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Webb
06-09-2018, 11:04 PM
Yet another thought to ponder. FTDNA has the Ancient Origins feature. They use Steppe/Yamnya for the Bronze Age Invaders category. I am 12% Bronze Age Invader, 45% Hunter Gatherer and 43% Farmer. My YDNA is Bronze Age Invader, yet it only represents 12% of my whole makeup. Based on this I am assuming a male initiated movement into areas where they replaced at least every male at the top of the food chain, and some males in the middle. This would explain the discrepancy between the overall genetic input being low, but YDNA markers being high.

rms2
06-09-2018, 11:48 PM
The problem with FTDNA's "Metal Age Invader" thing is that it is just CHG. That's why it is as low as it is. It's not your Yamnaya percentage, which would be higher.

GoldenHind
06-10-2018, 12:26 AM
Maybe a combination of things, like diseases to which westerners had little or no immunity, and perhaps their arrival followed a recent local population decline.

My own theory is that Kurgan Bell Beaker people (the version of Yamnaya that reached Iberia) had mastered using bows from horseback. I realize there is little evidence for that, but it's my personal opinion. Apparently they were also pretty ruthless, but not without a willingness to take on recruits from among the locals, if the recruits were willing to accept the Beaker way of life, its gods, its language, etc.

Whether they were mounted archers or not, I think military superiority is a large part of the answer. Also comparative wealth and power is often a magnet to many women.

My guess is that the situation was somewhat akin to the arrival of the Spanish in central and south America, or of Europeans in north America. I don't think there was an enormous amount of mixing with local women in north America, but there certainly was in central and south America. I remember reading about a DNA study in Columbia which revealed most YDNA was European, while most mtDNA was native.

Saetro
06-10-2018, 02:04 AM
I really like the thought experiments that are coming up - especially using real cases of colonial activity.
The Romans are interesting.
There were neighbours who liked their technology and prestige goods and were keen to trade and to introduce large chunks of culture - all peaceably.
From time to time, elements tried to disengage from Rome, or "R-exit" if you will, and were subject to military persuasion to varying extent.
Rome even paid off or recruited some troublesome elements on the fringes of the Empire.
And there were vast captures of slaves and movement of various groups around the Empire.

I'm sure the Romans probably introduced disease to a population at some stage, but my memory cannot recall it.

So we have many of the mechanisms up for discussion present there.
Looking at what we have been able to tell about the Romans from archaeology alone is roughly the same situation as trying to sort out more ancient entities, only with less data. Particularly without any writings or inscriptions.

Looking into the future.
If first world cultures just walked away now, what would future civilisations find?
Archaeologists would uncover a range of purpose-built structures - some with underground tanks still in place, some with them removed and the land used for other purposes.
About the same time as this removal was taking place (in my country anyway), came a wave of structures containing kitchens, many with golden arches.
Traces of fuel in the underground tanks might lead to the conclusion that some sort of fuel culture was overtaken by something involving food - both with large signs to show their presence.
Did this transition occur peaceably or with violence?
How would we know that the internal combustion engine had become more efficient so people needed to fill up less often?
(We might be able to deduce that small scale operations had been replaced by larger ones in different locations.)
And that the two events were unconnected?

Thus, there is a mixture of candidates for a key factor of success. And one may massively dominate, or it could be a mix.
And not everything is knowable.
But it is certainly worth trying for more on the popularity of the Bell Beaker culture.

(Bell Beaker people were the first such group I encountered in deep history when I was a teenager, long ago.
They got me into this stuff. So I am astounded that we are still asking such questions, but delighted also.)

Generalissimo
06-10-2018, 02:25 AM
Yet another thought to ponder. FTDNA has the Ancient Origins feature. They use Steppe/Yamnya for the Bronze Age Invaders category. I am 12% Bronze Age Invader, 45% Hunter Gatherer and 43% Farmer. My YDNA is Bronze Age Invader, yet it only represents 12% of my whole makeup. Based on this I am assuming a male initiated movement into areas where they replaced at least every male at the top of the food chain, and some males in the middle. This would explain the discrepancy between the overall genetic input being low, but YDNA markers being high.

The Metal Age invader that never was (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-metal-age-invader-that-never-was.html)

The Metal Age invader that never was #2 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-metal-age-invader-that-never-was-2.html)

ffoucart
06-10-2018, 07:53 AM
Regarding autosomal dna, it seems logical to think that 50% can be gained or lost in a single generation thanks to genetic recombination. If the exogamy of the nomads is true,
this could explain why Iberian P312 barely have 15% steppe dna. But this would explain difficulty the high percentages in Germany and the British isles because if they continued practicing exogamy, they would have a lower porcentage ( I don't think they live this practice or that they brought women from the steppes).

I also don't understand how this steppe blood can be maintained in Spain for millenia, especially in the case of the Basques, isolated for centuries with no apparent possibility of receiving new steppe blood to help maintain these percentages.

Un saludo. Por cierto, no es la única posibilidad, hay otra explicación posible


Female exogamy doesn't mean having children exclusively with females of other cultural groups. It means more integrating women of other groups as well.

Central BB's married probably more within their own group than with external groups, but there is a clear trend to mix with other groups through incorporation of women on a large scale. With a direct consequence: Steppe populations incorporated some level of external admixture when they migrated. And they brought women with them, but males did have a huge reproductive advantage.

I have nothing against the proposal by Olalde et al. of a cultural diffusion from Iberia to Central Europe, and a secondary wave of demic diffusion from Central Europe to Western Europe (with dramatic impact in the British Isles, with a 60/90% replacement of the previous population). Central European BBs reached Iberia and their migration was sufficient enough to change the overall genetic profile of later population toa huge extent.

It's clear from your words that you are postulating a very limited presence of Central European BBs in Iberia. Hence your point about Steppe admixture which should disappear through time. That's because you are confusing Cultural Diffusion with Demic Diffusion. If it was only a migration of very limited groups of people, in correlation with trade, it would be coherent with Cultural Diffusion. That is not what we see. DNA is saying otherwise. When Central European BBs appeared somewhere, Y haplogroups changed and autosomal Steppe Admixture appeared. In ALL later samples. This is symptomatic to Demic Diffusion. It means other cultural groups were marginalized as the majority of the population became Central Europe BBs derived.

And as everybody got some Steppe admixture, why should it drop?

By the way, you can't lose 50% of admixture in one generation, as recombination means more fragmentation of your genome at each generation. At some point, the general population got the same proportions through homogenization and drift. Hence specific/ethnic signatures. What I mean is: all iberians got a similar level of Steppe Admixture fragemented in all their genomes (as everyone else), so you got the same level from your father and your mother.

Basques were not totally isolated, nor does their language is specifically old. That's why they have a high level of R1b DF27 and that 60/70 % of words in Basque language are in fact of IE origin. Their history is unclear, also because they appeared relatively recently in History.

dsm
06-10-2018, 07:59 AM
You know that the basques live north and south of the Pyrenees, and the vast majority speak French and Spanish. Also if you speak Spanish you can read and understand Portuguese and Italian (to speak it is more complicated). However English and German are more difficult to us, and translators often give us meaningless sentences in Spanish or we just don't understand the intention of what is written. That's why sometimes phrases or answers may not make sense to you. That's why I apologized in my firt post. Spain received 80 million tourists last year and we always appreciate the efforts of foreigners to express themselves in Spanish. Few people try it in Basque, which is too much harder.

I see that you are a reasonable person, possibly we will not agree but surely we will respect each other. It's a pity that a lot of interesting information (Archaelogical excavations, Doctoral Theses) is not translated into English and also I don't have time to translate it. We will try to share it with you.

Un saludo. Gracias-Eskerrik asko

Was in Bilbao and San Sebastian last year. Wanted to visit the Basque country on my way to Portugal. Had been and stayed in Catalonia when quite young - loved it.

This is my joke from San Sebastian. How do you pick an obvious tourist in San Sebastian?. Easy, anyone wearing a brand new Boinas Elósegui Basque beret.

So the funny side of this was I saw no one else in Bilbao or San Sebatian wearing the traditional beret bar me, in a mirror. When I asked our local friends why, they told me that only older men tend to wear them, and typically out of the main towns (countryside and villges) or during festivals :)

Cheers DougM

Tristemente no tengo herencia vasca. Los admiro mucho.

dsm
06-10-2018, 08:25 AM
Yet another thought to ponder. FTDNA has the Ancient Origins feature. They use Steppe/Yamnya for the Bronze Age Invaders category. I am 12% Bronze Age Invader, 45% Hunter Gatherer and 43% Farmer. My YDNA is Bronze Age Invader, yet it only represents 12% of my whole makeup. Based on this I am assuming a male initiated movement into areas where they replaced at least every male at the top of the food chain, and some males in the middle. This would explain the discrepancy between the overall genetic input being low, but YDNA markers being high.

That matches my own data from FTDNA ancient origins. I had wondered how many of us with British origins might have near identical readings.

D

etrusco
06-10-2018, 08:56 AM
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-prince-and-his-twenty-wives-garcia.html?m=0

Talking of Iberia ..... looks interesting.

GASKA
06-10-2018, 10:12 AM
Female exogamy doesn't mean having children exclusively with females of other cultural groups. It means more integrating women of other groups as well.

Central BB's married probably more within their own group than with external groups, but there is a clear trend to mix with other groups through incorporation of women on a large scale. With a direct consequence: Steppe populations incorporated some level of external admixture when they migrated. And they brought women with them, but males did have a huge reproductive advantage.

I have nothing against the proposal by Olalde et al. of a cultural diffusion from Iberia to Central Europe, and a secondary wave of demic diffusion from Central Europe to Western Europe (with dramatic impact in the British Isles, with a 60/90% replacement of the previous population). Central European BBs reached Iberia and their migration was sufficient enough to change the overall genetic profile of later population toa huge extent.

It's clear from your words that you are postulating a very limited presence of Central European BBs in Iberia. Hence your point about Steppe admixture which should disappear through time. That's because you are confusing Cultural Diffusion with Demic Diffusion. If it was only a migration of very limited groups of people, in correlation with trade, it would be coherent with Cultural Diffusion. That is not what we see. DNA is saying otherwise. When Central European BBs appeared somewhere, Y haplogroups changed and autosomal Steppe Admixture appeared. In ALL later samples. This is symptomatic to Demic Diffusion. It means other cultural groups were marginalized as the majority of the population became Central Europe BBs derived.

And as everybody got some Steppe admixture, why should it drop?

By the way, you can't lose 50% of admixture in one generation, as recombination means more fragmentation of your genome at each generation. At some point, the general population got the same proportions through homogenization and drift. Hence specific/ethnic signatures. What I mean is: all iberians got a similar level of Steppe Admixture fragemented in all their genomes (as everyone else), so you got the same level from your father and your mother.

Basques were not totally isolated, nor does their language is specifically old. That's why they have a high level of R1b DF27 and that 60/70 % of words in Basque language are in fact of IE origin. Their history is unclear, also because they appeared relatively recently in History.

Regarding the Basques, don't worry, it's the easiest thing to explain in this story. Small family settlements in the mountains, pacts with the Romans (we were not exactly the bravest compared to the Celtiberians, astures, cántabros, ...), fierce resistence against Vandals, Goths, moors, and we are already in the Monarquia Hispánica, with very strict racial laws. acoording to which,the Basques, Astures, Cantabros.. enjoyed the Universal Nobility for having kept their race intact (they never had to undergo cleaning tests of blood as it happened with the rest of the population). Result 2.000 years later- 90% R1b (80%Df27). I agree with you, that despite the Neolithic origin, the language might not be that old, and of course much of the vocabulary have Indoeuropean, Spanish or French origin.

When I have a little time, I'll try to explain how we see the rest of the story

anglesqueville
06-10-2018, 10:18 AM
GASKA: "When I have a little time, I'll try to explain how we see the rest of the story".
Would you mind to tell us who is this "we"? Another question: do you ( or does this "we") have some connexion ( or intellectual relatedness) with Maju ( and Forwhattheywere....)?

GASKA
06-10-2018, 10:24 AM
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-prince-and-his-twenty-wives-garcia.html?m=0

Talking of Iberia ..... looks interesting.

As you have seen, I have only tried to explain that the cultures of Southern Europe were demographically, culturally, materially, commercially and technologically powerful enogh to make to make invasions impossible in these regions. Our explanation is different and we will share it with you.

