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View Full Version : "White" in Native America, not admixed.



Pappy
03-18-2018, 05:27 PM
This will be a thread disccusion about a little known fact about American Indians (Western Hemisphere people's)
A little tribe in Northern Arizona that was totally isolated from the rest of the world until the the turn of the 20th century. Moqui, now known as Hopi.
A description from the time period,

(In appearance the Moquis resembles the Caucasian rather than the Mongolian race. The facial features are a cross between pleasant and severe, and in many instances the expression is that of an unusual intelligence. The complexion is a light red-brown, the teeth snow white, and hair "jet black", coarse and long.)
End quote Dr. Oscar Loew "Popular Science Monthly" 1874

Pappy
03-18-2018, 05:30 PM
For the doubting Tomas's look at images of Adam Clark Vroman

Rolling
03-18-2018, 08:01 PM
But Hopi aren't "white". Their features are Caucasian, nothing more. Vroman picked the "whitest" to photograph. The Hopi Indian maiden in the village of Shonguapavi, ca.1901 picture certainly isn't pale.

Pappy
03-18-2018, 08:19 PM
But Hopi aren't "white". Their features are Caucasian, nothing more. Vroman picked the "whitest" to photograph. The Hopi Indian maiden in the village of Shonguapavi, ca.1901 picture certainly isn't pale.

"White" skin or "white" living?

Our skin isn't understood by genetics yet, but I'll help them.
Our skin is not pigmented, it's clear. The color you see is the tissue below, and the blood flowing within.
And the amount of "sunburn" sustained. Our skin is thicker thus we have more capillaries to show the blood.
the sun stains our skin. Without sun exposure it appears bluish green, or Olive.

Rolling
03-18-2018, 08:45 PM
"White" skin or "white" living?

Our skin isn't understood by genetics yet, but I'll help them.
Our skin is not pigmented, it's clear. The color you see is the tissue below, and the blood flowing within.
And the amount of "sunburn" sustained. Our skin is thicker thus we have more capillaries to show the blood.
the sun stains our skin. Without sun exposure it appears bluish green, or Olive.

You're the one who called them "white", not me. So tell me, skin or living.

Caucasian features doesn't equal "white", your reference
The complexion is a light red-brown, the teeth snow white, and hair "jet black", coarse and long.) End quote Dr. Oscar Loew "Popular Science Monthly" 1874



Btw, Vroman who photographed pale claimed Hopi. By far C.C. Pierce was a more authentic photographer.

J Man
03-19-2018, 04:22 PM
Genetically the original Hopi people were/are very likely just like the rest of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas...That is a mixture of ANE and ENA/East Eurasian ancestries.

Pappy
03-19-2018, 09:27 PM
Genetically the original Hopi people were/are very likely just like the rest of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas...That is a mixture of ANE and ENA/East Eurasian ancestries.

I don't know about that, J1C5 Came from there.

Pappy
03-19-2018, 09:31 PM
But Hopi aren't "white". Their features are Caucasian, nothing more. Vroman picked the "whitest" to photograph. The Hopi Indian maiden in the village of Shonguapavi, ca.1901 picture certainly isn't pale.

Got any evidence in your detraction of Vroman?

Features, Caucasian says so much even when you didn't mean it too.

And what about the Chinese railroad worker introduction of DNA?

Rolling
03-20-2018, 12:53 AM
Got any evidence in your detraction of Vroman? I'll PM you.


Features, Caucasian says so much even when you didn't mean it too. Indeed. Caucasian applies to North African, Central Asians, West Asian & South Asian too. Reference says light red-brown skin.

J Man
03-20-2018, 01:02 PM
I don't know about that, J1C5 Came from there.

J1C5?

03-20-2018, 01:35 PM
Got any evidence in your detraction of Vroman?

Features, Caucasian says so much even when you didn't mean it too.

And what about the Chinese railroad worker introduction of DNA?

If you are looking to explore the Myths & Legends of European Explorers pre Columbus, I think from Europe there is a few.
Certainly the Vikings had a camp in Newfoundland, and also in Greenland later being abandoned, it might have been feasible for them to have migrated down the Great lakes and into the Mid West from there.

