PDA

View Full Version : General Sephardic Genetics/History



Pages : [1] 2 3

vertus
03-25-2018, 11:19 PM
Hello,

Is there any good way to track Sephardic jews ancestry with Gedmatch?

Regads

MihaiTepes
08-04-2019, 11:47 AM
(Mother) Eurogene K13

32153
32154

digital_noise
08-05-2019, 07:55 PM
Here is the Gedmatch K13 averages, not sure if there is a running list of kit #'s though

Sephardic_Jewish

East_Med 36.91
West_Med 19.83
North_Atlantic 15.63
West_Asian 13.04
Red_Sea 8.90
Baltic 1.81
NE African 1.12
Siberian 0.78
Sub-Saharan 0.65
South_Asian 0.61
East_Asian 0.38
Oceanian 0.33
Amerindian 0.00

passenger
08-05-2019, 08:03 PM
Here is the Gedmatch K13 averages, not sure if there is a running list of kit #'s though

Sephardic_Jewish

East_Med 36.91
West_Med 19.83
North_Atlantic 15.63
West_Asian 13.04
Red_Sea 8.90
Baltic 1.81
NE African 1.12
Siberian 0.78
Sub-Saharan 0.65
South_Asian 0.61
East_Asian 0.38
Oceanian 0.33
Amerindian 0.00

What/who is this based on?

digital_noise
08-05-2019, 08:19 PM
What/who is this based on?

The Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet

passenger
08-05-2019, 08:23 PM
The Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet

Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?

hartaisarlag
08-05-2019, 08:47 PM
Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?

Probably Eastern Sephardic—considering Eurogenes K13 also includes averages for Algerian Jews (Tunisian and Libyan Jews too, I think).

Much has recently been made about within-country variation among North African Sephardim. I'd love to see more details on *those* samples.

————

Another major issue, setting aside the North African Sephardic question: it's become clear recently that Eastern Sephardim don't have much Iberian ancestry, but have considerable Italian or Greco-Roman ancestry. The two possible explanations for this are that Jews in Spain were transplants from Italy or the Eastern Roman Empire who didn't mix much once they arrived in Iberia, or that Eastern Sephardim are considerably, if not primarily, descended from pre-Sephardic, Greek-speaking Jews.

Meanwhile, Iberian ancestry in North African Jews seems too lumpy to be helpful as a reference for this question. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.

digital_noise
08-05-2019, 09:13 PM
Fair enough. Do we have any idea what kind of samples were included in this, though? North African? Eastern Sephardic?

I don't unfortunately. I swear I have seen a list of Seph. gedmatch kit #'s floating around though. Maybe not here but at another anthro site. I'll look and see...

passenger
08-05-2019, 09:18 PM
Probably Eastern Sephardic—considering Eurogenes K13 also includes averages for Algerian Jews (Tunisian and Libyan Jews too, I think).

Much has recently been made about within-country variation among North African Sephardim. I'd love to see more details on *those* samples.

————

Another major issue, setting aside the North African Sephardic question: it's become clear recently that Eastern Sephardim don't have much Iberian ancestry, but have considerable Italian or Greco-Roman ancestry. The two possible explanations for this are that Jews in Spain were transplants from Italy or the Eastern Roman Empire who didn't mix much once they arrived in Iberia, or that Eastern Sephardim are considerably, if not primarily, descended from pre-Sephardic, Greek-speaking Jews.

Meanwhile, Iberian ancestry in North African Jews seems too lumpy to be helpful as a reference for this question. I hope I'm wrong about that, though.

I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0).

I've read about the supposed differences in levels of Iberian ancestry among Eastern and North African Sephardim, and am really not sure what to make of that. Even though the numbers of Iberian Jewish exiles to the Ottoman Empire are notoriously unreliable, I think its safe to say they numbered at least in the tens of thousands, if not quite the couple hundred thousand that some affirm. Perhaps there was a higher degree of mixing with Italkim and Romaniotes, and eventually some Ashkenazim, but I would still think that the bulk of Eastern Sephardic ancestry would ultimately come from Iberian exiles, some of whom fled first to Italy or North Africa. The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.

Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I'm 1/8 Turkish Sephardic on paper, though I get around 18-20% Sephardic-like (Mediterranean basin) admixture percentages from the tests I've done. MyHeritage gives me 9.9% North African (somewhat of a fluke, I think), 5.3% Iberian and 2.2% Italian. FamilyTree gives me 11% Sephardic (which I believe is based on Eastern pops), 4% Italian/Greek, 3% North African and 2% West Middle East (though that could also come from my Ashkenazi). When I look at my Eastern Sephardic DNA cousins on MyHeritage, it's true that most of them have quite low Iberian scores though.

hartaisarlag
08-05-2019, 09:51 PM
I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0).

Maybe I have no good reason for assuming that "Sephardic Jews" in that sample = Greek, Turkish, and Bulgarian, but that was the impression I was carrying—perhaps because of just how similar they are to Ashkenazim.


The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.

That's what the people at The Apricity seem to favor. And until recently, I had no idea just how late some of the outflows (and returns, by Jews who tasted exile and decided they'd rather convert and have a shot at integrating back into their old communities) were. After a few generations as anusim, the odds of picking up some Spanish or Portuguese ancestry would be high.

The fact that 23andMe is returning specific Spanish (and Italian!) regional matches for North African Jews, meanwhile, could be interpreted to suggest gene flow in either direction, from Jews to non-Jews or vice versa.

passenger
08-05-2019, 10:06 PM
I don't unfortunately. I swear I have seen a list of Seph. gedmatch kit #'s floating around though. Maybe not here but at another anthro site. I'll look and see...

That would be great!

StillWater
08-05-2019, 11:25 PM
I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0).

I've read about the supposed differences in levels of Iberian ancestry among Eastern and North African Sephardim, and am really not sure what to make of that. Even though the numbers of Iberian Jewish exiles to the Ottoman Empire are notoriously unreliable, I think its safe to say they numbered at least in the tens of thousands, if not quite the couple hundred thousand that are some affirm. Perhaps there was a higher degree of mixing with Italkim and Romaniotes, and eventually some Ashkenazim, but I would still think that the bulk of Eastern Sephardic ancestry would ultimately come from Iberian exiles, some of whom fled first to Italy or North Africa. The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.

Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I'm 1/8 Turkish Sephardic on paper, though I get around 18-20% Sephardic-like (Mediterranean basin) admixture percentages from the tests I've done. MyHeritage gives me 9.9% North African (somewhat of a fluke, I think), 5.3% Iberian and 2.2% Italian. FamilyTree gives me 11% Sephardic (which I believe is based on Eastern pops), 4% Italian/Greek, 3% North African and 2% West Middle East (though that could also come from my Ashkenazi). When I look at my Eastern Sephardic DNA cousins on MyHeritage, it's true that most of them have quite low Iberian scores though.

Most of my family gets Italian on MyHeritage, whereas my grandma gets Iberian. I also get North African and West Middle East on FTDNA. Do you get any Asia Minor on FTDNA?

StillWater
08-05-2019, 11:32 PM
Maybe I have no good reason for assuming that "Sephardic Jews" in that sample = Greek, Turkish, and Bulgarian, but that was the impression I was carrying—perhaps because of just how similar they are to Ashkenazim.



That's what the people at The Apricity seem to favor. And until recently, I had no idea just how late some of the outflows (and returns, by Jews who tasted exile and decided they'd rather convert and have a shot at integrating back into their old communities) were. After a few generations as anusim, the odds of picking up some Spanish or Portuguese ancestry would be high.

The fact that 23andMe is returning specific Spanish (and Italian!) regional matches for North African Jews, meanwhile, could be interpreted to suggest gene flow in either direction, from Jews to non-Jews or vice versa.

I am skeptical of anything I read on The Apricity. Also, gentile North Africans get Spanish scores. I doubt Eastern Sephardim are of mostly Romaniote/Turkish Mizrachi ancestry because I haven't heard of any such family tracing it and they speak Ladino more than North African Jews. Their culture seems to be entirely Sephardic. Some autosomal results do suggest they have some pre-Sephardic ancestry. For example, MyHeritage tends to assign them large Mizrachi %'s, but MyHeritage's Sephardic reference is North African.

hartaisarlag
08-05-2019, 11:43 PM
I am skeptical of anything I read on The Apricity. Also, gentile North Africans get Spanish scores. I doubt Eastern Sephardim are of mostly Romaniote/Turkish Mizrachi ancestry because I haven't heard of any such family tracing it and they speak Ladino more than North African Jews. Their culture seems to be entirely Sephardic. Some autosomal results do suggest they have some pre-Sephardic ancestry. For example, MyHeritage tends to assign them large Mizrachi %'s, but MyHeritage's Sephardic reference is North African.

The recent threads on North African Jews are about as sane as anything I find here. I don't like The Apricity much as a forum generally (they give quarter to some bad shit), but I won't let that affect my judgments.

Can you supply me any examples of gentile North Africans getting Spanish scores since the new 23andMe update? It seems to have been very effective at accurately separating North African, Middle Eastern, and Euro-Mediterranean components from each other. In any event, it would not be surprising if some coastal North African Muslims had Andalusian ancestry—plenty of Muslims with deep roots in Iberia made the same journey as the Jews.

jonahst
08-05-2019, 11:58 PM
I don't see anything more specific than "Sephardic Jews" on that spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCZldTIfd-EPjDlpQiFNcHwOtZus9Qdll3pB48zdQG0/edit#gid=0).

I've read about the supposed differences in levels of Iberian ancestry among Eastern and North African Sephardim, and am really not sure what to make of that. Even though the numbers of Iberian Jewish exiles to the Ottoman Empire are notoriously unreliable, I think its safe to say they numbered at least in the tens of thousands, if not quite the couple hundred thousand that are some affirm. Perhaps there was a higher degree of mixing with Italkim and Romaniotes, and eventually some Ashkenazim, but I would still think that the bulk of Eastern Sephardic ancestry would ultimately come from Iberian exiles, some of whom fled first to Italy or North Africa. The only thing I can think of that might make North African Sephardim "more Iberian" might be a somewhat higher degree of incorporation of later waves of bnei anusim, some of whom might have been of mixed heritage. In that case, the question would be how genetically similar any of the pre-1492 Iberian Jews were to the surrounding non-Jewish population, and how much of a difference intermarriage among the anusim may have made in terms of the admixture of later refugees.

Anecdotally, for what it's worth, I'm 1/8 Turkish Sephardic on paper, though I get around 18-20% Sephardic-like (Mediterranean basin) admixture percentages from the tests I've done. MyHeritage gives me 9.9% North African (somewhat of a fluke, I think), 5.3% Iberian and 2.2% Italian. FamilyTree gives me 11% Sephardic (which I believe is based on Eastern pops), 4% Italian/Greek, 3% North African and 2% West Middle East (though that could also come from my Ashkenazi). When I look at my Eastern Sephardic DNA cousins on MyHeritage, it's true that most of them have quite low Iberian scores though.

I might be wrong, but I believe the total number of Sephardim who left Spain was, at most, about 100,000 and the bulk ended up in Morocco. I think your point about high Iberian in Moroccan/Algerian Jews in part being due to Bnei Anusim is certainly plausible (and there seem to be historical events that support it), but I think the fact that Morocco had such a massive Jewish population before 1948 supports the narrative that most simply stayed in Morocco.

And I personally find it hard to believe that pre-1492 Sephardim lacked noticeable (say at least 10-15%) Iberian ancestry due to how integrated they were in Spanish society for centuries.

Eastern (especially Turkish) Sephardim seem to be genetically very similar to Romaniote. The low levels of Iberian and their similarity to non-Sephardi Jews from the region indicates that they're probably heavily descended from pre-Sephardi Jews.

StillWater
08-06-2019, 12:12 AM
The recent threads on North African Jews are about as sane as anything I find here. I don't like The Apricity much as a forum generally (they give quarter to some bad shit), but I won't let that affect my judgments.

Can you supply me any examples of gentile North Africans getting Spanish scores since the new 23andMe update? It seems to have been very effective at accurately separating North African, Middle Eastern, and Euro-Mediterranean components from each other. In any event, it would not be surprising if some coastal North African Muslims had Andalusian ancestry—plenty of Muslims with deep roots in Iberia made the same journey as the Jews.

https://i.redd.it/zmctw14rxw731.png

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/c8onp5/north_african_and_western_asian_beta_vs_original/

hartaisarlag
08-06-2019, 12:19 AM
https://i.redd.it/zmctw14rxw731.png

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/c8onp5/north_african_and_western_asian_beta_vs_original/

That's a pretty precipitous drop—from an implausible amount of Iberian ancestry to a plausible amount. Could be Andalusi.

I would also not be surprised if this person had a few drops of Sephardic ancestry. Broadly Arab, Egyptian, & Levantine + Southern European + trace Ashkenazi...

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-06-2019, 12:56 AM
That's a pretty precipitous drop—from an implausible amount of Iberian ancestry to a plausible amount. Could be Andalusi.

I would also not be surprised if this person had a few drops of Sephardic ancestry. Broadly Arab, Egyptian, & Levantine + Southern European + trace Ashkenazi...

Coastal northern Tunisia has clans and families that claim Andalusian heritage, and there are villages and towns that are identified as descendants of Andalusian refugees. Bizerte especially seems to have a higher concentration of Andalusian families and descendants.

passenger
08-06-2019, 12:59 AM
Most of my family gets Italian on MyHeritage, whereas my grandma gets Iberian. I also get North African and West Middle East on FTDNA. Do you get any Asia Minor on FTDNA?

Nope, no Asia Minor.

StillWater
08-06-2019, 01:12 AM
That's a pretty precipitous drop—from an implausible amount of Iberian ancestry to a plausible amount. Could be Andalusi.

I would also not be surprised if this person had a few drops of Sephardic ancestry. Broadly Arab, Egyptian, & Levantine + Southern European + trace Ashkenazi...

I agree, but I haven't seen Jews score higher Spanish than that.

hartaisarlag
08-06-2019, 01:30 AM
I agree, but I haven't seen Jews score higher Spanish than that.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?295754-Sephardic-Jew-23andme-BETA

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281227-23andme-results-of-North-West-African-Jews-(Haplogroups-Autosomal)

StillWater
08-06-2019, 01:48 AM
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?295754-Sephardic-Jew-23andme-BETA

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281227-23andme-results-of-North-West-African-Jews-(Haplogroups-Autosomal)

I forgot about the first one. He's a counter example, granted. The second link is pre-Beta.

passenger
08-06-2019, 02:22 AM
I might be wrong, but I believe the total number of Sephardim who left Spain was, at most, about 100,000 and the bulk ended up in Morocco. I think your point about high Iberian in Moroccan/Algerian Jews in part being due to Bnei Anusim is certainly plausible (and there seem to be historical events that support it), but I think the fact that Morocco had such a massive Jewish population before 1948 supports the narrative that most simply stayed in Morocco.

And I personally find it hard to believe that pre-1492 Sephardim lacked noticeable (say at least 10-15%) Iberian ancestry due to how integrated they were in Spanish society for centuries.

Eastern (especially Turkish) Sephardim seem to be genetically very similar to Romaniote. The low levels of Iberian and their similarity to non-Sephardi Jews from the region indicates that they're probably heavily descended from pre-Sephardi Jews.

The numbers are really variable, and it depends what period in time we're talking about. If we're talking about the years immediately following 1492, reports from contemporary witnesses tend to greatly inflate the numbers, whereas official statistics are unable to account for actual numbers due to the large amount of clandestine migration that took place. To use an example, in the case of migration to Portugal, which was obviously one of them main routes out of Spain, reports from the time talk of 150,000 Spanish Jews moving west, whereas conservative estimates based on head taxes account for 35,000. The actual number may have been around 60,000, but there's no way to really keep track, since Jews at that time constantly moved back and forth between the Iberian kingdoms, and from there onward to Morocco, Italy, the Ottoman Empire, or, to a lesser extent, north into France. Probably at least as many Jews went directly south and east, rather than through Portugal. I wouldn't say that the bulk ended up in Morocco, since the North African states not under Ottoman control were often quite hostile to Jews, and, although many ended up there, a good number turned back for Iberia or continued on to Italy or the Eastern Mediterranean.

As for the Eastern Sephardim, using Istanbul as a case study, we see according to Minna Rozen's research, that only about 7,000-8,000 Iberian Jews had entered the Ottoman Empire by 1497, the community grew very rapidly through the 16th century, swelled by newcomers from Iberia and the rest of the Mediterranean. For instance, Istanbul received a large wave of immigration of conversos from Portugal after the Inquisition arrived there in 1536. Despite whatever intermarriage, Jewish communities in Istanbul tended to remain fairly separate, so it's possible to account for the numbers in each community. The first figure available for a specifically Sephardic community (including Jews coming from Italy and Southern France, many of whom had been Iberian exiles) counts 30,350 Sephardim in 1535, vs. 10,000 Romaniote Jews in that same year, however the number of Sephardim then drops (possibly indicating out migration to other parts of the empire), and the proportion of Sephardim and Romaniotes in the city seems to have remained fairly balanced over the next century, though Rozen indicates that by the end of the 17th century it was difficult to tell who was actually Iberian and who was Romaniote based solely on their affiliation with different synagogues, and it seems that the long-term trend was towards an increasing absorption of Romaniotes into a broader Sephardic culture. I'm not sure how this compares to other major Jewish settlements in the Ottoman Empire, but I would guess that in many cases there might have been a greater majority of Iberian Jews, given that so many Romaniotes converged on Istanbul following the Ottoman conquest. Of course in other parts of the empire you have to account for encounters with other Jewish communities, like Ashkenazim in the northern Balkans, who were a much smaller minority in Istanbul at the time.

So there was certainly no lack of Iberian Jews in the Ottoman Empire, though Romaniote ancestry is probably a big factor in Greece and Turkey at least.

As for Iberian ancestry in pre-1492 Sephardim, I really don't know. Recent Christian prohibition of intermarriage had existed for a century or two at that point, depending on the part of the peninsula, and there had been many earlier prohibitions going back to the Visigoths, not to mention the restrictions that Jewish communities placed on themselves. I have no doubt that there was some intermarriage, but so much is shrouded in mystery, particularly regarding the genesis of the Jewish community in late Roman through Islamic times.

jonahst
08-06-2019, 03:59 AM
The numbers are really variable, and it depends what period in time we're talking about. If we're talking about the years immediately following 1492, reports from contemporary witnesses tend to greatly inflate the numbers, whereas official statistics are unable to account for actual numbers due to the large amount of clandestine migration that took place. To use an example, in the case of migration to Portugal, which was obviously one of them main routes out of Spain, reports from the time talk of 150,000 Spanish Jews moving west, whereas conservative estimates based on head taxes account for 35,000. The actual number may have been around 60,000, but there's no way to really keep track, since Jews at that time constantly moved back and forth between the Iberian kingdoms, and from there onward to Morocco, Italy, the Ottoman Empire, or, to a lesser extent, north into France. Probably at least as many Jews went directly south and east, rather than through Portugal. I wouldn't say that the bulk ended up in Morocco, since the North African states not under Ottoman control were often quite hostile to Jews, and, although many ended up there, a good number turned back for Iberia or continued on to Italy or the Eastern Mediterranean.

As for the Eastern Sephardim, using Istanbul as a case study, we see according to Minna Rozen's research, that only about 7,000-8,000 Iberian Jews had entered the Ottoman Empire by 1497, the community grew very rapidly through the 16th century, swelled by newcomers from Iberia and the rest of the Mediterranean. For instance, Istanbul received a large wave of immigration of conversos from Portugal after the Inquisition arrived there in 1536. Despite whatever intermarriage, Jewish communities in Istanbul tended to remain fairly separate, so it's possible to account for the numbers in each community. The first figure available for a specifically Sephardic community (including Jews coming from Italy and Southern France, many of whom had been Iberian exiles) counts 30,350 Sephardim in 1535, vs. 10,000 Romaniote Jews in that same year, however the number of Sephardim then drops (possibly indicating out migration to other parts of the empire), and the proportion of Sephardim and Romaniotes in the city seems to have remained fairly balanced over the next century, though Rozen indicates that by the end of the 17th century it was difficult to tell who was actually Iberian and who was Romaniote based solely on their affiliation with different synagogues, and it seems that the long-term trend was towards an increasing absorption of Romaniotes into a broader Sephardic culture. I'm not sure how this compares to other major Jewish settlements in the Ottoman Empire, but I would guess that in many cases there might have been a greater majority of Iberian Jews, given that so many Romaniotes converged on Istanbul following the Ottoman conquest. Of course in other parts of the empire you have to account for encounters with other Jewish communities, like Ashkenazim in the northern Balkans, who were a much smaller minority in Istanbul at the time.

So there was certainly no lack of Iberian Jews in the Ottoman Empire, though Romaniote ancestry is probably a big factor in Greece and Turkey at least.

As for Iberian ancestry in pre-1492 Sephardim, I really don't know. Recent Christian prohibition of intermarriage had existed for a century or two at that point, depending on the part of the peninsula, and there had been many earlier prohibitions going back to the Visigoths, not to mention the restrictions that Jewish communities placed on themselves. I have no doubt that there was some intermarriage, but so much is shrouded in mystery, particularly regarding the genesis of the Jewish community in late Roman through Islamic times.

Fascinating, thank you for the history lesson! You obviously know much, much more about this than me. My primary reasons for thinking that the bulk ended up in Morocco still stand though: enormous Jewish population by 1948 (largest in the Muslim world), proximity to Spain, and high Iberian ancestry in modern Moroccan and Algerian Jews.

So I wonder if another factor could be at play: the location of different Sephardi Jewish communities within Iberia. You can tell me if this sounds plausible, but maybe Jews living in the south under Muslim rule for longer were more likely to mix with neighboring Iberians, and these are the Jews that mostly went to Morocco after 1492. Meanwhile, those that lived farther north and east, living under harsher Christian law for longer periods, mixed less with Iberians and these were more likely to later travel east to Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc.

What do you think?

passenger
08-06-2019, 04:58 AM
Fascinating, thank you for the history lesson! You obviously know much, much more about this than me. My primary reasons for thinking that the bulk ended up in Morocco still stand though: enormous Jewish population by 1948 (largest in the Muslim world), proximity to Spain, and high Iberian ancestry in modern Moroccan and Algerian Jews.

So I wonder if another factor could be at play: the location of different Sephardi Jewish communities within Iberia. You can tell me if this sounds plausible, but maybe Jews living the south under Muslim rule for longer were more likely to mix with neighboring Iberians, and these are the Jews that mostly went to Morocco after 1492. Meanwhile, those that lived farther north and east, living under harsher Christian law for longer periods, mixed less with Iberians and these were more likely to later travel east to Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc.

What do you think?

I've devoted a lot of time to studying aspects of Sephardic history over the last couple years, but I'm still far from an expert.

I'm not sure how plausible that hypothesis is. First of all, while there may have been an initial preference in escape routes out of the peninsula based on geographic proximity, over time I think there was so much shuffling of Jews within the peninsula and then within the diaspora that I'm not sure how much different regional Iberian Jewish admixtures, if they existed, would be reflected in different parts of the diaspora. For example, it was logically more likely for Jews living in Mediterranean port cities to travel south and east over water, but they would soon be joined by Jews who had traveled overland to Portugal, only to leave from there after a few years or a few decades.

Plus I'm not at all sure there were significant genetic differences in Jews from different Iberian regions. I have little doubt that Islamic rule for the most part (although there were many, many different Muslim states in Iberia) allowed for a lot more, let's call it, "genetic exchanging" between faith communities, so that might have made some difference, but there was a lot of movement of Jews around the peninsula, even more-so from the late 14th century (by which point most of the peninsula was under Christian rule) when increased persecution compelled Jews to move from kingdom to kingdom.

I still think that if there is noticeably higher Iberian admixture in some North African Jews it's more likely due to much later migration of mixed-heritage conversos and perhaps because of intermarriage with pre-existing local Jewish (and perhaps even non-Jewish) populations which themselves have a degree of overlap with Iberian populations. That's just a somewhat educated guess though. I'd be interested to know what others think and to see further studies.

Seabass
08-06-2019, 09:55 AM
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?295754-Sephardic-Jew-23andme-BETA

Are there any other Sephardic (Eastern & North African) BETA results?

Attached is my Sephardic parent 1/2 Istanbul, 1/2 Izmir. Ofcourse they were a bit surprised by how low the Spanish was!

3220732208

passenger
08-06-2019, 03:27 PM
Are there any other Sephardic (Eastern & North African) BETA results?

Attached is my Sephardic parent 1/2 Istanbul, 1/2 Izmir. Ofcourse they were a bit surprised by how low the Spanish was!

3220732208

Do you have results from any other companies for that parent?

talombo
08-06-2019, 04:25 PM
I also got low Spanish (half east Sephardic, half Moroccan jew)

32221

hartaisarlag
08-06-2019, 04:38 PM
It's also been noted that Eastern Sephardim score more Ashkenazi on 23andMe than North African Sephardim. Could either be an artifact of proximity/near-identical ultimate origins, or an actual signature of early Balkan Ashkenazim.

talombo
08-06-2019, 04:58 PM
It's also been noted that Eastern Sephardim score more Ashkenazi on 23andMe than North African Sephardim. Could either be an artifact of proximity/near-identical ultimate origins, or an actual signature of early Balkan Ashkenazim.

I think it's simply because of Ashkenazi jews who moved into the ottoman empire and mixed with the local jews,
there's a reason why many Sephardim have the surename "Ashkenazi".

passenger
08-06-2019, 05:19 PM
I think it's simply because of Ashkenazi jews who moved into the ottoman empire and mixed with the local jews,
there's a reason why many Sephardim have the surename "Ashkenazi".

Possibly. There are certainly records of small Ashkenazi communities in the Ottoman Empire dating back to even before the Iberian expulsion. I'm sure that's made some impact, but it's curious that in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when Ashkenazi migration to the Ottoman Empire really took off, there were still many tensions between the communities, and there were instances of Sephardim barely recognizing Ashkenazim as fellow Jews because they didn't speak "Spanish".

I think the factor of genetic overlap dating back to common ancient roots of Western Jews in the Easter Med probably accounts for a bigger chunk of what reads as Ashkenazi on certain sites, particularly ones like 23andMe that don't have a specific Sephardic category.

For those with Sephardic roots who have taken multiple tests, is the Ashkenazi percentage higher in tests without a Sephardic category?

talombo
08-06-2019, 05:39 PM
For those with Sephardic roots who have taken multiple tests, is the Ashkenazi percentage higher in tests without a Sephardic category?

I scored 13.1% Ashkenazi in MyHeritage,
<2% in FTDNA
and 9% in AncestryDNA.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:06 AM
I think it's simply because of Ashkenazi jews who moved into the ottoman empire and mixed with the local jews,
there's a reason why many Sephardim have the surename "Ashkenazi".

I once heard a Syrian Jew say that he got the surname Ashkenazi because his family did business in Europe and not because of an Ashkenazi ancestor.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:09 AM
Possibly. There are certainly records of small Ashkenazi communities in the Ottoman Empire dating back to even before the Iberian expulsion. I'm sure that's made some impact, but it's curious that in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when Ashkenazi migration to the Ottoman Empire really took off, there were still many tensions between the communities, and there were instances of Sephardim barely recognizing Ashkenazim as fellow Jews because they didn't speak "Spanish".

