Chromosome area covered by the test differs from a person to person).
- which one of the tested persons have a (novel variant or SNP) mutation in this particular location.

For example, the location 14414973 (names are hidden here):
-blue lines below show that this location is covered by every persons' test
-red rectangles with two Swedish persons (upper part) express that they have this mutation. Other people do not have those red rectangles (not visible here because the display would need some scrolling).
3114


Second example, location 22467318:
-again two persons have a mutation here (indicated by red rectangles)
-however, the regions.bed information shows that this location was not covered by two persons test (discontinuity of the blue line at this point)
Therefore this mutation (unfortunately) can not be used in our tree.

3115

After checking all the possible locations (derived from matching lists and information from a DF19 project administrator) I collected these on an Excell sheet for a better visuality. The principle was that a mutation shared by everyone must be elder than those with only some persons. Here is a cropped pic from the bottom of the sheet, showing L238, Z2245/7 and first ones of the Scandinavian branch mutations (non-Scandinavians guys have not those).
3116

The bolded mutations here were taken into our tree and two (17304752 and 21295175) were omitted, because of the lacking coverage.

So far it has been quite difficult to get any feedback on this working method I've used (but I do not see what could be too wrong ;) Anyway, this system and results of it will be tested in coming months, when people start sending their Big Y results to YFull service.

GoldenHind
12-04-2014, 11:35 PM
Why would it be? A good number of these lineages die out. I would be interested in comparing the distribution of R1a-L448 with R1b-L238. I can think of a scenario if the R1a ancestor was a Orkney viking (or a handful of closely related males) who settled on small islands in the north. Over a few centuries he/they may have saturated the small islands who had very few immigrants. In later times, these lineages, who are now many, spread with Scots to their modern distribution today.

If R1b-L238 was equally viking but perhaps a Swede or Dane, he/they may not have had the same selective advantage the Orkney vikings had. Of course, this all assuming L448 spread with Norwegians and not simply an older people of the northern UK :)

The current data, which is always subject to change, clearly shows L238 is most common in Norway, and apparently rather rare in Denmark, with Sweden somewhere in between. I think it is highly probable that in Finland got there from Sweden at some point.

I suspect there is more L238 outside of Scandinavia than has been found to date. Most of those who have tested L238+ are Scandinavians who have been recruited to test for L238 based on their matching the off modal markers of Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety. However the Ulster Scot who was recently identified as L238+ in a Big Y test is not a good match at all for that STR signature. The possibility has to be considered that some unknown portion of L238 does not match the "Norse" STR signature and thus can't be identified by STR markers.

In any case I think it is quite likely that L238 is considerably smaller in size and distribution than the large P312 subclades of L21, U152 and DF27.

Svan
01-11-2015, 05:10 PM
I have a result for DYS534 with a value of 16 but it's not showing up in the projects. I've also signed up for the upgrade from 37 to 111. I know Big Y is more informative, I will get there eventually.

GoldenHind
01-11-2015, 06:51 PM
I have a result for DYS534 with a value of 16 but it's not showing up in the projects. I've also signed up for the upgrade from 37 to 111. I know Big Y is more informative, I will get there eventually.

For some reason, STRs ordered individually do not show up in project results. I ordered DYS463 a couple of years ago while investigating a potential STR cluster. The result does not even show up on my STR page, and only appears by using the YDNA-Advanced Orders tab.

Svan
02-05-2015, 12:37 AM
My 111 results have come in and are posted on the L238 group. It's strange that I am now classified as M-269. Does that mean I am not really L-238?

VinceT
02-05-2015, 05:02 AM
If you have tested L238+. no it doesn't. All it means is that FTDNA's computer system thinks that you are somewhere below M269, which L238 is. FTDNA's I.T. dept. has not explicitly informed FTDNA's computer system that L238 is below M269, and it may be years before they do so.

GoldenHind
02-05-2015, 08:28 PM
My 111 results have come in and are posted on the L238 group. It's strange that I am now classified as M-269. Does that mean I am not really L-238?

I suggest you contact FTDNA, point out that you have tested L238+, and request they change your classification to R1b-L238. I have had to do this for some DF99 individuals, when they classified some as DF99 and some as P312, even though all of them tested DF99+. If you don't get a satisfactory response, let me know and I will see what I can do.

Svan
02-28-2015, 05:28 PM
Someone at FTDNA must have heard the discussion, as I am now listed as R-L238, even on the SNP certificate. I am tempted to go for the Big-Y but the jump from 111 to it, at $575, is just a bridge too far, especially considering that going from 37 to 111 did not seem to produce anything new.

This might be a good time, after 10 pages of this discussion, to summarize how far L238 has come, and what can be achieved down the road. I would really like to be convinced that Big-Y will be worth the investment.

Huntergatherer1066
02-28-2015, 07:53 PM
BigY goes on sale a few times a year for $475, it's still a chunk of money but not as a big of a hit as $575.

GoldenHind
03-01-2015, 01:01 AM
Someone at FTDNA must have heard the discussion, as I am now listed as R-L238, even on the SNP certificate. I am tempted to go for the Big-Y but the jump from 111 to it, at $575, is just a bridge too far, especially considering that going from 37 to 111 did not seem to produce anything new.

This might be a good time, after 10 pages of this discussion, to summarize how far L238 has come, and what can be achieved down the road. I would really like to be convinced that Big-Y will be worth the investment.

Timo has been engaged in analyzing a number of L238 Big Y results, and has tentatively identified several different subclades beneath L238. You might want to discuss this with him.