Adoro Monica Bellucci, salutami da me si la trovi. Un saludo

Romilius
06-10-2018, 10:39 AM
Regarding the Basques, don't worry, it's the easiest thing to explain in this story. Small family settlements in the mountains, pacts with the Romans (we were not exactly the bravest compared to the Celtiberians, astures, cántabros, ...), fierce resistence against Vandals, Goths, moors, and we are already in the Monarquia Hispánica, with very strict racial laws. acoording to which,the Basques, Astures, Cantabros.. enjoyed the Universal Nobility for having kept their race intact (they never had to undergo cleaning tests of blood as it happened with the rest of the population). Result 2.000 years later- 90% R1b (80%Df27). I agree with you, that despite the Neolithic origin, the language might not be that old, and of course much of the vocabulary have Indoeuropean, Spanish or French origin.

When I have a little time, I'll try to explain how we see the rest of the story

With the little difference that Basques did nothing for the Reconquista, whereas the North-West regions did a lot and began the process.

The Universal Hidalguia permitted Basques to be privileged against other Iberians... and also to avoid MIlitary service, whereas the other Iberians who have been granted the Hidalguia Universal must do military service.

Really a history to be proud of that of the Basques... To do nothing and to pretend to be the best and the victims...

GASKA
06-10-2018, 10:56 AM
With the little difference that Basques did nothing for the Reconquista, whereas the North-West regions did a lot and began the process.

The Universal Hidalguia permitted Basques to be privileged against other Iberians... and also to avoid MIlitary service, whereas the other Iberians who have been granted the Hidalguia Universal must do military service.

Really a history to be proud of that of the Basques... To do nothing and to pretend to be the best and the victims...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blas_de_Lezo

rms2
06-10-2018, 11:18 AM
When I ordered my first y-dna test from FTDNA in March of 2006, which was a 37-marker STR test, the Basques were all the rage, because the belief that R1b spent the LGM in a Franco-Cantabrian refuge was the consensus back then, and because of the old 19th century (and older) belief that the Basques were some sort of Paleolithic relic population.

Since then, knowledge has increased, helped along by ancient dna testing, and neither of those beliefs is tenable any longer.

Yet here we are getting a retro dose of how important the Basques are from a Basque guy, who seems to be saying, despite the findings of Olalde et al, that the Bell Beaker culture, including the Kurgan elements of it, right down to horse domestication and riding, originated in Iberia. He doesn't go quite so far as to say R1b originated in Iberia, but he comes close, especially for R1b-P312.

Pardon me if I find this ludicrous. This thread was really intended to be a discussion of the oldest steppe Bell Beakers (hence the title). We shouldn't have to go back and kill the Franco-Cantabrian zombie once again and for the millionth time.

But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica, a time to argue on behalf of ethnic and national pride points of view that really don't make any sense, whether those points of view stem from the Pyrenees or the even loftier Caucasus range.

Romilius
06-10-2018, 11:19 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blas_de_Lezo

And so? One person can establish the history of an entire people? Ridiculous...

See the blog https://hidalgosenlahistoria.blogspot.com
Despite being in majority hidalgos, the Basques are only a tiny minority among the hidalgos who made history.

Romilius
06-10-2018, 11:25 AM
When I ordered my first y-dna test from FTDNA in March of 2006, which was a 37-marker STR test, the Basques were all the rage, because the belief that R1b spent the LGM in a Franco-Cantabrian refuge was the consensus back then, and because of the old 19th century (and older) belief that the Basques were some sort of Paleolithic relic population.

Since then, knowledge has increased, helped along by ancient dna testing, and neither of those beliefs is tenable any longer.

Yet here we are getting a retro dose of how important the Basques are from a Basque guy, who seems to be saying, despite the findings of Olalde et al, that the Bell Beaker culture, including the Kurgan elements of it, right down to horse domestication and riding, originated in Iberia. He doesn't go quite so far as to say R1b originated in Iberia, but he comes close, especially for R1b-P312.

Pardon me if I find this ludicrous. This thread was really intended to be a discussion of the oldest steppe Bell Beakers (hence the title). We shouldn't have to go back and kill the Franco-Cantabrian zombie once again and for the millionth time.

But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica, a time to argue on behalf of ethnic and national pride points of view that really don't make any sense, whether those points of view stem from the Pyrenees or the even loftier Caucasus range.

You are right: I see that it's difficult to deal with the changement of self-history, particularly when there are political reasons underground.

But, I invite our Basque guy to look at me: Italians aren't nordic nor germanic landlords nor some sort of supermen... and I'm not tearing my skin or trying everything to show the contrary (with light proofs) because I can't deal with the reality. World goes on with or without Basques and with or without Italians... even if without Italians the world would be a little bit different...

And, of course, every people has its own ehtnogenesis... why to be so upset if a people has Y-DNA from one people and MT-DNA + language from another?

What would Cossacks do? One hypothesis about their origins are that the first population was created by serfs who fled their landlords... And yet now we are all admiring Cossacks for their martial culture and their brave hearts... I personally admire them because they made history in their country.

etrusco
06-10-2018, 12:17 PM
"But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica"

Yes you may have a point but let me tell you this....I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise I cannot explain myself why every time a "southern european" just try to raise questions about the steppe theory rarely he's responded without condescending; that's why I sometimes think that "steppist" are just ethno-nationalist that are just lucky enough to be on the "right side" ( so far) of scientific research.
Maybe (if) the steppe theory one day will be debunked we'll see what the reaction will be on their part....

What I want to say is that be conscious or not of it everyone of us have an ethno-nationalistic bias...like it or not.... the most important thing is to not let interact with scientific debate.

rms2
06-10-2018, 12:51 PM
"But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica"

Yes you may have a point but let me tell you this....I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise I cannot explain myself why every time a "southern european" just try to raise questions about the steppe theory rarely he's responded without condescending; that's why I sometimes think that "steppist" are just ethno-nationalist that are just lucky enough to be on the "right side" ( so far) of scientific research . . .


Again with the Nazi accusation (thinly veiled by the term "Nordicist"). It's a base insult without any foundation. Many of the so-called "steppists" are southern European themselves, and my own wife is of Jewish ethnic (and genetic) background. So you can drop that.

None of my recent ancestors (within the last 400 years or so) came from any place that is in the running for Indo-European Urheimat or for LGM Refuge. Therefore the claim that I and others like me are motivated by ethno-nationalism is bogus on its face.

As for the Nordicist bullshit, most of us know enough about the Yamnaya results not to be subject to that sort of error. Yamnaya people weren't Nordics. They tended to be swarthy, much swarthier than most of us today.

BTW, I don't think I have been condescending toward southern Europeans who "just try to raise questions about the steppe theory". I think what you are seeing from me in threads like this one is irritation with having to go back and rehash old arguments with Basque and south-of-the-Caucasus partisans, arguments they lost long ago.

Just out of curiosity, etrusco, what is your y-dna haplogroup? Do you know?

jdean
06-10-2018, 12:56 PM
"But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica"

Yes you may have a point but let me tell you this....I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise I cannot explain myself why every time a "southern european" just try to raise questions about the steppe theory rarely he's responded without condescending; that's why I sometimes think that "steppist" are just ethno-nationalist that are just lucky enough to be on the "right side" ( so far) of scientific research.
Maybe (if) the steppe theory one day will be debunked we'll see what the reaction will be on their part....

What I want to say is that be conscious or not of it everyone of us have an ethno-nationalistic bias...like it or not.... the most important thing is to not let interact with scientific debate.

This argument has been going on for a long time before aDNA came along to provide answers.

As Rich said


We shouldn't have to go back and kill the Franco-Cantabrian zombie once again and for the millionth time.

On a related subject


The search for the location of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland has generated dozens of candidates, many advanced by scholars who were natives of the regions championed, making the homeland enterprise seem almost comically nationalist

R.Rocca
06-10-2018, 01:01 PM
Again with the Nazi accusation (thinly veiled by the term "Nordicist"). It's a base insult without any foundation. Many of the so-called "steppists" are southern European themselves, and my own wife is of Jewish ethnic (and genetic) background. So you can drop that.

None of my recent ancestors (within the last 400 years or so) came from any place that is in the running for Indo-European Urheimat or for LGM Refuge. Therefore the claim that I and others like me are motivated by ethno-nationalism is bogus on its face.

As for the Nordicist bullshit, most of us know enough about the Yamnaya results not to be subject to that sort of error. Yamnaya people weren't Nordics. They tended to be swarthy, much swarthier than most of us today.

Just out of curiosity, etrusco, what is your y-dna haplogroup? Do you know?

I will also add that the Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Southern European population. So, to call anyone who supports the steppe theory a "Nordicist" is laughable.

Romilius
06-10-2018, 01:02 PM
And of course: also Yamnayans, for example, had mothers who have spoken different languages than fathers...

anglesqueville
06-10-2018, 01:03 PM
Etrusco: "I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise..."

Without willing to offend anyone, I think that this damned "nordicism" is basically an obsession of south europeans. Poor friends, these last years they have lost all their beautiful certitudes. The genetic imprint of the roman empire is peanuts, Europe has not been repopulated by R1b originated in Iberia, not even Britain, least of all Britain, and so on. In one sentence, southern Europe is not a craddle of any sort, not at all a starting line, only a peripheric and final area. By the way I don't seem to recall that anybody never used a word like "southernism", or something like that. Yet such a word would have been justified, in many contexts. Here in France I know some real "nordicists". Believe me, on our forum not a week would pass before their banishment. For those guys the Steppes ... are the far South! "Nordicist"? I'm laughing, you really can't imagine what a real "nordicist" is.

etrusco
06-10-2018, 01:06 PM
Again with the Nazi accusation (thinly veiled by the term "Nordicist"). It's a base insult without any foundation. Many of the so-called "steppists" are southern European themselves, and my own wife is of Jewish ethnic (and genetic) background. So you can drop that.

None of my recent ancestors (within the last 400 years or so) came from any place that is in the running for Indo-European Urheimat or for LGM Refuge. Therefore the claim that I and others like me are motivated by ethno-nationalism is bogus on its face.

As for the Nordicist bullshit, most of us know enough about the Yamnaya results not to be subject to that sort of error. Yamnaya people weren't Nordics. They tended to be swarthy, much swarthier than most of us today.

Just out of curiosity, etrusco, what is your y-dna haplogroup? Do you know?

You got me wrong because I did'n type an important word: I said steppist like I was referring to all of them. I should have written "some". And I did not mean they are nazi ( I am the least possible persons to accuse steppist to be nazi because I am not part of the "liberal multicultural politically correct mindset".....I'm a right wing person!. And I'm not accusing you!
By the way you really read what I wrote!!
As for my YDNA Haplo i do not know....but I believe my identity is based on culture not genes....I could have a east asian YDNA for all that matter I would still feel myself italian....
but probably being a lombard I will turn out to be R1b U-152/S28.....Alpine Celt!

rms2
06-10-2018, 01:11 PM
. . .
but probably being a lombard I will turn out to be R1b U-152/S28.....Alpine Celt!

Okay. Well, on a more pleasant note, you should have your y-dna tested. It's worth every penny you spend on it and lots of fun.

jdean
06-10-2018, 01:26 PM
Getting back to the conversation at hand Ric Hern made an intresting post (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/of-horses-and-men.html?showComment=1528631417467#c65652749082126 9473) over at Eurogenes.


Just a reminder why Steppe people could have retained their original Steppe Language while moving into Central Europe.

European Neolithic societies showed early warning signals of population collapse (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/35/9751)

Above this he also made a similar observation to me regarding wives adopting their husbands language.


I speak Afrikaans and my Wife was English speaking. We migrated to an area where people speak mostly Afrikaans. My wife now speaks a more proper version of Afrikaans than most actual Afrikaans Born people speak. People don't even know that she is actually English....

My post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14218-The-first-horse-herders-and-the-impact-of-early-Bronze-Age-steppe-expansions-into-Asi&p=392039&viewfull=1#post392039)

etrusco
06-10-2018, 01:33 PM
I will also add that the Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Southern European population. So, to call anyone who supports the steppe theory a "Nordicist" is laughable.

I explained that I did not mean "anyone".....but I like your post....what is your take of the blonde hair and light skin of northern europeans ( to sum up the corded ware region).....if samara is the source population why their deep northern look....because you seem to suggest the northern look came from the farmers.....Am I missing something?

rms2
06-10-2018, 01:33 PM
I'm neither a Nordicist nor a Nazi nor an ethno-nationalist. I'm a Christian (not the best example, but whatever) who believes all human beings are related, which can be easily demonstrated mathematically. I'm in this hobby for fun, which mostly comes from learning about my ancestors. My main interest is in genetic genealogy, i.e., finding out about my ancestors in genealogical time, but that tends to move somewhat slowly. So, while I wait for new developments on the genealogical front, I busy myself with learning about my prehistoric and long ago historic ancestors, not all of whom were steppe pastoralists. Many of them were non-IE hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers.

etrusco
06-10-2018, 01:44 PM
@all

as gaska and others whom I do not recall have pointed out be careful not to react immediately when non-native english speakers write a post. When you feel something can be controversial just think and maybe ask if something has been typed rightly because a word missing can make a big difference. I did not mean to stir up such a mess.....I was only pointing out of the bias that everyone of us can have and which we can be unaware of....

