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Ethereal
03-23-2018, 04:29 PM
Hey,

I'll keep this simple - I am Ashkenazi, Y DNA I1 from 23andme (could this be wrong? Probably not), no evidence of recent conversions either genealogically or from 23andme.

How can I find out where this Y DNA I1 is from? Which test do I need to order? It clearly isn't from the Middle East, and my family is really interested in finding out where it comes from.

Many thanks!

Tz85
03-23-2018, 06:48 PM
Download your raw data from 23andme, and try a ydna utility to verify

Pylsteen
03-23-2018, 06:49 PM
There is I1 listed on here (https://jewishdna.net/), but if you want to know more about your Y-line, I would perhaps test with FTDNA.

Ethereal
03-23-2018, 07:00 PM
There is I1 listed on jewishdnadotnet, but if you want to know more about your Y-line, I would perhaps test with FTDNA.

Is it possible that this branch is originally Sephardic? Like R1b-Ivanhoe, which is now confirmed to have become Jewish amongst Sephardim, this Y DNA I1 (L338+) seems to originate from the UK (in this case from the Northern Irish and Western Scottish, corresponding the Nordtvedt's AABB group). Also, a confirmed Ashkenazi (Aronovitz, from Romania) belongs to this Y DNA (I1 L338+) and, supposedly, there are family rumours of Sephardic ancestry on that line. This is not the case for me, as far as I know I am fully Ashkenazi, but I have observed that almost all the non-Middle Eastern Ashkenazi Y DNA seems to have come from Sephardim.

spruithean
03-23-2018, 11:05 PM
Perhaps your direct paternal ancestor was of Northern European origin and he or a descendant converted to Judaism? Perhaps that is how the Northern European haplogroup I1-L338 found its way into an Ashkenazi family?

JonikW
03-23-2018, 11:30 PM
Funnily enough Razib Khan just posted this. We don't know yet whether you are L338 but you show that the European flow into the Ashkenazi population was at least on one occasion through the male line. Keep us updated with what you uncover next and good luck.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/22/the-origin-of-the-ashkenazi-jews-in-early-medieval-europe/

C J Wyatt III
03-24-2018, 02:29 AM
There is I1 listed on here (https://jewishdna.net/), but if you want to know more about your Y-line, I would perhaps test with FTDNA.

I agree with Pylsteen. You just don't have enough information right now to project anything. I am no Y-DNA expert, but I'm thinking a Y-37 or better, a Y-67 would be a good level to test. You would likely find you some possible connections within the genealogical time frame which might merit investigation and further testing.

Though I am not Ashkenazi (but I am an I1 :) ) , I did get past a brick wall in my paternal line a couple of hundred years back with Y-DNA testing of that level.

Good luck. Sounds interesting and I hope you will keep us updated.

Jack

Eihwaz
03-24-2018, 09:14 PM
Funnily enough Razib Khan just posted this. We don't know yet whether you are L338 but you show that the European flow into the Ashkenazi population was at least on one occasion through the male line. Keep us updated with what you uncover next and good luck.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/22/the-origin-of-the-ashkenazi-jews-in-early-medieval-europe/

I'll say it again: there are people of "full Ashkenazi descent" like my father who most certainly show elevated Northwest European (or maybe Central European?) admixture. These things are to be expected in a group whose modern ethnogenesis revolves around different levels of admixture with somewhat-related groups.

I predict that once we get some aDNA from medieval Jewish graves in Central and Eastern Europe, a genetic tapestry as interesting as the one from the recent Bavarian study will be revealed.

JonikW
03-24-2018, 11:59 PM
I'll say it again: there are people of "full Ashkenazi descent" like my father who most certainly show elevated Northwest European (or maybe Central European?) admixture. These things are to be expected in a group whose modern ethnogenesis revolves around different levels of admixture with somewhat-related groups.

I predict that once we get some aDNA from medieval Jewish graves in Central and Eastern Europe, a genetic tapestry as interesting as the one from the recent Bavarian study will be revealed.

That would be truly fascinating. Let's hope we see some aDNA from the old Jewish communities of Europe sooner rather than later. Surely begging for a proper study.

Ethereal
04-02-2018, 11:35 PM
So not an update as to my own Y DNA I1, but just to the Ashkenazi I1 generally - the closest branch by far is Norwegian, and it appears whoever it was converted/raped/whatever form of fucking it ended up being sometime near the 7th century AD.

Now, how does this happen? This is too early even for the Viking Age, in fact Rome only fell 2 centuries before. Is this really from some kind of Germanic barbarian? Or is there just missing data here, and while the tmrca with the Norwegian (and closest so far) branch is correct, there is actually a closer branch that hasn't yet been tested. Is there even any way to tell? If this Y DNA has been Jewish for over a millenium, how are there so few Ashkenazi Y DNA I1s then?

Here is the data (Polish and Romanian branches are actually Ashkenazi - I have checked and am 100% sure of this. This appears to be the only Ashkenazi branch.): https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

Much appreciated!

spruithean
04-03-2018, 12:11 AM
What's so wrong with a distant ancestor who was Germanic and happened to contribute his I1 Y-line to you? Perhaps his descendants married into Ashkenazi communities and converted? You honestly can't know, and NPEs could have taken place.

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 12:23 AM
What's so wrong with a distant ancestor who was Germanic and happened to contribute his I1 Y-line to you? Perhaps his descendants married into Ashkenazi communities and converted? You honestly can't know, and NPEs could have taken place.

Well I clearly have Germanic paternal ancestry somewhere along the line, but if it was so long ago why are there so few of us Ashkenazi I1s, as Ashkenwzim went through a population explosion.

spruithean
04-03-2018, 12:40 AM
Well I clearly have Germanic paternal ancestry somewhere along the line, but if it was so long ago why are there so few of us Ashkenazi I1s, as Ashkenwzim went through a population explosion.

Perhaps the I1 individuals were not as prolific as the more common haplogroups, perhaps there are still many I1 Ashkenazi yet to have their Y-DNA tested.

JerryS.
04-03-2018, 01:16 AM
I1 is found in Sicily as well, so while this is not common, it is not unheard of either....

Angriff
04-03-2018, 01:24 AM
So not an update as to my own Y DNA I1, but just to the Ashkenazi I1 generally - the closest branch by far is Norwegian, and it appears whoever it was converted/raped/whatever form of fucking it ended up being sometime near the 7th century AD.

Now, how does this happen? This is too early even for the Viking Age, in fact Rome only fell 2 centuries before. Is this really from some kind of Germanic barbarian? Or is there just missing data here, and while the tmrca with the Norwegian (and closest so far) branch is correct, there is actually a closer branch that hasn't yet been tested. Is there even any way to tell? If this Y DNA has been Jewish for over a millenium, how are there so few Ashkenazi Y DNA I1s then?

Here is the data (Polish and Romanian branches are actually Ashkenazi - I have checked and am 100% sure of this. This appears to be the only Ashkenazi branch.): https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

Much appreciated!

Probably via Scotland. There was a significant Ashkenazi presence there in the Middle Ages, and there was always some amount of gene swapping across from Scotland and Norway AFAIK even before the Viking Age.

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 06:50 AM
Probably via Scotland. There was a significant Ashkenazi presence there in the Middle Ages, and there was always some amount of gene swapping across from Scotland and Norway AFAIK even before the Viking Age.

Potentially, but why is it the case that apart from this Norwegian branch, the tmrca with the closest other branches is estimated to be 3000 ybp, all the way back to L338+ (which indeed supposedly comes from Scotland (/Ireland))? 3000 years ago, Jews were definitely not in Scotland, so unless I'm missing something (or we're just missing data), Scotland cannot be the answer.

Also, was that also not though to be the case with R1b-U106-Ivanhoe? People thought it had something to do with the Scottish, until some big tests came out and everybody realised it was actually from Iberia (which makes sense, as the Sephardim (from Y DNA) were much more open to at least male conversion), so is it just not possible that this I1 also comes from Iberia?

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 07:13 AM
Thanks for all the help by the way - I'm probably going to have FTDNA results in about two months, which is bloody ages away, but I'll update on here anyway. Right now though, it'd just be interesting to pick your brains as to theories about how it seems the conversion was through a Scandinavian before the Viking Age (perhaps a Germanic barbarian?)

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 10:41 AM
Perhaps the I1 individuals were not as prolific as the more common haplogroups, perhaps there are still many I1 Ashkenazi yet to have their Y-DNA tested.

That seems unlikely to me, Jews have been tested probably more thoroughly than any other group. Also, I can confirm by checking my 23andme dna relatives Y DNA, and of those I can guarantee are Jewish on their paternal line (hard to do as some of them made themselves anonymous), and assuming that men and women test equally, it appears the percentage of Ashkenazi I1s is under 1/3 of one percent (I have about 1200 DNA relatives, which in itself is a decent sample size). That isn't the most scientific method, but even the actual scientific methods find a huge paucity of Y DNA I1s. If it is such an old subclade, it still begs the question - why so few Jews with it, considering the population explosion?

And also, there's the question of why the closest matches are Norwegian (no matches are remotely close bar these), when Jews were basically never in Norway, and this is from before the Vikings.

Bit of a mystery to me!

JerryS.
04-03-2018, 10:48 AM
That seems unlikely to me, Jews have been tested probably more thoroughly than any other group. Also, I can confirm by checking my 23andme dna relatives Y DNA, and of those I can guarantee are Jewish on their paternal line (hard to do as some of them made themselves anonymous), and assuming that men and women test equally, it appears the percentage of Ashkenazi I1s is under 1/3 of one percent (I have about 1200 DNA relatives, which in itself is a decent sample size). That isn't the most scientific method, but even the actual scientific methods find a huge paucity of Y DNA I1s. If it is such an old subclade, it still begs the question - why so few Jews with it, considering the population explosion?

And also, there's the question of why the closest matches are Norwegian (no matches are remotely close bar these), when Jews were basically never in Norway, and this is from before the Vikings.

Bit of a mystery to me!

because that haplogroups seems to be more concentrated in Scandinavia. also, the Vikings made their way into the Mediterranean as did the people they raped pillaged and burned (Normans...) as I stated before, I1 is not common but not unheard of either for Sicily and the ties between Sicily and Ashkenazi are interwoven.

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 10:54 AM
because that haplogroups seems to be more concentrated in Scandinavia. also, the Vikings made their way into the Mediterranean as did the people they raped pillaged and burned (Normans...) as I stated before, I1 is not common but not unheard of either for Sicily and the ties between Sicily and Ashkenazi are interwoven.

But why then do I (presuming I have the Ashkenazi branch, haven't actually taken the test yet) have no Sicilian/Italian close matches? My only matches within the last 3000 years are Norwegian, and they're 1350 years old (tmrca, of course). That is before the Vikings, and definitely before the Normans, and way before Norman Sicily.

Also, you still haven't answered why there are so few Ashkenazi I1s (there are plenty of Sicilian I1s, f.e....)

Also, it doesn't matter where the haplogroup as a whole is most concentrated in terms of what my closest I1 cousins are...

