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rms2
05-15-2018, 05:19 PM
. . . You know that in Spain, France and Portugal, the interest in genetics is relative because we don`t have the same concerns that North Americans, and it is scary that genetic knowledge is used for racist purposes . . .

To what "racist purposes" are you referring?

Who here is using genetic knowledge for racist purposes?

You seem to be implying that the people of Spain, France and Portugal aren't that concerned with genetics because they aren't as racist as North Americans are.

Maybe that isn't what you meant, but what you really meant isn't quite clear, and there have been people here at Anthrogenica in the recent past who were pretty free with baseless charges of racism.

Accepting the steppe hypothesis doesn't make one a fascist.

R.Rocca
05-15-2018, 05:20 PM
Nobody answered my question that was about england but can be extended to al WC Europe. How is that we still score so high in EEF and WHG if we were wiped out from the kurgans?

Bronze Age Celts from Britain looked exactly like Central European Bell Beaker both autosomally and Y-DNA wise. They did not resemble Iberian Chalcolithics nor Remedello samples. Their mixture was Yamnaya plus Globular Amphorae Culture (which had high levels of EEF and WHG). This is all very clear by the Olalde paper and the results have been replicated many times by other on this and other sites. I don't mean for this question to sound harsh because it is not meant to be, but you have read the Olalde paper, right?

ADW_1981
05-15-2018, 05:42 PM
ADW_1981

Interesting observation…..you are perfectly right ….back then maybe imposing one's own language was not linked to some kind of imperialism as us western are accustomed nowadays and in the last centuries of european expansion. Anglosphere, Francophonie, Hispanidad are so linked with former colonialism that we too often tend to see the past with the mindset of european expansionism of modern and contemporary era

Now taking for a moment for granted the demic diffusion of R1b and R1a steppe raiders in central western europe how can we be so confident that this movement triggered a language shift ( I know mockery and derision will follow) given that
1) before this push eastward the steppe were under the influence of BKMC for almost a thousand year and the cultural influence of the big culture ( sad always so underrated) of CT. What if the steppe people already took the IE language from them before expanding west ( and east to SC Asia)?
2) as said before maybe they were not so interested to impose a language but rather to have a political power, looting and plundering ( as nomad people are used to wherever they go). A similar scenario happened in early medieval europe. Franks Longobards and Visigoths all plundered Italy, France and Spain they wiped away local elites, took the power but completely adapted to language and culture of the defeated part. Think about that.

Nobody answered my question that was about england but can be extended to al WC Europe. How is that we still score so high in EEF and WHG if we were wiped out from the kurgans?

Often the language of the administration determines the language. That's not always the case but seems to be with settlements of the Americas, Spanish, English, and French. I believe it can be argued that this was the same with Latin to some degree, but in the case of England once the Romans withdrew, it probably never took hold with the common population. Every case is different.

When we are talking about 3000-2500 BC, it may have been taught at home with the women who were raising the children (gasp!). This is different than the kind of administration we think of today in my previous examples, it's far more primitive. The Central European BB have more "steppe" derived female lineages than that of Iberia, so it's likely that IE was still learned at home.

People must have been mating from different groups that didn't necessarily speak the same language, there are plenty of non-verbal cues.

Celt_??
05-15-2018, 06:39 PM
Indians or Iranians everywhere, and now a Basque (once more ...) , what else tomorrow? Some afro-supremacists perhaps? A russian follower of Klejn (and of "Baltic über Alles"). Some old "biblists" (unlikely,as the last ones are on 23&me's forum)? Something funnily new would be a french turning ethno-nationalist after having read somewhere that southern France is the craddle of P312 ... but the chance of that ever happening is very small, unfortunately.
Seriously, it's exhausting.

What prolongs the nightmare is answering the assertions of new members! Older, experienced members answering questions is wonderful and helpful and educational for the form. But the endless arguments are a waste of time for everyone attempting to learn something from this thread.

My personal wish (having observed this for a couple years) would be that experienced members simply refuse be be drawn into arguments. It's similar to the problem we have in the USA with robotic phone calls to our cellphones (advertisements and financial frauds). The worse thing to do is to answer the phone - the best, just to let the phone ring if it is not a call from a "contact". If you answer, the robotic computer then knows its a valid number and will call you again and again ;~) JMHO

GASKA
05-15-2018, 06:47 PM
Romilius, Regarding the few science, don`t worry, if you are interested, I will send you the links, with the news that will be produced in the future, what happens is that the vast majority of the works are not translated into English (archaelogical excavations, doctoral theses). Regarding the politics, keep calm, who does not prefer the forest of the Pyrenees, to the Russian steppes, it is simply a matter of landscape.

Rms2, Can you imagine a political system classifying its citizens depending on their Y-Haplogroup? That is the fear that exists in Europe, the political use of genetics, and believe me, Basques know a lot about that. I suppose that North Americans are more concerned about the genetics, because you don`t have at your disposal the Parish archives that we have and that allow us to advance in our genealogy many generations. Supporting the theory of the steppes does not make you anything, but accepts, that especially in Western Europe, there are many people who do not think like you. To progress, there must be controversy, the only thought is never good.

jdean
05-15-2018, 06:58 PM
Romilius, Regarding the few science, don`t worry, if you are interested, I will send you the links, with the news that will be produced in the future, what happens is that the vast majority of the works are not translated into English (archaelogical excavations, doctoral theses). Regarding the politics, keep calm, who does not prefer the forest of the Pyrenees, to the Russian steppes, it is simply a matter of landscape.

Rms2, Can you imagine a political system classifying its citizens depending on their Y-Haplogroup? That is the fear that exists in Europe, the political use of genetics, and believe me, Basques know a lot about that. I suppose that North Americans are more concerned about the genetics, because you don`t have at your disposal the Parish archives that we have and that allow us to advance in our genealogy many generations. Supporting the theory of the steppes does not make you anything, but accepts, that especially in Western Europe, there are many people who do not think like you. To progress, there must be controversy, the only thought is never good.

If you've got links post away, this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News) is a good place for news items, and help with translations is always appreciated by those of us not blessed with more than one language : )

Romilius
05-15-2018, 09:02 PM
Romilius, Regarding the few science, don`t worry, if you are interested, I will send you the links, with the news that will be produced in the future, what happens is that the vast majority of the works are not translated into English (archaelogical excavations, doctoral theses). Regarding the politics, keep calm, who does not prefer the forest of the Pyrenees, to the Russian steppes, it is simply a matter of landscape.

Rms2, Can you imagine a political system classifying its citizens depending on their Y-Haplogroup? That is the fear that exists in Europe, the political use of genetics, and believe me, Basques know a lot about that. I suppose that North Americans are more concerned about the genetics, because you don`t have at your disposal the Parish archives that we have and that allow us to advance in our genealogy many generations. Supporting the theory of the steppes does not make you anything, but accepts, that especially in Western Europe, there are many people who do not think like you. To progress, there must be controversy, the only thought is never good.

I'm sorry, but it's like to deal with an 11 y.o. child now: to share knowledge with everyone is a savoir-faire norm in scientific fields. If you post a heavy assertion, then you also have the burden of proof, for example providing enough bibliography to support it. Just to underline once more that I see more politics than science in your and your companions' assertions.

Then, archaeological excavations say only half the story of people... the other half is genetic data: look at the Beaker complex: thanks to genetics, we know that there were two different Beaker cultures. So, I repeat: if you know genetic data we aren't aware of... then, it's a good behaviour to share those data and discuss.

As for your last sentence... it speaks for itself: it's not a matter of what do you prefer or not... it's a matter of science. And, of course, I won't ever know what kind of pride leads supporters of some peoples only founding their strenght and prestige on the fact they are a relic people more ancient than others... We aren't anymore in the 500 BC, when to be more ancient than others was the only way conquered people had to save dignity when they face only defeat.

Dante Alighieri, the greatest Italian poet, said that it's not the ancestry that makes noble individuals, but individuals that make noble ancestry.

GASKA
05-15-2018, 09:55 PM
Well Romilius, the Spaniards says "The nobles are like potatoes, everything good is underground".

Don`t worry, if you are truly interested we will share scientific advances. I also see more politics and prejudices than science in your companions' assertions.

You just did a heavy assertion, "look at the Beaker complex, thanks to genetics (I suppose Olalde et al.) we know that there were two different Beaker cultures" We think that there is only One Beaker Culture in Western Europe, with different forms of ceramics and decoration tecniques. The only difference is the Haplogroup Y (and autosomal Dna) of the men (in somes cases also women and children) who were buried with it. Or may be you think that the different genetic makeup of individuals prevents them from sharing a culture?

anglesqueville
05-15-2018, 10:16 PM
What prolongs the nightmare is answering the assertions of new members! Older, experienced members answering questions is wonderful and helpful and educational for the form. But the endless arguments are a waste of time for everyone attempting to learn something from this thread.

My personal wish (having observed this for a couple years) would be that experienced members simply refuse be be drawn into arguments. It's similar to the problem we have in the USA with robotic phone calls to our cellphones (advertisements and financial frauds). The worse thing to do is to answer the phone - the best, just to let the phone ring if it is not a call from a "contact". If you answer, the robotic computer then knows its a valid number and will call you again and again ;~) JMHO

100% agree, and furthermore we are now on this thread very far from Saxony-Anhalt.

rms2
05-15-2018, 11:20 PM
Well Romilius, the Spaniards says "The nobles are like potatoes, everything good is underground".

Don`t worry, if you are truly interested we will share scientific advances. I also see more politics and prejudices than science in your companions' assertions.

No, you don't. You are the only one here whose posts have the aroma of ethnic pride.



You just did a heavy assertion, "look at the Beaker complex, thanks to genetics (I suppose Olalde et al.) we know that there were two different Beaker cultures" We think that there is only One Beaker Culture in Western Europe, with different forms of ceramics and decoration tecniques. The only difference is the Haplogroup Y (and autosomal Dna) of the men (in somes cases also women and children) who were buried with it. Or may be you think that the different genetic makeup of individuals prevents them from sharing a culture?

Romilius is right, and if you had been here a little longer, you would have seen all the posts over the last few years explaining why that is so.

Everyone else must pardon me for repeating myself, but here goes. The earliest Iberian Bell Beaker people, if they truly were the first Bell Beaker people, which I heartily doubt, buried their dead in collective Neolithic tombs, without the warrior's kit of weapons, horse bones, etc., that often accompany Kurgan Bell Beaker burials. The earliest Iberian Bell Beaker people were short in stature, with long heads and gracile skeletons. They buried their dead like Neolithic farmers and they were like Neolithic farmers physically.

Kurgan Bell Beaker people, on the other hand, buried their important dead in single graves in pits under round burial mounds. Often the pits were stone- or timber-lined and the mounds surrounded by a stone cromlech and surmounted by a stone anthropomorphic stela. A warrior's kit of weapons and other artifacts accompanied the important dead into the afterlife. Kurgan Bell Beaker people, especially the men, were tall for the period, had robust skeletons, and tended to have round heads.

We knew all that long before we had any Bell Beaker dna, and some of us were pointing it out and predicting that the dna of the early Iberian Bell Beaker people would differ significantly from that of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. Olalde et al came along and vindicated us on that score.

rms2
05-16-2018, 12:10 AM
. . .

When we are talking about 3000-2500 BC, it may have been taught at home with the women who were raising the children (gasp!). This is different than the kind of administration we think of today in my previous examples, it's far more primitive. The Central European BB have more "steppe" derived female lineages than that of Iberia, so it's likely that IE was still learned at home . . .

Keep in mind that in ancient tribal societies, a foreign bride who went to live with her husband's family would not dare teach his children her native language in place of or in addition to his. In patrilocal cultures, it's the groom's language and culture which prevail.

I have posted this before, but it's from page 153 of Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:



But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation.


According to Tassi et al, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages, 2017, the mtDNA profile of GAC was closest to Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from Corded Ware, Srubnaya, and Yamnaya. So it looks like Kurgan Bell Beaker men were taking wives from among the GAC people rather than from other steppe pastoralists. Those GAC women weren't teaching Kurgan Bell Beaker children to speak their GAC language. Probably they were learning to speak IE themselves and struggling to be "hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores".



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).

rms2
05-16-2018, 12:29 AM
Going back for a moment to Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker, I knew there was something in the back of my mind that made me smile when I posted about I5665/RISE911, that R1b-P312 Kurgan Bell Beaker man.

Here's the note I have about him:

I5665/RISE911, an R1b-P312 from El Virgazal (Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Spain), 2281–1985 BC, had considerable steppe dna. What is interesting is that El Virgazal sounds like a classic round BB kurgan.

Here's the description from page 17 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info:

El Virgazal is a non-megalithic burial mound built in the later third millennium BCE, well into the Copper Age. It is located in the margin of a highland, 300 m above the Rudrón river, one of the tributaries of the Ebro, offering an extensive view and a 360º panorama. The mound is circular; 12 m in diameter and 1 m high. A massive limestone block in the eastern area of the mound stands upright as a milestone or a stela.

The burial contained three stone wristguards. Archer's wristguards are relatively uncommon in Iberian BB and much more common in non-Iberian BB burials.

ADW_1981
05-16-2018, 02:30 AM
Romilius, Regarding the few science, don`t worry, if you are interested, I will send you the links, with the news that will be produced in the future, what happens is that the vast majority of the works are not translated into English (archaelogical excavations, doctoral theses). Regarding the politics, keep calm, who does not prefer the forest of the Pyrenees, to the Russian steppes, it is simply a matter of landscape.

Rms2, Can you imagine a political system classifying its citizens depending on their Y-Haplogroup? That is the fear that exists in Europe, the political use of genetics, and believe me, Basques know a lot about that. I suppose that North Americans are more concerned about the genetics, because you don`t have at your disposal the Parish archives that we have and that allow us to advance in our genealogy many generations. Supporting the theory of the steppes does not make you anything, but accepts, that especially in Western Europe, there are many people who do not think like you. To progress, there must be controversy, the only thought is never good.

V88 is descended from a Villabrunan type of ancestor, M269+ is derived from a steppe ancestor. Very simple.

Romilius
05-16-2018, 05:28 AM
Well Romilius, the Spaniards says "The nobles are like potatoes, everything good is underground".

Don`t worry, if you are truly interested we will share scientific advances. I also see more politics and prejudices than science in your companions' assertions.

You just did a heavy assertion, "look at the Beaker complex, thanks to genetics (I suppose Olalde et al.) we know that there were two different Beaker cultures" We think that there is only One Beaker Culture in Western Europe, with different forms of ceramics and decoration tecniques. The only difference is the Haplogroup Y (and autosomal Dna) of the men (in somes cases also women and children) who were buried with it. Or may be you think that the different genetic makeup of individuals prevents them from sharing a culture?

As you prefer: we have a Bell Beaker culture in Iberia and a different one, name it John Smith, in Central-Eastern Europe with different traits.

They don't share culture: they had a totally different culture: only pots were similar. Other traits are different and linking the two groups to different religions, cultures, values, et cetera.

So, the only difference isn't the Y haplogroup... but a big package of knowledge that Rms2 summarized well.

So... where are links to those scientific advances you are talking about? I'm waiting to those links, because I'm truly interested.

And, of course, they aren't my companions: I'm not even haplogroup R1b, but G2a... so, do you know how much I care if R1b is from the steppe or from Mars? Nothing...

GASKA
05-16-2018, 06:17 AM
http://webs.ucm.es/info/arqueoweb/pdf/11/vazquezcuesta.pdf.

Rms2- I send you this study about the Bell Beaker culture in the Tagus Valley. As you can imagine, there are dozens of this studies on all the Spanish regions, but you can get an idea of how complicated it is to simplify how you do it. There are burials in mounds, pits, natural caves, artificial caves, hypogea, cists, dolmens, and they can be collective, triple, double, individual (NOT only in neolithic collective tombs). In the same villages different people coexist, that later had turned out to have different Y-Haplogroups and NO distinctions were made in their offerings or types of burials when they died. I don`t Know any study about measurements or classifications of iberian skeletons, surely you can send us one to compare the different types. I hope this is exhaustive, because only in Spain there are more than 6.000 chalcolithic skeletons registered. By the way you will see that the stone wrisguards are relatively abundant.

Romilius- Congratulations, you have to communicate to the International Scientific Community your discovery of a new culture in Europe, and try to explain that despite the pots, the copper arrowheads, stone wristguards, ivory buttons, copper daggers etc...we are facing different cultures, they were surely very interested in your explanations. You notice that you are not interested in the origin of R1b, otherwise, you would have reported better. Now I understan why in your first post, you talked about nightmare

etrusco
05-16-2018, 06:31 AM
V88 is descended from a Villabrunan type of ancestor, M269+ is derived from a steppe ancestor. Very simple.

Nope Villabruna is the grand-grand-grand-grand father of both Samara and western europe R1b......if R1b in Central Western europe is from the steppe these guys were simply coming home to pay a visit......

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 06:49 AM
V88 is descended from a Villabrunan type of ancestor, M269+ is derived from a steppe ancestor. Very simple.

Nope Villabruna is the grand-grand-grand-grand father of both Samara and western europe R1b......if R1b in Central Western europe is from the steppe these guys were simply coming home to pay a visit......

Not sure you are serious. If you are just ironic, my post is needless. Am I the only one who is exasperated by people who deal with an Y haplotype as it was a human individual? The fact is that we don't know if the actual "Villabruna" (don't recall how many individuals. Three?) are the actual ancestors of anybody. It's not even proved that the lineage of the actual "Villabruna" has survived the Dryas.

GASKA
05-16-2018, 07:19 AM
Hello Richard, I don`t know if you are aware of this work, but I think it may be important, because it is a unique case in Iberia. We have been interested in that man`s DNA at the University of Valladolid, but I don`t know if they will succesful with the test. In any case by its antiquity (2.400 B.C), it can be the link with the Corded Ware Culture, and other European regions. http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/article/viewArticle/8. Sorry but I have not found English translation.

etrusco
05-16-2018, 08:33 AM
anglesqueville

Villabruna went west and africa with R1b V-88 ( as said also by AW_1981) north east with M-73 and east to balkans and beyond as M-269. Agree?

etrusco
05-16-2018, 08:33 AM
also in the middle east as R1 V-88

jdean
05-16-2018, 09:24 AM
anglesqueville

Villabruna went west and africa with R1b V-88 ( as said also by AW_1981) north east with M-73 and east to balkans and beyond as M-269. Agree?

Disagree, Villabruna was too young to be the origin of any of these branches let alone all of them, his particular twig withered.

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 10:23 AM
Anyway ( but once more completely off topic, I apologize Richard), in sentences like "Villabruna went to somewhere", or "Villabruna is the ancestor of ..", the name "Villabruna" is for ... what? An haplotype, an individual, a lineage, a population, something else? "Sharing ancestors with", and "being a descendant of", are not the same. Of course everybody knows that, but I'm afraid that the vagueness of certain formulations is carefully maintained in order to maintain some fables, like the fable of Europe repopulated from an iberian or an italian refugium. We know very well where were the humans between the Dryas and the beginning of the mesolithic. They were where the Big Game was, namely where we find the surviving megafauna, the microblades industry, etc. Everyone should read Kuzmin (for example "Chronological Framework of the Siberian Paleolithic: Recent Achievements and Future Directions" 2007, and "Dynamics of Siberian Paleolithic Complexes (Based on Analysis of Radiocarbon Records): the 2012 State of Art", 2012) and forget once and for all the south european mythic refugia. Our paleolithic eurasiatic ( note the two adjectives!) ancestors lived mostly in Siberia, and nowhere else. As all the R1 haplotypes ultimately are descendants of the Mal'ta haplotype, likely born in south-central Siberia, I'm at least tempted to conjecture that what I've told about eurasiatic populations is true as well about at least the first clades of R1. Now where is born R1b-L11, as it is afaik the topic of this thread? Who knows? But I promise that if one day someone can prove that L11 is born in western Europe I'll eat my hat , even without ale. I'm not really worried about that.

Ruderico
05-16-2018, 11:02 AM
Wait, isn't Villabruna's branch of R1b (R-L754) separate from that which ended up developing M269?

Romilius
05-16-2018, 11:17 AM
http://webs.ucm.es/info/arqueoweb/pdf/11/vazquezcuesta.pdf.

Rms2- I send you this study about the Bell Beaker culture in the Tagus Valley. As you can imagine, there are dozens of this studies on all the Spanish regions, but you can get an idea of how complicated it is to simplify how you do it. There are burials in mounds, pits, natural caves, artificial caves, hypogea, cists, dolmens, and they can be collective, triple, double, individual (NOT only in neolithic collective tombs). In the same villages different people coexist, that later had turned out to have different Y-Haplogroups and NO distinctions were made in their offerings or types of burials when they died. I don`t Know any study about measurements or classifications of iberian skeletons, surely you can send us one to compare the different types. I hope this is exhaustive, because only in Spain there are more than 6.000 chalcolithic skeletons registered. By the way you will see that the stone wrisguards are relatively abundant.

Romilius- Congratulations, you have to communicate to the International Scientific Community your discovery of a new culture in Europe, and try to explain that despite the pots, the copper arrowheads, stone wristguards, ivory buttons, copper daggers etc...we are facing different cultures, they were surely very interested in your explanations. You notice that you are not interested in the origin of R1b, otherwise, you would have reported better. Now I understan why in your first post, you talked about nightmare

Of course... As you want... I don't want to deal with your childish way to answer.

Olalde's paper show that what we call Bell beaker culture wasn't so unified as we used to think. Another thing: only pots were similar between western and easter Bell beaker... The full blown package developed in Iberia only After a certain date. Olalde's papier show that samples from that period are similar to Eastern Bell beaker and are new in Iberia.

Then, think about what do you want. I rely Upon papers, not Upon an agenda filled with national basque pride.

rms2
05-16-2018, 11:21 AM
The Villabruna cluster mostly belonged to y-dna haplogroup I. The one skeleton commonly known as "Villabruna" was R1b-L754, not even derived for L388, let alone P297. Given that most of the R1b in central and western Europe from before Bell Beaker has turned out to be R1b-V88, which is L388+ but P297-, Villabruna may have been related to that branch, but odds are he represents a completely dead end, an extinct line. Eurasian hunter-gatherers wandered widely in search of game. Finding a stray one a bit north of the headwaters of the Adriatic isn't all that surprising.

There was another hunter-gatherer R1b-L754 from Iboussieres, France, c. 10090-9460 BC, also not even derived for L388, let alone P297.

Now, if those two hunter-gatherers prove that R1b-M269 is of western origin, where is all the R1b we should be finding in Neolithic European remains? Thus far the only European R1b finds from that period, and there are few of them, have been R1b-V88, which appears to be the westernmost form of R1b, as well as the southernmost.

Meanwhile, P297 shows up in Latvia (in northEASTERN Europe) in some Mesolithic hunter-gatherers there who were high in EHG. I'm guessing their ancestors came northwest to the Baltic via some Russian river valleys.

Needless to say, R1b-M269 is a subclade of P297. Thus far, it is missing from Europe west of the Dniester until the third millennium BC, when it shows up suddenly in Vucedol, Proto-Nagyrev, and Kurgan Bell Beaker, all thought to be steppe-derived cultures.

jdean
05-16-2018, 11:26 AM
Wait, isn't Villabruna's branch of R1b (R-L754) separate from that which ended up developing M269?

R-l754 is upstream of both V88 and M269 but the TMRCA is estimated to be about 17,000 yrs ago and Villabruna died about 14,000 years ago so about 3000 yrs too late to have had anything to do with any known modern branch of R1b

etrusco
05-16-2018, 11:40 AM
anglesqueville

With Villabruna I think is intended a southern european refuge for R1b population in general without any nationalistic-ethnic connotation. It is just to simplify.

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 11:42 AM
Nothing to add, forget Villabruna. And about the south-Europe human refugia post LGM, I would be happy (no irony) is someone could link to complete texts (with radiocarbon datations, records of artefacts, etc).
edit: I've already told what is my intuition (fuelled by my readings of the russian archeology) about "R1b" after the LGM and even more aftr the Dryas. The "Arbins" ( the bearers of R1b, the word is of Klyosov. Klyosov has told much nonsense, but the word is nice) were not busy waiting for better days somewhere in south-Europe, they were hunting the Mammoth allover the siberian corridor.

rms2
05-16-2018, 11:52 AM
anglesqueville

With Villabruna I think is intended a southern european refuge for R1b population in general without any nationalistic-ethnic connotation. It is just to simplify.

The problem with that is that all the other males with whom the one R1b Villabrunan formed a cluster were y haplogroup I, mostly I2. So it looks like he was the odd man out.

Here's another thing: If there were a southern European R1b refuge, what should we expect to see in subsequent ages? Some more R1b, right, like some in the Neolithic Period at least? Shouldn't we be seeing that, after R1b emerged from its southern European refuge at the end of the LGM and spread out across Europe?

There is some Mesolithic R1b-V88 near the Iron Gates, and thus far R1b-V88 has been the only kind of R1b to show up in Europe west of the Dniester before Vucedol, etc.

GASKA
05-16-2018, 02:35 PM
I see this conversation has turned into a debate about the origin of R1b.

All started with "V88 descended from a Villabruna type of ancestor, M269 is derived from a steppe ancestor. Very simple". Then Rms2 has kindly clarify the situation, saying that Villabruna and Iboussieres (10.090-9.460 B.C), are R1b L754, and that both could be the ancestors of R1b M269, but that this is unlikely, because nothing has been found in the Western European Neolithic. I think that nothing has been found between MA1-Mal`ta R* -(Lake Baikal-Siberia-22.000 B.C) and Villabruna, and yet, we all know that R1b-L754 is a descendant of MA1, or one of his relatives, right? I mean as long the possibility exists, however remote, science must value the fact of a Western origin of R1b-M269. Only ancient DNA will get us out of doubt.

