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redifflal
03-20-2018, 03:19 PM
Mods please invoke the living room etiquette regarding contents of posts. South Asians despite partition continue to inhabit joint space in global diaspora and on the internet. But we all know there is an etiquette to these things. The keyboard is not a reason to throw the etiquette to the sidelines and bring up the things one would not discuss in person.
Hindi being a fake language, real India being Pakistan, real Hinduism being Islam, Ram and Krishna as prophets of Allah etc, these are bread and butter Muslim supremacist ideas that are passed around in Muslim homes, but at the same time it is well understood that one doesn't bring it up with non Muslims unless purposely looking for a fight. Likewise, Urdu being a pidgin creole, Islam being a new age cult, Muhammad being a questionable character, etc are bread and butter Hindu supremacist ideas thrown around in Hindu homes but never brought up with Muslims unless, once again, one is looking to fight.

Take the etiquette as the South Asian equivalent of certain no go zones, example holocaust denialism. It is a tried and tested method that has worked and continues to work for centuries. Airing out each side's dirty laundry is not something that leads to a productive discussion. Rather it is a sterile replay of the same exact dynamics ongoing for centuries. No new ground is broken via some Muslim bringing up that Vedic Aryan ate beef or by some Hindus bringing up that Hajj is epitome of idol worship. Ask yourselves, were the same things not replayed two days ago, ten years ago, thousand years ago? The schism is old, why allow for stirring the pot?

MikeWhalen
03-20-2018, 03:32 PM
I know nothing about the issues involved, but even an outsider knew a recent thread/post that had a very flammable title was going to end in tears

I could not for the life of me understand why it was not shut down sooner, as the issue, imho, was never 'is there a valid topic to be discussed or argued' but rather, 'someone looking for a fight and the only proof you needed was to read the tittle of his post'

The exact topic under consideration of these recent 'South Asian' threads, is normally for me 'not my dog, not my fight' and I would stay out of it
...but I still shake my head at that tittle being allowed to stand

...honestly folks, we have seen this play before, its not like we have to reinvent the wheel

just my 2 cents

... and I really really don't have a 'side' in the meat of the discussion but I do enjoy this forum and the strong level of civility and maturity it regularly displays

Mike

BMG
03-20-2018, 03:43 PM
I Agree .Thread with such titles should be closed as soon as seen by a mod . It was blatantly obvious that the intention was not a positive one

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 07:05 PM
The title of the tread was indeed inflammatory, and I apologize, however, the argument I was making was not invalid and was even open to having the title renamed. Furthermore, as noted by several others, it was a very civilized discussion until redifflal decided to hurl racial abuse by using the term "p*ki" as seen here in post #44. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13798-Hindi-Is-A-Fake-Language&p=367219&viewfull=1#post367219

In fact, the thread turned for the worst then this very same user in post #37 decided to completely divert the topic to something else.

Cutting your foreskin is way less natural than Hindi as is spoken for centuries before 1860 from villages across Gangetic plains.
Link: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13798-Hindi-Is-A-Fake-Language&p=367190&viewfull=1#post367190

Why this user hasn't been warned yet is beyond me. Is racial abuse tolerated at these forums? It's quite clear he lost the debate, got triggered, and decided to hurl out his typical North Indian bigotry.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 07:28 PM
Paki is only a derogatory term in UK which is not end all be all of the world. I've heard cricket commentary through 90s including Pakistani commentators from Rameez Raja to imran khan referring to Paki batsmen need to do xyz and also Indian commentators like Gavaskar to Ravi Shastri.

Nobody lost any debate. Your title was inflammatory, and I held my tongue until you kept delving deeper. What is uncivilized about calling the removal of foreskin unnatural? You're calling Devanagiri script unnatural. You're calling idol worship unnatural. Don't be a typical of your kind by striking first and then crying when you're getting it handed back.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 07:42 PM
Idol worship is an article of faith for me as a Hindu. You do not have the right to bring up legitimacy of idol worship as a Muslim. Or else I will bring up the pedophilic traditions of your impostor of a prophet which you inherited in your bachebaaz customs... Like I said, just don't go there.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 07:46 PM
Paki is only a derogatory term in UK which is not end all be all of the world. I've heard cricket commentary through 90s including Pakistani commentators from Rameez Raja to imran khan referring to Paki batsmen need to do xyz and also Indian commentators like Gavaskar to Ravi Shastri.

Paki is a racial slur. Period. Doesn't matter what part of the world it's used in, you shouldn't be using it unless you're a bigot, which clearly you are from your comments. "Paki" is a racial slur typically referring to people of Pakistani descent. The slur is used chiefly in the United Kingdom, and is also considered pejorative in Canada. A person from Pakistan is called a PAKISTANI. Learn English and use proper terms. Bigot.


Nobody lost any debate. Your title was inflammatory, and I held my tongue until you kept delving deeper.
It's not a crime to debate last time I checked. And I don't care about your tongue, you prove what kind of culture you come from with the comments you made. Racist bigot.