Webb
06-10-2018, 01:53 PM
Something else I pointed out for several years, more than several, really is the founder effect of M153 is really not too old in the big scheme of things. Alex and Ian have the M153 block as a median age of 1200B.C. Several blocks north is Z214 which has a median age of 1800B.C. It’s old but not so very old.

rms2
06-10-2018, 01:58 PM
. . . I was only pointing out of the bias that everyone of us can have and which we can be unaware of....

I agree that no one is entirely objective. If I have a bias, it has nothing to do with Nordicism or racism or ethno-nationalism. But I will admit I find steppe pastoralist Proto-Indo-Europeans more interesting and fun than the rest of their contemporaries. So, there's my bias. It's not sufficient to fool me into thinking Yamnayans were perfect, square-jawed, noble heroes. They were fallible people like everyone else. I just find their culture and the process of the Indo-Europeanization of Europe interesting. It is cool to think that my y-dna ancestors may have been among them. So, there you go: that's it.

Now, thanks to Olalde et al, I am almost certain my y-dna ancestors were among the Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

Since I am aware of my bias, I think I am alert to it, as well, and able to see past it and look at the evidence. I have already disabused myself of a couple of cherished ideas that did not jive with the evidence. I know I can do it again, should that become necessary.

R.Rocca
06-10-2018, 02:27 PM
I explained that I did not mean "anyone".....but I like your post....what is your take of the blonde hair and light skin of northern europeans ( to sum up the corded ware region).....if samara is the source population why their deep northern look....because you seem to suggest the northern look came from the farmers.....Am I missing something?

As with all of this, we cannot talk in absolutes. If Yamnaya mixed with populations like GAC, TRB etc. in Central Europe, then that could explain some of it. Remember that there was a resurgence in WHG during the Middle Neolithic throughout Europe.

rms2
06-10-2018, 02:29 PM
Not to beat etrusco to death over no big deal, but speaking of Nordicism, remember when, not too many days ago, we discussed Alexei Butin's post over at Molgen from back in January?



« Ответ #1550 : 27 Январь 2018, 19:48:18 »
Здравствуйте. Сегодня прошла XIV самарская археологическая конференция. Были заслушены следующие доклады.
Хохлов А.А. Предварительные результаты антрополого-генетических исследований материалов Волго-Уралья периода неолита-ранней бронзы международной группой ученых.

В своем докладе Хохлов А.А. вводил в научный оборот пока неопубликованные данные нового энеолитического могильника Екатириновский мыс, который сочетает в себе, как мариупольские так и хвалынские черты, и относится к 4 четверти V тыс. до н.э. Все проанализированные образцы имели уралоидный антропологический тип, игрек хромосома всех образцов принадлежала к гаплогруппе R1b1a2 (R - P 312/ S 116), и гаплогруппе R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Мито к гаплогруппам U2, U4, U5. В Хвалынских могильниках (1 половина IV тыс. до н.э.) антропологический материал отличается бОльшим разнообразием. Кроме уралоидного субстрата фиксируется европеодный широколицый и южноевропеоидные варианты. К игрек гаплогруппам добавляются R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 к мито T2a1b, H2a1.

Translation:

Hello. Today, the XIV Samara Archeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard. Khokhlov AA Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural region of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists. In his report, AA Khokhlov introduced into scientific circulation until the unpublished data of the new Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both the Mariupol and Khvalyn features, and refers to the fourth quarter of the V millennium BC.

All samples analyzed had a uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In the Khvalyn burial grounds (1 half of the 4th millennium BC), the anthropological material differs in a greater variety. In addition to the uraloid substratum, European wide-faced and southern-European variants are recorded. To the game haplogroup R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to mito T2a1b, H2a1.


None of us shied away from the idea that these alleged R1b-P312 Khvalynsk skeletons were of the Uraloid/Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) anthropological type (and hardly Nordic).

GASKA
06-10-2018, 04:05 PM
And so? One person can establish the history of an entire people? Ridiculous...

See the blog https://hidalgosenlahistoria.blogspot.com
Despite being in majority hidalgos, the Basques are only a tiny minority among the hidalgos who made history.

I have not brought the subject, and I see that you are still very concerned with the issue of the Basques, I send you two other examples, but I could send you thousands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C3%ADn_de_Bertendona

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3bal_de_O%C3%B1ate

Regarding the Iberians for now we are going to settle for seeing Nadal winning for the eleventh time Roland Garros, then we will continue to claim what we deem appropiate.

ffoucart
06-10-2018, 04:48 PM
That matches my own data from FTDNA ancient origins. I had wondered how many of us with British origins might have near identical readings.

D
As the General implied, FTDNA "Metal Invaders" is bu...it.

Kopfjäger
06-10-2018, 04:53 PM
Not to beat etrusco to death over no big deal, but speaking of Nordicism, remember when, not too many days ago, we discussed Alexei Butin's post over at Molgen from back in January?



None of us shied away from the idea that these alleged R1b-P312 Khvalynsk skeletons were of the Uraloid/Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) anthropological type (and hardly Nordic).

It's because we're proud of our ancestors, no matter what they looked like. We just want the truth!

rms2
06-10-2018, 05:00 PM
It's because we're proud of our ancestors, no matter what they looked like. We just want the truth!

Personally, I think the Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) thing is kind of cool, maybe because it seems somewhat exotic.

jdean
06-10-2018, 05:06 PM
It's because we're proud of our ancestors, no matter what they looked like. We just want the truth!

I've a great grandfather that I think would be a challenge for anybody to be proud of. However if he hadn't jumped on a train abandoning his wife and daughter (my grandmother) then I'd never have been, of course also if it hadn't been for my great grandmother having the tenacity to track him down my grandmother and father wouldn't have met.

MitchellSince1893
06-10-2018, 05:11 PM
I will also add that the Yamnaya were darker skinned than any modern Southern European population. So, to call anyone who supports the steppe theory a "Nordicist" is laughable.



I can hear it now. The new angle of the defenders of Western European Nativism will be..."Before those 'swarthy' Yamnaya folks showed up, All of Europe was blonde haired and blue eyed." :D

GASKA
06-10-2018, 05:43 PM
If my best argument to show that BB culture originated in Iberia was that the Central Europeans ate a lot of fish, or that the archaelogical sites are difficult to date, I would have serious doubts that my theory is true.

In the same way if I had to resort to my ethnic pride or a romantic vision of Prehistory to do it, I would be wasting my time.

So if none of you find BB cermaics in Germany (Hungary....) before 2.750 B.C we will continue thinking that the culture originated in Portugal. If you find them, we will not hesitate to rectify our opinion.

That means that the oldest steppe BB has to be later 2.500 BC, and that of course it is not the man buried in Bleckendorf, with ceramic type CW.

Regarding the Mediterranean diet, in Spain you can eat the best fish and seafood in the world, no wonder our ancestors ate it in abundance. I suppose if the nomads saw a gooseneck barnacle they would ran.

etrusco
06-10-2018, 05:47 PM
Like GASKA I prefer Monica Bellucci ( probably an EEF+WHG ). ;)

etrusco
06-10-2018, 05:48 PM
@mitchellsince1983

Like GASKA I prefer Monica Bellucci ( probably an EEF+WHG ). ;)

etrusco
06-10-2018, 06:19 PM
Etrusco: "I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise..."

Without willing to offend anyone, I think that this damned "nordicism" is basically an obsession of south europeans. Poor friends, these last years they have lost all their beautiful certitudes. The genetic imprint of the roman empire is peanuts, Europe has not been repopulated by R1b originated in Iberia, not even Britain, least of all Britain, and so on. In one sentence, southern Europe is not a craddle of any sort, not at all a starting line, only a peripheric and final area. By the way I don't seem to recall that anybody never used a word like "southernism", or something like that. Yet such a word would have been justified, in many contexts. Here in France I know some real "nordicists". Believe me, on our forum not a week would pass before their banishment. For those guys the Steppes ... are the far South! "Nordicist"? I'm laughing, you really can't imagine what a real "nordicist" is.

Correct me but I do not think you really mean it...cause I always appreciate your posts..anyway I cannot resist to reply hoping avoiding any bitterness.....

southern europe peripherical in world history???? ( Italy-Greece- Spain!!!)

if southern europe ( and mediterranean world in general) is peripherical I wonder who can claim to be "downtown".

We are talking about countries that had the biggest impact in world history for millennia ( Rome-Christianity- legal systems- medieval city states-humanism-renaissance- discovery of america-scientific revolution with Galileo Galilei). And I could go on and on and on....
The language we are using has more than 60% of vocabulary made up of latin ( with greek even more). Not to mention french spanish portoguese romanian.
Not to mention the diffusion of the latin alphabet....70% of mankind uses it ( as first or second choice language like India)

Italy alone has more than 50% of world cultural heritage......arts, sculptures paintings, literature,
modern inventions like battery-telephone ( meucci) radio ( marconi)- nuclear bomb ( with Enrico Fermi)-

Peripherical ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????

MikeWhalen
06-10-2018, 06:31 PM
anglesqueville, you seemed to have hit a very sore point ^
:)

Mike

MitchellSince1893
06-10-2018, 06:32 PM
If my best argument to show that BB culture originated in Iberia was that the Central Europeans ate a lot of fish, or that the archaelogical sites are difficult to date, I would have serious doubts that my theory is true.

In the same way if I had to resort to my ethnic pride or a romantic vision of Prehistory to do it, I would be wasting my time.

So if none of you find BB cermaics in Germany (Hungary....) before 2.750 B.C we will continue thinking that the culture originated in Portugal. If you find them, we will not hesitate to rectify our opinion.

That means that the oldest steppe BB has to be later 2.500 BC, and that of course it is not the man buried in Bleckendorf, with ceramic type CW.

Regarding the Mediterranean diet, in Spain you can eat the best fish and seafood in the world, no wonder our ancestors ate it in abundance. I suppose if the nomads saw a gooseneck barnacle they would ran.

Ok lets for argument sake say some/most Bell Beaker objects originated in Iberia. What does that have to do with men with Steppe ancestry buried in Central Europe with Bell Beaker objects in their graves? We've already established that there was a far flung trade network across Europe at this time.

I think we sometimes confuse the origin of the grave objects with where the people came from. If you found a golf club in a grave, it doesn't mean he's from St Andrews Scotland. It probably means he enjoyed playing Golf.

Italian-American Frank Sinatra was buried with a bottle of Jack Daniels. That doesn't means he was from Tennessee.
Jamaican Bob Marley was buried with an American made Gibson Les Paul guitar
American Beverly Hills socialite Sandra West was buried in her Ferrari 330 GT, but she wasn't Italian.

Eterne
06-10-2018, 06:33 PM
At a tangent (but I feel like it's not a big thing because it's quite a tangential thread at this point) and in the spirit of being a generally Beakerish thread, connected to the issues of whether Bell Beaker culture spread as a culture, not a migration, I was having a read of this 2017 essay by David Anthony again, and it's quite interesting to me that he stands by the consensus for local evolution of the material culture of the Corded Ware as arising from northern European Neolithic predecessors (rather than re-evaluating this in light of genetic evidence of shift):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315854803_2_Archaeology_and_Language_Why_Archaeolo gists_Care_about_the_Indo-European_Problem_Essays_in_Memory_of_Bernard_Waile s

"Furholt (2014) argued convincingly that many of the material traits that define the Corded Ware culture originated in different places and were gradually networked together, so that the homogeneous A phase began after the earliest phase, which exhibited more variety.

This suggested to him that the Corded Ware culture evolved from diverse sources locally in northern Europe. The oldest radiocarbon dates from Corded Ware sites occur in southern Poland (upper Vistula) and north-central Poland (Kujavia), and this was seen as the region where the early networking of amphorae styles from Globular Amphorae and axe types from Scandinavia began.

The genetic evidence shows a somewhat different picture: the Corded Ware people were largely immigrants whose ancestors came from the steppes (probably immediately from eastern Hungary), but they quickly adopted local material traits in amphorae and axe types that obscured their foreign origins.

...