I think the factor of genetic overlap dating back to common ancient roots of Western Jews in the Easter Med probably accounts for a bigger chunk of what reads as Ashkenazi on certain sites, particularly ones like 23andMe that don't have a specific Sephardic category.

For those with Sephardic roots who have taken multiple tests, is the Ashkenazi percentage higher in tests without a Sephardic category?

I agree. I don't remember Eastern Sephardim show up with trace ancestry typical of Ashkenazim, as was the case on older 23andMe results (East European etc). However, I did come accross a paper one time which spoke pre-Sephardic Jews in Turkey converting foreign women (Slavic etc), which may account for some of the overlap.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 07:17 AM
I've devoted a lot of time to studying aspects of Sephardic history over the last couple years, but I'm still far from an expert.

I'm not sure how plausible that hypothesis is. First of all, while there may have been an initial preference in escape routes out of the peninsula based on geographic proximity, over time I think there was so much shuffling of Jews within the peninsula and then within the diaspora that I'm not sure how much different regional Iberian Jewish admixtures, if they existed, would be reflected in different parts of the diaspora. For example, it was logically more likely for Jews living in Mediterranean port cities to travel south and east over water, but they would soon be joined by Jews who had traveled overland to Portugal, only to leave from there after a few years or a few decades.

Plus I'm not at all sure there were significant genetic differences in Jews from different Iberian regions. I have little doubt that Islamic rule for the most part (although there were many, many different Muslim states in Iberia) allowed for a lot more, let's call it, "genetic exchanging" between faith communities, so that might have made some difference, but there was a lot of movement of Jews around the peninsula, even more-so from the late 14th century (by which point most of the peninsula was under Christian rule) when increased persecution compelled Jews to move from kingdom to kingdom.

I still think that if there is noticeably higher Iberian admixture in some North African Jews it's more likely due to much later migration of mixed-heritage conversos and perhaps because of intermarriage with pre-existing local Jewish (and perhaps even non-Jewish) populations which themselves have a degree of overlap with Iberian populations. That's just a somewhat educated guess though. I'd be interested to know what others think and to see further studies.

1. Many conversos did arrive to Morocco. Some never really assimilated until the 20th century.
My grandfather told me that he remembered as a child community of crypto Jews in the Atlas. They tried to pray at the synagogue but the local Jewish leaders in the Atlas wouldn’t let them. Long story short they ended up opening their own small improvised synagogue but the only prayed at night (they were still in fear for some reason)
2. In the New BETA Moroccans (non Jews) don’t really get any European anymore so I don’t think it’s berber misreading as Iberian.
3. Moroccan jewish genetics is very diverse by the region. Maybe the least homogenous Jewish group. I can post Moroccan Jewish results from different regions (on the BETA) so you would understand how strong it is.

4. I don’t know how many Turkish Jews are Iberian subclade of R1b but for Moroccan Jews it’s around 20% based on 100 people (with different last names) sample I did. I definitely think the actual Iberian Ancestry in Moroccan jews is higher than among other Sephardim.

5. Many of the Jews that went to the ottoman empire are originally from Southern Italy (were expelled under crown of Aragon but not Spanish). Still Moroccan Jews get a lot of Italian blood (not less than the average East Sephardic) and almost always get regions (regions I saw for Moroccan Jews are mainly from the South- Sicily to Lazio, few have more Northern regions like Lombardy, Venezia and ect) so I’m not sure how to explain it.

5. Ashkenazi admixture in East Sephardim- true ancestry. There were Ashkenazim in Turkey and the Balkans prior to the arrive of Sephardim. The ashkenazi community eventually assimilated to the Sephardi one, but genetically it’s there. East Sephardim still have many Jewish matches from Eastern Europe. Moroccan Jews- rarely get full Ashkenazi matches.

6. Many Jews from Northernmost Morocco (Spanish speaking communities) actually getting Spanish regions in addition to high percentage. Not sure how to count on it but many have northern regions- Galicia, Basque, Aragon, Catalonia, Castile-Leon and ect. Ocourse there is also Andalusia and Castile-la mancha but just saying I still think Moroccan jews are descendants from Jews from the northern parts of Spain too.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 07:35 AM
Are there any other Sephardic (Eastern & North African) BETA results?

Attached is my Sephardic parent 1/2 Istanbul, 1/2 Izmir. Ofcourse they were a bit surprised by how low the Spanish was!

3220732208

I have some North African Sephardics beta (around 10 or so)
Do you want me to post them?

talombo
08-07-2019, 08:15 AM
5. Ashkenazi admixture in East Sephardim- true ancestry. There were Ashkenazim in Turkey and the Balkans prior to the arrive of Sephardim. The ashkenazi community eventually assimilated to the Sephardi one, but genetically it’s there. East Sephardim still have many Jewish matches from Eastern Europe. Moroccan Jews- rarely get full Ashkenazi matches.


True, I have hundreds of matches in 23andme that look like this:

32231

Bleach
08-07-2019, 09:08 AM
5. Many of the Jews that went to the ottoman empire are originally from Southern Italy (were expelled under crown of Aragon but not Spanish). Still Moroccan Jews get a lot of Italian blood (not less than the average East Sephardic) and almost always get regions (regions I saw for Moroccan Jews are mainly from the South- Sicily to Lazio, few have more Northern regions like Lombardy, Venezia and ect) so I’m not sure how to explain it.




The 23andme Italian cluster displayed for Moroccan Jews (as all Western Jews) is most likely related to the imperial Roman era with Greco Romans converts in the East Med bassin and Southern Italy.
That ancient East Med admixture is also translated into the new beta cluster " Anatolian" and "Cypriot" shared as well by Morcocan Jews but to a less extent.
Very noticeable is the appearance of the Iranian/ Mesopotamian cluster (2,5% in averaged) for all North African Jews that seems to confirm Erick ' intuition of Mizrahi Jewish migrations over the geonim period.

As to the regional indications within the italian cluster ( Siciliy , Calabria,etc..)
It could be from expelled Spanish Jews who had ended up in Southern Italy and finally converted in these lands

Bleach
08-07-2019, 09:13 AM
I have some North African Sephardics beta (around 10 or so)
Do you want me to post them?

Sure!
I am very interested

DR2001
08-07-2019, 09:56 AM
I have some more and I'll post them gradually during the next few days:

1. My grandmother (Half Oran, Algeria and half Er-rich, Morocco)

https://i.ibb.co/XLKzxyp/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-31-13-PM.png


2. Tlemcen (Algeria)

https://i.ibb.co/Mk3kTfb/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-31-01-PM.png

3. Morocco (quart Fez, Quart Casablanca quart Beni-Mellal and quart Marrakesh)

https://i.ibb.co/HCfFFWK/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-32-53-PM.png

4. Morocco

https://i.ibb.co/FwPSxDm/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-36-51-PM.png

5. Morocco

https://i.ibb.co/8jdVkg4/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-37-34-PM.png

6. Morocco (the other two Italian regions are Calabria and Lombardy)

https://i.ibb.co/GxYgWn0/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-38-19-PM.png

7. Morocco (Half Tangier, Quart Agadir quart Fes)

https://i.ibb.co/Zgg8GMz/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-42-36-PM.png

8. half Morocco (Marrakesh) half Tunisia (Djerba)

https://i.ibb.co/xXTBv27/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-43-43-PM.png

9. Morocco (Casablanca)

https://i.ibb.co/1709Mky/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-45-26-PM.png

10. Half Tunisia (Quart Sfax quart Tunis) half Morocco (quart Casablanca quart Fes)

https://i.ibb.co/9NR966D/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-48-56-PM.png

11. Morocco (Fes)

https://i.ibb.co/yhn6qHV/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-49-08-PM.png

12. Morocco

https://i.ibb.co/2sShw0w/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-49-46-PM.png

13. Morocco (Meknes)

https://i.ibb.co/fHtTkzz/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-54-46-PM.png

14. Morocco (Half Rabat half Casablanca)

https://i.ibb.co/JmH27j5/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-12-52-55-PM.png

Seabass
08-07-2019, 11:11 AM
On the topic of why do Eastern Sephardic Jews score so much Ashkenazi? if I move the confidence level for segment ancestral assignment from 50% (default setting) to 90% (most conservative setting) my mum's Ashkenazi percentage goes from 18.8 to 11.8. Can anyone here tell me what Ashkenazi Jews get at the 90% (conservative setting) I think this method might hint at what could be distant Ashkenazi ancestry absorbed. I think Jews especially from Istanbul could have well absorbed a small amount of distant Ashkenazi ancestry.


Do you have results from any other companies for that parent?

No just 23andme for now.


I also got low Spanish (half east Sephardic, half Moroccan jew)


Seeing a comprehensive 10+ BETA results of North African Jews in this thread now, I'd say it would appear you Eastern Sephardic parent like mine probably scores considerable 'Ashkenazi' and very little 'Spanish and Portuguese' too. It also looks as though they would score maybe 1-2% North African like my parent too. What we are seeing is a bit crazy! It doesn't align with nMonte G25 models of Eastern Sephardic Jews having nearly 10% North African admixture, whereas the 15-25% we are seeing in North African Jews here does line up with nMonte models in Erick's thread.


I agree. I don't remember Eastern Sephardim show up with trace ancestry typical of Ashkenazim, as was the case on older 23andMe results (East European etc). However, I did come accross a paper one time which spoke pre-Sephardic Jews in Turkey converting foreign women (Slavic etc), which may account for some of the overlap.

There are a coupe sources which suggest there are cases Sephardic slave owners had children with Eastern European slaves. How credible these sources are I'm not sure and I would say this obviously had either almost nil to nil impact on the autosomal results of Eastern Sephardic Jews. Who have relatively far low levels of EHG compared to many Southern Europeans.


I have some more and I'll post them gradually during the next few days:

Appreciate that you shared all these.

talombo
08-07-2019, 11:35 AM
On the topic of why do Eastern Sephardic Jews score so much Ashkenazi? if I move the confidence level for segment ancestral assignment from 50% (default setting) to 90% (most conservative setting) my mum's Ashkenazi percentage goes from 18.8 to 11.8. Can anyone here tell me what Ashkenazi Jews get at the 90% (conservative setting) I think this method might hint at what could be distant Ashkenazi ancestry absorbed. I think Jews especially from Istanbul could have well absorbed a small amount of distant Ashkenazi ancestry.


At 50% I score 7.9% Ashkenazi.

Bleach
08-07-2019, 11:58 AM
Seeing a comprehensive 10+ BETA results of North African Jews in this thread now, I'd say it would appear you Eastern Sephardic parent like mine probably scores considerable 'Ashkenazi' and very little 'Spanish and Portuguese' too. It also looks as though they would score maybe 1-2% North African like my parent too. What we are seeing is a bit crazy! It doesn't align with nMonte G25 models of Eastern Sephardic Jews having nearly 10% North African admixture, whereas the 15-25% we are seeing in North African Jews here does line up with nMonte models in Erick's thread.

.

I could be totally wrong but It seems to me that the North African admixture among North African Jews is much more diverse than in the Eastern Sephardim for whom the maghrebian source is very drifted (as for Ahskenazim)so few detectable on an algorithm such as 23andme which is based on modern maghrebian dna segments, compared to a tool as Global 25 that set up unsupervised clusters/dimensions based on the allelic frequencies of all ancient and modern populations.
So on 23andme, an eastern sephardi can only have 1,5% of North African but it will get a very large "broadly North African and West Asian" ancestry .
The "broadly" is unfortunately the main issue with the Jews in 23andme

Seabass
08-07-2019, 01:22 PM
I could be totally wrong but It seems to me that the North African admixture among North African Jews is much more diverse than in the Eastern Sephardim for whom the maghrebian source is very drifted (as for Ahskenazim)so few detectable on an algorithm such as 23andme which is based on modern maghrebian dna segments, compared to a tool as Global 25 that set up unsupervised clusters/dimensions based on the allelic frequencies of all ancient and modern populations.
So on 23andme, an eastern sephardi can only have 1,5% of North African but it will get a very large "broadly North African and West Asian" ancestry .
The "broadly" is unfortunately the main issue with the Jews in 23andme

That's a good point, I mistakenly thought this was broadly South and North West Asian and excluded North Africa.

Western Jews are getting a lot of 'broadly' in general and it seems maybe Eastern Sephardim get ascribed it the most. My mum is 51.7% 'broadly' things and 3.7% and 18.8% Ashkenazi. :\ That's a pretty ambiguously dull result but at least I still feel 23andme is stepping towards the right direction with this.

Are there any BETA results for full Tunisian and Libyan Jews?

DR2001
08-07-2019, 02:17 PM
I could be totally wrong but It seems to me that the North African admixture among North African Jews is much more diverse than in the Eastern Sephardim for whom the maghrebian source is very drifted (as for Ahskenazim)so few detectable on an algorithm such as 23andme which is based on modern maghrebian dna segments, compared to a tool as Global 25 that set up unsupervised clusters/dimensions based on the allelic frequencies of all ancient and modern populations.
So on 23andme, an eastern sephardi can only have 1,5% of North African but it will get a very large "broadly North African and West Asian" ancestry .
The "broadly" is unfortunately the main issue with the Jews in 23andme

The broadly is so high (even among Moroccan Jews, more than 20% Broadly MENA) because it's a BETA. Berber admixture among Jews is atleast 1500 years old. Berber tribes converted to Judaism from their Pagan religion before the rise of Islam. When North Africa became Muslim the mixture stop. Jews with Berber YDNA almost always have Hebrew surnames because the converted Berbers adopted biblical/Jewish names like "Israeli" or "Ovadia" and ect.

In addition Moroccan Jews DO NOT match gentile Moroccans on 23andme or any other company. The admixture is way to ancient.
Unfortunately you claim about ancient vs Modern doesn't face reality. In addition if Eastern Sephardics were to have Berber ancestry, they proabbly have it from Moroccan Jews migrating to Spain during to golden age of Jews in Spain (and it basically overlapped the persecution of Jews in Morocco, same old story- die or convert; yes it happened few times in Morocco during the middle ages).

The berber admix is very ancient among both Sephardic and Moroccan Jews

In addition Berber ancestry is scattered because it depends about how much Sephardim settled in the specific location vs how many "Berber Jews" (pre sephardic Jews were already there, if you ask me in some places they were half Judeans half Berber, in some less and in some even almost fully Berber, depends of how many tribes converted and how many Judeans arrived to the specific place. There is a clear correlation between latitude and European admix in Moroccan Jews. Southern you go, less European you'll have (clearly seen in how people look as well but I won't get into this topic).
In Morocco they were Jews from Tangier to Guelmim. Do you really think they were all homogenous with their ancestry? That Sephardim chose to settle close to western Sahara (not talking that this distance is days of driving, let alone arriving in the 16th century).

In addition Moroccan Jews can have more than 25% Berber like that 38% guy (I'm probably similar to this, my SSA is higher than average for Jews and I plot my more south compared to my Grandmother (and she is 25% Berber in 23andme), and Again my other sides of the family are from more south in Morocco so it makes sense. I wasn't tested with 23 but will test myself with them in the following months)
I do not believe Sephardic have significant Berber ancestry because it would show in some level of SSA (like in my case) in gedmatch, I do believe it is possible that you guys are around 5% or so. We'll know better when we are out of BETA. The North African category is quite distinct, Moroccans score almost 100% of it and levantines and Iberian generally none so it's interesting.



That's a good point, I mistakenly thought this was broadly South and North West Asian and excluded North Africa.

Western Jews are getting a lot of 'broadly' in general and it seems maybe Eastern Sephardim get ascribed it the most. My mum is 51.7% 'broadly' things and 3.7% and 18.8% Ashkenazi. :\ That's a pretty ambiguously dull result but at least I still feel 23andme is stepping towards the right direction with this.

Are there any BETA results for full Tunisian and Libyan Jews?

Please also read my comment above.
Tunisian Jews are somewhat related to Moroccan Jews, we do occasionally match each other, and also because of late internal migrations in North Africa, there are Moroccan Jews with a lot of Tunisian Ancestry (Especially in Casablanca) but my grandmother isn't one of them and I don't have any Full Tunisian matches to give you.

Libyan Jews are completely different type of Jews, Moroccan and Algerian Jews would generally have 0 matches from Libya.
Talombo did send me one Libyan Jew and one Tunisian Jew on Beta and I'll post them here-

https://i.imgur.com/3jfU9xA.png - Libyan Jew


https://i.imgur.com/FhedPnc.jpg- Tunisian Jew


IMPORTANT- Libyans aren't fully Berber and Libya was never very Berber (their Arabic only has 60 words of berber origin). They are largely descendant of Egyptian like population that inhibited Libya in antiquity and they have recent Arab blood.
I saw few gentile Libyans on the BETA- they score only 40% North Africa, rest being Egyptian and Arabic.
problem is that Jews score Egyptian too on the BETA, and a lot of broadly for the category that includes Egyptian and levantines, so it's impossible to know what is judean and what is from mixing with local Libyans.

I'll post some More Moroccans BETA here, I have tons of them.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 03:08 PM
1. Half Moroccan half Libyan (Tripoli)-

https://i.ibb.co/MsKPZkb/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-5-20-40-PM.png

2. Morocco (Half Fes, Quart Meknes, Quart Sefrou)

https://i.ibb.co/fGcckKk/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-5-22-02-PM.png

3. 3/4 Moroccan 1/4 Egypt

https://i.ibb.co/47PD5sx/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-5-28-24-PM.png

4. Morocco (3/4 Tangiers, 1/4 Rabat)

https://i.ibb.co/56F8FQW/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-5-31-34-PM.png

The Spanish regions are:
1.Andalusia
2.Galicia
3.Castile-La Mancha
4.Catalonia
5.Valencian Community
6.Canary Islands
7.Basque country
8.Asturias
9.Castile and Leon
10.La Rioja


The Italians are:
1.Sicily
2.Calabria
3.Campania
4.Molise
5.Abruzzo
6.Lazio


5. Algerian (half El-oued half Aflou)

https://i.ibb.co/gD5vqFX/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-5-34-49-PM.png

DR2001
08-07-2019, 03:16 PM
Are there any other Sephardic (Eastern & North African) BETA results?

Attached is my Sephardic parent 1/2 Istanbul, 1/2 Izmir. Ofcourse they were a bit surprised by how low the Spanish was!

3220732208

Does your parent get matches from latin America? especially Puerto-rico and Mexico? My grandmother and I have more matches from latin America than from anywhere in the world (except for Morocco). I want to know whether East Sephardim too..

does you parent matches North African Sephardim?

Also can you post results of matches from Bulgaria and Yugoslavia? I really want to know if they mixed with Balkan Slavs.

asm
08-07-2019, 03:33 PM
2 Turkish Sephardic Jew kits:

Z737762
Z155123

Targum
08-07-2019, 03:45 PM
one match with second sample:Z155123
Largest segment = 7.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.6 cM (0.211 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.4

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

119414 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.036 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.220 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.028 cpu seconds.

jonahst
08-07-2019, 03:51 PM
So my dad's 23andMe results just got their beta update, and even though they're still basically the same (99.1 Ashkenazi), the update did add new trace ancestry from non-European regions that had been missing before. Now he gets 0.3 Broadly Northern West Asian and 0.1 Broadly West Asian and North African. And on DIY calculators and GEDmatch, my dad usually gets high North African.

At 90%, my dad's Ashkenazi drops to 96.3%, so a pretty minor change.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 03:53 PM
I match Z737762, my grandmother doesn't match them at all.


Largest segment = 9.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 9.2 cM (0.256 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.1

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

Bleach
08-07-2019, 04:09 PM
In addition Moroccan Jews DO NOT match gentile Moroccans on 23andme or any other company. The admixture is way to ancient.
Unfortunately you claim about ancient vs Modern doesn't face reality.

What claim ?Come again ?
I just talked about methodological approach between 23andme and Global 25



In addition if Eastern Sephardics were to have Berber ancestry, they proabbly have it from Moroccan Jews migrating to Spain during to golden age of Jews in Spain (and it basically overlapped the persecution of Jews in Morocco, same old story- die or convert; yes it happened few times in Morocco during the middle ages).
.
It's partially right.
We have been discussed about that many times before in the Aegean/Jewish thread
All the western Jews (Ashkenazi,Sephardi, North African,Italki,Romaniotes) share a common north african background (of course Magrebian Jews have much more)
This is likely related to to the ancient and significant HellenisticJewish community of Cyrene in Lybia that supplied many migrants to Anatolia after the Kitos War, this is historically well documented, they had their own synagogues in Tarsus for exemple.




In addition Berber ancestry is scattered because it depends about how much Sephardim settled in the specific location vs how many "Berber Jews" (pre sephardic Jews were already there, if you ask me in some places they were half Judeans half Berber, in some less and in some even almost fully Berber, depends of how many tribes converted and how many Judeans arrived to the specific place. .

I think it ‘ s a too simplistic approach and not backed by autsomal DNA anyway
It's not realistic to affirm that pure Judeans migrated from the Levant to straight settle in ancient Morocco without get admixtures before from native people as Egyptians, Greeks of Cyrenaica, Anatolian Greeks , Southern Italians Lybians,...
We kwow today that all Western Jews including Morrocan Jews are far from owing their ancestry to 50% Judean , we have around 20-25% at most




I do not believe Sephardic have significant Berber ancestry because it would show in some level of SSA (like in my case) in gedmatch, I do believe it is possible that you guys are around 5% or so. We'll know better when we are out of BETA. The North African category is quite distinct, Moroccans score almost 100% of it and levantines and Iberian generally none so it's interesting. .


Gedmatch eurogenes calculators are no longer relevant for modelizing Jews since the lauching of Global 25
Because Jewish communities ethnogenesis is not made up with modern populations but ancient ones for which some DNA profiles don't exist anymore today especially Aegean Greeks and Roman era Levantines
More over running ancient samples on a gedmatch calculator wil obviously come out skewed results as gedmatch ancestry clusters are based on modern populations
it's like reading a book upside down as would have said Agamemnon

Targum
08-07-2019, 04:18 PM
Thank you Bleach; your whole post is on point but I cannot emphasize enough the following quote:

"All the western Jews (Ashkenazi,Sephardi, North African,Italki,Romaniotes) share a common north african background (of course Magrebian Jews have much more)
This is likely related to to the ancient and significant HellenisticJewish community of Cyrene in Lybia that supplied many migrants to Anatolia after the Kitos War, this is historically well documented, they had their own synagogues in Tarsus for exemple."

Thus, 19th century Jews in, say, Belarus or Romania, all have this significant North Africa component, notwithstanding their particular family not having lived in North Africa for 1500 years!

DR2001
08-07-2019, 04:24 PM
What claim ?Come again ?
I just talked about methodological approach between 23andme and Global 25


It's partially right.
We have been discussed about that many times before in the Aegean/Jewish thread
All the western Jews (Ashkenazi,Sephardi, North African,Italki,Romaniotes) share a common north african background (of course Magrebian Jews have much more)
This is likely related to to the ancient and significant HellenisticJewish community of Cyrene in Lybia that supplied many migrants to Anatolia after the Kitos War, this is historically well documented, they had their own synagogues in Tarsus for exemple.




I think it ‘ s a too simplistic approach and not backed by autsomal DNA anyway
It's not realistic to affirm that pure Judeans migrated from the Levant to straight settle in ancient Morocco without get admixtures before from native people as Egyptians, Greeks of Cyrenaica, Anatolian Greeks , Southern Italians Lybians,...
We kwow today that all Western Jews including Morrocan Jews are far from owing their ancestry to 50% Judean , we have around 20-25% at most





Gedmatch eurogenes calculators are no longer relevant for modelizing Jews since the lauching of Global 25
Because Jewish communities ethnogenesis is not made up with modern populations but ancient ones for which some DNA profiles don't exist anymore today especially Aegean Greeks and Roman era Levantines
More over running ancient samples on a gedmatch calculator wil obviously come out skewed results as gedmatch ancestry clusters are based on modern populations
it's like reading a book upside down as would have said Agamemnon

I didn't claim the average Western Jew is 50% Judean, but can you please show me evidences that modern western Jews are "around 20-25% at most"
It's way different from what I heard. I think it's varies but 20-25% is way lower.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 04:26 PM
https://i.ibb.co/4TzXp65/Screen-Shot-2019-08-07-at-7-25-23-PM.png

Half Casablanca half Rabat

StillWater
08-07-2019, 04:33 PM
Mother and Z155123 :

Largest segment = 8.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 8.6 cM (0.241 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.7

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

Me and Z737762:

Largest segment = 7.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.5 cM (0.209 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

passenger
08-07-2019, 04:40 PM
1. Many conversos did arrive to Morocco. Some never really assimilated until the 20th century.
My grandfather told me that he remembered as a child community of crypto Jews in the Atlas. They tried to pray at the synagogue but the local Jewish leaders in the Atlas wouldn’t let them. Long story short they ended up opening their own small improvised synagogue but the only prayed at night (they were still in fear for some reason)
2. In the New BETA Moroccans (non Jews) don’t really get any European anymore so I don’t think it’s berber misreading as Iberian.
3. Moroccan jewish genetics is very diverse by the region. Maybe the least homogenous Jewish group. I can post Moroccan Jewish results from different regions (on the BETA) so you would understand how strong it is.

4. I don’t know how many Turkish Jews are Iberian subclade of R1b but for Moroccan Jews it’s around 20% based on 100 people (with different last names) sample I did. I definitely think the actual Iberian Ancestry in Moroccan jews is higher than among other Sephardim.

5. Many of the Jews that went to the ottoman empire are originally from Southern Italy (were expelled under crown of Aragon but not Spanish). Still Moroccan Jews get a lot of Italian blood (not less than the average East Sephardic) and almost always get regions (regions I saw for Moroccan Jews are mainly from the South- Sicily to Lazio, few have more Northern regions like Lombardy, Venezia and ect) so I’m not sure how to explain it.

5. Ashkenazi admixture in East Sephardim- true ancestry. There were Ashkenazim in Turkey and the Balkans prior to the arrive of Sephardim. The ashkenazi community eventually assimilated to the Sephardi one, but genetically it’s there. East Sephardim still have many Jewish matches from Eastern Europe. Moroccan Jews- rarely get full Ashkenazi matches.

6. Many Jews from Northernmost Morocco (Spanish speaking communities) actually getting Spanish regions in addition to high percentage. Not sure how to count on it but many have northern regions- Galicia, Basque, Aragon, Catalonia, Castile-Leon and ect. Ocourse there is also Andalusia and Castile-la mancha but just saying I still think Moroccan jews are descendants from Jews from the northern parts of Spain too.

Per points 1 and 5, I think the integration of conversos has to do with the date of arrival. In the Ottoman Empire, longer-established Jews generally became less receptive towards converso newcomers over time, although there were certainly important waves of immigration from Iberia (Portugal in particular) well into the sixteenth century. In North Africa I'm sure it also varies tremendously according to period and location, but the long-term presence of Western Sephardim (i.e. merchant families of largely Portuguese converso origin) in North African cities must count for something. Not that they weren't also present in the Eastern Med, but I think they were more entrenched in North Africa and connected to trade between Italy (Livorno or Venice), North Africa and the Atlantic world. The wealth possessed by some of these converso families probably lessened the impact of their marginalization from other North African Jews, but it's possible that more desperate, less connected bnei anusim remained on the fringes.