What is uncivilized about calling the removal of foreskin unnatural?
What does the removal of foreskin have anything to do with the debate on hand. The discussion was over Urdu vs "Hindi". How does circumcision enter into the debate?


You're calling Devanagiri script unnatural.
Wrong. I called "Hindi" unnatural...never stated Devanagri was unnatural.


You're calling idol worship unnatural.
Wrong, yet again. Quote me exactly where I said idol-worship was unnatural? I stated the Vedic civilization forbade idolatry.


Don't be a typical of your kind by striking first and then crying when you're getting it handed back.

What exactly did you hand back? A racial slur and a big hissy fit? You think that intimidates me? It only reaffirms what I know about Dasya Varta. LOL.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 07:47 PM
Idol worship is an article of faith for me as a Hindu.

I don't care about you or your religion. Religion is nonsense to me. It's just an idea, and ideas have a right to be questioned. What are you one of those social justice warriors or something?


You do not have the right to bring up legitimacy of idol worship as a Muslim.

Who said I was a Muslim? And who are you to tell me what I can discuss and can't discuss?

Seriously, who exactly do you think you are?


Or else I will bring up the pedophilic traditions of your impostor of a prophet which you inherited in your bachebaaz customs... Like I said, just don't go there.

Go ahead.

MikeWhalen
03-20-2018, 07:50 PM
and so this thread will get shut down too

sooner than later one hopes

M

and I am really out this time

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 07:53 PM
and so this thread will get shut down too

sooner than later one hopes

M

and I am really out this time

Instead of leaving, you should be reading the comments being made by redifflal. He's quite a piece of work.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 07:59 PM
Common sense and decency are things that existed before any social justice yada yada. We had a decent forum until you came in and your post #1 didn't have anything to do with genetics or anthropology but about calling a language and to an extent a religion fake and unnatural and making far reaching comments about what a religion forbids etc. Nice playing to the gallery though about not caring about religion. Go question your own pederastic traditions...

redifflal
03-20-2018, 08:08 PM
Debate about Hindi Urdu etc all you want. I'm the only one that posted an academic paper on that thread which you kept asking like a five year old as if you cannot Google papers by title and author of major researchers. One can discuss mutations that led to white skin and have debates over alleles etc, but you will not start a debate about white skin if your thread title is "White are mutant albino exiled from Africa", and your original post is a copy paste from some fringe website, you're going to be starting a flame war. Latter is what you did here, and you got paid in kind.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 08:22 PM
Common sense and decency are things that existed before any social justice yada yada. We had a decent forum until you came in and your post #1 didn't have anything to do with genetics or anthropology

That's the first real argument you've made. Congratulations. However, I was discussing the name of the forum "Hindi" and why it was such. As Reza pointed out, it had merit. Sorry.


but about calling a language and to an extent a religion fake and unnatural

Which religion did I call fake? Unless you can provide me a quote of what I said, you should stop making things up. I simply said "Hindi" was invented in 1860, and there's plenty of evidence to prove this. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.


and making far reaching comments about what a religion forbids etc. Nice playing to the gallery though about not caring about religion. Go question your own pederastic traditions...

I am entitled to say anything I want, within the bounds of the rules of this forum. Last I checked, it wasn't a crime to question a religion.

You need to grow up.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 08:25 PM
Debate about Hindi Urdu etc all you want. I'm the only one that posted an academic paper on that thread which you kept asking like a five year old as if you cannot Google papers by title and author of major researchers.

I googled that "major researcher" and came back with nothing. He looks like a BJP plant to me and his Facebook page is quite entertaining might I add.


One can discuss mutations that led to white skin and have debates over alleles etc, but you will not start a debate about white skin if your thread title is "White are mutant albino exiled from Africa", and your original post is a copy paste from some fringe website, you're going to be starting a flame war. Latter is what you did here, and you got paid in kind.

Talk about going off on a tangent. I suggest you log off, drink a big glass of cold water, calm down and rejoin us tomorrow morning (I'm not sure where you live, it's 1:25 am here and I need to sleep). I promise when you wake up, you'll feel much better.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 08:33 PM
You wrote Vedas forbid idol worship. Does that belong on a Hindi Urdu language discussion? This whole thread was started not really about discussing languages or scripts but over showing supremacy of Islam and its peculiar fetish over idol worship/destruction over Hinduism. It was clear from original post lampooning some bogeyman Hindu nationalists and made further clear when you started writing about Vedas, beef, idols, etc.