The connection between the Yamnaya migration that flowed from the steppes into the Danube valley beginning about 3000–2800 BCE and the Corded Ware culture north of the Carpathians was archaeologically obscured by the rapid evolution among the Corded Ware people of a new material culture.

Corded Ware material culture emerged out of an experience of cultural opposition between the immigrant pastoralists and the indigenous Globular Amphorae culture, tempered by centuries of continuing co-residence in the same landscape (Machnik 1999; Czebreszuk and Szmyt 2011). The migrants retained cultural preconceptions (the importance of individual distinction and warfare), economic patterns (mobile pastoralism), and genetic traits typical of the steppe Yamnaya culture as they moved into southern Poland, but they adopted new material types and variant versions of their ancestral funeral rituals, creating a set of customs that were neither simple copies of local ideas nor simple imports of Yamnaya behaviors. Instead they created a new hybrid material culture."

(In a sense, in very simple terms, it's an argument again for a distinction between material culture and migration, but rather than that material culture *spreading* without migration, as in the idea suggested by "Pots Not People", it's more that continuity and adoption of material culture by migrant populations disguised depth of migration.)

There seems like a bit of a narrative that seems to have circulated somewhat in the population genetic focused sphere that Corded Ware and Bell Beaker as representing quite different phenomena in terms of cultural interactions with Neolithic cultures, with Corded Ware being a clearly "off the steppe" material culture and Bell Beaker as integrating with material cultural traditions linked to Iberia/Hungary Neolithic groups, and networking them together.

But it seems like Anthony's suggestions above are more doubtful of that distinction, and that both represent quite fusional cultures that adopted weapons, pottery and material productive techniques from the people they encountered, as well as retaining elements of material culture. If that's so, also likely true of culture of ideas as well (but probably not language!)...

alexfritz
06-10-2018, 06:49 PM
my motto is always credit where credit is due, and what emerged from the steppe was an immense contribution and as long as nothing spills into supremacy -no worries; but as someone with south euro ancestry i am very much happy also with the insights of continuity between south europe and the neolithic, the way i see it everyone loves stone henge and ötzi so thats a good thing to have if i may say so myself;

MitchellSince1893
06-10-2018, 07:08 PM
my motto is always credit where credit is due, and what emerged from the steppe was an immense contribution and as long as nothing spills into supremacy -no worries; but as someone with south euro ancestry i am very much happy also with the insights of continuity between south europe and the neolithic, the way i see it everyone loves stone henge and ötzi so thats a good thing to have if i may say so myself;

If the Steppe was so great/superior then why did they leave? :)

No offense to the Steppe, but if that's where my paternal line originated, I take no pride in it. In fact, it doesn't stir up any emotional response...positive or negative....it's endless fields of grass lands! Kinda hard to excited about that. No plans to run out and buy a Ukrainian/Russian/Kazakhstan flag. It is what it is. It's just where the evidence led. End of story.

MitchellSince1893
06-10-2018, 07:16 PM
@mitchellsince1983

Like GASKA I prefer Monica Bellucci ( probably an EEF+WHG ). ;)

I ended up with a Blonde with green eyes...must have been my paternal Yamnaya ancestry that attracted me to the "exotic" GAC foreign look. No complaints. ;)

etrusco
06-10-2018, 07:25 PM
I ended up with a Blonde with green eyes...must have been my paternal Yamnaya ancestry that attracted me to the "exotic" foreign look. No complaints. ;)

Good choice anyway........

I wonder ( it is just a joke BTW) if the pro-russian attitude of Donald Trump is just an attraction of the ancient homeland.....may be he's following the topic!!!

GASKA
06-10-2018, 07:34 PM
Ok lets for argument sake say some/most Bell Beaker objects originated in Iberia. What does that have to do with men with Steppe ancestry buried in Central Europe with Bell Beaker objects in their graves? We've already established that there was a far flung trade network across Europe at this time.

I think we sometimes confuse the origin of the grave objects with where the people came from. If you found a golf club in a grave, it doesn't mean he's from St Andrews Scotland. It probably means enjoyed playing Golf.

Italian-American Frank Sinatra was buried with a bottle of Jack Daniels. That doesn't means he was from Tennessee.
Jamaican Bob Marley was buried with an American made Gibson Les Paul guitar
American Beverly Hills socialite Sandra West was buried in her Ferrari 330 GT, but she wasn't Italian.

We could have started from there and we would all agree. We have said many times that the only aspect of a culture that needs migrations is language, the rest can be explained by trade for example. In adittion, this means that the entry of P312 in Iberia is not related to the BB culture because it already existed here previously. This means only, that the explanation of what happened in the British islands is totally different from what happened in Iberia. You have it clear, we have to look for explanations.

In the tomb of Enrique IV of Castile (1.474), a rhinoceros horn was found, not because he was african, but because he was impotent, and the horn was supposed to be an aphrodisiac.

jdean
06-10-2018, 07:51 PM
this means that the entry of P312 in Iberia is not related to the BB culture because it already existed here previously.

I think you're really going to struggle with that one : )

Oh and what about horses, I'd say they would have had a pretty large cultural impact ?

GASKA
06-10-2018, 08:08 PM
I think you're really going to struggle with that one : )

Oh and what about horses, I'd say they would have had a pretty large cultural impact ?

Don't worry, I realized that if the Catholic Kings had learned that the Basques have swarthy uraloid ancestors, they would have taken away the Universal Nobility and the Holy Inquisition would have burned us at the stake. Thank God the genetics has arrived late.

R.Rocca
06-10-2018, 08:11 PM
The entire BB "package" was Known and used in Iberia during Pre-BB chalcolithic. I send you an old paper (Spanish) about wrisguards. As you can see, they have been found in Pre-BB deposists. https://gredos.usal.es/jspui/bitstream/10366/71196/1/Brazalete_de_arquero_precampaniforme_pro.pdf.


Your mention of the wrist guard jarred my memory. There were also two wrist guards found in the pre-Bell Beaker El Portalon site:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/El_Portalon_Objects.png

According to the excavation paper:


There are a large amount of archaeological artifacts related to,
but not physically associated with, the human remains from the
funerary context due to later disturbance. About 7979 have been
recorded: pottery fragments (56%), fauna (40.17%), lithic industry
(3.3%) and bone industry (0.2%), which provide significant data for a
formal classification (Fig. 8).

The only DNA tested male from the ATP12-1420 burial was dated to 2960-2829 calBC and belonged to haplogroup I2a2a. Other level 7/8 of the collective funerary tumulus date to as young as 2000 calBC.

jdean
06-10-2018, 08:17 PM
Thank God the genetics has arrived late.

If it'd arrived earlier maybe we wouldn't have had all that racial superiority crap, but probably not.

GASKA
06-10-2018, 08:19 PM
Your mention of the wrist guard jarred my memory. There were also two wrist guards found in the pre-Bell Beaker El Portalon site:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/El_Portalon_Objects.png

According to the excavation paper:



The only DNA tested male from the ATP12-1420 burial was dated to 2960-2829 calBC and belonged to haplogroup I2a2a. Other level 7/8 of the collective funerary tumulus date to as young as 2000 calBC.

Good job, I didn't know, I know you're going to help us find solutions.

Un saludo

ffoucart
06-10-2018, 08:20 PM
We could have started from there and we would all agree. We have said many times that the only aspect of a culture that needs migrations is language, the rest can be explained by trade for example. In adittion, this means that the entry of P312 in Iberia is not related to the BB culture because it already existed here previously. This means only, that the explanation of what happened in the British islands is totally different from what happened in Iberia. You have it clear, we have to look for explanations.

In the tomb of Enrique IV of Castile (1.474), a rhinoceros horn was found, not because he was african, but because he was impotent, and the horn was supposed to be an aphrodisiac.

No. The complete BBs package appeared in Central Europe. That's from there that Late BBs came and expanded in all Western Europe, Iberia included. Diffusing their culture and their genes by demic diffusion.

British Isles undergone a massive impact, but the same story happened everywhere. That's what we seen in the results from Olalde et al.

P312 and Steppe Adminixture were diffused through the BBs web from Central Europe with the complete BBs package.

There is no point denying this.

GASKA
06-10-2018, 08:39 PM
No. The complete BBs package appeared in Central Europe. That's from there that Late BBs came and expanded in all Western Europe, Iberia included. Diffusing their culture and their genes by demic diffusion.

British Isles undergone a massive impact, but the same story happened everywhere. That's what we seen in the results from solaire et al.

P312 and Steppe Adminixture were diffused through the BBs web from Central Europe with the complete BBs package.

There is no point denying this.

Which is the complete BB package? Can you Specify?

Ravai
06-10-2018, 08:49 PM
deleted

etrusco
06-10-2018, 08:50 PM
@gaska and others

or maybe Jeunesse is right in his paper abut the emergence of the warrior ideology in europe:

first we have a non-demic arrival of ideology and warrior equipment in southern europe ( especially northern italy - southern france and iberia) from Kemi Oba with only an elite dominance . We also have the stelae phenomenon in which a full fledged tripartite IE ideology is found and only afterwards a proper demic diffusion connected with R1b P-312.


https://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_für_Archäologie_Eurasiens_14_2014 _p._171-184

As for the stelae ( it is in french):

http://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_Méditerranée_occidentale


as for tripartite ideology on the stelae here's a study


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpn5bt_cnbAhVQdcAKHeCiADMQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F7174548%2FRefl ections_of_a_Trifunctional_Religious_Ideology_amon g_Indo-European_Population_Groups_of_the_3rd_and_2nd_Mill ennia_BC&usg=AOvVaw3kiAiRBl0i3LH4TVnA41sh

GASKA
06-10-2018, 09:06 PM
@gaska and others

or maybe Jeunesse is right in his paper abut the emergence of the warrior ideology in europe:

first we have a non-demic arrival of ideology and warrior equipment in southern europe ( especially northern italy - southern france and iberia) with only an elite dominance . We also have the stelae phenomenon in which a full fledged tripartite IE ideology is found and only afterwards a proper demic diffusion connected with R1b P-312.


https://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_für_Archäologie_Eurasiens_14_2014 _p._171-184

As for the stelae ( it is in french):

http://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_Méditerranée_occidentale


as for tripartite ideology on the stelae here's a study


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjpn5bt_cnbAhVQdcAKHeCiADMQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F7174548%2FRefl ections_of_a_Trifunctional_Religious_Ideology_amon g_Indo-European_Population_Groups_of_the_3rd_and_2nd_Mill ennia_BC&usg=AOvVaw3kiAiRBl0i3LH4TVnA41sh

Why not? You have already seen the princely tombs in Valencina de la Concepcion, a man painted by ochre, with spectacular and expensive grave goods, and a suicide of 20 women. In that prehistoric era Valencina was a seaport, those elites could come from outside (even from the steppes) with their warrior customs. Nothing is surprising after finding walrus teeth in the suary of Tagus river.

GASKA
06-10-2018, 09:12 PM
Dear all, this thread is getting very interesting.

According to YFull, R-P312 was formed 4,800 years ago. If we take this dating as true. The oldest R-P312 found in Iberia is (I6472 PF6658 + 2500-2000 BCE Bell Beaker, La Magdalena, Madrid). They are scarce 300 years since R-P312 was formed. So, I think maybe, both hypotheses can be correct. That is, suppose there was a first wave of R-P312 from perhaps Anatolia via the Mediterranean to Iberia and a little later there was another wave of R-P312 from Yamnaya Culture to Central Europe. It may be that the R-P312 arrived in Iberia had descendants R-DF27 and the descendants of the steppes were R-U152, R-L21, among others.

I ask. Has this possibility ever been raised? Do you see it viable? Points in favor, points against. What clues should appear so that it could be assessed as a possibility? My apologies if I said nonsense, but maybe if we ask new questions we found the solution.

Excuse my English, I used a translator.

Regards

I believe that any explanation, however difficult it may seem, is possible.

Un saludo, me alegra que participes en el grupo

rms2
06-10-2018, 09:12 PM
. . . In adittion, this means that the entry of P312 in Iberia is not related to the BB culture because it already existed here previously . . .

The big problem with that is that it isn't true.

rms2
06-10-2018, 09:33 PM
@gaska and others

or maybe Jeunesse is right in his paper abut the emergence of the warrior ideology in europe . . .

Here is another paper by Jeunesse definitely worth reading:

The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (http://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction)

etrusco
06-10-2018, 09:48 PM
Here is another paper by Jeunesse definitely worth reading:

The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (http://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction)


yes I have read it ......in fact he says in the paper I quoted that the warrior package comes from Kemi Oba/ Maykop but I do not remember exactly what the paper on caucasus said about genetics of Kemi Oba....do you recall something?

rms2
06-10-2018, 09:58 PM
I don't believe any samples from Kemi Oba have been tested yet.