Also even from my own country we have a legend of a Prince Madoc who left Wales in 1170 and landed at Mobile Alabama. Then migrated up the rivers.

Also there is an Irish legend of St Brendan, although its possible he landed in Iceland, or Shetlands or Orkney (impossible to say)

But at least at the moment I do not think there is any DNA proof for the above.
I always thought that the proof of any myths might lie in the DNA of the horses of Pre Columbus origin, if there is any?

But from what I understand the Native American Tribes are against any DNA of their ancestors at least.

Pappy
03-20-2018, 03:34 PM
I'll PM you.

Indeed. Caucasian applies to North African, Central Asians, West Asian & South Asian too. Reference says light red-brown skin.

I don't need you to harass me by PM mmkay?

We're born "white" and our skin develops color over time and sun exposure.

Pappy
03-20-2018, 03:36 PM
If you are looking to explore the Myths & Legends of European Explorers pre Columbus, I think from Europe there is a few.
Certainly the Vikings had a camp in Newfoundland, and also in Greenland later being abandoned, it might have been feasible for them to have migrated down the Great lakes and into the Mid West from there.

Also even from my own country we have a legend of a Prince Madoc who left Wales in 1170 and landed at Mobile Alabama. Then migrated up the rivers.

Also there is an Irish legend of St Brendan, although its possible he landed in Iceland, or Shetlands or Orkney (impossible to say)

But at least at the moment I do not think there is any DNA proof for the above.
I always thought that the proof of any myths might lie in the DNA of the horses of Pre Columbus origin, if there is any?

But from what I understand the Native American Tribes are against any DNA of their ancestors at least.

The OCA2 variant is over represented in this tribe, in fact the entire southwest is covered with it.

yelmex
03-24-2018, 06:40 PM
What just happened here? I have never seen any full Natives that looked white. Dear god.

rms2
03-24-2018, 08:03 PM
What just happened here? I have never seen any full Natives that looked white. Dear god.

The two prime movers in this thread have been banned, so, yeah.

procoptodon
03-28-2019, 04:22 AM
Hopi Natives Look rather asiatic to me

https://www.history.com/.image/ar_16:9%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cg_fa ces:center%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_768/MTU3OTIzNjY0NzAwNzEyOTEw/alcatraz-had-some-surprising-prisoners-hopi-mens-featured-photo.jpg

http://www.historydisclosure.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/hopi-1.jpg

Milkyway
09-20-2019, 02:39 PM
They don't look white to me.

Lori Piestewa (Hopi):
https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTU5NTU4Nzg2OTM0MTg3Njk2/lori-piestewa_square.jpg

mildlycurly
09-23-2019, 01:57 PM
Some full-blooded Native Americans have Caucasoid features. This could stem from a genetic link with the Ainu who sometimes look Caucasoid, or it could be one of those quirks of genetic recombination. It does not mean they are "white".

homunculus
09-23-2019, 02:04 PM
Wouldn't those features stem from ANE ancestry most likely?

Bealfire
09-24-2019, 04:35 AM
Some full-blooded Native Americans have Caucasoid features. This could stem from a genetic link with the Ainu who sometimes look Caucasoid, or it could be one of those quirks of genetic recombination. It does not mean they are "white".

Yeah, stronger jaw lines, thinner and longer noses are the features that confuse people.

Milkyway
10-01-2019, 10:44 PM
I think that looks can be very deceiving sometimes.... While it's true that some Native Americans may look "white", the same can be said about some whites (especially Southern and Central Europeans). I guess that's why most people assume Johnny Depp has Native American ancestors only because he has olive skin and dark brown hair and eyes.

AlexRus
10-03-2019, 09:12 PM
Anthropological features that unite people in the "white" race do not exist. The concept of "white" is an invention of the American people of the 17-19 centuries. And who is, for example, Italians or Spaniards or Slavs, Finns, Armenians, Georgians is not known. Are they “white” or “not white”? Native Americans are connected to Europe through ANE, so it is not surprising that they have something in common with Europeans.

rms2
10-04-2019, 11:47 PM
Anthropological features that unite people in the "white" race do not exist. The concept of "white" is an invention of the American people of the 17-19 centuries. And who is, for example, Italians or Spaniards or Slavs, Finns, Armenians, Georgians is not known. Are they “white” or “not white”? Native Americans are connected to Europe through ANE, so it is not surprising that they have something in common with Europeans.