You're absolutely right that the Italian factor should be taken into account, but it's hard to measure historically, and genetically of course there's always confusion over the timing of apparently Italian admixture in Jewish groups. The problem with late 15th and 16th century Ottoman history is that it's hard to separate Italians from Iberians. The first synagogues in the "Iberian" community included congregations named after the apparent origin of their founders - Cordova, Aragon, Messina, Sicilia and Portugal. However, despite the presence of Italian names, these were Sephardic-rite synagogues, and the actual Italian-rite community formed a small minority of the population. It's most likely the case that many Italian Jews were incorporated into the Sephardic community early on, but it's also the case that many "Italian" Jews, especially over time, were at least partial descendants of Iberian Jews who had fled to Italy before moving on to Iberia. Surnames aren't always helpful either. My great-grandmother's mother was a Romano, which probably denotes Italian origins, but from when? There were many Romanos in pre-expulsion Iberia, indicating even more remote connections to Italy, and there were Romanos who picked up the name in the post-expulsion diaspora, but it could be that the family had only been in Italy for a generation or two before moving on.

hartaisarlag
08-07-2019, 05:14 PM
2 Turkish Sephardic Jew kits:

Z737762
Z155123

My mother and I match the first on 2 different segments, and my mother matches the second. All 3 of the segments are between 7 and 9 cM.

However, I’ve been cataloguing my Sephardi, Iberian, Italian, and Latin American matches for awhile.

There’ve been a small handful of Turkish Jews (plus a likely converso Muslim Turk with roots in Thessaloniki), and a small handful of Moroccan and Tunisian Jews. These have been dwarfed by the number of matches from Portugal, Spain, and all corners of Latin America, who are much less likely than Turkish Jews to be part-Ashkenazi.

Targum
08-07-2019, 05:16 PM
My mother and I match the first on 2 different segments, and my mother matches the second. All 3 of the segments are between 7 and 9 cM.

However, I’ve been cataloguing my Sephardi, Iberian, Italian, and Latin American matches for awhile.

There’ve been a small handful of Turkish Jews (plus a likely converso Muslim Turk with roots in Thessaloniki), and a small handful of Moroccan and Tunisian Jews. These have been dwarfed by the number of matches from Portugal, Spain, and all corners of Latin America, who are much less likely than Turkish Jews to be part-Ashkenazi.

Same here; surprising (to me) Mexico DR and PR matches

Bleach
08-07-2019, 05:17 PM
I didn't claim the average Western Jew is 50% Judean, but can you please show me evidences that modern western Jews are "around 20-25% at most"
It's way different from what I heard. I think it's varies but 20-25% is way lower.

https://i.imgur.com/iVxAkWd.png
32236

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Nobody is a scientist here, we are all amateurs, so I have no clear evidences strictly speaking.
On the other hand, we are all hobbyst and as such we use the best tool to date to model populations, It's the global 25.

Here is a straightforward model for Western Jews (I did'nt include Ashkenazim here because they have additional slavic and Western Euro admixture although they are part of the Western Jewry), on line with historical Jewish migrations
But of course I can be wrong

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Levant Roman LBN = Roman era levantines (Judeans)

EGY Hellenistic = Roman era ative Egyptians (Jewry of Alexandria)

Berber Tunisia = Native Norther African Roman era

IRAN Hasanlu IA + IRAN Hajji Firuz IA = Related to th Mesopotamian admiture of Mizrahi Jews who arrived in the Geonim period (raised by Erick86 and
confirm by the former 23AND ME north african Jews results under the cluster Iranian/Mesopotamian cluster)

ARMENIA MBA + ANATOLIA MLBA + IBERIA EMPURIES 2 = Roman era Greeks (Anatolians/Aegeans/Southern Italians)

BELL BEAKER ITA : Italic background of Southern Italians

DR2001
08-07-2019, 05:24 PM
https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg
32236

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Nobody is a scientist here, we are all amateurs, so I have no clear evidences strictly speaking.
On the other hand, we are all hobbyst and as such we use the best tool to date to model populations, It's the global 25.

Here is a straightforward model for Western Jews (I did'nt include Ashkenazim here because they have additional slavic and Western Euro admixture although they are part of the Western Jewry), on line with historical Jewish migrations
But of course I can be wrong

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Levant Roman LBN = Roman era levantines (Judeans)

EGY Hellenistic = Roman era ative Egyptians (Jewry of Alexandria)

Berber Tunisia = Native Norther African Roman era

IRAN Hasanlu IA + IRAN Hajji Firuz IA = Related to th Mesopotamian admiture of Mizrahi Jews who arrived in the Geonim period (raised by Erick86 and
confirm by the former 23AND ME north african Jews results under the cluster Iranian/Mesopotamian cluster)

ARMENIA MBA + ANATOLIA MLBA + IBERIA EMPURIES 2 = Roman era Greeks (Anatolians/Aegeans/Southern Italians)

BELL BEAKER ITA : Italic background of Southern Italians

23andme BETA is VERY far from perfect. Every levantine I saw- from Palestinian to Lebanese had huge amount of Mesopotamian under the BETA. We can not know it's actually related to Mizrahi Jews, it can easily be from the Judean side. Their Levantine category is far from being good at the moment.

That's why I am waiting to see how thing turn out to be when the BETA is over and they fix their problems.

If we go the the claim that Jews mixed with Southern Italian like population (Makes sense to me) we just need to remember that in 23andme new BETA south Italians get 20-30% Western Asian so part of the WA Jews get can be actually from Italy.

If you ask me 23andme is the best option for Non-Ashkenazi Jews currently.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 05:32 PM
If we want to talk haplogroups this is a project I was working on cooperating with a friend that isn't on this forum


YDNA-
https://scontent.ftlv5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/57154951_656805994755300_8704506710091366400_n.png ?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent.ftlv5-1.fna&oh=d1c08a280261f1062cda2c7efcb91362&oe=5D73ADFE

The most prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup J2 at around 20%. Notice that some Moroccan Jews belong to a European (Greek) subclades of haplogroup J2 such as J-L283 (many belong to that subclade) so it's not entirely of levantine origin. Some subclades of J2 were obviously of Levantine-Judean Origin.
Other levantine related haplogroups were Q-M342 (15%), J1 (6%), T-M70 (some subclades are west Mediterranean so I can't count entire 7% as levantine), E-V22 (5%), L-M342 (3%), and R2a (1%).

The second most Prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup R-M269 (W. Euro subclades as R-DF27, R-L23, R-DF98, R-U106, R-U152 , at 18%) which is again of Western European Origin. Other European haplogroups are some subclades of J2 as mentioned above, G-Z3428 (10%) which is also of Iberian origin, E-V13 (3%) and I2a (usually I-Y7219, 1%) probably from germanic tribes that settled in Iberia (Suevi, visigoths...).

When it comes to Berber haplogroups- E-L19 (10%), some subclades of T-M70 and Haplogroup E-V65 (1%).


mtDNA-
https://i.ibb.co/zmTQh83/image.png

The most prevalent haplogroup was H1 (36%), both subclades (H1e and H1o) are of European origin, (though H1 is also common in North Africa and not enough studies have been done on gentile Moroccans to determine whether they have those haplogroups as well). H4a1a (16%) is the second most prevalent haplogroup and it's mostly found in Europe but some subclades can be of levantine origin. Haplogroup HV0 (9%) is found among Iberians and Berbers reflecting West Mediterranean ancestry.
Haplogroup K1a (8%) subclades were K1a3a1a (Western Europe), K1a2a (NW Europe) and k1c2 (Western Europe and the maghreb).



I4a1a and I5 (6%) both reflect Western European lines. Haplogroup J1C (J1C1 and J1c3) reflects West Mediterranean lines (berber and Basque depends on the specific subclade). Haplogroup HV1a (4%) reflects Middle Eastern lines while HV1c (4%) probably reflects Italian maternal lines.
Haplogroup U6a (3%) reflects West Mediterranean origins (Berber and Iberian), while Haplogroup X2b (3%) probably reflects Levantine maternal lines
Haplogroup H2 (2%) and H3 (2%) are both of European origin but H3 can be from Berber female ancestors as well.
Haplogroup M1a1 (1%) probably came with Judean mothers while haplogroup L2a1 (1%) is of SSA West African origin and came from Berbers.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 05:40 PM
DR2001,

1.All but 2 of the 23andMe samples provided to you by Talombo are your grandma's cousin matches, correct? Your study based off them is thus biased and yes, even if the cousins weren't that close. This is because uniform procreation and uniform representation on 23andMe aren't safe assumptions.

2. Why should we take 23andMe over studies? North African Jews are simply difficult to unpack and here is an example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3427049_pnas.1204840109fig04.jpg

You'll see the unique thing to North African Jews is that red component, which shows up more in European Jews than in the other groups. This could be that ancient Berber admixture that is mentioned in the Aegean-Jewish thread. However, it's more clearly visible in European Jews than in North African Muslims. If we add the red and purple components for North African Jews, then the 23andMe results you're posting represent about the 90th percentile of North African admixture among Moroccan Jews. You should at least wait for 23andMe to update their precision and recall statistics. You make a good argument that North African Muslims receive close to 100% North African and hence receiving any implies you have that much. However, this doesn't take into account that Jews also converted to Islam in North Africa. I've met enough Moroccan Muslims who've claimed that some side of their family comes from a Jewish-derived tribe. Are these all myths? The problem is that these people might be in 23andMe's reference panel. The same applies to Ashkenazim. Ashkenazim have Sephardic ancestry, and hence might be what those Sephardic Jews are matching when they get fairly high Ashkenazi scores. Eastern Sephardim get higher Ashkenazi scores than North African Sephardim, right? Weren't the Sephardim that settled Eastern Europe largely Eastern Sephardim?

3. It's been noted that Moroccan Jews appear to have higher Spanish ancestry than Eastern Sephardim. If this is from those elusive Anusim, who arrived much later in Morocco, then the Spanish ancestry should be within the matching window. Yet, you've said that you first get cousin matches with other Sephardim, and then you get matched with Latinos. I also get Latino matches. Where are all those Spaniard matches if this comes from 1500's-1800's Spanish admixture? There should be a hefty amount, arguably more than you get with Latinos. I have a couple Spaniard matches, and then a lot of Latinos. I bet it's the same for you.

asm
08-07-2019, 05:46 PM
My mother and I match the first on 2 different segments, and my mother matches the second. All 3 of the segments are between 7 and 9 cM.

However, I’ve been cataloguing my Sephardi, Iberian, Italian, and Latin American matches for awhile.

There’ve been a small handful of Turkish Jews (plus a likely converso Muslim Turk with roots in Thessaloniki), and a small handful of Moroccan and Tunisian Jews. These have been dwarfed by the number of matches from Portugal, Spain, and all corners of Latin America, who are much less likely than Turkish Jews to be part-Ashkenazi.

What can you (or other users) say about the fact that some Turks,Kurds and Caucasians get Sephardic,Morocco Jews,Sicilian,Cretan on Oracles,including myself.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 05:49 PM
DR2001,

1.All but 2 of the 23andMe samples provided to you by Talombo are your grandma's cousin matches, correct? Your study based off them is thus biased and yes, even if the cousins weren't that close. This is because uniform procreation and uniform representation on 23andMe aren't safe assumptions.

2. Why should we take 23andMe over studies? North African Jews are simply difficult to unpack and here is an example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3427049_pnas.1204840109fig04.jpg

You'll see the unique thing to North African Jews is that red component, which shows up more in European Jews than in the other groups. This could be that ancient Berber admixture that is mentioned in the Aegean-Jewish thread. However, it's more clearly visible in European Jews than in North African Muslims. If we add the red and purple components for North African Jews, then the 23andMe results you're posting represent about the 90th percentile of North African admixture among Moroccan Jews. You should at least wait for 23andMe to update their precision and recall statistics. You make a good argument that North African Muslims receive close to 100% North African and hence receiving any implies you have that much. However, this doesn't take into account that Jews also converted to Islam in North Africa. I've met enough Moroccan Muslims who've claimed that some side of their family comes from a Jewish-derived tribe. Are these all myths? The problem is that these people might be in 23andMe's reference panel. The same applies to Ashkenazim. Ashkenazim have Sephardic ancestry, and hence might be what those Sephardic Jews are matching when they get fairly high Ashkenazi scores. Eastern Sephardim get higher Ashkenazi scores than North African Sephardim, right? Weren't the Sephardim that settled Eastern Europe largely Eastern Sephardim?

3. It's been noted that Moroccan Jews appear to have higher Spanish ancestry than Eastern Sephardim. If this is from those elusive Anusim, who arrived much later in Morocco, then the Spanish ancestry should be within the matching window. Yet, you've said that you first get cousin matches with other Sephardim, and then you get matched with Latinos. I also get Latino matches. Where are all those Spaniard matches if this comes from 1500's-1800's Spanish admixture? There should be a hefty amount, arguably more than you get with Latinos. I have a couple Spaniard matches, and then a lot of Latinos. I bet it's the same for you.

If you are referring to the haplogroups study. for the YDNA We only took people with different last names, so I am not sure if you can consider it very biased. For the mtdna possibly.
Autosomally I wasn't making any assumption from the matches, just was interesting to see the percentages.

Iv'e seen Moroccan Jews that get more than 100 matches from Iberia. My grandmother isn't one of them, but it's there.
We are all just speculating, but give me a reasonable explanation for why would North African Jews have more Iberian Ancestry compared to East Sephardim?

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:03 PM
If we want to talk haplogroups this is a project I was working on cooperating with a friend that isn't on this forum


YDNA-
https://scontent.ftlv5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/57154951_656805994755300_8704506710091366400_n.png ?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent.ftlv5-1.fna&oh=d1c08a280261f1062cda2c7efcb91362&oe=5D73ADFE

The most prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup J2 at around 20%. Notice that some Moroccan Jews belong to a European (Greek) subclades of haplogroup J2 such as J-L283 (many belong to that subclade) so it's not entirely of levantine origin. Some subclades of J2 were obviously of Levantine-Judean Origin.
Other levantine related haplogroups were Q-M342 (15%), J1 (6%), T-M70 (some subclades are west Mediterranean so I can't count entire 7% as levantine), E-V22 (5%), L-M342 (3%), and R2a (1%).

The second most Prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup R-M269 (W. Euro subclades as R-DF27, R-L23, R-DF98, R-U106, R-U152 , at 18%) which is again of Western European Origin. Other European haplogroups are some subclades of J2 as mentioned above, G-Z3428 (10%) which is also of Iberian origin, E-V13 (3%) and I2a (usually I-Y7219, 1%) probably from germanic tribes that settled in Iberia (Suevi, visigoths...).

When it comes to Berber haplogroups- E-L19 (10%), some subclades of T-M70 and Haplogroup E-V65 (1%).


mtDNA-
https://i.ibb.co/zmTQh83/image.png

The most prevalent haplogroup was H1 (36%), both subclades (H1e and H1o) are of European origin, (though H1 is also common in North Africa and not enough studies have been done on gentile Moroccans to determine whether they have those haplogroups as well). H4a1a (16%) is the second most prevalent haplogroup and it's mostly found in Europe but some subclades can be of levantine origin. Haplogroup HV0 (9%) is found among Iberians and Berbers reflecting West Mediterranean ancestry.
Haplogroup K1a (8%) subclades were K1a3a1a (Western Europe), K1a2a (NW Europe) and k1c2 (Western Europe and the maghreb).



I4a1a and I5 (6%) both reflect Western European lines. Haplogroup J1C (J1C1 and J1c3) reflects West Mediterranean lines (berber and Basque depends on the specific subclade). Haplogroup HV1a (4%) reflects Middle Eastern lines while HV1c (4%) probably reflects Italian maternal lines.
Haplogroup U6a (3%) reflects West Mediterranean origins (Berber and Iberian), while Haplogroup X2b (3%) probably reflects Levantine maternal lines
Haplogroup H2 (2%) and H3 (2%) are both of European origin but H3 can be from Berber female ancestors as well.
Haplogroup M1a1 (1%) probably came with Judean mothers while haplogroup L2a1 (1%) is of SSA West African origin and came from Berbers.

U6a and L2a1 appear among Ashkenazim, where L2a1 appears at about the same rate, so I'm skeptical of a Berber origin for L2a1. Costa 2013 couldn't arrive at an origin for U6a in Ashkenazim. What makes you confident it's Mediterranean(you mean South European here) and Berber? Do you mean J1C1 as a terminal clade? Because J1C15 is probably Judean. The others I'm simply largely unfamiliar with.

jonahst
08-07-2019, 06:09 PM
https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg
32236

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Nobody is a scientist here, we are all amateurs, so I have no clear evidences strictly speaking.
On the other hand, we are all hobbyst and as such we use the best tool to date to model populations, It's the global 25.

Here is a straightforward model for Western Jews (I did'nt include Ashkenazim here because they have additional slavic and Western Euro admixture although they are part of the Western Jewry), on line with historical Jewish migrations
But of course I can be wrong

https://www.noelshack.com/2019-32-3-1565197423-western-jews.jpg

Levant Roman LBN = Roman era levantines (Judeans)

EGY Hellenistic = Roman era ative Egyptians (Jewry of Alexandria)

Berber Tunisia = Native Norther African Roman era

IRAN Hasanlu IA + IRAN Hajji Firuz IA = Related to th Mesopotamian admiture of Mizrahi Jews who arrived in the Geonim period (raised by Erick86 and
confirm by the former 23AND ME north african Jews results under the cluster Iranian/Mesopotamian cluster)

ARMENIA MBA + ANATOLIA MLBA + IBERIA EMPURIES 2 = Roman era Greeks (Anatolians/Aegeans/Southern Italians)

BELL BEAKER ITA : Italic background of Southern Italians

It's easy to create an historically plausible model that gives Western Jews 40-60% Levant.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:12 PM
If you are referring to the haplogroups study. for the YDNA We only took people with different last names, so I am not sure if you can consider it very biased. For the mtdna possibly.
Autosomally I wasn't making any assumption from the matches, just was interesting to see the percentages.

Iv'e seen Moroccan Jews that get more than 100 matches from Iberia. My grandmother isn't one of them, but it's there.
We are all just speculating, but give me a reasonable explanation for why would North African Jews have more Iberian Ancestry compared to East Sephardim?

1. When and how did Moroccan and Algerian Jews adopt surnames?
2. I'm not confident that North African Jews do have substantially more Iberian than East Sephardim, given the genetic overlap between Iberians and North Africans. Some North Africans still score Iberian in the Beta. It can also be because they're more closely related to ex-Jews in Spain. Those who get 100 matches in Iberia, how many Latino matches do they get?

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:15 PM
Same here; surprising (to me) Mexico DR and PR matches

Puerto Rico, Brazil, and Mexico for me. A couple from Aruba and Suriname.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 06:21 PM
U6a and L2a1 appear among Ashkenazim, where L2a1 appears at about the same rate, so I'm skeptical of a Berber origin for L2a1. Costa 2013 couldn't arrive at an origin for U6a in Ashkenazim. What makes you confident it's Mediterranean(you mean South European here) and Berber? Do you mean J1C1 as a terminal clade? Because J1C15 is probably Judean. The others I'm simply largely unfamiliar with.

We didn't write the terminal clade in the graph. I based the categorisation on Eupedia, Mtree and wikipedia.
L2a1 and U6 are mostly present among North West Africans and L2a1 among Sub Saharan people
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062890/

The fact that one haplogroup is found at low rate among Both Ashkenazim and North African Jews doesn't mean it's origin cannot be berber.
Ashkenazi Jews also carry the North African mutation for Parkinsons disease (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0181335). Moroccan Jews (via Spain) probably brought some berber markers into Ashkeanzi communities. We are also talking about haplogroups that appear at such a low frequency that it's very hard to know.


So the most likely scenario to me is that both haplogroups are likely to be of North African origin. if you have other explanation please suggest it here.

About J1c- the terminal clades were J1C1 and J1C3 (mainly J1C3). J1C1 seems to be common in the Basques while J1C3 is also present among Guanches.
When I wrote Mediterranean I wasn't meaning European. Mediterranean to me is Broadly MENA/Southern Europe.

hartaisarlag
08-07-2019, 06:21 PM
Same here; surprising (to me) Mexico DR and PR matches

Yes, whether it's capturing a real pattern of crypto-Jewish migration or it's a sample bias thing, mine are also skewed dramatically toward Mexico, New Mexico, and Puerto Rico.

That said, IIRC there are also Dominicans, Cubans, Costa Ricans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Colombians, Peruvians, Paraguayans, Brazilians, Chileans, and Argentinians.

(Plus Spaniards, Portuguese (some with attested crypto-Jewish roots, some without), Turkish Jews, Syrian Jews (w/Sephardic surname), an Egyptian Jew (w/Sephardic surname), a Moroccan Jew, a Tunisian Jew, and w/less confidence, a fair number of Italian-Americans.)

hartaisarlag
08-07-2019, 06:25 PM
If we want to talk haplogroups this is a project I was working on cooperating with a friend that isn't on this forum


YDNA-
https://scontent.ftlv5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/57154951_656805994755300_8704506710091366400_n.png ?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent.ftlv5-1.fna&oh=d1c08a280261f1062cda2c7efcb91362&oe=5D73ADFE

The most prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup J2 at around 20%. Notice that some Moroccan Jews belong to a European (Greek) subclades of haplogroup J2 such as J-L283 (many belong to that subclade) so it's not entirely of levantine origin. Some subclades of J2 were obviously of Levantine-Judean Origin.
Other levantine related haplogroups were Q-M342 (15%), J1 (6%), T-M70 (some subclades are west Mediterranean so I can't count entire 7% as levantine), E-V22 (5%), L-M342 (3%), and R2a (1%).

The second most Prevalent haplogroup was haplogroup R-M269 (W. Euro subclades as R-DF27, R-L23, R-DF98, R-U106, R-U152 , at 18%) which is again of Western European Origin. Other European haplogroups are some subclades of J2 as mentioned above, G-Z3428 (10%) which is also of Iberian origin, E-V13 (3%) and I2a (usually I-Y7219, 1%) probably from germanic tribes that settled in Iberia (Suevi, visigoths...).

When it comes to Berber haplogroups- E-L19 (10%), some subclades of T-M70 and Haplogroup E-V65 (1%).

No E-M34 whatsoever? Again, worth noting that the most basal member of the non-Ashkenazi sub-branch of E-Y6923 is a Libyan Jew, but then again, seems like nothing about other Jewish groups can be generalized to the Libyans and their unique population history.

Targum
08-07-2019, 06:25 PM
Ashkenazim have Berber admixture in antiquity as well from Cyrene

StillWater
08-07-2019, 06:41 PM
We didn't write the terminal clade in the graph. I based the categorisation on Eupedia, Mtree and wikipedia.
L2a1 and U6 are mostly present among North West Africans and Sub Saharan people (
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062890/

The fact that one haplogroup is found at low rate among Both Ashkenazim and North African Jews doesn't mean it's origin cannot be berber.
Ashkenazi Jews also carry the North African mutation for Parkinsons disease (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0181335). Moroccan Jews (via Spain) probably brought some berber markers into Ashkeanzi communities. We are also talking about haplogroups that appear at such a low frequency that it's very hard to know.


So the most likely scenario to me is that both haplogroups are likely to be of North African origin. if you have other explanation please suggest it here.

About J1c- the terminal clades were J1C1 and J1C3 (mainly J1C3). J1C1 seems to be common in the Basques while J1C3 is also present among Guanches.
When I wrote Mediterranean I wasn't meaning European. Mediterranean to me is Broadly MENA/Southern Europe.

1. Eupedia is garbage. Wikipedia isn't any better for this. I'm not that familiar with Mtree.
2. Sure, it could've came into Ashkenazim from Moroccan Jews. However, it's odd that the rate is around the same - which was the key point. I also don't need another suggestion. What you need to do is to edit your study to distinguish opinions, probabilities and certainties. However, I can suggest other explanations, even though I don't have to for the point that I made. When you assigned it a Berber origin, you didn't mean its most ancient origin, but rather the group that Jews mated with to receive it. It could've came from an Iberian woman. Sure, she would've inherited it from an African source - but you didn't mean that. Show me the subclades of L2a1 for these Moroccan Jews.

U6a is how old - 27k years? The YDNA R1a has around the same date and largely appears in Eastern Europe, yet we now know the clades among Jews are almost always Judean.

DR2001
08-07-2019, 06:57 PM
1. Eupedia is garbage. Wikipedia isn't any better for this. I'm not that familiar with Mtree.
2. Sure, it could've came into Ashkenazim from Moroccan Jews. However, it's odd that the rate is around the same - which was the key point. I also don't need another suggestion. What you need to do is to edit your study to distinguish opinions, probabilities and certainties. However, I can suggest other explanations, even though I don't have to for the point that I made. When you assigned it a Berber origin, you didn't mean its most ancient origin, but rather the group that Jews mated with to receive it. It could've came from an Iberian woman. Sure, she would've inherited it from an African source - but you didn't mean that. Show me the subclades of L2a1 for these Moroccan Jews.

U6a is how old - 27k years? The YDNA R1a has around the same date and largely appears in Eastern Europe, yet we now know the clades among Jews are almost always Judean.

And that's exactly why I wrote- "Haplogroup U6a (3%) reflects West Mediterranean origins (Berber and Iberian)" I am aware it might be from both groups.

23andme didn't give a subclade for L2a1, I am aware there is actually an Ashkenazi subclade for L2a1 but when you look at L2a1 you see it's most commonly found today among West, Central and North African.

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1/

Most subclades are almost completely African.


You just gave me a lecture about "probabilities and certainties". So you tell me- what are the probabilities it's of Iberian origin (As much as I remember L2a1 frequency in Iberia is also 1%) or levantine origin; compared to the probability it's of African origin.

hartaisarlag
08-07-2019, 07:10 PM
OK—if Eastern Sephardic Jews show signs of being substantially non-Sephardic (Romaniote, Ashkenazi, and Italki), and North African Sephardic Jews are a very mixed bag, ranging from heavily Berber-tinged from pre-Sephardi Jews, to heavily Iberian-tinged from bnei anusim, does that leave us with any reasonable gauge as to the Iberian and North African admixture of pre-expulsion Spanish Jews?

In "The Emergence of the Medieval Jewish Diaspora(s) of Europe from the Ninth to the Twelfth Centuries" (2018) Michael Toch hypothesizes that the earliest Sephardic community was seeded primarily from North Africa, and suggests that DNA evidence might be able to shed light on this. If it were safe to use, say, Turkish Jews as a proxy for pre-exilic Spanish Jews, there'd be a clear verdict: no, it was seeded primarily from Italy and/or the Hellenistic Diaspora. But it seems like we can't rely on this.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 07:11 PM
And that's exactly why I wrote- "Haplogroup U6a (3%) reflects West Mediterranean origins (Berber and Iberian)" I am aware it might be from both groups.

23andme didn't give a subclade for L2a1, I am aware there is actually an Ashkenazi subclade for L2a1 but when you look at L2a1 you see it's most commonly found today among West, Central and North African.

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1/

Most subclades are almost completely African.


You just gave me a lecture about "probabilities and certainties". So you tell me- what are the probabilities it's of Iberian origin (As much as I remember L2a1 frequency in Iberia is also 1%) or levantine origin; compared to the probability it's of African origin.