GASKA
06-10-2018, 10:06 PM
Here is another paper by Jeunesse definitely worth reading:

The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (http://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction)

I hope you find something better, the paper is old and has no dating by C14. Anyway don't worry I have said in some occasion that I don't try to convince anyone of anything, in the same way, to convince me is not easy, unless the evidence is conclusive. So you need C14, and that is currently impossible.

rms2
06-10-2018, 10:11 PM
I hope you find something better, the paper is old and has no dating by C14. Anyway don't worry I have said in some occasion that I don't try to convince anyone of anything, in the same way, to convince me is not easy, unless the evidence is conclusive. So you need C14, and that is currently impossible.

I'm sorry that you have made this thread into another anachronistic argument about the primacy of Iberia and the Basques when there was no good reason to do so.

IMHO, Iberia had little if anything to do with the genesis of Bell Beaker.

razyn
06-10-2018, 10:31 PM
IMHO, Iberia had little if anything to do with the genesis of Bell Beaker.

They definitely score high in Exodus, though.

anglesqueville
06-10-2018, 10:39 PM
I'm sorry that you have made this thread into another anachronistic argument about the primacy of Iberia and the Basques when there was no good reason to do so.

IMHO, Iberia had little if anything to do with the genesis of Bell Beaker.

100% agree, and btw Jeunesse's paper about the iberic BB dogma can really not be countered with an only C14 argument. His other paper about the anthropomorphic stellaes provides many evidences against the idea of an iberic craddle of the BB package. Perhaps because of my dutch part I would like that someone more aware than me tells about Swifterbank. The theory of the dutch craddle would merit a new examination, at least for the "pots".
etrusco, about the "peripherical" and southern Europe: I told of Prehistory, settlement, and genetics. Don't make me say what I will never say. I spent a week (only a week, but, wow... what a week!) in Roma some years ago. Just heartbreacking. Alone with my wife in the early morning, just after the opening, in the "roman forum", well we were both tears in our eyes. And St Peter's Basilica, and Santa Maria majora (from someone who has grown in the lutherian tradition...), and the Pieta ( the Pieta... is there a word for that?), and the rest, which is infinite because this town is infinite... Please don't make me say what I will never say.

etrusco
06-10-2018, 10:51 PM
100% agree, and btw Jeunesse's paper about the iberic BB dogma can really not be countered with an only C14 argument. His other paper about the anthropomorphic stellaes provides many evidences against the idea of an iberic craddle of the BB package. Perhaps because of my dutch part I would like that someone more aware than me tells about Swifterbank. The theory of the dutch craddle would merit a new examination, at least for the "pots".
etrusco, about the "peripherical" and southern Europe: I told of Prehistory, settlement, and genetics. Don't make me say what I will never say. I spent a week (only a week, but, wow... what a week!) in Roma some years ago. Just heartbreacking. Alone with my wife in the early morning, just after the opening, in the "roman forum", well we were both tears in our eyes. And St Peter's Basilica, and Santa Maria majora (from someone who has grown in the lutherian tradition...), and the Pieta ( the Pieta... is there as word for that?), and the rest, which is infinite because this town is infinite... Please don't make me say what I will never say.

no problem, it was not intended as personal reply ( as I hinted in the post) ......just take it as a rant by a sad italian turning to the past just to forget the fact that contemporary Italy is something of a laughing stock country.....

Romilius
06-11-2018, 12:47 AM
I have not brought the subject, and I see that you are still very concerned with the issue of the Basques, I send you two other examples, but I could send you thousands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mart%C3%ADn_de_Bertendona

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3bal_de_O%C3%B1ate

Regarding the Iberians for now we are going to settle for seeing Nadal winning for the eleventh time Roland Garros, then we will continue to claim what we deem appropiate.

Thousands? I doubt it... don't pretend to be someone you aren't, please. Be a gentleman...

As you can see, all Basques were hidalgos, but only few Basques hidalgos passed to history records... why? They were privileged and in a position from where it would have been very easy to do something great... but nothing: they did nothing important.

Then, they passed to history because of their terroristic way to deal with Spanish government... I'm sorry, but there is very few to be proud of,,, deal with it. To speak a rare and ancient language isn't enough to feel proud of own origins...

ffoucart
06-11-2018, 05:55 AM
As you have seen, I have only tried to explain that the cultures of Southern Europe were demographically, culturally, materially, commercially and technologically powerful enogh to make to make invasions impossible in these regions. Our explanation is different and we will share it with you.

That is stupid. It's exactly the same argument as the OIT: too numerous, too civilized to have been conquered.

May I remember you that History is full of such conquests? You know what happened to the Roman Empire, right?

The Balkans Neolithic Cultures (the so-called Danubian Culture or even Civilization) were even brighter (to a large scale) than the ones of Iberia, France or Italy. Did it change anything? No, Steppe invasion happened in the Balkans, even if the genetic impact was lower.

GASKA
06-11-2018, 06:02 AM
Here we go. It's a way of speaking, if you prefer I can say There I go. In these pages, I feel like Retogenes defending Numantia from the Romans.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia

1ş- 3.200 BC- Due to the increase of agricultural production (irrigation system, crop rotation) occurred in the Iberian Peninsula an excess of food production for the first time in history. The consequence was the appearance of a stratified society that had to star defending those food surpluses. At least one hundred fortified cities in the southern half of the peninsula (Vilanova, Zambujal, Leceia, los Millares, Valencina, la Pijotilla, San Blas, Marroquies Bajos......). The elites of these cities controlled meritime trade, they imported ivory (Africa, Asia), amber (Sicily), and exported salt and copper lingots.
2ş- 2.800-2.500 B.C- A new type of ceramic appears in the Tagus stuary, and it becomes a new export product. The commercial exchanges take this ceramics to the Atlantic coast of Morocco, Sicily, and Spanish, French, and Italian mediterranean coast, until arriving at the river Rhone and following its course to the Swiss Alps and to the river Rhine. You already have the BB culture and its ideology in Germany (2.500 B.C). There local models probably influenced by CWC (AOC....) were developed and exported to Hungary, Poland and British isles, although in this case through major population movements. AOC also extended into the Iberian peninsula (2.400-2.350 B.C).
3ş-(2.750-2.600 B.C)- Following the course of the Guadiana and Tagus rivers BBC reaches the Northern Plateau (Castile), too much colder and poorer than the fertil Andalusian countryside. The small family agricultural settlements quickly adopt the BB customs (cooper objects, ivory, ceramics..)
4ş- Who were these people? According to the obtained mitochondrial haplogroups-H7d-h2a2a-Hvo- I2 (never seen in Iberia before), they are people from the neolithic cultures of Germany- Baalberge, Salzmunde?, Bernburg? As women don't travel alone, I think that the men who accompanied them could be R1b L11/P312, but that can only be verified when the results of haplogroup-Y are published.

We need P312 in northern France/central Germany 2.900 B.C, and I think that this falls within the reasonable limits of time. I know that this theory is totally incompatible with what you are discussing in this forum (basically bring L23 from Yamnaya Post 2.900 B.C). I don't pretend to bother anyone, just share this information with some people that I think are interesting, and can help us solve the mistery.

http://www.jfranciscofabian.com/pdf/EL_TOMILLAR.PDF

http://eprints.ucm.es/34256/1/T36669.pdf

Sorry, I have not been able to find translations in English, only the Doctoral Thesis had a short summary in that language.

Warning-Geneticits don't know much about archaelogy, although they rate well the sites (PRE-BB, BB, Bronze age, Cogotas), the dates are not correct. I send you one of the sites (Bercial de Zapardiel), as you will see it's modest and humble, nothing spectacular in archaelogical pieces, the only thing that makes it special is the abundance of H7d.

Un saludo

GASKA
06-11-2018, 06:04 AM
That is stupid. It's exactly the same argument as the OIT: too numerous, too civilized to have been conquered.

May I remember that History is full of such conquests? You know what happened to the Roman Empire, right?

The Balkans Neolithic Cultures (the so-called Danubian Culture or even Civilization) were even brighter (to a large scale) than the ones of Siberia, France or Italy. Did it change anything? No, Steppe invasion happened in the Balkans, even the genetic impact was lower.

I am waiting for what you think is BB complete package

Romilius
06-11-2018, 08:15 AM
Here we go. It's a way of speaking, if you prefer I can say There I go. In these pages, I feel like Retogenes defending Numantia from the Romans.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia

1ş- 3.200 BC- Due to the increase of agricultural production (irrigation system, crop rotation) occurred in the Iberian Peninsula an excess of food production for the first time in history. The consequence was the appearance of a stratified society that had to star defending those food surpluses. At least one hundred fortified cities in the southern half of the peninsula (Vilanova, Zambujal, Leceia, los Millares, Valencina, la Pijotilla, San Blas, Marroquies Bajos......). The elites of these cities controlled meritime trade, they imported ivory (Africa, Asia), amber (Sicily), and exported salt and copper lingots.
2ş- 2.800-2.500 B.C- A new type of ceramic appears in the Tagus stuary, and it becomes a new export product. The commercial exchanges take this ceramics to the Atlantic coast of Morocco, Sicily, and Spanish, French, and Italian mediterranean coast, until arriving at the river Rhone and following its course to the Swiss Alps and to the river Rhine. You already have the BB culture and its ideology in Germany (2.500 B.C). There local models probably influenced by CWC (AOC....) were developed and exported to Hungary, Poland and British isles, although in this case through major population movements. AOC also extended into the Iberian peninsula (2.400-2.350 B.C).
3ş-(2.750-2.600 B.C)- Following the course of the Guadiana and Tagus rivers BBC reaches the Northern Plateau (Castile), too much colder and poorer than the fertil Andalusian countryside. The small family agricultural settlements quickly adopt the BB customs (cooper objects, ivory, ceramics..)
4ş- Who were these people? According to the obtained mitochondrial haplogroups-H7d-h2a2a-Hvo- I2 (never seen in Iberia before), they are people from the neolithic cultures of Germany- Baalberge, Salzmunde?, Bernburg? As women don't travel alone, I think that the men who accompanied them could be R1b L11/P312, but that can only be verified when the results of haplogroup-Y are published.

We need P312 in northern France/central Germany 2.900 B.C, and I think that this falls within the reasonable limits of time. I know that this theory is totally incompatible with what you are discussing in this forum (basically bring L23 from Yamnaya Post 2.900 B.C). I don't pretend to bother anyone, just share this information with some people that I think are interesting, and can help us solve the mistery.

http://www.jfranciscofabian.com/pdf/EL_TOMILLAR.PDF

http://eprints.ucm.es/34256/1/T36669.pdf

Sorry, I have not been able to find translations in English, only the Doctoral Thesis had a short summary in that language.

Warning-Geneticits don't know much about archaelogy, although they rate well the sites (PRE-BB, BB, Bronze age, Cogotas), the dates are not correct. I send you one of the sites (Bercial de Zapardiel), as you will see it's modest and humble, nothing spectacular in archaelogical pieces, the only thing that makes it special is the abundance of H7d.

Un saludo

Again: we already have Y-DNA from Baalberge... R-V88 and I2a.

GASKA
06-11-2018, 09:31 AM
Thousands? I doubt it... don't pretend to be someone you aren't, please. Be a gentleman...

As you can see, all Basques were hidalgos, but only few Basques hidalgos passed to history records... why? They were privileged and in a position from where it would have been very easy to do something great... but nothing: they did nothing important.

Then, they passed to history because of their terroristic way to deal with Spanish government... I'm sorry, but there is very few to be proud of,,, deal with it. To speak a rare and ancient language isn't enough to feel proud of own origins...

As you may have seen, I will not be tempted to respond to your provocations. All Spaniards have suffered a lot with terrorism (many people have lost relatives, friends, have died politicians, children, women and ALL of them innocent), Thank God we have overcome it. Unfortunately most European countries have suffered the same experience (Ireland, Great Britain, Italy and France specially but also Germany, Belgium, Rusia......).It's a delicate subject that you have to talk about with great caution.

ffoucart
06-11-2018, 10:11 AM
I am waiting for what you think is BB complete package

A single burial with grave goods including Beaker vessels, stone wrists, coper dagger, V-buttons, arrowheads and similar specific artifacts. Obviously on sulpine position.

About P312 in Northern France around 3000BC, it's extremely unlikely. In any case, we know that ancestral subclades have been found in Eastern Europe/European Steppe. We have enough samples to have a good on where we can find P312 between 3000BC and 2500BC. And from an archeological point of view, I don't see how P312 could went from Northern France to Iberia in the IIId millenium BC.