Meanwhile, Anglesqueville Know very well, where were the humans between the Dryas and the beginning of the Mesolithic (hunting Megafauna in Siberia), so he could certainly explain us, who painted the caves of Altamira and Lascaux, because I studied that they were painted during the Paleolithic in the Franco-Cantabrian refuge. Its a pity that the hunter-gatherer R1b L754 didn`t do it, because they became extinct, or went to the east to hunt mammoths.

Ruderico
05-16-2018, 02:49 PM
So, what is your point? This topic is about the ("eastern") Bell Beakers and where the culture arose first, I fail to see where any of this last conversation is related to the actual topic.

ADW_1981
05-16-2018, 03:10 PM
V88 is descended from a Villabrunan type of ancestor, M269+ is derived from a steppe ancestor. Very simple.

Nope Villabruna is the grand-grand-grand-grand father of both Samara and western europe R1b......if R1b in Central Western europe is from the steppe these guys were simply coming home to pay a visit......

Nope, take a look at the data collected so far and the phylogeny. R1b->L754 (xV88) is in Villabruna, but there is already an Asian cluster R1b-M278(xL754) that has an Central Asian distribution and has turned up in at least 3 Huns. Coupled with other data we have, it seems likely R1b is from Central Asia, and is linked to ANE ancestry.

Yes, R1b is old in Europe but there is nothing to support M269+ deriving within western or central Europe when you look at things holistically.

GASKA
05-16-2018, 03:11 PM
Ruderico, If you ask me, I will tell you that while the geneticists and the autosomal dna experts say that the oldest cases of R1b-L11 have been found in Saxony, until proven otherwise, we all (R1b-P312), have our origin in Germany.

ADW_1981
05-16-2018, 03:18 PM
Wait, isn't Villabruna's branch of R1b (R-L754) separate from that which ended up developing M269?

I believe it goes L754>L389>P297>M269

and L754>V88 (Villabruna was likely ancestrally similar to the lucky guy who was V88)

However, there is an even earlier split that is more eastern which is xL754 and is primarily in the east, especially Central Asian and among at least 3 Huns discovered to date.

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 03:18 PM
^^ GASKA: Altamira and Lascaux, well.. do you have anything after the Dryas, more precisely anything massive enough to support the threadbare picture of Europe repopulated from an iberian source? In any event the greatest part of the continent did not need to be repopulated from southern Europe, just because it did not need to be repopulated. In a text published in 2015 (" Human population dynamics in Europe over the Last Glacial Maximum") Miikka Tallavaara wrote :


(...) the climate envelope of the hunter-gatherers has remained relatively constant from the last glacial to present. Millennia of cultural evolution have not fundamentally changed constraints on terrestrially adapted hunter-gatherer populations posed by the climate. Third, even the harsh conditions of the LGM sustained a substantial human population in Europe, which was not fragmented to totally isolated refugia. The continuous range would have facilitated a flow of genes and cultural information between the western and eastern parts of the continent, which, in turn, has implications for understanding genetic diversity and cultural evolution in Europe

These words summarize very well what I think. That said, all that has very few to do with the topic of this thread, and I would understand it if the OP ended up getting angry. Therefore for me the game will end here.

jeanL
05-16-2018, 05:26 PM
Going back for a moment to Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker, I knew there was something in the back of my mind that made me smile when I posted about I5665/RISE911, that R1b-P312 Kurgan Bell Beaker man.

Here's the note I have about him:

I5665/RISE911, an R1b-P312 from El Virgazal (Tablada de Rudrón, Burgos, Spain), 2281–1985 BC, had considerable steppe dna. What is interesting is that El Virgazal sounds like a classic round BB kurgan.

Here's the description from page 17 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Info:

El Virgazal is a non-megalithic burial mound built in the later third millennium BCE, well into the Copper Age. It is located in the margin of a highland, 300 m above the Rudrón river, one of the tributaries of the Ebro, offering an extensive view and a 360º panorama. The mound is circular; 12 m in diameter and 1 m high. A massive limestone block in the eastern area of the mound stands upright as a milestone or a stela.

The burial contained three stone wristguards. Archer's wristguards are relatively uncommon in Iberian BB and much more common in non-Iberian BB burials.

Interesting!

[1] "distance=4.0389%"

Beaker_Iberia:I15665

Iberian_EN, 64.2
WHG, 17.8
Yamnaya_Samara, 8.8
Armenia_EBA, 4.6
Levant_N, 1.8
Tepecik_Ciftlik_N, 1.6
Ganj_Dareh_N, 0.6
Shar_I_Sokhta_BA3, 0.4
Han, 0.2

Yup, what a considerable amount of Steppe DNA! Let see pre-Steppe European components: 64.2%-Iberian_EN+17.8% WHG+1.8%-Levant_N+1.6%-Tepecik_Ciftlik_N=85.4%

Let that sink in.

Romilius
05-16-2018, 06:02 PM
Interesting!

[1] "distance=4.0389%"

Beaker_Iberia:I1556

Iberian_EN, 64.2
WHG, 17.8
Yamnaya_Samara, 8.8
Armenia_EBA, 4.6
Levant_N, 1.8
Tepecik_Ciftlik_N, 1.6
Ganj_Dareh_N, 0.6
Shar_I_Sokhta_BA3, 0.4
Han, 0.2

Yup, what a considerable amount of Steppe DNA! Let see pre-Steppe European components: 64.2%-Iberian_EN+17.8% WHG+1.8%-Levant_N+1.6%-Tepecik_Ciftlik_N=85.4%

Let that sink in.

I can't find that I1556 sample...

Age? Male or female? Haplogroups? Area?

vettor
05-16-2018, 06:19 PM
Villabruna is found near Feltre, Veneto in Italy ............his path into Italy as I recall was along the areas of the Sava/Drava river junction...north balkans.

He would belong to the ancient Dolomite mountain people who later became the rhaetians /ladin

GASKA
05-16-2018, 06:22 PM
Thank you jeanL. Beautiful flags. Of course is interesting, although, I will never understand how it is possible to Know those autosomal components so defined by regions. I5665. Male 25-45 years old, collective burial (total -5 males), Two 74 mm gold plates, Triad of Bell Beaker ceramic type Ciempozuelos, 3 stone wristguards, 1 ivory button. Mitochondrial Haplogroup K1a (documented in Spain since the Neolithic). Although he was a "Kurgan Iberian Bell Beaker" with ancestors in the steppes, his mother and his maternal family would be iberian. Or perhaps P312 had several generations established in the province of Burgos. Who Knows? Un saludo para la Florida

jeanL
05-16-2018, 06:43 PM
I can't find that I1556 sample...

Age? Male or female? Haplogroups? Area?

It was a typo; it is the one rms2 was referring to:

I5665/RISE911

I did not run it on the laptop from which I was posting and thus mis-copied it. Do any qAdm or nMonte run on the I5665/RISE911 fellow and you will see that his Steppe input does not supersede 15%; moreover if you include Malak-Prevalest the Balkans pre-Steppe populations; it can be modeled without Yamnaya admixture.

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 06:48 PM
"Do any qAdm ..." I did:

left pops:
Beaker_Iberia_I5665
Yamnaya_Samara
Iberia_MNChL

best coefficients: 0.207 0.793
std. errors: 0.050 0.050

chisq tail prob
8.616 0.801286

Camulogène Rix
05-16-2018, 07:03 PM
"Do any qAdm ..." I did:

left pops:
Beaker_Iberia_I5665
Yamnaya_Samara
Iberia_MNChL

best coefficients: 0.207 0.793
std. errors: 0.050 0.050

chisq tail prob
8.616 0.801286

Df 27, isn't it?

Romilius
05-16-2018, 07:34 PM
Thank you jeanL. Beautiful flags. Of course is interesting, although, I will never understand how it is possible to Know those autosomal components so defined by regions. I5665. Male 25-45 years old, collective burial (total -5 males), Two 74 mm gold plates, Triad of Bell Beaker ceramic type Ciempozuelos, 3 stone wristguards, 1 ivory button. Mitochondrial Haplogroup K1a (documented in Spain since the Neolithic). Although he was a "Kurgan Iberian Bell Beaker" with ancestors in the steppes, his mother and his maternal family would be iberian. Or perhaps P312 had several generations established in the province of Burgos. Who Knows? Un saludo para la Florida

It isn't a collective burial, but a family burial.

And, of course, Olalde's paper offer it as at least 30% steppe, if I remember well. So, why on the Earth people have to take for Gospel JeanL analysis and not Olalde's one? I remember Olalde is an academic with huge references.

Romilius
05-16-2018, 07:37 PM
It was a typo; it is the one rms2 was referring to:

I5665/RISE911

I did not run it on the laptop from which I was posting and thus mis-copied it. Do any qAdm or nMonte run on the I5665/RISE911 fellow and you will see that his Steppe input does not supersede 15%; moreover if you include Malak-Prevalest the Balkans pre-Steppe populations; it can be modeled without Yamnaya admixture.

As I wrote up there, Olalde posted it as something like 30% steppe... so.,.

jeanL
05-16-2018, 07:41 PM
"Do any qAdm ..." I did:

left pops:
Beaker_Iberia_I5665
Yamnaya_Samara
Iberia_MNChL

best coefficients: 0.207 0.793
std. errors: 0.050 0.050

chisq tail prob
8.616 0.801286

Yeah the standard error is 5% so still the 15% Steppe is within the standard error. Here is the nMonte3 run including Iberia_MN:

[1] "distance%=3.2765"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Malak_Preslavets,29
Iberia_Southwest_CA,10.4
Ukraine_Eneolithic,9.2
Iberia_MN,9
Portugal_MN,7.4
Iberia_ChL,7.2
Iberia_Central_CA,7
Blatterhole_HG,6.8
Yamnaya_Samara,4.4
Anatolia_ChL,3
Armenia_ChL,3
France_MLN,2.8
Clovis,0.8

Here is another run removing some populations but leaving the immediate predecessors and a Malak_Preslavets.

[1] "distance%=3.0683"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Malak_Preslavets,33.4
Iberia_Southwest_CA,26
Iberia_ChL,20.4
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Blatterhole_HG,7.4
Clovis,1.2

Note that the distance improved. Leaving only Iberian_Chl populations and Yamnaya:

[1] "distance%=3.9222"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Iberia_ChL,78
Yamnaya_Samara,15.4
Blatterhole_HG,4.6
Clovis,1
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.6
Iberomaurusian,0.4

Note that the fit became a bit worse. So once again showing Yamnaya to be ~15%; which is consistent with your estimate using qAdm. Add WHG to it and see what comes back.

jeanL
05-16-2018, 07:57 PM
As I wrote up there, Olalde posted it as something like 30% steppe... so.,.

Olalde.et.al.2018 Table-S4 supplementary info page 167-212

Test Steppe_EBA SE Anatolia_N SE WHG SE P-value

BK_Spain_BUR2 (3) 0.230 0.041 0.559 0.041 0.211 0.019 0.022

Note three things:

1. BK_Spain_BUR2 consist of 3 individuals not just I5665; this can be seen in page 147 of supplementary info:


...We show in Table S2 f4-statistics of the form f4(Mbuti, Test; C_Iberia_CA, BK_Spain_BUR2). Several populations are asymmetrically related to C_Iberia_CA (Central Iberia Copper Age) and BK_Spain_BUR2 (individuals I0461, I0462 and I5665).

2. The Steppe_EBA component in BK_Spain_BUR2 23.0%+-4.1%; nowhere near the 30% you claimed. So;...

3. They modeled BK_Spain_BUR2 as mixture of Steppe_EBA; Anatolia_N and WHG; whereas I am modeling them as a mixture of Iberian_MN+MN_WHG+Steppe. Iberian_MN has a higher percentage of WHG than Anatolia_N; moreover when you try to model I5665 as a mixture of Anatolia_N+Yamnaya+Steppe_EBA the fit fails on nMonte:

[1] "distance%=5.4081"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Barcin_N,62.2
WHG,21.8
Yamnaya_Samara,8.8
Armenia_EBA,3.2
Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,2.8
Levant_N,1
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,0.2

So I suggest you tune down your attacks (i.e. "Gospel of JeanL"); specially if you are not gonna take the time to read through the papers you are quoting; and make sure that you are quoting valid statements. Capish!

PS: Here is Eurogenes own estimate:

[1] distance%=3.818

Beaker_Iberia

Barcin_N,52.4
Blatterhole_HG,27.6
Yamnaya_Samara,20


Keep in mind what I mentioned about using Barcin_N and look at the values of Blatterhole_HG; and the above is an average of all Beaker genomes with Steppe from Iberia not just I5665.

Again nowhere near 30%; and if he does the run with Iberia_MN instead of Barcin_N you will see Steppe drop down to 15% at most.

anglesqueville
05-16-2018, 07:59 PM
20% with a st.err. 5%, that means between 15% and 25%. Btw the adjustment is excellent. ( tail_prob 0.8). I imagine (but not enough time for this) that it would be possible to choose a more suitable proxy for the steppe ancestry than the extrem Yamna_Samara. Seemingly you have not ended your own anti-steppe guerilla. Boring.

Romilius
05-16-2018, 08:04 PM
Olalde.et.al.2018 Table-S4 supplementary info page 167-212

Test Steppe_EBA SE Anatolia_N SE WHG SE P-value

BK_Spain_BUR2 (3) 0.230 0.041 0.559 0.041 0.211 0.019 0.022

Note three things:

1. BK_Spain_BUR2 consist of 3 individuals not just I5665; this can be seen in page 147 of supplementary info:



2. The Steppe_EBA component in BK_Spain_BUR2 23.0%+-4.1%; nowhere near the 30% you claimed. So;...

3. They modeled BK_Spain_BUR2 as mixture of Steppe_EBA; Anatolia_N and WHG; whereas I am modeling them as a mixture of Iberian_MN+MN_WHG+Steppe. Iberian_MN has a higher percentage of WHG than Anatolia_N; moreover when you try to model I5665 as a mixture of Anatolia_N+Yamnaya+Steppe_EBA the fit fails on nMonte:

[1] "distance%=5.4081"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Barcin_N,62.2
WHG,21.8
Yamnaya_Samara,8.8
Armenia_EBA,3.2
Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,2.8
Levant_N,1
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,0.2

So I suggest you tune down your attacks (i.e. "Gospel of JeanL"); specially if you are not gonna take the time to read through the papers you are quoting; and make sure that you are quoting valid statements. Capish!

So, what do you suggest? That R1b-M269 was in Iberia before the arrival of steppe admixture? I read well papers: Olalde suggests that that's not the case.

And what is that "capish"? If you are trying to imply something about italians... wrong way: I'm not a southern italian in origins.

Tune down what? So you read very well paper... but you don't read very well messages of other posters. I only said that here there are iberianist that take your analysis like gospel... nothing about JeanL Gospel and/or the passion of JeanL... Probably, you seem to overestimate the attention other people pay to you. Don't worry: for me you are just like other posters here... even if you are a little more biased than them.

jdean
05-16-2018, 08:06 PM
Yeah the standard error is 5% so still the 15% Steppe is within the standard error.

And so is 25% but what are you saying, 15 to 25% is irrelevant and should therefore be ignored ?

jeanL
05-16-2018, 08:08 PM
So, what do you suggest? That R1b-M269 was in Iberia before the arrival of steppe admixture? I read well papers: Olalde suggests that that's not the case.

And what is that "capish"? If you are trying to imply something about italians... wrong way: I'm not a southern italian in origins.

No; I'm simply showing that your claim that Iberia_Beaker was 30% Steppe is not substantiated by the Olalde paper nor is it substantiate by independent analysis. After all you were using that claim to dismiss my own independent estimates. That's as far as I'll go; I'm not going to comment on anything else.

PS: Capish is an american way of saying "OK"; it came from Sicilian Americans and no one is implying you have Southern Italian origins do not get all Lega Nord on me now. I too have distant Northern Italian roots (Genoa); you don't see me get all sensitive about it.

jeanL
05-16-2018, 08:10 PM
And so is 25% but what are you saying, 15 to 25% is irrelevant and should therefore be ignored ?

No it isn't 25%; it is closer to 15%. Read what I said and get back to me. I was going off the original comment by rms2 of considerable Steppe contributions. I would hardly call 15% a "considerable" contribution.

Webb
05-16-2018, 08:17 PM
No it isn't 25%; it is closer to 15%. Read what I said and get back to me. I was going off the original comment by rms2 of considerable Steppe contributions. I would hardly call 15% a "considerable" contribution.

I don't think his point was the amount of Steppe Contributions, but the presence of it in the P312 samples verses lack of it in the I2 samples.

jeanL
05-16-2018, 08:18 PM
BTW the Steppe contribution being less than 20% was also shown in the latest paper by Valdiosera.et.al.2018 which show that the two Bronze Age male genomes had ~15% Steppe admixture in the Supervised admixture run consisting of Anatolia_N+WHG+Steppe. Both of this samples were R1b-P312 derived with the one from Burgos being R1b-DF27.

http://i68.tinypic.com/214s2ev.png

Look at Iberia_BA in the graph above.

Source: Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1717762115)

jeanL
05-16-2018, 08:25 PM
I don't think his point was the amount of Steppe Contributions, but the presence of it in the P312 samples verses lack of it in the I2 samples.

Well in the paper I quoted above the Iberian_pre_Beaker samples do get some Yamnaya like the same supervised admixture run; this can be seen in Figure S5.3:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2Y0vmFrbB4/Wq51-jcxOiI/AAAAAAAADt4/4cA3nkPgqrk6AZScKvWONgiBc50ZibkIQCLcBGAs/s1600/Valdiosera-FS5-3.PNG

Notice the blue in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA; in fact some of the Iberian Bronze age genomes have less of the blue/Yamnaya component that the folks in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA that have the component.

I should mention that at least Iberia Beaker I5665 can be modeled as being part Malak_Preslavets at the expense of some Yamnaya admixture. These are Balkan pre-Steppe genomes and not the Malak_Preslavets genome that was substantially (~50%) Yamnaya like.


[1] "distance%=3.0683"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Malak_Preslavets,33.4
Iberia_Southwest_CA,26
Iberia_ChL,20.4
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Blatterhole_HG,7.4
Clovis,1.2

etrusco
05-16-2018, 08:26 PM
Interesting the situation in Bronze age Hungary with not so high steppe component. strange because hungarian plain was a hub for steppe "entry" into CW Europe. Hungary besides has the highest kurgan type graves in all mainland Europe AFAIK.

alan
05-16-2018, 09:13 PM
There is a huge gap in our knowledge of R. Basically 10000 years including the whole of the LGM after Malta who lived in the early LGM. We now know that some R1b had infiltrated into the largely I Gravettian c 12000BC and curiously coincides with the older Dryas cold snap.

jdean
05-16-2018, 10:14 PM
I don't think his point was the amount of Steppe Contributions, but the presence of it in the P312 samples verses lack of it in the I2 samples.

Read my mind : )


Read what I said and get back to me.

I did but perhaps you could read what I wrote ?

jeanL
05-16-2018, 10:50 PM
Maykop paper is out! More Yamnaya and Catacomb samples! 0%- R1b-L51. To be fair let's wait and see what the R1b1a2 R1b-M269 samples get defined as once the paper is released. Note that when the samples are defined in the R1b-L23+ clade they are all R1b-Z2105. Thus more Kurgan samples with R1b-Z2103+ haplogroups and R1b-L51 is still missing.



Sample Site Age, BP Culture mtDNA Y-DNA

AY2001.A0101.TF1.1 Aygurskiy 2 5271.5 Steppe Maykop T2e
AY2003.A0101.TF1.1 Aygurskiy 2 5455.5 Steppe Maykop H2a1
MK3003.A0101 Marinskaya 3 4476.5 Catacomb U4a2
MK5012.A0101 Marinskaya 5 4663.5 Catacomb U5a1b1e ?
RK4002.B0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 4610.0 Catacomb U4d3 R1b1a2
RK4001.A0101 Rasshevatskiy 4 4277.0 Catacomb U5a1i R1b1a2
SA6003.B0101 Sharakhalsun 6 4292.5 Catacomb U2e3a R1b1a2
I6278 Shepsi 5200.0 Dolmen BA T1a2 ..
I6281 Shepsi 5200.0 Dolmen BA U2e1 ..
I2051 Marchenkova Gora, D13 3260.0 Dolmen LBA H6a1a2a J
I2055 Unakozovskaya 6533.0 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a J
I2056 Unakozovskaya 6477.5 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a J2a
I1722 Unakozovskaya 6403.5 Eneolithic Caucasus R1a
PG2001 Progress 2 6207.0 Eneolithic steppe I3a R1b1
PG2004 Progress 2 6090.0 Eneolithic steppe H2 R1b1
VJ1001 Vonyuchka 1 6242.0 Eneolithic steppe T2a1b
ARM001.A0101 Kaps 5329.5 Kura-Araxes R1a1
ARM002.A0101; ARM003 Kaps 5148.0 Kura-Araxes K3 G2b
VEK006.A0101 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2
VEK007.A0101; VEK009 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2 J1
VEK008.A0101 Velikent 4850.0 Kura-Araxes U4a2 ?
MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5185.5 Late Maykop T1a2 ?
MK5004 Marinskaya 5 5171.0 Late Maykop T2al L
MK5001 Marinskaya 5 5141.5 Late Maykop K1a4 L
SIJ003.A0101 Sinyukha 5174.0 Late Maykop U4c1
SIJ002.A0101 Sinyukha 5173.5 Late Maykop U4c1 L
SIJ001.A01(SA6002.A01) Sinyukha 5125.5 Late Maykop U4c1
KBD001 Kabardinka 4036.5 Late North Caucasus I4a R1b1a2
KBD002.A0101 Kabardinka 4057.0 Late North Caucasus W1+119
NV3001 Nevinnomiskiy 3 3970.5 Lola R1b Q1a2
I1720 Baksanenok 5300.0 Maykop HV ?
MK5007.B0101 Marinskaya 5 5455.0 Maykop U5a1b1
OSS001.A0101 Nogir 3 5570.0 Maykop J2a1
I6268 Klady 5564.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya R1a J2a1
I6267 Klady 5438.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya T2c1
I6270 Klady 5434.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b ?
I6266 Klady 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya X2f J2a1
I6272 Dlinnaya Polyana 5200.0 Maykop Novosvobodnaya U1b1 G2a2a
KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt 3823.5 MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b
KDC002.A0101 Kudachurt 3734.5 MBA North Caucasus HV1a1
BU2001.A0101 Beliy Ugol 2 4674.0 North Caucasus R1b1a2a2
GW1001.A0101 Goryachevodskiy 2 4726.0 North Caucasus U2e1b R1b1a2a2
I1723 Goryachevodskiy 2 4702.0 North Caucasus U5b2a1a R1b1a1a2a
LYG001.A0101 Lysogorskaya 6 4672.0 North Caucasus H13a1a2 R1b1a2
MK5009.A0101 Marinskaya 5 4710.0 North Caucasus R1a1a R1b1a2
PG2002.A0101 Progress 2 4362.5 North Caucasus U1a1a3
RK1003.C0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 4750.5 North Caucasus R1a1a
SA6001.A0101 Sharakhalsun 6 5444.0 Steppe Maykop U7b
SA6004 Sharakhalsun 6 5170.5 Steppe Maykop U7b Q1a2
IV3002.A0101 Ipatovo 3 5206.5 Steppe Maykop outlier X1'2'3 ?
SA6013.B0101 Sharakhalsun 6 5180.0 Steppe Maykop outlier I5b R1
RK1007.A0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 5123.0 Yamnaya Caucasus T2a1
RK1001.C0101 Rasshevatskiy 1 4726.0 Yamnaya Caucasus U5a1d R1b1a2
SA6010.A0101 Sharakhalsun 6 4731.5 Yamnaya Caucasus U5a1g ?
ZO2002.C0101 Zolotarevka 2 4850.0 Yamnaya Caucasus [email protected]


As it is said in Spanish "R1b-L51 R1b1a2a1 brilla por su ausencia" in the Yamnaya samples.

PS: I got this from another user but looking at supplementary info:


We were not able to determine the haplogroups of the following samples due to low coverages: IV3002.A0101, MK5007.B0101, MK5008.B0101, MK5012.A0101, SA6010.A0101, VEK008.A0101, I1720, I1723, and I6270.

Therefore the nomenclature of I1723 is wrong; because it is meant to be R1b-L23 however that is if R1b-M269 is defined as R1b1a1a2; and R1b-V88 as R1b1a2. This is noticeable in the supplementary files were it becomes obvious that R1b1a2 is meant to be R1b-M269 and not R1b-V88. The authors should correct for this.

I1723 Goryachevodskiy 2 4702.0 North Caucasus U5b2a1a R1b1a1a2a

ADW_1981
05-16-2018, 11:36 PM
I'd wait for additional analysis on these. Based on all the data we've seen so far, it's unlikely that each and every one of these is xL23.

jeanL
05-17-2018, 12:48 AM
I'd wait for additional analysis on these. Based on all the data we've seen so far, it's unlikely that each and every one of these is xL23.

Yeah I also doubt so; especially since many of them were not tested for anything below L23; and the only one that was had one L23 derived SNP.

GASKA
05-17-2018, 08:19 AM
Let's wait for the explanations of the International Scientific Community. Sure that there are enough arguments to continue thinking that we are from the steppes. But may be the Spanish researchers were not so wrong about the origin of P312.

etrusco
05-17-2018, 09:23 AM
jdean

no R1b L-51 but I do not get which part of the steppe they are sampling.....still east of ukraine or now we are talking about the westernmost part of the steppe.

jdean
05-17-2018, 09:51 AM
jdean

no R1b L-51 but I do not get which part of the steppe they are sampling.....still east of ukraine or now we are talking about the westernmost part of the steppe.

The Steppes is a big place, one can only hope L51 will turn up eventually.

rms2
05-17-2018, 11:59 AM
If Alexei Butin is right about what he heard at that conference, L51 has already turned up at Khvalynsk.