Svan
04-03-2015, 03:17 PM
Several years ago, Dr. Anatole Klyosov wrote a paper on "Irish Haplotypes and Haplogroups" that included "an unassigned small branch" with the same numbers as R-L238. I wrote him and asked about it, and to my surprise, he replied and asked me to supply him with "all R1b-L238 along with DF-19" and questions, and said he would look into it upon receipt of the data. I don't have that data and I am a little over my head here, actually a lot over, so I am asking for some help with it. I have read that Dr. Klyosov is controversial, but it can't hurt to challenge what we think we know. Can anyone give me a hand with this?

GoldenHind
04-07-2015, 07:30 PM
Svan has asked me for some unanswered questions regarding L238. Since they may be of interest to others, I will post them here.

YFull's new experimental tree proposes a formation data for L238 as 4700 YBP (years before present, or 2700 BC), which is identical to the formation dates they propose for the other subclades directly below P312: L21, DF27, U152, DF19 and DF99. However the give a TMRCA date for L238 as 3800 YBP. Does the difference indicate L238 underwent a considerable bottleneck?

L238 is the only subclade directly below P312 which has a very strong STR signature. Three of the four distinguishing STR markers first identified by Nordtvedt are among the faster mutating markers. Does this indicate a much later date for the formation of L238? Or does Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety only constitute a younger and smaller portion of L238? Are there as yet unidentified SNPs between P312 and L238?

If L238 was formed at the same time as the other P312 subclades, why is its distribution so radically different than the other P312 subclades? While every P312 subclade has at least some presence in Scandinavia, none are as geographically limited as L238.

Was L238 actually formed in Scandinavia, or did it only arrive there shortly after its formation? Where in Scandinavia did it first appear? Did it arrive with the Bell Beakers in Denmark and then spread from there to Norway and Sweden, or was its first appearance there in Norway, where it appears to be concentrated? Or is it more likely to have arrived with Corded Ware and its offshoot the Battle Axe people? Did it arrive by sea, or overland?

There seems to be no doubt L238 was present in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age, which is generally accepted as the origin of the Germanic people. It seems also to be accepted that the Germanic people flowed south out of Scandinavia beginning somewhere around 500 BC and expanded until they reached a border with the Romans along the Rhine. On the collapse of the Roman Empire, once again numerous Germanic tribes thought to have originated in Scandinavia wandered through much of Europe during the Migration Age: Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Cimbri, Teutones, Vandals, Heruli etc. ranged throughout much of the former Roman Empire and beyond. Yet to date there is only a single L238 identified on the continent outside of Scandinavia, and that comes from the North Sea coast of Germany. The Genomes of the Netherlands Project did not find a single L238 among a sample of 500 males from that country. Did L238 participate in any of these expansions of the Germanic peoples? If so, why has no L238 been found on the continent outside Scandinavia, and if not, why not?

R.Rocca
04-07-2015, 07:48 PM
There seems to be doubt L238 was present in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age...

I guess this is a question for Svan...why is there doubt and/or who is doubting it???

GoldenHind
04-07-2015, 11:02 PM
I guess this is a question for Svan...why is there doubt and/or who is doubting it???

No, that was an error on my part. I have now corrected it to say "There seems to be no doubt L238 was present in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age." I need to proof read my posts more carefully.

GoldenHind
04-10-2015, 09:18 PM
Svan has forwarded on to me the reply he received from Klyosov and asked me to summarize it here. Perhaps the only thing of interest he said concerning L238 is that he calculates a TMRCA of 2325 +/-270 years (manual calculation) and 1930 +/-310 years (Kilin-Klyosov) calculator. He also says since "conventional wisdom"indicates L238 arose about the same time as the other P312 subclades, somewhere around 4500 ybp, that L238 does in fact appear to have undergone a bottleneck. He further says that absent ancient YDNA, nothing of the history of L238 can be determined before its TMRCA of somewhere around 2000 ybp.

This is considerably younger than the TMRCA recently proposed by YFull of 3800 ybp for L238, and considerably older than the calculations posted by someone here earlier of 1000 ybp.

Webb
04-12-2015, 01:37 AM
Svan has forwarded on to me the reply he received from Klyosov and asked me to summarize it here. Perhaps the only thing of interest he said concerning L238 is that he calculates a TMRCA of 2325 +/-270 years (manual calculation) and 1930 +/-310 years (Kilin-Klyosov) calculator. He also says since "conventional wisdom"indicates L238 arose about the same time as the other P312 subclades, somewhere around 4500 ybp, that L238 does in fact appear to have undergone a bottleneck. He further says that absent ancient YDNA, nothing of the history of L238 can be determined before its TMRCA of somewhere around 2000 ybp.

This is considerably younger than the TMRCA recently proposed by YFull of 3800 ybp for L238, and considerably older than the calculations posted by someone here earlier of 1000 ybp.

What I find interesting on the YFull tree, is that of the two kits that are Z2244/L238* one is listed as being from GB. The same for the next subclade downstream, CTS11638. Then you see Sweden and Finland in the next two lower subclades. I am not suggesting a flow from Britain to Scandinavia, mind you. Just interesting that both are in the earlier split.

TimoT
04-19-2015, 10:08 PM
4392

Latest version of our L238 Project SNP tree. This includes a new BigY result (Summers). As you can see, Summers forms just a same kind of individual branch out of the largest SNP cluster (earlier named a 'Scandinavian Branch') as Mr. Räihä's does.

Summers paternal line is known only until the year 1811 and to North Carolina, USA. However, their family tradition tells the 'patriarch' could have come from Britain.
Since we can not be sure of the Summers' origins (from Britain or not), this changed the name of our biggest mutation cluster (from 'Scandinavian Branch' into just a 'Big Cluster').