Something which could be of interest for you:
http://www.prehistoire.org/offres/file_inline_src/515/515_pj_141216_070442.pdf
https://www.revue-archeologique-picardie.fr/bibliotheque/Salanova,%20Brunet,%20Cottiaux%20et%20al.%202011.p df

rms2
06-11-2018, 10:48 AM
100% agree, and btw Jeunesse's paper about the iberic BB dogma can really not be countered with an only C14 argument. His other paper about the anthropomorphic stellaes provides many evidences against the idea of an iberic craddle of the BB package . . .

Yes, and I would say that Olalde et al have transformed Christian Jeunesse into a prophet.

anglesqueville
06-11-2018, 11:09 AM
Don't know how many pages of this thread have been devoted to the now highly outdated connexion Beakers-Iberia. I'm a little surprised that so far nobody has thought to start a (perhaps slightly off topic, but that does'nt seem that crazy after those iberic debates ...) discussion about the thesis of Carlos Quiles. In one sentence, in laymen's terms: Beakers = all of IE spread, including germanic, and even balto-slavic (not too sure), Corded Ware = nothing (but proto-finnic, if I well understood). Make no mistake: I do not support myself this thesis. I just would be curious to see it debated (incl. challenged, and eventually supported, if it's actually possible, by someone else than C.Q.)

rms2
06-11-2018, 11:24 AM
Don't know how many pages of this thread have been devoted to the now highly outdated connexion Beakers-Iberia. I'm a little surprised that so far nobody has thought to start a (perhaps slightly off topic, but that does'nt seem that crazy after those iberic debates ...) discussion about the thesis of Carlos Quiles. In one sentence, in laymen's terms: Beakers = all of IE spread, including germanic, and even balto-slavic (not too sure), Corded Ware = nothing (but proto-finnic, if I well understood). Make no mistake: I do not support myself this thesis. I just would be curious to see it debated (incl. challenged, and eventually supported, if it's actually possible, by someone else than C.Q.)

I'm not familiar with Carlos' arguments, but I don't see how one can make a compelling case that Kurgan Bell Beaker is responsible for all of western IE. Beaker didn't make much of an impact in the regions that would become Balto-Slavic speaking. It may have had a part to play in the development of Germanic; I don't know.

Pretty obviously Kurgan Bell Beaker had nothing whatsoever to do with the Indo-Iranian or Tocharian branches of IE, or with Greek, Armenian, etc., etc.

IMHO, Kurgan Bell Beaker can be solidly associated with Italo-Celtic. Anything else is kind of iffy.

etrusco
06-11-2018, 11:47 AM
Don't know how many pages of this thread have been devoted to the now highly outdated connexion Beakers-Iberia. I'm a little surprised that so far nobody has thought to start a (perhaps slightly off topic, but that does'nt seem that crazy after those iberic debates ...) discussion about the thesis of Carlos Quiles. In one sentence, in laymen's terms: Beakers = all of IE spread, including germanic, and even balto-slavic (not too sure), Corded Ware = nothing (but proto-finnic, if I well understood). Make no mistake: I do not support myself this thesis. I just would be curious to see it debated (incl. challenged, and eventually supported, if it's actually possible, by someone else than C.Q.)

If you red the last post on Carlo's blog the commentator that raised the question of Schrijvers book ( old europe) is....me.
BTW his theory is difficult to prove but at least from a linguistically point of view his thesis perfectly fits the result of Schrijver's research and the relationship between corded ware and bell beaker in northern europe.

rms2

"KBB has nothing to do with tocharian and IA" ...

well that is not his thesis ...
he believes R1b from Samara heading east is tocharian
Centum languages from KBB
balto-slavic from an elite dominance of KBB on corded ware guys
then Indoiranian from a back migration of satem speakers to the east and influence of eastern clades (populations) of R1b to form Indoiranian .
I maybe miss something but that is his theory...R1b L-23= ALL INDOEUROPEAN LANGUAGES.

Anatolia= elite dominance

Generalissimo
06-11-2018, 11:51 AM
Don't know how many pages of this thread have been devoted to the now highly outdated connexion Beakers-Iberia. I'm a little surprised that so far nobody has thought to start a (perhaps slightly off topic, but that does'nt seem that crazy after those iberic debates ...) discussion about the thesis of Carlos Quiles. In one sentence, in laymen's terms: Beakers = all of IE spread, including germanic, and even balto-slavic (not too sure), Corded Ware = nothing (but proto-finnic, if I well understood). Make no mistake: I do not support myself this thesis. I just would be curious to see it debated (incl. challenged, and eventually supported, if it's actually possible, by someone else than C.Q.)

Corded Ware Proto-Finnic? And Cucuteni-Tripoli Uralic? A more apt conclusion is that Carlos is mentally unstable.

I've pointed out some of the obvious shortcomings in his thesis to him over e-mail, and in reply he just rambled nonsense that had nothing to do with the points I made. It was as if he was replying to someone else about another topic.

I don't understand how anyone can go to his website and take him seriously, especially after attempting to converse with him. I think it's alarming that his work is being linked to and potentially taken seriously.

GASKA
06-11-2018, 12:28 PM
A single burial with grave goods including Beaker vessels, stone wrists, coper dagger, V-buttons, arrowheads and similar specific artifacts. Obviously on sulpine position.

About P312 in Northern France around 3000BC, it's extremely unlikely. In any case, we know that ancestral subclades have been found in Eastern Europe/European Steppe. We have enough samples to have a good on where we can find P312 between 3000BC and 2500BC. And from an archeological point of view, I don't see how P312 could went from Northern France to Iberia in the IIId millenium BC.

Something which could be of interest for you:
http://www.prehistoire.org/offres/file_inline_src/515/515_pj_141216_070442.pdf
https://www.revue-archeologique-picardie.fr/bibliotheque/Salanova,%20Brunet,%20Cottiaux%20et%20al.%202011.p df

Thank you, Salanova's paper is good, I already Knew. Regarding the BB package, affirming how you do, that was introduced in Iberia by Central europeans, can only be maintained by someone who is totally unaware of the Iberian chalcolitic.

1.- You can reread Olalde's paper- Even one of the German BB belonging to haplogroup G2a was buried with a wrisguard. Not all central european BB were P312, and I suppose if they colonized us, they would also come G2a, or may be they did genetic tests and only P312 came, as it seems that happened in Yamnaya with Q.

2.- Look at the burials, in Germany 3-4 have cooper objects (mainly awls), most are extremely poor (only a few have more than one vessel), and of course few gold and ivory.

3.- Famous BB package is only found in some isolated burial.

4- Iberian BB- There are pieces such as Palmela cooper spearheads that are exclusive of Iberia and southern France. They are very abundants, and in some burials have been found up to 13. Ciempozuelos BB style (2.400-1.800 B.C) only exist in Iberia and specially in the northern plateau. Burials are much richer in cooper, gold, ivory and amber. Burials can be in hypogeums, natural caves, artificial caves, pits, dolmens, mounds..) and familar, individual, double, triple, without special orientation. We only agree in the supine position.

After this, can you tell me what part of BB culture was introduced by P312 in Iberia?. I can tell you, absolutely nothing. I could only accept sporadic entries from individuals P312 after 2.500 B.C, who quickly adapted the customs of BB settlements (P312 is buried in the same sites in contemporary tombs and adjacents to I2a burials).

Where we can find (according to you) find P312 (3.000-2.500 B.C)?

Regarding the superiority of the South and Atlantic Iberian chalcolitic cultures, is more than obvius, and of course No stupid. Only someone who doesn't know the Prehistory of Western Europe can affirm that. Some cities were fortified with three lines of walls and defensive bastions, others have up to four lines of defensive pits and walls, one of them has an extension of 80 hectares. The great majority remained inhabited between 3.000-2.200 BC and there are no signs of massive destruction or fire. There were abandoned when the natural resources were exhausted, probably because climate event 4.2K that brought a terrible time of aridity and drought.

rms2
06-11-2018, 01:09 PM
. . .

1.- You can reread Olalde's paper- Even one of the German BB belonging to haplogroup G2a was buried with a wrisguard. Not all central european BB were P312, and I suppose if they colonized us, they would also come G2a, or may be they did genetic tests and only P312 came, as it seems that happened in Yamnaya with Q . . .

There were only a handful of non-Iberian Bell Beaker results in Olalde et al that were not R1b, and all save one of those (an I2a) had little or no steppe dna. Obviously they were recruits from among the native Neolithic farming population. I believe there were five in total, but I am not at home and so do not have access to my home computer or I could be more precise and list them all for you.

It seems to me you jumble a lot of Iberian information together and call it all Bell Beaker, regardless of date. As I understand it, most of the bell beakers recovered in Iberia come not from burials but from settlement sites.

Another problem with Iberia is that one must separate the supposed earliest Iberian Bell Beaker material from the Kurgan Bell Beaker material introduced after about 2500 BC. The former is the non-R1b-M269 stuff of the various Neolithic-style collective burials, with the Mediterranean-type, gracile, long-headed skeletons. The latter marks the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, R1b-P312, single graves, a warrior's kit of weapons, and robust skeletons with round heads.

Going back to this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13871-Oldest-Steppe-Bell-Beakers-Saxony-Anhalt-Germany&p=411267&viewfull=1#post411267), it is interesting how two separate genetics laboratories, in two different countries, operating independently, came up with the same results.



This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.


Sorry to post that quote again, but I wanted to make the point that two different research teams, operating independently, came up with the same results.

anglesqueville
06-11-2018, 01:35 PM
^^ etrusco: I did'nt read Schrijver's book. What I saw of it on GoogleBooks gave me the feeling that it's sort of reharsh of the old germanic substrate theory of K. Wiik. But perhaps, even likely, false feeling, as Schrijver is a very serious and talented linguist. In any case, after reading Carlos' posts, my immediate reactions were:
1) how does he explain the brutal onset of CHG in the autosomal makeup of CW, as soon as the first CW analysed individual (Zvejnieki)? I searched everywhere on his site and could not find anything, apart from a very curious post about "correlation and causation", which in my view mostly seems to justify an implicit decision not to take into account any autosomal result. 2) How does he interpret the complete absence of N1 in a population supposed to speak an uralic language? 3) Is CW not too old to support a proto-finnic language? Not sure, as the proto-uralic chronology has changed during these last years.
As I told, only impulsive reactions, and I was convinced that, as his thesis would be quickly fiercely debated, I would likely find in the debates answers to my interrogations. But so far, afaik, no debate happened.

rms2
06-11-2018, 01:40 PM
^^ etrusco: I did'nt read Schrijver's book. What I saw of it on GoogleBooks gave me the feeling that it's sort of reharsh of the old germanic substrate theory of K. Wiik. But perhaps, even likely, false feeling, as Schrijver is a very serious and talented linguist. In any case, after reading Carlos' posts, my immediate reactions were:
1) how does he explain the brutal onset of CHG in the autosomal makeup of CW, as soon as the first CW analysed individual (Zvejnieki)? I searched everywhere on his site and could not find anything, apart from a very curious post about "correlation and causation", which in my view mostly seems to justify an implicit decision not to take into account any autosomal result. 2) How does he interpret the complete absence of N1 in a population supposed to speak an uralic language? 3) Is CW not too old to support a proto-finnic language? Not sure, as the proto-uralic chronology has changed during these last years.
As I told, only impulsive reactions, and I was convinced that, as his thesis would be quickly fiercely debated, I would likely find in the debates answers to my interrogations. But so far, afaik, no debate happened.

I think someone would have to agree with Carlos for a debate to occur. Either that, or Carlos would have to take up the gauntlet himself and enter the lists here.

anglesqueville
06-11-2018, 01:42 PM
double post (for some reason)

jdean
06-11-2018, 01:49 PM
Going back to this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13871-Oldest-Steppe-Bell-Beakers-Saxony-Anhalt-Germany&p=411267&viewfull=1#post411267), it is interesting how two separate genetics laboratories, in two different countries, operating independently, came up with the same results.


This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

28. Martiniano et al., "West Iberia"; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory.

Thought folk would be interested in the reference : )

rms2
06-11-2018, 01:52 PM
Thought folk would be interested in the reference : )

Thanks, and that also points out that he and Dan Bradley have more results even beyond the ones from Olalde et al and from Martiniano, which have been published.

ffoucart
06-11-2018, 02:22 PM
Thank you, Salanova's paper is good, I already Knew. Regarding the BB package, affirming how you do, that was introduced in Iberia by Central europeans, can only be maintained by someone who is totally unaware of the Iberian chalcolitic.

