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Johane Derite
03-18-2018, 02:30 AM
https://i.imgur.com/Jdothlm.png





LINK: https://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/

Johane Derite
03-18-2018, 03:03 AM
From the link(Google translated as it is in Cyrillic):

The high frequencies PF7562 and Z2103 in the Balkans, Turkey, Armenia indicate, apparently, a connection with the ancient Indo-European peoples: Illyrians, Anatolians, Armenians. The low percentages of PF7562 and Z2103 in Croatia and Bosnia (for the time being there are no data for Montenegro) can be explained by the consequences of the suppression of the Great Illyrian uprising, which covered exactly these lands: the Romans sold into slavery whole Illyrian tribes, mainly to Italy, others - almost completely exterminated, some the tribes themselves moved to Dacia. Quotations from Wikipedia: "The Amantines toughly opposed the Romans and after the defeat were sold into slavery."


"Brevki lived in the middle reaches of the Sava between Vrbas and Drina and were one of the strongest and most belligerent tribes of the union." In the 6th year, immediately after the Great Illyrian Uprising began, they joined the desyatyat under the leadership of Baton I. However, after the suppression of the uprising, they were sold into slavery During the reign of Trajan, Roman citizenship was granted, and later in the Roman army there were 9 cohortes of Breucorum, which also included representatives of other tribes, many of which moved to Dacia, where they gradually merged with the local m population. "
"The Dalmatian tribes - pirusts and desidiata, almost insurmountable due to the inhabiting in the mountains, the indomitable nature, as well as the exceptional combat skills and mainly the narrowness of the wooded gorges, were suppressed only when they were almost completely killed not only under the leadership of Caesar, but by his own strength and weapons. "
"The Dawns were the first to revolt under the leadership of the Balkans and the Danube region. The role of the Daesitiates in the rebellion was immense, which contributed to their ultimate disappearance. "
"
"Azali was the name of the Illyrian tribe." After the Great Illyrian Revolt the Azali were deported by the Romans. "
"Sardeates or Sardiotai (Latin Sardeates) was an Illyrian tribe close to Jajce." Sardeates were later settled in Dacia. "
"Baridustae were an Illyrian tribe that was later settled in Dacia along with Pirustae and Sardeates."
"With the disintegration of the Roman Empire, the Gothic and Hunnic tribes raided the Balkan peninsula, forcing many Illyrians to seek refuge in the highlands."

Here is what Strabo tells us: "In former times, as I have already said, the whole of Epirus and Illyria were densely populated, although this country is uneven and rugged by mountains (for example, Tomar, Polian and some others.) Now most of the desert and inhabited areas represent only the villages and ruins. "Even the oracle in Dodon, as well as other oracles, drowned."
http://ancientrome.ru/antlitr/t.htm?a=1267805880#7-009 On the territory where the Great Illyrian uprising was taking place, today there is a bright spot not only on the R1b-Z2103 sublayer map, but also on the summary map of the ancient Balkan haplogroups E, G, J, T.

MitchellSince1893
03-18-2018, 05:16 AM
Double post

MitchellSince1893
03-18-2018, 05:18 AM
EDIT: resolved.

Johane Derite
03-18-2018, 11:36 AM
..................

Thanks, I changed it:

https://i.imgur.com/Jdothlm.png

Johane Derite
03-18-2018, 10:35 PM
"In the mythology of the ancient Greeks, the Illyrians and Celts are relatives: "A later version of this mythic genealogy gives as parents Polyphemus and Galatea, who gave birth to Celtus, Galas, and Illyrius, three brothers, progenitors respectively of Celts, Galatians and Illyrians expresses perceived similarities to Celts and Gauls on the part of the mythographe. " Carriers PF7562 and Z2103 in Bashkortostan and Dagestan are descendants of representatives of a pit archaeological culture: the sub-Bashkirs and Dagestanis are the same as the fossil remains of the Yam culture. Yamnaya culture

Iranian PF7562 and Z2103, apparently, moved to Iran together with R1a-Z93 during the Aryan migrations from the steppe. Map of the origin of the ancestors of the representatives of the subclade R1b-PF7562"


I missed this part from the article

Johane Derite
03-18-2018, 10:59 PM
I dont know if I should ask it here, but how is it possible to see if I have PF7562, Z2103 or any other sub-clade of R1b-M269? Is it possible to predict from 23andme raw data? I tried Morley's prediction tool and the prediction is only M269.