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 11:13 AM
Can I just ask, is there any way I can ever know the answer to this? I absolutely refuse to pay extortionate amounts for Big Y testing, besides, two Ashkenazim with Y DNA I1 already have. The max. info I can currently find is the closest branches are Norwegian, and the tmrca is about 1350 bp. The branch seems pretty rare. If you go back about 3000 years, it probably comes from Scotland/Ireland.

Is there anything that could be deduced from all that? Was the conversion directly from a Norwegian? How on Earth could that have taken place?! Was it a Germanic warrior straight from Norway? If so, why does only the Jewish branch still exist (besides the Norwegian)? Why are so few Jews Y DNA I1, despite this conversion/rape/whatever seemingly taking place well over a millenium ago? So, SO many questions that I just don't have the knowledge for...

JonikW
04-03-2018, 11:53 AM
Can I just ask, is there any way I can ever know the answer to this? I absolutely refuse to pay extortionate amounts for Big Y testing, besides, two Ashkenazim with Y DNA I1 already have. The max. info I can currently find is the closest branches are Norwegian, and the tmrca is about 1350 bp. The branch seems pretty rare. If you go back about 3000 years, it probably comes from Scotland/Ireland.

Is there anything that could be deduced from all that? Was the conversion directly from a Norwegian? How on Earth could that have taken place?! Was it a Germanic warrior straight from Norway? If so, why does only the Jewish branch still exist (besides the Norwegian)? Why are so few Jews Y DNA I1, despite this conversion/rape/whatever seemingly taking place well over a millenium ago? So, SO many questions that I just don't have the knowledge for...

If you want to know more you should start by testing to see what subclades you have. You may well not be related to the Norwegian line you've found. Where do your father's family come from?

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 12:15 PM
If you want to know more you should start by testing to see what subclades you have. You may well not be related to the Norwegian line you've found. Where do your father's family come from?

Poland, the conversion would have to have been over 8 generation ago at the most recent (if 23andme is to be believed). I can only trace back 4 generations though, but I tend to trust 23andme's identification of Ashkenazi autosomal DNA.

I've been reading jewishdna.net, and supposedly the reason why some branches aren't as populated is because the men carrying them entered the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at a later time (which was the area with high birth rates that the population explosion took place in - this makes a lot of sense to me, and I think is the answer as to why there aren't many Ashkenazi I1s. This does not answer why the closest branch by over 1000 years tmrca is Norwegian, though.).

https://i.imgur.com/G3QKRY1.png

As you can see, as a percentage of the total Ashkenazi branches, Y DNA I1 isn't so tiny, but as a percentage of the total population it is (definitely under 0.5%). They spelt Ashkenazi wrong, but other than that the website is very professional.

JerryS.
04-03-2018, 08:11 PM
But why then do I (presuming I have the Ashkenazi branch, haven't actually taken the test yet) have no Sicilian/Italian close matches? My only matches within the last 3000 years are Norwegian, and they're 1350 years old (tmrca, of course). That is before the Vikings, and definitely before the Normans, and way before Norman Sicily.

Also, you still haven't answered why there are so few Ashkenazi I1s (there are plenty of Sicilian I1s, f.e....)

Also, it doesn't matter where the haplogroup as a whole is most concentrated in terms of what my closest I1 cousins are...

good luck. I can offer a layman's observation. what does the Jtest from Eurogenes (specific for Ashkenazi Jew) show you in a mixed mode population sample (regular oracle two population groups)?

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 10:53 PM
good luck. I can offer a layman's observation. what does the Jtest from Eurogenes (specific for Ashkenazi Jew) show you in a mixed mode population sample (regular oracle two population groups)?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ASHKENAZI 28.73
2 EAST_MED 18.34
3 WEST_MED 11.15
4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 9.22
5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 8.99
6 WEST_ASIAN 7.27
7 ATLANTIC 6.64
8 SOUTH_BALTIC 3.98
9 EAST_EURO 3.28


Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
14 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 AJ @ 2.740811
2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 24.574188
3 GR @ 26.900328
4 Tuscan @ 27.526051
5 North_Italian @ 30.193314
6 RO @ 30.607788
7 Serbian @ 32.543846
8 PT @ 33.820339
9 TR @ 34.700562
10 Moroccan @ 35.879784
11 ES @ 36.010742
12 Algerian @ 36.144581
13 AT @ 36.399227
14 HU @ 36.696774
15 FR @ 37.657791
16 IQ @ 37.673271
17 Assyrian @ 39.178902
18 Mandean @ 39.344318
19 Armenian @ 39.463165
20 Kurdish @ 39.926796

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% AJ +50% AJ @ 2.740811


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% AJ +25% AJ +25% AJ @ 2.740811


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
1 AJ + AJ + AJ + AJ @ 2.740811
2 AJ + AJ + AJ + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 6.772207
3 AJ + AJ + AJ + Tuscan @ 6.813181
4 AJ + AJ + AJ + North_Italian @ 7.338726
5 AJ + AJ + AJ + GR @ 7.612844
6 AJ + AJ + AJ + PT @ 7.754519
7 AJ + AJ + AJ + RO @ 7.858645
8 AJ + AJ + AJ + Serbian @ 8.122378
9 AJ + AJ + AJ + ES @ 8.296267
10 AJ + AJ + AJ + Moroccan @ 8.589580
11 AJ + AJ + AJ + FR @ 8.633346
12 AJ + AJ + AJ + AT @ 8.674199
13 AJ + AJ + AJ + Algerian @ 8.912990
14 AJ + AJ + AJ + HU @ 8.973128
15 AJ + AJ + AJ + TR @ 9.563531
16 AJ + AJ + AJ + West_&_Central_German @ 9.655743
17 AJ + AJ + AJ + NL @ 9.856410
18 AJ + AJ + AJ + English @ 10.022871
19 AJ + AJ + AJ + Cornish @ 10.045385
20 AJ + AJ + AJ + DK @ 10.407078

Basically, this I1 definitely is not recent (not within the past 8 generations, at the very very least).

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 11:25 PM
Put it like this (and yes, I've asked this question on this thread already, but it got swamped):

What information is needed to determine the true origin of my Y DNA? It "belongs" to an Ashkenazi right now, but clearly it was once Northern European. Getting it - an exceedingly rare branch of Y DNA I1 at that - from a Norwegian is very hard to explain (Jews were never in Norway, this conversion was well before the Vikings).

So I've given up asking for answers, but now, I'm asking what would need to happen to get them!

Thanks :D

And I promise not to push this thread unless there's updates

Ethereal
04-03-2018, 11:26 PM
Oh and also, does anybody know if I can manipulate the data on YFull in any way to try and find an origin, or is tmrca all I've got?

deadly77
04-08-2018, 06:49 AM
Can you tell us which version of 23andme your test is from (or even the date when you did it)? If you download your raw data it should say v4 or v5 (or earlier versions) on the Y-SNP data. 23andme v4 chip doesn't test many downstream branches below I-M253 (I believe it is just M227, M72, L22 and P109). The v5 chip tests for a lot more but won't get as far down as the Big Y tests (and it's not designed to) but it does at least test for Z140 and Z2535 which would tell you if you're in the right neigbourhood to compare the the I-Y12329 folks. For Z140, search for rs768549242 - if it's G you're negative, if it's A you're positive. For Z2535, search for rs765711588 if it's G you're negative, if it's T you're positive. If you're negative for Z140 and Z2535, you can rule out being closely related (at least on the Y line) to the I-Y12329 folks. If you're positive, you can use the SNPs that they have tested at a reasonable $18 per SNP at YSEQ.

deadly77
04-11-2018, 03:30 PM
In addition to the blog post by Razib Khan that Jonik W shared earlier in the thread, he and Spencer Wells discuss Jewish Genetics on the latest Insitome podcast which can be found here https://insitome.libsyn.com/jewish-genetics-the-exodus-comes-full-circle

Ethereal
04-11-2018, 11:43 PM
Can you tell us which version of 23andme your test is from (or even the date when you did it)? If you download your raw data it should say v4 or v5 (or earlier versions) on the Y-SNP data. 23andme v4 chip doesn't test many downstream branches below I-M253 (I believe it is just M227, M72, L22 and P109). The v5 chip tests for a lot more but won't get as far down as the Big Y tests (and it's not designed to) but it does at least test for Z140 and Z2535 which would tell you if you're in the right neigbourhood to compare the the I-Y12329 folks. For Z140, search for rs768549242 - if it's G you're negative, if it's A you're positive. For Z2535, search for rs765711588 if it's G you're negative, if it's T you're positive. If you're negative for Z140 and Z2535, you can rule out being closely related (at least on the Y line) to the I-Y12329 folks. If you're positive, you can use the SNPs that they have tested at a reasonable $18 per SNP at YSEQ.

V4, so I only have Y DNA I-M253 showing. And I don't have that SNP tested, unfortunately. I've ordered a Y DNA 37 marker test from FTDNA (STR though, not SNP) - FTDNA can also test my SNPs, no?

spruithean
04-12-2018, 12:03 AM
V4, so I only have Y DNA I-M253 showing. And I don't have that SNP tested, unfortunately. I've ordered a Y DNA 37 marker test from FTDNA (STR though, not SNP) - FTDNA can also test my SNPs, no?

Yes FTDNA can test your SNPs, single, packs or in Big Y.

deadly77
04-12-2018, 07:50 AM
Yes, my V4 of 23andme is the same - just shows me as I-M253 and negative for everything the V4 chip tests for.

The FTDNA STR tests will put you at presumed I-M253 regardless of how many STR markers you order. You can put the markers into a predictor such as Nevgen which is usually fairly accurate, although STR mutations can cause false positive matches due to convergence - topic for another time, but take any of your Y37 STR matches with a grain of salt (if not the entire shaker) - if you're L338 we have a lot of false positive STR matches in our group, even up to the Y67 level.

As Spruithean says, FTDNA can do SNP testing - individually or in packs.

Don't do the FTDNA I1-L338 SNP pack - this was designed by the Hamilton Project and focuses on a small subset that doesn't have the SNPs you're looking to test against.
FTDNA I-M253 SNP Pack ($119) will get you to YSC0000261 which may tell you that you're on the right line but no further.
The FTDNA I-Z2535 SNP pack ($119) will test a few of the SNPs that you're interested in such as A2006, etc. but probably won't include more recent BigY based SNPs.

For me the best bang for your buck (especially since you said you were adamant that you were not going to do BigY) would be a SNP Panel at YSEQ. They'll take you through the I1 tree in a iterative manner until they find your most recent SNP - this is $99 and in my opinion more comprehensive than any of the FTDNA SNP packs. You can check what they cover here: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=43455&osCsid=54753eaff027a0238542c05729031cce

JonikW
04-12-2018, 07:54 AM
Yes, my V4 of 23andme is the same - just shows me as I-M253 and negative for everything the V4 chip tests for.

The FTDNA STR tests will put you at presumed I-M253 regardless of how many STR markers you order. You can put the markers into a predictor such as Nevgen which is usually fairly accurate, although STR mutations can cause false positive matches due to convergence - topic for another time, but take any of your Y37 STR matches with a grain of salt (if not the entire shaker) - if you're L338 we have a lot of false positive STR matches in our group, even up to the Y67 level.