Only future BigY tests will clarify this situation: if all the new results connected to the ‘Big cluster’ will be Scandinavians, this also makes Summers a one. In other case we need to find a historical location from where both the Scandinavian and British people have quite suddenly started to spread into different directions.

GoldenHind
04-20-2015, 12:09 AM
What I find interesting on the YFull tree, is that of the two kits that are Z2244/L238* one is listed as being from GB. The same for the next subclade downstream, CTS11638. Then you see Sweden and Finland in the next two lower subclades. I am not suggesting a flow from Britain to Scandinavia, mind you. Just interesting that both are in the earlier split.

I wonder if those two could be from the 1000 Genomes Project, which had only two L238+, both from Britain. If so, it is entirely possible that the 1KG Project did not test for any of the SNPs found below L238 in the Big Y. As far as I know, no L238's have tested with Full genomes, so I don't know where else Yfull could have got their data for those two. I don't believe any of the L238s who ordered the Big Y were L238*.

ADW_1981
04-20-2015, 03:26 AM
4392

Latest version of our L238 Project SNP tree. This includes a new BigY result (Summers). As you can see, Summers forms just a same kind of individual branch out of the largest SNP cluster (earlier named a 'Scandinavian Branch') as Mr. Räihä's does.

Summers paternal line is known only until the year 1811 and to North Carolina, USA. However, their family tradition tells the 'patriarch' could have come from Britain.
Since we can not be sure of the Summers' origins (from Britain or not), this changed the name of our biggest mutation cluster (from 'Scandinavian Branch' into just a 'Big Cluster').

Only future BigY tests will clarify this situation: if all the new results connected to the ‘Big cluster’ will be Scandinavians, this also makes Summers a one. In other case we need to find a historical location from where both the Scandinavian and British people have quite suddenly started to spread into different directions.

There is a very substantial cluster of L238+ in Iceland, disproportionately so to that in Britain overall as per the latest Icelandic data. The implication is that it is a successful branch of P312+ in Scandinavia, followed by a spread to Britain.

TimoT
04-20-2015, 06:42 PM
It would be great to have these Icelandic L238+ people to join our FTDNA L238 Project (and to do some bigYs too ;) ). I wonder how to find the contact to them..?

GoldenHind
04-20-2015, 07:48 PM
I suspect he is referring to the Large Scale Whole Genominc Sequencing Study of Iceland reported elsewhere on this forum. There were a total of 96 who were R1b, and 17 of those were L238+. I imagine they are all anonymous. I think this is the largest concentration of L238 found in a scientific sampling of a single country. Compare it to the Genomes of the Netherlands study of 500 males, which found zero L238.

fletch
04-23-2015, 10:58 AM
At the risk of boring everyone, I repeat an earlier point, viz. the Icelandic result, though anonymous and a relatively small sample, strongly suggests an origin for L238 which concentrated for whatever reason in the Norwegian Vikings. If so, why have more L238s not been found in British Isles?

rms2
04-23-2015, 11:13 AM
At the risk of boring everyone, I repeat an earlier point, viz. the Icelandic result, though anonymous and a relatively small sample, strongly suggests an origin for L238 which concentrated for whatever reason in the Norwegian Vikings. If so, why have more L238s not been found in British Isles?

Count yourself lucky. If more L238 were turning up in the Isles, everyone would be telling you that's where it came from and that all the Scandinavian L238's are descended from British thralls or randy Scottish merchants and Irish monks.

GoldenHind
04-23-2015, 06:17 PM
Count yourself lucky. If more L238 were turning up in the Isles, everyone would be telling you that's where it came from and that all the Scandinavian L238's are descended from British thralls or randy Scottish merchants and Irish monks.

There are a few people who are nonetheless saying something along those lines.

rms2
04-23-2015, 06:24 PM
There are a few people who are nonetheless saying something along those lines.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but somehow I still am. It seems to me that if ever there was a real good Viking marker, L238 is it. I guess not a lot of people know its evolution: from Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster to the eventual discovery of the SNP, and how predominant the native Scandinavian element is in its membership.

GoldenHind
06-18-2015, 07:01 PM
An interesting new L238+ result in recently. Ancestry only from the USA, but the surname is classic Welsh. His markers are a perfect match to the R1b-Norse profile, although since he has only tested to 67 markers, he doesn't have a result for 441.

GoldenHind
09-02-2015, 11:56 PM
A new L238+ in as a result of the R1b backbone test. He is a New Zealander with an English surname. This is one that I wouldn't have predicted, as he isn't a good match to the R1b-Norse profile at all. He has 10,15 at 385 instead of the Norse 11,13 and matches the P312 modal of 13 at 446 instead of having the Norse 15 there. His only match to the Norse profile is an 11 at 439. 441 is unknown as he has only tested 67 markers.

We may have been too hasty in presuming people who aren't close matches to the Norse profile to be L238-.

VinceT
09-03-2015, 05:14 AM
A new L238+ in as a result of the R1b backbone test. He is a New Zealander with an English surname. This is one that I wouldn't have predicted, as he isn't a good match to the R1b-Norse profile at all. He has 10,15 at 385 instead of the Norse 11,13 and matches the P312 modal of 13 at 446 instead of having the Norse 15 there. His only match to the Norse profile is an 11 at 439. 441 is unknown as he has only tested 67 markers.

We may have been too hasty in presuming people who aren't close matches to the Norse profile to be L238-.

This would be an excellent candidate with which to explore the SNPs suspected of being equivalent with L238: Z2244 through Z2251, etc.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=189

TimoT
09-24-2015, 07:13 PM
At the moment we have 12 BigY tests in R1b-L238 FTDNA Project. Nine of those are also uploaded to Alex Williamson's Big Tree:

6012

Missing project kits here are two Norwegians in Sund-Braathen branch and one Swede in Larsson-Solberg branch.