1.- You can reread Olalde's paper- Even one of the German BB belonging to haplogroup G2a was buried with a wrisguard. Not all central european BB were P312, and I suppose if they colonized us, they would also come G2a, or may be they did genetic tests and only P312 came, as it seems that happened in Yamnaya with Q.

2.- Look at the burials, in Germany 3-4 have cooper objects (mainly awls), most are extremely poor (only a few have more than one vessel), and of course few gold and ivory.

3.- Famous BB package is only found in some isolated burial.

4- Iberian BB- There are pieces such as Palmela cooper spearheads that are exclusive of Iberia and southern France. They are very abundants, and in some burials have been found up to 13. Ciempozuelos BB style (2.400-1.800 B.C) only exist in Iberia and specially in the northern plateau. Burials are much richer in cooper, gold, ivory and amber. Burials can be in hypogeums, natural caves, artificial caves, pits, dolmens, mounds..) and familar, individual, double, triple, without special orientation. We only agree in the supine position.

After this, can you tell me what part of BB culture was introduced by P312 in Iberia?. I can tell you, absolutely nothing. I could only accept sporadic entries from individuals P312 after 2.500 B.C, who quickly adapted the customs of BB settlements (P312 is buried in the same sites in contemporary tombs and adjacents to I2a burials).

You are using different examples with different periods. There are different phases to define BBs, and only the later phases implied migrants from Central Europe.

Sporadic migrants will not explain a 30% Steppe admixture nor the replacement of previous Y haplogroups by R1b.


Where we can find (according to you) find P312 (3.000-2.500 B.C)?.

In Eastern Europe/Pontic Steppe. That's obvious. Perhaps in Hungary. We'll see what the Hungary-Yamnaya's haplogroups are soon enough. The wait will be short.

In any case, L51 and P312 are too closely related to Steppe subclades to come from elsewhere.


Regarding the superiority of the South and Atlantic Iberian chalcolitic cultures, is more than obvius, and of course No stupid. Only someone who doesn't know the Prehistory of Western Europe can affirm that..

Well, if you say so. But I'm still thinking that I have a far better understanding of archeology than you.

Anyway, that is not the point: an argument based on the level of culture reached by some to explain why they can't be conquered by other, with a lower level of civilization, is just ridiculous. This is a no-argument. It is only hightlightning the lack of knowledge of the person which use it, as History is full of examples.


Some cities were fortified with three lines of walls and defensive bastions, others have up to four lines of defensive pits and walls, one of them has an extension of 80 hectares. The great majority remained inhabited between 3.000-2.200 BC and there are no signs of massive destruction or fire. There were abandoned when the natural resources were exhausted, probably because climate event 4.2K that brought a terrible time of aridity and drought.

What is the point? It is clear Central Europe BBs took over without destroying. Stonehenge is an example of such behaviour.

etrusco
06-11-2018, 02:31 PM
^^ etrusco: I did'nt read Schrijver's book. What I saw of it on GoogleBooks gave me the feeling that it's sort of reharsh of the old germanic substrate theory of K. Wiik. But perhaps, even likely, false feeling, as Schrijver is a very serious and talented linguist. In any case, after reading Carlos' posts, my immediate reactions were:
1) how does he explain the brutal onset of CHG in the autosomal makeup of CW, as soon as the first CW analysed individual (Zvejnieki)? I searched everywhere on his site and could not find anything, apart from a very curious post about "correlation and causation", which in my view mostly seems to justify an implicit decision not to take into account any autosomal result. 2) How does he interpret the complete absence of N1 in a population supposed to speak an uralic language? 3) Is CW not too old to support a proto-finnic language? Not sure, as the proto-uralic chronology has changed during these last years.
As I told, only impulsive reactions, and I was convinced that, as his thesis would be quickly fiercely debated, I would likely find in the debates answers to my interrogations. But so far, afaik, no debate happened.

as for point 1 I agree with you it seems the most serious blow you can find against his theory. As for the others I do not know very well the topic .
but to play the devil's advocate I do not think a language can be correlated perfectly with a genetic family. I think it is more complicated.
and also it is strange that we have from the steppe the same source population ( steppe autosomal) that expanded west ( r1a and R1b) without mixing ( even a bit) .....I find this thing pretty stunning like that in reality they came from opposite direction. To me the steppe hypothesis is not convincing yet....I think at the end with more careful examination.( who suspected until some months ago that EEF made it to Samara)..with more samples ( Hittites and central and southern italy Bronze age) the role of the farmers in the birth of PIE will be fully recognized. Maybe PIE was like the formation of modern english ( a mix of norman french and old saxon. A mix between farmers and steppe language probably inside Sredni Stog.
We'll see what happens!

GASKA
06-11-2018, 03:41 PM
You are using different examples with different periods. There are different phases to define BBs, and only the later phases implied migrants from Central Europe.

Sporadic migrants will not explain a 30% Steppe admixture nor the replacement of previous Y haplogroups by R1b.



In Eastern Europe/Pontic Steppe. That's obvious. Perhaps in Hungary. We'll see what the Hungary-Yamnaya's haplogroups are soon enough. The wait will be short.

In any case, L51 and P312 are too closely related to Steppe subclades to come from elsewhere.



Well, if you say so. But I'm still thinking that I have a far better understanding of archeology than you.

Anyway, that is not the point: an argument based on the level of culture reached by some to explain why they can't be conquered by other, with a lower level of civilization, is just ridiculous. This is a no-argument. It is only hightlightning the lack of knowledge of the person which use it, as History is full of examples.



What is the point? It is clear Central Europe BBs took over without destroying. Stonehenge is an example of such behaviour.

I didn't say it could not have happened (conquest made by a lower culture), I said it didn't happen, because we would have found evidence. Those villages were never inhabited by anyone else, but deserted, so P312 didn't take anything.

P312 in the steppes (2.900-2.500 B.C), I already imagined it.

Steppe dna- we have already seen that is only 15% (I5665, Virgazal).

What date do you propose for that late entry of migrants?

Do you still claim that the entire BB package was introduced in Iberia by central europeans BBs?

ffoucart
06-11-2018, 04:05 PM
I didn't say it could not have happened (conquest made by a lower culture), I said it didn't happen, because we would have found evidence. Those villages were never inhabited by anyone else, but deserted, so P312 didn't take anything.

P312 in the steppes (2.900-2.500 B.C), I already imagined it.

Steppe dna- we have already seen that is only 15% (I5665, Virgazal).

What date do you propose for that late entry of migrants?

Do you still claim that the entire BB package was introduced in Iberia by central europeans BBs?

I have already answered to those questions. As I already said to you that Olalde et al. conclusions are suiting me, all in all.

By the way, it's clear that Central European BBs imposed their Y haplogroups. The only explanation is they did have a higher status, and imposed themselves to everybody else (as other males weren't able to reproduce, and women were reproducing near exclusively with Central European BBs). This is extreme social dominance, and could only be achieve through conquest.

Romilius
06-11-2018, 05:20 PM
I didn't say it could not have happened (conquest made by a lower culture), I said it didn't happen, because we would have found evidence. Those villages were never inhabited by anyone else, but deserted, so P312 didn't take anything.

P312 in the steppes (2.900-2.500 B.C), I already imagined it.

Steppe dna- we have already seen that is only 15% (I5665, Virgazal).

What date do you propose for that late entry of migrants?

Do you still claim that the entire BB package was introduced in Iberia by central europeans BBs?

Do you pretend not to understand or what?

It's obvious that some features of Neolithic population all over Europe and BBC features are someway similar and then hard to distinguish between them.
For example, Remedello culture has a package very similar to that of BBC, but surely not the same.

15%... 30%... 50%... we've already discussed about this, but you again pretend not to understand: the percentage is sign of an introgression of people with another ancestry... and, also, different percentages could show different generations. I remember I provided a so stupid example that also a close-minded chauvinistic defender of old ideas could understand:

man 50% steppe 50% neolithic + woman 100% neolithic = son/daughter with less steppe admixture than the father...

it's not difficult... try to understand...

The Beakers studied by Olalde with P312 are 2200 BC circa... so a little bit young... probably in Iberia for four or five generations or more.

alan
06-11-2018, 07:45 PM
"But the past month or two seems to be the "Season of the Ethno-nationalist Partisan" here at Anthrogenica"

Yes you may have a point but let me tell you this....I sometimes have the impression that people that back up the steppe hypothesis tend to be a little bit "nordicist" ( just a little bit) otherwise I cannot explain myself why every time a "southern european" just try to raise questions about the steppe theory rarely he's responded without condescending; that's why I sometimes think that "steppist" are just ethno-nationalist that are just lucky enough to be on the "right side" ( so far) of scientific research.
Maybe (if) the steppe theory one day will be debunked we'll see what the reaction will be on their part....

What I want to say is that be conscious or not of it everyone of us have an ethno-nationalistic bias...like it or not.... the most important thing is to not let interact with scientific debate.

Ok you got me. The game is up. I confess that I always post while wearing an SS uniform sitting by a huge oil painting of the fuhrer and dreaming of the fourth reich 😂

GASKA
06-11-2018, 10:15 PM
Do you pretend not to understand or what?

It's obvious that some features of Neolithic population all over Europe and BBC features are someway similar and then hard to distinguish between them.
For example, Remedello culture has a package very similar to that of BBC, but surely not the same.

15%... 30%... 50%... we've already discussed about this, but you again pretend not to understand: the percentage is sign of an introgression of people with another ancestry... and, also, different percentages could show different generations. I remember I provided a so stupid example that also a close-minded chauvinistic defender of old ideas could understand:

man 50% steppe 50% neolithic + woman 100% neolithic = son/daughter with less steppe admixture than the father...

it's not difficult... try to understand...

The Beakers studied by Olalde with P312 are 2200 BC circa... so a little bit young... probably in Iberia for four or five generations or more.

Wonderful, after the theory of the "John Smith Kurgan Bell Beakers", for which our friend is Known in the International Scientific Community, we are now wittnessing the birth of the "Theory of Similarity", which means according to our friend that neolithic and chalcolitic European cultures are practically indistinguishable because they have similar features. Congratulations, you have earned a place in the history of European Archeology, even if you have spoiled the work of the last hundred years.

It's clear that everything is allowed, the arguments are poor and the Knowledge scarce- Patriarchal society (when interesting), exogamy (but not always), technical superiority (because you are kidding), physical superiority (if you need it), central european BB package (when you are desperate), genetic compact hordes of BB R1b (if G2a appear in Germany, we recruit them, but they don't travel with us), , and of course if we found Hungarian BBs (mostly I2) they stay in Hungary.

A disaster of arguments and no Knowledge of European Prehistory. I hope you are very lucky in the search of the truth, because you will need it. Un saludo.

rms2
06-11-2018, 10:24 PM
That did not make any sense.

anglesqueville
06-11-2018, 10:36 PM
If some day our great french antisteppist guru Jean-Paul Demoule reads GASKA, I'm quite sure he will fall in love.

jdean
06-11-2018, 10:38 PM
if G2a appear in Germany, we recruit them, but they don't travel with us

Clearly you are somebody who enjoys playing games with nos. so here's a good one for you, where are your L23 Neolithic W. Europeans hiding, is it through the square window, arched window or round window ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PUtiIFOsrs

rms2
06-11-2018, 11:18 PM
From Olalde et al, page 1:



The Y-chromosome composition of Beaker-complex-associated males was dominated by R1b-M269 (Supplementary Table 4), which is a lineage associated with the arrival of steppe migrants in central Europe after 3000 bc2,3. Outside Iberia, this lineage was present in 84 out of 90 analysed males. For individuals for whom we determined the R1b-M269 subtype (n = 60), we found that all but two had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today14.


Okay, so there were six non-R1b-M269's among the Kurgan Bell Beaker men outside Iberia. Here they all are:

1. E09538 Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a1a 2471–2300 calBCE Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg, Germany) no significant steppe dna (BB_Germany_BAV)

2. I1767 Y-DNA: I2a2a1a1a 2200–1970 calBCE Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, England) no significant steppe dna (BB_England_NOR)

3. I2364 Y-DNA: H2 2470–2060 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary) no significant steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Bud1)

4. I2741 Y-DNA: I2a1a1 2458–2154 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) no significant steppe dna (BB-Hungary_Szi1)

5. I2786 Y-DNA: I2a2a 2459–2206 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Normal BB steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Szi2)

6. I3528 Y-DNA: G2a2a1a2a1 2559–2301 calBCE Budakalász, Csajerszke (M0 Site 12) (Hungary) no significant steppe dna (BB_Hungary_HUN)

You can see that of all of those non-R1b-M269's above, only one, #5, I2786, an I2a2a from Hungary, had steppe dna.