Not that I know of. YSEQ has quite cheap R1B panels that will tell you which clade you are though: https://www.yseq.net/index.php?cPath=27&osCsid=a8fff69127c197c92241b51662b5c178

Johane Derite
03-19-2018, 12:49 AM
Relevant (M269 ( xL23 ) :

http://r1b.org/imgs/M269_without_L23.png

Johane Derite
03-20-2018, 10:47 PM
Relavant also, map of R1b L51

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/05/57/ca05571d5b8d5e1d2bfc9cabdcb811fb.jpg

Johane Derite
03-21-2018, 09:55 PM
Another:

https://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/l23-map.gif?w=584&h=398

palamede
03-21-2018, 10:26 PM
Relavant also, map of R1b L51

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/05/57/ca05571d5b8d5e1d2bfc9cabdcb811fb.jpg

I have already seen this map from Robert Rocca-2012, but I didn't know the origin of the frequences given for the France. In Yfull the only French man was from the Orne department in Normandy and I am very surprized from this peak above 4% in Auvergne.

also very rare french men (or surnames) in FTDNA results

Johane Derite
03-21-2018, 10:43 PM
I have already seen this map from Robert Rocca-2012, but I didn't know the origin of the frequences given for the France. In Yfull the only French man was from the Orne department in Normandy and I am very surprized from this peak above 4% in Auvergne.

also very rare french men (or surnames) in FTDNA results

Interesting you point this out. In Savoy there is a place called the Arvan valley, Montricher-Albanne, etc.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mafSMk8tFao/T5LjWAJwEUI/AAAAAAAAD4g/q3HxBPnJLKM/s1600/arvan+valley.jpg


I remember this article(below) also mentioned some similarities with folk costume. Possible or not?


LINK : https://folkcostume.blogspot.al/2012/04/costume-of-arvan-valley-savoy-france.html




I know that in this Robert Rocca map there is no L51 in any Albanian regions, but this map is from 2012, and according to Albanian bloodlines project 26% of Albanians are R1b M269. So maybe
this pops up soon?

Trojet
03-21-2018, 11:11 PM
I know that in this Robert Rocca map there is no L51 in any Albanian regions, but this map is from 2012, and according to Albanian bloodlines project 26% of Albanians are R1b M269. So maybe
this pops up soon?

If you look at our actual results, so far all of our R1b is under Z2103 and PF7562. I do expect R1b-L51 derived lineages to eventually show up among Albanians, but I think it will be very minimal.

Johane Derite
03-29-2018, 07:41 PM
M269 frequency vs diversity:

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285.g001

From this paper: http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285

( In this image M269 is named R1b1b2: A total of 2,574 DNA samples from European males, assigned to populations based on two generations of residence, were typed for the SNP M269 [17], defining hgR1b1b2. )

(I'm dumping stuff that might be m269 relevant in this thread)

rms2
03-29-2018, 07:51 PM
I have already seen this map from Robert Rocca-2012, but I didn't know the origin of the frequences given for the France. In Yfull the only French man was from the Orne department in Normandy and I am very surprized from this peak above 4% in Auvergne.

also very rare french men (or surnames) in FTDNA results

Of course, that is a map representing modern men, none of whom is really R1b-L51*. They are modern men, after all. None of them is a throwback to the days of the original L51 ancestor. Each is derived for his own particular terminal SNP well downstream of L51, and not all the men represented on that map necessarily have the same terminal SNP.

I don't think it's of much use in helping us to figure out where L51 began. Only ancient dna can help with that task.

Johane Derite
03-29-2018, 07:54 PM
another M269 Str diversity vs frequency:

https://i.imgur.com/uAJHfd9.jpg

From this paper: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/13581102/4249771.pdf?sequence=1



(Ps: M269 is called R1b1a2-M269 in this paper and shortened to R1b1a2 in the Image's legend)