Alex's service looks to function so well, that uploads to YFull are probably not so much needed anymore..

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=189

GoldenHind
10-09-2015, 06:33 PM
An interesting L238+ in recently from the R1b backbone test. He is an Austrian national with a German surname and ancestry in Austria to the early 19th century. He is only the second L238 from the continent outside of Scandinavia (the first is from the North Sea Coast of Germany). This one is considerably removed from Scandinavia. He is a perfect match to Nordtvedt's R1b Norse modal, though like most, he hasn't tested for DYS 441.

TimoT
10-16-2015, 03:23 AM
Last weekend we had five more BigY tests ordered in R1b-L238 project. This is a significant increase to our present community with only 12 tests taken.

Three of the new ones are from UK and two Norwegians; It will be very interesting to see the outcome of these.

Jsnyder
10-17-2015, 01:05 AM
Mr. Swan, were your ancestors the Swans of Jamestown? If so, Viking ancestors might have had a nodding aquaintence. Our Immigrant was at Elizabeth City for the 1624-25 Muster. Devon was their previous location. Awaiting our BigY.

Svan
10-26-2015, 03:48 PM
If there is more than 1 L-238 Swan, sorry. Unfortunately, my paternal line had no one in America until 1902, when Jules Frederick Swan arrived in New York from Bremen, Germany. That same line left Danish Halland, now in Sweden, in 1185, for Mecklenburg in Germany, and remained in Germany until Jules Swan, above.

Hope you get the answers you want from your BigY.

GoldenHind
11-05-2015, 08:59 PM
TimoT has been analyzing a number of L238 Big Y results. There is one branch which has only two people so far- one with ancestry from Northern Ireland (probably originally of Scottish origin) and the one from the North Sea coast of Germany. Unlike any of the other L238 branches he has found, neither of these two individuals match any of at least three of Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse four distinguishing STR off modals (neither has tested the fourth- 441).

I think at the very least the former practice of predicting L238- status based on the failure to match Nordtvedt's Norse off-modal markers has to be abandoned. On the flip side, those who do match this modal are virtually guaranteed to be L238+. In other words, Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety is only a portion, though probably a majority, of L238.

fletch
11-06-2015, 09:54 AM
Goldenhind: agreed but could it be, looking at Timo's tree of today, that the branches without the characteristic markers are not Scandinavian and thus "Norse" was correct all along?

GoldenHind
11-06-2015, 06:43 PM
Goldenhind: agreed but could it be, looking at Timo's tree of today, that the branches without the characteristic markers are not Scandinavian and thus "Norse" was correct all along?

I'm not sure I follow your question. Since Nordtvedt's R1b-"Norse" variety is primarily, though not exclusively found in Scandinavia, it seems a valid description.

So far there is only one L238 Big Y branch, consisting of two people, which does match Nordtvedt's profile. I think it is possible that both of them could ultimately be of Scandinavian origin. We will just have to wait to know how large this group turns out to be. Most people who have tested for L238 did so because they matched the Norse modal. With the new FTDNA R1b backbone test, others will be identified who don't match that signature.

My point was merely that Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse variety appears to be only a part of L238. How large the other part is, and what their modern distribution is, remains to be seen.

fletch
11-07-2015, 12:17 AM
I'm sorry Goldenhind. Perhaps I jumped a little quickly in my surmise, as you clearly haven't seen Timo's latest tree, version 1.10 of today. In it there are now four people before the 'Intermediate Cluster' plus one GBR from Yfull. I only know the ht's of 3, the one from Ireland/Scotland not matching the Norse modal in the same way as the two you mention. This sprinkling of non-matches seems to be pointing away from Scandinavia.

TimoT
11-16-2015, 09:56 PM
6638

L238 SNP Tree version 1.12
We have now altogether 18 BigY results combined in this tree.

I will tomorrow post a picture of this version, that also shows the Nordtvedt specific STR values attached to each BigY kit.

TimoT
11-17-2015, 08:18 AM
6645

So here are now also the 'Nordtvedt-specific' STR values displayed, together with all our BigY results. The values are on Blue colour, if those meet the Nordtvedt criteria DYS385=11-13, DYS439=11, DYS446=15 and DYS441= 14 (STR111 panel value).

I have also included here the STR values of our project member (most distant paternal ancestor Carsten Svan, b.1170, Halland, Sweden) whose values differ from the Nordtvedt modal but known paternal origins still from Scandinavia.

(EDIT: I had to reload new versions of this picture, since not all the kits had correct STR values. The wrong picture versions remain as thumbnails here, for an hour or so).

fletch
11-17-2015, 08:53 AM
Interesting. We don't know where Carsten Svan fits, but I match all 5 Nordtvedt markers and am in the Big Cluster. Including me, only 2(Laugesgard, Kaasen) out of 15 from the Big Cluster do not match on all or all but one Nordtvedt markers. However, three of the four not from the Big Cluster whose STRs are known, have three or more mismatches.

fletch
11-17-2015, 08:59 AM
I missed Timo's edit. We DO know all four non-Big Cluster STRs, so reread my last sentence as 'all four mismatch by at least two markers'.

TimoT
01-31-2016, 08:53 PM
R1b-L238 SNP Tree version 1.18:

We have got 3 new BigY results that are all to be seen on page 1.