"Reflects" is too strong for how much you know about the clade and what I was talking about was your statement on L2a1. You need to edit it. I'm not going to spit out probabilities where I don't have enough info - an error I'm trying to prevent you from committing. However, if it's L2a1l, as is sometimes found in Ashkenazim, then I refer you to this (taken from Kevin Brook's website):


G. González-Fores, F. Tassi, et al. "A western route of prehistoric human migration from Africa into the Iberian Peninsula." Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 286:1895 (January 23, 2019). This study reveals that a person who lived in Córdoba, Spain about 3,600 years ago belonged to mtDNA haplogroup L2a1l, which is described as "a typical sub-Saharan haplogroup, to our knowledge never described before in ancient individuals outside Africa. [...] in present-day populations haplogroup L2a1 l is most frequent in West/West-Central Africa [41], [...] In addition, there are no members belonging to L2a1 l in present-day samples from North Africa."

U6a might be West Asian. Your statement doesn't reflect that.

passenger
08-07-2019, 09:10 PM
Puerto Rico, Brazil, and Mexico for me. A couple from Aruba and Suriname.

Likewise. Are we talking about MyHeritage here?

StillWater
08-07-2019, 09:12 PM
Likewise. Are we talking about MyHeritage here?

Some from there, others from AncestryDNA. It's harder to find them on AncestryDNA, because I can't search by ethnicity or country.

passenger
08-07-2019, 09:31 PM
OK—if Eastern Sephardic Jews show signs of being substantially non-Sephardic (Romaniote, Ashkenazi, and Italki), and North African Sephardic Jews are a very mixed bag, ranging from heavily Berber-tinged from pre-Sephardi Jews, to heavily Iberian-tinged from bnei anusim, does that leave us with any reasonable gauge as to the Iberian and North African admixture of pre-expulsion Spanish Jews?

In "The Emergence of the Medieval Jewish Diaspora(s) of Europe from the Ninth to the Twelfth Centuries" (2018) Michael Toch hypothesizes that the earliest Sephardic community was seeded primarily from North Africa, and suggests that DNA evidence might be able to shed light on this. If it were safe to use, say, Turkish Jews as a proxy for pre-exilic Spanish Jews, there'd be a clear verdict: no, it was seeded primarily from Italy and/or the Hellenistic Diaspora. But it seems like we can't rely on this.

I haven't seen too many 23andMe results for Eastern Sephardim, but my Eastern Sephardic matches on MyHeritage all get a substantial percentage of the North African Sephardic Jewish category (around 20% on average) and some of them also get general North African - at least one has as much as 15%. Italian and Greek are anywhere from 25-50% and Iberian is barely present. They also get anywhere from 5-18% Ashkenazi, and the rest is some combination of West Asian (around 10%) and Middle Eastern. Of course I'm only talking about a dozen examples I've found from my own matches, so that's hardly conclusive.

I still think we're far from being able to gauge the average composition of pre-exilic Iberian Jews, and a dissertation I recently came across on the Chueta of Mallorca says as much. All present-day Sephardic populations have admixture from multiple Jewish, and to some extent non-Jewish populations and locating a reliable common denominator that isn't also shared by other Jewish populations seems challenging. I wouldn't rule out a substantial North African link (beyond that shared by Western Jews as a whole) as something that ties many Sephardim to a common Iberian and pre-Iberian Maghrebian origin though.

StillWater
08-07-2019, 09:38 PM
I haven't seen too many 23andMe results for Eastern Sephardim, but my Eastern Sephardic matches on MyHeritage all get a substantial percentage of the North African Sephardic Jewish category (around 20% on average) and some of them also get general North African - at least one has as much as 15%. Italian and Greek are anywhere from 25-50% and Iberian is barely present. They also get anywhere from 5-18% Ashkenazi, and the rest is some combination of West Asian (around 10%) and Middle Eastern. Of course I'm only talking about a dozen examples I've found from my own matches, so that's hardly conclusive.

I still think we're far from being able to gauge the average composition of pre-exilic Iberian Jews, and a dissertation I recently came across on the Chueta of Mallorca says as much. All present-day Sephardic populations have admixture from multiple Jewish, and to some extent non-Jewish populations and locating a reliable common denominator that isn't also shared by other Jewish populations seems challenging. I wouldn't rule out a substantial North African link (beyond that shared by Western Jews as a whole) as something that ties many Sephardim to a common Iberian and pre-Iberian Maghrebian origin though.

I have Eastern Sephardic matches from Lebanon - didn't think you could still find a Jew there. Even Arabic first names. Then again, it's possible they set their country to that and used an Arabic first name.

passenger
08-07-2019, 11:29 PM
For anyone who's interested, here are the MyHeritage results of some of my Eastern Sephardic (Turkish and Greek) DNA matches (their results are in the right-hand column). I've posted some of them before in the big Western Jews thread, but figured I'd post more here. If anyone has more results from MyHeritage or other sites, I'd be interested to see.

3224332244322453224632247

passenger
08-07-2019, 11:30 PM
322483224932250

jetshop
08-08-2019, 01:36 AM
2 Turkish Sephardic Jew kits:

Z737762
Z155123

Z737762
Largest segment = 7.0 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 12.7 cM (0.355 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.1

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

129481 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.677 Pct SNPs are full identical


Z155123
Largest segment = 6.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 17.6 cM (0.493 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.8

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

130004 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.818 Pct SNPs are full identical

Edit: I also match with three other Sephardic Turkish Jewish kits: Z737762 at 8.7 cM, Z019906 at 11.2 cM, and Z416293 at 7.9 cM. I'm Ashkenazi.

passenger
08-08-2019, 02:02 AM
Z737762
Largest segment = 7.0 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 12.7 cM (0.355 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.1

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

129481 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.677 Pct SNPs are full identical


Z155123
Largest segment = 6.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 17.6 cM (0.493 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.8

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

130004 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.818 Pct SNPs are full identical

Edit: I also match with three other Sephardic Turkish Jewish kits: Z737762 at 8.7 cM, Z019906 at 11.2 cM, and Z416293 at 7.9 cM. I'm Ashkenazi.

Funny, I don't match any of those Turkish kits so far, at least not at 7cM. Has anyone come across any others?

jetshop
08-08-2019, 03:38 AM
Funny, I don't match any of those Turkish kits so far, at least not at 7cM. Has anyone come across any others?
I found these posted on another forum.

Kit Number: Z450466
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4950

Kit Number: Z447097
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4953

Kit Number: Z737762
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4955

Kit Number: Z019906
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5033

Kit Number: Z859869
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5075

Kit Number: Z416293
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5832

Kit Number: Z923259
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5877

Kit Number: Z155123
Name: SephardiJewTurkey6077

passenger
08-08-2019, 04:09 AM
I found these posted on another forum.

Kit Number: Z450466
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4950

Kit Number: Z447097
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4953

Kit Number: Z737762
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4955

Kit Number: Z019906
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5033

Kit Number: Z859869
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5075

Kit Number: Z416293
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5832

Kit Number: Z923259
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5877

Kit Number: Z155123
Name: SephardiJewTurkey6077

I only match the first one, with one 10.4 cM segment.

passenger
08-08-2019, 04:15 AM
Here's another batch of Eastern Sephardic MyHeritage matches. I'll put North African matches down below for comparison.

322513225232253

Targum
08-08-2019, 04:21 AM
Comparing Kit MXXXXXX (*Targum) [Migration - V4 - M] and Z155123 (SephardiJewTurkey6077) [Migration - F2 - Z]

Largest segment = 7.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.6 cM (0.211 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.4

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

119414 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.036 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.998 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.028 cpu seconds.



Comparing Kit MXXXXXX (*Targum) [Migration - V4 - M] and Z923259 (SephardiJewTurkey5877) [Migration - F2 - Z]
Largest segment = 8.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 15.8 cM (0.442 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.6

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

119186 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.460 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 1.138 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.029 cpu seconds.





Comparing Kit MXXXXXX (*Targum) [Migration - V4 - M] and Z416293 (SephardiJewTurkey5832) [Migration - F2 - Z]
Largest segment = 10.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 17.5 cM (0.490 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.8

2 shared segments found for this comparison.

119428 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.841 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.520 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.027 cpu seconds.






Comparing Kit MXXXXXX8 (*Targum) [Migration - V4 - M] and Z019906 (SephardiJewTurkey5033) [Migration - F2 - Z]
Largest segment = 7.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.2 cM (0.202 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

119600 SNPs used for this comparison.

52.137 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.284 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.028 cpu seconds.


Comparing Kit MXXXXXX (*Targum) [Migration - V4 - M] and Z447097 (SephardiJewTurkey4953) [Migration - F2 - Z]
Largest segment = 7.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.7 cM (0.214 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.4

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

119411 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.938 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.406 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.026 cpu seconds.

passenger
08-08-2019, 04:21 AM
North African

3225932260322613226232263

passenger
08-08-2019, 04:24 AM
3226432265322663226732268

jonahst
08-08-2019, 04:31 AM
Pretty interesting that (aside from one Algerian Jew) none of the North African Jews get any North African ancestry separate from the Sephardi North African Jewish category.

passenger
08-08-2019, 04:39 AM
Pretty interesting that (aside from one Algerian Jew) none of the North African Jews get any North African ancestry separate from the Sephardi North African Jewish category.

Which is especially odd since a number of the Eastern Sephardic ones get both Sephardic and non-Sephardic North African.

Bleach
08-08-2019, 09:37 AM
It's easy to create an historically plausible model that gives Western Jews 40-60% Levant.

Certainly Jonahst,
Maybe are you referring these kind of models ?

https://i.imgur.com/K78xJQf.png?1

Yes I know them , they more or less mold the famous Levant/Tuscan narrative don't they ?

Seabass
08-08-2019, 01:14 PM
Does your parent get matches from latin America? especially Puerto-rico and Mexico? My grandmother and I have more matches from latin America than from anywhere in the world (except for Morocco). I want to know whether East Sephardim too..

does you parent matches North African Sephardim?

Also can you post results of matches from Bulgaria and Yugoslavia? I really want to know if they mixed with Balkan Slavs.

At 23andme's Relative Finder setting of I'm guessing 7+ centimorgans and 500+ SNP count, my mum does not appear to have relatives from Latin America and Iberia.

Using the 23andme old 'countries of ancestry' feature I as a half Eastern Sephardic, half English person scored several Iberian and Latin American matches (obviously through Eastern Sephardic side) BUT this was at a more lenient setting of 5+ centimorgans as opposed to relative finders 7+ threshold.

32270 This is my mums relative count on 23andme

3227132272 These are my results (half Eastern Sephardic, half English) at 5 cM and 4 countries of birth. Notice the MANY Latin American matches, many Polish Ashkenazi Jewish matches even exceeding my English matches.

Worth keeping in mind 23andme does have a skewed customer demographic, but although it's been suggested Eastern Sephardic Jews may hardly descend from pre 1492 exiled Iberian Jews, I think my results suggest that's doubtful. Despite to my amazement that even Tunisian and Libyan Jews would score more 'Spanish and Portuguese' on ancestry composition than my mum. If Jonast is 90% Ashkenazi using the 90% confidence setting on ancestry composition and my mum scores 10% Ashkenazi, than it could be possible 5-15% of Sephardic Jews from Istanbul may derive from an early source of Ashkenazi Jews. Would be an amazing finding, but one I could believe.

jonahst
08-08-2019, 03:52 PM
Certainly Jonahst,
Maybe are you referring these kind of models ?

https://i.imgur.com/K78xJQf.png?1

Yes I know them , they more or less mold the famous Levant/Tuscan narrative don't they ?

Not quite, they still show substantial Aegean-type ancestry. They just don't overload the model with potential admixture from closely-related sources, which can eat away at the Levantine ancestry.

But overall, this model is better than the earlier one you posted even though it's far from perfect.

jonahst
08-08-2019, 03:55 PM
At 23andme's Relative Finder setting of I'm guessing 7+ centimorgans and 500+ SNP count, my mum does not appear to have relatives from Latin America and Iberia.

Using the 23andme old 'countries of ancestry' feature I as a half Eastern Sephardic, half English person scored several Iberian and Latin American matches (obviously through Eastern Sephardic side) BUT this was at a more lenient setting of 5+ centimorgans as opposed to relative finders 7+ threshold.

32270 This is my mums relative count on 23andme

3227132272 These are my results (half Eastern Sephardic, half English) at 5 cM and 4 countries of birth. Notice the MANY Latin American matches, many Polish Ashkenazi Jewish matches even exceeding my English matches.

Worth keeping in mind 23andme does have a skewed customer demographic, but although it's been suggested Eastern Sephardic Jews may hardly descend from pre 1492 exiled Iberian Jews, I think my results suggest that's doubtful. Despite to my amazement that even Tunisian and Libyan Jews would score more 'Spanish and Portuguese' on ancestry composition than my mum. If Jonast is 90% Ashkenazi using the 90% confidence setting on ancestry composition and my mum scores 10% Ashkenazi, than it could be possible 5-15% of Sephardic Jews from Istanbul may derive from an early source of Ashkenazi Jews. Would be an amazing finding, but one I could believe.

My dad's percentage when from 99% to 96% Ashkenazi.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 08:03 PM
Do any of you get Bukharian and Iranian Jewish matches? I'm trying to figure out if they're part Ashkenazi or I'm part Mizrachi.

hartaisarlag
08-08-2019, 08:14 PM
Do any of you get Bukharian and Iranian Jewish matches? I'm trying to figure out if they're part Ashkenazi or I'm part Mizrachi.

I’ve never gotten an Eastern Jewish match.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 08:18 PM
I’ve never gotten an Eastern Jewish match.

Are you on MyHeritage? Try the following. Select Mizrachi as the ethnicity and start from the last page. They won't be close cousins.

passenger
08-08-2019, 08:54 PM
Do any of you get Bukharian and Iranian Jewish matches? I'm trying to figure out if they're part Ashkenazi or I'm part Mizrachi.

Not judging by my MyHeritage matches. All of my matches with Mizrahi percentages also seem to have recent Ashkenazi and/or Sephardic ancestry.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 09:00 PM
Not judging by my MyHeritage matches. All of my matches with Mizrahi percentages also seem to have recent Ashkenazi and/or Sephardic ancestry.

I have Bukharian matches with full Bukharian family trees.

passenger
08-08-2019, 09:51 PM
FYI, here are the MH results of a couple Italian Jewish matches with extensive trees full of typically Italian Jewish names and no recent Ashkenazi ancestry. I was surprised how high their Ashkenazi percentages are, but maybe I shouldn't be. Does this seem typical?

3228332284

StillWater
08-08-2019, 09:53 PM
FYI, here are the MH results of a couple Italian Jewish matches with extensive trees full of typically Italian Jewish names and no recent Ashkenazi ancestry. I was surprised how high their Ashkenazi percentages are, but maybe I shouldn't be. Does this seem typical?

3228332284

I have a couple matches like that too. Didn't know what to make of them either.

Targum
08-08-2019, 10:49 PM
I have a couple matches like that too. Didn't know what to make of them either.

Why is this surprising at all? Italqim and Romaniotes are the seed populations of all Western Jews

passenger
08-08-2019, 10:53 PM
Why is this surprising at all? Italqim and Romaniotes are the seed populations of all Western Jews

Like I said, I probably shouldn't be surprised. I guess I just didn't expect the percentage to be quite that high after so many centuries and years of mixing with other Jewish groups. I do suspect that there's some influence from Northern Italian Ashkenazim judging by some of the surnames though.

StillWater
08-08-2019, 10:57 PM
Why is this surprising at all? Italqim and Romaniotes are the seed populations of all Western Jews

Not surprised. It's hard to tell what they are from such little info. This is because some Ashkenazim in Italy adopted Italian surnames.

jonahst
08-08-2019, 11:44 PM
FYI, here are the MH results of a couple Italian Jewish matches with extensive trees full of typically Italian Jewish names and no recent Ashkenazi ancestry. I was surprised how high their Ashkenazi percentages are, but maybe I shouldn't be. Does this seem typical?

3228332284

I have a lot of similar matches, maybe even the same people. But I agree with Stillwater, that it's probably Ashkenazi Jews who moved to Italy rather than just genetic similarity.

On a similar note, I noticed that some of my Latin American matches on MyHeritage are like 50-80% Amerindian, 0% Iberian or Italian, 0% Ashkenazi or Sephardi Jewish, 10-15% Northern European, and then like 5-10% MENA. Pretty interesting and bizarre. I also wouldn't read too much into these matches.

I also have a couple of non-Ashkenazi Jewish matches that are almost entirely Maghrebi or Mizrahi, but they do get small amounts of Ashkenazi. I think almost all Mizrahi and Western Jews will get small % of Ashkenazi, so I don't think it necessarily means literal Ashkenazi ancestry.

jetshop
08-08-2019, 11:48 PM
Do any of you get Bukharian and Iranian Jewish matches? I'm trying to figure out if they're part Ashkenazi or I'm part Mizrachi.

I do.

StillWater
08-09-2019, 12:02 AM
I do.

I wonder if we match the same people. I'll pm you the names. Remind me your old countries, please.

jonahst
08-09-2019, 08:12 AM
Certainly Jonahst,
Maybe are you referring these kind of models ?

https://i.imgur.com/K78xJQf.png?1

Yes I know them , they more or less mold the famous Levant/Tuscan narrative don't they ?

Though far from perfect, here's a better model than the one you posted earlier.




Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Anatolia Isparta EBA
CZE Early Slav
DEU MA
IRN Hajji Firuz IA
ITA Collegno MA
Iberia Northeast Empuries2
Levant LBN Roman
Mozabite


1
Ashkenazi_Jew:Average

1.0931
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=0%2C0.83%2C6.67%2C5.83%2C29.17% 2C12.5%2C39.17%2C5.83&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
0
0.83
6.67
5.83
29.17
12.5
39.17
5.83


2
Italian_Jew:Average

0.9965
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=2.5%2C0%2C0.83%2C1.67%2C24.17%2 C22.5%2C40.83%2C7.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
2.5
0
0.83
1.67
24.17
22.5
40.83
7.5


3
Lebanese_Christian:Average

1.4182
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=7.5%2C0%2C0%2C8.33%2C2.5%2C1.67 %2C77.5%2C2.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
7.5
0
0
8.33
2.5
1.67
77.5
2.5


4
Libyan_Jew:Average

1.1862
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=4.17%2C0%2C0.83%2C2.5%2C11.67%2 C12.5%2C47.5%2C20.83&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
4.17
0
0.83
2.5
11.67
12.5
47.5
20.83


5
Moroccan_Jew:Average

1.7922
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=5.83%2C0%2C0%2C3.33%2C23.33%2C1 0.83%2C36.67%2C20&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
5.83
0
0
3.33
23.33
10.83
36.67
20


6
Romaniote_Jew:Average

0.8262
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=7.5%2C0.83%2C0.83%2C3.33%2C17.5 %2C16.67%2C45.83%2C7.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
7.5
0.83
0.83
3.33
17.5
16.67
45.83
7.5


7
Sephardic_Jew:Average

1.0413
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=8.33%2C0%2C3.33%2C5%2C16.67%2C2 0%2C37.5%2C9.17&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
8.33
0
3.33
5
16.67
20
37.5
9.17


8
Syrian_Jew:Average

1.4029
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=10%2C0.83%2C3.33%2C14.17%2C8.33 %2C7.5%2C47.5%2C8.33&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
10
0.83
3.33
14.17
8.33
7.5
47.5
8.33


9
Tunisian_Jew:Average

1.2407
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22Anatolia_Isparta_EBA%22%2C%22CZE_ Early_Slav%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22IRN_Hajji_Firuz_ IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C%22Iberia_Northeas t_Empuries2%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozab ite%22%5D&add_groups_weights=5.83%2C0%2C2.5%2C1.67%2C6.67%2C 15%2C49.17%2C19.17&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
5.83
0
2.5
1.67
6.67
15
49.17
19.17



Another one, with some different components.




Sample
Details
Fit
Map
ARM LBA
Anatolia Isparta EBA
DEU MA
EGY Hellenistic
IRN Hajji Firuz IA
ITA Collegno MA
Iberia Northeast Empuries2
Iberia Southeast C.5-8CE
Levant LBN Roman
Mozabite


1
Ashkenazi_Jew:Average

1.0485
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=3.33%2C0.83%2C5%2C5%2C5%2C25.83 %2C10.83%2C10%2C32.5%2C1.67&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
3.33
0.83
5
5
5
25.83
10.83
10
32.5
1.67


2
Italian_Jew:Average

0.9972
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=1.67%2C2.5%2C1.67%2C3.33%2C0.83 %2C16.67%2C20%2C11.67%2C39.17%2C2.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
1.67
2.5
1.67
3.33
0.83
16.67
20
11.67
39.17
2.5


3
Lebanese_Christian:Average

1.1748
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=2.5%2C11.67%2C0%2C10.83%2C8.33% 2C2.5%2C3.33%2C0.83%2C59.17%2C0.83&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
2.5
11.67
0
10.83
8.33
2.5
3.33
0.83
59.17
0.83


4
Libyan_Jew:Average

1.1428
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=1.67%2C5%2C0.83%2C5%2C2.5%2C5.8 3%2C5.83%2C16.67%2C42.5%2C14.17&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
1.67
5
0.83
5
2.5
5.83
5.83
16.67
42.5
14.17


5
Moroccan_Jew:Average

1.4447
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=0%2C6.67%2C0.83%2C0.83%2C4.17%2 C2.5%2C1.67%2C38.33%2C37.5%2C7.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
0
6.67
0.83
0.83
4.17
2.5
1.67
38.33
37.5
7.5


6
Romaniote_Jew:Average

0.8461
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=3.33%2C10.83%2C0.83%2C6.67%2C4. 17%2C11.67%2C16.67%2C8.33%2C33.33%2C4.17&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
3.33
10.83
0.83
6.67
4.17
11.67
16.67
8.33
33.33
4.17


7
Sephardic_Jew:Average

0.9647
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=5.83%2C7.5%2C1.67%2C4.17%2C2.5% 2C12.5%2C19.17%2C11.67%2C30%2C5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
5.83
7.5
1.67
4.17
2.5
12.5
19.17
11.67
30
5


8
Syrian_Jew:Average

1.3235
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=10.83%2C10.83%2C0%2C5%2C7.5%2C5 .83%2C5.83%2C7.5%2C41.67%2C5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
10.83
10.83
0
5
7.5
5.83
5.83
7.5
41.67
5


9
Tunisian_Jew:Average

1.1059
Open Map (http://185.144.156.77:3000/maps?datasheet_selected=%5B%22global25%22%5D&add_groups=%5B%22ARM_LBA%22%2C%22Anatolia_Isparta_ EBA%22%2C%22DEU_MA%22%2C%22EGY_Hellenistic%22%2C%2 2IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA%22%2C%22ITA_Collegno_MA%22%2C% 22Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2%22%2C%22Iberia_Southe ast_c.5-8CE%22%2C%22Levant_LBN_Roman%22%2C%22Mozabite%22%5 D&add_groups_weights=0.83%2C10%2C0.83%2C9.17%2C2.5%2 C2.5%2C7.5%2C15.83%2C38.33%2C12.5&add_individuals=%5B%5D&add_individuals_weights=)
0.83
10
0.83
9.17
2.5
2.5
7.5
15.83
38.33
12.5

Seabass
08-09-2019, 02:00 PM
I'm going to guess these SE Iberians of the 5th to 8th Century AD are Moriscos? The very high result for Moroccan Jews and the low Mozabite result for the Tunisian Jews I think may be compounded by the inclusion of Moriscos in the model. First I've seen Western Jews modelled with them so it's interesting.

curiousDNAguy12
08-10-2019, 08:42 PM
I found these posted on another forum.

Kit Number: Z450466
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4950

Kit Number: Z447097
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4953

Kit Number: Z737762
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4955

Kit Number: Z019906
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5033

Kit Number: Z859869
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5075

Kit Number: Z416293
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5832

Kit Number: Z923259
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5877

Kit Number: Z155123
Name: SephardiJewTurkey6077

thanks! interesting, my dad matches the second

Largest segment = 7.9 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.9 cM (0.220 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.4

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

curiousDNAguy12
08-10-2019, 10:57 PM
32339

also how the hell do you explain matches like this

StillWater
08-10-2019, 11:29 PM
32339

also how the hell do you explain matches like this

That's not even that absurd. I have a match with 0% Caucasian. What's your background?

passenger
08-10-2019, 11:31 PM
32339

also how the hell do you explain matches like this

Is this yours? Where is the match from?

curiousDNAguy12
08-10-2019, 11:38 PM
Is this yours? Where is the match from?

yup,
i was inspired to look at certain countries for fun bc I came a cross this thread, am jewish haha(mostly ukraine, sorta near romania i was told)

this dude is from spain

32340

i was just talking to this other woman, i think she's from balearic islands

most of my or my dad's "non-jewish" matches are either latin american/spanish or some sort of eastern european like lithuanian though so it became an interesting pattern

passenger
08-11-2019, 01:13 AM
yup,
i was inspired to look at certain countries for fun bc I came a cross this thread, am jewish haha(mostly ukraine, sorta near romania i was told)

this dude is from spain

32340

i was just talking to this other woman, i think she's from balearic islands

most of my or my dad's "non-jewish" matches are either latin american/spanish or some sort of eastern european like lithuanian though so it became an interesting pattern

A very large percentage of Iberians and Latin Americans have some Sephardic ancestry, which isn't necessarily detected as such by commercial tests. The question is why so many seemingly 100% Ashkenazi Jews would get a considerable number of such matches. Much has been said (including by forum members on other threads) about how Ashkenazim have sometimes exaggerated or completely fabricated tales of Sephardic ancestry, and I believe that's true. However, circulation of Sephardim in traditionally Ashkenazi lands (as well as Ashkenazim in parts of the Mediterranean) was not insignificant (see for example http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Sephardim). Yours might be a case of partial Sephardic descent, maybe through Romania, which was a big contact zone.

Balearic matches make sense. There was a significant Jewish community there, especially in Mallorca, and it's the only part of Spain with a well-documented crypto-Jewish community, the Chuetas, surviving into modern times.

StillWater
08-11-2019, 02:41 AM
yup,
i was inspired to look at certain countries for fun bc I came a cross this thread, am jewish haha(mostly ukraine, sorta near romania i was told)

this dude is from spain

32340

i was just talking to this other woman, i think she's from balearic islands

most of my or my dad's "non-jewish" matches are either latin american/spanish or some sort of eastern european like lithuanian though so it became an interesting pattern

Mine never respond to me.

StillWater
08-11-2019, 02:51 AM
Here is one from Spain(largest portion of his family seems to be from Cáceres):

32347

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 05:41 AM
Mine never respond to me.

do you have a pic on there? what language did you message them in?
Anyway this is what she responded to me after i asked her how she thinks we might be related
'Al final todos estamos más mezclados de lo que pensamos. Yo también me sorprendí al ver muchas de mis coincicencias de adn, pero hay que tener en cuenta que esto se remonta en muchos años atrás, y hay cosas que nosotros nunca hubiésemos imaginado. El echo de de que tus antepasados sean judíos no quiere decir que no puedan tener distintas procedencias.'

I want that other dude I posted though to respond to me (he hasn't though) because we share this random chunk of DNA (30 cM) and it lists us as 3-5 cousins which is impossible unless he had some recent jewish ancestry (maybe he does but it just doesn't show up). It lists him as ~ 90% southern european, 10% western european though

I also read about the "romanticizing" of sephardic lineages by some people...i guess that could be the case with some of my ancestors, or maybe they somehow got to southwestern ukraine thru the ottoman empire. What's interesting either way is that my cousin said my grandparents and great uncle (a jewish scholar) said some ancestors called their town "Little Valencia" because they had came from there..and then some of my matches have catalan names/are from balearic islands..probably a coincidence though

btw edited a few details hah

StillWater
08-11-2019, 05:46 AM
do you have a pic on there? what language did you message them in?
Anyway this is what she responded to me
'Al final todos estamos más mezclados de lo que pensamos. Yo también me sorprendí al ver muchas de mis coincicencias de adn, pero hay que tener en cuenta que esto se remonta en muchos años atrás, y hay cosas que nosotros nunca hubiésemos imaginado. El echo de de que tus antepasados sean judíos no quiere decir que no puedan tener distintas procedencias.'