Sorry I missed all the fireworks last night, but I was busy with a couple of big matches on Ancestry and didn't have the time for everything.

Unfortunately I am at work right now and don't have the time to read that new paper.

There are a few people who show up at Anthrogenica only now and then to vent their anti-steppe spleen. Some of them have been spectacularly wrong time and again in the past, but they are good at posting colorful graphics and obfuscating. A few of them have invested a lot of emotion in proving that R1b-L51 could not be of steppe origin. It causes them to post things they later have to walk back or explain away.

They are apparently in a similar class of ethno-nationalists as the recent spate of frenzied advocates of the south-of-the-Caucasus theory of PIE origins. For the latter group, it's Iran, Anatolia, or the south Caucasus. For the former, the Iberian motherland is the thing, and bitterness over the fact that R1b is no longer thought to have spent the LGM there. The hope is that R1b will turn out to be native to Europe west of the steppe somewhere, anywhere, just so the hated "steppists" will be proven wrong. In other words, it's all about sour grapes and hatred of those who were proven right about the FC LGM refuge.

Regarding the steppe dna in I5665 from El Virgazal, I think 15-25% steppe dna and belonging to a steppe y-dna haplogroup (P312) is a considerable thing in an Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker find, given the complete dearth of those things in early Iberian Bell Beaker and in Iberia as a whole before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

etrusco
05-17-2018, 12:32 PM
rms

Speaking for myself in full conscience I can say that my anti-steppe attitude can be fueled by the fact that being a central-southern european I'm not particularly happy of the steppe theory ( nothing wrong with that). Maybe because Italy in general has always been a net "giver" of culture and influence during history and not much a "receiver". So we are not particularly keen on recognizing cultural debts to anybody ( and this is problematic I know) But I assure you that there are still many questions and inconsistencies that the OOEE theory leaves behind and it is this that in the end is at the root of my personal opinions.

Ruderico
05-17-2018, 12:53 PM
I'm not particularly happy of the steppe theory ( nothing wrong with that). Maybe because Italy in general has always been a net "giver" of culture and influence during history and not much a "receiver". So we are not particularly keen on recognizing cultural debts to anybody

Why does the origin of peoples who died over five thousand years ago matter so much, particularly when most of our current cultural elements are much more recent? We'd all be absolute foreigners to any people who lived at those times, I sure as hell wouldn't like to be face to face with EEFs or Yamnayas

I'm Portuguese but I couldn't care less if R1b, Bell Beakers or Lusitanians were originally from here, Hungary or Iran to be perfectly honest

Romilius
05-17-2018, 01:03 PM
Why does the origin of peoples who died over five thousand years ago matter so much, particularly when most of our current cultural elements are much more recent? We'd all be absolute foreigners to any people who lived at those times, I sure as hell wouldn't like to be face to face with EEFs or Yamnayas

I'm Portuguese but I couldn't care less if R1b, Bell Beakers or Lusitanians were originally from here, Hungary or Iran to be perfectly honest

I couldn't say that better.

But... There is a 'but': for Basques is a matter of politics. Perhaps, they are more interested to be recognized as neolithic relics (I mean... Really? Then we will create anthropological museums where to show basque people as neolithic relics still alive and breathing?) than to give to the world something interesting in cultural fields.

rms2
05-17-2018, 01:03 PM
rms

Speaking for myself in full conscience I can say that my anti-steppe attitude can be fueled by the fact that being a central-southern european I'm not particularly happy of the steppe theory ( nothing wrong with that). Maybe because Italy in general has always been a net "giver" of culture and influence during history and not much a "receiver". So we are not particularly keen on recognizing cultural debts to anybody ( and this is problematic I know) But I assure you that there are still many questions and inconsistencies that the OOEE theory leaves behind and it is this that in the end is at the root of my personal opinions.

I don't doubt you, but I have been around this forum for some years and around others, like the old dna forums, before that. I have seen how things have developed over the years, and how attitudes and animosities have hardened.

If it turns out that L51 did not come from the steppe but was somehow Indo-Europeanized, I will be disappointed, but I will move on. My enthusiasm for deep ancestry and ancient genetics will be seriously dampened, and I will probably devote all my genetic genealogy hobby time to my own particular family genealogy, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

However, given all that we've seen over the last few years, I seriously doubt that is going to happen. It seems to me the anti-steppe folks are dependent on Corded Ware women for explaining away the steppe dna and Indo-European characteristics in Kurgan Bell Beaker. That strikes me as laughable, since in patrilocal tribal groups foreign brides weren't innovators or change agents. In Anthony's words, they were "hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores". Besides, BB's mtDNA is not that of Corded Ware but closer to that of GAC. So it looks like Kurgan Bell Beaker men took GAC wives, which also explains why the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker resembles GAC.

GASKA
05-17-2018, 01:14 PM
Rms2, there are many genetics fans that participate in this groups that have not nationalist pride when defending their theories. I don`t know what experiences you have had in the past but it certainly is not my case. We will wait for the experts to analyze these results in detail, and then we will talk.

But we can talk about the "Oldest Steppe Bell beakers", and I want to remind your words two days ago. "No steppe Dna and P312 in Iberia before 2.500 B.C, after the arrival of steppe DNA, plenty of both" "I5665-el Virgazal, had a lot of steppe Dna" Now it turn out that it has 15% of autosomal steppe Dna, and you still think "is a considerable thing". "The replacement of Y-Chromosomes was much more dramatic (90%)". Of course you also say that "It causes them to post things they later have to walk back or explain away"

Due to the antiquity (2.400-2.200 B.C) and the scarce Dna from the steppes found in Iberian Bell Beaker P312, it is easy to deduce that this haplogroup had already been in Iberia for a long time (100-200-300-400 years?) coexisting with the neolithic haplogroups (I2a, G, C1a). The chalcolitic in Iberia is too complicated to explain with the theory of the steppe invasions. It is too risky to do so, because most people don`t Know anything about the prehistory of Western Europe.

You have also exposed your theories about the physical characteristics of the chalcolitic iberians (stature, heads...), about the only use of collective megalithic tombs, about how the Indoeuropean invaders subjected the Basques and then lost their language. I don`t agree with anything you say and whenever you want, we calmly discuss all those things.

rms2
05-17-2018, 01:19 PM
Why does the origin of peoples who died over five thousand years ago matter so much, particularly when most of our current cultural elements are much more recent? We'd all be absolute foreigners to any people who lived at those times, I sure as hell wouldn't like to be face to face with EEFs or Yamnayas

I'm Portuguese but I couldn't care less if R1b, Bell Beakers or Lusitanians were originally from here, Hungary or Iran to be perfectly honest

I agree, but I have to admit I like the idea of being a patrilineal descendant of the early Indo-Europeans. But, if not, oh, well. Move on.

Most of the ancestors I know about came from the British Isles and Ireland to North America a long time ago. As far as I know, those places are not in the running for PIE Urheimat, the birthplace of R1b, nor even the place R1b was parked while waiting for the weather to warm up during the LGM.

I know, however, from past and present experience that there are people who were powerfully, bitterly, lastingly disappointed by the loss of the Franco-Cantabrian LGM refuge for R1b and absolutely detest the idea that R1b-M269 might have come from the hated East along with the root of so many of those dastardly non-Basque languages.

There is also a well-known individual, banned from quite a number of dna discussion venues, who maintains that R1b spent the LGM in Italy and that Italy is the ultimate source of most of the y-dna lines of Europe. I seem to recall that he also thinks R1a spent the LGM in Italy, as well, but I could be wrong about that part. I think even if every ancient corpse in all of Eurasia were unearthed and its entire genome published, he will not let the Italian Refugium go until death causes his grip to relax and larger concerns confront him.

GASKA
05-17-2018, 01:32 PM
Romilius, generalize has always been a bad habit. There are Basques nationalits who think they are superior to others, and Basques who don't think so. I see that for you, they are a kind of obssesion, however I think it is a wonderful land, full of good people.

rms2
05-17-2018, 01:38 PM
Rms2, there are many genetics fans that participate in this groups that have not nationalist pride when defending their theories. I don`t know what experiences you have had in the past but it certainly is not my case. We will wait for the experts to analyze these results in detail, and then we will talk.

You are new to Anthrogenica, so pretty obviously I did not have you in mind when I wrote about ethno-nationalists and their various forms of much heat and little light.



But we can talk about the "Oldest Steppe Bell beakers", and I want to remind your words two days ago. "No steppe Dna and P312 in Iberia before 2.500 B.C, after the arrival of steppe DNA, plenty of both" "I5665-el Virgazal, had a lot of steppe Dna" Now it turn out that it has 15% of autosomal steppe Dna, and you still think "is a considerable thing". "The replacement of Y-Chromosomes was much more dramatic (90%)". Of course you also say that "It causes them to post things they later have to walk back or explain away"

The fact that you focus on the low end of the range, 15%, says a lot. It could be 25%. I do think that is considerable, given that there was evidently no steppe dna or P312 in Iberia before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker after about 2500 BC.



Due to the antiquity (2.400-2.200 B.C) and the scarce Dna from the steppes found in Iberian Bell Beaker P312, it is easy to deduce that this haplogroup had already been in Iberia for a long time (100-200-300-400 years?) coexisting with the neolithic haplogroups (I2a, G, C1a). The chalcolitic in Iberia is too complicated to explain with the theory of the steppe invasions. It is too risky to do so, because most people don`t Know anything about the prehistory of Western Europe.

It's easy to make all sorts of mistakes. It doesn't seem likely P312 was in Iberia before about 2500 BC and the arrival, from the east, of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Coexistence doesn't seem to have been the rule, given what Reich wrote about y-dna replacement in Iberia. Certainly, however, replacement wasn't total.



You have also exposed your theories about the physical characteristics of the chalcolitic iberians (stature, heads...), about the only use of collective megalithic tombs, about how the Indoeuropean invaders subjected the Basques and then lost their language. I don`t agree with anything you say and whenever you want, we calmly discuss all those things.

You are putting words into my mouth I never said or wrote. I did say the Neolithic Iberians were of Mediterranean physical type. That is what I have read, and I have never seen a contrary claim. I did not say they only used megalithic tombs. I said they buried their dead collectively, like Neolithic farmers elsewhere in Europe, who seemed to place less emphasis on the individual and more on the group than the people of the steppe did. And, of course, I was speaking specifically about the very earliest Iberian Bell Beaker people and contrasting them with Kurgan Bell Beaker.

I also never said "the Indoeuropean invaders subjected the Basques and then lost their language". I said the Basques acquired their R1b-P312 and steppe dna via admixture with their IE-speaking neighbors and that the old Basque practice of matrilocality, in which the groom went to live with the bride's family, preserved Basque language and culture.

It is a fact that there are significant physical and cultural differences between the Iberian people some claim were the earliest Bell Beaker people and the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. We knew that already, but Olalde et al added a genetic dimension to it that is difficult to miss.

Romilius
05-17-2018, 01:48 PM
Rms2, there are many genetics fans that participate in this groups that have not nationalist pride when defending their theories. I don`t know what experiences you have had in the past but it certainly is not my case. We will wait for the experts to analyze these results in detail, and then we will talk.

But we can talk about the "Oldest Steppe Bell beakers", and I want to remind your words two days ago. "No steppe Dna and P312 in Iberia before 2.500 B.C, after the arrival of steppe DNA, plenty of both" "I5665-el Virgazal, had a lot of steppe Dna" Now it turn out that it has 15% of autosomal steppe Dna, and you still think "is a considerable thing". "The replacement of Y-Chromosomes was much more dramatic (90%)". Of course you also say that "It causes them to post things they later have to walk back or explain away"

Due to the antiquity (2.400-2.200 B.C) and the scarce Dna from the steppes found in Iberian Bell Beaker P312, it is easy to deduce that this haplogroup had already been in Iberia for a long time (100-200-300-400 years?) coexisting with the neolithic haplogroups (I2a, G, C1a). The chalcolitic in Iberia is too complicated to explain with the theory of the steppe invasions. It is too risky to do so, because most people don`t Know anything about the prehistory of Western Europe.

You have also exposed your theories about the physical characteristics of the chalcolitic iberians (stature, heads...), about the only use of collective megalithic tombs, about how the Indoeuropean invaders subjected the Basques and then lost their language. I don`t agree with anything you say and whenever you want, we calmly discuss all those things.

No, wait: it takes only two generations to drop down steppe ancestry to 15% cca. if you depart from a Central European Bell Beaker sample. The sample from El Virgazal is already son of a local Neolithic mother... probably, he was mingled for at least one or two generations.

Romilius
05-17-2018, 01:53 PM
Romilius, generalize has always been a bad habit. There are Basques nationalits who think they are superior to others, and Basques who don't think so. I see that for you, they are a kind of obssesion, however I think it is a wonderful land, full of good people.

I'm sorry, but I have lived the whole period of the ETA terrorism, even if I was still in Ethiopia then. An Ethiopian friend of mine, after reading a newspaper reporting another terrorist attack by ETA, said: "But those Basques don't know anything more than to do terrorism?"... I think that's what we could perceive from ETA actions.

rms2
05-17-2018, 02:08 PM
Here's an observation: every thread like this one that is begun to discuss the specifics of the steppe origin of the R1b-L11 in Kurgan Bell Beaker and to try to figure out the identity of the pre-Beaker steppe culture, always degenerates into a back-to-basics, a-b-c-1-2-3 defense of the very notion that L11 and Kurgan Bell Beaker came from the steppe in the first place.

There are just too many people out there who are emotionally invested in R1b-L11 not being of steppe origin. The consequence is that a lot of really interesting threads that start out well get shut down once the vitriol starts flowing, as it always does.

I wonder if we could get our own subforum here limited to people who accept up front the steppe origin of R1b-L11, so as to eliminate the recurrence of this constant problem.

The others could have their own retro- circa 2007-type subforum for posting about how linden trees pushed out of the FC LGM refuge into the rest of Europe at the end of the LGM, and therefore R1b must have, as well.

jeanL
05-17-2018, 02:16 PM
If Alexei Butin is right about what he heard at that conference, L51 has already turned up at Khvalynsk.

You mean this:


Hello. Today, the XIV Samara Archeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard. Khokhlov AA Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural region of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists. In his report, AA Khokhlov. introduced into scientific circulation until the unpublished data of the new Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both the Mariupol and Khvalyn features, and refers to the fourth quarter of the V millennium BC. All samples analyzed had a uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2.

Well R1b1a2 is at best R1b-M269 not R1b-P312; however R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a highly derived clade and I hardly doubt is a valid call. Just how the highly derived clades found in Iron Gates were bogus. So why is it that Yamnaya genomes keep popping up; yet no R1b-L51. This time some 15 new sequences form Catacomb and Yamnaya from Kurgans in the North Caucasus and Southern Russia; and 0%- R1b-L51.



Regarding the steppe dna in I5665 from El Virgazal, I think 15-25% steppe dna and belonging to a steppe y-dna haplogroup (P312) is a considerable thing in an Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker find, given the complete dearth of those things in early Iberian Bell Beaker and in Iberia as a whole before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Nope I5665 is nowhere near 25% Steppe; moreover as you seem to have ignore:

http://i68.tinypic.com/214s2ev.png

Look at Iberia_BA in the graph above.

Source: Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1717762115)

From the very same paper in Figure S5.3:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2Y0vmFrbB4/Wq51-jcxOiI/AAAAAAAADt4/4cA3nkPgqrk6AZScKvWONgiBc50ZibkIQCLcBGAs/s1600/Valdiosera-FS5-3.PNG

Notice the blue in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA; in fact some of the Iberian Bronze age genomes have less of the blue/Yamnaya component that the folks in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA that have the component.

I should mention that at least Iberia Beaker I5665 can be modeled as being part Malak_Preslavets at the expense of some Yamnaya admixture. These are Balkan pre-Steppe genomes and not the Malak_Preslavets genome that was substantially (~50%) Yamnaya like.


[1] "distance%=3.0683"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Malak_Preslavets,33.4
Iberia_Southwest_CA,26
Iberia_ChL,20.4
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Blatterhole_HG,7.4
Clovis,1.2

PS: I see you are going for the good old "When you can attack the facts you attack the character". These pesky ethnonationalist and the Franco-Cantrabrian Zombie that refused to die are keeping R1b-L51 from showing up in every sequence Yamnaya genome. ;) You keep fighting that strawman; it think I'm beginning to see it die once and for all. In the meantime let's all keep quite about the apparent lack of R1b-L51 in yet another batch of Steppe genomes; whereas its sibling R1b-Z2103 reigns supreme amongst the R1b-L23 confirmed sequences.

rms2
05-17-2018, 02:23 PM
. . . You keep fighting that strawman; it think I'm beginning to see it die once and for all. In the meantime let's all keep quite about the apparent lack of R1b-L51 in yet another batch of Steppe genomes; whereas its sibling R1b-Z2103 reigns supreme amongst the R1b-L23 confirmed sequences.

You're letting your emotions get the better of you yet again, which causes the wish to become father to the thought, like you did when you claimed Blatterhohle was "pre-M269" and that Villabruna was "pre-P297", both of which turned out to be wrong.

I'm at work and don't have time to go through and list all of the evidence you ignore, and besides, that would be tiresome. We've been through this many many times already.

The fact is that Kurgan Bell Beaker, clearly a steppe-derived group, had loads of L51, and neither L51, nor even L23 nor M269, has turned up west of the steppe before it does in steppe-derived cultures like Vucedol, Proto-Nagyrev, and Kurgan Bell Beaker.

jeanL
05-17-2018, 02:28 PM
Here's an observation: every thread like this one that is begun to discuss the specifics of the steppe origin of the R1b-L11 in Kurgan Bell Beaker and to try to figure out the identity of the pre-Beaker steppe culture, always degenerates into a back-to-basics, a-b-c-1-2-3 defense of the very notion that L11 and Kurgan Bell Beaker came from the steppe in the first place.

There are just too many people out there who are emotionally invested in R1b-L11 not being of steppe origin. The consequence is that a lot of really interesting threads that start out well get shut down once the vitriol starts flowing, as it always does.

I wonder if we could get our own subforum here limited to people who accept up front the steppe origin of R1b-L11, so as to eliminate the recurrence of this constant problem.

The others could have their own retro- circa 2007-type subforum for posting about how linden trees pushed out of the FC LGM refuge into the rest of Europe at the end of the LGM, and therefore R1b must have, as well.

You want an echo chamber I see? Imagine the years of scientific advancement we must be missing if we did not have contrarian opinions; scrutiny and peer review. Yeah it seems you have been infected with the absolutist virus; and I know you dislike SJWs but isn't demanding for a space where only supporters of the steppe theory be allowed to post and people are admitted based on their allegiance to the Steppe dogma the very definition of a Safe Space? Yes it will be a dream to have a space where you don't have your ideas challenges and do not have to come up with colorful logical fallacies and create vivacious straw-man about the FC refuge to fight. Because you know anyone who doesn't subject themselves to the almighty Steppe theory must obviously be in their own "retro- circa 2007-type subforum for posting about how linden trees pushed out of the FC LGM refuge into the rest of Europe at the end of the LGM, and therefore R1b must have, as well". Said it best by the man without any bias!


You're letting your emotions get the better of you yet again, which causes the wish to become father to the thought, like you did when you claimed Blatterhohle was "pre-M269" and that Villabruna was "pre-P297", both of which turned out to be wrong.


and.... and ATP-3; you are forgetting about ATP-3! Yeah I don't know why I should ever believe the authors when they say things like "R1b1a1a2 showed both ancestral and derived mutations" in Blatterhohle. Why do I do that when the Steppe dogma dictates that no-R1b must ever be found West of Ukraine prior to 3000 BC. That's why we don't speak about ATP-3; and yes Genetiker's opinion about the two mutations in the P297 level that open genomes supports are found in Villabruna is now gold; but his findings on ATP-3 are garbage. I see it now; I do: Anything that supports the Steppe theory: good! Anything else: FC-zombie; Basque nationalism; etc bad! You have shown me the way master jedi!

jeanL
05-17-2018, 02:39 PM
Modern day Irish shared about 50% of their DNA with the Steppe people; the Rathlin genomes also had about the same percentages. The beaker people from the Netherlands had about 60% of their DNA being Steppe derived; same thing for Britain's Beaker genomes. Somehow though if R1b-L51 is proven to not have come from Yamnaya all that autosomal signal will just vanish and they will no longer be the proud descendants of Steppe people./s

I forgot Basque too appear some 20%-30% of their DNA to be Steppe derived; but we are just waiting to get a confirmation of R1b-DF27 language to have that percentage vanish too! All those pesky autosomal percentages will gladly be vanquished once R1b-L51 is proven to not be from the Steppe./s

GASKA
05-17-2018, 02:41 PM
Well, I think your defense of the theory about the differentiation between Kurgan BB and Iberian BB, has made you handle very extreme arguments. In the Iberian chalcolitic we can differentiate the South with large villages (500-1.500 inhabitants- 3.200-2.100 B.C), with walls, irrigation systems, and trade with Africa and Asia, from the north and center of the peninsula, much more rugged, cold and poor. Burials vary from one area to another (for example, in the cities, they buried the dead in cysts under the floor of their houses, and they were individual burials, like in the Kurgans). In the north what was available to people was used like megalithic tombs and caves (pits and mounds were built). And this system didn`t change during the entire third Millenium. There were No changes related to customs, metallurgy or ceramics. Where are the Kurgan Bell Beakers?

Coexistence doesn`t seem to have been the rule? Really? Don`t you think coexistence is live in the same villages, be buried with the same offerings and in the same tombs?. Or do you think that the "Kurgan Bell Beakers" were buried in other places because they were taller and more beatiful?

The Neolithic Iberians were of Mediterranean physical type- I don`t know were you have read it, but since I don't think you are an anthropologist, I suppose you will agree that the Neolithic British, French and italian were also of the Mediterranean type , right? As far as I know, the mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Iberia and the British isles were black and have blue eyes.

The Basques acquired their P312 via admixture with their IE speaking neighbours. Really? And if the Basque language instead of being Neolithic is chalcolithic? then P312 would already be in Iberia and could have been the first speakers of Euzkera. Or perhaps, R1b, has been in Iberia since the Neolithic and there would be no problems explaining this changes in languages in hypothetical Indoeuropean invaders.

ADW_1981
05-17-2018, 02:58 PM
I'm sorry, but I have lived the whole period of the ETA terrorism, even if I was still in Ethiopia then. An Ethiopian friend of mine, after reading a newspaper reporting another terrorist attack by ETA, said: "But those Basques don't know anything more than to do terrorism?"... I think that's what we could perceive from ETA actions.

Don't expect much from the left other than to pretend they are nice and peaceful, oh and equal of course, can't forget that!

ADW_1981
05-17-2018, 03:01 PM
You mean this:



Well R1b1a2 is at best R1b-M269 not R1b-P312; however R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a highly derived clade and I hardly doubt is a valid call. Just how the highly derived clades found in Iron Gates were bogus. So why is it that Yamnaya genomes keep popping up; yet no R1b-L51. This time some 15 new sequences form Catacomb and Yamnaya from Kurgans in the North Caucasus and Southern Russia; and 0%- R1b-L51.




Nope I5665 is nowhere near 25% Steppe; moreover as you seem to have ignore:

http://i68.tinypic.com/214s2ev.png

Look at Iberia_BA in the graph above.

Source: Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1717762115)

From the very same paper in Figure S5.3:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2Y0vmFrbB4/Wq51-jcxOiI/AAAAAAAADt4/4cA3nkPgqrk6AZScKvWONgiBc50ZibkIQCLcBGAs/s1600/Valdiosera-FS5-3.PNG

Notice the blue in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA; in fact some of the Iberian Bronze age genomes have less of the blue/Yamnaya component that the folks in Iberia_North_LNCA and Iberia_South_LNCA and Iberia_Southwest_LNCA that have the component.

I should mention that at least Iberia Beaker I5665 can be modeled as being part Malak_Preslavets at the expense of some Yamnaya admixture. These are Balkan pre-Steppe genomes and not the Malak_Preslavets genome that was substantially (~50%) Yamnaya like.


[1] "distance%=3.0683"

Beaker_Iberia:I5665

Malak_Preslavets,33.4
Iberia_Southwest_CA,26
Iberia_ChL,20.4
Yamnaya_Samara,11.6
Blatterhole_HG,7.4
Clovis,1.2

PS: I see you are going for the good old "When you can attack the facts you attack the character". These pesky ethnonationalist and the Franco-Cantrabrian Zombie that refused to die are keeping R1b-L51 from showing up in every sequence Yamnaya genome. ;) You keep fighting that strawman; it think I'm beginning to see it die once and for all. In the meantime let's all keep quite about the apparent lack of R1b-L51 in yet another batch of Steppe genomes; whereas its sibling R1b-Z2103 reigns supreme amongst the R1b-L23 confirmed sequences.

Yet, M269 is undeniably eastern, even if your predictions are correct that these guys have it wrong. That leaves L51+ being central European or Carpathian in origin. Further west would require special pleading.

Radboud
05-17-2018, 03:32 PM
Yet, M269 is undeniably eastern, even if your predictions are correct that these guys have it wrong. That leaves L51+ being central European or Carpathian in origin. Further west would require special pleading.

Who expected that L51 would show up in the Caucasus Yamnaya anyway? I didn't, we still do not have any Y-dna from Western Ukraine/Moldavia/Hungary(Carpathian Basin) Yamnaya culture.

peternorth
05-17-2018, 03:37 PM
If Alexei Butin is right about what he heard at that conference, L51 has already turned up at Khvalynsk.

Sorry I missed all the fireworks last night, but I was busy with a couple of big matches on Ancestry and didn't have the time for everything.

Unfortunately I am at work right now and don't have the time to read that new paper.