As Spruithean says, FTDNA can do SNP testing - individually or in packs.

Don't do the FTDNA I1-L338 SNP pack - this was designed by the Hamilton Project and focuses on a small subset that doesn't have the SNPs you're looking to test against.
FTDNA I-M253 SNP Pack ($119) will get you to YSC0000261 which may tell you that you're on the right line but no further.
The FTDNA I-Z2535 SNP pack ($119) will test a few of the SNPs that you're interested in such as A2006, etc. but probably won't include more recent BigY based SNPs.

For me the best bang for your buck (especially since you said you were adamant that you were not going to do BigY) would be a SNP Panel at YSEQ. They'll take you through the I1 tree in a iterative manner until they find your most recent SNP - this is $99 and in my opinion more comprehensive than any of the FTDNA SNP packs. You can check what they cover here: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=43455&osCsid=54753eaff027a0238542c05729031cce

I'll second that. YSEQ did an excellent job for me. Fast and efficient.

JerryS.
04-12-2018, 10:46 AM
how accurate is the Eurogenes Jtest anyway? and how different is Ashkenazi from Druze? I find that Eurogenes is a little on the weak side for representing minor Mediterranean (less than 25%) compared to Dodecad and MDLP.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.2% NO + 24.8% Tuscan @ 2.73
2 94.5% NL + 5.5% Armenian @ 2.81
3 93.7% NL + 6.3% TR @ 2.84
4 94.9% NL + 5.1% GE @ 2.84
5 94.6% NL + 5.4% Assyrian @ 2.85
6 94.4% NL + 5.6% Kurdish @ 2.88
7 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.92
8 94.4% NL + 5.6% IR @ 2.92
9 93.1% NL + 6.9% AJ @ 2.93
10 78.7% English + 21.3% Serbian @ 3
11 95.5% West_&_Central_German + 4.5% AJ @ 3.01
12 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 3.07
13 74.3% South_&_Central_Swedish + 25.7% Tuscan @ 3.07
14 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 3.08
15 79.7% DK + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
16 93% NL + 7% GR @ 3.09
17 94.5% NL + 5.5% Lezgin @ 3.09
18 92.6% NL + 7.4% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.09
19 95.5% NL + 4.5% Druze @ 3.1
20 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% GE @ 3.12

Ethereal
04-12-2018, 12:00 PM
how accurate is the Eurogenes Jtest anyway? and how different is Ashkenazi from Druze? I find that Eurogenes is a little on the weak side for representing minor Mediterranean (less than 25%) compared to Dodecad and MDLP.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.2% NO + 24.8% Tuscan @ 2.73
2 94.5% NL + 5.5% Armenian @ 2.81
3 93.7% NL + 6.3% TR @ 2.84
4 94.9% NL + 5.1% GE @ 2.84
5 94.6% NL + 5.4% Assyrian @ 2.85
6 94.4% NL + 5.6% Kurdish @ 2.88
7 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.92
8 94.4% NL + 5.6% IR @ 2.92
9 93.1% NL + 6.9% AJ @ 2.93
10 78.7% English + 21.3% Serbian @ 3
11 95.5% West_&_Central_German + 4.5% AJ @ 3.01
12 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 3.07
13 74.3% South_&_Central_Swedish + 25.7% Tuscan @ 3.07
14 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 3.08
15 79.7% DK + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
16 93% NL + 7% GR @ 3.09
17 94.5% NL + 5.5% Lezgin @ 3.09
18 92.6% NL + 7.4% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.09
19 95.5% NL + 4.5% Druze @ 3.1
20 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% GE @ 3.12

This has nothing to do with the topic mate

spruithean
04-12-2018, 05:20 PM
I'll second that. YSEQ did an excellent job for me. Fast and efficient.

I'm hoping to use YSEQs services for my Y-DNA sharing cousins to test their SNPs. I'm hoping at some point we can get panels for my terminal SNP and my private SNPs so my cousins can test for those.

Ethereal, deadly77's advice is on point, especially if you absolutely will not do Big Y in the near future.

Agamemnon
04-12-2018, 06:20 PM
Can I just ask, is there any way I can ever know the answer to this? I absolutely refuse to pay extortionate amounts for Big Y testing, besides, two Ashkenazim with Y DNA I1 already have. The max. info I can currently find is the closest branches are Norwegian, and the tmrca is about 1350 bp. The branch seems pretty rare. If you go back about 3000 years, it probably comes from Scotland/Ireland.

Is there anything that could be deduced from all that? Was the conversion directly from a Norwegian? How on Earth could that have taken place?! Was it a Germanic warrior straight from Norway? If so, why does only the Jewish branch still exist (besides the Norwegian)? Why are so few Jews Y DNA I1, despite this conversion/rape/whatever seemingly taking place well over a millenium ago? So, SO many questions that I just don't have the knowledge for...

Which is congruent with the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

JerryS.
04-12-2018, 06:54 PM
This has nothing to do with the topic mate

yeah, but you're not getting the answers you want so I figured I'd ask something while people fairly versed with this ethnicity were already engaged.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 01:50 PM
Which is congruent with the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

True, but was it really with Norwegians? How could that even have taken place? Also if it went through the bottleneck, why are there so few Y DNA I1s (about 0.2%)? I guess there are also mainly clearly Middle Eastern branches with about that percentage level (http://jewishdna.net/AB.html, maybe http://jewishdna.net/JewishAtable.html is more updated or is a slightly more inclusive list), and I suppose there's little reason the bottleneck would be so tight as to mean all Y DNA branches would have to have at least 1% relative frequency.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 02:02 PM
Which is congruent with the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

DELETED - DOUBLE POST

C J Wyatt III
04-13-2018, 02:17 PM
True, but was it really with Norwegians? How could that even have taken place? Also if it went through the bottleneck, why are there so few Y DNA I1s (about 0.2%)? I guess there are also mainly clearly Middle Eastern branches with about that percentage level (http://jewishdna.net/AB.html, maybe http://jewishdna.net/JewishAtable.html is more updated or is a slightly more inclusive list), and I suppose there's little reason the bottleneck would be so tight as to mean all Y DNA branches would have to have at least 1% relative frequency.

Chances are that your I1 is fairly recent and does not come from a patrilineal ancestor who was Jewish. One can come up with all kinds of scenarios to cover a situation like that.

If I recall correctly, you said that you ordered Y-37. Those results should help clarify the situation. I would think about something else until you get those results back.

Jack

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 02:27 PM
Which is congruent with the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

Oh one last thing - would you say we're at the point where I can rely on tmrcas, or is everything still undersampled? This is a relatively rare branch of Y DNA I1 L338+, and L338+ is definitely not a typically Scandinavian branch (it's more West Germanic), and contact between Norwegians and Jews was surely minimal.

Could it be the ancestor was more recent, but was actually German (who then moved to Norway/this German convert's ancestors were from Norway)?

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 02:31 PM
Chances are that your I1 is fairly recent and does not come from a patrilineal ancestor who was Jewish. One can come up with all kinds of scenarios to cover a situation like that.

If I recall correctly, you said that you ordered Y-37. Those results should help clarify the situation. I would think about something else until you get those results back.

Jack

I don't see why it's fairly recent - it certainly wasn't within the last 200 years, and the distribution of Ashkenazim with this branch is spread out from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

Of course, this guy wasn't originally Jewish - I don't really care about that despite it being unexpected, but I'm still interested in my Y DNA anyway.

With tmrca with the closest non-Jewish branch at 1350 ybp, again, I can't see how it is that recent of a branch. Of course it could be more recent, perhaps as contact between Norwegians and Ashkenazim would have been minimal it would actually have been with a German around 1000 ybp (whose other male line cousins would later move to E. Norway, where my closest cousin branch would be) - who knows.

Alternatively, it could be similar to R1b-Ivanhoe, as it too is from a broadly British Isles group (but L338+ is pretty widespread in Western Europe too, just not too common in Scandinavia compared to the other I1 branches)

C J Wyatt III
04-13-2018, 03:08 PM
I don't see why it's fairly recent - it certainly wasn't within the last 200 years, and the distribution of Ashkenazim with this branch is spread out from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

Well, I consider "fairly recent" as within about 200 years. Just "recent' gets to the less than one hundred years point.

Some fairly recent scenarios could be:

- adultery

- rape

- guy passing himself off as Jewish to get the Jewish girl

- widow with young son passing herself of as Jewish to get the Jewish guy

- adoption

One spouse could help the other assimilate into the Jewish culture/religion, then move to another area with the appearance of both spouses being born Jewish.

Or perhaps, someone was a servant in a wealthy Jewish household and picked up the knowledge before moving elsewhere and passing.

Jack

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 03:25 PM
Well, I consider "fairly recent" as within about 200 years. Just "recent' gets to the less than one hundred years point.

Some fairly recent scenarios could be:

- adultery

- rape

- guy passing himself off as Jewish to get the Jewish girl

- widow with young son passing herself of as Jewish to get the Jewish guy

- adoption

One spouse could help the other assimilate into the Jewish culture/religion, then move to another area with the appearance of both spouses being born Jewish.

Or perhaps, someone was a servant in a wealthy Jewish household and picked up the knowledge before moving elsewhere and passing.

Jack

Well from my 23andme results, I can tell you that is impossible.

C J Wyatt III
04-13-2018, 03:46 PM
Well from my 23andme results, I can tell you that is impossible.

Not meaning to be argumentative, but in a post from 4/3/2018 you show 28.73% Ashkenazi on the admixture. You seem to assume that your I1 traces back to the one SNP which belongs to an Ashkenazi line. I don't think you can make that assumption, but I'll let it rest. I hope you will share your Y-37 results when you get them back.

Good luck in finding what you are looking for.

Jack

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 03:52 PM
Not meaning to be argumentative, but in a post from 4/3/2018 you show 28.73% Ashkenazi on the admixture. You seem to assume that your I1 traces back to the one SNP which belongs to an Ashkenazi line. I don't think you can make that assumption, but I'll let it rest. I hope you will share your Y-37 results when you get them back.

Good luck in finding what you are looking for.

Jack

Right, so basically you don't know what you're talking about - got it!

Agamemnon
04-13-2018, 05:10 PM
True, but was it really with Norwegians? How could that even have taken place? Also if it went through the bottleneck, why are there so few Y DNA I1s (about 0.2%)? I guess there are also mainly clearly Middle Eastern branches with about that percentage level (http://jewishdna.net/AB.html, maybe http://jewishdna.net/JewishAtable.html is more updated or is a slightly more inclusive list), and I suppose there's little reason the bottleneck would be so tight as to mean all Y DNA branches would have to have at least 1% relative frequency.

I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56) which are equally rare and have roughly the same TMRCA estimates. In some cases, the lack of reproductive success is arguably due to the MRCA not having a reliable Jewish pedigree (as in the case of R1b-Z56), this might also be why I1-Y12329's frequency is so low.


Oh one last thing - would you say we're at the point where I can rely on tmrcas, or is everything still undersampled? This is a relatively rare branch of Y DNA I1 L338+, and L338+ is definitely not a typically Scandinavian branch (it's more West Germanic), and contact between Norwegians and Jews was surely minimal.