I also read about the "romanticizing" of sephardic lineages by some people...i guess that could be the case with some of my ancestors, or maybe they somehow got to southwestern ukraine thru the ottoman empire. What's interesting either way is that my cousin said my grandparents and great uncle (a jewish scholar) said some ancestors called their town "Little Valencia" because they had came from there..and then some of my matches have catalan names/are from balearic islands..probably a coincidence though

I message them in English. Sometimes they'll be American Latinos and still no response. You think a picture helps that much?

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 05:53 AM
I message them in English. Sometimes they'll be American Latinos and still no response. You think a picture helps that much?

oh ok i speak spanish so i more often than not will approach people in spanish, and like half the time maybe i'll get a response haha
could be a number of factors though honestly, could be the way you approach, maybe seeing a smiling normal looking face motivates them to respond (i'd probably be more likely to respond to that honestly)

StillWater
08-11-2019, 06:06 AM
I also read about the "romanticizing" of sephardic lineages by some people...i guess that could be the case with some of my ancestors, or maybe they somehow got to southwestern ukraine thru the ottoman empire. What's interesting either way is that my cousin said my grandparents and great uncle (a jewish scholar) said some ancestors called their town "Little Valencia" because they had came from there..and then some of my matches have catalan names/are from balearic islands..probably a coincidence though

btw edited a few details hah

My bet is that you have more Sephardi ancestry than the average Ashkenazi. 30cm is a healthy amount. Where are your ancestors from? See if you can triangulate the segment. I also recommend emailing Kevin Alan Brook. How many mutual Ashkenazi matches do you have with him that match him at the 3-5th cousin range?

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 06:32 AM
All i know is my great great grandpa i think was from Ternopol (which i actually just looked up and it's not even that close to romania, that was other great grandparents, but I'd have to ask my parents - it's more straight up just central to slightly southern western ukraine). I also for sure have a little bit of (recent) slavic on my mom's side but that's a different story, and she's wouldn't have any sephardic as far as i know (even if my heritage says she's 10% iberian or whatever)

I didn't know about triangulation when i found this but i remember finding a mexican woman, a sephardic man (i messaged him and confirmed he only knew of sephardic ancestry), and this spanish guy sharing basicallythe same segment chunk (eyeballing it)

Who is Kevin Alana Brook? maybe i'll do that, thanks

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 06:33 AM
My bet is that you have more Sephardi ancestry than the average Ashkenazi. 30cm is a healthy amount. Where are your ancestors from? See if you can triangulate the segment. I also recommend emailing Kevin Alan Brook. How many mutual Ashkenazi matches do you have with him that match him at the 3-5th cousin range?


All i know is my great great grandpa i think was from Ternopol (which i actually just looked up and it's not even that close to romania, that was other great grandparents, but I'd have to ask my parents

I didn't know about triangulation when i found this but i remember finding a mexican woman, a sephardic man (i messaged him and confirmed he only knew of sephardic ancestry), and this spanish guy sharing basicallythe same segment chunk (eyeballing it)

Who is Kevin Alana Brook? maybe i'll do that, thanks [edit: my bad for the double post...can't figure out how to delete]

StillWater
08-11-2019, 06:42 AM
All i know is my great great grandpa i think was from Ternopol (which i actually just looked up and it's not even that close to romania, that was other great grandparents, but I'd have to ask my parents - it's more straight up just central to slightly southern western ukraine). I also for sure have a little bit of (recent) slavic on my mom's side but that's a different story, and she's wouldn't have any sephardic as far as i know (even if my heritage says she's 10% iberian or whatever)

I didn't know about triangulation when i found this but i remember finding a mexican woman, a sephardic man (i messaged him and confirmed he only knew of sephardic ancestry), and this spanish guy sharing basicallythe same segment chunk (eyeballing it)

Who is Kevin Alana Brook? maybe i'll do that, thanks [edit: my bad for the double post...can't figure out how to delete]

Ternopil/Tarnopol is a Galician city. It's not deep in Galicia, but it's just in there. I have a family member whose ancestry is from there. I know that he had ancestors come over during the Imperial time from Holland, but I don't know if it was to that city. It may be related. Perhaps, there was a somewhat recent migration of Dutch Sephardim to Tarnopol. As for the segment, sounds like you've triangulated it. MyHeritage makes it easier, since it shows you which matches triangulate a segment. Look to the right of the common matches for the segment icon. Why do you think that your mom's side has recent Slavic ancestry?

Kevin Alan Brook is a researcher. He has had a lot of experience with this.

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 06:56 AM
Why do you think that your mom's side has recent Slavic ancestry?

i took out the slavic thing cuz it's not relevant to the thread but it's because she got some recent ancestor locations on 23andme. She always thought her grandpa from warsaw looked slavic, ad then she got her results back, and the top location match was where warsaw was hah (anecdotal, but funny)

That theory is certainly possible, though it looks like I'm matching some sephardic people from greece, turkey, bosnia etc. Would they be related to Sephardic people in Holland since they're less genetically distinct as ashkenazi? I do have a bunch of distant Puerto rican matches though and a handful of brazilian matches and i bet dutch jews went there

alright so i checked the triangulation, and basically we match on multiple segments (one of which looks kind of big relatively). A bunch of the Ashkenazi ones match on the shorter segment. 12 people, like 8 of which seem to be ashenazi

StillWater
08-11-2019, 07:09 AM
i took out the slavic thing cuz it's not relevant to the thread but it's because she got some recent ancestor locations on 23andme. She always thought her grandpa from warsaw looked slavic, ad then she got her results back, and the top location match was where warsaw was hah (anecdotal, but funny)

That theory is certainly possible, though it looks like I'm matching some sephardic people from greece, turkey, bosnia etc. Would they be related to Sephardic people in Holland since they're less genetically distinct as ashkenazi? I do have a bunch of distant Puerto rican matches though and a handful of brazilian matches and i bet dutch jews went there

alright so i checked the triangulation, and basically we match on multiple segments (one of which looks kind of big relatively). A bunch of the Ashkenazi ones match on the shorter segment. 12 people, like 8 of which seem to be ashenazi

Do you match these segments or does your parent with the Valencian story or both?

As for phenotype, trust me, that has too much variance. It's not trustworthy to gauge DNA results. There is a thread on 23andMe and location matches - it's not clear how they currently do it. Does it still show Poland or Warsaw as a location? What are the current 23andMe results and what does she get on the Beta?

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 07:32 AM
Do you match these segments or does your parent with the Valencian story or both?

As for phenotype, trust me, that has too much variance. It's not trustworthy to gauge DNA results. There is a thread on 23andMe and location matches - it's not clear how they currently do it. Does it still show Poland or Warsaw as a location? What are the current 23andMe results and what does she get on the Beta?

true. I'm confused all the time by latino people as latino in my town. Been literally told " I could have sworn I've seen your face in my small town" or been assumingly approached in Spanish. Especially by cubans, dominicans, puerto ricans, or argentinians. It's actually kind of fascinating because I have no idea why. On the other hand, my sister is a ginger and has a completely different phenotype and this never happens to her. You'd probably not guess we'd look pretty similar on paper

I heard that it's crowdsourced from the people you match with who list all 4 of their grandparents as from the same region. It shows Masovian Voivodeship, Poland and Lviv, Ukraine as recent locations with beta switched on. I'd have to ask her about the previous results, but I think it was also eastern european with perhaps a bit less detail. At 90% confidence I think it was like 91% Jewish, 3% Eastern European, the rest broadly european and unassigned. Did you test on 23andme btw? Which Jewish group do you identify with?

StillWater
08-11-2019, 07:40 AM
true. I'm confused all the time by latino people as latino in my town. Been literally told " I could have sworn I've seen your face in my small town" or been assumingly approached in Spanish. Especially by cubans, dominicans, puerto ricans, or argentinians. It's actually kind of fascinating because I have no idea why. On the other hand, my sister is a ginger and has a completely different phenotype and this never happens to her. You'd probably not guess we'd look pretty similar on paper

I heard that it's crowdsourced from the people you match with who list all 4 of their grandparents as from the same region. It shows Masovian Voivodeship, Poland and Lviv, Ukraine as recent locations with beta switched on. I'd have to ask her about the previous results, but I think it was also eastern european with perhaps a bit less detail. At 90% confidence I think it was like 91% Jewish, 3% Eastern European, the rest broadly european and unassigned. Did you test on 23andme btw? Which Jewish group do you identify with?

I tested with AncestryDNA. I'm Ashkenazi.

Does your mom get East European matches with no Ashkenazi? A few, some , a lot?

passenger
08-11-2019, 03:45 PM
i took out the slavic thing cuz it's not relevant to the thread but it's because she got some recent ancestor locations on 23andme. She always thought her grandpa from warsaw looked slavic, ad then she got her results back, and the top location match was where warsaw was hah (anecdotal, but funny)

That theory is certainly possible, though it looks like I'm matching some sephardic people from greece, turkey, bosnia etc. Would they be related to Sephardic people in Holland since they're less genetically distinct as ashkenazi? I do have a bunch of distant Puerto rican matches though and a handful of brazilian matches and i bet dutch jews went there

alright so i checked the triangulation, and basically we match on multiple segments (one of which looks kind of big relatively). A bunch of the Ashkenazi ones match on the shorter segment. 12 people, like 8 of which seem to be ashenazi

My background is in history, not genetics, so I'm not sure how this would bear out in genetic studies, but my hunch is that the Latin American connection to Western Jewish groups has to do with the degree of fluidity between the Western Sephardic, North African and Eastern Sephardic zones, with connections to Eastern Europe and the Atlantic world, which Jonathan Ray writes about in this article https://www.jstor.org/stable/41163962?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

I wouldn't be surprised if Western Sephardim (the so-called "Spanish and Portuguese Jews") turned out to be a big key in all of this, though probably not the only key.

curiousDNAguy12
08-11-2019, 07:54 PM
I tested with AncestryDNA. I'm Ashkenazi.

Does your mom get East European matches with no Ashkanazi? A few, some , a lot?

I'd say some/a decent amount, but not A LOT - probably like 40 +, or 50+ if you include northwestern europe (where the rest of her non-jewish matches come from).

Non-jewish matches/0% Ashkenazi (not even 1%) for my mom in eastern + NW europe:

Russia: 8 + another 6 that are unclear (shows up as recent ancestor locatin on 23andme)

Poland: 8 (shows up as recent ancestor location on 23andme)

Netherlands: 7

Ukraine: 6 (shows up as recent ancestor location on 23andme)

Denmark: 4

Germany: 3

Austria, Czech republic, Hungary, Lithuania, Norway: 2 per country

Latvia: 1

Belarus: 1

Balkans (for ref): 0 except 1 sephardic match in bulgaria

Spain (for ref): 0

Italy (for ref): 0

Mysterious Mexico + Argentina (but no where else in Latin America like my dad): 3

What about your results?

Claudio
08-11-2019, 09:18 PM
I found these posted on another forum.

Kit Number: Z450466
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4950

Kit Number: Z447097
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4953

Kit Number: Z737762
Name: SephardiJewTurkey4955

Kit Number: Z019906
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5033

Kit Number: Z859869
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5075

Kit Number: Z416293
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5832

Kit Number: Z923259
Name: SephardiJewTurkey5877

Kit Number: Z155123
Name: SephardiJewTurkey6077

At 7cm default setting My mum shares a segment with kit Z447097
32360

Quite surprising as she only comes up 18/19% Ashkenazi on AncestryDNA & 23andMe lol

StillWater
08-11-2019, 10:41 PM
I'd say some/a decent amount, but not A LOT - probably like 40 +, or 50+ if you include northwestern europe (where the rest of her non-jewish matches come from).

Non-jewish matches/0% Ashkenazi (not even 1%) for my mom in eastern + NW europe:

Russia: 8 + another 6 that are unclear (shows up as recent ancestor locatin on 23andme)

Poland: 8 (shows up as recent ancestor location on 23andme)

Netherlands: 7

Ukraine: 6 (shows up as recent ancestor location on 23andme)

Denmark: 4

Germany: 3

Austria, Czech republic, Hungary, Lithuania, Norway: 2 per country

Latvia: 1

Belarus: 1

Balkans (for ref): 0 except 1 sephardic match in bulgaria

Spain (for ref): 0

Italy (for ref): 0

Mysterious Mexico + Argentina (but no where else in Latin America like my dad): 3

What about your results?

Haven't seen any East Euro matches on AncestryDNA. On MyHeritage, I was able to find about 4 distant cousin matches that seemed like Poles living in Germany and 1 distant Romanian. However, all the mutual cousin matches between myself and them are Jews. I suggest you check who the mutual cousin matches are. 23andMe, as other sites, smoothes out isolated segments. And 23andMe is more notorious for this, seemingly aiming to get the least false positives at the expense of more false negatives. Thus, small, isolated Ashkenazi etc segments are assigned to other , typically more general categories.

curiousDNAguy12
08-12-2019, 02:55 AM
Haven't seen any East Euro matches on AncestryDNA. On MyHeritage, I was able to find about 4 distant cousin matches that seemed like Poles living in Germany and 1 distant Romanian. However, all the mutual cousin matches between myself and them are Jews. I suggest you check who the mutual cousin matches are. 23andMe, as other sites, smoothes out isolated segments. And 23andMe is more notorious for this, seemingly aiming to get the least false positives at the expense of more false negatives. Thus, small, isolated Ashkenazi etc segments are assigned to other , typically more general categories.

That's nteresting, I'll look into that. Just from this though she has a lot more northeastern european and polish distant cousins with no Ashkenazi than my dad (relatively).

On the other hand, he has ~40+ Puerto Rican matches on Ancestry I stopped counting, 10 (what seem like sephardic) matches from Italy (vs. my mom none), 3 spanish matches (my mom none), 3 brazilians (my mom none), 3 hondurans and panamanians (my mom none), 4 nicaraguans (my mom none), 2 salvadorians (my mom none) etc

My dad seems to be shifted "south" and my mom "northeast" in terms of matches across different sites/based on recent ancestors locations on 23andme but I can't really draw any conclusions at the end of the day since i don't have any documentation for either but it's interesting to see

Edit: the only chromosome I've been able to see an overlap on in terms of matches was the one I mentioned earlier (the Spanish guy, the Mexican woman, and the Sephardic guy)

StillWater
08-12-2019, 04:14 AM
I match a Moroccan Jew on AncestryDNA with no shared matches. Weird.

curiousDNAguy12
08-13-2019, 01:03 AM
I suggest you check who the mutual cousin matches are. 23andMe, as other sites, smoothes out isolated segments.

was able to look at what you were recommending btw, and I've found a few interesting ones so far

32380 32381

first is a guy who told me as far as he knows, his family went from spain, to turkey to israel + 2 latinas
second is a Tunisian Jew, a turkish sephardic jew (I think - I forgot where it said he was from) and a Portuguese-Canadian

curiousDNAguy12
08-13-2019, 01:04 AM
I suggest you check who the mutual cousin matches are. 23andMe, as other sites, smoothes out isolated segments.

was able to look at what you were recommending btw, and I've found a few interesting ones so far

32380 32381

- first is a guy who told me as far as he knows, his family went from spain, to turkey to israel + 1 Latinas (roots in Sonora, Northern Mexico) The other I really can't tell but she's definitely not any jewish...she almost seems like indian and/or part filipino from goa or where the spanish or portuguese were
- second is a Tunisian/Italian Jew, a Turkish Jew (I think) and a Portuguese-Canadian (Viseu, Northern Portugal)

StillWater
08-13-2019, 01:21 AM
was able to look at what you were recommending btw, and I've found a few interesting ones so far

32380 32381

- first is a guy who told me as far as he knows, his family went from spain, to turkey to israel + 2 Latinas (1 has roots in Sonora, Northern Mexico; the other unclear)
- second is a Tunisian/Italian Jew, a Turkish Jew (I think) and a Portuguese-Canadian (Viseu, Northern Portugal)

Yeah dude, your family wasn't making this up - should trust them more.

curiousDNAguy12
08-15-2019, 01:47 AM
if only i could trace it...

passenger
08-15-2019, 02:23 AM
if only i could trace it...

Join the club! Genetics will only tell you so much. Genealogy helps, but it's pretty time-consuming and not easy. Has anyone in your family done work on your family tree?

curiousDNAguy12
08-15-2019, 10:28 PM
Join the club! Genetics will only tell you so much. Genealogy helps, but it's pretty time-consuming and not easy. Has anyone in your family done work on your family tree?

Forreal! My standing hypothesis is that some went directly from Spain or Portugal to where they were invited in Eastern Europe, whereas some fled to Greece/Turkey and then moved up into Budapest from the Ottoman Empire, and then were expelled and had to go east (based on some loose, possible genealogical connections). I also checked my dad's cousins last night (haven't checked for triangulations yet) but there are a TON of turkish jews as cousins. Even North African sephardics, but a ton from Ottoman areas, so I'm thinking it's an Ottoman connection.

I also read somewhere on one of the sites you guys sent me that some Sephardic Jews went to Tarnopil. Who knows...

StillWater
08-16-2019, 02:21 AM
Forreal! My standing hypothesis is that some went directly from Spain or Portugal to where they were invited in Eastern Europe, whereas some fled to Greece/Turkey and then moved up into Budapest from the Ottoman Empire, and then were expelled and had to go east (based on some loose, possible genealogical connections). I also checked my dad's cousins last night (haven't checked for triangulations yet) but there are a TON of turkish jews as cousins. Even North African sephardics, but a ton from Ottoman areas, so I'm thinking it's an Ottoman connection.

I also read somewhere on one of the sites you guys sent me that some Sephardic Jews went to Tarnopil. Who knows...

You're focusing too much on one city. They likely didn't move directly there and Jews often married Jews from other cities.

curiousDNAguy12
08-16-2019, 10:29 PM
Yeah truth is no one will know, but i did see a possible lineage that was spain (expelled) - salonika + constantinople + pera - galanta + budapest (expelled) - ukraine (though not sure where, may have even seen Lviv somewhere)

mildlycurly
08-30-2019, 12:14 AM
At 7cm default setting My mum shares a segment with kit Z447097
32360

Quite surprising as she only comes up 18/19% Ashkenazi on AncestryDNA & 23andMe lol

I share segments with all except Z019906. In fact, I share more segments with these than some Ashkenazim I match with.

Seabass
09-05-2019, 02:53 PM
So my mum got the the BETA 5.2 update. Attached are her new European and Middle Eastern percentages. Overall MENA decreased but Levantine increased. I'll try sumarise below what's happened since the last update:

Italian almost + 5% (matches in Calabria and Sicily)
Spanish and Portuguese + 2%
Broadly Southern European - 1%
Ashkenazi Jewish + 2%
Broadly European - 1.6%
Greek & Balkan 0.3 disappeared
NW European 0.1 noise gone

Levantine + 5.9%
Coptic Egyptian (0.1 noise?) disappeared
Broadly Arab, Egyptian and Levantine - 4.2%
Anatolian + 2.6%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian is new + 2.5%
Cypriot drastically down - 3.7%
Broadly Northern West Asian - 4.7%
North African (Morocco match) + 0.5%
Broadly Western Asian & North African - 5%
Broadly Central & South Asian + 0.1% (distant Eastern Mizrahi?)
Sub-Saharan African new at + 0.1% (maybe noise though, or not)

3293032931

passenger
09-05-2019, 08:13 PM
So my mum got the the BETA 5.2 update. Attached are her new European and Middle Eastern percentages. Overall MENA decreased but Levantine increased. I'll try sumarise below what's happened since the last update:

Italian almost + 5% (matches in Calabria and Sicily)
Spanish and Portuguese + 2%
Broadly Southern European - 1%
Ashkenazi Jewish + 2%
Broadly European - 1.6%
Greek & Balkan 0.3 disappeared
NW European 0.1 noise gone

Levantine + 5.9%
Coptic Egyptian (0.1 noise?) disappeared
Broadly Arab, Egyptian and Levantine - 4.2%
Anatolian + 2.6%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian is new + 2.5%
Cypriot drastically down - 3.7%
Broadly Northern West Asian - 4.7%
North African (Morocco match) + 0.5%
Broadly Western Asian & North African - 5%
Broadly Central & South Asian + 0.1% (distant Eastern Mizrahi?)
Sub-Saharan African new at + 0.1% (maybe noise though, or not)

3293032931

Interesting! That's a lot of broadly West Asian and North African though. Kind of annoying.

Claudio
09-06-2019, 01:05 PM
So my mum got the the BETA 5.2 update. Attached are her new European and Middle Eastern percentages. Overall MENA decreased but Levantine increased. I'll try sumarise below what's happened since the last update:

Italian almost + 5% (matches in Calabria and Sicily)
Spanish and Portuguese + 2%
Broadly Southern European - 1%
Ashkenazi Jewish + 2%
Broadly European - 1.6%
Greek & Balkan 0.3 disappeared
NW European 0.1 noise gone

Levantine + 5.9%
Coptic Egyptian (0.1 noise?) disappeared
Broadly Arab, Egyptian and Levantine - 4.2%
Anatolian + 2.6%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian is new + 2.5%
Cypriot drastically down - 3.7%
Broadly Northern West Asian - 4.7%
North African (Morocco match) + 0.5%
Broadly Western Asian & North African - 5%
Broadly Central & South Asian + 0.1% (distant Eastern Mizrahi?)
Sub-Saharan African new at + 0.1% (maybe noise though, or not)

3293032931

BTW there was a second update around a week ago,I only received couple days ago,my Italian went back up to nearer previous levels but still about 5% less than prior to Beta.
But look how my MENA has changed from original BETA to update in last couple of days.
Virtually all Anatolian now:
32962

Seabass
09-06-2019, 01:19 PM
BTW there was a second update around a week ago,I only received couple days ago,my Italian went back up to nearer previous levels but still about 5% less than prior to Beta.
But look how my MENA has changed from original BETA to update in last couple of days.
Virtually all Anatolian now:


Yeah it's peculiar that the 'Anatolian' has suddenly been bumped up quite a lot for us. From what I understand 23andme were using Muslim Turks from Western sect of Turkey as a proxy for 'Anatolian'. Not in my opinion entirely ideal, so it makes me wonder if they have shifted something within the reference list they are using or what not?

Your MENA increased and my mum's decreased, but at least the unassigned and 'broad' scores are decreasing.

Claudio
09-06-2019, 01:29 PM
You're focusing too much on one city. They likely didn't move directly there and Jews often married Jews from other cities.

Hey Stillwater,you might find this funny and kinda Ironic.
I was on my yearly trip to Amsterdam all last week up to no good :biggrin1:
But I always take an obligatory trip to the Jewish Quarter and visit the Market,Museums and Portuguese Sephardic and Ashkenazi Synagogues etc but also plan my yearly trip to coencide with Comic-con Amsterdam.
Anyway guess who was there this year :laugh:
32963
He wasn’t looking very Immortal when I spoke to him,I think he will be experiencing the quickening sooner rather than later ;)

Claudio
09-06-2019, 01:38 PM
Yeah it's peculiar that the 'Anatolian' has suddenly been bumped up quite a lot for us. From what I understand 23andme were using Muslim Turks from Western sect of Turkey as a proxy for 'Anatolian'. Not in my opinion entirely ideal, so it makes me wonder if they have shifted something within the reference list they are using or what not?

Your MENA increased and my mum's decreased, but at least the unassigned and 'broad' scores are decreasing.

To be fair my results even prior to Beta would Yo Yo up and down every minor update/algorithm change for instance prior to Beta I actually scored 0% MENA all ancient MENA being caught in Italian or/and Ashkenazi catergories.
I won’t be surprised if my MENA mostly disappears within an update or two as 5% Anatolian with No Turkish DNA relatives or Ancestor location in West Asia makes me think its more ancient Admixture within older Italian Admixture.

Seabass
09-10-2019, 09:11 AM
Interesting results of a Sephardic Jew from Cairo, Egypt. All four grandparents from Cairo too, which was once home to a significant number of Karaite Jews whereas Alexandria mostly housed Sephardic emigrees from Turkey, Italy, Syria and Greece. He can trace ancestry going further back to Turkey but I'd say definitely scores a little subtly different to Eastern Sephardic Jews. See for yourself below. Whatever I find interesting I bold.