-MDKA: B. Andersson b.1698 Nyed, Värmland, Sweden
-one non-project kit MDKA: Lars Joneson, b. 1804, Norway
-MDKA: W. Parker, b. 1598 Devon,England


75647563

lgmayka
02-08-2016, 08:23 PM
Kit 109663 of Poland has tested
L238+
Z2246+
Z2245-
Z2247-
Z2248-

YFull shows all these SNPs on the same level (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2244/). The Big Tree (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=189) separates Z2247 and Z2248 into a separate level, but still includes Z2245 with L238 and Z2246.

Does that mean that #109663 is the earliest known offshoot of R-L238 ?

GoldenHind
02-08-2016, 08:39 PM
Kit 109663 of Poland has tested
L238+
Z2246+
Z2245-
Z2247-
Z2248-

YFull shows all these SNPs on the same level (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2244/). The Big Tree (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=189) separates Z2247 and Z2248 into a separate level, but still includes Z2245 with L238 and Z2246.

Does that mean that #109663 is the earliest known offshoot of R-L238 ?

Possibly so. I think he may be the first to be L238+ and negative for Z2245, Z2257 and Z2248. I would defer to Timo on this, as he has spent a great deal of time studying L238 Big Y results. I believe he is also likely to be the most easterly L238 example to date, and certainly so outside of Scandinavia.

Please ask him to join both the R-L238 project. I note he is already in the P312 Project, previously classified as probably P312** (obviously erroneously).

TimoT
02-09-2016, 11:24 PM
Hi,
this really is a nice and interesting finding! Yes, it will be the earliest known branching of our L238 SNP Tree and will sort our SNPs in the following way
7700


(This results leaves still six of the 'Oldest Cluster' mutations (e.g. Z2244, Z2249) unsorted since these mutations are not included in the P312 SNP pack test.)

I wish this Polish person would soon join our project :)

Timo

GoldenHind
02-10-2016, 12:13 AM
Having taken the time to look at this, his results are very illuminating. He does not match the Norse STR modal on any of the markers included in the first 67. This is very strong evidence that the Scandinavian portion of L238, formerly thought to be equivalent with L238, only comprises a younger branch of the subclade, and that L238 itself probably originated outside of Scandinavia. Presumably its descendants expanded fairly rapidly after eventually reaching there, where it currently appears to be most numerous. This is also fairly strong evidence that negative L238 status cannot be predicted solely based on the failure to match the Norse STR modal.

lgmayka
02-10-2016, 01:13 AM
I wish this Polish person would soon join our project :)
I have asked the kit's custodian for permission to do the join.
EDIT: Done.

GoldenHind
02-12-2016, 12:55 AM
Another unexpected L238+ result today from the P312 pack test. Although he doesn't have a result for DYS441, he doesn't match any of the other Norse off modal markers. He appears to be an Irish national in co. Wicklow. I believe that was an area of Viking settlement, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. Since the P312 pack contains a number of SNPs below L238, I will wait for Timo to have a look at his results.

TimoT
02-15-2016, 11:53 AM
This latest Irish entry is really interesting also. It branches out from the early phase, from the small Z2247&Z2248 Cluster.

Those lats week's new entries are both combined below:

7794

Dubhthach
02-15-2016, 01:42 PM
Another unexpected L238+ result today from the P312 pack test. Although he doesn't have a result for DYS441, he doesn't match any of the other Norse off modal markers. He appears to be an Irish national in co. Wicklow. I believe that was an area of Viking settlement, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. Since the P312 pack contains a number of SNPs below L238, I will wait for Timo to have a look at his results.

Wicklow is generally regarded as a placename of Norse origin (some opt for Vikinga-ló as source), obviously you have major Norse settlement of Dublin to North, than coastal towns of Wicklow and Arklow (in modern County Wicklow), and Wexford to South

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin-vikings.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/laighin01.jpg

Dubhthach
02-15-2016, 01:51 PM
This latest Irish entry is really interesting also. It branches out from the early phase, from the small Z2247&Z2248 Cluster.

Those lats week's new entries are both combined below:

7794

Tyner is a surname I've never heard of, had to look it up. Seem's it was quite rare in 19th century Ireland (Griffith Survey) key concentration in Cork (another Viking founded city in Ireland -- though perhaps not relevant), see map here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Tyner&UserID=

The 1 Wicklow household is probably connected to this testee.

TimoT
02-17-2016, 02:08 PM
All these latest developments are now combined to our L238 SNP Tree version 2.2.

We have had nine new results in two months, and this divides our Tree to a four-page long presentation:

7827782878297830

TimoT
03-11-2016, 03:56 PM
So far multiple SNP Test ' R1b P312 SNP Pack' has worked very well by our project members, but last week we had a drawback in this. One of our British project members received this kind of test result, that just has to be wrong:

8101


-as you can see, there are two of the 'Intermediate Cluster' mutations marked negative, while having some of the later phase 'Big Cluster' mutations positive.

This kind of outcome does not fit into the idea of a SNP Tree that has historically always developed from earlier phases towards the present.

Our SNP Tree structure is made of 21 BigY results covering the area of 'Intermediate Cluster', and this same historical formation is also to be seen in YFull tree and also Alex Williamson's BigTree.

jdean
03-11-2016, 04:16 PM
So far multiple SNP Test ' R1b P312 SNP Pack' has worked very well by our project members, but last week we had a drawback in this. One of our British project members received this kind of test result, that just has to be wrong:

8101


-as you can see, there are two of the 'Intermediate Cluster' mutations marked negative, while having some of the later phase 'Big Cluster' mutations positive.

This kind of outcome does not fit into the idea of a SNP Tree that has historically always developed from earlier phases towards the present.

Our SNP Tree structure is made of 21 BigY results covering the area of 'Intermediate Cluster', and this same historical formation is also to be seen in YFull tree and also Alex Williamson's BigTree.