Could it be the ancestor was more recent, but was actually German (who then moved to Norway/this German convert's ancestors were from Norway)?

Yes, we can rely on the TMRCA estimates at this stage. Unless ancient DNA evidence contradicts these estimates (unlikely).

Like you said, L338 essentially looks West Germanic in its distribution and phylogeny, though there's no reason to doubt its presence in the Proto-Gmc speech community, it seems to have expanded mainly with West Germanic-speaking populations and not North Germanic-speaking ones. Furthermore, the absence of Jewish communities in Scandinavia throughout most of the Middle Ages does a disfavour to any scenario positing a Scandinavian origin.

Considering the above, as well as the time and place of the Ashkenazi bottleneck, I'd say the odds are in favour of an ancestor in the Upper Rhine valley (especially Alsace). The common ancestor probably was neither Jewish nor Christian, an Alemannic origin is the most convincing one (L338 is bound to have been an important marker among them) and incidentally the christianisation of the Alemanni took place during the 7th century CE, so it's likely that the immediate descendants of this ancestor converted to Judaism (conversion back then was far less stringent than the rabbinate's current practices). Of course, none of this is set in stone, a "gentile rape" scenario remains possible, though it requires a lot of special pleading (if rape was such a successful breeding strategy, you'd expect a far greater proportion of typically Italic and Slavic lineages among Ashkenazi Jews).

So yeah, let's say "Jewish Viking" is bound to be an invalid label in your case.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 05:21 PM
I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56) which are equally rare and have roughly the same TMRCA estimates. In some cases, the lack of reproductive success is arguably due to the MRCA not having a reliable Jewish pedigree (as in the case of R1b-Z56), this might also be why I1-Y12329's frequency is so low.



Yes, we can rely on the TMRCA estimates at this stage. Unless ancient DNA evidence contradicts these estimates (unlikely).

Like you said, L338 essentially looks West Germanic in its distribution and phylogeny, though there's no reason to doubt its presence in the Proto-Gmc speech community, it seems to have expanded mainly with West Germanic-speaking populations and not North Germanic-speaking ones. Furthermore, the absence of Jewish communities in Scandinavia throughout most of the Middle Ages does a disfavour to any scenario positing a Scandinavian origin.

Considering the above, as well as the time and place of the Ashkenazi bottleneck, I'd say the odds are in favour of an ancestor in the Upper Rhine valley (especially Alsace). The common ancestor probably was neither Jewish nor Chrsitian, an Alemannic origin is the most convincing one (L338 is bound to have been an important marker among them) and incidentally the christianisation of the Alemanni took place during the 7th century CE, so it's likely that the immediate descendants of this ancestor converted to Judaism (conversion back then was far less stringent than the rabbinate's current practices). Of course, none of this is set in stone, a "gentile rape" scenario remains possible, though it requires a lot of special pleading (if rape was such a successful breeding strategy, you'd expect a far greater proportion of typically Italic and Slavic lineages among Ashkenazi Jews).

So yeah, let's say "Jewish Viking" is bound to be an invalid label in your case.

Super thorough answer, much appreciated - you're Semitic Duwa right? I'd say you're (or Maciamo, if he were to stray outside of Eupedia) the biggest authority on all of these forums since maybe Agrippa (who didn't know genetics anyway), so yeah, props

Principe
04-13-2018, 05:30 PM
I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56) which are equally rare and have roughly the same TMRCA estimates. In some cases, the lack of reproductive success is arguably due to the MRCA not having a reliable Jewish pedigree (as in the case of R1b-Z56), this might also be why I1-Y12329's frequency is so low.



Yes, we can rely on the TMRCA estimates at this stage. Unless ancient DNA evidence contradicts these estimates (unlikely).

Like you said, L338 essentially looks West Germanic in its distribution and phylogeny, though there's no reason to doubt its presence in the Proto-Gmc speech community, it seems to have expanded mainly with West Germanic-speaking populations and not North Germanic-speaking ones. Furthermore, the absence of Jewish communities in Scandinavia throughout most of the Middle Ages does a disfavour to any scenario positing a Scandinavian origin.

Considering the above, as well as the time and place of the Ashkenazi bottleneck, I'd say the odds are in favour of an ancestor in the Upper Rhine valley (especially Alsace). The common ancestor probably was neither Jewish nor Chrsitian, an Alemannic origin is the most convincing one (L338 is bound to have been an important marker among them) and incidentally the christianisation of the Alemanni took place during the 7th century CE, so it's likely that the immediate descendants of this ancestor converted to Judaism (conversion back then was far less stringent than the rabbinate's current practices). Of course, none of this is set in stone, a "gentile rape" scenario remains possible, though it requires a lot of special pleading (if rape was such a successful breeding strategy, you'd expect a far greater proportion of typically Italic and Slavic lineages among Ashkenazi Jews).

So yeah, let's say "Jewish Viking" is bound to be an invalid label in your case.

Great summary Aga, I justed want to know when you say not having a reliable Jewish pedigree, you mean not descending from prominent Rabbis and or being a Cohen/Levite?

Pylsteen
04-13-2018, 05:43 PM
I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56) which are equally rare and have roughly the same TMRCA estimates. In some cases, the lack of reproductive success is arguably due to the MRCA not having a reliable Jewish pedigree (as in the case of R1b-Z56), this might also be why I1-Y12329's frequency is so low.


From the most recent FTDNA data I have from Z56, I see the following three Jewish clusters, they all seem to have that same late Roman/early Medieval date for a TMRCA (sorry for off-topic)

Z56>BY3544>S1523>BY770>BY917>Y86521 etc.
Z56>BY3544>S1523>BY807>L4
Z56>Z145>BY28794>PF6582>BY3953>FGC36897>(...)

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 05:43 PM
Great summary Aga, I justed want to know when you say not having a reliable Jewish pedigree, you mean not descending from prominent Rabbis and or being a Cohen/Levite?

I'm neither, just Yisrael

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 05:45 PM
From the most recent FTDNA data I have from Z56, I see the following three Jewish clusters, they all seem to have that same late Roman/early Medieval TMRCA (sorry for off-topic)

Z56>BY3544>S1523>BY770>BY917>Y86521 etc.
Z56>BY3544>S1523>BY807>L4
Z56>Z145>BY28794>PF6582>BY3953>FGC36897>(...)

This is U152 right?

Pylsteen
04-13-2018, 05:48 PM
This is U152 right?

yes. IMO could have been picked up by the Jewish communities in Italy, or France or Germany.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 05:56 PM
I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56) which are equally rare and have roughly the same TMRCA estimates. In some cases, the lack of reproductive success is arguably due to the MRCA not having a reliable Jewish pedigree (as in the case of R1b-Z56), this might also be why I1-Y12329's frequency is so low.



Yes, we can rely on the TMRCA estimates at this stage. Unless ancient DNA evidence contradicts these estimates (unlikely).

Like you said, L338 essentially looks West Germanic in its distribution and phylogeny, though there's no reason to doubt its presence in the Proto-Gmc speech community, it seems to have expanded mainly with West Germanic-speaking populations and not North Germanic-speaking ones. Furthermore, the absence of Jewish communities in Scandinavia throughout most of the Middle Ages does a disfavour to any scenario positing a Scandinavian origin.

Considering the above, as well as the time and place of the Ashkenazi bottleneck, I'd say the odds are in favour of an ancestor in the Upper Rhine valley (especially Alsace). The common ancestor probably was neither Jewish nor Christian, an Alemannic origin is the most convincing one (L338 is bound to have been an important marker among them) and incidentally the christianisation of the Alemanni took place during the 7th century CE, so it's likely that the immediate descendants of this ancestor converted to Judaism (conversion back then was far less stringent than the rabbinate's current practices). Of course, none of this is set in stone, a "gentile rape" scenario remains possible, though it requires a lot of special pleading (if rape was such a successful breeding strategy, you'd expect a far greater proportion of typically Italic and Slavic lineages among Ashkenazi Jews).

So yeah, let's say "Jewish Viking" is bound to be an invalid label in your case.

So is it more likely that my closest Y DNA cousins in Eastern Norway, so to speak (assuming I'm even this particular branch of I1, which is likely the case but not certain), would (if they could trace it) descend from some West Germanic guy? Because they're the only branch remotely close to me: apart from them (1350 ybp), the closest branch to me shares a tmrca all the way back to L338+ (3000 ybp). Basically, if your hypothesis is true, why is the closest branch by about 1500 years (I'm generous with rounding) Norwegian?

I'm sure you saw it already, but just in case, this is the position of the branch in YFull for reference (the Polish and Romanian branch - they're Ashkenazim): https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

Also one further thing - L338+ does look essentially West Germanic, BUT, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's particularly common around Scotland (Nordtvedt saw two centres for L338+ (the Netherlands and Scotland/Northern Ireland (potentially from Protestant settlers in the latter case, potentially not), which is exactly where people thought U106-Ivanhoe was from. U106-Ivanhoe surely went through the bottleneck given about 5% of Ashkenazim belong to that group, so could that still not be the case here?

Principe
04-13-2018, 06:06 PM
I'm neither, just Yisrael

That’s for your direct Paternal Y, I’m sure other lines in your family tree will turn out to have a variety of branches.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 06:09 PM
That’s for your direct Paternal Y, I’m sure other lines in your family tree will turn out to have a variety of branches.

Oh yeah, of course. I like Aga's hypothesis by the way, and the tmrca IS in line with the bottleneck, but it's with (Eastern) Norwegians and not mainland West-Central Europeans. I think it's extremely unlikely that my Y DNA (before "becoming" Ashkenazi) was held by a Norwegian line, so why are my closest cousins Norwegian? Is the answer that they (the Norwegians) descend from some Germanic West-Central European too? I mean, Norway was pretty isolated.

If my Norwegian Y DNA cousins also descend from some West Germanic guy, then who's to say that there isn't a closer branch that hasn't been tested yet - a branch descending from West Germanics with that same paternal lineage who stayed in mainland Europe? If that's the case, how can we hold that my branch is in-line with the Ashkenazi bottleneck for certain?

This stuff is so much more confusing than PCA plots and IBD analysis interpretation...

JonikW
04-13-2018, 08:26 PM
So is it more likely that my closest Y DNA cousins in Eastern Norway, so to speak (assuming I'm even this particular branch of I1, which is likely the case but not certain), would (if they could trace it) descend from some West Germanic guy? Because they're the only branch remotely close to me: apart from them (1350 ybp), the closest branch to me shares a tmrca all the way back to L338+ (3000 ybp). Basically, if your hypothesis is true, why is the closest branch by about 1500 years (I'm generous with rounding) Norwegian?

I'm sure you saw it already, but just in case, this is the position of the branch in YFull for reference (the Polish and Romanian branch - they're Ashkenazim): https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

Also one further thing - L338+ does look essentially West Germanic, BUT, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's particularly common around Scotland (Nordtvedt saw two centres for L338+ (the Netherlands and Scotland/Northern Ireland (potentially from Protestant settlers in the latter case, potentially not), which is exactly where people thought U106-Ivanhoe was from. U106-Ivanhoe surely went through the bottleneck given about 5% of Ashkenazim belong to that group, so could that still not be the case here?