Eurogenes K13


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 39.48
2 West_Med 17.23
3 West_Asian 16.14
4 North_Atlantic 9.35
5 Red_Sea 7.94
6 Baltic 5.48
7 Northeast_African 2.33
8 South_Asian 1.11
9 East_Asian 0.59
10 Sub-Saharan 0.31
11 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Cyprian 6.49
2 Tunisian_Jewish 6.86
3 Libyan_Jewish 7.77
4 Sephardic_Jewish 7.83
5 Algerian_Jewish 8.36
6 Italian_Jewish 8.46
7 Lebanese_Muslim 9.24
8 Ashkenazi 9.7
9 Syrian 10.88
10 South_Italian 11.03
11 Samaritan 11.26
12 East_Sicilian 11.66
13 Lebanese_Druze 12.28
14 Lebanese_Christian 12.33
15 Palestinian 12.64
16 Jordanian 12.68
17 Central_Greek 12.93
18 West_Sicilian 15.78
19 Italian_Abruzzo 16.16
20 Bedouin 16.93

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.2% Ashkenazi + 43.8% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.21
2 51.3% East_Sicilian + 48.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.62
3 51.5% East_Sicilian + 48.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.63
4 54% Ashkenazi + 46% Samaritan @ 2.63
5 51.3% Lebanese_Muslim + 48.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.68
6 60.7% Lebanese_Christian + 39.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.83
7 61.5% Cyprian + 38.5% Ashkenazi @ 2.95
8 63.1% Samaritan + 36.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.02
9 56.5% Lebanese_Christian + 43.5% West_Sicilian @ 3.07
10 51% Samaritan + 49% East_Sicilian @ 3.09
11 53.7% Samaritan + 46.3% Central_Greek @ 3.1
12 51.3% Lebanese_Christian + 48.7% Central_Greek @ 3.23
13 70.9% Lebanese_Christian + 29.1% North_Italian @ 3.31
14 65.3% Lebanese_Christian + 34.7% Tuscan @ 3.32
15 59.5% Samaritan + 40.5% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.34
16 56.5% Ashkenazi + 43.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.4
17 68.6% Algerian_Jewish + 31.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.44
18 52.6% Italian_Jewish + 47.4% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.49
19 53% South_Italian + 47% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.53
20 57.2% Lebanese_Christian + 42.8% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.54


MDLP K23b


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.93
2 European_Early_Farmers 19.62
3 Near_East 14.19
4 South_Central_Asian 10.6
5 North_African 9.58
6 European_Hunters_Gatherers 4.07
7 East_African 3.31
8 Austronesian 1.14
9 Ancestral_Altaic 1.08
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.32
11 Archaic_Human 0.16

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sephardic_Jew ( ) 6.09
2 Turk_Jew ( ) 6.9
3 Moroccan_Jew ( ) 7.49
4 French_Jew ( ) 8.06
5 Italian_Jew ( ) 8.14
6 Ashkenazi_Jew ( ) 8.35
7 Syrian_Jew ( ) 8.36
8 Sicilian_West ( ) 8.41
9 Sicilian_Agrigento ( ) 8.74
10 Maltese ( ) 9.54
11 Sicilian_East ( ) 9.59
12 Tunisian_Jew ( ) 9.67
13 Libyan_Jew ( ) 9.96
14 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 10.39
15 Sicilian_Siracusa ( ) 10.43
16 Cretan ( ) 10.82
17 Ashkenazi ( ) 11.3
18 Turk_Balikesir ( ) 11.49
19 Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) 12.06
20 Romanian_Jew ( ) 12.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.3% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 18.7% Ain_Touta_WGA ( ) @ 2.78
2 75.8% French_Jew ( ) + 24.2% Ain_Touta_WGA ( ) @ 2.91
3 84.6% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 15.4% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 3
4 78.3% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 21.7% Kurd ( ) @ 3.02
5 76.1% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 23.9% Kurd_North ( ) @ 3.07
6 82.7% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 17.3% Portugese ( ) @ 3.15
7 77.7% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 22.3% Kurd_East ( ) @ 3.21
8 77.1% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 22.9% Azeri ( ) @ 3.24
9 85.1% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 14.9% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 3.29
10 76.7% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 23.3% Kurd_South ( ) @ 3.3
11 84.6% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 15.4% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 3.34
12 84.9% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 15.1% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 3.35
13 84.9% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 15.1% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 3.36
14 80.5% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 19.5% Baku_WGA ( ) @ 3.38
15 78.8% Moroccan_Jew ( ) + 21.2% Uzbek_Tashkent ( ) @ 3.45
16 65.7% Iraqi_Jew ( ) + 34.3% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 3.45
17 85.5% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 14.5% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 3.46
18 84.1% Sephardic_Jew ( ) + 15.9% Iranian ( ) @ 3.49
19 86.5% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 13.5% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 3.52
20 86.9% Syrian_Jew ( ) + 13.1% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) @ 3.52

Eurogenes K36


Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 6.35 Pct
Armenian 5.00 Pct
Basque 2.33 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.73 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 20.80 Pct
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French 1.16 Pct
Iberian 8.45 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 10.89 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 22.55 Pct
North_African 4.84 Pct
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 3.12 Pct
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.08 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.24 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.38 Pct
West_Med 3.08 Pct

passenger
09-15-2019, 03:20 PM
FYI, I just came across a website in French with some great maps and a few figures related particularly to the Sephardic diaspora, and also the Jewish diaspora more generally. https://www.les-crises.fr/les-dispersions-du-peuple-juif/

They list some figures for the early Sephardic diaspora which seem reasonable, but I'm pretty sure the figures for "la dispersion des juifs de la péninsule ibérique" refer to numbers of refugees over multiple decades post-1492, and not just in the immediate aftermath of the expulsion.

mildlycurly
09-15-2019, 05:27 PM
FYI, I just came across a website in French with some great maps and a few figures related particularly to the Sephardic diaspora, and also the Jewish diaspora more generally. https://www.les-crises.fr/les-dispersions-du-peuple-juif/

They list some figures for the early Sephardic diaspora which seem reasonable, but I'm pretty sure the figures for "la dispersion des juifs de la péninsule ibérique" refer to numbers of refugees over multiple decades post-1492, and not just in the immediate aftermath of the expulsion.

I like the total Jewish population diagrams at the end.

I think there are several reasons for the Jewish population exploding between 1750 and 1939:

- As the Orthodox became more feverent in response to modernity, their birthrate increased. Even now, the ultra-Orthodox birthrate is far higher than other Jews, even centrist Orthodox.
- The emancipation of the Jews led many to retain Judaism as a religion or culture and not convert to Christianity in order to increase their social standing. Despite the warnings of the Orthodox which persist today, many Reform families kept their children in the faith.
- The acceptance of intermarriage and the products of intermarriage as Jews. This dates back to Napoleon's Grand Sanhedrin in the early 1800s where the rabbis decreed that intermarriage with a Christian or Muslim (male or female) was permitted if the laws of the land allowed for the children to be raised Jewish. Up until then, only the children of a Jewish mother were considered Jewish; the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother were universally considered to be gentiles. Of course, some communities such as the Karaites accepted unbroken patrilineal descent but that's a matter for another day.
- Increased conversion. Conversion to Judaism still had a major stigma in Christian communities, but the increased social acceptability of the Jews, the relaxation of conversion standards on the part of the Reform, and the gradual acceptance of conversion for marriage in many communities led to more people joining the faith.

StillWater
09-15-2019, 09:35 PM
Hey Stillwater,you might find this funny and kinda Ironic.
I was on my yearly trip to Amsterdam all last week up to no good :biggrin1:
But I always take an obligatory trip to the Jewish Quarter and visit the Market,Museums and Portuguese Sephardic and Ashkenazi Synagogues etc but also plan my yearly trip to coencide with Comic-con Amsterdam.
Anyway guess who was there this year :laugh:
32963
He wasn’t looking very Immortal when I spoke to him,I think he will be experiencing the quickening sooner rather than later ;)

Yet, you didn't challenge him to a duel.

Claudio
09-15-2019, 10:02 PM
Yet, you didn't challenge him to a duel.

:fencing:
:laugh:

He was looking seriously old I hardly recognized him,he has vision problems and had a helper with him (I later found through Wikipedia that he has had sight problems for years going back to Highlander days) He’s blind as a bat lol
I leaned across desk at Comic-con and whispered “it’s a kind of magic” he looked around and laughed :biggrin1:

StillWater
09-15-2019, 10:03 PM
:fencing:
:laugh:

He was looking seriously old I hardly recognized him,he has vision problems and had a helper with him (I later found through Wikipedia that he has had sight problems for years going back to Highlander days) He’s blind as a bat lol
I leaned across desk at Comic-con and whispered “it’s a kind of magic” he looked around and laughed :biggrin1:

Dude, you shouldn't speak that way of a legend.

passenger
09-15-2019, 10:06 PM
I like the total Jewish population diagrams at the end.

I think there are several reasons for the Jewish population exploding between 1750 and 1939:

- As the Orthodox became more feverent in response to modernity, their birthrate increased. Even now, the ultra-Orthodox birthrate is far higher than other Jews, even centrist Orthodox.
- The emancipation of the Jews led many to retain Judaism as a religion or culture and not convert to Christianity in order to increase their social standing. Despite the warnings of the Orthodox which persist today, many Reform families kept their children in the faith.
- The acceptance of intermarriage and the products of intermarriage as Jews. This dates back to Napoleon's Grand Sanhedrin in the early 1800s where the rabbis decreed that intermarriage with a Christian or Muslim (male or female) was permitted if the laws of the land allowed for the children to be raised Jewish. Up until then, only the children of a Jewish mother were considered Jewish; the children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother were universally considered to be gentiles. Of course, some communities such as the Karaites accepted unbroken patrilineal descent but that's a matter for another day.
- Increased conversion. Conversion to Judaism still had a major stigma in Christian communities, but the increased social acceptability of the Jews, the relaxation of conversion standards on the part of the Reform, and the gradual acceptance of conversion for marriage in many communities led to more people joining the faith.

All of this may be relevant, but I think the much simpler explanation is that the Jewish population increased for the same reasons that the world population, particularly the European population, massively increased, i.e. rapid industrialization and an improved diet due to the expansion of food crops like the potato.

Claudio
09-15-2019, 10:26 PM
Dude, you shouldn't speak that way of a legend.

Least he got a giggle out of my “it’s a kind of Magic” Highlander reference :biggrin1:

Seabass
09-17-2019, 01:30 PM
Thought I'd show you a comparison between a Sephardic Jew from Rhodes, Greece and my mum, Sephardic from Turkey (Istanbul, Izmir). The results are very similar, except the Greek Jew scores less Italian and more Iberian and North African. I should add that the person who manages this Greek Jews account claims this person also has Romaniote and Mizrahi ancestry, but IMO it's probably about the same as most other Eastern Sephardic Jews (at least the Romaniote link)

The results are pretty similar otherwise! Possibly there is less variation among Eastern Sephardim than Maghrebi Sephardim.

3323633237

3323833239

Edit: predicted 4th cousins with each other

Sikeliot
09-17-2019, 01:34 PM
Thought I'd show you a comparison between a Sephardic Jew from Greece, Rhodes and my mum, Sephardic from Turkey (Istanbul, Izmir). The results are very similar, except the Greek Jew scores less Italian and more Iberian and North African. I should add that the person who manages this Greek Jews account claims this person also has Romaniote and Mizrahi ancestry, but IMO it's probably about the same as most other Eastern Sephardic Jews (at least the Romaniote link)

The results are pretty similar otherwise! Possibly there is less variation among Eastern Sephardim than Maghrebi Sephardim.

3323633237

3323833239


Matches with Calabria probably have to do with assimilated Sephardim in the region, as conversions were common and documented.

When you say they are Sephardic do you mean some of their ancestors came from Iberia or North Africa to Greece? Aren't Romaniotes also considered to be Sephardim?

Seabass
09-17-2019, 01:43 PM
Matches with Calabria probably have to do with assimilated Sephardim in the region, as conversions were common and documented.

I would imagine that would reflect more likely the absorption of Sephardic Jews among Sicilians that might have then moved northwards towards Calabria over the next 500 years. I'm also open to the idea there may be trace amounts of real genuine Southern Italian ancestry among Italian Jews that settled into predominantly Sephardic communities in Greek and Turkey maybe.


When you say they are Sephardic do you mean some of their ancestors came from Iberia or North Africa to Greece? Aren't Romaniotes also considered to be Sephardim?

I mean that they ethnically identify as Sephardic and culturally are 'Sephardic' irrespective whether they may have many Jewish, Arabic, Italian, Ashkenazi and Greek sounding surnames other than Spanish. This is a common peculiarity for Turkish Jews who spoke Ladino a Judeo-Spanish language. Romaniotes are a different Jewish ethnic group who spoke Yevanic and Judeo-Greek language. Perhaps to a lesser extent there are Romaniotes who may have some recent descent from Sephardic Jews too. They became culturally predominated over in Turkey and Greece over time by Sephardic Jewry and much of the surviving population in Greece were wiped out by the holocaust sadly. I think 90+ percent of Greek Jewry or a ridiculous figure like that!

passenger
09-17-2019, 01:47 PM
Thought I'd show you a comparison between a Sephardic Jew from Greece, Rhodes and my mum, Sephardic from Turkey (Istanbul, Izmir). The results are very similar, except the Greek Jew scores less Italian and more Iberian and North African. I should add that the person who manages this Greek Jews account claims this person also has Romaniote and Mizrahi ancestry, but IMO it's probably about the same as most other Eastern Sephardic Jews (at least the Romaniote link)

The results are pretty similar otherwise! Possibly there is less variation among Eastern Sephardim than Maghrebi Sephardim.

3323633237

3323833239

The breakdown seems pretty similar to what I've seen from my Eastern Sephardic MyHeritage matches. I also noticed a somewhat higher Iberian percentage among Greek Jews than among Turkish Jews for some reason.

Sikeliot
09-17-2019, 01:57 PM
I would imagine that would reflect more likely the absorption of Sephardic Jews among Sicilians that might have then moved northwards towards Calabria over the next 500 years. I'm also open to the idea there may be trace amounts of real genuine Southern Italian ancestry among Italian Jews that settled into predominantly Sephardic communities in Greek and Turkey maybe.

I actually personally know some Sicilians who know of converted Sephardi ancestry, they tend to live either in and around Agrigento or in the Madonie mountain range of north central Sicily.

Not sure if people moved from there to Calabria or not, but I always thought Calabria had at one point the largest Jewish population in Italy, exceeding that of Sicily. I could be wrong.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Sicily-mountains-map-bjs.jpg

Sikeliot
09-17-2019, 01:58 PM
The breakdown seems pretty similar to what I've seen from my Eastern Sephardic MyHeritage matches. I also noticed a somewhat higher Iberian percentage among Greek Jews than among Turkish Jews for some reason.

Why would this be? Most expelled Jews from Iberia ended up in Turkey or North Africa, not in Greece.

Seabass
09-17-2019, 02:10 PM
Why would this be? Most expelled Jews from Iberia ended up in Turkey or North Africa, not in Greece.

I think Greece's Jewish population for the last couple of centuries was probably predominantly Sephardic. Many Sephardic Jews particularly settled in Salonika. Salonika the city at one point had over 60% of its inhabitants being Jews. I believe especially many Izmiri Jews in Turkey have recent genealogical links to Salonika, Turkey. Salonika did have a pretty large Muslim population over the Ottoman empire too.

hartaisarlag
09-17-2019, 02:33 PM
I actually personally know some Sicilians who know of converted Sephardi ancestry, they tend to live either in and around Agrigento or in the Madonie mountain range of north central Sicily.

Not sure if people moved from there to Calabria or not, but I always thought Calabria had at one point the largest Jewish population in Italy, exceeding that of Sicily. I could be wrong.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Sicily-mountains-map-bjs.jpg

Say more about the Agrigento area. There is a likely member of the Sephardic/North African Jewish branch of my Y-subclade who is Sicilian-American with a deep pedigree in Sciacca.

StillWater
09-17-2019, 05:46 PM
The breakdown seems pretty similar to what I've seen from my Eastern Sephardic MyHeritage matches. I also noticed a somewhat higher Iberian percentage among Greek Jews than among Turkish Jews for some reason.

Greek Sephardim are Eastern Sephardim. The substructure among Eastern Sephardim is interesting though.

passenger
09-17-2019, 07:43 PM
Greek Sephardim are Eastern Sephardim. The substructure among Eastern Sephardim is interesting though.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was grouping Greek and Turkish Sephardim together, just pointing out that among the Eastern Sephardic matches I have, the Greek ones tend to have higher Iberian percentages for some reason.

passenger
09-17-2019, 07:51 PM
I think Greece's Jewish population for the last couple of centuries was probably predominantly Sephardic. Many Sephardic Jews particularly settled in Salonika. Salonika the city at one point had over 60% of its inhabitants being Jews. I believe especially many Izmiri Jews in Turkey have recent genealogical links to Salonika, Turkey. Salonika did have a pretty large Muslim population over the Ottoman empire too.

Yes, as I've mentioned previously in this thread, and I believe you've mentioned elsewhere, Sephardim tended to constitute a majority of the Jewish population in a number of locations in the Ottoman Empire, including in Greece. This happened in part because the Ottomans forced many of the pre-existing Jewish communities (mainly Romaniotes) to relocate to Istanbul after conquest. Although there were of course still Romaniotes in Greece I would guess this might have played a role. It could be that the fact that Sephardim did not constitute a significant majority in places like Istanbul means that some Turkish Jewish admixtures more greatly reflect Romaniote (and Italki) heritage, as opposed to Iberian Jewish. Then again, we would have to suppose that Jews remained static within the Empire, and surely there was a lot of movement, such as you mentioned between Salonika and Izmir/Smyrna.

DR2001
09-17-2019, 11:18 PM
Thought I'd show you a comparison between a Sephardic Jew from Rhodes, Greece and my mum, Sephardic from Turkey (Istanbul, Izmir). The results are very similar, except the Greek Jew scores less Italian and more Iberian and North African. I should add that the person who manages this Greek Jews account claims this person also has Romaniote and Mizrahi ancestry, but IMO it's probably about the same as most other Eastern Sephardic Jews (at least the Romaniote link)

The results are pretty similar otherwise! Possibly there is less variation among Eastern Sephardim than Maghrebi Sephardim.

3323633237

3323833239

Edit: predicted 4th cousins with each other

Can you post 23andme results of other Balkan Sephardim (Yugoslavia and Bulgaria included) and (if you have) Romaniotes.
I am interested.

Seabass
09-18-2019, 10:12 AM
Can you post 23andme results of other Balkan Sephardim (Yugoslavia and Bulgaria included) and (if you have) Romaniotes.
I am interested.

Bad news is I so far havn't found any more BETA results available for Eastern Sephardim, so so far I've just managed to share one for a Sephardic Jew from Turkey and a Sephardic Jew from Greece.

Slightly good news is I may be the first on this forum to post ancestry composition results of a Jew with all four grandparents from Ioannina, Greece, so very highly likely to be a Romaniote. Unfortunately these aren't BETA results and I was only lucky I could get a glimpse of her results through my mums account since she is estimated to be 4th cousin.

If you look below, to the left is my mum, to the right is the Romaniote. Surprised to see some Iberian and that's a relatively large 'Ashkenazi' score still considering some Libyan/Tunisian Jews can considerably lack it. Reminder again the below are not BETA results.

33255

DR2001
09-18-2019, 11:11 AM
Bad news is I so far havn't found any more BETA results available for Eastern Sephardim, so so far I've just managed to share one for a Sephardic Jew from Turkey and a Sephardic Jew from Greece.

Slightly good news is I may be the first on this forum to post ancestry composition results of a Jew with all four grandparents from Ioannina, Greece, so very highly likely to be a Romaniote. Unfortunately these aren't BETA results and I was only lucky I could get a glimpse of her results through my mums account since she is estimated to be 4th cousin.

If you look below, to the left is my mum, to the right is the Romaniote. Surprised to see some Iberian and that's a relatively large 'Ashkenazi' score still considering some Libyan/Tunisian Jews can considerably lack it. Reminder again the below are not BETA results.

33255

Do you have results of Jews from yugoslavia? Bulgaria?

Seabass
09-18-2019, 11:17 AM
Do you have results of Jews from yugoslavia? Bulgaria?

Nope, the most promising I had was a Romanian Jew (that might have had some Sephardic) but came out 100% Ashkenazi.

StillWater
09-18-2019, 11:36 AM
Bad news is I so far havn't found any more BETA results available for Eastern Sephardim, so so far I've just managed to share one for a Sephardic Jew from Turkey and a Sephardic Jew from Greece.

Slightly good news is I may be the first on this forum to post ancestry composition results of a Jew with all four grandparents from Ioannina, Greece, so very highly likely to be a Romaniote. Unfortunately these aren't BETA results and I was only lucky I could get a glimpse of her results through my mums account since she is estimated to be 4th cousin.

If you look below, to the left is my mum, to the right is the Romaniote. Surprised to see some Iberian and that's a relatively large 'Ashkenazi' score still considering some Libyan/Tunisian Jews can considerably lack it. Reminder again the below are not BETA results.

33255

Can you check what kind of East Asian the Greek Jew has?

Bleach
09-18-2019, 11:51 AM
Bad news is I so far havn't found any more BETA results available for Eastern Sephardim, so so far I've just managed to share one for a Sephardic Jew from Turkey and a Sephardic Jew from Greece.

Slightly good news is I may be the first on this forum to post ancestry composition results of a Jew with all four grandparents from Ioannina, Greece, so very highly likely to be a Romaniote. Unfortunately these aren't BETA results and I was only lucky I could get a glimpse of her results through my mums account since she is estimated to be 4th cousin.

If you look below, to the left is my mum, to the right is the Romaniote. Surprised to see some Iberian and that's a relatively large 'Ashkenazi' score still considering some Libyan/Tunisian Jews can considerably lack it. Reminder again the below are not BETA results.

33255

I'm almost sure the so called Romaniote/Ioaninna Jews have recent and strong connections with Western Sephardim and Italkim
who immigrated from Italy to Balkans over the last 4 centuries and despite the Yevanic language preservation to the detriment of the ladino.
Incidentally, the G25 Romaniote sample always come out a decent Western Euro ancestry' proportion when a such reference is used in the set ( I pick Collegno ,a very northerner-shifted pop in my exemple for avoiding a potential refutation),while it should not , if Romaniotes were a isolated community dating back to Antiquity

https://i.imgur.com/CfMdPzz.png

Seabass
09-18-2019, 01:56 PM
Can you check what kind of East Asian the Greek Jew has?

0.1% Native American

passenger
09-18-2019, 08:09 PM
I'm almost sure the so called Romaniote/Ioaninna Jews have recent and strong connections with Western Sephardim and Italkim
who immigrated from Italy to Balkans over the last 4 centuries and despite the Yevanic language preservation to the detriment of the ladino.
Incidentally, the G25 Romaniote sample always come out a decent Western Euro ancestry' proportion when a such reference is used in the set ( I pick Collegno ,a very northerner-shifted pop in my exemple for avoiding a potential refutation),while it should not , if Romaniotes were a isolated community dating back to Antiquity

https://i.imgur.com/CfMdPzz.png

I'm also a bit skeptical about the plausibility of using modern Romaniote samples as stand-ins for the pre-Sephardic Romaniote population of the Balkans and Asia Minor. The line between Romaniotes and Sephardim was often a blurry one throughout Ottoman history, being a matter of belonging to a given linguistic community and adhering to one set of liturgical practices versus another, rather than a case of clear-cut ethnic division, and the vast majority of Romaniotes were assimilated into Sephardic society. Ioannina seems to represent a case where the opposite occurred - i.e. a numerically inferior Sephardic population assimilated into the Greek-speaking Romaniote community - so it's quite possible that their admixture was less impacted by the influence of Iberian and Italian Jewry, but certainly not completely isolated from it.

hartaisarlag
09-18-2019, 08:26 PM
I'm almost sure the so called Romaniote/Ioaninna Jews have recent and strong connections with Western Sephardim and Italkim
who immigrated from Italy to Balkans over the last 4 centuries and despite the Yevanic language preservation to the detriment of the ladino.
Incidentally, the G25 Romaniote sample always come out a decent Western Euro ancestry' proportion when a such reference is used in the set ( I pick Collegno ,a very northerner-shifted pop in my exemple for avoiding a potential refutation),while it should not , if Romaniotes were a isolated community dating back to Antiquity

https://i.imgur.com/CfMdPzz.png

Lately I’ve been investigating the absorption of Apulian and Sicilian Jews into the Greek Romaniote community, because a basal branch of one founding Ashkenazi Y-line appears to contain members of a Romaniote family with a surname attested among Apulian Jews in Arta, Greece as early as the 1520s (I haven’t contacted the testers, but the surname also occurs later in Ioannina, Corfu, and Salonika).

Bleach
09-18-2019, 08:54 PM
I'm also a bit skeptical about the plausibility of using modern Romaniote samples as stand-ins for the pre-Sephardic Romaniote population of the Balkans and Asia Minor. The line between Romaniotes and Sephardim was often a blurry one throughout Ottoman history, being a matter of belonging to a given linguistic community and adhering to one set of liturgical practices versus another, rather than a case of clear-cut ethnic division, and the vast majority of Romaniotes were assimilated into Sephardic society. Ioannina seems to represent a case where the opposite occurred - i.e. a numerically inferior Sephardic population assimilated into the Greek-speaking Romaniote community - so it's quite possible that their admixture was less impacted by the influence of Iberian and Italian Jewry, but certainly not completely isolated from it.

I totally second your view.
I'v always though anyway that Sephardim arrival at the 16th century into the eastern Mediteranean bassin strongly disrupted the former ethnic order wherever they had settled (Italy ,Greece, Turkey,Syria,Egypt)
That's why we can't rigorously and in a independant way treat all these samples in the global 25 like Romaniotes , Italkims,Sephardim as if they were endowed major variations between each other.
All of that is actually very artificial

hartaisarlag
09-18-2019, 09:30 PM
And probably much harder to tease apart than Sephardic and pre-Sephardic elements in North African and Syro-Lebanese Jews.

eolien
09-19-2019, 08:40 AM
I totally second your view.
I'v always though anyway that Sephardim arrival at the 16th century into the eastern Mediteranean bassin strongly disrupted the former ethnic order wherever they had settled (Italy ,Greece, Turkey,Syria,Egypt)
That's why we can't rigorously and in a independant way treat all these samples in the global 25 like Romaniotes , Italkims,Sephardim as if they were endowed major variations between each other.
All of that is actually very artificial

I want to correct a misconception that is often voiced in the threads especially about jews. There is no indication whatsoever in the history that the jews from different geographical origins have seen themselves as belonging to different groups. The concept of an 'eda in Israel is a projection of european nationalism by ashkenazim on to the other jews because german jews saw themselves superior to polish jews etc, they also thought there was such an awareness between this and that group. It was also easier to manipulate different groups by dividing them. Hence the distinctions were exaggerated, encouraged, emphasized etc.

There is a mix-up between a liturgy and an ethnic identity, the languages of the jews also becoming something exotic, often propagated by scholars to open for themselves new study fields. Thus according to some members, jews following nusach Romania became an ethnic-like group called Romaniotes (coined by the portugese jews accoring to Minna rozen) and those following nusach Roma became Italkim. An there is all these 'fake' langugages called Judeo-Arabic, Yavanic, Judeo-Spanish which are just concepts of ethnologists and not more than local variations and historical isolation. I have shared with you in other threads texts from experts that there is no language called Judeo Arabic, it is Arabic of that time written in hebrew letters and containg some minimal hebrew words. Likewise I shared with you articles that Javanic, Judeo-Greek is Byzantine Greek that did not follow the modernization of greek language. Of course language and liturgy created cohesion among the groups. All this is interesting from an academic point of view but these groups were not tribes in Afganistan isolated from each other.

I fact it is also scientifically wrong to talk about an ethnic identity among non-elites before 19th century. Jews were aware that they had different customs and geographic origins but this did not prevent them to adapt and mix. Often external conditions forced it upon them. And this misconception is so deep in the mind of western jews that some people hope to identify these distinctions by genetics again. I think almost everyone was surprised (I was) when the first ftDNA family finder results arrived which showed how close and tight the western jews were genetically in general.


Actually history often shows that in almost every place where jews of different origins met new identities were formed. Italy, Balkans, modern Turkey etc. The distinction was often socio-economic. People moved from one congregation to another when taxes were too high, Romaniotes married with the Sephardim in Ottoman times all the way down to their cultural extinction, Sephardim mixed with local jews in Syria and Northern Africa. I don't want even to start with the case of mixing with non-jewish locals and slaves and volunary conversions. There are plenty of jewish documents directly proving that the babylonian jews mixed with locals since the beginnings except the Rabbinic class which tried to keep their purity like a caste, complained aobut it and did not even eat together with the common folk. It is not surprising that in best admixture model, mizrahi jews are as at least 50% Assyrian-like.

But i think there is still hope in science, the male lines as determined by Y chromosomes are less speculative and less open to interpretation. Most sephardic jews had surnames already in the 15th century, it will be interesting to follow what happened with the male lines in general.

eolien
09-19-2019, 09:06 AM
Yes, as I've mentioned previously in this thread, and I believe you've mentioned elsewhere, Sephardim tended to constitute a majority of the Jewish population in a number of locations in the Ottoman Empire, including in Greece. This happened in part because the Ottomans forced many of the pre-existing Jewish communities (mainly Romaniotes) to relocate to Istanbul after conquest. Although there were of course still Romaniotes in Greece I would guess this might have played a role. It could be that the fact that Sephardim did not constitute a significant majority in places like Istanbul means that some Turkish Jewish admixtures more greatly reflect Romaniote (and Italki) heritage, as opposed to Iberian Jewish. Then again, we would have to suppose that Jews remained static within the Empire, and surely there was a lot of movement, such as you mentioned between Salonika and Izmir/Smyrna.