There are a few people who show up at Anthrogenica only now and then to vent their anti-steppe spleen. Some of them have been spectacularly wrong time and again in the past, but they are good at posting colorful graphics and obfuscating. A few of them have invested a lot of emotion in proving that R1b-L51 could not be of steppe origin. It causes them to post things they later have to walk back or explain away.

They are apparently in a similar class of ethno-nationalists as the recent spate of frenzied advocates of the south-of-the-Caucasus theory of PIE origins. For the latter group, it's Iran, Anatolia, or the south Caucasus. For the former, the Iberian motherland is the thing, and bitterness over the fact that R1b is no longer thought to have spent the LGM there. The hope is that R1b will turn out to be native to Europe west of the steppe somewhere, anywhere, just so the hated "steppists" will be proven wrong. In other words, it's all about sour grapes and hatred of those who were proven right about the FC LGM refuge.

Regarding the steppe dna in I5665 from El Virgazal, I think 15-25% steppe dna and belonging to a steppe y-dna haplogroup (P312) is a considerable thing in an Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker find, given the complete dearth of those things in early Iberian Bell Beaker and in Iberia as a whole before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker.


For the life of me, I really, really cannot understand this mindset.
It is 'fanaticism' rather than plain old chauvinism.

jeanL
05-17-2018, 03:59 PM
Who expected that L51 would show up in the Caucasus Yamnaya anyway? I didn't, we still do not have any Y-dna from Ukraine/Moldavia/Hungary(Carpathian Basin) Yamnaya culture.

We do have some Y-DNA from Ukraine eNeolithic I5884 which is contemporary with Yamnaya dated to 2800 BC and it is R1b-Z2103. Moreover here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=300052&viewfull=1#post300052

We have 29 genomes with readily available y-haplogroups from a temporal window in Ukraine that spans a period critical to the formative years of R1b-L23 dating from 7446 BCE to 2800 BCE. The lack of R1b-L51 could be attribute to a local founder effect of R1b-Z210 in Eastern and Southern Yamnaya, but how does one explain the lack of R1b-L51 in the Western portions of Yamnaya? What I mean is that one would expect to find some R1b-L23(xZ2103,L51) or perhaps some R1b-M269(xL23) in this samples dated to the pre-Yamnaya period in Ukraine. Yet they are all very Iron_Gates-like in terms of their R1b profile. The closest people to the Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 aren't the predecessors thus far sequenced in Ukraine but the Latvian Hunter Gatherers with their R1b-P297 lines.

Source: https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/v555/n7695/extref/nature25778-s3.xlsx

In terms of Western Yamnaya we have:

Bul4 Mound 2 grave 1 tooth 1 1240K.capture ThisStudy Jena/Tuebingen 4906 3012-2900 calBCE (4333±20 BP, MAMS-26834) N Yamnaya_Bulgaria_outlier Yamnaya_Bulgaria .. Mednikarovo .. Bulgaria 42.43 25.90 M .. I2a2a1b1b

I5884 Grave 68 tooth 1 1240K.capture ThisStudy Dublin/Boston 4743 2890-2696 calBCE (4195±20BP, PSUAMS-2828) Y Ukraine_Eneolithic Ukraine_Eneolithic .. Dereivka Site 1 Ukraine 48.91 33.76 M U5a2b R1b1a1a2a2

One might argue that two is a very small number, but it is not zero. Therefore it is at best ignorant and at worst dishonest to claim that "we still do not have any Y-DNA from Ukraine/Moldavia/Hungary(Carpathian Basin) Yamnaya culture."

jeanL
05-17-2018, 04:04 PM
Yet, M269 is undeniably eastern, even if your predictions are correct that these guys have it wrong. That leaves L51+ being central European or Carpathian in origin. Further west would require special pleading.

I think going by the evidence that we have right now, which is subject to change that R1b-L51 was the brother that moved west from an area North of Ukraine, whereas R1b-L23 leading to R1b-Z2103 moved east. We do see that in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in the Baltic the is an increase in EHG admixture, so the Latvian Hunter_Gatherers go from being very Western-like as in more WHG than the SHG to being very Eastern like. There was also a paper that show the arrival of R1a lineages in the eNeolithic timeframe. Perhaps that was the driving vector. In Ukraine we see the opposite, with Ukranian Mesolithic being more EHG-like than Ukranian Neolithic which shift to a more WHG-like population and this period is marked with the arrival of R1b1a(xP297) lineages from the Iron Gates. Every single genome thus far that is overwhelmingly Yamnaya has turned out to be R1b-Z2103 or R1a1a-derived. I mean even the Beaker_outlier from Hungary that was some 70%+ Yamnaya like ended up being R1b-Z2103, if that doesn't speak to R1b-Z2103 being the vector for the expansion of the Yamnaya-like ancestry then I do not know what will.

Radboud
05-17-2018, 04:21 PM
One might argue that two is a very small number, but it is not zero. Therefore it is at best ignorant and at worst dishonest to claim that "we still do not have any Y-DNA from Ukraine/Moldavia/Hungary(Carpathian Basin) Yamnaya culture."

I5884 seems to an atypical case, people can model I5884 without Yamnaya admixture, but fair enough. I will correct my post.

For your information, I did not include Bulgaria. My point about Moldavia, Western Ukraine and the Carphathian Basin still stands.

jdean
05-17-2018, 04:30 PM
Who expected that L51 would show up in the Caucasus Yamnaya anyway? I didn't, we still do not have any Y-dna from Western Ukraine/Moldavia/Hungary(Carpathian Basin) Yamnaya culture.

Looks like we've Hungarian Yamnaya aDNA on the way

Post 233:The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14285-The-genetic-prehistory-of-the-Greater-Caucasus-preprint-Harvard-Jena&p=396152&viewfull=1#post396152)

ADW_1981
05-17-2018, 04:34 PM
I think going by the evidence that we have right now, which is subject to change that R1b-L51 was the brother that moved west from an area North of Ukraine, whereas R1b-L23 leading to R1b-Z2103 moved east. We do see that in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in the Baltic the is an increase in EHG admixture, so the Latvian Hunter_Gatherers go from being very Western-like as in more WHG than the SHG to being very Eastern like. There was also a paper that show the arrival of R1a lineages in the eNeolithic timeframe. Perhaps that was the driving vector. In Ukraine we see the opposite, with Ukranian Mesolithic being more EHG-like than Ukranian Neolithic which shift to a more WHG-like population and this period is marked with the arrival of R1b1a(xP297) lineages from the Iron Gates. Every single genome thus far that is overwhelmingly Yamnaya has turned out to be R1b-Z2103 or R1a1a-derived. I mean even the Beaker_outlier from Hungary that was some 70%+ Yamnaya like ended up being R1b-Z2103, if that doesn't speak to R1b-Z2103 being the vector for the expansion of the Yamnaya-like ancestry then I do not know what will.

Only R1b-L754 is confirmed to contributing to "Villabruna" and through some deduction, so would the descendant V88. The oldest split appears to be in Central Asia with R1b (xL754) and has turned up in 3 different Huns, thus R1b likely derived from a population more similar to ANE than WHG. We can safely say this because WHG was comprised of Villabrunan L754(xV88, xL389) but also earlier C-V20 and I2 populations at minimum who most definitely contributed some ancestry. Perhaps there is still yet another ghost population lingering in ancient Kazakhstan which falls somewhere between WHG and ANE and was the first R1b. I think it's hasty to assume R1 or R1b was exactly ANE, but it most likely was closer to that group than the overall formation of WHG.

dsm
05-18-2018, 01:22 AM
I think going by the evidence that we have right now, which is subject to change that R1b-L51 was the brother that moved west from an area North of Ukraine, whereas R1b-L23 leading to R1b-Z2103 moved east. We do see that in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition in the Baltic the is an increase in EHG admixture, so the Latvian Hunter_Gatherers go from being very Western-like as in more WHG than the SHG to being very Eastern like. There was also a paper that show the arrival of R1a lineages in the eNeolithic timeframe. Perhaps that was the driving vector. In Ukraine we see the opposite, with Ukranian Mesolithic being more EHG-like than Ukranian Neolithic which shift to a more WHG-like population and this period is marked with the arrival of R1b1a(xP297) lineages from the Iron Gates. Every single genome thus far that is overwhelmingly Yamnaya has turned out to be R1b-Z2103 or R1a1a-derived. I mean even the Beaker_outlier from Hungary that was some 70%+ Yamnaya like ended up being R1b-Z2103, if that doesn't speak to R1b-Z2103 being the vector for the expansion of the Yamnaya-like ancestry then I do not know what will.

JeanL - this post of yours really caught my attention. It really has me thinking as to the role of Z2103 vs L51.

Of the two, IMHO Z2103 is absolutely an incredibly diverse R1b line and it can be traced back to origins around Samara. And yes Z2103 could account for much of the Steppes autosomal DNA showing up in other cultures in parts of middle & western Europe if we accept that the 1st Yamnaya wave of migration (3100BC-2900BC) was dominantly Z2103 peoples. We know that they (with their Kurgans) came up the Danube and into the Hungarian Plains. We see their DNA in many parts of middle Europe (let alone Asia & Sth Asia).

Re the Carpathian basin path: There are so many paths from the Carpathian basin into the other areas we mostly accept as later homelands for P312 & even U106. We know Cordedware is dominantly R1a, but could we assume some R1b migrated into what is Ukraine/Poland with them - perhaps as a minority L51 or as L11 peoples. I am waiting for significant L11 finds in the Carpathian basin that aren't back migrations. Are there any yet ? (apart from the obvious traders found at Cespel).

Anyway, this post of yours was interesting. Sure got me thinking.

D

jeanL
05-18-2018, 04:59 AM
Assuming that Corded Ware was the second Steppe migration, and that Yamnaya was the Third Steppe migration and that it was solely R1b-Z2103. What culture is the one linked to the earliest Steppe migration and from where did they migrate. I'm thinking perhaps R1b-L51 was part of the first people to leave, followed by R1a1a from Corded Ware and then finally Yamnaya R1b-Z2103.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 06:53 AM
The question of this thread is "Was Saxony Anhalt, the main expansion area for L11 and/or P312?" Well taking into account that Sierentz (France-2.427 B.C) and Oostwoud (Holland-2.406 B.C), are the oldest examples of P312 that we have, I think the debate is still open. I guess nobody will forget the samples in Iberia and Italia, and as we have always done, we will respect the results of ancient dna. One thing is the origin and another the main expansion area, so it seems clear that at this time, the origin is Sierentz (France).

Regarding the results provided by jeanL, the truth is that the theory of the steppe origin of R1b L51, and the invasions of Indoeuropean warriors, has been totally destroyed, but as always in life, we have to be cautious. It's totally normal for people to elaborate other theories (Carpathian Bassin-Hungary, Iron Gates......). WE have ours, which is the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312, and only if they prove otherwise, we will have to surrender to the evidence.

Oldest steppe bell beakers may be it was not the men , but their GAC women

dsm
05-18-2018, 07:33 AM
Gaska,

What kind of intelligent dialogue can we hold when you post remarks like that?.
There is no rational answer that I can think of. Good luck in your quest but
please don't consider poisoning this otherwise intelligent dialogue with
What comes across as religious views. You are smarter than that.

Cheers D

dsm
05-18-2018, 07:40 AM
JeanL,

Not sure I can follow an argument that places L51 as older than Z2103. one of my main points was the undeniable and extraordinary diversity we see with Z2103. And that Z2103 is found in the Danube basin plus areas beyond whereas no L11 (or even L51) is showing up in the Kurgan areas on the Hungarian Plains. I don't see such age or diversity with L51. There does seem to be a very rapid expansion that does fit with a later migration of L51 following some earlier event that denuded the population of Europe.

Still an interesting line of thinking.

D

rms2
05-18-2018, 08:18 AM
You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 08:21 AM
Dsm- And what does Z2103 with "the main expansion area of P312"- Absolutely nothing, if you want to start an intelligent dialogue, you will have to provide data that will help us investigate how P312 was expanded, not about the diversity of Z2103. The fact that Z2103 was dominant in the first wave of migration (Yamnaya, 3.100-2.900 B.C) is not proven and its contribution to the autosomal steppes Dna in Western Europe is totally irrelevant in this debate.

What are the other areas that "we mostly accept as later homelands for P312 and U106?

Which are the paths from the Carpathian Bassin into those areas?

You don`t see such age of diversity with L51. Me neither, but deduce from that "a later migration of L51 following an event that denuded the population in Europe is simply amazing

GASKA
05-18-2018, 08:25 AM
Rms2 -I'm so sorry, rest in pace. We will pray for him

etrusco
05-18-2018, 08:26 AM
rms2

rms2

my condolences and my prayers

jeanL and GASKA

Is there a chance that the lack of R1b L-51 on the steppe could best ( I say could) be explained by the research by Balanovsky I quoted some days ago. Unlike me he's a professional genitist so maybe he was right writing that eastern and western clades had a different story. What do you think?

dsm
05-18-2018, 08:36 AM
RMS - please accept my condolances.
A valuable person and store of knowledge lost. I hope you enjoyed many information exchanges. I know you in particular would have valued such opportunitirpes.

Cheers DougM

Radboud
05-18-2018, 09:30 AM
Oldest steppe bell beakers may be it was not the men , but their GAC women


So your alternative scenario is that L51/P312 groups acquired Steppe ancestry from GAC women? You do realise that GAC samples lacked Steppe ancestry right? It seems that the opposite actually happened, The L51+ population probably acquired the Neolithic farmer ancestry from GAC and TRB as these 2 populations are an excellent fit for the Farmer ancestry of Late Neolithic Bell Beaker populations. Based on MTDNA, GAC shows a close relationship with the Bell Beakers.



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).


http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540


You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

My condolences.

anglesqueville
05-18-2018, 09:36 AM
rms2, friendly thoughts for you and your family.

etrusco
05-18-2018, 09:46 AM
Anglesqueville

The L51+ population probably acquired the Neolithic farmer ancestry from GAC and TRB as these 2 populations are an excellent fit for the Farmer ancestry of Late Neolithic Bell Beaker populations.

2 observations

1) In order for this to be true we should find a very decent amount of R1b L-51 in the corded ware territory of northern europe because you are well aware that TRB and Gac are in northern europe right? So corded ware should be very high in R1b which is not really the case......at least until now.....

OR

2) an alternative scenario is that TRB and GAC are interchangeable with generic lineages common to middle neolithic european farmers ( EEF + resurgence of WHG) that is typical of culture like Michelsberg and maybe atlantic meghalitism and hence the mixing of BBC and neolithic farmers could have happened further west or south.
Always from the well-known layman perspective. I'm not a professional.

anglesqueville
05-18-2018, 10:02 AM
rms2, friendly thoughts for you and your family.

Now, about Sierenz-Les Villas d'Aurele, 2430 BC. I have in my notes 2540 BC for Osterhofen, is it wrong? Anyway and once again, if Alexey Butin was not dreaming as he was at the XIVth archeologic conference of the Samara, and actually heard that " the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2", compared against those volgan people, our old Alsatian and German are likely to be seen as babies.

etrusco
05-18-2018, 10:19 AM
here's an article from indo.european site:
Honestly I hope it will come out to be a mistake.


https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/the-unique-elite-khvalynsk-male-from-a-yekaterinovskiy-cape-burial/

anglesqueville
05-18-2018, 10:53 AM
^^ You hope? Why do you hope anything in such context? How things of that kind can be causes of hope (or worry)?

R.Rocca
05-18-2018, 11:35 AM
Anglesqueville

The L51+ population probably acquired the Neolithic farmer ancestry from GAC and TRB as these 2 populations are an excellent fit for the Farmer ancestry of Late Neolithic Bell Beaker populations.

2 observations

1) In order for this to be true we should find a very decent amount of R1b L-51 in the corded ware territory of northern europe because you are well aware that TRB and Gac are in northern europe right? So corded ware should be very high in R1b which is not really the case......at least until now.....

OR

2) an alternative scenario is that TRB and GAC are interchangeable with generic lineages common to middle neolithic european farmers ( EEF + resurgence of WHG) that is typical of culture like Michelsberg and maybe atlantic meghalitism and hence the mixing of BBC and neolithic farmers could have happened further west or south.
Always from the well-known layman perspective. I'm not a professional.

Yamnaya already had Globular Amphora Culture type ancestry even before they moved west. So, there is no need for L51 men in Corded Ware. From Wang et al. (2018):


Using qpAdm with Globular Amphora as a proximate surrogate population (assuming
that a related group was the source of the Anatolian farmer-related ancestry), we
estimated the contribution of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry into Yamnaya and
other steppe groups. We find that Yamnaya individuals from the Volga region
(Yamnaya Samara) have 13.2±2.7% and Yamnaya individuals in Hungary 17.1±4.1%
Anatolian farmer-related ancestry (Fig.4; Supplementary Table 18)– statistically
indistinguishable proportions.

Of course, that does not mean that we won't find a small group of L51 Corded Ware, but as of now that does not look promising.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-18-2018, 11:48 AM
You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

I'm very sorry for your loss.
My condolences to you and your family.

etrusco
05-18-2018, 11:55 AM
richard

so alredy yamnaya in volga region had a good chunk of farmers input but this must come more from a cucuteni/tripolje movement east . That's a very good news I long awaited. I tought EEF and WHG were out of volga steppe. Maybe we have 15% EEF in the Volga which is more or less the same figure for steppe ancestry in Iberia IIRC. Wonderful!!!

So genetics is starting to back much of the observations and conclusion of Igor Manzura.......

anglesqueville

as I said I prefer being "native" to my land.....but maybe I should have used the term wish instead of hope....
however the IEhomeland question is "radioactive" the steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications................so better to find R1bL-51 in the french riviera or in remedello or atlantic france than Samara....believe me.....

Agamemnon
05-18-2018, 12:28 PM
My condolences, Rich.

anglesqueville
05-18-2018, 12:39 PM
richard

so alredy yamnaya in volga region had a good chunk of farmers input but this must come more from a cucuteni/tripolje movement east . That's a very good news I long awaited. I tought EEF and WHG were out of volga steppe. Maybe we have 15% EEF in the Volga which is more or less the same figure for steppe ancestry in Iberia IIRC. Wonderful!!!

So genetics is starting to back much of the observations and conclusion of Igor Manzura.......

anglesqueville

as I said I prefer being "native" to my land.....but maybe I should have used the term wish instead of hope....
however the IEhomeland question is "radioactive" the steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications................so better to find R1bL-51 in the french riviera or in remedello or atlantic france than Samara....believe me.....

Unable to understand. "Believe.."? Well, I'm not a believer (or better said, I try to...). Perhaps after all I'm a fan of Vladimir Putin?

R.Rocca
05-18-2018, 12:41 PM
richard

so alredy yamnaya in volga region had a good chunk of farmers input but this must come more from a cucuteni/tripolje movement east . That's a very good news I long awaited. I tought EEF and WHG were out of volga steppe. Maybe we have 15% EEF in the Volga which is more or less the same figure for steppe ancestry in Iberia IIRC. Wonderful!!!

So genetics is starting to back much of the observations and conclusion of Igor Manzura.......

anglesqueville

as I said I prefer being "native" to my land.....but maybe I should have used the term wish instead of hope....
however the IEhomeland question is "radioactive" the steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications................so better to find R1bL-51 in the french riviera or in remedello or atlantic france than Samara....believe me.....

We are here to find the truth based on facts, not to find which option offends the least amount of people.

jeanL
05-18-2018, 01:03 PM
JeanL,

Not sure I can follow an argument that places L51 as older than Z2103. one of my main points was the undeniable and extraordinary diversity we see with Z2103. And that Z2103 is found in the Danube basin plus areas beyond whereas no L11 (or even L51) is showing up in the Kurgan areas on the Hungarian Plains. I don't see such age or diversity with L51. There does seem to be a very rapid expansion that does fit with a later migration of L51 following some earlier event that denuded the population of Europe.

Still an interesting line of thinking.

D

I'm not saying that R1b-Z2103 is younger than R1b-L51, simply that it migrated first, or perhaps got out first on the first migration. I don't know, I'm just trying to consider alternative scenarios which reconcile the lack of R1b-L51 in Yamnaya and Neolithic+eNeolithic Ukraine. So perhaps the long line of mutations leading from L51 to P312 suggest a period of low proliferation. I don't know, I'm just brain storming.

PS: I do not believe in the Franco Cantabrian origin for P312, at most perhaps R1b-Z195 could have originated there, but I cannot in good faith assign an origin to the FC area based on the available evidence.

MikeWhalen
05-18-2018, 01:04 PM
So very sorry to hear of your loss Rich

my condolences and prayers to you and yours

Mike


You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

jeanL
05-18-2018, 01:04 PM
You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

My condolences to you and your family, may be rest in peace.

jeanL
05-18-2018, 01:13 PM
rms2, friendly thoughts for you and your family.

Now, about Sierenz-Les Villas d'Aurele, 2430 BC. I have in my notes 2540 BC for Osterhofen, is it wrong? Anyway and once again, if Alexey Butin was not dreaming as he was at the XIVth archeologic conference of the Samara, and actually heard that " the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2", compared against those volgan people, our old Alsatian and German are likely to be seen as babies.

The main issue I see is that under no nomenclature has R1b1a2 ever been R1b-P312, at best it is R1b-M269, though it might even be R1b-V88. Note that the other case has the modern notation with the R1b1a1a2 portion signaling R1b-M269, and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a highly derived clade, which nothing is impossible but I think unless we see the long line of SNPs leading to the mutation, I would hold my horses, because if it was defined on a single mutation, then you get stuff like the Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers being also classified as a highly derived R1b-U106 mutation.

jdean
05-18-2018, 01:18 PM
steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications

We're talking about 5000 yrs ago, how on earth could politics (of any flavour) have anything to do with it ????

R.Rocca
05-18-2018, 01:20 PM
The main issue I see is that under no nomenclature has R1b1a2 ever been R1b-P312, at best it is R1b-M269, though it might even be R1b-V88. Note that the other case has the modern notation with the R1b1a1a2 portion signaling R1b-M269, and R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 is a highly derived clade, which nothing is impossible but I think unless we see the long line of SNPs leading to the mutation, I would hold my horses, because if it was defined on a single mutation, then you get stuff like the Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers being also classified as a highly derived R1b-U106 mutation.

There is no way that this classification is correct. In all likelihood this is just simply M269, which while exciting, is not earth shattering.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 01:39 PM
Etrusco, my point is- Most of the cultures mentioned in this thread (some of which I know well), do not have to be genetically uniform (both men and women), that is, Yamnaya was not obviusly R1b, CW was not 100% R1a, Vucedol was not 100% Z2013 and the Bell Beaker culture that is also spread throughout Western Europe is not 100% nothing. At least in Iberia there are Bell Beakers burials with haplogroups I2a-G2-CT-P312-U152. Someone imagines genetic unifomity in a Neolithic culture? I think that regardless of the ancestral geographical origin of a certain haplogroup (M-269, steppes?), its descendants can be located in any region of Europe from the Neolithic and of course during the chalcolithic. Except ecological catastrophes or wars, people didn`t move collectivelly, but some individuals ventured into other regions where they usually adopted local customs. Other times these could share Knowledge or implement new costums (burials, offerings, ceramics). The exception that confirms the rule seems to be the Bell Beaker culture in the British islands (exclusively R1b), but we are talking about the end of chalcolitic.

If you ask me, where is the origin of L51, I Don`t Know. It could be the first to leave the steppes or perhaps Central European. Only the ancient Dna can tell us the routes of movement of haplogroups and since there are hundreds of skeletons to analyze, this can last many years.

Thats why I said that while Osterhofen or Sierentz are the oldest Known P312, then we must think that our origin is Germany or France.

Another alternative is to study the haplogroup according to the current variability, and then P312 is Franco-Cantabrian, clearly western.

Romilius
05-18-2018, 01:43 PM
The question of this thread is "Was Saxony Anhalt, the main expansion area for L11 and/or P312?" Well taking into account that Sierentz (France-2.427 B.C) and Oostwoud (Holland-2.406 B.C), are the oldest examples of P312 that we have, I think the debate is still open. I guess nobody will forget the samples in Iberia and Italia, and as we have always done, we will respect the results of ancient dna. One thing is the origin and another the main expansion area, so it seems clear that at this time, the origin is Sierentz (France).

Regarding the results provided by jeanL, the truth is that the theory of the steppe origin of R1b L51, and the invasions of Indoeuropean warriors, has been totally destroyed, but as always in life, we have to be cautious. It's totally normal for people to elaborate other theories (Carpathian Bassin-Hungary, Iron Gates......). WE have ours, which is the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312, and only if they prove otherwise, we will have to surrender to the evidence.

Oldest steppe bell beakers may be it was not the men , but their GAC women

GAC samples hadn't got any steppe or very few... so how's possible that people with very few steppe component help other people without steppe to raise their steppe admixture to 60%?

P312 and Franco-Cantabrian refuge... very funny: you all began with the R1b-M343 Franco Cantabrian refuge and then you reduce it to P312 refuge... no comment...

Romilius
05-18-2018, 01:45 PM
You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

Very sad moment... condolences for your loss.

Romilius
05-18-2018, 01:51 PM
^^ You hope? Why do you hope anything in such context? How things of that kind can be causes of hope (or worry)?

I think they are probably children, bound to some not very well defined pride created by some perverted games about their antique heroes.

Only children behave like that: to hope things they don't want to become true and be worried about the truth if it doesn't fit their moods.

alan
05-18-2018, 01:51 PM
Very sad moment... condolences for your loss.

Very sorry for your loss Rich

Romilius
05-18-2018, 01:55 PM
richard

so alredy yamnaya in volga region had a good chunk of farmers input but this must come more from a cucuteni/tripolje movement east . That's a very good news I long awaited. I tought EEF and WHG were out of volga steppe. Maybe we have 15% EEF in the Volga which is more or less the same figure for steppe ancestry in Iberia IIRC. Wonderful!!!