I think Scotland and L338 can be explained by the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria, which included Edinburgh and its surrounds and was a powerful force in its day.

spruithean
04-13-2018, 08:31 PM
I think a lot of the Z58 clades (especially Z60 and Z140) in Scotland can be attributed to Northumbria, perhaps. Northumbria certainly had a decent level of power in its height until Ecgfrith's defeat at the hands of his maternal cousin Bridei III m. Beli.

But also it is worth noting a number of Bernician nobles and their retinue had taken refuge in both DŠl Riata and amongst the Picts. ∆thelfrith's children are known for this, both Oswald and Oswiu could speak Gaelic and were supporters of the Irish Church. Their brother Eanfrith allegedly fathered a Pictish king named Talorgan mac Enfret.

There was another Bernician noble named Hussa who had a son, Hering, in exile in DŠl Riata. Hering son of Hussa was involved in the DŠl Riatan army at the battle of Degsastan.

JerryS.
04-13-2018, 08:37 PM
Well, I consider "fairly recent" as within about 200 years. Just "recent' gets to the less than one hundred years point.

Some fairly recent scenarios could be:

- adultery

- rape

- guy passing himself off as Jewish to get the Jewish girl

- widow with young son passing herself of as Jewish to get the Jewish guy

- adoption

One spouse could help the other assimilate into the Jewish culture/religion, then move to another area with the appearance of both spouses being born Jewish.

Or perhaps, someone was a servant in a wealthy Jewish household and picked up the knowledge before moving elsewhere and passing.

Jack

I didn't want to be the one to say it.

JonikW
04-13-2018, 09:10 PM
What about converts? Were there any or too dangerous?

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 09:14 PM
I didn't want to be the one to say it.

For God's sake, no, that's impossible to have happened in a way to affect my Y DNA within at least the last 8 generations.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 09:15 PM
What about converts? Were there any or too dangerous?

Well my Y DNA is most likely to have come from a convert, so yeah. Question is where, when and who.

JonikW
04-13-2018, 09:29 PM
Well my Y DNA is most likely to have come from a convert, so yeah. Question is where, when and who.

Well, can you find any records of Christians converting in your part of Europe? Possibly some periods were more likely if you research it. If you think your Y is Norwegian that might come into play too. Possibly Hanseatic times in the Baltic? A sympathiser returning from a late Holy Land crusade (I'm not thinking of the crusades against Baltic pagans here)?

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 10:55 PM
Well, can you find any records of Christians converting in your part of Europe? Possibly some periods were more likely if you research it. If you think your Y is Norwegian that might come into play too. Possibly Hanseatic times in the Baltic? A sympathiser returning from a late Holy Land crusade (I'm not thinking of the crusades against Baltic pagans here)?

I'm pretty confident it's a conversion somewhere in Germany around 1000ybp, and that my Norwegian Y DNA cousins share a common ancestor with me through the paternal line of that convert.

JonikW
04-13-2018, 11:01 PM
So before the first Crusade and accompanying zeal. Makes sense.

Agamemnon
04-13-2018, 11:04 PM
Great summary Aga, I justed want to know when you say not having a reliable Jewish pedigree, you mean not descending from prominent Rabbis and or being a Cohen/Levite?

Not necessarily, many of the less prominent lineages under E-M35.1 seem to have reliable Jewish pedigrees (going back to Judea), markers associated with the priestly classes just became very prominent because said classes were taken very seriously. What I really mean by this is that converts were generally looked down upon, some rabbis in the Talmud even state that converts should marry only other converts and/or mamzerim.


So is it more likely that my closest Y DNA cousins in Eastern Norway, so to speak (assuming I'm even this particular branch of I1, which is likely the case but not certain), would (if they could trace it) descend from some West Germanic guy? Because they're the only branch remotely close to me: apart from them (1350 ybp), the closest branch to me shares a tmrca all the way back to L338+ (3000 ybp). Basically, if your hypothesis is true, why is the closest branch by about 1500 years (I'm generous with rounding) Norwegian?

I'm sure you saw it already, but just in case, this is the position of the branch in YFull for reference (the Polish and Romanian branch - they're Ashkenazim): https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12329/

Also one further thing - L338+ does look essentially West Germanic, BUT, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's particularly common around Scotland (Nordtvedt saw two centres for L338+ (the Netherlands and Scotland/Northern Ireland (potentially from Protestant settlers in the latter case, potentially not), which is exactly where people thought U106-Ivanhoe was from. U106-Ivanhoe surely went through the bottleneck given about 5% of Ashkenazim belong to that group, so could that still not be the case here?

There was some migration from Germany to Norway in the last 500 years, you'll notice that the Norwegian subclade's TMRCA is around 500 years old as well. So this isn't by any means far-fetched. The absence of German matches could be due to sampling bias, I'd surmise this is also what gives us the impression L338 is so common in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I could be wrong though, that's something to keep in mind, I tend to put the emphasis on the linguistic correlations (can't help it, that's what I'm used to) which is primarily why a Scandinavian origin strikes me as somewhat unlikely. As a rule of thumb, Z2535 seems to be diverse in the Upper Rhine region, so from a phylogenetic standpoint an origin in this area would make a whole lot of sense.

I would be very surprised if Y12329's TMRCA didn't have something to do with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, that's the least I can say (it would be a very strange and perplexing coincidence). Otherwise, I don't see much in common with the Ivanhoe cluster, apart from the fact that it is also ultimately Germanic in origin, this cluster is originally Sephardic IIRC.

Ethereal
04-14-2018, 11:06 AM
Not necessarily, many of the less prominent lineages under E-M35.1 seem to have reliable Jewish pedigrees (going back to Judea), markers associated with the priestly classes just became very prominent because said classes were taken very seriously. What I really mean by this is that converts were generally looked down upon, some rabbis in the Talmud even state that converts should marry only other converts and/or mamzerim.



There was some migration from Germany to Norway in the last 500 years, you'll notice that the Norwegian subclade's TMRCA is around 500 years old as well. So this isn't by any means far-fetched. The absence of German matches could be due to sampling bias, I'd surmise this is also what gives us the impression L338 is so common in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I could be wrong though, that's something to keep in mind, I tend to put the emphasis on the linguistic correlations (can't help it, that's what I'm used to) which is primarily why a Scandinavian origin strikes me as somewhat unlikely. As a rule of thumb, Z2535 seems to be diverse in the Upper Rhine region, so from a phylogenetic standpoint an origin in this area would make a whole lot of sense.

I would be very surprised if Y12329's TMRCA didn't have something to do with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, that's the least I can say (it would be a very strange and perplexing coincidence). Otherwise, I don't see much in common with the Ivanhoe cluster, apart from the fact that it is also ultimately Germanic in origin, this cluster is originally Sephardic IIRC.

The tmrca within the Ashkenazi branch is only about 400 ybp though (only 2 people though!), it's just that the Ashkenazi and Norwegians share a common ancestor 1350 ybp. The Ashkenazi branch is I-Y12663 which is a subclade of I-Y12329, which has a tmrca of 1350 ybp (between the Ashkenazi and Norwegian branches).

Does this still fit in with the branch existing before the bottleneck? I mean, this is saying the branch "became" Jewish around 1350 ybp, which roughly makes sense with the bottleneck, especially considering there are no closer branches, but the tmrca between the only Ashkenazim who have tested enough SNPs to get onto YFull is only about 400 ybp, BUT the map of Ashkenazim with this Y DNA is pretty spread out (http://semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/774/).

Ethereal
04-14-2018, 11:47 AM
Not necessarily, many of the less prominent lineages under E-M35.1 seem to have reliable Jewish pedigrees (going back to Judea), markers associated with the priestly classes just became very prominent because said classes were taken very seriously. What I really mean by this is that converts were generally looked down upon, some rabbis in the Talmud even state that converts should marry only other converts and/or mamzerim.



There was some migration from Germany to Norway in the last 500 years, you'll notice that the Norwegian subclade's TMRCA is around 500 years old as well. So this isn't by any means far-fetched. The absence of German matches could be due to sampling bias, I'd surmise this is also what gives us the impression L338 is so common in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I could be wrong though, that's something to keep in mind, I tend to put the emphasis on the linguistic correlations (can't help it, that's what I'm used to) which is primarily why a Scandinavian origin strikes me as somewhat unlikely. As a rule of thumb, Z2535 seems to be diverse in the Upper Rhine region, so from a phylogenetic standpoint an origin in this area would make a whole lot of sense.

I would be very surprised if Y12329's TMRCA didn't have something to do with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, that's the least I can say (it would be a very strange and perplexing coincidence). Otherwise, I don't see much in common with the Ivanhoe cluster, apart from the fact that it is also ultimately Germanic in origin, this cluster is originally Sephardic IIRC.

Thanks so much for your interpretive help as always!

Ethereal
04-14-2018, 03:50 PM
Not necessarily, many of the less prominent lineages under E-M35.1 seem to have reliable Jewish pedigrees (going back to Judea), markers associated with the priestly classes just became very prominent because said classes were taken very seriously. What I really mean by this is that converts were generally looked down upon, some rabbis in the Talmud even state that converts should marry only other converts and/or mamzerim.



There was some migration from Germany to Norway in the last 500 years, you'll notice that the Norwegian subclade's TMRCA is around 500 years old as well. So this isn't by any means far-fetched. The absence of German matches could be due to sampling bias, I'd surmise this is also what gives us the impression L338 is so common in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I could be wrong though, that's something to keep in mind, I tend to put the emphasis on the linguistic correlations (can't help it, that's what I'm used to) which is primarily why a Scandinavian origin strikes me as somewhat unlikely. As a rule of thumb, Z2535 seems to be diverse in the Upper Rhine region, so from a phylogenetic standpoint an origin in this area would make a whole lot of sense.

I would be very surprised if Y12329's TMRCA didn't have something to do with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, that's the least I can say (it would be a very strange and perplexing coincidence). Otherwise, I don't see much in common with the Ivanhoe cluster, apart from the fact that it is also ultimately Germanic in origin, this cluster is originally Sephardic IIRC.

Sorry, last quote.

The Ashkenazi branch was formed 1350 ybp but has a tmrca of 375 ybp - I understand what tmrca is, but what does it mean for the branch to be formed 1350ybp? Is that just when it split off from the Norwegian line? If so, I don't see what that has to do with the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

deadly77
04-15-2018, 12:26 AM
Yes, that's when the two branches split off from each other and don't share common SNPs after that. The TMRCA is based on the multiple shared SNPs. The chronological order of the shared SNPs can't be known until more people test within that small group, and then further definition of the phylogenetic tree could occur. It's also important to note that these dates are estimates and have error bars associated with them, especially on such a small sample population where the statistical noise could be expected to be higher. If you hover your cursor over the "formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp", you'll see a notification pop up that says "formed CI 95% 1950<->850 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 850<->150ybp" - I'm presuming that CI stands for confidence interval, so that date of 1350 ybp could be between 600 years earlier or 500 years later.

deadly77
04-15-2018, 12:35 AM
https://www.yfull.com/faq/how-does-yfull-determine-formed-age-tmrca-and-ci/

Ethereal
04-15-2018, 09:03 AM
Yes, that's when the two branches split off from each other and don't share common SNPs after that. The TMRCA is based on the multiple shared SNPs. The chronological order of the shared SNPs can't be known until more people test within that small group, and then further definition of the phylogenetic tree could occur. It's also important to note that these dates are estimates and have error bars associated with them, especially on such a small sample population where the statistical noise could be expected to be higher. If you hover your cursor over the "formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp", you'll see a notification pop up that says "formed CI 95% 1950<->850 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 850<->150ybp" - I'm presuming that CI stands for confidence interval, so that date of 1350 ybp could be between 600 years earlier or 500 years later.