Izmir was becoming a port-city only in the 17th century, so Jews of course moved there from other places. Mainly from Manisa, Rhodes, Gallipoli, and Salonika. Due to its commercial oppotunities, Izmir was also a destination for foreign Italian jews and Portugese conversos which can be followed from their surnames. Starting from the end of 19th century it also attracted jews from towns of western anatolia like aydin, milas, tire etc.

Jews were initially not encouraged or allowed to settle in Istanbul. Probably in Istanbul the proportion of Romaniote jews were the highest when Sepharads started to settle. However they themselves were also mostly result of forced migration from other places like Macedonia and other parts of Greece. Since we have the numbers of jews devided by locals and immigrants in published ottoman documents, I don't know how one can say that "Sephardim did not constitute a significant majority in places like Istanbul". According to Minna Rozen's book "Whereas, in 1623, the balance was about 40%-60% in favour of the Romaniots, by the end of the seventeenth century the Iberians outnumbered the Romaniots (70% and less than 30% respectively, the remainder being Ashkenazim)".

see also this nice article as a summary for istanbul:
http://constantinople.ehw.gr/forms/fLemmaBodyExtended.aspx?lemmaID=10832#endNote_161

Claudio
09-19-2019, 10:14 AM
I'm almost sure the so called Romaniote/Ioaninna Jews have recent and strong connections with Western Sephardim and Italkim
who immigrated from Italy to Balkans over the last 4 centuries and despite the Yevanic language preservation to the detriment of the ladino.
Incidentally, the G25 Romaniote sample always come out a decent Western Euro ancestry' proportion when a such reference is used in the set ( I pick Collegno ,a very northerner-shifted pop in my exemple for avoiding a potential refutation),while it should not , if Romaniotes were a isolated community dating back to Antiquity

https://i.imgur.com/CfMdPzz.png

I'M not sure 'Bleach' if you were a member of Anthrogenica at the time,but Erikl86 earlier in Jewish/Aegean thread had tested with FTDNA 7 Greek Romaniote Jews from the fairly Endogamous Ioaninna Jewish population.
if you ask him he may share there Gedmatch results with the group again.
Surprisingly on Standard Gedmatch Settings i shared Multiple segments with 2 of the 7 Romaniotes on my Italian Rome/Lazio side,maybe a clue they recieved Admixture in last 3 centuries from italkim or some such?

passenger
09-19-2019, 01:17 PM
Izmir was becoming a port-city only in the 17th century, so Jews of course moved there from other places. Mainly from Manisa, Rhodes, Gallipoli, and Salonika. Due to its commercial oppotunities, Izmir was also a destination for foreign Italian jews and Portugese conversos which can be followed from their surnames. Starting from the end of 19th century it also attracted jews from towns of western anatolia like aydin, milas, tire etc.

Jews were initially not encouraged or allowed to settle in Istanbul. Probably in Istanbul the proportion of Romaniote jews were the highest when Sepharads started to settle. However they themselves were also mostly result of forced migration from other places like Macedonia and other parts of Greece. Since we have the numbers of jews devided by locals and immigrants in published ottoman documents, I don't know how one can say that "Sephardim did not constitute a significant majority in places like Istanbul". According to Minna Rozen's book "Whereas, in 1623, the balance was about 40%-60% in favour of the Romaniots, by the end of the seventeenth century the Iberians outnumbered the Romaniots (70% and less than 30% respectively, the remainder being Ashkenazim)".

see also this nice article as a summary for istanbul:
http://constantinople.ehw.gr/forms/fLemmaBodyExtended.aspx?lemmaID=10832#endNote_161

Thanks for the clarification. I'm familiar with Rozen's research, in fact I lo referred to it early on in this thread. What I was trying to say, but perhaps it wasn't clear, was that in relative terms Sephardim did not overwhelmingly outnumber Romaniotes in Istanbul as they did elsewhere in the Empire, including parts of Greece. Yes, they became a clear majority in Istanbul by the 17th century, but partly due to assimilation of the sizeable Romaniote community, so my point that their admixture might reflect a larger proportion of Romaniote heritage in comparison with some other Eastern Sephardim still stands. It's obviously just conjecture though. I'd be happy to entertain other notions.

eolien
09-19-2019, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I'm familiar with Rozen's research, in fact I lo referred to it early on in this thread. What I was trying to say, but perhaps it wasn't clear, was that in relative terms Sephardim did not overwhelmingly outnumber Romaniotes in Istanbul as they did elsewhere in the Empire, including parts of Greece. Yes, they became a clear majority in Istanbul by the 17th century, but partly due to assimilation of the sizeable Romaniote community, so my point that their admixture might reflect a larger proportion of Romaniote heritage in comparison with some other Eastern Sephardim still stands. It's obviously just conjecture though. I'd be happy to entertain other notions.

What you say seems to be clearly true. On the other hand we have no genetic data on Romaniotes except the Ioninna community. Even if the Iberian jews would have mixed with Romaniotes at a ratio of 1:1, it is not very visible in K15 PCA and not

detectable. As I said before in other occasions a comparison of Sepharadim from Morocco (who went there directly from Spain) with Turkish/Greek ones could be interesting.

Claudio
09-19-2019, 04:20 PM
Amongst Sephardim how common is the Berber Amazigh Paternal Y DNA haplogroup EM81 and or EM183 and there downstream subclades?

hartaisarlag
09-19-2019, 04:22 PM
Amongst Sephardim how common is the Berber Amazigh Paternal Y DNA haplogroup EM81 and or EM183 and there downstream subclades?

Avotaynu knows, but they haven’t shared.

Claudio
09-19-2019, 05:07 PM
Avotaynu knows, but they haven’t shared.

Forgive my lack of knowledge but who or what is Avotaynu?

hartaisarlag
09-19-2019, 05:12 PM
Forgive my lack of knowledge but who or what is Avotaynu?

No worries - I think I recently mentioned this project on the other thread. The DNA project linked to the Jewish genealogy website Avotaynu (and formally linked to JewishDNA.net) has >1,000 Jewish non-Ashkenazi Y chromosomes in its FTDNA project (with an emphasis on Western and Eastern Sephardim), has teased certain patterns, but keeps the results entirely secret.

passenger
09-19-2019, 05:17 PM
Forgive my lack of knowledge but who or what is Avotaynu?

https://avotaynuonline.com/

StillWater
09-20-2019, 12:07 AM
I want to correct a misconception that is often voiced in the threads especially about jews. There is no indication whatsoever in the history that the jews from different geographical origins have seen themselves as belonging to different groups. The concept of an 'eda in Israel is a projection of european nationalism by ashkenazim on to the other jews because german jews saw themselves superior to polish jews etc, they also thought there was such an awareness between this and that group. It was also easier to manipulate different groups by dividing them. Hence the distinctions were exaggerated, encouraged, emphasized etc.

There is a mix-up between a liturgy and an ethnic identity, the languages of the jews also becoming something exotic, often propagated by scholars to open for themselves new study fields. Thus according to some members, jews following nusach Romania became an ethnic-like group called Romaniotes (coined by the portugese jews accoring to Minna rozen) and those following nusach Roma became Italkim. An there is all these 'fake' langugages called Judeo-Arabic, Yavanic, Judeo-Spanish which are just concepts of ethnologists and not more than local variations and historical isolation. I have shared with you in other threads texts from experts that there is no language called Judeo Arabic, it is Arabic of that time written in hebrew letters and containg some minimal hebrew words. Likewise I shared with you articles that Javanic, Judeo-Greek is Byzantine Greek that did not follow the modernization of greek language. Of course language and liturgy created cohesion among the groups. All this is interesting from an academic point of view but these groups were not tribes in Afganistan isolated from each other.

I fact it is also scientifically wrong to talk about an ethnic identity among non-elites before 19th century. Jews were aware that they had different customs and geographic origins but this did not prevent them to adapt and mix. Often external conditions forced it upon them. And this misconception is so deep in the mind of western jews that some people hope to identify these distinctions by genetics again. I think almost everyone was surprised (I was) when the first ftDNA family finder results arrived which showed how close and tight the western jews were genetically in general.


Actually history often shows that in almost every place where jews of different origins met new identities were formed. Italy, Balkans, modern Turkey etc. The distinction was often socio-economic. People moved from one congregation to another when taxes were too high, Romaniotes married with the Sephardim in Ottoman times all the way down to their cultural extinction, Sephardim mixed with local jews in Syria and Northern Africa. I don't want even to start with the case of mixing with non-jewish locals and slaves and volunary conversions. There are plenty of jewish documents directly proving that the babylonian jews mixed with locals since the beginnings except the Rabbinic class which tried to keep their purity like a caste, complained aobut it and did not even eat together with the common folk. It is not surprising that in best admixture model, mizrahi jews are as at least 50% Assyrian-like.

But i think there is still hope in science, the male lines as determined by Y chromosomes are less speculative and less open to interpretation. Most sephardic jews had surnames already in the 15th century, it will be interesting to follow what happened with the male lines in general.

The distinction existed much earlier and wasn't stressed by Ashkenazim, but by Sephardim. German Jews looking down on Eastern Ashkenazim is a much more recent and a much more brief phenomenon than Sephardim looking down on Ashkenazim, for which there is a plethora of examples, extending over a much longer period than the couple decades of the 20th century between German and Polish Jews. Also, as Erikl86 demonstrated in the other thread, Rabbis weren't fond of conversions. I'm not that familiar with other Jewish languages, but Yiddish is a clear counter example to "fake" Jewish languages, as is Juhuri.

passenger
09-20-2019, 02:16 AM
The distinction existed much earlier and wasn't stressed by Ashkenazim, but by Sephardim. German Jews looking down on Eastern Ashkenazim is a much more recent and a much more brief phenomenon than Sephardim looking down on Ashkenazim, for which there is a plethora of examples, extending over a much longer period than the couple decades of the 20th century between German and Polish Jews. Also, as Erikl86 demonstrated in the other thread, Rabbis weren't fond of conversions. I'm not that familiar with other Jewish languages, but Yiddish is a clear counter example to "fake" Jewish languages, as is Juhuri.

Agreed. Of course, it's true that the discreteness of ethnic identities tends to be exaggerated as a product of modern social sciences born out of 19th-century nationalism. However, this obviously does not mean that different peoples have not formed in-group, out-group mentalities throughout the entirety of human history, whether or not it's appropriate to ascribe awareness of an "ethnic" identity to such groups. As I've mentioned previously, Ottoman Sephardim were quite suspicious of Ashkenazim in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as the research of Devin Naar points out. There's also a great dissertation (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bf99/d74fde83e2491f951effdadd705b348f5761.pdf ) on the subject of Russian Jewish immigrants to the Ottoman Empire and their complicated relationship with Sephardim. This doesn't mean that there wasn't room for fluidity, even during that period of heightened nationalisms. Thankfully for me, or my Sephardic great-grandmother wouldn't have married my Ashkenazi great-grandfather in Istanbul.

Prior to 19th-century nationalism, ethnic divisions among Jews may indeed have been more fluid, but they certainly weren't absent. We have abundant examples of strife between Sephardim and Romaniotes for instance, and between groups like the Granas and Twansa in Tunisia. Over time there was fluidity and intermarriage between these groups, but to claim that group identity was unimportant to them seems a stretch.

So while I agree with Eolien that we shouldn't imagine rigid inter-ethnic boundaries where they didn't exist, nor should we think that they are completely imaginary or simply imposed by outsiders.

The language issue is a whole other kettle of fish. As far as language reaffirms or accompanies a sense of ethnic identity, I think that Judeo-Spanish clearly fulfilled that role in the Ottoman Empire, where it was by definition the Jewish language ("Yahudice"). Judeo-Arabic, on the other hand, seems to me to be more of a modern invention, whose discreteness from Arabic and importance to group identity might be somewhat exaggerated, but I'm no expert on the subject.

StillWater
09-20-2019, 02:46 AM
Agreed. Of course, it's true that the discreteness of ethnic identities tends to be exaggerated as a product of modern social sciences born out of 19th-century nationalism. However, this obviously does not mean that different peoples have not formed in-group, out-group mentalities throughout the entirety of human history, whether or not it's appropriate to ascribe awareness of an "ethnic" identity to such groups. As I've mentioned previously, Ottoman Sephardim were quite suspicious of Ashkenazim in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as the research of Devin Naar points out. There's also a great dissertation (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bf99/d74fde83e2491f951effdadd705b348f5761.pdf ) on the subject of Russian Jewish immigrants to the Ottoman Empire and their complicated relationship with Sephardim. This doesn't mean that there wasn't room for fluidity, even during that period of heightened nationalisms. Thankfully for me, or my Sephardic great-grandmother wouldn't have married my Ashkenazi great-grandfather in Istanbul.

Prior to 19th-century nationalism, ethnic divisions among Jews may indeed have been more fluid, but they certainly weren't absent. We have abundant examples of strife between Sephardim and Romaniotes for instance, and between groups like the Granas and Twansa in Tunisia. Over time there was fluidity and intermarriage between these groups, but to claim that group identity was unimportant to them seems a stretch.

So while I agree with Eolien that we shouldn't imagine rigid inter-ethnic boundaries where they didn't exist, nor should we think that they are completely imaginary or simply imposed by outsiders.

The language issue is a whole other kettle of fish. As far as language reaffirms or accompanies a sense of ethnic identity, I think that Judeo-Spanish clearly fulfilled that role in the Ottoman Empire, where it was by definition the Jewish language ("Yahudice"). Judeo-Arabic, on the other hand, seems to me to be more of a modern invention, whose discreteness from Arabic and importance to group identity might be somewhat exaggerated, but I'm no expert on the subject.

Sephardim and Ashkenazim became "distinct" groups since the 16th century. That's not to say that they didn't view one another as fellow Jews and rightfully so. However, the idea that Ashkenazim are responsible for "the eda" is simply ahistorical. There was a time when Ashkenazim had to stand at the back of Sephardi synagogues and that far predated German vs Polish Jews. It's correct to partly blame the European rulership of the time, as they often had different policies toward Ashkenazim and Sephardim. An example is the animosity toward Ashkenazim in Amsterdam, as the Sephardim were legally mandated to financially support the poor newcomers by Dutch law. As for all this talk of 19th century European nationalism - I don't buy it, especially given centuries of history prior to that, where Sephardim were ostracized for marrying Ashkenazim. If anything, European nationalism had a positive effect on Jews, uniting Jews under Zionism (clearly talking about the influence European nationalism and not its unfortunate manifestation during the 40's). I fail to see how late European nationalism had a shred of impact on Jewish ethnic divisions.

passenger
09-20-2019, 03:07 AM
Sephardim and Ashkenazim became "distinct" groups since the 16th century. That's not to say that they didn't view one another as fellow Jews and rightfully so. However, the idea that Ashkenazim are responsible for "the eda" is simply ahistorical. There was a time when Ashkenazim had to stand at the back of Sephardi synagogues and that far predated German vs Polish Jews. It's correct to partly blame the European rulership of the time, as they often had different policies toward Ashkenazim and Sephardim. An example is the animosity toward Ashkenazim in Amsterdam, as the Sephardim were legally mandated to financially support the poor newcomers by Dutch law. As for all this talk of 19th century European nationalism - I don't buy it, especially given centuries of history prior to that, where Sephardim were ostracized for marrying Ashkenazim. If anything, European nationalism had a positive effect on Jews, uniting Jews under Zionism (clearly talking about the influence European nationalism and not its unfortunate manifestation during the 40's). I fail to see how late European nationalism had a shred of impact on Jewish ethnic divisions.

I wasn't referring to the effects of European nationalism on the actual identities per se, although I'm sure one could make an argument for that. I was talking about how ethnic identities are studied academically as discrete entities, which is often clouded by a type of thinking that emerged in Western social sciences, such as History and Anthropology, whose emergence went hand-in-hand with the emergence of modern nationalism. Those disciplines were so long dominated by an obsession with containing narratives within neat borders that it's often hard for modern academics to undo some of the artificial boundaries and social categories that we take for granted. My point was that while certain types of modern thinking might be responsible for reifying social categories and exaggerating their importance, that doesn't mean that they didn't exist at all in pre-modern times, as you've well exemplified. This is basic post-modernist historiography, which gets much maligned, but is a quite useful framework if you don't go to the extreme of thinking that all modern social categories are pure fantasy with no basis in lived historical realities.

DR2001
09-20-2019, 09:43 AM
2 new Moroccan Jews BETA

One from the more southern regions of Morocco:
33285
33284
33286

Second from the More Central regions:
33287
33288
https://ibb.co/MSPBXfY

The polarity is striking

Also my grandmother matches some “Ashkenazi Jews” (they score 90% Ashkenazi) from boston and New york and I am interested if one of their GGP was recent Sephardi immigrant or whether it’s more distant ancestry from the Portuguese Jews that settled in the North east coast.

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 03:54 PM
My Mother is partly Sephardic Jewish from her paternal grandparent side 1/4. I have her GEDmatch she usually also gets assigned 3-7% African to go with the Levantine/Southern European alleles usually found in Jews. How much African is the average Sephardic Jew? For example I usually get 0-5% African in calculators and my Father 0-2%. Here is Mother GEDmatch mixed mode if that helps:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.8% Estonian + 31.2% Jew_Tunisian @ 0.77
2 68% Estonian + 32% Jew_Libyan @ 0.83
3 75.9% Estonian + 24.1% Saudi @ 1.02
4 66.9% Estonian + 33.1% Jew_Moroccan @ 1.09
5 76.4% Estonian + 23.6% Jew_Yemenite @ 1.11
6 62% Estonian + 38% Jew_Ashkenazi @ 1.26
7 85.7% Ukrainian + 14.3% Egyptian @ 1.28
8 85.4% Ukrainian + 14.6% BedouinA @ 1.3
9 76.9% Estonian + 23.1% Levant_BA @ 1.33
10 74.1% Lithuanian + 25.9% Saudi @ 1.48
11 85.6% Scottish + 14.4% Yemeni @ 1.48
12 81.4% Ukrainian + 18.6% Jew_Libyan @ 1.5
13 92.1% Hungarian + 7.9% Yemeni @ 1.53
14 85% Ukrainian + 15% Jordanian @ 1.53
15 85.4% Ukrainian + 14.6% Palestinian @ 1.54
16 85.8% Ukrainian + 14.2% Libyan @ 1.55
17 83.3% Scottish + 16.7% Jordanian @ 1.55
18 83.9% Scottish + 16.1% BedouinA @ 1.56
19 82% Ukrainian + 18% Jew_Tunisian @ 1.56
20 87.4% Czech + 12.6% Yemeni @ 1.57

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 03:59 PM
In the new 23andme update I also received 2 regions for Egypt that was Broadly Northeast Africa and Unassigned before

passenger
09-22-2019, 04:00 PM
My Mother is partly Sephardic Jewish from her paternal grandparent side 1/4. I have her GEDmatch she usually also gets assigned 3-7% African to go with the Levantine/Southern European alleles usually found in Jews. How much African is the average Sephardic Jew? For example I usually get 0-5% African in calculators and my Father 0-2%. Here is Mother GEDmatch mixed mode if that helps:

Where is your mother's Sephardic grandparent from? And what do you mean by "African"? Subsaharan? North African? Sephardic Jews don't usually have more than a tiny percentage of Subsaharan, but they could have substantial North African, partly depending on where they're from.

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 04:10 PM
Where is your mother's Sephardic grandparent from? And what do you mean by "African"? Subsaharan? North African? Sephardic Jews don't usually have more than a tiny percentage of Subsaharan, but they could have substantial North African, partly depending on where they're from.

She is from Eastern Europe, how do you think our family has inherited the higher than average African alleles for a Jewish descended people? Here is K47 from yourDNA portal for example:

Mother 1/4 Jewish

East European 28.92%
Baltic 13.84%
Celtic 10.85%
Scando Germanic 8.85%
West Finnic 8.53%
Iranian 6.30%
North Sea Germanic 6.01%
South African Hunter Gatherer 3.77%
North Iberian 3.35%
North Caucasian 3.31%
Paleo Balkan 3.21%
North African 1.66%
East Iberian 0.49%
Central Mediterranean 0.46%
West Mediterranean 0.28%
Sahelian 0.10%
Nilotic 0.08%

passenger
09-22-2019, 04:25 PM
She is from Eastern Europe, how do you think our family has inherited the higher than average African alleles for a Jewish descended people? Here is K47 from yourDNA portal for example:

Mother 1/4 Jewish

East European 28.92%
Baltic 13.84%
Celtic 10.85%
Scando Germanic 8.85%
West Finnic 8.53%
Iranian 6.30%
North Sea Germanic 6.01%
South African Hunter Gatherer 3.77%
North Iberian 3.35%
North Caucasian 3.31%
Paleo Balkan 3.21%
North African 1.66%
East Iberian 0.49%
Central Mediterranean 0.46%
West Mediterranean 0.28%
Sahelian 0.10%
Nilotic 0.08%

I'm very confused. What makes you think that she's Sephardic? First of all, it's not impossible for an Eastern European to have Sephardic ancestry, but obviously the most common would be Ashkenazi. Whether she were Ashkenazi or Sephardic, though, she should have much higher Mediterranean percentages, particularly East Med, which looks to be absent. And I don't see any reason why she should have a South African Hunter Gatherer percentage in connection to any Jewish heritage. All Sephardim and Ashkenazim have some degree of North African (as in Maghrebian) ancestry, which is usually higher in Sephardim, as well as Northeast African (Sudan, Ethiopia, Horn of Africa) in small percentages, which in certain individuals can be particularly expressive. West African is much less common, but not totally out of the realm of possibility for some Sephardim, but Southern African is extremely odd in my opinion.

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 04:34 PM
I'm very confused. What makes you think that she's Sephardic? First of all, it's not impossible for an Eastern European to have Sephardic ancestry, but obviously the most common would be Ashkenazi. Whether she were Ashkenazi or Sephardic, though, she should have much higher Mediterranean percentages, particularly East Med, which looks to be absent. And I don't see any reason why she should have a South African Hunter Gatherer percentage in connection to any Jewish heritage. All Sephardim and Ashkenazim have some degree of North African (as in Maghrebian) ancestry, which is usually higher in Sephardim, as well as Northeast African (Sudan, Ethiopia, Horn of Africa) in small percentages, which in certain individuals can be particularly expressive. West African is much less common, but not totally out of the realm of possibility for some Sephardim, but Southern African is extremely odd in my opinion.

Well you have alot of made up rules their buddy but she is Sephardic and probably little bit Ashkenazi. That is what the calculators are showing but also the paper trail from southern Ukraine. We match with many Sephardic Jews, North Africans, Latin Americans, Turkish, Greeks, Balkans, Israelis, etc as a confirmation.

I get more North African than my Mother, but that is not relevant at all. If you want to see more calculators let me know

passenger
09-22-2019, 04:44 PM
Well you have alot of made up rules their buddy but she is Sephardic and probably little bit Ashkenazi. That is what the calculators are showing but also the paper trail from southern Ukraine. We match with many Sephardic Jews, North Africans, Latin Americans, Turkish, Greeks, Balkans, Israelis, etc as a confirmation.

I get more North African than my Mother, but that is not relevant at all. If you want to see more calculators let me know

I'm just trying to help, but you're not helping me by giving me any information about why you think she's specifically Sephardic based on your family history. And I'm not making up "rules", especially because there are no rules. I'm just giving my somewhat informed opinion based on what I've seen of Ashkenazi and Sephardic averages in different calculators. I'm not saying that she can't be either Sephardic or Ashkenazi, but her specific breakdown is quite unusual as compared to the averages I've seen. I suggest you browse through some of the other threads to get an idea of what such averages look like, if you haven't done so before.

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 04:56 PM
I'm just trying to help, but you're not helping me by giving me any information about why you think she's specifically Sephardic based on your family history. And I'm not making up "rules", especially because there are no rules. I'm just giving my somewhat informed opinion based on what I've seen of Ashkenazi and Sephardic averages in different calculators. I'm not saying that she can't be either Sephardic or Ashkenazi, but her specific breakdown is quite unusual as compared to the averages I've seen. I suggest you browse through some of the other threads to get an idea of what such averages look like, if you haven't done so before.

Why will she be the average? We are swarthy and dark tanned Slavs with Dinaro tendencies. I am not looking for an invite or acceptance to the Jewish club, I am only wanting to know why we are more African derived than majority of Jewish community in and around Europe? My Mother has a high degree of Levantine admixture and she is only 1/4 Jewish regardless of her high African admixture

I am just here to show you what real Sefard Jews who got off the boat are really scoring in calculators

StillWater
09-22-2019, 04:59 PM
Why will she be the average? We are swarthy and dark tanned Slavs with Dinaro tendencies. I am not looking for an invite or acceptance to the Jewish club, I am only wanting to know why we are more African derived than majority of Jewish community in and around Europe? My Mother has a high degree of Levantine admixture and she is only 1/4 Jewish regardless of her high African admixture

I am just here to show you what real Sefard Jews who got off the boat are really scoring in calculators

Were these kits achieved through phasing of some kind or were they simply downloaded from the testing company's website?

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 05:00 PM
Were these kits achieved through phasing of some kind or were they simply downloaded from the testing company's website?

AncestryDNA

passenger
09-22-2019, 05:09 PM
Why will she be the average? We are swarthy and dark tanned Slavs with Dinaro tendencies. I am not looking for an invite or acceptance to the Jewish club, I am only wanting to know why we are more African derived than majority of Jewish community in and around Europe? My Mother has a high degree of Levantine admixture and she is only 1/4 Jewish regardless of her high African admixture

I am just here to show you what real Sefard Jews who got off the boat are really scoring in calculators

:lol: I'm not the gatekeeper to Judaism, nor do I pretend to be. Once again, I'm just sharing my informed opinion, but others here are surely more informed than I am, so I'll leave it to them to respond if they think they can engage in a more constructive dialogue.

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 05:18 PM
:lol: I'm not the gatekeeper to Judaism, nor do I pretend to be. Once again, I'm just sharing my informed opinion, but others here are surely more informed than I am, so I'll leave it to them to respond if they think they can engage in a more constructive dialogue.

Lol what do you mean guy? You are not trying to engage in a dialogue, not me. I told you already I can share my results in the forum.

So if I have "some" African admixture you think this disqualifies me from calling myself Jewish? There is converts, traders, slaves, etc of Spanish and Portuguese Empires it is just fascinating what is in the history, before my ancestors arrived at the Ottoman frontier!

StillWater
09-22-2019, 05:34 PM
AncestryDNA

What did AncestryDNA give her?

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 05:36 PM
What did AncestryDNA give her?

Eastern Europe and Russia 100%

StillWater
09-22-2019, 05:46 PM
Eastern Europe and Russia 100%

Dude, shouldn't TA be running again?

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 05:50 PM
Dude, shouldn't TA be running again?

What is TA?

StillWater
09-22-2019, 05:58 PM
What is TA?

What is a Vlach Scythian from Kyrgyzstan?

Claudio
09-22-2019, 05:58 PM
Eastern Europe and Russia 100%

If AncestryDNA assigned her 100% Eastern Europe and Russia what on earth gives you the notion she is part Sephardic or Ashkenazi? I’m at a loss here :\

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 06:06 PM
If AncestryDNA assigned her 100% Eastern Europe and Russia what on earth gives you the notion she is part Sephardic or Ashkenazi? I’m at a loss here :\

Is obvious they are counting a Jewish component within "Eastern Europe and Russia" average

Look at her GEDmatch result if you are confused, or let me know if you want to see some other calcs

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 06:08 PM
What is a Vlach Scythian from Kyrgyzstan?