So genetics is starting to back much of the observations and conclusion of Igor Manzura.......

anglesqueville

as I said I prefer being "native" to my land.....but maybe I should have used the term wish instead of hope....
however the IEhomeland question is "radioactive" the steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications................so better to find R1bL-51 in the french riviera or in remedello or atlantic france than Samara....believe me.....

Oh my God... I'm really reading these words!? Geopolitical implications!? Are you still living in the 19th century with the old Romantic racist ideologies that brought European nationalisms?

French riviera... yes, why not: Basque terrorism brought by Basque nationalism is, instead, like a drop of perfume on cheeks before a gala dinner... please... never read such a great number of nonsense things all in a message.

MitchellSince1893
05-18-2018, 01:59 PM
rms2, friendly thoughts for you and your family.

Now, about Sierenz-Les Villas d'Aurele, 2430 BC. I have in my notes 2540 BC for Osterhofen, is it wrong? Anyway and once again, if Alexey Butin was not dreaming as he was at the XIVth archeologic conference of the Samara, and actually heard that " the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2", compared against those volgan people, our old Alsatian and German are likely to be seen as babies.

No that is correct. RISE563 is currently the oldest P312 (and U152) at 2572 to 2512 BC with mid point of 2542 BC https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10566-U152-Specific-Discussions-from-the-New-Papers-released-10-May-2017&p=234078&viewfull=1#post234078.


Today, the XIV Samara Archeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard. Khokhlov AA Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural region of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists. In his report, AA Khokhlov. introduced into scientific circulation until the unpublished data of the new Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both the Mariupol and Khvalyn features, and refers to the fourth quarter of the V millennium BC. All samples analyzed had a uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In the Khvalyn burial grounds (1 half of the 4th millennium BC), the anthropological material differs in a greater variety. In addition to the uraloid substratum, European broad-leaved and southern-European variants are recorded. To the game haplogroup R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to mito T2a1b, H2a1.

Highly doubtful that is P312. It would make it 1000 to 1500 years older than RISE563. Plus as mentioned earlier P312 has never been called R1b1a2. R1b1a2 is the nomenclature for M269.

Like others have said, it probably just M269. And the U106 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2, no way that existed in the "fourth quarter of the V millennium BC"

peternorth
05-18-2018, 02:32 PM
richard

so alredy yamnaya in volga region had a good chunk of farmers input but this must come more from a cucuteni/tripolje movement east . That's a very good news I long awaited. I tought EEF and WHG were out of volga steppe. Maybe we have 15% EEF in the Volga which is more or less the same figure for steppe ancestry in Iberia IIRC. Wonderful!!!

So genetics is starting to back much of the observations and conclusion of Igor Manzura.......

anglesqueville

as I said I prefer being "native" to my land.....but maybe I should have used the term wish instead of hope....
however the IEhomeland question is "radioactive" the steppe theory being true it will have many serious geopolitical implications................so better to find R1bL-51 in the french riviera or in remedello or atlantic france than Samara....believe me.....



Honestly, at least 99% of the general public couldn't care less.

What happened at least 5000 years ago - and fixates Anthrogenica posters - is of the very little interest to anyone else.

etrusco
05-18-2018, 02:36 PM
romillius

calm down I'm talking not about my mindset...but other's people mindset. I know there are people that could be affected by such outcomes....for them it could be a matter of life and death.....as the IE problem was for example for Hitler and company.
As for me this matter could be at the level of supporting a football team ..it takes me... I sometimes get emotional and passionate by at the end if steppe is so be it no problem.

JMcB
05-18-2018, 02:52 PM
You folks will have to pardon me for not following this thread or posting in it for awhile.

My father passed away yesterday at age 87. I have more important things on my mind right now.

My condolences, Rich, I know how you feel. I recently lost my 91 year old mother.

Eternal Rest Grant Unto Him, O Lord
And Let Perpetual Light Shine Down Upon Him.
May He Rest in Peace.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 03:20 PM
GAC samples hadn't got any steppe or very few... so how's possible that people with very few steppe component help other people without steppe to raise their steppe admixture to 60%?

P312 and Franco-Cantabrian refuge... very funny: you all began with the R1b-M343 Franco Cantabrian refuge and then you reduce it to P312 refuge... no comment...

As far I know, the autosomal Dna is not inherited from the women, but from the parents, so you must read well what I wrote.

May be you can explain to us with your famous theory of John Smith Kurgan Bell Beaker, the autosomal steppe percentages of the European population of the chalcolitic. You've already told us that you don`t care if R1b has its origin on Mars, so why do you care so much about the origin of P312?

jdean
05-18-2018, 03:30 PM
You've already told us that you don`t care if R1b has its origin on Mars, so why do you care so much about the origin of P312?

There's a difference between not caring if R1b came from Mars to being concerned there is enough evidence to support the 'Mars' hypothesis : )

Also P312 isn't anywhere near old enough to have been in any Ice Age refugium.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 04:04 PM
There's a difference between not caring if R1b came from Mars to being concerned there is enough evidence to support the 'Mars' hypothesis : )

Also P312 isn't anywhere near old enough to have been in any Ice Age refugium.

Of course P312 is too young to be in a refuge from the Ice Age.

It is also true that the I2a, C1a2 and R1b hunter-gatherers (Villabruna, Iboussieres, Els Trocs-Bisaurri) have been in Western Europe for 12.000 years. I don`t know if they were refugees or if they sunbathing on any Italian, French or Spanish beach, but surely they were not hunting mamooths in Siberia. Keep calm I don`t say that they are our ancestors, only say that they were here before us.

Bit boring to repeat, but I have to remind you that those who developed the theory of the Iberian /Italian refuge were the anglosaxons (Sykes etc...), you should ask for explanations to them, not to us

[/I]

anglesqueville
05-18-2018, 04:15 PM
Bit boring to repeat, but I have to remind you that those who developed the theory of the Iberian /Italian refuge were the anglosaxons (Sykes etc...), you should ask for explanations to them, not to us
Yes, the same (Sykes) who explained that british were basically descendants of native hunters-gatherers, reason why Sykes is the sole genetic reference used by Alinei to support his continuitist theories.:


(C) Independent geneticists working on DNA have recently ascertained that that 80% of the genetic stock of Europeans goes back to Paleolithic (e.g. Sykes 2001, 2006). (http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html)

Frozen in time?

Romilius
05-18-2018, 04:22 PM
romillius

calm down I'm talking not about my mindset...but other's people mindset. I know there are people that could be affected by such outcomes....for them it could be a matter of life and death.....as the IE problem was for example for Hitler and company.
As for me this matter could be at the level of supporting a football team ..it takes me... I sometimes get emotional and passionate by at the end if steppe is so be it no problem.

I'm very sorry, but those are problems that exist only in your mind...

Romilius
05-18-2018, 04:23 PM
No that is correct. RISE563 is currently the oldest P312 (and U152) at 2572 to 2512 BC with mid point of 2542 BC https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10566-U152-Specific-Discussions-from-the-New-Papers-released-10-May-2017&p=234078&viewfull=1#post234078.



Highly doubtful that is P312. It would make it 1000 to 1500 years older than RISE563. Plus as mentioned earlier P312 has never been called R1b1a2. R1b1a2 is the nomenclature for M269.

Like others have said, it probably just M269. And the U106 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2, no way that existed in the "fourth quarter of the V millennium BC"

I was also thinking about a qui pro quo misunderstanding: for example, to understand P312 instead of M412, that is L51 equivalent.

Romilius
05-18-2018, 04:29 PM
As far I know, the autosomal Dna is not inherited from the women, but from the parents, so you must read well what I wrote.

May be you can explain to us with your famous theory of John Smith Kurgan Bell Beaker, the autosomal steppe percentages of the European population of the chalcolitic. You've already told us that you don`t care if R1b has its origin on Mars, so why do you care so much about the origin of P312?

Oh my God... are you 14 y.o. or what? My John Smith theory was a metaphor... Really I have to explain that to you? Aren't you able to understand the joke under it? And don't play the "I'm not an English speaker" card: even me I'm not a native English speaker... This place is becoming even more frequented by beginners at arms...

And sorry, but aren't women among parents? Or are they an entirely separate beings that through mythosis can bear children?

Simple math game, you also can understand it: Parent 1 100% neolithic + Parent 2 90% neolithic and 10% steppe... their son or daughter would have less steppe admixture than Parent 2... it's not difficult, try to understand...

Romilius
05-18-2018, 04:33 PM
Of course P312 is too young to be in a refuge from the Ice Age.

It is also true that the I2a, C1a2 and R1b hunter-gatherers (Villabruna, Iboussieres, Els Trocs-Bisaurri) have been in Western Europe for 12.000 years. I don`t know if they were refugees or if they sunbathing on any Italian, French or Spanish beach, but surely they were not hunting mamooths in Siberia. Keep calm I don`t say that they are our ancestors, only say that they were here before us.

Bit boring to repeat, but I have to remind you that those who developed the theory of the Iberian /Italian refuge were the anglosaxons (Sykes etc...), you should ask for explanations to them, not to us

[/I]

Oh really!? That is your source? A 12 y.o. paper!? Perhaps something happened between us and Stephen Oppenheimer's book... ah, yes: scientific discoveries went on.

jdean
05-18-2018, 05:00 PM
Bit boring to repeat, but I have to remind you that those who developed the theory of the Iberian /Italian refuge were the anglosaxons (Sykes etc...), you should ask for explanations to them, not to us

No need to bother Sykes et al for explanations, we know how they came by their ideas which were based on bikini haplotypes (I think Sykes only used 9 loci) and modern frequencies. It was back in the mid 2000's that we started questioning the Iberian refugium when it started becoming very apparent the vast majority of R1b in Western Europe was far too young to have originated here, back then we had the infamous Zhivotovsky fudge factor to deal with too.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 05:35 PM
Oh my God... are you 14 y.o. or what? My John Smith theory was a metaphor... Really I have to explain that to you? Aren't you able to understand the joke under it? And don't play the "I'm not an English speaker" card: even me I'm not a native English speaker... This place is becoming even more frequented by beginners at arms...

And sorry, but aren't women among parents? Or are they an entirely separate beings that through mythosis can bear children?

Simple math game, you also can understand it: Parent 1 100% neolithic + Parent 2 90% neolithic and 10% steppe... their son or daughter would have less steppe admixture than Parent 2... it's not difficult, try to understand...

Definitely you have not understood anything what I said, you have to reread it.

Metaphor is the name of your culture or culture itself?

We need someone to explain thing to us, not everyone has the same intelligence and Knowledge. We have came here to learn, and who better than you to teach us.

ADW_1981
05-18-2018, 05:55 PM
No that is correct. RISE563 is currently the oldest P312 (and U152) at 2572 to 2512 BC with mid point of 2542 BC https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10566-U152-Specific-Discussions-from-the-New-Papers-released-10-May-2017&p=234078&viewfull=1#post234078.



Highly doubtful that is P312. It would make it 1000 to 1500 years older than RISE563. Plus as mentioned earlier P312 has never been called R1b1a2. R1b1a2 is the nomenclature for M269.

Like others have said, it probably just M269. And the U106 R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2, no way that existed in the "fourth quarter of the V millennium BC"

The only thing is that P312+ is inherently positive for M269 so putting P312 in brackets just implies that is most downstream mutation they could find. Anyone who knows about "P312", I wouldn't expect an amateur mistake like that getting these two SNPs mixed up, or an obvious difference in the nomenclature. I didn't interpret that sentence to suggest R1b1a2 was equivalent to P312 from a nomenclature perspective. I'm excited to see the results, but also feel it's a mistake somehow.

In terms of the U106, it's possible that was a SNP that was picked up using a program similar to the South Asian data where a bunch of upstream mutations were actually negative. That's the only explanation I have on that one.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 06:13 PM
No need to bother Sykes et al for explanations, we know how they came by their ideas which were based on bikini haplotypes (I think Sykes only used 9 loci) and modern frequencies. It was back in the mid 2000's that we started questioning the Iberian refugium when it started becoming very apparent the vast majority of R1b in Western Europe was far too young to have originated here, back then we had the infamous Zhivotovsky fudge factor to deal with too.

Then, if I don`t understand badly, the anglosaxons are wrong, and then they reproach the Spaniards for supporting a theory in which we have never believed?

Too boring to have to clarify this so many times.

jdean
05-18-2018, 06:31 PM
Then, if I don`t understand badly, the anglosaxons are wrong, and then they reproach the Spaniards for supporting a theory in which we have never believed?

Too boring to have to clarify this so many times.

The Iberian Refugium theory was developed when genetic genealogy was in its infancy, all fields of science evolve.

I'm also a bit confused, are you saying you weren't arguing in favour of that theory ?

Also, the big problem with 'out of Iberia' is it gets very tedious, stick about for a bit and you'll see what I mean, literally every few weeks somebody new turns up who's knowledge of the field is a couple books written in the beginning of the century.

Romilius
05-18-2018, 07:50 PM
Definitely you have not understood anything what I said, you have to reread it.

Metaphor is the name of your culture or culture itself?

We need someone to explain thing to us, not everyone has the same intelligence and Knowledge. We have came here to learn, and who better than you to teach us.

Ok, now I see you are only trolling. Thank you to made me loose my time.

It's not the explaining game here that matters, but the fact that you are clearly a provocateur.

I read very well what you wrote: you said that autosomal wasn't inherited by women, but by parents... women are half the parents you have... so you inherited by both your parents, also from women.

With this post I finish to answer you: many times was explained how the mainstream scientific thought reads the birth of the chalcolitic european admixture... no need to repeat it thousandly only because you pretend not to understand.

GASKA
05-18-2018, 07:57 PM
The Iberian Refugium theory was developed when genetic genealogy was in its infancy, all fields of science evolve.

I'm also a bit confused, are you saying you weren't arguing in favour of that theory ?

Also, the big problem with 'out of Iberia' is it gets very tedious, stick about for a bit and you'll see what I mean, literally every few weeks somebody new turns up who's knowledge of the field is a couple books written in the beginning of the century.

I hope that this small explanation serves so, that whenever a Spaniard or a descendant of Spaniards appears in these forums, there are NOT at least 20 people who inmediately reproach him for supportings Syke´s theory.

1.- There is evidence of human settlement (homo sapiens) in the Iberian peninsula for at least 40.000 years. This Doesn`t mean that we defend that these people were R1b, because the haplogroup didn`t even exist.
2.- That settlement has been UNINTERRUPTED until now, including the Wurm II and III glaciations.
3.- Northern Europe became uninhabitable.
4.- There is evidence of the existence of R1b in southern Europe since the beginning of the Holocene (11.000 B.C). In Spain during the mesolithic (5.750 B.C)
5.- Geneticists say that they belong to other branches (not P312), or that they became extinct.
6.- P312 appears in Spain in the second half of the III millenium.
7.- Spanish researchers say that P312 (NOT R1b) originated in the Franco Cantabrian region 4.700 years ago, but they have NOT taken into account the evidence of ancient DNA.
8.- So, until proven otherwise we think that our origin is where the oldest case of P312 is located. Currently Germany.
9- We have NOT repopulated Europe, but for 40.000 years, we have received populations coming from the north of the Pyrenees.

My apologies for boredom

jdean
05-18-2018, 08:23 PM
I hope that this small explanation serves so, that whenever a Spaniard or a descendant of Spaniards appears in these forums, there are NOT at least 20 people who inmediately reproach him for supportings Syke´s theory.

1.- There is evidence of human settlement (homo sapiens) in the Iberian peninsula for at least 40.000 years. This Doesn`t mean that we defend that these people were R1b, because the haplogroup didn`t even exist.
2.- That settlement has been UNINTERRUPTED until now, including the Wurm II and III glaciations.


I hope you don't think I'm pestering you, have you read the paper on Ice age Europe ?

The genetic history of Ice Age Europe (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993)

David Reich explains the findings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i95jT47xphg) in a video.

R.Rocca
05-18-2018, 08:50 PM
Just a reminder of what Y-DNA was in Western Europe just prior to the oldest Steppe Bell Beaker man from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany (red markup is mine):

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Sion_2600BC.png

etrusco
05-18-2018, 08:58 PM
Richard Rocca

We cannot underestimate this findings however....you could agree with me that France and Italy are under sampled at least compared to other european regions ( much of northern italy and nothing from center and south) and a lot of france ( atlantic facade completely missing). Would you agree ? Would everyone else agree?
We are talking of much populated regions.....with different culture and burial customs.....have they ever tested cremated bones?

dsm
05-18-2018, 09:15 PM
here's an article from indo.european site:
Honestly I hope it will come out to be a mistake.


https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/the-unique-elite-khvalynsk-male-from-a-yekaterinovskiy-cape-burial/

Etrusco - thanks for that link.

We see this comment in that article ... "It is possible, then, that we will have haplogroup R1b-M269 or L23 instead of L51, after all, and there would be then no major corrections to be made, either to the estimated dates from McDonald or Yfull (with their current differences), or to my predictions for early and late Khvalynsk, Repin, and Yamna…
NOTE. In fact, the appearance of R1b-M269* and/or L23* linked to expanding Khvalynsk could be the perfect end to the resurging theories on Armenian or Western European origin of this haplogroup."

D

Mr. Snow
05-18-2018, 09:17 PM
Just a reminder of what Y-DNA was in Western Europe just prior to the oldest Steppe Bell Beaker man from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany (red markup is mine):

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Sion_2600BC.png

In northern Italian Bell Beaker you find Remedello-like I2a people living side-by-side with R1b IE people, if they had sampled only the Remedello-like individual they would be claiming Italian Bell Beaker was I2a like Iberian Bell Beaker, also all the Remedello samples we have are from Remedello I, the original study claimed it included Remedello II but the claim was wrong and has been corrected, maybe Remedello II sees a surge of R1b people that were already nearby. They could even be there already in Remedello I and you just needed a few more samples.

dsm
05-18-2018, 09:43 PM
To jdean,

I have found Carlos Quiles to be an interesting researcher. He appears to be very thoughtful and logical and as do all good such researchers, admits he has got things wrong in the past and may still get things wrong in the future, but allowing that this area of research is changing quite rapidly since the 2015-2017 sets of papers (Haak, Reich, Mathieson, Olalde etc: ), his ideas are very easy to relate to.

This link is one of his well (IMHO) written sets of ideas that argue for a demic diffusion of PIE rather than a cultural one. It cuts deeply into this debate of Yamnaya Steppe migration. He deals with R1a & Cordedware relationship to PIE movement.

https://indo-european.eu/2018/01/the-indo-european-demic-diffusion-model-and-the-r1b-indo-european-association/

DougM

etrusco
05-18-2018, 09:52 PM
dsm

Yes, I'm reading this site since a couple of months. Mind you if you post on Eurogenes don't even think to mention Carlos or his site because you are immediately banned.....I'm not joking

dsm
05-18-2018, 10:31 PM
dsm

Yes, I'm reading this site since a couple of months. Mind you if you post on Eurogenes don't even think to mention Carlos or his site because you are immediately banned.....I'm not joking

Seriously ? :) - I can see that some of Carlos's ideas might provoke reactions by some but, his sources of material are very well documented and his histories of cultures and locations are great for one's own research. I even find myself agreeing with Carlos as to David Anthony's most recent ideas of which he (Carlos) doesn't fully agree (link below) - the great thing about his writings is that he offers insights and we can filter them based on what else we believe we know.

D

https://indo-european.eu/2017/12/the-new-indo-european-corded-ware-theory-of-david-anthony//

dsm
05-18-2018, 10:48 PM
Just a general comment on the idea of R1b and the Iberian refuge. jeanL summed up this pretty well by mentioning how the ideas written by Sykes (and I will add the volumes of work by Oppenheimer) were written before NGS analysis and detailed ancient DNA reconstruction was with us. Back in those days the DNA analysis and the terminal haplogroups were way up the trees.

For years I had the highest regard for Stephen Oppenheimer and have all his books. But, as good as he was (and is), he did not have enough detail to get his ideas right as to migrations of one people from the Iberian refuge up the coast of France & across the land-bridge to Cornwall, Wales & west Ireland & West Scotland. It can be argued that indeed what he said was true, but he had the wrong people if it is argued that they were the same Celtic people there today. There is no shame in getting such things wrong - in fact the Oxford study (Welcome Trust) asserts that much of the autosomal DNA from the era of the re-population of the UK & Ireland, is still there but as we all now know (Olalde B/B study) the Y-DNA changed dramatically around 2,500BC.

What it seems to me is occurring with some posters here, is that the old ideas in regard to the Iberian refuge, are set in stone and immovable when as we can clearly see, new DNA testing and the research into ancient DNA has changed the game.

It seems that perhaps the only certainty in DNA research is an uncertainty of what we may find next. The switch in acceptance of R1b originating via Anatolian (with EEF), over to R1b arriving from the Steppes (with its associated links to PIE origin and dispersal) is a dramatic change and clearly some people are being left behind locked into past ideas and notions.

Do we have a 100% clear picture today ? - no. Will it become clearer soon ?, I doubt it as there will always be some new controversy emerging from new discoveries. But, we all need to adapt as new evidence emerges and is refined.

D

jdean
05-19-2018, 01:23 AM
To jdean,

I have found Carlos Quiles to be an interesting researcher. He appears to be very thoughtful and logical and as do all good such researchers, admits he has got things wrong in the past and may still get things wrong in the future, but allowing that this area of research is changing quite rapidly since the 2015-2017 sets of papers (Haak, Reich, Mathieson, Olalde etc: ), his ideas are very easy to relate to.

This link is one of his well (IMHO) written sets of ideas that argue for a demic diffusion of PIE rather than a cultural one. It cuts deeply into this debate of Yamnaya Steppe migration. He deals with R1a & Cordedware relationship to PIE movement.

https://indo-european.eu/2018/01/the-indo-european-demic-diffusion-model-and-the-r1b-indo-european-association/

DougM

Don't really know how to put this kindly but Carlos is living in the (recent) past, if rms2 (Rich) were posting at the mo he'd be on this like sonic !!!

The idea that IE was spread exclusively by R1a was popular with some not so long ago but Rich pointed out the link with Centum IE and R1b well over 10 years ago, and got a lot of grief for it, but in my opinion (and many more besides) this has been more than adequately proved by recent aDNA studies.

dsm
05-19-2018, 03:21 AM
Don't really know how to put this kindly but Carlos is living in the (recent) past, if rms2 (Rich) were posting at the mo he'd be on this like sonic !!!

The idea that IE was spread exclusively by R1a was popular with some not so long ago but Rich pointed out the link with Centum IE and R1b well over 10 years ago, and got a lot of grief for it, but in my opinion (and many more besides) this has been more than adequately proved by recent aDNA studies.

jdean thanks, I hadn't actually realised Carlos was asserting that only R1a was responsible for IE spread. I'll look deeper into his comments.

I can see a logic that says one group (I gather he is asserting just R1a) was the basis for calling it a demic diffusion model. But, commonsense surely tells us that R1a alone did not pass IE to the R1b regions of Europe. Still need to read his comments further.

Thanks

DougM

etrusco
05-19-2018, 06:22 AM
dsm

Carlos's thesis is the opposite, according to him it is only R1b the true marker of PIE and IE dispersal.

etrusco
05-19-2018, 06:47 AM
@all

Here's an article connected to our topic

https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/immigration-and-transhumance-in-the-early-bronze-age-carpathian-basin/

GASKA
05-19-2018, 07:24 AM
Just a reminder of what Y-DNA was in Western Europe just prior to the oldest Steppe Bell Beaker man from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany (red markup is mine):

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Sion_2600BC.png

Richard, Olalde's work has clarified some things about BB Culture, but if I have something to reproach my countryman is the superficiality of work in Spain, Italy and Western France. Absoluty nothing about Bell Beaker culture in Extremadura and Andalucia, where the archaelogical levels of this culture are dated (2.600-2.500 B.C). Not a single bone analyzed in the large villages of los Millares, Valencina, Las Pijotillas, San Blas, Marroquies Bajos...... all of them inhabited between 3.200-2.000 B.C. They have limited themselves to study Bell Beaker deposits in the north, and Tagus river basin.

It`s true that we believe that things would not have changed much either because the large chalcolithic collective burials studied in San Juan ante Porta Latinam (Alava) and Caravaca (Murcia)- 3.200 B.C, we have only found I2a, I, G2a, C1a..NO trace of R1b. We only have P312 between 2.300-2.200 B.C, which makes us suppose 100-200 years more (steppe autosomal Dna), still far to P312 in Germany.

Not hope to find L51, L11 in the early Iberian chalcolitic (3.200-2.600 B.C). If we don't have L51 in the West, and apparently we don't have L51 in the East. Where can we find our friend? Obviusly in Central Europe, may be France.

Don't forget that the Bell Beaker culture is totally Western, trying that the Budzhak culture (Clearly linked with to Corded Ware culture) is the origin of Bell Beaker culture does not make much sense. Certainly the genetic distinction doesn't mean that there are different cultures when the customs are the same. Un saludo

jdean
05-19-2018, 08:04 AM
dsm

Carlos's thesis is the opposite, according to him it is only R1b the true marker of PIE and IE dispersal.

Spose that explains why the general won't tolerate him, there's only so much crazy he will put up with : ))))

jdean
05-19-2018, 08:12 AM
Don't forget that the Bell Beaker culture is totally Western

The full BB package most likely came together in Western Europe but to say they were 'totally Western' heavily suggests you are ignoring elements that clearly came from Eastern Europe.

jdean
05-19-2018, 09:03 AM
Friend asked me for this the other day but the link I had no longer works so I'm glad I found it again.

Renfrew mentions many things including BB in Spain and the lack of Hittite aDNA (which we may or may not have now) so it's worth watching the whole lecture, however I think his summing up speech at the end is worth focusing on.

Renfrew concedes to Gimbutas (https://youtu.be/pmv3J55bdZc?t=3701)

GASKA
05-19-2018, 09:26 AM
The full BB package most likely came together in Western Europe but to say they were 'totally Western' heavily suggests you are ignoring elements that clearly came from Eastern Europe.