I'm pretty sure the concept of a "white" race predates American whites and goes back to Europe.

In the USA, if you apply for a government job, on the standard application the "white" or European geographic race includes Europeans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, and Indians (as in India).

rms2
10-04-2019, 11:54 PM
White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.


https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

rms2
10-05-2019, 02:24 AM
Never mind.

Best to avoid controversy.

AlexRus
10-07-2019, 06:51 PM
I'm pretty sure the concept of a "white" race predates American whites and goes back to Europe.
Northwest Europeans coined the term. Eastern Europeans never distinguished themselves from other people.

rms2
10-08-2019, 12:04 AM
Northwest Europeans coined the term. Eastern Europeans never distinguished themselves from other people.

That's not true.

I'm married to a Russian and have lived in Russia. I'm familiar with derogatory Russian slang terms for a number of non-Russian peoples.

I don't believe there is a people anywhere on the face of this earth that has not distinguished itself from other people in various ways. That's just human nature.

Ruderico
10-08-2019, 12:29 AM
Northwest Europeans coined the term.

Iberians, certainly Portuguese, were using the term in the early colonial period before north America was even properly settled by other Europeans. It helped knowing what kind of person a Jose Garcia was, because Christianised natives and slaves were given "Christian" names too

passenger
10-08-2019, 02:35 AM
Northwest Europeans coined the term. Eastern Europeans never distinguished themselves from other people.

You are correct that "whiteness" is a cultural construct, and, like most modern racial classifications, didn't really emerge until late 18th-19th century (the term "white" in a racial sense in English apparently dates back to the 1670s), primarily in Western Europe and North America, though other people, including Russians caught the "scientific racism" bug pretty quickly. However, that obviously doesn't mean people before then in the "West" and around the world didn't have an in-group, out-group mentality that was partly related to physical appearance. Paintings, sculptures and written testimonies by non-Europeans of early-modern contacts with Europeans and other groups show an acute awareness of the "foreignness" of their appearance - not that that necessarily always carried negative connotations.

AlexRus
10-08-2019, 05:22 PM
That's not true.

I'm married to a Russian and have lived in Russia. I'm familiar with derogatory Russian slang terms for a number of non-Russian peoples.

I don't believe there is a people anywhere on the face of this earth that has not distinguished itself from other people in various ways. That's just human nature.
As far as I know, derogatory Russian slang against non-Russian peoples is not aimed at racial attributes. This derogatory slang emphasizes only the lack of education or low social status of migrant workers from poor countries or regions, but not their skin color and racial characteristics. The word "white / not white" is also in the slang of the Russian language, however, it was borrowed from the West at the end of the 20th century. (This does not mean that Eastern Europeans (not only Russians) are some kind of special people. This means that in the cultures of Eastern Europeans the issues of racial differences did not have time or could not take root at the state level).
And it seems strange to me that having so much information about DNA today, the word “white” is still seriously used in scientific discussions. With this word, as you yourself say, in the USA you can unite Finns and Armenians. That is, nations that are not related to each other either on a racial or genetic basis.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-10-2019, 04:12 PM
I'm pretty sure the concept of a "white" race predates American whites and goes back to Europe.

In the USA, if you apply for a government job, on the standard application the "white" or European geographic race includes Europeans, North Africans, Middle Easterners, and Indians (as in India).

Wait I thought they come under Asians - Others, along with Pakistanis and rest of South Asians.

parasar
10-11-2019, 01:03 AM
Wait I thought they come under Asians - Others, along with Pakistanis and rest of South Asians.

Yes that is correct. They have not been included in the umbrella 'white' for some time.