So if a closer branch tests, my formed date will become more recent?

So basically I can never know how old my branch actually is?

spruithean
04-15-2018, 11:33 AM
So if a closer branch tests, my formed date will become more recent?

So basically I can never know how old my branch actually is?

Every estimated date is simply that, an estimate. The TMRCA and formed dates can be far older or far younger than currently predicted.

Ethereal
04-15-2018, 11:53 AM
Every estimated date is simply that, an estimate. The TMRCA and formed dates can be far older or far younger than currently predicted.

Well there can't be a further away branch that is my closest branch...

deadly77
04-15-2018, 08:45 PM
So if a closer branch tests, my formed date will become more recent?

So basically I can never know how old my branch actually is?

As Spruithean says, these are estimates. I think of them as educated guesses rather than absolutes. It's worth bearing in mind that the methodology behind this is relatively new and everything is subject to reevaluation as new data comes in. The SNP L338 wasn't on the ISOGG tree until 2011, Z140 not until 2012, Z2535 not until 2013. The SNPs such as A1940, etc. that form the Norweigian/Polish/Romanian branch that we're discussing didn't appear on the ISOGG haplotree until 2017, while they were on the YFull tree in 2015, didn't split the Norwegian and Polish/Romanian branches on the YFull tree until 2016.

There is an alternative dating calculation that Dr Iain MacDonald developed if you want a second opinion. He's an astrophysicist at University of Manchester and he's into genetic genealogy, largely focused on some of the R1b subclades. His website appears to be down at the moment, but when active it has a tool where you can enter the data and it will calculate TMRCA. As I said, his website not connecting currently, but was able to connect to his methodology https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/pipeline-summary.pdf

With a small number of samples (in this case two samples on the YFull tree), the standard deviation is going to be larger. More samples will help refine that, but not everyone does BigY and not everyone who does BigY uploads to YFull. For example, within the Z140 project at FTDNA, the two individuals that have uploaded to YFull as branch I-Y12663 are in the FTDNA project, but also another individual who lists earliest paternal ancestor from Poland. FTDNA splits them further after the hg38 conversion - the Romanian and one of the Poles are I-A1965 and the remaining Pole is I-A1972. FTDNA's haplotree has A1965 downstream on their tree from A1972. A1965 is not on YFull's haplotree - it's likely in the Romanian's private SNPs according to their analysis.

But my point about the confidence interval was that rather that focusing in on 1350 ybp, and rejecting dates that are too early or too late from that - it's actually a spread of 1100 years from 1950 to 850 ybp that should be considered.

deadly77
04-15-2018, 09:06 PM
Well there can't be a further away branch that is my closest branch...

It's not confirmed that this is your closest branch - right now we just know that you're both I1 and Ashkenazi, and they've tested further down from I-M253. I had a brief look in some of the projects at FTDNA - there was this one from the Jewish Prussia project which lists five I1 individuals on their public results page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishprussia/default.aspx?section=yresults

One of them is the I-A1965 individual from Romania who is in the Z140 project and at YFull. Another is I-A5672. After looking at his SNPs, he's also positive for Y7477, which is also within the Z140 subclade but on a different branch to L338 (and therefore a much earlier common ancestor). Another is I-A1357, which again is part of Z140 but not L338 and rather part of the F2642/S2169 branch.

While it's entirely probable that you're related to the I-Y12663 group, it does look like there are other I1 Jewish lineages which are not closely related to these. I realize that these may not be Ashkenazi Jewish, and may be some other branch - I'm not very familiar with the different branches and apologize for my ignorance if that's the case.

It would be very easy to check - FTDNA and YSEQ are the only places that do a la carte SNP testing - FTDNA charges $39 per single SNP and tests A1972, A1990 and A1996 from the I-Y12663 group as well as over 10 from the larger shared group I-Y12329 with the Norwegian branch. YSEQ charges $18 per single SNP and tests A1996 from I-Y12663, as well as A1967 and A1940 from I-Y12329. YSEQ also has a "wish-a-snp" option for SNPs not currently in their catalogue. Both also sell SNP packs that will cover these - I-Z2535 SNP Pack from FTDNA for $119 and the I-Z140 SNP Pack for $88.

Ethereal
04-15-2018, 09:17 PM
It's not confirmed that this is your closest branch - right now we just know that you're both I1 and Ashkenazi, and they've tested further down from I-M253. I had a brief look in some of the projects at FTDNA - there was this one from the Jewish Prussia project which lists five I1 individuals on their public results page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishprussia/default.aspx?section=yresults

One of them is the I-A1965 individual from Romania who is in the Z140 project and at YFull. Another is I-A5672. After looking at his SNPs, he's also positive for Y7477, which is also within the Z140 subclade but on a different branch to L338 (and therefore a much earlier common ancestor). Another is I-A1357, which again is part of Z140 but not L338 and rather part of the F2642/S2169 branch.

While it's entirely probable that you're related to the I-Y12663 group, it does look like there are other I1 Jewish lineages which are not closely related to these. I realize that these may not be Ashkenazi Jewish, and may be some other branch - I'm not very familiar with the different branches and apologize for my ignorance if that's the case.

It would be very easy to check - FTDNA and YSEQ are the only places that do a la carte SNP testing - FTDNA charges $39 per single SNP and tests A1972, A1990 and A1996 from the I-Y12663 group as well as over 10 from the larger shared group I-Y12329 with the Norwegian branch. YSEQ charges $18 per single SNP and tests A1996 from I-Y12663, as well as A1967 and A1940 from I-Y12329. YSEQ also has a "wish-a-snp" option for SNPs not currently in their catalogue. Both also sell SNP packs that will cover these - I-Z2535 SNP Pack from FTDNA for $119 and the I-Z140 SNP Pack for $88.

Thanks for the response - I think I'm definitely going to do that! As for there being multiple Ashkenazi I1s - I believe many of those individuals don't have Jewish paternal lines (not in the sense of going back to Israel (as obviously I1 doesn't), but in the sense of going back, say, over 500 years at a minimum). jewishdna.net has a pretty large data pool, so they'd pick it up if there were another Y DNA I1.

deadly77
04-16-2018, 07:22 AM
Thanks for the response - I think I'm definitely going to do that! As for there being multiple Ashkenazi I1s - I believe many of those individuals don't have Jewish paternal lines (not in the sense of going back to Israel (as obviously I1 doesn't), but in the sense of going back, say, over 500 years at a minimum). jewishdna.net has a pretty large data pool, so they'd pick it up if there were another Y DNA I1.

Yes, I just took a very quick look and I didn't go through all of the projects - your point is valid and as you said, I don't know about their history. All I can see is a terminal SNP and what they put down as their most distant paternal ancestor. They could have been recent converts. I have no idea how their ancestors joined the Jewish faith, but they evidently self-identify as Jewish.

I'm not saying that you're not related to the I-Y12663 folks, but there's a mechanism to confirm that before perhaps going too far down a rabbit hole. That's why my initial suggestion was the I1 superclade pack - if you're not, it would tell you where you are. If you're reasonably confident, it's worth a punt on the direct SNP testing I suggested above.

A little off-topic from the main conversation, but I feel it's relevant - I'm pretty sure that my ggg-grandfather on my Y line was illegitimate and that was one of my main reasons for testing on the Y DNA. My initial STR results came back with a lot of matches to a certain surname (Gordon) - I spent a lot of time looking up Gordon lines from Scotland trying to figure out how we connected. Turns out most people who are L338+ connect with Gordons on their STR matches at FTDNA even if they are not closely related via SNP due to STR convergence and back mutations which makes the genetic distance look closer than it is. So that was my time going down a rabbit hole that wasn't closely related to me.

If your FTDNA data comes back as related the branches we've discussed, you're welcome to join your FTDNA results to the Z140 project at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/z140/about as well as our facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/I1.Z140.YDNA.Project/

Ethereal
04-16-2018, 08:39 AM
Yes, I just took a very quick look and I didn't go through all of the projects - your point is valid and as you said, I don't know about their history. All I can see is a terminal SNP and what they put down as their most distant paternal ancestor. They could have been recent converts. I have no idea how their ancestors joined the Jewish faith, but they evidently self-identify as Jewish.

I'm not saying that you're not related to the I-Y12663 folks, but there's a mechanism to confirm that before perhaps going too far down a rabbit hole. That's why my initial suggestion was the I1 superclade pack - if you're not, it would tell you where you are. If you're reasonably confident, it's worth a punt on the direct SNP testing I suggested above.

A little off-topic from the main conversation, but I feel it's relevant - I'm pretty sure that my ggg-grandfather on my Y line was illegitimate and that was one of my main reasons for testing on the Y DNA. My initial STR results came back with a lot of matches to a certain surname (Gordon) - I spent a lot of time looking up Gordon lines from Scotland trying to figure out how we connected. Turns out most people who are L338+ connect with Gordons on their STR matches at FTDNA even if they are not closely related via SNP due to STR convergence and back mutations which makes the genetic distance look closer than it is. So that was my time going down a rabbit hole that wasn't closely related to me.

If your FTDNA data comes back as related the branches we've discussed, you're welcome to join your FTDNA results to the Z140 project at FTDNA here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/z140/about as well as our facebook group here https://www.facebook.com/groups/I1.Z140.YDNA.Project/

My kit is going to reach FTDNA today, so I'll get my results probably sometime in June. Pretty annoying that this stuff takes so long to process, I've never understood how it could possibly take almost (and often) two months...

deadly77
04-16-2018, 10:25 PM
My kit is going to reach FTDNA today, so I'll get my results probably sometime in June. Pretty annoying that this stuff takes so long to process, I've never understood how it could possibly take almost (and often) two months...

Leah Larkin keeps a running log on the average processing time for tests at her blog here: http://thednageek.com/dna-tests/ - it's mostly focused on autosomal tests since more people test those, but does include some of the other tests further down. The slowest step in getting a sample to FTDNA in my experience is the postage - mine just sat in limbo in a post office in North Houston for about 2-3 weeks.

Ethereal
04-16-2018, 11:20 PM
Leah Larkin keeps a running log on the average processing time for tests at her blog here: http://thednageek.com/dna-tests/ - it's mostly focused on autosomal tests since more people test those, but does include some of the other tests further down. The slowest step in getting a sample to FTDNA in my experience is the postage - mine just sat in limbo in a post office in North Houston for about 2-3 weeks.

Jesus that's terrible! Mine's in Houston right now, but hasn't yet reached them. Hopefully it isn't in the same boat your package was in...