Thansk for sending me the link, I already Know

A little bit of Iberian chalcolithic.http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/arqueomania/arqueomania-12-05-18/4599541/

jdean
05-19-2018, 09:37 AM
Thansk for sending me the link, I already Know

A little bit of Iberian chalcolithic.http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/arqueomania/arqueomania-12-05-18/4599541/

Think the video content on that site is restricted to Spain unfortunately, I'd probably have a hard time following it anyway : )

Edit: Ah, browser compatibility issue (works in Firefox), unfortunately I'm a monoglot and and lost contact with Spanish friends years ago, now if it was in French I could ask my wife to tell what they were talking about : )

etrusco
05-19-2018, 09:42 AM
What I cannot explain myself is that how it is possible that in 1500 years we find at least 3 heavily differentiated language families in CW europe like celtic germanic and italic and celtic also P and Q version...in a post 2500 scenario of kurgan invasion this is problematic. Given that L-51 expands so rapidly this is even more problematic. Also bronze age europe was a time of convergence between cultures ( nordic bronze age- polada unetice- all post and related to BBC) .
I do not know if there are some linguistic researches that deal with this problem.

jdean
05-19-2018, 10:12 AM
What I cannot explain myself is that how it is possible that in 1500 years we find at least 3 heavily differentiated language families in CW europe like celtic germanic and italic and celtic also P and Q version...in a post 2500 scenario of kurgan invasion this is problematic. Given that L-51 expands so rapidly this is even more problematic. Also bronze age europe was a time of convergence between cultures ( nordic bronze age- polada unetice- all post and related to BBC) .
I do not know if there are some linguistic researches that deal with this problem.

I'm definitely not a linguist so can't really comment but here's a video of somebody reciting a poem in my language as it was spoken 1000 yrs ago, translations please : )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s9fh3cmWt8

etrusco
05-19-2018, 10:31 AM
Jdean

Very smart post. You caught me off guard! As a romance speaker I really love and appreciate those Normans. Thank you William the Conqueror!!!
I've heard however of a fringe theory that states Old English was only a literally language and does not mirror the language spoken in early medieval England. They say popular language was already absorbing "latin" terms before Hastings due to contact with France. Well even if I like anti-mainstream theory at least I do not buy this. It doesn't pass the smell test!

GASKA
05-19-2018, 10:37 AM
The lost of the initial or intervocalic "P", is one of the oldest traits of the Celtic language. So father- Spanish (padre), latin (pater), irish (athir). Pig- Spanish (puerco), latin (porcum), irish (orc).

The Lusitanian maintains the "P", then had to separate from the Celtic language early. When? Perhaps middle age of bronze (1.500-1.000 B.C).

The Celtiberian language lost the "P", but maintains archaisms with respect the continental Celtic and even the rest of Indoeuropean languages, like the use of postpositions instead of prepositions. Instead of writing "Eni Tokoitei" or "Eni tirikantam", they wrote "Tokoitei Eni" and "Tirikantam Eni". Then it is a mistery, it can be ancient (2.500 B.C?) or have entered with the historical celtic peoples of Iberia (Iron Age, 700-500 B.C). We don't know. Hope I have helped something.

R.Rocca
05-19-2018, 02:15 PM
Richard Rocca

We cannot underestimate this findings however....you could agree with me that France and Italy are under sampled at least compared to other european regions ( much of northern italy and nothing from center and south) and a lot of france ( atlantic facade completely missing). Would you agree ? Would everyone else agree?
We are talking of much populated regions.....with different culture and burial customs.....have they ever tested cremated bones?

We have a lot of samples from Iberia, Britain and Germany. We know pre-Bell Beaker Britain people were a lot like those from Iberia as per the Olalde paper. So, the Atlantic facade will show populations just like those two. Of course, we have the Treilles and Paris Basin samples that are I2a. Then we have samples from the Balkans. The few samples from Italy are already clear enough that it sows exactly what we would expect because of all of the surrounding areas that we do have a lot of samples for. Italy was not a refuge area in the Copper Age that had no interaction with the outside world. It had a lot of interactions and if it was harboring a 100% L23 population, which is what is needed to explain the expansion of Steppe Bell Beaker, it would have already been distributed throughout France and Iberia by the Copper Age. It didn't.

As a reminder, previous studies have shown that only 4 of 800 modern continental Italian males were I2a1-M26 whereas Sardinian males are about 35-40% I2a1-M26. It’s pretty obvious that the pre-Bell Beaker population of continental Italy was entirely M26, G2a and maybe some R-V88.

dsm
05-19-2018, 11:25 PM
Friend asked me for this the other day but the link I had no longer works so I'm glad I found it again.

Renfrew mentions many things including BB in Spain and the lack of Hittite aDNA (which we may or may not have now) so it's worth watching the whole lecture, however I think his summing up speech at the end is worth focusing on.

Renfrew concedes to Gimbutas (https://youtu.be/pmv3J55bdZc?t=3701)

jdean, this was well worth the time to listen to. Esp allowing it was Refrew who gave it.

D

Mr. Snow
05-20-2018, 03:24 AM
Richard, Olalde's work has clarified some things about BB Culture, but if I have something to reproach my countryman is the superficiality of work in Spain, Italy and Western France. Absoluty nothing about Bell Beaker culture in Extremadura and Andalucia, where the archaelogical levels of this culture are dated (2.600-2.500 B.C). Not a single bone analyzed in the large villages of los Millares, Valencina, Las Pijotillas, San Blas, Marroquies Bajos...... all of them inhabited between 3.200-2.000 B.C. They have limited themselves to study Bell Beaker deposits in the north, and Tagus river basin.

It`s true that we believe that things would not have changed much either because the large chalcolithic collective burials studied in San Juan ante Porta Latinam (Alava) and Caravaca (Murcia)- 3.200 B.C, we have only found I2a, I, G2a, C1a..NO trace of R1b. We only have P312 between 2.300-2.200 B.C, which makes us suppose 100-200 years more (steppe autosomal Dna), still far to P312 in Germany.

Not hope to find L51, L11 in the early Iberian chalcolitic (3.200-2.600 B.C). If we don't have L51 in the West, and apparently we don't have L51 in the East. Where can we find our friend? Obviusly in Central Europe, may be France.

Don't forget that the Bell Beaker culture is totally Western, trying that the Budzhak culture (Clearly linked with to Corded Ware culture) is the origin of Bell Beaker culture does not make much sense. Certainly the genetic distinction doesn't mean that there are different cultures when the customs are the same. Un saludo

Check out yfull.com, we have L51 in Italy:
R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
id:ERS257000 ITA [IT-CA]

L151* in France:
R-L151 PF5856 * YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159 * P310/S129/PF6546+9 SNPs formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
R-L151*
id:YF13201 FRA [FR-11]new

Then most P312 in Iberia with some also in other Bell Beaker locations:
R-P312 Z1904/CTS12684/PF6548 * P312/S116/PF6547 formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:YF13453 ESP [ES-J]new
id:YF13332 ESP [ES-LU]new
id:YF13262 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12644 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12621 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12201 ESP [ES-J]
id:YF06077 PRT [PT-20]

Italy to France to Iberia, not Ukraine to Poland to Hungary, crazy stuff, but wait there is more:

R-U106M405/S21/U106formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp
R-U106*
id:YF12659 ESP [ES-BU]new

R-DF27DF27/S250 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:HG01785 ESP
R-DF27*
id:HG01775 ESP
id:HG01771 ESP

R-L21L21/M529/S145 * L459 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp
R-L21*
id:YF12147 ESP [ES-NA]

R-U152S28/U152/PF6570 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:ERS257080 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257044 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257041 ITA [IT-CA]

It's almost like Spain and southern Europe have something to do with Bell Beaker, you could never have guessed that from the archeology dates we have.

Ravai
05-20-2018, 08:09 AM
Hello,

Do all these identifiers belong to modern DNA? Or is it that I'm missing something?

Regards


Check out yfull.com, we have L51 in Italy:
R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
id:ERS257000 ITA [IT-CA]

L151* in France:
R-L151 PF5856 * YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159 * P310/S129/PF6546+9 SNPs formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
R-L151*
id:YF13201 FRA [FR-11]new

Then most P312 in Iberia with some also in other Bell Beaker locations:
R-P312 Z1904/CTS12684/PF6548 * P312/S116/PF6547 formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:YF13453 ESP [ES-J]new
id:YF13332 ESP [ES-LU]new
id:YF13262 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12644 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12621 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12201 ESP [ES-J]
id:YF06077 PRT [PT-20]

Italy to France to Iberia, not Ukraine to Poland to Hungary, crazy stuff, but wait there is more:

R-U106M405/S21/U106formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp
R-U106*
id:YF12659 ESP [ES-BU]new

R-DF27DF27/S250 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:HG01785 ESP
R-DF27*
id:HG01775 ESP
id:HG01771 ESP

R-L21L21/M529/S145 * L459 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp
R-L21*
id:YF12147 ESP [ES-NA]

R-U152S28/U152/PF6570 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:ERS257080 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257044 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257041 ITA [IT-CA]

It's almost like Spain and southern Europe have something to do with Bell Beaker, you could never have guessed that from the archeology dates we have.

GoldenHind
05-20-2018, 11:16 AM
I'm definitely not a linguist so can't really comment but here's a video of somebody reciting a poem in my language as it was spoken 1000 yrs ago, translations please : )


Old English is essentially a foreign language to modern English speakers. Even the middle English of Chaucer can be very difficult to follow.

I asked my wife to listen to the video and guess the language. She thought it was one of the Scandinavian languages.

jdean
05-20-2018, 11:48 AM
Old English is essentially a foreign language to modern English speakers. Even the middle English of Chaucer can be very difficult to follow.

I asked my wife to listen to the video and guess the language. She thought it was one of the Scandinavian languages.

So a very good guess : )

GASKA
05-20-2018, 01:29 PM
Check out yfull.com, we have L51 in Italy:
R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
id:ERS257000 ITA [IT-CA]

L151* in France:
R-L151 PF5856 * YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159 * P310/S129/PF6546+9 SNPs formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
R-L151*
id:YF13201 FRA [FR-11]new

Then most P312 in Iberia with some also in other Bell Beaker locations:
R-P312 Z1904/CTS12684/PF6548 * P312/S116/PF6547 formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:YF13453 ESP [ES-J]new
id:YF13332 ESP [ES-LU]new
id:YF13262 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12644 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12621 PRT [PT-20]new
id:YF12201 ESP [ES-J]
id:YF06077 PRT [PT-20]

Italy to France to Iberia, not Ukraine to Poland to Hungary, crazy stuff, but wait there is more:

R-U106M405/S21/U106formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp
R-U106*
id:YF12659 ESP [ES-BU]new

R-DF27DF27/S250 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:HG01785 ESP
R-DF27*
id:HG01775 ESP
id:HG01771 ESP

R-L21L21/M529/S145 * L459 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp
R-L21*
id:YF12147 ESP [ES-NA]

R-U152S28/U152/PF6570 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp
id:ERS257080 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257044 ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS257041 ITA [IT-CA]

It's almost like Spain and southern Europe have something to do with Bell Beaker, you could never have guessed that from the archeology dates we have.

Thank you. Another argument more. The truth is that the Kurgan Bell Beakers theory, that is, the invasions of the men from the steppes with their horses, weapons, and burial customs is increasingly surprising.

Given that we have a case of M343 (Kromsdorf-2.613 B.C) and a case of P312.U152 (Osterhofen-2.456 B.C), and that apparently the Central European BB have more eastern autosomical Dna, than those from the rest of Europe, we have to justify that difference, and for that, we must first look for a route of arrival for the steppe riders, from the Yamnaya culture to Germany, that is chronologically acceptable.

Since the Yamna culture at the moment, has no L11, nor L51, nor P312, and also, dissappeared in 2.600 B.C, we have to look for other alternatives. First desperately looking for L51 any where in Eastern Europe, then looking for an oriental Pre-BB culture that fits us chronologically (for example Buzdhak culture, although is related with C.W), or assuming that the L51 Tribe of the steppes reached Saxony through Transylvania avoiding the Vucedol culture (sedentary Rz2103) and CW (R1a).

The L51 riders crossed the territory of GAC, suppose exterminated their men, married their wives and arrived to Saxony, where they find or better develop a superior culture called Bell Beaker extending it throughout Central and Western Europe. They arrive in Italy where impose their funerary customs (that the italians had been practicing for many centuries), and later to Iberia, where they introduced a pottery that the iberians already know 500 years ago.

Just great. So far the fantasy, then we will see what is the reality.

jdean
05-20-2018, 01:42 PM
Thank you. Another argument more.

Not really an argument, these are modern DNA results, if we could use contemporary DNA to gauge ancient we would expect to see Western Europe populated by Y-DNA G, I2 and R-V88 (oh and a branch of R1b that nobody's ever heard of : ) and little else.

BTW What style of burial are you referring to in Italy ?

Mr. Snow
05-20-2018, 01:57 PM
Not really an argument, these are modern DNA results, if we could use contemporary DNA to gauge ancient we would expect to see Western Europe populated by Y-DNA G, I2 and R-V88 and little else.

BTW What style of burial are you referring to in Italy ?

When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia that's a pattern. What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead? Can't take aDNA at face value.

jdean
05-20-2018, 02:04 PM
When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia today


that's a pattern.

What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead? Can't take aDNA at face value.

So rip up all the evidence you don't like : )

anglesqueville
05-20-2018, 02:18 PM
GASKA: "Given that we have a case of M343 (Kromsdorf-2.613 B.C) and a case of P312.U152 (Osterhofen-2.456 B.C), and that apparently the Central European BB have more eastern autosomical Dna, than those from the rest of Europe, we have to justify that difference..."

Incredible... Where were you during the last months?

(I0807 M Europe_MNChL1
I0559 M Europe_MNChL1)


left pops:
Beaker_Bavaria
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1
best coefficients: 0.654 0.346
std. errors: 0.048 0.048
chisq tail prob
4.937 0.986675
*****************************************
Beaker_Cz
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1
best coefficients: 0.622 0.378
std. errors: 0.046 0.046
chisq tail prob
4.437 0.992207
*****************************************
left pops:
Beaker_Pol
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1

best coefficients: 0.774 0.226
std. errors: 0.058 0.058
chisq tail prob
0.705831 0.774
*****************************************
left pops:
Beaker_Southern_France
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1
best coefficients: 0.664 0.336
std. errors: 0.084 0.084

chisq tail prob
8.604 0.855577
°°°°°°°°°°
left pops:
Beaker_Southern_France
CW_Germany
France_MLN

best coefficients: 0.710 0.290
std. errors: 0.043 0.043

chisq tail prob
7.884 0.851069

*****************************************
left pops:
Beaker_Alsace (I1382,I1381,I1389,I1390)
CW_Germany
I1392_Alsace_nosteppe

best coefficients: 0.750 0.250
std. errors: 0.054 0.054

chisq tail prob
6.669 0.946724
*****************************************

left pops:
Beaker_Britain
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1
best coefficients: 0.864 0.136
std. errors: 0.048 0.048

chisq tail prob
8.542 0.859201
****************************************

left pops:
Beaker_The_Netherlands
CW_Germany
Europe_MNChL1

best coefficients: 0.896 0.104
std. errors: 0.053 0.053
chisq tail prob
11.190 0.671086
******************************************

Are you able to read those qpAdms by yourself, or do you need an explanation?

GASKA
05-20-2018, 03:13 PM
Not really an argument, these are modern DNA results, if we could use contemporary DNA to gauge ancient we would expect to see Western Europe populated by Y-DNA G, I2 and R-V88 (oh and a branch of R1b that nobody's ever heard of : ) and little else.

BTW What style of burial are you referring to in Italy ?

Individual inhumatons in Remedello and previous culturesin Italy.

You already have to look for all kinds of arguments, but you don't realize that you need a very COMPACT POPULATION of men L51 or P312 (3.000-2.500 B.C) near the first U106 and of the regions where Df27, L21 and U152 are the majority? That site must necessarity be Central Europe, South-Western France . Why is necessary to bring L51 from the steppes?

jdean
05-20-2018, 03:30 PM
Why is necessary to bring L51 from the steppes?

Because every single ancient L51+ individual has Steppe autosomal DNA, most considerable, and L23 (plus to a lesser extent M73) is found in considerable numbers in ancient Steppe DNA but is absent from Western European aDNA prior to Steppe autosomal DNA turning up despite a considerable amount of neolithic results from Western Europe.

GASKA
05-20-2018, 03:50 PM
Because every single ancient L51+ individual has Steppe autosomal DNA, most considerable, and L23 (plus to a lesser extent M73) is found in considerable numbers in ancient Steppe DNA but is absent from Western European aDNA prior to Steppe autosomal DNA turning up despite a considerable amount of neolithic results from Western Europe.

23291. If you want to fantasize, what do yo think about that. It is a small sailing boat painted on a cave of Antequera (4.000 B.C), Near there is a magnificient mound with to burials chambers one painted enterely red (experts could say that this is Yamnaya type). It could be that the Indoeuropeans didn't arrive on horseback but by boat.

R.Rocca
05-20-2018, 03:57 PM
When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia that's a pattern.

The most diverse L51 is around the Rhine (L51, DF100, U106, DF99, DF19, L21, DF27, U152 etc.). Iberia seems to be important only in DF27 founder affects.


What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead?

It's a bummer that the scientists were so unlucky that they only got the skeletons of the alcohol consumers and not the alcohol pushers. Of course those same "early" R1b people would have not mixed with the I2a consumer populations for thousands of years and therefore did not spread their steppe ancestry onto them. Perhaps we should introduce aliens and unicorns into the story to make it more colorful? (I hope the sarcasm is coming across as think as I'm intending it to).


Can't take aDNA at face value.

Then what you are proposing is not science, but science fiction. BTW, you win the grand prize, because that is the worst come-back I've ever seen in a DNA forum... and I've been at this for 10 years!

jdean
05-20-2018, 04:11 PM
23291. If you want to fantasize, what do yo think about that. It is a small sailing boat painted on a cave of Antequera (4.000 B.C), Near there is a magnificient mound with to burials chambers one painted enterely red (experts could say that this is Yamnaya type). It could be that the Indoeuropeans didn't arrive on horseback but by boat.

Or both, did they get DNA results from the boat ?

Dewsloth
05-20-2018, 04:40 PM
When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia that's a pattern. What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead? Can't take aDNA at face value.

The oldest DF19 sample i'm aware of is from Roman York. The oldest subclade of DF19 (DF88*) has two surviving, reporting lines with MDKAs in Norway and Poland. There are 339 members of the DF19 group at FTDNA yet no DF19 there lists a MDKA in Spain or Portugal. Is this what you mean by "around Iberia"?

rms2
05-20-2018, 04:54 PM
Hi again. Not to insert my personal family stuff into this thread, but I've been reading back through some of the posts I've missed. Still haven't seen anything extraordinary from the anti-steppe set, just the same old same old.

I'm still not in the mood for taking up the sword myself just yet. We'll be flying to California for my dad's funeral this coming Wednesday.

Don't feel like arguing with people right now.

The rest of you are doing a fine job anyway. Thanks for the well wishes.

etrusco
05-20-2018, 05:13 PM
@all

https://indo-european.eu/2017/11/correlation-does-not-mean-causation-the-damage-of-the-yamnaya-ancestral-component-and-the-future-america-hypothesis/

An article from Carlos's site. It's not intended directly as an argument of this thread but I think there's a connection with what we are talking about. Since I'm the least expert about genetics what Carlos wants to say with this article? ( he's a steppist by the way) Correlation not causation? can somebody in a divulgative way explain in what Carlos does not agree with the mainstream Yamnaya -Corded Ware relation?

alan
05-21-2018, 12:02 AM
A lot of hot air is clouding the simple fact that maykop was a non steppe non R and almost certainly non IE group. It firmly backs the view that steppe genes, R1 and IE languages are linked. The barrier was not absolute though and some R1 and a trickle of rsteppe genes was probably bleeding into the farming world from 5000bc albeit v rare.

GASKA
05-21-2018, 07:08 AM
A lot of hot air is clouding the simple fact that maykop was a non steppe non R and almost certainly non IE group. It firmly backs the view that steppe genes, R1 and IE languages are linked. The barrier was not absolute though and some R1 and a trickle of rsteppe genes was probably bleeding into the farming world from 5000bc albeit v rare.

That is the only intelligent explanation possible. The most prestigious modern linguists only dare to put approximate dates to the common Indoeuropean language (4.500-2.500 B.C), takin into account the written evidence of the Anatolian languages (2.300 B.C).

Two thousand years is a very long time, all of you have seen what has happened to Latin in that same period of time. Then the PIE language of the first migrations might not even look like the last one. Can anyone doubt the the genetic composition of steppe cultures changed over a period of 2.000 years?

And yet, many people still think that during 2.000 years the indoeuropean warriors R1b left on waves from their steppes, conquered the Old Europe, and extended their language to Transcaucasia, Irán and India. The proximity between the Classical Greek and the Sanskrit is one of the narrowest among the Indoeuropean languages. Few people doubt that there have to be steppe blood in Greece and the cultures of Central and Northern Europe (GAC, CW, Baden) 3.500-3.000 B.C.

Several Y-lineages have to be involved in the expansion of Indoeuropean languages.

Ruderico
05-21-2018, 09:15 AM
And yet, many people still think that during 2.000 years the indoeuropean warriors R1b left on waves from their steppes, conquered the Old Europe

Let's not try to make a Hollywood movie out of the whole thing. Possibly one of the main reasons for the events you're referring was the 4.2ky event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event) aridification which led to the collapse (or severe weakening) of trade and farming output for multiple advanced societies in the world, causing nomadic peoples' lifestyle to suddenly become at an advantage.

Besides let's not forget that European "farmers" were no snowflakes at all (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/6000-year-old-skeletons-french-pit-came-victims-violence).
Emergence of the Ideology of the Warrior in the Western Mediterranean during the second Half of the fourth Millennium BC (http://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_f%C3%BCr_Arch%C3%A4ologie_Eurasie ns_14_2014_p._171-184)

etrusco
05-21-2018, 09:52 AM
Ruderico

Here we have a couple of studies that confirm Gimbutas view of neolithic europe......sure those guys worshipped the mother goddess

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbjJ7qwpbbAhXCkywKHYB8AZMQFghsMA4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dw.com%2Fen%2Fearly-neolithic-mass-grave-reveals-new-evidence-of-a-violent-age-in-central-europe%2Fa-18654313&usg=AOvVaw1r3AuO-PH7WGMZ-pH_sRaK


https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiB5vTjw5bbAhXPY1AKHby0DCcQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F 28678860&usg=AOvVaw2ZVSy6MCu_dnwtmMozFQ1C

GASKA
05-21-2018, 11:21 AM
Let's not try to make a Hollywood movie out of the whole thing. Possibly one of the main reasons for the events you're referring was the 4.2ky event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event) aridification which led to the collapse (or severe weakening) of trade and farming output for multiple advanced societies in the world, causing nomadic peoples' lifestyle to suddenly become at an advantage.

Besides let's not forget that European "farmers" were no snowflakes at all (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/6000-year-old-skeletons-french-pit-came-victims-violence).
Emergence of the Ideology of the Warrior in the Western Mediterranean during the second Half of the fourth Millennium BC (http://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_f%C3%BCr_Arch%C3%A4ologie_Eurasie ns_14_2014_p._171-184)

https://www.academia.edu/6543762/La_cronolog%C3%ADa_del_dolmen_de_Montelirio_Castil leja_de_Guzm%C3%A1n_Sevilla_The_chronology_of_the_ megalithic_grave_of_Montelirio_Castilleja_de_Guzma n_Sevilla_. Nobody doubts the extension of the "Ideology of the warriors" in Old Europe, of course previous to the Bell Beaker culture. That link is about the dolmen of Montelirio. Look at the dating dates. An Individual burial, where among many other things, 178 arrowheads have already appeared. It is painted in Ochre (like Yamnaya), although this custom in Iberia is already attested in the Neolithic. At the moment we only Know his Mitochondrial haplogroup (H1). In another chamber 19 women who committed suicide simultaneously were buried.

What I doubt is that these invasions of the steppes where such invasions and not only cultural movements, and if they occurred, I doubt they were carried out exclusively by R1b.

Bell Beaker culture is a later expression of those individual burials, and only reflects that none of their funerary customs was foreign to France, Italy or Iberia. For example in the iberian chalcolitic there are dozens of halberds. Un saludo

etrusco
05-21-2018, 11:42 AM
Here's a study in german about the warriors invaders of the steppe:

http://www.academia.edu/11290617/Egalitäre_Hirtengesellschaft_versus_Nomadenkrieger _Rekonstruktion_einer_Sozialstruktur_der_Jamnaja-_und_Katakombengrabkulturen_3._Jt._v._Chr._

One must read carefully the abstract......

etrusco
05-21-2018, 11:55 AM
Some cultural traits of historical IE culture and they relations with "old europe" culture.....

single grave: present in europe in SMP culture in northern italy and Lengyel

crouched burial with flexed legs oriented east west or viceversa: overall present in old europe since the early neolithic

presence of weapons ( axes) overall presence in old europe in the middle neolithic from brittany ( Carnac) to portugal to Bulgaria, germany england italy and western ukraine north of the black sea

cremation rite : the most old europe thing ever.... massive presence in old europe from newgrange to cucuteni and roessen from the balkans and northern italy ( civate culture) Baden and Globular amphora ( cremation nowhere to be find on the steppe before their "meeting" with the farmers)

gendered burial: first appearance in Tizsapolgar cultutre in Hungary ( old europe) ...

I'm not bragging just to add to the discussion.....

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 01:00 PM
What I doubt is that these invasions of the steppes where such invasions and not only cultural movements, and if they occurred, I doubt they were carried out exclusively by R1b.