Are you looking at the results from the project SNP page or the members haplotree page, for some odd reason heterozygous calls are recorded as negative in the SNP page but are designated with an asterisk in the haplotree page.

TimoT
03-11-2016, 05:32 PM
Are you looking at the results from the project SNP page or the members haplotree page, for some odd reason heterozygous calls are recorded as negative in the SNP page but are designated with an asterisk in the haplotree page.

Thank you very much for your reply, jdean. -> Yes, I was earlier looking at the SNP page results and when now looking at the member's haplotree page, the view really is different, and the following:
8102

These problematic mutations Y11660, Y11664 and also Y10831 are marked there with an asterisk.

Actually now I do not know, what a heterozygous call means in this context.. does this mean some kind of ambiguous result?

The other problem now arises with his 'Norwegian Branch' mutations A6291&A6292 (rounded) being also heterozygous.

jdean
03-11-2016, 05:38 PM
Thank you very much for your reply, jdean. -> Yes, I was earlier looking at the SNP page results and when now looking at the member's haplotree page, the view really is different, and the following:
8102

These problematic mutations Y11660, Y11664 and also Y10831 are marked there with an asterisk.

Actually now I do not know, what a heterozygous call means in this context.. does this mean some kind of ambiguous result?

The other problem now arises with his 'Norwegian Branch' mutations A6291&A6292 (rounded) being also heterozygous.

Got to be honest I'm not completely sure but I think in this context it means the call wasn't clear, the asterisk can also mean there just wasn't a call at all though.

TimoT
03-14-2016, 05:48 AM
Here is the reply from FTDNA Help desk, when I asked them what this all should mean:

Dear XXX,

'Thank you for your email. I believe the term should be left just as a no call. While heterozygous is also correct it is confusing. It is possible that more than one result was found (an ambiguous result) at that location and since this will not meet the quality standards for the testing it gets reported as a no call. These should not be listed as negative. The reporting of these should be constant across all pages of Family Tree DNA and I have reported this to the engineering team so they can work on getting this corrected. I am sorry for the inconvenience this causes. '

-> so, at least these do not mean a negative result for the mutations concerned. I now see this specific test result as following:

8140

Even the 'Norwegian Branch ' mutations for him are not known, I assume these being negative too. I would next test if the mutation A10831 really is negative or not. And if positive, the next target would be the SFL mutations obtained by four of our other British members. (it is a pity that individual SNP testing has now to be used, to get a proper result..).

TimoT
04-17-2016, 11:43 PM
Today we received a very nice new BigY test result (most distant known ancestor: Caspersson) into our L238 Tree's Swedish Branch:

8911

This test result went more specifically there to Andersson-Jonsson branch and shares now there one mutation (18252418) from Andersson-Jonsson's previous nine common ones, leaving now eight left.

In Alex Williamson's Big Tree, the same entry is displayed in the following way:

8912


General test situation

We have now altogether 27 BigY test results and two more ones coming in in some weeks :)

Svan
04-23-2016, 05:00 AM
Just ordered Big Y for me and Carsten Svan of Halland, Sweden. Not as exciting as finding Rollo Rognvaldsen, but maybe we will learn something.

TimoT
07-31-2016, 10:20 AM
Perhaps it would be now a good time to introduce our new developments. Since the last postings, we have received perhaps ten new BigY/ 'R1b-P312 SNP pack' test results.

Picture1:
Here are the main branches and the oldest part of L238 subclade, presented in the form of mutation blocks.
The most distant known ancestors of the oldest branchings are from Poland and British Isles
OR with a British family name (thus expected to originate mainly from the British Isles).

Our Big Cluster was for the first time divided into two, by a new BigY test result (most distant known ancestor:Carsten Svan).

Picture2:
Previous chart with a different presentation: mutation chains are now opened.

Here we can see a new branch developing, starting from CTS11638: Horne & Hughes are so close STR test
matches to E. Stuart, that big part of his private mutations are probably shared with the two others.

Picture3:
Our oldest branch was started with two palindromic mutations ZZ53 & ZZ54, that were found by Alex Williamson. These mutations can not be tested as single SNPs but can be found in BigY test results.

Picture4:
So called British and Norwegian Branches

Picture5:
Swedish Branch has some very interesting highlights: Two British members (MDKA:Tenney and Scarffe) have their
most distant known ancestors in British Isles, however they are branching with present-day known Scandinavian people. So far the best explanation to this has
been that the early ancestor of this branch (with mutations BY3451, BY3453) have somehow migrated to Scandinavia from British Isles and their later descendants
have returned there, perhaps during the late viking period.

1071110712107131071410715

TimoT
07-31-2016, 10:22 AM
Also the last branch presented: Third Scandinavian Branch.10717

08-30-2017, 09:59 PM
I have R-L238 haplogroup from the
R1b - M343&M269v2 Backbone SNP Pack. What does that mean?

GoldenHind
08-30-2017, 11:30 PM
I have R-L238 haplogroup from the
R1b - M343&M269v2 Backbone SNP Pack. What does that mean?

L238 is a subclade of R(1b)-P312. While R-P312 is the most common haplogroup in Europe or at least western Europe, the L238 subclade is fairly rare. It is sometimes referred to as the "Nordic" subcalade as it is primarily, but not exclusively, found in Norway and Sweden.

TimoT
10-03-2017, 05:37 AM
Hi again,
I will upload our new L238 tree versions here after we have received the five yet pending BigY results, those were ordered during the August FTDNA sales campaign.
Our development can also be monitored in the BigTree:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2556

and also in YFull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L238/

This screenshot is displaying the current situation in BigTree

19120

02-12-2018, 11:52 PM
You have done some really good work with the Big-Y.