I'm sorry, what?

Claudio
09-22-2019, 06:32 PM
Is obvious they are counting a Jewish component within "Eastern Europe and Russia" average

Look at her GEDmatch result if you are confused, or let me know if you want to see some other calcs

Can you post her Eurogenes K13?

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 06:33 PM
Mother 1/4 Jewish

Eurogenes K15

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 31.17
2 North_Sea 22.07
3 Eastern_Euro 16.81
4 Atlantic 11.61
5 East_Med 7.43
6 West_Med 6.16
7 Sub-Saharan 2.8
8 Red_Sea 0.59
9 Northeast_African 0.57
10 West_Asian 0.43
11 Siberian 0.35
12 Oceanian 0.01

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.3% Lithuanian + 15.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 6.05
2 84.2% Lithuanian + 15.8% Algerian @ 6.17
3 77.5% Lithuanian + 22.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 6.32
4 83.9% Lithuanian + 16.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.45
5 84.7% Lithuanian + 15.3% Tunisian @ 6.45
6 83.8% Lithuanian + 16.2% Italian_Jewish @ 6.51
7 86.3% Lithuanian + 13.7% Egyptian @ 6.59
8 85.3% Lithuanian + 14.7% Mozabite_Berber @ 6.64
9 81% Lithuanian + 19% Ashkenazi @ 6.64
10 85.4% Lithuanian + 14.6% Moroccan @ 6.7
11 82% Lithuanian + 18% East_Sicilian @ 6.74
12 83.1% Lithuanian + 16.9% South_Italian @ 6.77
13 85.3% Lithuanian + 14.7% Tunisian_Jewish @ 6.8
14 87% Lithuanian + 13% Samaritan @ 6.83
15 81.9% Lithuanian + 18.1% Central_Greek @ 6.85
16 82.2% Lithuanian + 17.8% West_Sicilian @ 6.88
17 86.4% Lithuanian + 13.6% Jordanian @ 6.89
18 86.8% Lithuanian + 13.2% Palestinian @ 6.89
19 70.6% Ukrainian_Lviv + 29.4% Lithuanian @ 6.91
20 84.6% Lithuanian + 15.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.91

Eurogenes K13

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.95
2 North_Atlantic 24.29
3 East_Med 11.25
4 West_Med 10.66
5 Sub-Saharan 3.08
6 West_Asian 1.7
7 Siberian 1.67
8 Red_Sea 0.72
9 Northeast_African 0.6
10 Oceanian 0.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.4% Estonian_Polish + 11.6% Tunisian @ 5.43
2 87.4% Belorussian + 12.6% Tunisian @ 5.56
3 81.2% Lithuanian + 18.8% Tunisian @ 5.63
4 80.4% Lithuanian + 19.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.67
5 88.7% Estonian_Polish + 11.3% Algerian @ 5.68
6 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.7
7 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.71
8 89.8% Estonian_Polish + 10.2% Egyptian @ 5.71
9 86.5% Estonian_Polish + 13.5% Ashkenazi @ 5.77
10 77.7% Lithuanian + 22.3% Ashkenazi @ 5.78
11 87.8% Belorussian + 12.2% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.8
12 87.7% Belorussian + 12.3% Algerian @ 5.83
13 89.2% Estonian_Polish + 10.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.9
14 88.6% Estonian_Polish + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 5.91
15 89.2% Estonian_Polish + 10.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.92
16 87.3% Belorussian + 12.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.92
17 90.4% Estonian_Polish + 9.6% Samaritan @ 5.96
18 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Moroccan @ 5.98
19 90.6% Estonian_Polish + 9.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.99
20 80.8% Lithuanian + 19.2% Italian_Jewish @ 6

Eurogenes ANE K7

Population
ANE 16.31 Pct
ASE 1.07 Pct
WHG-UHG 63.56 Pct
East_Eurasian 1.25 Pct
West_African 2.51 Pct
East_African 1.90 Pct
ENF 13.39 Pct

Eurogenes K36

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.09 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 8.71 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 3.94 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 28.72 Pct
East_Med 2.05 Pct
Eastern_Euro 15.86 Pct
Fennoscandian 12.06 Pct
French 5.59 Pct
Iberian 9.61 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 1.65 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 1.74 Pct
North_Caucasian 0.84 Pct
North_Sea 4.78 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic 1.01 Pct
Pygmy 2.21 Pct
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.14 Pct

MDLP K23b

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 47.45
2 Caucasian 27.78
3 European_Early_Farmers 10.36
4 Ancestral_Altaic 4.56
5 Near_East 3.53
6 Khoisan 3.47
7 Paleo_Siberian 1.45
8 Subsaharian 0.6
9 Australoid 0.59
10 South_Central_Asian 0.15
11 African_Pygmy 0.08

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.3% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.7% Gui ( ) @ 3.73
2 95.6% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.4% Taa_West ( ) @ 3.73
3 95.6% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.4% Ju_hoan_South ( ) @ 3.73
4 95.2% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.8% Hoan ( ) @ 3.74
5 95.3% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.7% Xuun ( ) @ 3.74
6 95.7% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.3% Taa_North ( ) @ 3.74
7 95.6% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.4% Taa_East ( ) @ 3.74
8 95.8% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.2% Ju_hoan_North ( ) @ 3.75
9 95.7% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.3% Naro ( ) @ 3.76
10 94.5% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.5% Nama ( ) @ 3.76
11 94.5% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.5% Khomani ( ) @ 3.78
12 95% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5% Gana ( ) @ 3.8
13 94.7% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.3% Haiom ( ) @ 3.85
14 94.9% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.1% !Kung ( ) @ 3.93
15 94.9% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.1% Tshwa ( ) @ 4
16 94.8% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 5.2% Shua ( ) @ 4.09
17 95.1% Ukrainian_West ( ) + 4.9% Khwe ( ) @ 4.32
18 94.2% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 5.8% Khomani ( ) @ 4.35
19 94.4% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 5.6% Nama ( ) @ 4.38
20 95.2% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 4.8% Gui ( ) @ 4.4

Puntdnal K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 53.82
2 SW_Europe 23.86
3 West_Asia 9.93
4 SW_Asia 4.96
5 South_Africa 2.8
6 West_Africa 1.76
7 Siberia 1.76
8 Oceania 1.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.9% Belarusian + 6.1% Mbuti_Pygmy @ 3.56
2 93.8% Belarusian + 6.2% Biaka_Pygmy @ 3.6
3 95.1% Belarusian + 4.9% Ju_Hoan @ 4.11
4 93.2% Belarusian + 6.8% Sandawe @ 4.32
5 94.4% Belarusian + 5.6% Bantu_SE @ 4.36
6 93.7% Belarusian + 6.3% Hadza @ 4.46
7 79.3% Russian + 20.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.52
8 83.8% Russian + 16.2% Italian_Sicilian @ 4.53
9 92.1% Belarusian + 7.9% Yemeni @ 4.53
10 78.9% Russian + 21.1% Albanian @ 4.53
11 72.5% Russian + 27.5% Romanian @ 4.55
12 74.7% Russian + 25.3% Macedonian @ 4.55
13 60.3% Russian + 39.7% Moldavian @ 4.56
14 72.1% Russian + 27.9% Montenegrin @ 4.56
15 74.9% Russian + 25.1% Bulgarian @ 4.57
16 82.1% Russian + 17.9% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.57
17 78.4% Russian + 21.6% Kosovar @ 4.58
18 81.5% Russian + 18.5% Greek_Central @ 4.58
19 69.7% Russian + 30.3% Serbian @ 4.58
20 83.4% Russian + 16.6% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 4.58

Gedrosia K6

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.8% Estonian + 31.2% Jew_Tunisian @ 0.77
2 68% Estonian + 32% Jew_Libyan @ 0.83
3 75.9% Estonian + 24.1% Saudi @ 1.02
4 66.9% Estonian + 33.1% Jew_Moroccan @ 1.09
5 76.4% Estonian + 23.6% Jew_Yemenite @ 1.11
6 62% Estonian + 38% Jew_Ashkenazi @ 1.26
7 85.7% Ukrainian + 14.3% Egyptian @ 1.28
8 85.4% Ukrainian + 14.6% BedouinA @ 1.3
9 76.9% Estonian + 23.1% Levant_BA @ 1.33
10 74.1% Lithuanian + 25.9% Saudi @ 1.48
11 85.6% Scottish + 14.4% Yemeni @ 1.48
12 81.4% Ukrainian + 18.6% Jew_Libyan @ 1.5
13 92.1% Hungarian + 7.9% Yemeni @ 1.53
14 85% Ukrainian + 15% Jordanian @ 1.53
15 85.4% Ukrainian + 14.6% Palestinian @ 1.54
16 85.8% Ukrainian + 14.2% Libyan @ 1.55
17 83.3% Scottish + 16.7% Jordanian @ 1.55
18 83.9% Scottish + 16.1% BedouinA @ 1.56
19 82% Ukrainian + 18% Jew_Tunisian @ 1.56
20 87.4% Czech + 12.6% Yemeni @ 1.57

Dodecad K7b

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 7.6% Mozabite (HGDP) @ 1.44
2 92.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 7.6% Moroccans (Behar) @ 1.44
3 91.4% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 8.6% Moroccan (Dodecad) @ 1.45
4 74.7% Russian (Dodecad) + 25.3% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 1.67
5 88.5% Swedish (Dodecad) + 11.5% Yemenese (Behar) @ 1.72
6 86.6% Belorussian (Behar) + 13.4% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
7 91.6% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 8.4% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
8 75.2% Russian_B (Behar) + 24.8% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 1.78
9 88.5% Belorussian (Behar) + 11.5% Egyptans (Behar) @ 1.91
10 87% Russian (Dodecad) + 13% Moroccan (Dodecad) @ 1.94
11 70.6% Russian (Dodecad) + 29.4% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 2.01
12 87.3% Russian_B (Behar) + 12.7% Moroccan (Dodecad) @ 2.01
13 71.1% Russian_B (Behar) + 28.9% Portuguese (Dodecad) @ 2.03
14 69.6% Russian (Dodecad) + 30.4% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 2.13
15 88.4% Swedish (Dodecad) + 11.6% Egyptans (Behar) @ 2.13
16 88% Belorussian (Behar) + 12% Moroccans (Behar) @ 2.14
17 70.1% Russian_B (Behar) + 29.9% Extremadura (1000Genomes) @ 2.16
18 88.1% Belorussian (Behar) + 11.9% Mozabite (HGDP) @ 2.17
19 89% Polish (Dodecad) + 11% Algerian (Dodecad) @ 2.17
20 83% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 17% Canarias (1000Genomes) @ 2.18

Rogerw
09-22-2019, 06:37 PM
She is only 1/4 Sephardic to my knowledge

DR2001
10-01-2019, 10:14 AM
Full Moroccan jew in BETA. Probably has recent Converso Ancestry


https://i.ibb.co/86VXKr0/0-E5575-F2-30-FF-4570-AAF1-092-E7-C8-E3-CCD.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/4MDdXVR/73-AE3-A83-32-E3-4-BAD-BB06-D3-E0-DBD49358.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/X7bxv42/1-B014-E72-4-B74-4663-87-B2-6-E0-C7-C5598-D4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/0fr8Xc1/914-EC7-BD-70-DC-4591-9-CAC-B71088-D878-D2.jpg

StillWater
10-01-2019, 11:18 AM
Full Moroccan jew in BETA. Probably has recent Converso Ancestry

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/ZxYB6gw/51-B0-A329-B048-4788-B94-E-68-A3553803-CA.png[/IG]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/02Mt88r/9-D40-F7-DC-479-F-41-B4-BF83-F7-A32-F53-D001.png[/IG]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/HTTCkJN/C02-C6-CFC-7494-481-E-952-B-EA6-FB7869-C93.png[/IG]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/J5q4WRS/D9-B555-FA-FF8-D-4-D5-F-8-BF7-538937-B7-C29-F.png[/IG]

You don't mean "Converso" (Jewish->Christian). You mean: convert(Christian->Jewish). No reason to think that this is representative of Conversos (Jews who converted to Christianity in Iberia and their descendants). Granted, you think this Spaniard ancestry was picked up during the Converso period.

DR2001
10-01-2019, 11:28 AM
You don't mean "Converso" (Jewish->Christian). You mean: convert(Christian->Jewish). No reason to think that this is representative of Conversos (Jews who converted to Christianity in Iberia and their descendants). Granted, you think this Spaniard ancestry was picked up during the Converso period.

I can and will ask him wether one of his Moroccan born grandparents was of christian origins and converted to Judaism. I doubt though that this is the case. His ancestral last names are Buzaglo, Attias and Serfaty. All very Jewish last names.

passenger
10-01-2019, 01:09 PM
I can and will ask him wether one of his Moroccan born grandparents was of christian origins and converted to Judaism. I doubt though that this is the case. His ancestral last names are Buzaglo, Attias and Serfaty. All very Jewish last names.

Thanks for sharing. Did you mean to share his name though?

DR2001
10-01-2019, 01:58 PM
Thanks for sharing. Did you mean to share his name though?

Fixed

eolien
10-01-2019, 04:00 PM
Full Moroccan jew in BETA. Probably has recent Converso Ancestry



Am I missing something (I cannot see any data?) What promoted your assumption?

DR2001
10-01-2019, 04:46 PM
You don't mean "Converso" (Jewish->Christian). You mean: convert(Christian->Jewish). No reason to think that this is representative of Conversos (Jews who converted to Christianity in Iberia and their descendants). Granted, you think this Spaniard ancestry was picked up during the Converso period.

He answered me and said he is a Full Moroccan Jew (no known christian Convert roots) from Tangier and Casablanca.

DR2001
10-01-2019, 04:47 PM
Am I missing something (I cannot see any data?) What promoted your assumption?

I can still see the pictures I posted. I don’t know why you can’t ?¿

StillWater
10-01-2019, 10:26 PM
I can and will ask him wether one of his Moroccan born grandparents was of christian origins and converted to Judaism. I doubt though that this is the case. His ancestral last names are Buzaglo, Attias and Serfaty. All very Jewish last names.

His result makes no sense even if he is of 100% Converso ancestry. Studies have been done on Belmonte Jews. They weren't this Spanish. And just how recent could his Converso ancestry be? His extreme result warrants extreme explanations. You have to consider things like false paternity in Spanish Morocco in recent generations.

hartaisarlag
10-02-2019, 12:27 AM
His result makes no sense even if he is of 100% Converso ancestry. Studies have been done on Belmonte Jews. They weren't this Spanish. And just how recent could his Converso ancestry be? His extreme result warrants extreme explanations. You have to consider things like false paternity in Spanish Morocco in recent generations.

I think the point is that West Mediterranean conversos lived in a world of fluid identities from the 15th to early 17th centuries, and it's very possible that in major entrepôts like Tangier and Livorno, or even in urban Spain (in contrast with the mountainous Portuguese interior), they intermarried with Iberians and Italians, leaving mixed descendants who returned to the fold of normative, open Judaism (if the site of these mixed marriages was Spain, there is precedent for crypto-Jews leaving Iberia relatively late). Jonathan Ray's "After Expulsion: 1492 and the Making of Sephardic Jewry" put these possibilities on my radar.

Conversely, there were plenty of cases of Jews who left Spain for the proto-Sephardic centers of North Africa, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire, only to return (or for their descendants to return) to Iberia and choose homeland and a chance at reclaiming their assets over being able to openly practice Judaism.

hartaisarlag
10-02-2019, 12:31 AM
I would also ask in this case: how big are the Iberian and Italian segments?

Plus: the presence of trace Native American and West African don't exclude the possibility of 16th century Iberian gentile introgression into the converso population, but seem more likely to have arrived in Spain later than this period, which would militate toward the possibility of a false paternity event in Spanish Morocco.

StillWater
10-02-2019, 12:50 AM
I think the point is that West Mediterranean conversos lived in a world of fluid identities from the 15th to early 17th centuries, and it's very possible that in major entrepôts like Tangier and Livorno, or even in urban Spain (in contrast with the mountainous Portuguese interior), they intermarried with Iberians and Italians, leaving mixed descendants who returned to the fold of normative, open Judaism (if the site of these mixed marriages was Spain, there is precedent for crypto-Jews leaving Iberia relatively late). Jonathan Ray's "After Expulsion: 1492 and the Making of Sephardic Jewry" put these possibilities on my radar.

Conversely, there were plenty of cases of Jews who left Spain for the proto-Sephardic centers of North Africa, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire, only to return (or for their descendants to return) to Iberia and choose homeland and a chance at reclaiming their assets over being able to openly practice Judaism.

Let's be clear that this is an outlier at best. We haven't seen Moroccan Jews even score 10% Iberian, nevermind this result. In the study I linked before on North African Jews, there wasn't a result like this either, unless they eliminated it for being an outlier. The answer probably lies in his cousin matches. It's certainly counter intuitive that overly mixed Jews would suddenly return to Judaism in an anti-Semitic climate.

hartaisarlag
10-02-2019, 01:10 AM
Let's be clear that this is an outlier at best. We haven't seen Moroccan Jews even score 10% Iberian, nevermind this result. In the study I linked before on North African Jews, there wasn't a result like this either, unless they eliminated it for being an outlier. The answer probably lies in his cousin matches. It's certainly counter intuitive that overly mixed Jews would suddenly return to Judaism in an anti-Semitic climate.

I thought I'd definitely seen Moroccan Jews with >10% Iberian on TA. And which study?

passenger
10-02-2019, 01:20 AM
Almost definitely an outlier. Like I've said before, I do think converso ancestry could account for a somewhat higher percentage of Iberian ancestry among some Moroccan Jews, but I really doubt it could be that much. Being a converso wouldn't have made much of a difference within the first century after 1492, since "New Christians" were generally still very much self-segregated as well as ostracized by the Old Christian community, even though intermarriage definitely went up to some degree. We shouldn't forget though, that small numbers of Spaniards and Portuguese with at least partial Jewish heritage continued to flee Iberia, sometimes for North Africa, well into the 18th century. They often had no more than a vague personal connection to Judaism, but they were still hounded by the Inquisition because of their "tainted" blood. I don't think it's far-fetched to imagine that they left a more visible legacy among some individuals in Morocco, but I still think this seems to be an extreme case.

StillWater
10-02-2019, 01:25 AM
I thought I'd definitely seen Moroccan Jews with >10% Iberian on TA. And which study?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427049/

People on TA like to post outliers for various agendas.

talombo
10-02-2019, 04:36 AM
Found one Iraqi jew in my 23andme matches (at least I assume he's Jewish), all grandparents from Baghdad,
very different from what Sephardic Jews get:

https://imgbbb.com/images/2019/10/02/iraq-j.jpg

hartaisarlag
10-02-2019, 04:41 AM
Found one Iraqi jew in my 23andme matches (at least I assume he's Jewish), all grandparents from Baghdad,
very different from what Sephardic Jews get:

https://imgbbb.com/images/2019/10/02/iraq-j.jpg

Drops of European, interesting. Not nearly as Northern West Asian-skewed as the Shirazi Jew I posted in the 23andMe subforum.

eolien
10-02-2019, 05:24 AM
Found one Iraqi jew in my 23andme matches (at least I assume he's Jewish), all grandparents from Baghdad,
very different from what Sephardic Jews get:

https://imgbbb.com/images/2019/10/02/iraq-j.jpg

But this result is very usual, a while ago i had posted in the other jewish thread some G25 nMonte runs that included the G25 reference Iraqi and Iranian jews. Also in gedmatch there are samples labelled as iraqi jews. on PCA they are often just next to assyrians.

DR2001
10-02-2019, 09:05 AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427049/

People on TA like to post outliers for various agendas.

I can show you Moroccan Jews with more than 10% Spain. It’s not the most common scenario after the Update but it’s there and not so rare. I’d say that more than 15% is starting to be rare. I think around 30-40% of the Full Moroccan Jews matches I have score more than 9% Spanish and Portuguese. I agree the current average after the update is 5-10% Spanish&Portuguese (Without the broadly Southern European which theoretically can raise it up to more than 10% on average) because some Southern Moroccan Jews score really ridiculous percentages like less than 5%. The ones from the more Sephardic regions score 7-15% with above 10% being far from rare.

talombo
10-02-2019, 09:21 AM
Turkish jew (2 grandparents from Antalya, one from Milas, one from Rhodes)
33559

Syrian jew (2 grandparents from Aleppo, 2 from Damascus)
33560

DR2001
10-02-2019, 09:39 AM
Turkish jew (2 grandparents from Antalya, one from Milas, one from Rhodes)
33559

Syrian jew (2 grandparents from Aleppo, 2 from Damascus)
33560

Can someone explain to me why Western Jews score high percentage of Mesopotamian DNA and relatively low percentage of levant; while Christian Palestinians and Christian Lebanese (that were all very endogenous from the arrival of Islam) score over 80% Levantine?

Jews western Asian breakdown is more similar to that of Syrians than to that of Lebanese. Is it possible that jews do have high levels of Mesopotamian ancestry? Also Moroccan Jews tend to score high Egyptian and low Levantine. DO you think it's an actual Egyptian ancestry? All Judeans were part Egyptians? Maybe Jews were just mix of ancient Egyptians, Anatolian and Mesopotamian people?

DR2001
10-02-2019, 10:21 AM
Want to see real Atypicals? This is Atypical-

33567
He claims to be fully Moroccan Jew from Tangier, Tetouan, Casablanca and Essaouira but has 1.6% Native American and 8.5% Ashkenazi. Also 15%+ Spain as I said isn't common at all for people for my matches list.


Also this one- Fully Moroccan Jew but with 12.2% Ashkenazi and 1.5% French&German, like tf?

33566


Also Fully Algerian Jew with more Spanish than all of us combined-

33568

talombo
10-02-2019, 10:44 AM
Want to see real Atypicals? This is Atypical-

33567
He claims to be fully Moroccan Jew from Tangier, Tetouan, Casablanca and Essaouira but has 1.6% Native American and 8.5% Ashkenazi. Also 15%+ Spain as I said isn't common at all for people for my matches list.


The native american is interesting, I know a lot of Moroccan Jews traveled to Brazil even as recently as a 100 years ago (my great-uncle is buried in Brazil), I guess it's possible that few of them returned to Morocco and brought Brazilian wives with them.

DR2001
10-02-2019, 10:48 AM
The native american is interesting, I know a lot of Moroccan Jews traveled to Brazil even as resent as a 100 years ago (my great-uncle is buried in Brazil), I guess it's possible that few of them returned to Morocco and brought Brazilian wives with them.

He get no country listed under "recent ancestry in the americas״ though

StillWater
10-02-2019, 11:50 AM
Turkish jew (2 grandparents from Antalya, one from Milas, one from Rhodes)
33559

Syrian jew (2 grandparents from Aleppo, 2 from Damascus)
33560

Any further detail on the East Asian they're scoring?

talombo
10-02-2019, 12:01 PM
Any further detail on the East Asian they're scoring?

The Turkish jew:
0.1% Native American
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

The Syrian jew:
0.1% Indonesian, Thai, Khmer & Myanma
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

I have:
01% Filipino & Austronesian
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

I think these 0.1% East Asian are just random, not enough dna for 23andme to pinpoint the location.

Claudio
10-02-2019, 06:28 PM
I think the point is that West Mediterranean conversos lived in a world of fluid identities from the 15th to early 17th centuries, and it's very possible that in major entrepôts like Tangier and Livorno, or even in urban Spain (in contrast with the mountainous Portuguese interior), they intermarried with Iberians and Italians, leaving mixed descendants who returned to the fold of normative, open Judaism (if the site of these mixed marriages was Spain, there is precedent for crypto-Jews leaving Iberia relatively late). Jonathan Ray's "After Expulsion: 1492 and the Making of Sephardic Jewry" put these possibilities on my radar.

Conversely, there were plenty of cases of Jews who left Spain for the proto-Sephardic centers of North Africa, Italy, and the Ottoman Empire, only to return (or for their descendants to return) to Iberia and choose homeland and a chance at reclaiming their assets over being able to openly practice Judaism.

I have to agree with you on this.
The rich Converso Merchants that setup the first Sephardic communities of Amsterdam and London had previously spent last 200 years as New Christians in Spain then Portugal.
These Merchants were Rich & proud but had lost there language and most of there Jewish customs to time and once in Amsterdam & London according to sources had to import in Rabbi’s from a Turkey & Greece to re-learn the ways of the force :biggrin1:
They had evidently during there 200 years prior as New Christians in Spain then Portugal also taken on More recent Iberian Admixture from marrying locals during that period.

hartaisarlag
10-02-2019, 07:26 PM
I have to agree with you on this.
The rich Converso Merchants that setup the first Sephardic communities of Amsterdam and London had previously spent last 200 years as New Christians in Spain then Portugal.
These Merchants were Rich & proud but had lost there language and most of there Jewish customs to time and once in Amsterdam & London according to sources had to import in Rabbi’s from a Turkey & Greece to re-learn the ways of the force :biggrin1:
They had evidently during there 200 years prior as New Christians in Spain then Portugal also taken on More recent Iberian Admixture from marrying locals during that period.

Interesting! That particular path (the rabbinic one) is the path of the direct male-line ancestor of one of my Sephardic DNA relatives (well-triangulated with Portuguese, Brazilian, Chilean, Mexican, and New Mexican Hispano matches). His surname derives from a placename in Old Castile, and his line shows up in Salonica ca. 1600. That earliest ancestor's grandson was the chief Sephardic rabbi of London in 1689, and an important haham in Amsterdam from 1700 till his death in 1728. His son was born in Amsterdam in 1706 and died there in 1787, but apparently had a son who was born in Egypt, became a rabbi, and died in Salonica in 1775 (another son died in 1830 in *drum roll*—Lithuania!). In any case, from the late 18th century onward, the family's line is continuously in Alexandria.

StillWater
10-02-2019, 08:36 PM
The Turkish jew:
0.1% Native American
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

The Syrian jew:
0.1% Indonesian, Thai, Khmer & Myanma
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

I have:
01% Filipino & Austronesian
and 0.1% Broadly East Asian & Native American

I think these 0.1% East Asian are just random, not enough dna for 23andme to pinpoint the location.

Do you score Southeast Asian on gedmatch calcs etc?

StillWater
10-02-2019, 08:42 PM
I have to agree with you on this.
The rich Converso Merchants that setup the first Sephardic communities of Amsterdam and London had previously spent last 200 years as New Christians in Spain then Portugal.
These Merchants were Rich & proud but had lost there language and most of there Jewish customs to time and once in Amsterdam & London according to sources had to import in Rabbi’s from a Turkey & Greece to re-learn the ways of the force :biggrin1:
They had evidently during there 200 years prior as New Christians in Spain then Portugal also taken on More recent Iberian Admixture from marrying locals during that period.

Needing Rabbis has been a historically common issue. It occurs after migrations and/or massacres. Rabbinical knowledge wasn't widely disseminated. It's far from an indicator that a group has intermarried. For example, Agamemnon posted results of his half Krymchak/half Ashkenazi relatives and they came out more Levantine than Ashkenazim. Yet, they also were in need of a Rabbi at one point. That's where Medini came in. Bukharian Jews don't have much Central Asian admixture, yet they were also in need of a Rabbi, till Rabbi Maimon found them. It makes perfect sense that few Rabbis would exist after the inquisition, regardless of marriage patterns. It should really be intuitive that the Rabbinical types were more likely to leave Iberia during the inquisition.