Fortunately we are at a point in time where opinions no longer matter. Completely contrary to what you wrote, ancient DNA points to both a large movement of people into Italy and Iberia that was almost entirely R-L51 driven. If your "doubts" are based on ancient DNA, then please present it.


Bell Beaker culture is a later expression of those individual burials, and only reflects that none of their funerary customs was foreign to France, Italy or Iberia. For example in the iberian chalcolitic there are dozens of halberds. Un saludo

Nobody here said that Steppe Bell Beaker were the first to bury their dead in individual graves. In Italy, that was the norm during the entire Copper Age. In Iberia however, that was not the norm.

GASKA
05-21-2018, 01:50 PM
Fortunately we are at a point in time where opinions no longer matter. Completely contrary to what you wrote, ancient DNA points to both a large movement of people into Italy and Iberia that was almost entirely R-L51 driven. If your "doubts" are based on ancient DNA, then please present it.



Nobody here said that Steppe Bell Beaker were the first to bury their dead in individual graves. In Italy, that was the norm during the entire Copper Age. In Iberia however, that was not the norm.

Doubt is human, geneticist, archaelogists, and linguists have been doubting for years and the development of new theories, always generates the appearance of others.

Richard in your first post you said " While iberian Bell Beaker, continued the Neolithic practice of collective tombs". Not even in the early chalcolithic all the inhumations were collective, I just sent the example of Montelirio (2.875 B.C), imagine the variety of burials 500 years later (dolmens, mounds, caves, pits....). Iberian Be

GASKA
05-21-2018, 02:22 PM
Fortunately we are at a point in time where opinions no longer matter. Completely contrary to what you wrote, ancient DNA points to both a large movement of people into Italy and Iberia that was almost entirely R-L51 driven. If your "doubts" are based on ancient DNA, then please present it.



Nobody here said that Steppe Bell Beaker were the first to bury their dead in individual graves. In Italy, that was the norm during the entire Copper Age. In Iberia however, that was not the norm.

Sorry,

Iberian Bell Beakers practice all this burials, and in them were buried individuals of different haplogroups (R1b, I2, even G2 and CT). Anyway here we are to find the origin of the Oldest steppe Bell Beakers, and these obviusly aren't the Iberian or Italian BB, but the Central European.

I'm not completely contrary to what you wrote but

Are you sure that there were no cultural movements in Western Europe that are no related with human movements? I don't have it so clear, the same Bell Beaker technique seem to have been moved without major population movements.

Are you sure that all the population movements of the steppes were carried out by R1b men? I don't have it so clear, I don't think if there were different haplogroups, they chose the L51 men to emigrate.

I agree with you that there were movements of people L51(P312) into Italy and Iberia, but When they occurred ? and It mean´t an important change in the composition of male haplogroups?

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 02:23 PM
Here's a study in german about the warriors invaders of the steppe:

http://www.academia.edu/11290617/Egalitäre_Hirtengesellschaft_versus_Nomadenkrieger _Rekonstruktion_einer_Sozialstruktur_der_Jamnaja-_und_Katakombengrabkulturen_3._Jt._v._Chr._

One must read carefully the abstract......

The conclusion of the paper is nonsense. Yamnaya sample I0444, radiocarbon dated to 3335-2881 BC was buried with a blunt mace 48 cm long. Not surprisingly, he was L23+ Z2103+.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/I0444.png

In the same cemetery we have have Yamnaya sample I0443 which was killed by an unhealed blunt-force trauma to his right parietal by a hammer-like weapon. He is the only confirmed L23+ Z2103- L51- sample to date. Let's not pretend these were peaceful hippies people, because they weren't.

Like I said in a previous post, unless one's opinions are backed by ancient DNA, it is very hard to taken them seriously.

etrusco
05-21-2018, 02:42 PM
unless one's opinions are backed by ancient DNA, it is very hard to taken them seriously.

A very striking sentence really.......I cannot believe you really mean it....so...

we can rule out there ever was a roman empire because there was no genes flow from latium to other territories
we can rule out that christianity came from middle east because we don't have genetic proofs
we can rule out that english had an empire in africa and asia because we don't find U106 in nigeria and pakistan....


I know I too am pushing a little bit but genetics is only an (important sure) part of the approach to ancient history but it cannot be overestimated as you pretend....

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 02:47 PM
A very striking sentence really.......I cannot believe you really mean it....so...

we can rule out there ever was a roman empire because there was no genes flow from latium to other territories
we can rule out that christianity came from middle east because we don't have genetic proofs
we can rule out that english had an empire in africa and asia because we don't find U106 in nigeria and pakistan....


I know I too am pushing a little bit but genetics is only an (important sure) part of the approach to ancient history but it cannot be overestimated as you pretend....

Clever, but not a valid argument. For all of those examples, we have written accounts of exactly what happened (ex. the brilliant De Bello Gallico by Julius Caesar) so there was never a need to come up with theories.

Mr. Snow
05-21-2018, 03:16 PM
If your "doubts" are based on ancient DNA, then please present it.

We have this study here (http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/114/38/10083.full.pdf) saying this about central European Bell Beaker:

"The striking patterns of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed over at least 800 y between about 2500 and 1700 BC"

Considering this practice and that Bell Beaker in central Europe consisted of small pockets surrounded by Corded Ware, would you agree that central European Bell Beakers must have significant Corded Ware admixture from the maternal side? What would you say is the autosomal profile of Bell Beakers without the Corded Ware admixture?

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 03:30 PM
We have this study here (http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/114/38/10083.full.pdf) saying this about central European Bell Beaker:

"The striking patterns of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed over at least 800 y between about 2500 and 1700 BC"

Considering this practice and that Bell Beaker in central Europe consisted of small pockets surrounded by Corded Ware, would you agree that central European Bell Beakers must have significant Corded Ware admixture from the maternal side? What would you say is the autosomal profile of Bell Beakers without the Corded Ware admixture?

Considering that L23 (regardless of Z2103 or L51) is the common link between paternal and steppe ancestry in all samples, it is pretty obvious that L51 had steppe ancestry before Corded Ware. The L11+ P312- U106- Proto-Nagyrev sample, which is from a Vucedol derived culture, is a pretty good example of that.

Mr. Snow
05-21-2018, 03:53 PM
Considering that L23 (regardless of Z2103 or L51) is the common link between paternal and steppe ancestry in all samples, it is pretty obvious that L51 had steppe ancestry before Corded Ware. The L11+ P312- U106- Proto-Nagyrev sample, which is from a Vucedol derived culture, is a pretty good example of that.

Is that your argument, R1b-L23?
https://i.imgur.com/dP3jpJZ.gif
There is this R1b-L23 Highway connecting Armenia, northern Anatolia, Romania and Italy, when do you think it got there?
I have something here that might help
https://i.imgur.com/omXr3Tb.jpg
Variance of L23 is highest in Armenia, then Romania, then Italy in Europe. Poland is at the bottom as are Bashkirs who are the Y-DNA descendants of Yamnaya, what do you think that means?

razyn
05-21-2018, 05:01 PM
Variance of L23 is highest in Armenia, then Romania, then Italy in Europe. Poland is at the bottom as are Bashkirs who are the Y-DNA descendants of Yamnaya, what do you think that means?

It means that heat maps based on the modern population (and, usually, bikini haplotypes) are lousy indicators of what happened several thousand years ago.

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 05:03 PM
Is that your argument, R1b-L23?

There is this R1b-L23 Highway connecting Armenia, northern Anatolia, Romania and Italy, when do you think it got there?
I have something here that might help

Modern DNA... is that your argument? Since I've asked many times, where is your ancient DNA evidence? Please show me all of those ancient L23+ samples from those regions. And by the way, there has been a lot of migrations after Yamnaya that would explain L23 in those areas.


Variance of L23 is highest in Armenia, then Romania, then Italy in Europe. Poland is at the bottom as are Bashkirs who are the Y-DNA descendants of Yamnaya, what do you think that means?

Thanks for proving my point yet again about the irrelevance of modern DNA. That variance is lowest in the Bashkirs and ancient DNA showing its existence on the steppe but not in Anatolia ca. 3500 BC. That should lead even the most closed-minded person to not bring it up in an argument. Again, thanks.

GASKA
05-21-2018, 06:21 PM
The conclusion of the paper is nonsense. Yamnaya sample I0444, radiocarbon dated to 3335-2881 BC was buried with a blunt mace 48 cm long. Not surprisingly, he was L23+ Z2103+.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/I0444.png

In the same cemetery we have have Yamnaya sample I0443 which was killed by an unhealed blunt-force trauma to his right parietal by a hammer-like weapon. He is the only confirmed L23+ Z2103- L51- sample to date. Let's not pretend these were peaceful hippies people, because they weren't.

Like I said in a previous post, unless one's opinions are backed by ancient DNA, it is very hard to taken them seriously.

I said I doubt they were carried out exclusively by R1b- I am referring not only to the genetic uniformity of Yamnaya, Maykop etc... but also those who entered Iberia. This is ancient Dna.

Iñigo Olalde says-Pag 147- "Sample I6471 is assigned a different label as it appears to have significantly more steppe ancestry than the BK-Spain-MAD2 group (individuals I6472, I6623, I6539, I6588). Coincidentally I6472 and I6539 are men, and the two R1b.

Pag 19- "I6471 RISE700- "the mound 4081.......This is a restly place of an adult male (I6471) and an infant, buried at different phases. Bound to the adult we found 2 pots, a Ciempozuelos type Beaker, a Palmela point and a flint knife". So a Bell Beaker man. Olalde doesn't mention anything about having problems to analyze this sample, I believe that if it had been P312 it would not have published it.

Is there enough reason to doubt, that the individual with more steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker Iberia is CT and not R1b?

That means that steppe warriors were also CT? Or it is truly an incomplete and/or erroneous sample.

jdean
05-21-2018, 06:42 PM
Is there enough reason to doubt, that the individual with more steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker Iberia is CT and not R1b?

I haven't personally looked at these results but we get this a lot with aDNA.

All aDNA has hole in it and remains from hotter climates tend to be in a worse state than those found in colder areas.

If the DNA is in a particularly poor condition frequently the people doing the analysis find the best they can do is report the results as something a long way up the tree, in fact all R1b men are also CT (https://www.yfull.com/tree/CT/) but the time to the MRCA for CT is about 70 thousand yrs ago.

The same thing applies when they say a result was R1b

R.Rocca
05-21-2018, 07:00 PM
I said I doubt they were carried out exclusively by R1b- I am referring not only to the genetic uniformity of Yamnaya, Maykop etc... but also those who entered Iberia. This is ancient Dna.

Iñigo Olalde says-Pag 147- "Sample I6471 is assigned a different label as it appears to have significantly more steppe ancestry than the BK-Spain-MAD2 group (individuals I6472, I6623, I6539, I6588). Coincidentally I6472 and I6539 are men, and the two R1b.

Pag 19- "I6471 RISE700- "the mound 4081.......This is a restly place of an adult male (I6471) and an infant, buried at different phases. Bound to the adult we found 2 pots, a Ciempozuelos type Beaker, a Palmela point and a flint knife". So a Bell Beaker man. Olalde doesn't mention anything about having problems to analyze this sample, I believe that if it had been P312 it would not have published it.

Is there enough reason to doubt, that the individual with more steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker Iberia is CT and not R1b?

That means that steppe warriors were also CT? Or it is truly an incomplete and/or erroneous sample.

Sample I6471 only has 36,656 SNPs in autosomes that were readable. In order to get an accurate Y-haplogroup classification, you need a sample with at least 10 times that amount to usually call P312 and 20 times that amount to call U152, L21 etc. Therefore, the CT classification is a starting point.

Romilius
05-21-2018, 08:18 PM
Sample I6471 only has 36,656 SNPs in autosomes that were readable. In order to get an accurate Y-haplogroup classification, you need a sample with at least 10 times that amount to usually call P312 and 20 times that amount to call U152, L21 etc. Therefore, the CT classification is a starting point.

That sample isn't only CT because of sample bad coverage... but also, for sure, CT xI xG xE... so it leaves very few possibilities... probably it could be H or R.

I asked many times Genetiker to process the BAM file of that sample... but it seems Genetiker has disappeared from the web since March.

uintah106
05-21-2018, 08:28 PM
That sample isn't only CT because of sample bad coverage... but also, for sure, CT xI xG xE... so it leaves very few possibilities... probably it could be H or R.

I asked many times Genetiker to process the BAM file of that sample... but it seems Genetiker has disappeared from the web since March.

He's in south America looking for quezacoatl .

anglesqueville
05-21-2018, 08:55 PM
That sample isn't only CT because of sample bad coverage... but also, for sure, CT xI xG xE... so it leaves very few possibilities... probably it could be H or R.

I asked many times Genetiker to process the BAM file of that sample... but it seems Genetiker has disappeared from the web since March.

The BAM of I6471 is less than 10 Mb ( I did write "Mb", not "Gb"). There is just nothing to analyse inside.

dsm
05-21-2018, 10:28 PM
Richard Rocca,

Please accept my thanks for showing such a high level of tolerance and politeness in your responses to particular posts.

D

rms2
05-21-2018, 10:30 PM
. . .

Is there enough reason to doubt, that the individual with more steppe ancestry in Bell Beaker Iberia is CT and not R1b?

That means that steppe warriors were also CT? Or it is truly an incomplete and/or erroneous sample.

I believe I explained this to you before, but apparently you missed it. CT (M168) is a far upstream haplogroup designation. Every man in the world, except those in y-dna haplogroups A and B, is derived (positive) for CT. It's really old. That Bell Beaker man was not really just CT, i.e., a throwback to the Paleolithic Period. Olalde et al called him CT because that's as far as they could get with his sample.

A CT designation in a sample like that really means he could have been anything from C through T. Probably he was R1b-P312, but you can argue he wasn't, because we'll never know. One thing is certain, however: he wasn't merely CT.

Here is a tree I made that might help you see the big y-dna picture. It's a simple tree, so it doesn't get as far downstream as R1b-L23, etc.

23323

rms2
05-21-2018, 11:09 PM
It seems to me the same ill-advised argument keeps arising as a means to explain away the connection between R1b-L51 (a rubric for its relevant subclades, as well) and steppe dna. That argument is that R1b-L51 males, who must have been - what? - Neolithic farmers, bequeathed steppe dna to subsequent generations of Kurgan Bell Beaker people by marrying Corded Ware women. There are several things wrong with that argument.

First off, there is no evidence that Kurgan Bell Beaker had a mtDNA profile that resembled that of Corded Ware. The study, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), found that the mtDNA profile of GAC was closest to Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from those of Corded Ware, Srubnaya, and Yamnaya. Bell Beaker could not have had a Corded Ware mtDNA profile if GAC was closest to its mtDNA profile and "clearly separated" from the mtDNA profile of Corded Ware. If Bell Beaker men were acquiring steppe dna from Corded Ware women, then Bell Beaker people should have had a Corded Ware mtDNA profile, and GAC should have been as clearly separated from it as it was from the mtDNA profile of Corded Ware.



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).


Remember, too, that Olalde et al found that the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker was GAC + Swedish TRB. So, apparently Kurgan Bell Beaker men were taking GAC women as wives, and not Corded Ware women.

If R1b-L51 were non-IE in origin, and was Indo-Europeanized via its contingent of Corded Ware wives, that would turn what is known about patrilocality in tribal societies on its head. In patrilocal cultures, the bride goes to live with the groom's family. In tribal societies that are patrilocal, it is the groom's language and culture that triumph. So, even if Kurgan Bell Beaker men sometimes took Corded Ware wives (which does not seem to have occurred too often), Kurgan Bell Beaker must have already been Indo-European in language and culture.

In patrilocal tribal societies foreign brides are not change agents or innovators.

This is from David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 153:



But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation.


If the steppe dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker was mediated via Corded Ware females, how did they screw up the Corded Ware burial rite in their new Kurgan Bell Beaker environment? After all, there are considerable differences between Kurgan Bell Beaker and Corded Ware burials, e.g., different orientation of the body, emphasis on archery in the former and on axes in the latter, etc.

No, Kurgan Bell Beaker did not acquire its steppe dna from Corded Ware women.

Webb
05-21-2018, 11:27 PM
When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia that's a pattern. What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead? Can't take aDNA at face value.

L238 is not found in Iberia. Currently or ancient.

Webb
05-21-2018, 11:46 PM
Is that your argument, R1b-L23?
https://i.imgur.com/dP3jpJZ.gif
There is this R1b-L23 Highway connecting Armenia, northern Anatolia, Romania and Italy, when do you think it got there?
I have something here that might help
https://i.imgur.com/omXr3Tb.jpg
Variance of L23 is highest in Armenia, then Romania, then Italy in Europe. Poland is at the bottom as are Bashkirs who are the Y-DNA descendants of Yamnaya, what do you think that means?

Variance isn’t a good tool to use. You can ask R.Rocca about variance. He used it for several years to the chagrin of the DF27 folks to illustrate the possibility of an Iberian origin/ early development of said DF27 using 25 markers, if my memory serves me correctly. Thank goodness, using variance to compute an origin has gone by the wayside. So far the oldest DF27 found to date is in Germany, which is what I have expected for many years. I think even R.Rocca has changed his mind on the Iberian origin thing. Razyn, my favorite dried grape, has pushed for an origin even further east than Germany, which is starting to appear to be a real possibility with the onslaught of ancient U152 found in Cespel Island. Variance is not a good method to use.

razyn
05-22-2018, 02:34 AM
Razyn, my favorite dried grape, has pushed for an origin [for the DF27 mutation] even further east than Germany

That is clearly an ad hominem compliment, and I'll have you know that I deeply resemble it.

GASKA
05-22-2018, 07:18 AM
Sample I6471 only has 36,656 SNPs in autosomes that were readable. In order to get an accurate Y-haplogroup classification, you need a sample with at least 10 times that amount to usually call P312 and 20 times that amount to call U152, L21 etc. Therefore, the CT classification is a starting point.

Thank you for answering me. I believe that I6471 is not the only the starting point, but also the final point, because until the opposite is proven, the BB sample with the most steppe dna in Iberia belongs to haplogroup CT. In Iberia there is another sample (I6596), even in Germany (I5530) and England (I5374).

There is also BT - Iberia (I6589) and Poland (I6481-I6535). Haplogroup F- Iberia (I6542-I6629) and Scotland (I5473).

I suppose all will be samples with incomplete DNa. It would be good to clarify it, to dispel doubts

rms2
05-22-2018, 08:32 AM
Several people have endeavored to explain to you what a CT finding in a sample from the 3rd millennium BC means, i.e., that the sample wasn't of sufficient quality to allow for further resolution, but you refuse to accept that explanation, apparently because it doesn't suit your preferences.

YFull has the tmrca of CT at 68,500 ybp.

No man in the 3rd millennium BC was merely CT and nothing more.

anglesqueville
05-22-2018, 09:36 AM
Thank you for answering me. I believe that I6471 is not the only the starting point, but also the final point, because until the opposite is proven, the BB sample with the most steppe dna in Iberia belongs to haplogroup CT. In Iberia there is another sample (I6596), even in Germany (I5530) and England (I5374).

There is also BT - Iberia (I6589) and Poland (I6481-I6535). Haplogroup F- Iberia (I6542-I6629) and Scotland (I5473).

I suppose all will be samples with incomplete DNa. It would be good to clarify it, to dispel doubts

Just for info:
I6596: 11Mb
I5530: 1.77 Mb (!!!)
I5374: 13.88 Mb

against for example I2636: 933 Mb (which btw is not a very big bam)

You may open the European Nucleotid Archive page ( access number: PRJEB23635). You select "bulk download", and then "submitted" (in a java window). You can then verify the size of the BAM files. You must know that it's very usual to find BAM files up to 15 or 20 Gb.

GASKA
05-22-2018, 09:56 AM
It seems to me the same ill-advised argument keeps arising as a means to explain away the connection between R1b-L51 (a rubric for its relevant subclades, as well) and steppe dna. That argument is that R1b-L51 males, who must have been - what? - Neolithic farmers, bequeathed steppe dna to subsequent generations of Kurgan Bell Beaker people by marrying Corded Ware women. There are several things wrong with that argument.

First off, there is no evidence that Kurgan Bell Beaker had a mtDNA profile that resembled that of Corded Ware. The study, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), found that the mtDNA profile of GAC was closest to Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from those of Corded Ware, Srubnaya, and Yamnaya. Bell Beaker could not have had a Corded Ware mtDNA profile if GAC was closest to its mtDNA profile and "clearly separated" from the mtDNA profile of Corded Ware. If Bell Beaker men were acquiring steppe dna from Corded Ware women, then Bell Beaker people should have had a Corded Ware mtDNA profile, and GAC should have been as clearly separated from it as it was from the mtDNA profile of Corded Ware.



Remember, too, that Olalde et al found that the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker was GAC + Swedish TRB. So, apparently Kurgan Bell Beaker men were taking GAC women as wives, and not Corded Ware women.

If R1b-L51 were non-IE in origin, and was Indo-Europeanized via its contingent of Corded Ware wives, that would turn what is known about patrilocality in tribal societies on its head. In patrilocal cultures, the bride goes to live with the groom's family. In tribal societies that are patrilocal, it is the groom's language and culture that triumph. So, even if Kurgan Bell Beaker men sometimes took Corded Ware wives (which does not seem to have occurred too often), Kurgan Bell Beaker must have already been Indo-European in language and culture.

In patrilocal tribal societies foreign brides are not change agents or innovators.

This is from David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 153:



If the steppe dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker was mediated via Corded Ware females, how did they screw up the Corded Ware burial rite in their new Kurgan Bell Beaker environment? After all, there are considerable differences between Kurgan Bell Beaker and Corded Ware burials, e.g., different orientation of the body, emphasis on archery in the former and on axes in the latter, etc.

No, Kurgan Bell Beaker did not acquire its steppe dna from Corded Ware women.

1.- Affirming that KBB didn't acquire its steppe dna from CW women is therefore a recklessness, because there is not evidence that this was true, it seems to me that we have evidence to the contrary- In the first post of this thread, Rocca made reference to the sample of Bleckendorf. He said literally "The Yamnaya BB classification puts him squarely in the L23 conversation" and "If we consider pottery making as a female craft, his wife could be very well have been a CW woman" . So we already have the first KBB with a Cw woman

2.- The argument of patrilocal society does not make much sense- In patrilocal cultures, the brides goes to live with the groom's family, it is the groom's culture and language triumph. Foreign brides are not change agents or innovators.

Post 231- You said "the ancient basque marriage system was matrilocal, the groom went to live with the bride's family. If he was a non basque foreigner, he would have to leran the language and culture of the bride's family". "The basques acquirong steppe ydna and autosomal dna while simultaneously preserving their language and culture".

So, the KBB of the steppes come to the territory of the corded ware culture, and as they belong to a patriarchal society, women go to live with their grooms, and the culture of the grooms triumph, however they arrive in Iberia they go to live with their wife`s family and decide to leave their language.

That alone may have the explanation that Basque women were prettier than Central european woman. As I don't believe, that you are the first person to have discovered what the marriage system of the Iberians was in the Chalcolitic (do you believe that the institution of marriage exist?), I think we will both agree that the cause of the abandonment of their language by the brave warriors of the steppes is a big mistery.

3-How did they screw up the CW burial rite in their new Kurgan BB environment- According to the archaelogist who excavated the burial, Bleckendorf is a clear example of yamnaya or bell beaker man with Corded ware ceramics in its burial.

GASKA
05-22-2018, 10:30 AM
Just for info:
I6596: 11Mb
I5530: 1.77 Mb (!!!)
I5374: 13.88 Mb

against for example I2636: 933 Mb (which btw is not a very big bam)

You may open the European Nucleotid Archive page ( access number: PRJEB23635). You select "bulk download", and then "submitted" (in a java window). You can then verify the size of the BAM files. You must know that it's very usual to find BAM files up to 15 or 20 Gb.

Thank you very much. I have already said that we are here to learn (genetics, european prehistory, linguistics..)

If we have to remove those cases from the Olalde's work, that means that 35% of Iberian BB was R1b. That percentage and the fact of its scarce autosomal dna, mean for us that they have been in Iberia for a long time. In any case we have very little information about Y-haplogroups in the Iberian chalcolithic.

rms2
05-22-2018, 12:09 PM
1.- Affirming that KBB didn't acquire its steppe dna from CW women is therefore a recklessness, because there is not evidence that this was true, it seems to me that we have evidence to the contrary- In the first post of this thread, Rocca made reference to the sample of Bleckendorf. He said literally "The Yamnaya BB classification puts him squarely in the L23 conversation" and "If we consider pottery making as a female craft, his wife could be very well have been a CW woman" . So we already have the first KBB with a Cw woman

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but I explained myself pretty well. Kurgan Bell Beaker did not have a Corded Ware mtDNA profile. It should, however, if its men were taking Corded Ware wives and that is how they bequeathed steppe dna to subsequent generations. Instead, Kurgan Bell Beaker had a mtDNA profile that was closer to that of the Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), and the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker was GAC + Swedish TRB.

There is nothing reckless about asserting that Kurgan Bell Beaker did not acquire its steppe dna from Corded Ware women, because that is what the evidence indicates. The argument that Kurgan Bell Beaker acquired its steppe dna from Corded Ware women never was a serious one. It always amounted to a knee-jerk effort to deny R1b-L51 a steppe origin once R1b-L23 started showing up in Yamnaya and R1b-L51 started showing up in Kurgan Bell Beaker.



2.- The argument of patrilocal society does not make much sense- In patrilocal cultures, the brides goes to live with the groom's family, it is the groom's culture and language triumph. Foreign brides are not change agents or innovators.

It makes perfect sense. If a Corded Ware bride went to live in her husband's Bell Beaker family, she would not introduce Corded Ware culture and Indo-European language, because that is not what foreign brides do. Instead, as Anthony pointed out, they become "hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores".