C J Wyatt III
04-17-2018, 02:25 AM
Jesus that's terrible! Mine's in Houston right now, but hasn't yet reached them. Hopefully it isn't in the same boat your package was in...

I ordered a SNP from YSEQ on 8/2/2017. The company received the sample on 8/29/2017 after being mailed from the USA to Germany. The result was available on 9/5/2017. Perhaps you can test for a few of those SNP's which you think you might have while your are waiting on FTDNA.

Jack

Power77
04-17-2018, 02:00 PM
I'm fairly certain that your lineage experienced the bottleneck, as the TMRCA estimate is in line with that of virtually every Ashkenazi lineage. Unlike most of the other Jewish lineages however, it does not seem to have been through a series of major founder effects, there are other Jewish lineages (like E1a-M44 or R1b-Z56).

Are you saying that Ashkenazi E-M44 carriers are descended from converts:confused:?

Agamemnon
04-17-2018, 02:05 PM
Are you saying that Ashkenazi E-M44 carriers are descended from converts:confused:?

No. What I am saying is that E1a-M44's frequency remains relatively low, despite the fact that this lineage obviously went through the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

ADW_1981
04-17-2018, 02:26 PM
Actually the real common ancestor would be between 3000 - 1350 years ago if you look at what Yfull is really saying. Unlikely he was a ethnic Norwegian. I would hedge my bet that he was central European, but in truth he could have actually been anywhere. I1 has turned up in a few unlikely places such as SE Europe and parts of the northern Middle East. Unlikely to be ancient in the Middle East but I wouldn't rule out late Bronze or early Iron age when it could have moved that far south.

Ethereal
04-17-2018, 02:54 PM
Actually the real common ancestor would be between 3000 - 1350 years ago if you look at what Yfull is really saying. Unlikely he was a ethnic Norwegian. I would hedge my bet that he was central European, but in truth he could have actually been anywhere. I1 has turned up in a few unlikely places such as SE Europe and parts of the northern Middle East. Unlikely to be ancient in the Middle East but I wouldn't rule out late Bronze or early Iron age when it could have moved that far south.

That's just wrong, it's anywhere between 1350 and 375 ybp.

This is the branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12663/

If my most recent common ancestor is with Norwegians 1350ybp, and assuming they aren't descended from Jews (I mean what are the odds of that), then my most recent non-Jewish paternal ancestor was 1350 ybp. How can my most recent common ancestor be earlier than that?!

No. It's between 1350 ybp and 375 ybp. I agree with Aga, it likely took place when Ashknazim settled in the Rhineland - but whether it was from converting a pagan sometime in the 7th century AD or a Christian anywhere up to roughly the turn of the millenium is something that we cannot yet know from YFull. Hypothetically, this non-Jewish paternal line ancestor could have been merely 400 years ago, but that's exceedingly unlikely.

tl;dr YFull has (and this is all probably, nothing for certain) told me I belong to a branch typical in the Rhineland, and that I share a common German ancestor from this region with a bunch of Eastern Norwegians around the 7th century AD. This doesn't mean the conversion took place during the 7th century AD.

Ethereal
04-17-2018, 03:11 PM
Leah Larkin keeps a running log on the average processing time for tests at her blog here: http://thednageek.com/dna-tests/ - it's mostly focused on autosomal tests since more people test those, but does include some of the other tests further down. The slowest step in getting a sample to FTDNA in my experience is the postage - mine just sat in limbo in a post office in North Houston for about 2-3 weeks.

Arriving today for sure, thankfully. So should get my results back late May (if I'm lucky)/early June.

ADW_1981
04-17-2018, 06:31 PM
That's just wrong, it's anywhere between 1350 and 375 ybp.

This is the branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12663/

If my most recent common ancestor is with Norwegians 1350ybp, and assuming they aren't descended from Jews (I mean what are the odds of that), then my most recent non-Jewish paternal ancestor was 1350 ybp. How can my most recent common ancestor be earlier than that?!

No. It's between 1350 ybp and 375 ybp. I agree with Aga, it likely took place when Ashknazim settled in the Rhineland - but whether it was from converting a pagan sometime in the 7th century AD or a Christian anywhere up to roughly the turn of the millenium is something that we cannot yet know from YFull. Hypothetically, this non-Jewish paternal line ancestor could have been merely 400 years ago, but that's exceedingly unlikely.

tl;dr YFull has (and this is all probably, nothing for certain) told me I belong to a branch typical in the Rhineland, and that I share a common German ancestor from this region with a bunch of Eastern Norwegians around the 7th century AD. This doesn't mean the conversion took place during the 7th century AD.

No, I'm afraid you are misreading the data. You are in a parallel branch to a group of Norwegians who share a parent that goes back to an estimate of 3000 ybp and as young as 1350 based on the child branches. It's pretty safe to say that the parent wasn't born 1350 years ago at the same time as both child branches, but that is technically the latest it could be based on all available data using their methodology.

I suspect a central European origin is likely, heck the conversion might even be quite young from an unsampled central European population, but it's impossible to determine without more data. Just a reminder that I1 exists, by migration or otherwise in modern southern European populations such as Iberians, south Italians, Greeks, and even the northern Middle East like Lebanon. (suggested as Crusaders by earlier authors)

Ethereal
04-17-2018, 06:43 PM
No, I'm afraid you are misreading the data. You are in a parallel branch to a group of Norwegians who share a parent that goes back to an estimate of 3000 ybp and as young as 1350 based on the child branches. It's pretty safe to say that the parent wasn't born 1350 years ago at the same time as both child branches, but that is technically the latest it could be based on all available data using their methodology.

I suspect a central European origin is likely, heck the conversion might even be quite young from an unsampled central European population, but it's impossible to determine without more data. Just a reminder that I1 exists, by migration or otherwise in modern southern European populations such as Iberians, south Italians, Greeks, and even the northern Middle East like Lebanon. (suggested as Crusaders by earlier authors)

If I'm not mistaken, the formed date of 3000 ybp comes from the date in which it separated from the other L338+ branches, BUT that the tmrca date comes from the date in which this 3000 ybp old branch began to have its own branches itself (so the data is saying that from 3000 ybp to 1350 ybp, this paternal line either kept having one male that would itself reproduce one male, or more broadly that any extra males produced from holders of this Y DNA would have their line of male descendants extinguished. This doesn't seem likely, it's probably more to do with undersampling. Also, I know SNP mutations don't necessarily happen each generation, which seems incongruent with this model, but all it means if mutations didn't happen each generation is that the 3000 ybp number would come down).

I'm pretty confident in what I'm saying, but apparently so are you, so we're going to need to get a third opinion. I emailed Wim Penninx a few weeks back, and he agrees with what I've been saying. What does Agamemnon think?

deadly77
04-17-2018, 10:21 PM
My thoughts - the "formed" 3000 ybp (95% CI 3400-2500 ybp) is when the first SNP of that lineage diverges from the other known branches below L338 (eg. S12289, Y15155, Y33691). Then the five folks on YFull in I-Y12329 branch shares 15 reliable SNPs representing a single lineage which results in the TMRCA of 1350 ybp (95% CI 1950-850 ybp) based on all of those SNPs together. We don't know the order of those SNPs so they're currently listed as phyloequivalent.
At some point between 1950 and 850 ybp the two lines diverged from their common ancestor, leading to the two branches I-Y12663 and I-A8673 and so for both of them the TMRCA of the common ancestor becomes the "formed" date of their branch. From there the two branches have different TMRCA based on the downstream SNPs that they share in their own individual branch.

Ethereal
04-17-2018, 10:47 PM
My thoughts - the "formed" 3000 ybp (95% CI 3400-2500 ybp) is when the first SNP of that lineage diverges from the other known branches below L338 (eg. S12289, Y15155, Y33691). Then the five folks on YFull in I-Y12329 branch shares 15 reliable SNPs representing a single lineage which results in the TMRCA of 1350 ybp (95% CI 1950-850 ybp) based on all of those SNPs together. We don't know the order of those SNPs so they're currently listed as phyloequivalent.
At some point between 1950 and 850 ybp the two lines diverged from their common ancestor, leading to the two branches I-Y12663 and I-A8673 and so for both of them the TMRCA of the common ancestor becomes the "formed" date of their branch. From there the two branches have different TMRCA based on the downstream SNPs that they share in their own individual branch.

Agreed - so the conversion must have taken place, at the earliest 1350 ybp (yes, I know there's a range, but I'm just using the best guess), and at the latest (again, best guess), 375 ybp.

deadly77
04-18-2018, 06:11 AM
Agreed - so the conversion must have taken place, at the earliest 1350 ybp (yes, I know there's a range, but I'm just using the best guess), and at the latest (again, best guess), 375 ybp.

Ah, okay - I see your thinking now - the TMRCA of two folks with the Polish/Romanian branch is what you're calling the last chance for the common I1 ancestor to be Ashkenazi - and it's most likely earlier than that, but definitely not after.

Ethereal
04-18-2018, 02:29 PM
Ah, okay - I see your thinking now - the TMRCA of two folks with the Polish/Romanian branch is what you're calling the last chance for the common I1 ancestor to be Ashkenazi - and it's most likely earlier than that, but definitely not after.

Yup, agreed. And it can't be earlier than 1350 ybp, because this is how long ago it was that the Ashkenazim and Norwegians descend from the same man, and this man is super unlikely to be Jewish (the Norwegians won't be descended from a Jew, I mean what are the odds), so because of that he must have been non-Jewish (probably German). So the range is between 1350 to 375 ybp for the conversion.

It probably took place while Jews were in the Rhineland, given the origin of this haplogroup. So basically, the origin of Ashkenazi I1 is very likely to be from a convert who lived somewhere in the Rhineland, and that this conversion took place roughly between the time of Charlemagne and the Rhineland massacres. Maybe a bit earlier, when the Rhineland was pagan, maybe a bit later, when Jews were beginning to flock to Poland. More sampling is needed to gain a more definite resolution of what the answer may be.

It's an interesting case though - and if you think about it, it's fucking amazing that we can deduce all of this in the first place - DNA is awesome!!!

deadly77
04-19-2018, 06:00 AM
Indeed - could only have known about this through YDNA - percentages would have been well diluted in any autosomal test over that time frame. Also big props to the folks in that subclade who took Big Y or similar tests and shared their data to help define the haplotree. I'm L338+ but negative for all the known branches below that, so hoping for more definition in the future.

deadly77
04-19-2018, 10:28 PM
There's a pretty neat tool called SAPP developed by David Vance that can be found here: http://www.jdvtools.com/SAPP/ - there was a discussion about it in one of the Facebook groups today and a few people recommended it. Looks like you can input Y-STR values and Y-SNP values and then the program will calculate a mutation tree with TMRCA - so a little different to the YFull method which uses SNPs. The STRs have faster mutation rate compared to SNPs so maybe a finer scale look at the differences with the trade off of more error from back-mutations, etc.
I'd not used the tool before, so I thought I'd give it a try with the I-Y12329 branch that we're discussing. The FTDNA I1-Z140 project has the STR values for the folks who have uploaded to YFull, plus an additional two who didn't upload to YFull.
Putting just the STR values into the SAPP tool gives the following tree: 22673
The tool assigns a group TMRCA as circa 800 AD (600-1000 AD, using 67% range - one standard deviation) using 28 years per generation and rounding to nearest 50 years. Then the Poland/Romania branch with estimated TMRCA c. 1400 (1250-1550). Norwegian branch has a much closer common ancestor that they are descended from, with TMRCA c. 1900 (1750-1950).
Adding in the SNPs (6 of the testers have done Big Y) made the diagram a bit more messy to read but looked like the TMRCA didn't change. It did appear to solidify the connections with the Norwegians who had done Big Y (and therefore had SNP data) with thicker blue lines. 22674 - probably would be a lot less messy if I'd just included the SNPs downstream of L338.
Rather nice tool - quick and easy to use. Thanks to David Vance for making this freely available.