And no, this forum is not about discussing or questioning religious practices. Reza even mentioned to strictly stay away from religion and politics (and this is my question to mods that why or how you didn't realize this was already a nasty attack from post number 1). Nor is it about politics which was laced through your first post since you mentioned Hindu nationalists which is a clear modern day political movement.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 08:39 PM
I have no idea what you found from your Google search and why you ended up on Facebook of all places. This is the paper I posted.
https://www.academia.edu/29995994/Hindi_is_perfect_Urdu_is_messy_The_discourse_of_de legitimation_of_Urdu_in_India
The guy is a professor of linguistics in Qatar from what I could tell from LinkedIn. Either way the paper has a sympathetic position to yours, not sure why you're acting like it is bringing up antiquity of Hindi for it isn't. It simply has a good compilation of the quotes of all the 19th century folks involved with the script reversion, which your original post never mentioned but only blanket statement pushed under the cover as Hindu nationalists. If you want a debate, inform yourself on all sides of the issue and read through material instead of posting inflammatory crap.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 08:41 PM
You wrote Vedas forbid idol worship. Does that belong on a Hindi Urdu language discussion?

When someone asks me a question, I will respond in detail. I wrote about the Vedas forbidding idol worship in post #21 (see here> https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13798-Hindi-Is-A-Fake-Language&p=366890&viewfull=1#post366890). As you can see from my posting history, I tend to respond in high detail and at times bring up things which might not be exactly related to anthropology.


This whole thread was started not really about discussing languages or scripts but over showing supremacy of Islam and its peculiar fetish over idol worship/destruction over Hinduism.

This is HAL 9000 malfunctioning wrong.


It was clear from original post lampooning some bogeyman Hindu nationalists and made further clear when you started writing about Vedas, beef, idols, etc.

My original post (see here > https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13798-Hindi-Is-A-Fake-Language/page3) doesn't mention anything about Vedas, beef or idols.


And no, this forum is not about discussing or questioning religious practices. Reza even mentioned to strictly stay away from religion and politics (and this is my question to mods that why or how you didn't realize this was already a nasty attack from post number 1). Nor is it about politics which was laced through your first post since you mentioned Hindu nationalists which is a clear modern day political movement.

There was nothing "nasty" about my original post. I questioned why the forum was called "Hindi" since this language was only invented in 1860.

Anjuman-i Taraqqi-i Urdu
03-20-2018, 08:54 PM
I have no idea what you found from your Google search and why you ended up on Facebook of all places. This is the paper I posted.
https://www.academia.edu/29995994/Hindi_is_perfect_Urdu_is_messy_The_discourse_of_de legitimation_of_Urdu_in_India
The guy is a professor of linguistics in Qatar from what I could tell from LinkedIn. Either way the paper has a sympathetic position to yours, not sure why you're acting like it is bringing up antiquity of Hindi for it isn't. It simply has a good compilation of the quotes of all the 19th century folks involved with the script reversion, which your original post never mentioned but only blanket statement pushed under the cover as Hindu nationalists. If you want a debate, inform yourself on all sides of the issue and read through material instead of posting inflammatory crap.

I searched for his name and didn't find anything. He's quite unknown and the University of Qatar isn't exactly a shining example of research. That being said, I would suggest you read what he states on page #1. "The construction of Hindi and Devanagari as impeccable linguistic systems began in the second half of the 19th century and continued into the 20th century."

So essentially you've proven exactly what I've originally proclaimed. Thank you.

redifflal
03-20-2018, 09:24 PM
Nobody asked you a question about Vedas or beef, stop flattering yourself. You went there because you wanted to.

I have read through the whole paper ages ago as well as yesterday. I was simply posting the paper because it was a better point for starting a debate in Hindi Urdu etc than your inflammatory original post. Even if Dr Rizwan Ahmad and you have the same assertions and conclusions, the quality and coherence of that kind of academic work is going to get you an audience here, not your inflammatory crap. Then after I was done pasting most of the paper on the thread, I see you'd gone off on tangents about beef Vedas Dravidian etc all kinds of cock and ball Zakir Naik theories.

As far as writing systems etc go, first recognize that reading writing are things that go hand in hand with literacy and in itself is a technology not the language itself. Modern era is characterized by rush for universal "education" which has become synonymous with western education... but precursor to this is Islamic era. Because in Islam it is encouraged to know and read the scripture yourself as opposed to religions like Hinduism where scripture reading is/was domain of Brahmins, so there was a jump in literacy in medieval era due to Islam. What you have written about Punjabi, Hindi/Urdu/insert-name-of-choice, and even Bengali for that matter, will have some of its first era of writing in the right to left scripts. So what? The whole concept of writing a language and script it employs is a matter of technology and who is controlling means of such production.

Internet chat etc has been around since 1990s. We have all chatted on msn, aim, icq etc using Roman script for our native languages. Now 200 years from now some idiot is going to come and say Bengali was first written in Roman script, later Bengali nationalists forced software developers in 2015 to make available Bengali script. Like come on lol.

The main difference between Hindi Urdu is not script and which script was used earlier. Urdu has clear borrowing of vocabulary from Farsi and Arabic which are not there in the grassroots of the land where it supposedly was the original of. Khushbu e watan is what exactly? Compared to dharti ki saundarya. That is difference of Hindu and Urdu. Making script the cornerstone of your argument is foolish because script doesn't make a language.