So, there is no way Kurgan Bell Beaker was Indo-Europeanized by females.



Post 231- You said "the ancient basque marriage system was matrilocal, the groom went to live with the bride's family. If he was a non basque foreigner, he would have to leran the language and culture of the bride's family". "The basques acquirong steppe ydna and autosomal dna while simultaneously preserving their language and culture".

So, the KBB of the steppes come to the territory of the corded ware culture, and as they belong to a patriarchal society, women go to live with their grooms, and the culture of the grooms triumph, however they arrive in Iberia they go to live with their wife`s family and decide to leave their language.

Please pay closer attention. I did not say KBB invaders or any other kind of invaders arrived in Iberia and immediately moved in with Basque families. I said the Basques acquired their steppe dna and their R1b-M269 via admixture with their IE-speaking neighbors. That probably took some time. The Basque matrilocal marriage tradition facilitated it.



That alone may have the explanation that Basque women were prettier than Central european woman. As I don't believe, that you are the first person to have discovered what the marriage system of the Iberians was in the Chalcolitic (do you believe that the institution of marriage exist?), I think we will both agree that the cause of the abandonment of their language by the brave warriors of the steppes is a big mistery.

I explained all that before, as well. From what I have read, the ancient Basques were a matriarchal culture that worshiped the mother goddess Mari, had matrilineal inheritance laws, and had a matrilocal marriage tradition.

In a matrilocal system, the groom goes to live with the bride's family. As a consequence, his children are born and raised in their mother's cultural milieu and not in their father's cultural milieu. They grow up speaking the language of their mother and her family because that is who is present with them. It would not take much - lucky chance and drift - to cause some outsider y-dna to become dominant within a few generations of its introduction. Meanwhile, the Basque language and culture would carry on, even as the Basque y-dna profile was altered.



3-How did they screw up the CW burial rite in their new Kurgan BB environment- According to the archaelogist who excavated the burial, Bleckendorf is a clear example of yamnaya or bell beaker man with Corded ware ceramics in its burial.

We don't know to what y-dna haplogroup the Bleckendorf man belonged, and that burial is neither Bell Beaker nor Corded Ware. It's more like a Yamnaya burial - on the back, with flexed legs, etc.

Think for a minute. What makes a burial a CW burial? One or two CW pots? No, it is a package. The same goes for Bell Beaker burials.

If Kurgan Bell Beaker was Indo-Europeanized by Corded Ware women - which is extremely unlikely - then why didn't those Corded Ware women introduce the correct Corded Ware burial rite to their husbands? Instead they allowed all sorts of differences between the two types of rite to occur.

R.Rocca
05-22-2018, 12:45 PM
Thank you very much. I have already said that we are here to learn (genetics, european prehistory, linguistics..)

If we have to remove those cases from the Olalde's work, that means that 35% of Iberian BB was R1b.

No, it means that archaeologists should stop classifying entire sites as Bell Beaker in Iberia when it comes from collective burials that also contain pre-Bell Beaker material. Please read these two posts to see how serious this issue is:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14053-The-Bell-Beaker-Homeland&p=383484&viewfull=1#post383484

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14053-The-Bell-Beaker-Homeland&p=383767&viewfull=1#post383767


That percentage and the fact of its scarce autosomal dna, mean for us that they have been in Iberia for a long time. In any case we have very little information about Y-haplogroups in the Iberian chalcolithic.

If you mean R1b has been in Iberia for a long time, then the answer is yes, R1b-V88 likely has been there for a long time. L23 and steppe ancestry on the other hand has not, and we have enough Chalcolithic and Neolithic samples from all corners of Iberia to demonstrate that.

GASKA
05-22-2018, 02:08 PM
I wish we had that Bleckendorf man's genome. Certainly is a strange burial, so far west, yet so Yamnaya-like. The CW beaker bothers me a little, but he wasn't buried CW style, and there is that dagger rather than the usual CW stone battle axe.

Me too. You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible? Rocca spoke about a possible origin of L11/P312 in Saxony Anhalt, and after he said-"The most diverse L51 is around the Rhine (L51-DF100-U106-DF99-DF19-L21-DF27-U152). What can we expect about Bleckendorf?

1- Can anyone imagine that Bleckendorf is L51 or L11 or P312? After all it is only 20 miles from Kromsdorf. Then all his steppe Dna could easily be justified by the obvius relationship between CW and Yamnaya. This would help to demonstrate the central european or western origin of the haplogroup. I suppose then the ceramics found in the burial would be a simple coincidence, it could have been bought, it would be a gift from a friend or it would be an error of the archaelogists.

2.- What happens if Bleckendorf is R1a or any other haplogroup?- The the theory of the steppe origin of L51 will have returned to self destruct, because the sample according with the archaelogists and geneticist is evidently a Bell beaker man. Then Yamnaya would not be exclusively R1b (I think that this is evident), and the paths of arrival in Saxony would not much sense.

Another day we will continue talking about how the Goddess Mari contributed to the abandonment by the Indoeuropeans of their native language and other aspects of your KBB theory

GASKA
05-22-2018, 02:22 PM
No, it means that archaeologists should stop classifying entire sites as Bell Beaker in Iberia when it comes from collective burials that also contain pre-Bell Beaker material. Please read these two posts to see how serious this issue is:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14053-The-Bell-Beaker-Homeland&p=383484&viewfull=1#post383484

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14053-The-Bell-Beaker-Homeland&p=383767&viewfull=1#post383767



If you mean R1b has been in Iberia for a long time, then the answer is yes, R1b-V88 likely has been there for a long time. L23 and steppe ancestry on the other hand has not, and we have enough Chalcolithic and Neolithic samples from all corners of Iberia to demonstrate that.

Everything depends on what you consider a long time. I don't know how to calculate the loss of autosomal dna until it is reduced to 15%-1-2-3 generations? 50-100-200 years? I think the oldest P312 in Iberia is about 2.250 B.C.

I agree with you that the BB leavels in Paris Street have to be wrong, or the deposists mixed. It is an urban site difficult to excavate with scientific guarantees. If we discard those 2 R1b and the I that accompany them we still have 25-30%.

rms2
05-22-2018, 02:22 PM
Me too. You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible? Rocca spoke about a possible origin of L11/P312 in Saxony Anhalt, and after he said-"The most diverse L51 is around the Rhine (L51-DF100-U106-DF99-DF19-L21-DF27-U152). What can we expect about Bleckendorf?

1- Can anyone imagine that Bleckendorf is L51 or L11 or P312? After all it is only 20 miles from Kromsdorf. Then all his steppe Dna could easily be justified by the obvius relationship between CW and Yamnaya. This would help to demonstrate the central european or western origin of the haplogroup. I suppose then the ceramics found in the burial would be a simple coincidence, it could have been bought, it would be a gift from a friend or it would be an error of the archaelogists.

If he turns out to be L51 of some kind, that would be great, because that would be an instance of L51 in Yamnaya. Game over.

That would not mean what you evidently think it means, i.e., that L51 was Indo-Europeanized by either CW or Yamnaya women or both.



2.- What happens if Bleckendorf is R1a or any other haplogroup?- The the theory of the steppe origin of L51 will have returned to self destruct, because the sample according with the archaelogists and geneticist is evidently a Bell beaker man. Then Yamnaya would not be exclusively R1b (I think that this is evident), and the paths of arrival in Saxony would not much sense.

If he is R1a, how does that change much of anything? How does it undo all the R1b-L51 results in Kurgan Bell Beaker that are tied to steppe dna? How does it change the likelihood of R1b-L51 having a steppe origin?



Another day we will continue talking about how the Goddess Mari contributed to the abandonment by the Indoeuropeans of their native language and other aspects of your KBB theory

What the heck are you talking about? What "abandonment by the Indoeuropeans of their native language"? I was talking about admixture over a long period of time, which is how I believe the Basques acquired both their steppe dna and their R1b-P312. So, get that right. No one was talking about a mass incursion of Indo-Europeans into Basque society. I was talking about the occasional outsider groom marrying a Basque bride and moving in with her family. If one such man had a lot of sons, and those sons or at least one of their y-dna descendants had a lot of sons, and so on, the Basque y-dna profile could have been altered. IMHO, the original Basque y-dna profile was predominantly I2a.

ADW_1981
05-22-2018, 02:42 PM
When all the basal clades of P312 are found around Iberia that's a pattern. What if early R1b people in Iberia are trading alcoholic beverages on Beakers with the local I2a people and only the locals are burying pots with their dead? Can't take aDNA at face value.

What's a "Basal" clade of P312? You mean like L238? Oh right, you didn't know that one did you. The basal clades are found mostly in northern west-central Europe.

anglesqueville
05-22-2018, 03:52 PM
Just a short emotional outburst... "You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible?". This sentence is just outstanding. Incredible.

rms2
05-22-2018, 04:34 PM
Just a short emotional outburst... "You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible?". This sentence is just outstanding. Incredible.

Some posts back, I expressed the desire to have a subforum here at Anthrogenica in which people who accept the idea that L51 is of steppe origin could have discussions.

Then I was accused of wanting to stifle scientific expression and/or curiosity, of wanting a "safe space", blah, blah blah. Of course, none of that is true. I never said anything about wanting to stop anyone from expressing himself or herself at Anthrogenica. Rather, I am just really tired of seeing what started out as a really interesting thread degenerate into a back-to-basics, a-b-c-1-2-3 defense of the steppe origin of R1b-L51 because one or two people, usually with some sort of chauvinistic, ethno-nationalist-inspired agenda, arrive and start arguing.

Let them go start threads of their own about where they think L51 came from and how it got where it is now. No one is stopping them.

But it sure would be nice if the rest of us could discuss and speculate without having periodically to return to the "Hooked on Phonics" version of prehistory.

Okay, won't happen until every ancient corpse in Eurasia has been unearthed and its entire genome obtained, I know.

GoldenHind
05-22-2018, 04:35 PM
After reading some of the posts on this thread, I feel compelled to quote H. L. Mencken:

"For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong."

MikeWhalen
05-22-2018, 05:05 PM
^
or trolling...just saying guys
does not some of the input from a few posters seem quite artificial now, and just done to see how long they can keep this game up?

M

jdean
05-22-2018, 05:13 PM
Just a short emotional outburst... "You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible?". This sentence is just outstanding. Incredible.

And I'm reminded of a joke I've recently come across.


How do you think the unthinkable ?

With an itheburgh

Totally irrelevant I know but it makes me smile : )

GASKA
05-22-2018, 05:33 PM
If he turns out to be L51 of some kind, that would be great, because that would be an instance of L51 in Yamnaya. Game over.

That would not mean what you evidently think it means, i.e., that L51 was Indo-Europeanized by either CW or Yamnaya women or both.



If he is R1a, how does that change much of anything? How does it undo all the R1b-L51 results in Kurgan Bell Beaker that are tied to steppe dna? How does it change the likelihood of R1b-L51 having a steppe origin?



What the heck are you talking about? What "abandonment by the Indoeuropeans of their native language"? I was talking about admixture over a long period of time, which is how I believe the Basques acquired both their steppe dna and their R1b-P312. So, get that right. No one was talking about a mass incursion of Indo-Europeans into Basque society. I was talking about the occasional outsider groom marrying a Basque bride and moving in with her family. If one such man had a lot of sons, and those sons or at least one of their y-dna descendants had a lot of sons, and so on, the Basque y-dna profile could have been altered. IMHO, the original Basque y-dna profile was predominantly I2a.

Game over?, If Bleckendorf was L51, the game as only just begun, because the evidence of its origin in Yamnaya would be reduced to a copper dagger. Thank God, today we can do tests with isotopes of oxigen and strontium that can help us to find the regions of provenance of human remains. If it were R1a, this would mean that this haplogroup existed in Yamna Culture (2.700 B.C), which could not be genetically uniform enough to give rise to a compact population of L51/P312 that would later form all of its subclades.

Keep calm your theory about the basques is incresingly interesting.

1.- You should know that when the Romans arrived in Hispania (218 B.C), the NON IE languages were spoken in more than half of the territory of the peninsula- The Basque in Navarre, Alto Aragon (Huesca) and north of the Pyrenees (Aquitaine) and the IBERIAN language in Catalonia, Valencia, Murcia, Albacete, Ciudad Real, Eastern Andalucia. Not only the basques resisted the thrust of the Indoeuropean language, also the aquitans, jacetanos, ilergetes, ilercavones, edetanos, suesetanos etc....
2.- Curiosly in these regions the haplogroup P312 has the highest percentages in the world.
3.- You think your theory about the basque language, could be applied to all these peoples?
4.- All these people are matrilochal societies?
5.- How much do you think the acculturation process lasted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

I thought I would learn some genetics with you, but I have realized that it is a waste of time. So quiet Rms2 you can continue telling your theory to your followers without my interruptions. And continue looking for L51 in Siberia

Dewsloth
05-22-2018, 05:51 PM
^
or trolling...just saying guys
does not some of the input from a few posters seem quite artificial now, and just done to see how long they can keep this game up?

M


Yes, or reading from a script.

1. New paper comes out.
2. Troll(s) assume(s) new identity with old argument.

alan
05-22-2018, 06:36 PM
The difficulty finding L51 in Yamnaya is not unique. R1a has the same problem but no one is denying its IE and from a Yamnaya clone population.

Reality is y lineages are hard to find in ancient dna until they have been massively expanding for a few generations. There may hav been only a hundred men after 100 years

In a clan structure practicing the endogeny there is basically no way of growing as even a deep large clan will tend to contain roughly equal numbers of males and females in each generation. So non symmetrical exogeny (taking more wives from outside than go in the other direction is almost essential to expanding a male clan society. You will notice that both Yamnaya and beaker only expanded after their immediate ancestors had had a phase of massivee absorption of genes from women in neighbouring farming cultures (CHG into EHG to create Yamnaya then massive absorption of GAC into a Yamnaya-like population to create beaker. That is no coincidence imo.

It seems likely that the type of clan based society that L23 inhabited consistently needed access to wives from another culture in order to undergo a sort of ethnogenesis and expansion phase. That is almost certainly a fact of life for male clan lineage based societies. what limits or fascilitates the growth of a male clan is the number of available women. Women have reproductive limitations that men do not have.

Romilius
05-22-2018, 06:59 PM
Game over?, If Bleckendorf was L51, the game as only just begun, because the evidence of its origin in Yamnaya would be reduced to a copper dagger. Thank God, today we can do tests with isotopes of oxigen and strontium that can help us to find the regions of provenance of human remains. If it were R1a, this would mean that this haplogroup existed in Yamna Culture (2.700 B.C), which could not be genetically uniform enough to give rise to a compact population of L51/P312 that would later form all of its subclades.

Keep calm your theory about the basques is incresingly interesting.

1.- You should know that when the Romans arrived in Hispania (218 B.C), the NON IE languages were spoken in more than half of the territory of the peninsula- The Basque in Navarre, Alto Aragon (Huesca) and north of the Pyrenees (Aquitaine) and the IBERIAN language in Catalonia, Valencia, Murcia, Albacete, Ciudad Real, Eastern Andalucia. Not only the basques resisted the thrust of the Indoeuropean language, also the aquitans, jacetanos, ilergetes, ilercavones, edetanos, suesetanos etc....
2.- Curiosly in these regions the haplogroup P312 has the highest percentages in the world.
3.- You think your theory about the basque language, could be applied to all these peoples?
4.- All these people are matrilochal societies?
5.- How much do you think the acculturation process lasted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

I thought I would learn some genetics with you, but I have realized that it is a waste of time. So quiet Rms2 you can continue telling your theory to your followers without my interruptions. And continue looking for L51 in Siberia

Your trolling attitude makes impossible not to answer to your stubborn behaviour. Let me understand: if R-L51 is found in Bleckendorf, so it's nearly impossible to link it with Yamna because of a single dagger... but if we find R1a, so it would be the proof of R1a in Yamna... Simply great logics: you will surely be the next winner of the Nobel prize.

Romilius
05-22-2018, 07:02 PM
Just a short emotional outburst... "You don' realize that you are getting into a dead road, for defending the indefensible?". This sentence is just outstanding. Incredible.

He is a troll... I admire you all for your patience... He doesn't even know the basis of aDNA, but he behaves like he's the priest of truth.

alan
05-22-2018, 07:11 PM
The difficulty finding L51 in Yamnaya is not unique. R1a has the same problem but no one is denying its IE and from a Yamnaya clone population.

Reality is y lineages are hard to find in ancient dna until they have been massively expanding for a few generations. There may hav been only a hundred men after 100 years

In a clan structure practicing the endogeny there is basically no way of growing as even a deep large clan will tend to contain roughly equal numbers of males and females in each generation. So non symmetrical exogeny (taking more wives from outside than go in the other direction is almost essential to expanding a male clan society. You will notice that both Yamnaya and beaker only expanded after their immediate ancestors had had a phase of massivee absorption of genes from women in neighbouring farming culietures (CHG into EHG to create Yamnaya then massive absorption of GAC into a Yamnaya-like population to create beaker. That is no coincidence imo.

It seems likely that the type of clan based society that L23 inhabited consistently needed access to wives from another culture in order to undergo a sort of ethnogenesis and expansion phase. That is almost certainly a fact of life for male clan lineage based societies. what limits or fascilitates the growth of a male clan is the number of available women. Women have reproductive limitations that men do not have.

So following on that train of thought, the key factor in P312 expanding is probably written into the autosomal genetics of the classic beaker signal. The factor that took them out of demographic stasis was suddenly getting access to GAC and similar farmer women. As I’ve posted before, the expansion southeast c2800-2600BC by GAC groups into the middle stretches of the rivers between the eastern fringe of Romania and the Dnieper (centred on the Dniester) put them into the zone of Yamnaya and related cultural groups. That is almost certainly where and when the beaker signal formed. I would go as far to say that the ability to obtain wives from outside their own clan was the key factor in the P312 expansion.

The initial century or two of growth of P312 and creation of the beaker autosomal signal during this phase of contact was probably in a pre-beaker guise. The development of a distinct cultural beaker identity and its sudden expansion was probably a result of that intitial demographic expansion allowing them to reach a population level where a self contained cultural identity and fairly consistent autosomal signal was possible.

I honestly am now confident I know the where and when the proto beaker signal developed and that GAC and a Yamnaya clone group were the ingredients. The P312 was clearly from the steppe group and the GAC type genes from the females. The only thing I need to chew over is the exact mechanism and nature of the relationship. The two groups probably neighboured each other for 200 years so it was a process not an event. I have read that it is common in poor farming societies to sell or barter off daughters while clans main expansion limiter is they cannot expand if endogenous because the numbers of males and females born will be similar. So there may have been a symbiotic relationship between streppic clans and farmers in the time/zone of contact phases.

i should also probably say that a 200 year long contact phase with farming groups like GAC may have been important in steppe groups adapting in a way that meant they could expand into a non-steppe environment.

rms2
05-22-2018, 10:58 PM
Game over?, If Bleckendorf was L51, the game as only just begun, because the evidence of its origin in Yamnaya would be reduced to a copper dagger.

You evidently don't know much about Yamnaya. The entire burial package says Yamnaya, not merely the copper dagger.



Thank God, today we can do tests with isotopes of oxigen and strontium that can help us to find the regions of provenance of human remains. If it were R1a, this would mean that this haplogroup existed in Yamna Culture (2.700 B.C), which could not be genetically uniform enough to give rise to a compact population of L51/P312 that would later form all of its subclades.

I fully expect R1a to show up in Yamnaya eventually. Yamnaya was a cultural horizon that covered a vast territory. I really don't understand why you think an R1a result in Yamnaya would be eventful for R1b-L51.



Keep calm your theory about the basques is incresingly interesting.

1.- You should know that when the Romans arrived in Hispania (218 B.C), the NON IE languages were spoken in more than half of the territory of the peninsula- The Basque in Navarre, Alto Aragon (Huesca) and north of the Pyrenees (Aquitaine) and the IBERIAN language in Catalonia, Valencia, Murcia, Albacete, Ciudad Real, Eastern Andalucia. Not only the basques resisted the thrust of the Indoeuropean language, also the aquitans, jacetanos, ilergetes, ilercavones, edetanos, suesetanos etc....
2.- Curiosly in these regions the haplogroup P312 has the highest percentages in the world.
3.- You think your theory about the basque language, could be applied to all these peoples?
4.- All these people are matrilochal societies?
5.- How much do you think the acculturation process lasted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

Yes, R1b-P312 is very common today in areas once occupied by non-IE peoples. But were those non-IE peoples R1b-P312? Evidently not.



I thought I would learn some genetics with you, but I have realized that it is a waste of time. So quiet Rms2 you can continue telling your theory to your followers without my interruptions. And continue looking for L51 in Siberia

I have taught you a lot, because I notice you have shut up about CT. That is something anyway. If by that part of your post you mean you won't post in this thread anymore, then, sorry, but I view that as a positive thing.

Bye!

rms2
05-22-2018, 11:31 PM
So . . . how about those Budzhak guys? Were they the mysterious pre-Beaker culture, or what?

My bet is on them anyway.

23351

dsm
05-22-2018, 11:58 PM
Am still trying to work out if parts of this interaction qualify as a full blown game of pigeon chess. It sure seems like it is !.
Am seeing the chess pieces knocked off the board followed by flapping of wings and squawks of victory (Iberian accent ?).

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pigeon%20chess

Sooner or later it ends but it can be a PITA trying to reach the end point.

D

rms2
05-22-2018, 11:58 PM
And I'm reminded of a joke I've recently come across.



With an itheburgh

Totally irrelevant I know but it makes me smile : )

I must be thick as an iceberg, because I had to Google that one. Got it now, though. Funny.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNyKDI9pn0Q

Romilius
05-23-2018, 06:17 AM
And, yes, if I remember well, but I ask to other expert users here for confirmation, Steppe autosomal is in greater number in male samples than in female samples... If there were Corded Ware women, wouldn't females have been more steppe-like than males?

jdean
05-23-2018, 09:17 AM
I must be thick as an iceberg, because I had to Google that one. Got it now, though. Funny.

Would have helped if I'd misspelled it correctly : )

anglesqueville
05-23-2018, 02:40 PM
Would have helped if I'd misspelled it correctly : )

I had heard this joke yet, by a scottish friend. If you want to experiment an actual flop, try this joke with frenchies.

jdean
05-23-2018, 03:00 PM
I had heard this joke yet, by a scottish friend. If you want to experiment an actual flop, try this joke with frenchies.

AIH the joke failed dismally when I told it to a Dutch friend as did the one about a woman who asked for a double entendre so the barman gave her one : )

I do know a Scottish joke that only works if you can tell it with a strong Scottish accent and then most likely only Scots will get it : )))))

alan
05-23-2018, 05:42 PM
So . . . how about those Budzhak guys? Were they the mysterious pre-Beaker culture, or what?

My bet is on them anyway.

23351
They are in the right general area although there are an awful lot of culture in that zone between the eastern edge of the Carpathians and the Dnieper. I certainly think the L11 harbouring culture was a proper Steppe Yamnaya related group mostly could composed of EHG+CHG before they had a mixing phase with GAC. That is what Davidski reckons - basically a deep steppe Yamnaya type group who moved west towards the farmer interface only after GAC groups replaced CT type farmers. So imo that rules out the subset ot the steppe groups near the Dniester who were interacting very heavily with CT and Balkans farmers in the period 5000-3000BC. I think the steppe element in The beaker signal must have only reached the Dnieper and lands further west quite late (c3000BC give or take a century or so) from a point significantly further away from the interface zone - probably between the Don and Volga. There was just too farmer influence further west - something Rassamakin details at length. So I think it was a relatively new group from the east that entered that Dnieper to Prut type zone around 3000BC and mixed with GAC when it arrived a century or two later. That sounds a lot like Yamnaya to me and of course it’s variants such as Budzak. As I posted recently, the only time and place outside the CW world that the beaker signal could have been created is c2900/2800-2600BC between the Seret/Prut and the Dnieper so I think we are very close to knowing which culture.

alan
05-23-2018, 05:47 PM
AIH the joke failed dismally when I told it to a Dutch friend as did the one about a woman who asked for a double entendre so the barman gave her one : )

I do know a Scottish joke that only works if you can tell it with a strong Scottish accent and then most likely only Scots will get it : )))))
It’s not the one about the Scotsman who was walking about with one of his shoelaces undone. when asked why he said ‘look at the label inside - it says Taiwan’

jdean
05-23-2018, 06:07 PM
It’s not the one about the Scotsman who was walking about with one of his shoelaces undone. when asked why he said ‘look at the label inside - it says Taiwan’

No it involves a pun on meringue, to be honest it's not very good except it tends to leave people with a puzzled expression : )

Nother accent based joke (this one the Midlands), Nelly the Elephant (of Dudley Zoo) whilst visiting the Elephants Grave Yard in Africa was asked 'Have you come here to die?', 'No I came here yester_die' : )

alan
05-23-2018, 06:14 PM
No it involves a pun on meringue, to be honest it's not very good except it tends to leave people with a puzzled expression : )

Nother accent based joke (this one the Midlands), Nelly the Elephant (of Dudley Zoo) whilst visiting the Elephants Grave Yard in Africa was asked 'Have you come here to die?', 'No I came here yester_die' : )
Oh A merange as in ‘am ah rang’ = am I wrong

jdean
05-23-2018, 06:22 PM
Oh A merange as in ‘am ah rang’ = am I wrong

Yep : )

alan
05-23-2018, 06:24 PM
An interesting thing about the GAC-steppe interface is that in the Dnieper,Dniester and Bug systems GAC barely makes it downstream of the forest zone while on the Prut and Seret they settle almost the full length to the lower reaches. I am not sure if that is to do with difference of environment along the Prut and Seret or if it’s to do with timing/climate fluctuation. Or if it relates to the pre-existing groups further downstream on each river.