Jrj84105
03-17-2018, 08:40 PM
New to his forum and just learning about L238 result from 23 and me. I had a generic R1B result previously from ancestry before it appears L238 was described.

My paternal ancestor emigrated to the US from Denmark I believe in the early 19th century (Jacobsen was last name at that time).. The lineage in Denmark ai think goes back to early 18th or late 17th c. I’m visiting my grandmother next month, and she’s the family genealogist. It’s been a long time since I looked at the family tree with her, but prior to all the Anderson, Christensen, Pedersen last names, I think the earliest was something like Kjar or Kvar or something similar that we didn’t know the origin of.

Other than getting that paternal lineage copied, what other info should I be looking for? Also, are there more detailed tests that I could get? I don’t mind spending a little money or sharing results.

Thanks in advance.

rms2
03-17-2018, 08:48 PM
If you are really interested and don't mind spending some more money, you ought to get a y-dna STR test (the 111-marker test is best) and then follow up with the Big Y to find out what your terminal SNP downstream of L238 is.

Jrj84105
03-17-2018, 09:10 PM
If you are really interested and don't mind spending some more money, you ought to get a y-dna STR test (the 111-marker test is best) and then follow up with the Big Y to find out what your terminal SNP downstream of L238 is.
Thanks. I ordered the 111 from ftDNA. I don't see the Big Y in their test menu. Is that added on once you have the 111 results?

Dewsloth
03-17-2018, 09:22 PM
Thanks. I ordered the 111 from ftDNA. I don't see the Big Y in their test menu. Is that added on once you have the 111 results?

They make it available onscreen once someone orders any level STR test. I don’t remember if they wait until the results are complete or immediately after ordering. Good luck. L238 is a fascinating haplogroup.

Jrj84105
03-17-2018, 10:01 PM
I just figured out that there’s a pretty strong probability that my Y lineage is/was in the SMGF data that Nordtvedt used to describe the Norse group, so probably nothing new to be learned/found. Oh well, I guess I will see what shakes out.

rms2
03-18-2018, 04:34 PM
I just figured out that there’s a pretty strong probability that my Y lineage is/was in the SMGF data that Nordtvedt used to describe the Norse group, so probably nothing new to be learned/found. Oh well, I guess I will see what shakes out.

I'm guessing you could learn plenty that's new from your STR matches at Family Tree DNA and from the results of the Big Y once you get them.

GoldenHind
03-18-2018, 05:07 PM
I just figured out that there’s a pretty strong probability that my Y lineage is/was in the SMGF data that Nordtvedt used to describe the Norse group, so probably nothing new to be learned/found. Oh well, I guess I will see what shakes out.

That may well be the case, but most of the L238 in Scandinavia found so far has been from Norway and Sweden. Although Nordtvedt did say it is present in Denmark as well, I believe not much has been found there to date, so your results are important. If you haven't already done so, please join the L238 project at FTDNA.

Jrj84105
04-05-2018, 02:56 AM
If you haven't already done so, please join the L238 project at FTDNA.

Done.

TimoT
04-21-2018, 03:55 PM
I now upload the present L238 SNP Tree with all its' branches2271422715227162271722718

TimoT
04-21-2018, 03:58 PM
more branches here :) 22719227202272122722

GoldenHind
04-21-2018, 05:22 PM
I find it very interesting that the man from Poland is at the bottom of your tree. Perhaps this indicates that L238 spread from a location in eastern Europe?

TimoT
04-21-2018, 06:37 PM
Yes, this first known branch could indicate of the Eastern origin.

When looking at the most distant known ancestors of these BigY tested people -> First 11 tests are all either from Continental Europe or British Isles (or at least with a British surname).

Scandinavian people are appearing only after the 16 mutations-long phase named 'Big Cluster'.

Jrj84105
05-04-2018, 03:25 AM
So I came back as R-M269 but am now listed in the L238 ungrouped cohort (I'm 840734)

My two closest matches are kit 612208 from the L238 British Branch and kit 663590 from the L238 Swedish Branch.

Genealogy hit a bit of a roadblock as my grandma had loaned out her book with that line (only existing copy-yikes).

So for now it ends with Anders Madsen b1768. His son
Jacob Andersen was born October 22, 1798, in Hjørring, Nordjylland, Denmark.

GoldenHind
05-04-2018, 11:22 PM
So I came back as R-M269 but am now listed in the L238 ungrouped cohort (I'm 840734)

My two closest matches are kit 612208 from the L238 British Branch and kit 663590 from the L238 Swedish Branch.

Genealogy hit a bit of a roadblock as my grandma had loaned out her book with that line (only existing copy-yikes).

So for now it ends with Anders Madsen b1768. His son
Jacob Andersen was born October 22, 1798, in Hjørring, Nordjylland, Denmark.

Have you informed project administrator of your L238+ result from 23andme? He may not pick it up from this forum.

Incidentally the location you list in northern Jutland is the same Amt/County that one of my Danish ancestors came from.

Jrj84105
05-05-2018, 12:22 AM
Have you informed project administrator of your L238+ result from 23andme? He may not pick it up from this forum.

Incidentally the location you list in northern Jutland is the same Amt/County that one of my Danish ancestors came from.

I posted the same post on the R1b-L238 group activity feed earlier today (not sure this is the appropriate route). I went to the FT-DNA L238 list and found an exact match only to realize it was me, so they’d already added me to the L238 ungrouped cohort.

familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L238?iframe=yresults

That’s a cool coincidence. I haven’t looked much into seeing what the haplogroup makeup of that specific area is, but it looks like there are some active projects comparing the makeup of the different regions of Denmark.