Asian 1980 US census: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes "Asian Indian", "Chinese", "Filipino", "Korean", "Japanese", "Vietnamese", and "Other Asian"

Prior to this they were considered white. But some Indians objected and the census obliged.
See also the Sandhu/Lockheed case. https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/4th/26/846.html
"The issue before this court is whether Dale Sandhu, an "East Indian" from Punjab, India, can sue under the Fair Employment and Housing Act for race-based employment discrimination. Lockheed argued successfully below that Sandhu was Caucasian and therefore could not bring suit on a race theory. We reject this narrow definition of race and hold that a cognizable claim for race discrimination may be brought on the basis of Sandhu's allegations."

rms2
10-11-2019, 10:59 PM
Wait I thought they come under Asians - Others, along with Pakistanis and rest of South Asians.

That represents a fairly recent change, at least since the last time I filled out a government job application (which has been some years).

Yes, now they are classed as "Asians".

The prior classification, as I recall it, was as members of "the European geographical race", which I think makes more sense than Asian, even though India and Pakistan are in Asia.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-11-2019, 11:12 PM
That represents a fairly recent change, at least since the last time I filled out a government job application (which has been some years).

Yes, now they are classed as "Asians".

The prior classification, as I recall it, was as members of "the European geographical race", which I think makes more sense than Asian, even though India and Pakistan are in Asia.

I think the categories in Canada makes more sense. They have south Asian, and then Caribbean - Indian. US certainly need to update them.

rms2
10-12-2019, 12:31 AM
Personally, I think Indians and Pakistanis look European, aside from skin color. There are plenty of people in "South Asia" who don't look much like Indians and Pakistanis at all.

Of course, I would do away with racial classification altogether.

thejkhan
10-12-2019, 12:46 AM
plenty of people in "South Asia" who don't look much like Indians


What are you talking about?? India itself is most of South Asia.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-12-2019, 02:13 AM
What are you talking about?? India itself is most of South Asia.

He meant the stereotypical South Indian types you see in IT field in US.

rms2
10-12-2019, 01:00 PM
What are you talking about?? India itself is most of South Asia.

Try Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, etc., etc.

That's what I was talking about.

If one restricts "South Asia" to India, then, yeah, Indians look like "South Asians" because that becomes a tautology.



He meant the stereotypical South Indian types you see in IT field in US.


Nope, that's not what I meant at all. Didn't even cross my mind.

geebee
12-01-2019, 06:54 AM
I think the categories in Canada makes more sense. They have south Asian, and then Caribbean - Indian. US certainly need to update them.

The U.S. has updated its definitions, many times.

The latest "official" one seems to be that of the OMB in 1997.


The U.S. Census Bureau must adhere to the 1997 Office of Management and Budget (OMB ) standards on race and ethnicity which guide the Census Bureau in classifying written responses to the race question:


White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Black or African American – A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.

American Indian or Alaska Native – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

The 1997 OMB standards permit the reporting of more than one race. An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification.

https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

Keep in mind, though, that every time a change has been proposed to the classifications or definitions -- or even abolishing them altogether -- there has been opposition from all kinds of interest groups. Before the 2010 Census, for example, it had been proposed to allow individuals to check both the "Hispanic" box and the "non-Hispanic" box, just as they were permitted to choose more than one race. There were Hispanics groups who were opposed to this idea, and ultimately it was rejected. (I did it anyway, on the groups of being both Anglo and Hispanic.)

Also, notice that while the OMB says that "an individual's response to the race question is based upon self-identification", that isn't entirely true when it comes to "American Indian or Alaska Native". There's an extra condition to that one: "and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment." All other categories speak only of origin.

However, you might also note that the Census Bureau says the OMB standards are to "guide the Census Bureau in classifying written responses". So presumably, individuals may say whatever they want, and ultimately the Census Bureau will decide how the responses should be classified.

EDIT:

The Census Bureau also has explicitly stated that "Hispanic" is not a race, and Hispanics can be of any race. Some Hispanics, however, regard their race as Hispanic -- even though it actually isn't one of the racial classifications.

As far as I know, nothing would stop anyone from checking "some other race" and writing in whatever they want. (There was a proposal to eliminate the category of "some other race", but that one was also rejected.)