Wheal
05-17-2018, 04:42 PM
Or, maybe, some handsome Norwegian hunk fell for some gorgeous Ashkenazi bombshell and voila! New Y line.

spruithean
05-17-2018, 06:21 PM
Or, maybe, some handsome Norwegian hunk fell for some gorgeous Ashkenazi bombshell and voila! New Y line.

Anything is possible! Though I am not Ashkenazi, I least expected to fall under haplogroup I1... especially with a Scottish clan surname.

JerryS.
05-17-2018, 10:47 PM
Or, maybe, some handsome Norwegian hunk fell for some gorgeous Ashkenazi bombshell and voila! New Y line.

That's what a few of us were thinking at least that's what seems to be the most plausible at this point but you never know

Ethereal
06-11-2018, 04:44 PM
Results are back - no Y37 matches at all, with some at Y25 with a genetic distance of 2. Any advice?

Ethereal
06-11-2018, 04:48 PM
One of the people who I have a genetic match of 2 with at Y25 (again, none at Y37) is Z59, which means either this is from a more recent conversion back in Poland, or I need to do the BigY (or whatever it’s called) to revise the data estimate of Ashkenazi I1.

Ethereal
06-11-2018, 05:24 PM
Actually, from my STR values, it looks like I’m extremely likely to be Z63+, which makes it look like a relatively recent conversion (it positively cannot have been within the last few hundred years as it would have shown autosomally) - or an entirely undiscovered Ashkenazi I1 branch (from a conversion ultimately anyway).

I guess SNPs are the only way to find out - way too expensive to go deep though

JerryS.
06-11-2018, 06:07 PM
Actually, from my STR values, it looks like I’m extremely likely to be Z63+, which makes it look like a relatively recent conversion (it positively cannot have been within the last few hundred years as it would have shown autosomally) - or an entirely undiscovered Ashkenazi I1 branch (from a conversion ultimately anyway).

I guess SNPs are the only way to find out - way too expensive to go deep though


I'm curious as to why you say it must be from a recent conversion from Poland when you say a lot of your matches are Scandinavian.

C J Wyatt III
06-11-2018, 06:26 PM
Results are back - no Y37 matches at all, with some at Y25 with a genetic distance of 2. Any advice?

When I look at my Y-37 matches, it give me a list of ones with genetic distance from 0-4. The list is quite sizable - over 200 matched I believe.

Are you saying that you get absolutely nothing at Y37 or just no GD=0 matches?

Jack

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:17 PM
I'm curious as to why you say it must be from a recent conversion from Poland when you say a lot of your matches are Scandinavian.

Being stupid again I see - thereís no point in me speaking to you anymore

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:19 PM
When I look at my Y-37 matches, it give me a list of ones with genetic distance from 0-4. The list is quite sizable - over 200 matched I believe.

Are you saying that you get absolutely nothing at Y37 or just no GD=0 matches?

Jack

Absolutely no matches at Y37, only a few at Y25 (all GD=2). Basically, no paternal line relatives remotely close to me.

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:28 PM
When I look at my Y-37 matches, it give me a list of ones with genetic distance from 0-4. The list is quite sizable - over 200 matched I believe.

Are you saying that you get absolutely nothing at Y37 or just no GD=0 matches?

Jack

I get 54 matches at 12 markers, all with GD=0. I get 7 matches at 25 markers, all with GD=2. I get 0 matches at 37 markers.

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:29 PM
Damn it it’s probably my duty to get the Big Y but it’s so damn expensive.

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:33 PM
My DYS456 value is 14, which apparently means I’m Z63+, though I don’t know if you can predict SNPs from STRs. Supports a conversion in Germany, which would have to be way way way back.

Ethereal
06-13-2018, 10:41 PM
Anybody know what this shows? If that STR value for DYS456 is anything to go by, Iím Z63+, so not Z140+, though I guess a backmutation is possible. No recent common lines, so Iím guessing an old conversion, but why not more Z63+ Jews then? Maybe it wasnít THAT old, but still pretty old. Z63+ suggests Germany, strongly.

Are there any Z63+ tests from FTDNA?

C J Wyatt III
06-13-2018, 11:56 PM
My DYS456 value is 14, which apparently means Iím Z63+, though I donít know if you can predict SNPs from STRs. Supports a conversion in Germany, which would have to be way way way back.

I am 14 on DYS456. My patrilineal line probably goes back through an English (Norman?) knight of the Third Crusade.

If you have not already done so, you should consider joining the I1 Project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i1/dna-results

According to how you get grouped, administrators might have a recommendation for the next step in testing. With a little bit of luck, you might find that testing a single SNP will move you pretty far along and save getting the Big Y for now.

Good luck!


Jack

oz
06-15-2018, 01:47 AM
Damn it itís probably my duty to get the Big Y but itís so damn expensive.

My avatar is a map of I-Z63 based on Ftdna. If you belong to this subclade chances are your ancestor probably isn't from Scandinavia as it's more common in continental Europe, probably the most common in Germany and Poland, but I don't have enough information to be absolutely sure. I would like to know how old it is, where did it originate, who spread it and how did it get to me and where I'm from. You being Ashkenazi Jewish it gets even more complicated and interesting considering how rare I1 is found in Jews.

I hope you get some answers soon.

deadly77
06-15-2018, 05:51 AM
You could try plugging you Y-37 STR results into the Nevgen predictor http://www.nevgen.org/ - just make sure that you click on the icon on the top left that looks like three sliders on a mixing desk - that will bring up a left hand menu and you need to select "subclades of I" or it will tell just tell you that you're I1. Based on your matches data, it's likely to tell you that you're a "unsupported subclade" but it's worth a go.

Regarding your question of single SNP tests - yep, FTDNA does those for $39 a SNP. When you're at your homepage, look to the blue "upgrade" button at the top right, click that and then scroll down to advanced tests. You can also get single SNP test from YSEQ for $18 (much better value, faster turnaround and larger SNP catalogue) but sometimes people like to have all of their results in one place. Both companies offer various SNP packs that may get you closer to where you need to zero in on. In my opinion, the YSEQ I1 superclade panel is the best bang for your buck on the known haplotree. Of course, if you're on a unknown branch, this may not tell you much.

Ethereal
06-15-2018, 04:16 PM
Iíve ordered an I1-M253 SNP pack. Will post results - it will show if Iím part of the Ashkenazi group or not (well, it can prove if Iím not). If not, then Iíd be struggling to understand what actually happened, as it would have to be a conversion many hundreds of years ago at a time of massive isolation from the Polish community, but not only that, my Y DNA is not at all typically Polish.

Time will tell, but it would bloody help if FTDNA werenít organised so terribly!

Ethereal
07-14-2018, 02:59 AM
So as it turns out, Iím I1-Z138. Iím not going to spend the money on the big Y to figure out whether my branch is a recent conversion or not, but my lineage looks broadly West Germanic (and with little resolution beyond that) - thanks for the help!

C J Wyatt III
07-14-2018, 03:53 AM
So as it turns out, I’m I1-Z138. I’m not going to spend the money on the big Y to figure out whether my branch is a recent conversion or not, but my lineage looks broadly West Germanic (and with little resolution beyond that) - thanks for the help!


Thanks for the update.

A new group for I-Z382+ was recently formed. I hope you will join.


Jack


edit: Nevermind! I did not see what I thought I saw.

deadly77
07-14-2018, 12:39 PM
So as it turns out, I’m I1-Z138. I’m not going to spend the money on the big Y to figure out whether my branch is a recent conversion or not, but my lineage looks broadly West Germanic (and with little resolution beyond that) - thanks for the help!

Well, I guess that rules out a common ancestor with the I-Z140 Polish/Romanian/Norwegian folks that we discussed earlier in the thread. I-Z138 seems to be rather dispersed all over the place, but from what I understand it's a pretty active group and the project at FTDNA looks like it has had a lot of people SNP tetsted. You could join your Y37 results to the project here and it may give you some ideas on where or who you fit more closely to: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-z138y-dna/dna-results - one of the admins is the same as the guy who admins our I-Z140 project - he's pretty hepful. They also have a facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Z138Project/

deadly77
07-14-2018, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the update.

A new group for I-Z382+ was recently formed. I hope you will join.


Jack

I-Z382 is on a different branch to I-Z138. Last common ancestor at I-Z59.

C J Wyatt III
07-14-2018, 04:16 PM
I-Z382 is on a different branch to I-Z138. Last common ancestor at I-Z59.

Sorry my mind and eyesight were not sync'd last night.

Jack

deadly77
07-14-2018, 05:15 PM
Sorry my mind and eyesight were not sync'd last night.

Jack

No worries - happens to the best of us.

spruithean
07-16-2018, 03:47 PM
So as it turns out, I’m I1-Z138. I’m not going to spend the money on the big Y to figure out whether my branch is a recent conversion or not, but my lineage looks broadly West Germanic (and with little resolution beyond that) - thanks for the help!

Have you joined the I1-Z138 DNA Project at FTDNA? They might be able to help place you in a subgroup of I1-Z138.

dporter
12-15-2019, 06:55 AM
I recently received my results from a South African company called Be Happy To Be You (BH2BU). I am also I1 and my test returned 15% Ashkenazi. Doing the maths and what I know about family history, it appears the source is my direct paternal great-grandfather. We don't know who he is, no name, nothing.

Unfortunately BH2BU doesn't offer raw data downloads. They are a relatively new company, so I'm hoping by the time I get updated results, they will have developed their product offering.

StillWater
12-15-2019, 07:25 PM
I recently received my results from a South African company called Be Happy To Be You (BH2BU). I am also I1 and my test returned 15% Ashkenazi. Doing the maths and what I know about family history, it appears the source is my direct paternal great-grandfather. We don't know who he is, no name, nothing.

Unfortunately BH2BU doesn't offer raw data downloads. They are a relatively new company, so I'm hoping by the time I get updated results, they will have developed their product offering.

I don't know anything about this company. Unless you have a clear paper trail for your patrilineage, it's unlikely.

dporter
12-16-2019, 08:59 AM
I don't know anything about this company. Unless you have a clear paper trail for your patrilineage, it's unlikely.

They are relatively new, and set up specifically for the Southern African market to increase the number of relevant samples Southern African customers can be compared to. Ideally I would test with another company for comparison and ask various relatives to test too, but with currency exchange rates, that would be way out of my budget.