Also, are there any good references for picking up the basic nomenclature of the STR classification systems? I’m at least superficially knowledgeable about what STRs are and how sequencing works, but some of the terminology is foreign to me.

Ninna
06-03-2018, 08:08 PM
My son is a R-L238. He only ordered the 37 marker kit, looking to upgrade to 111. He did both FTDNA and 23 and me. Thanks, he joined the project. We are in the USA and his father was adopted so we don't have any surnames.

08-12-2018, 10:27 PM
[QUOTE=GoldenHind;280795]L238 is a subclade of R(1b)-P312. While R-P312 is the most common haplogroup in Europe or at least western Europe, the L238 subclade is fairly rare. It is sometimes referred to as the "Nordic" subcalade as it is primarily, but not exclusively, found in Norway and Sweden.

Okay. Thanks.

Jrj84105
08-19-2018, 01:57 AM
BigY came back ahead of schedule. R-BY4659 so Swedish branch for me, I think.

GoldenHind
12-16-2018, 06:54 PM
A new L238 in with a German surname and ancestry from Lower Silesia in what is now Poland but was formerly (before WW2) Germany. He is one of very few in the L238 subclade with ancestry from Germany or Austria.

TimoT
04-25-2020, 02:52 PM
Hi again friends,

after some time, here are the updates to R1b-L238 Tree.

In the first pic we have presented also some thoughts of L238 historical routes.

37305 37306 37307 37308 37309

TimoT
04-25-2020, 03:00 PM
Some more branches here
37310 37311 37312 37313 37314

TimoT
04-25-2020, 03:03 PM
..and the last ones :)

37318 37319

fogman7
05-13-2020, 12:22 AM
ok, I am new here, my name is Derek Minchey, I am L238, my ancestry is Minshull, that is the original name as it has changed over the centuries. My lineage goes back to Cheshire , England, now for the interesting part, my ancestry goes back to Leofric the first, he was born around 715 in the kingdom of East Anglia , he later became the Earl of Leicester, Chester and Lincoln, his mother was the daughter of Centwine-King of Mercia, and his father was Aelfwald King of East Anglia, and descendant of Hyrp , Hyrp was from Denmark, good probability of how the L238 spread to England? From the Danes and Norse invaders around 400 A.D.?

ADW_1981
05-20-2020, 04:01 PM
My bet is on an origin in Single Grave culture. Might be like a needle in a haystack to prove though.

GoldenHind
05-20-2020, 07:44 PM
ok, I am new here, my name is Derek Minchey, I am L238, my ancestry is Minshull, that is the original name as it has changed over the centuries. My lineage goes back to Cheshire , England, now for the interesting part, my ancestry goes back to Leofric the first, he was born around 715 in the kingdom of East Anglia , he later became the Earl of Leicester, Chester and Lincoln, his mother was the daughter of Centwine-King of Mercia, and his father was Aelfwald King of East Anglia, and descendant of Hyrp , Hyrp was from Denmark, good probability of how the L238 spread to England? From the Danes and Norse invaders around 400 A.D.?

I can't comment on your tree, but I do think that it is probable that most L238 in Britain arrived there with the various Scandinavian settlements during the Viking period, several centuries later than 400 AD.

fogman7
05-29-2020, 02:44 AM
Probably so, very likely, but it had to start with one person that mutated?

Webb
06-29-2020, 08:51 PM
I just noticed this sample on the list of the 2500 samples on the Ancient DNA thread,I4563 Iberia_BA_1d.rel.I4561 R1b1a1b1a1a2d1. Can someone confirm? According to what I found this is L238>Z2245. This is a link to that particular thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples


Edit: I went back and looked and R. Rocca had originally called this sample as DF27>Z195. Kolgeh posted the calls if you follow the link I provided so now I am not sure what to think.

Rex
07-29-2020, 07:21 PM
I recently received DNA Test results from both of my parents and my Y-Haplogroup for our Rex line is R-L238. This is what I know about our genealogy. The first Rex from our line left Krefeld, Germany in 1692 with the initial 13 Mennonite-Quakers who settled in Pennsylvania. When he left from Krefeld and traveled to Rotterdam and then London before crossing the Atlantic without his parents, he was 10 years old and his name was Hans Jorg Ruger. In Pennsylvania he changed his name from Jorg Ruger to George Rex when George I of Germany became King George I of Britain. Jorg Ruger (George Rex) started off mentoring as a Blacksmith, became a Justice of the Peace, bought lands for his various sons, and founded the oldest continuous church in Germantown, Philadelphia. Another George Rex from our line in Ohio was a Supreme Court Judge and 33rd Degree Mason. Our Ruger surname was Rutger and Hrutger prior to Ruger and was said to originate in the ancient Danish semi-legendary King Hrothgar from the Norse Sagas. According to what I've read the R-L238 Haplogroup originates with the Yamnaya Culture of the Pontic-Caspian Steppes between the Black Sea and Caspian Sea and this pairs with the Norse myth that Odin, the All Father of Norse Kings, was from the Black Sea "Scythian" people who traveled through what is now Poland to Scandinavia and introduced the Scythian Horse-Raiding Culture to the Norse tribes, transforming them into the Vikings. It should be noted that the Slavic word Bóg and Gernanic-Nordic word God both come from Odin, also known as Godan or Bogdan. To what extent these ancient legendary myths line up with genetic research isn't clear but the various mounds scattered throughout Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, Russia and to the Pontic-Caspian Steppes indicate there is some legitimacy to them. The sauna tradition among these various peoples also traces back to the Yamnaya who were said to have burned hemp in hot house ceremonies.