Meanwhile, all of the R1b-M269's had steppe dna.

So, it's easy to see why I characterized that G2a from Germany as a recruit from among the local Neolithic farmers. That's how I view the others, as well, except for I2786.

rms2
06-12-2018, 12:35 AM
So, over 93% of the Bell Beaker y-dna results (84 of 90) outside of Iberia were R1b-M269, and of those for whom a subtype could be determined, about 97% were R1b-P312 (58 of 60).

For stats within Iberia, this is from pages 1-2 of Olalde et al:



By contrast, Beaker-complex-associated individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried a higher proportion of Y haplogroups known to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period2,4,15,16, such as I (n = 5) and G2 (n = 1); R1b-M269 was found in four individuals with a genome-wide signal of steppe-related ancestry, and of these, the two with higher coverage could be classified as R1b-S116/P312.


This is from page 5:



In Iberia, the majority of Beaker-complex-associated individuals lacked steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, steppe-related ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker-complex associated individuals. However, the presence of steppe-related ancestry in some Iberian individuals demonstrates that gene flow into Iberia was not uncommon during this period.


Here are the four Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker samples, all R1b-M269 and all with steppe dna:

1. I5665/RISE911: R1b-P312 2281–1985 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)

2. I6539/Hume 5, UE 455.2: R1b-P312 2500–2000 BCE. Adult male.

3. I6588/Hume 10, UE 455.2: R1b-P310 2500–2000 BCE. Adult male. Second or third-degree relative of I6539.

4. I6472/RISE701, RISE702, sample #11,#12, STTL 5010: R1b-M269 2500–2000 BCE

Of those above, only #1, I5665, was actually C14 dated. The dates for the others are estimates based on archaeological context (i.e., they're probably not as old as 2500 BC).

So what we see in Iberia is an earlier period in which R1b-M269 and steppe dna are lacking, and then a period after about 2500 BC in which Kurgan Bell Beaker from the East begins to appear, with both R1b-M269 and steppe dna.

As for Beaker spreading outward to Central Europe from Iberia, at least with regard to gene flow, there is no sign of it (from page 4 of Olalde et al):



These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.

alan
06-12-2018, 12:49 AM
So, over 93% of the Bell Beaker y-dna results (84 of 90) outside of Iberia were R1b-M269, and of those for whom a subtype could determined, about 97% were R1b-P312 (58 of 60).

For stats within Iberia, this is from pages 1-2 of Olalde et al:



This is from page 5:



Here are the four Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker samples, all R1b-M269 and all with steppe dna:

1. I5665/RISE911: R1b-P312 2281–1985 calBCE (3730±40 BP, Poz-49174)

2. I6539/Hume 5, UE 455.2: R1b-P312 2500–2000 BCE. Adult male.

3. I6588/Hume 10, UE 455.2: R1b-P310 2500–2000 BCE. Adult male. Second or third-degree relative of I6539.

4. I6472/RISE701, RISE702, sample #11,#12, STTL 5010: R1b-M269 2500–2000 BCE

Of those above, only #1, I5665, was actually C14 dated. The dates for the others are estimates based on archaeological context (i.e., they're probably not as old as 2500 BC).

So what we see in Iberia is an earlier period in which R1b-M269 and steppe dna are lacking, and then a period after about 2500 BC in which Kurgan Bell Beaker from the East begins to appear, with both R1b-M269 and steppe dna.

As for Beaker spreading outward to Central Europe from Iberia, and least with regard to gene flow, there is no sign of it (from page 4 of Olalde et al):
That P312 was new to farmer Europe and carried a ton of steppe genes is an open-shut case/ case closed.

R.Rocca
06-12-2018, 02:42 AM
That P312 was new to farmer Europe and carried a ton of steppe genes is an open-shut case/ case closed.

It's irrefutable.

Romilius
06-12-2018, 05:27 AM
Wonderful, after the theory of the "John Smith Kurgan Bell Beakers", for which our friend is Known in the International Scientific Community, we are now wittnessing the birth of the "Theory of Similarity", which means according to our friend that neolithic and chalcolitic European cultures are practically indistinguishable because they have similar features. Congratulations, you have earned a place in the history of European Archeology, even if you have spoiled the work of the last hundred years.

It's clear that everything is allowed, the arguments are poor and the Knowledge scarce- Patriarchal society (when interesting), exogamy (but not always), technical superiority (because you are kidding), physical superiority (if you need it), central european BB package (when you are desperate), genetic compact hordes of BB R1b (if G2a appear in Germany, we recruit them, but they don't travel with us), , and of course if we found Hungarian BBs (mostly I2) they stay in Hungary.

A disaster of arguments and no Knowledge of European Prehistory. I hope you are very lucky in the search of the truth, because you will need it. Un saludo.

Again... the John Smith wasn't a theory... it was a joke built on the fact that I took informations from Jeunesse when saying that, probalby, the culture we call Bell Beaker wasn't uniform and so, genetically speaking, we can see at least two different population in that horizon.

If you didn't understand this, I could never imagine what would't you understand in your life.

Then, tell me if you are 8 y.o., because I feel like to deal with a child: no astraction and all taken on word.

As for the similarities... we are discussing it from the first page, if you were aware of this: we were talking about similarities in packages. We took the example for Remedello many times and, surprise, the population of Remedello was different from that of BBC in Italy... So, similar cultural packages but different populations.

I know that you are offended by my statements about Basques (and here I, personally, see that you aren't scientifically acceptable, because you and others like you, for example Maju, are sieged by a conflict of interests), but to put in a grave your common sense isn't a good way to keep your ideas at an acceptable level.

Then I am accused to be unscientifical? It's only yours the conflict of interests.

dsm
06-12-2018, 07:16 AM
That is stupid. It's exactly the same argument as the OIT: too numerous, too civilized to have been conquered.

May I remember you that History is full of such conquests? You know what happened to the Roman Empire, right?

The Balkans Neolithic Cultures (the so-called Danubian Culture or even Civilization) were even brighter (to a large scale) than the ones of Iberia, France or Italy. Did it change anything? No, Steppe invasion happened in the Balkans, even if the genetic impact was lower.

Please can we cut out personal critiques ("that is stupid") as it does nothing improve the debate.

Cheers Doug
PS - I usually enjoy the quality of your posts.

dsm
06-12-2018, 07:28 AM
If some day our great french antisteppist guru Jean-Paul Demoule reads GASKA, I'm quite sure he will fall in love.

So what are you really saying (emoting)?. To us all?.

Just stick to facts and let us viewers judge them (as best we are able). Offering predjudicial comments is pure grandstanding for camp followers

(PS I mostly like what you have to say, but you failed this time - only a minor hiccup I am sure. but please keep up your intelligent and factual posts that you are known here for).

dsm
06-12-2018, 07:47 AM
It's irrefutable.

Amen amen.

Am sure that the evidence is so obvious that this post is not even needed. For my part, I remain mystified as to why L51-L11 dissapeared (so to Speak) while Z2103 peoples were living it up around Asia and the Panonian Plains plus other parts of middle Europe. The pattern of regular mutations can be seen, the time frame matches, but where did L51 go into hiding on the way out of the Steppes. Once we trace L51 from the Steppes, I am sure the arguments about P312 will fall into place.

As to P312 and U106. The best I have seen was Richard Roccas diagram showing the ancient divide between P312 and U106 burials. A very clear line. And of course what we are seeing with Eastern Bell Beakers and P312.

While the batttle rages over P312 (and U106) places of likely origin, we S1194 folk (parallel clade to P312 and U106) keep wondering why our line appears to have hidden in the cellars of Europe for 2000 years before poping up around Roman times somewhere near the Sth Baltic. We appear to have the SNP mutation rate that matches P312 and U106. But, we are perhaps 1% of the population in most P312 and U106 dominant countries.

So much still to be discovered.

PS why do we S1194 wonder where we fit in. Look at it this way, who were the people who founded the worlds most powerful (currently) super power?. That group included and were as much led by the Adams line including the 2nd and the 6th US Presidents, and a cousin Samuel Adams who led the Boston Tea Party revolt and contributed to the creation of the USA. And these comments come from someone (myself) who is not an American. These pivotal people were all S1194.. Not insignificant figures in world history. just google 1) President John Adams. 2) President John Quincy Adams. And 3) us statesman Samuel Adams.

GASKA
06-12-2018, 08:22 AM
as for point 1 I agree with you it seems the most serious blow you can find against his theory. As for the others I do not know very well the topic .
but to play the devil's advocate I do not think a language can be correlated perfectly with a genetic family. I think it is more complicated.
and also it is strange that we have from the steppe the same source population ( steppe autosomal) that expanded west ( r1a and R1b) without mixing ( even a bit) .....I find this thing pretty stunning like that in reality they came from opposite direction. To me the steppe hypothesis is not convincing yet....I think at the end with more careful examination.( who suspected until some months ago that EEF made it to Samara)..with more samples ( Hittites and central and southern italy Bronze age) the role of the farmers in the birth of PIE will be fully recognized. Maybe PIE was like the formation of modern english ( a mix of norman french and old saxon. A mix between farmers and steppe language probably inside Sredni Stog.
We'll see what happens!

Totally agree with you, currently 800 million people in America, Asia and Africa and more than 200 million in Europe speak Indoeuropean languages because Rome decided to conquer Europe, and I don't believe that the Roman colonists and legionaries were an example of genetic uniformity. To think, that in Prehistory things were different, and to link a haplogroup to a language is too risky. You said it, time will tell us what happened.

ffoucart
06-12-2018, 08:36 AM
Please can we cut out personal critiques ("that is stupid") as it does nothing improve the debate.

Cheers Doug
PS - I usually enjoy the quality of your posts.

The idea is stupid, not the poster. Therefore it is not a personal attack, rather a feeling on the argument posted.

This is probably a bit harsh anyway, and I'm sorry if somebody is feeling offended. It was not intended.

etrusco
06-12-2018, 09:25 AM
Totally agree with you, currently 800 million people in America, Asia and Africa and more than 200 million in Europe speak Indoeuropean languages because Rome decided to conquer Europe, and I don't believe that the Roman colonists and legionaries were an example of genetic uniformity. To think, that in Prehistory things were different, and to link a haplogroup to a language is too risky. You said it, time will tell us what happened.

Yes I agree even tough we should remember that Gauls in France, and Celtiberian in Spain already spoke languages much related with italic ones. That made the spreading of latin so easy and so fast in those regions. I do not recall where I red that romans were stunned about a tribe in transalpine gaul ( probably on the atlantc facade of France) speaking a language very very close to latin but I may be wrong.
But the fact that in Asia, Africa and America so many people speak a language related to Rome has nothing to do with Rome at the end. It is a credit to France Spain and Portugal not to Rome.
I sometimes think that to the figure of 800 millions we should add the english speaking population. After all isn't english a norman french dialect with some saxon words related to ordinary life inside? ( too inflammatory?) To the credit of William the Conqueror one of the most successful guy in world history. To my francophone friends with no ethno bias intended to the british ( a country and a culture I'm really in love with) here's a video.....I think the girl is a canadian french!

https://youtu.be/4uUDlhYCK4Y

a more professional one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bc6SjnK0ac

GASKA
06-12-2018, 09:28 AM
It's irrefutable.

I hope that the previous discussion about the southern chalcolithic cultures, and the origin of BB culture, will help people to understand that the history of R1b in Spain or Italy can not be explained in the same way as in France or the British islands. If we talk about genetics, obviusly it seems that R1b has its origin in the steppes as indicated by autosomal dna. Regarding haplogroup Y , I suppose we will all agree, that P312 has it current origin in Germany-France (Osterhofen-Sierentz...), and therefore, as long as the ancient dna doesn't say otherwise we have to forget about the steppes.

Regarding mitochondrial haplogroups, that I suppose will also count when it comes to studying migrations and autosomal percentages, it turns out, that despite Olalde et al..prestigious German, British and Swiss geneticits see history in another way. I suppose someone will be interested in reading these papers.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257640803_Ancient_DNA_Reveals_Key_Stages_in_the_Fo rmation_of_Central_European_Mitochondrial_Genetic_ Diversity

https://archive-ouverte.unige.ch/unige:12659

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2656

http://biology-web.nmsu.edu/~houde/1-s2.0-S004724841400253X-main.pdf

ffoucart
06-12-2018, 09:45 AM
Totally agree with you, currently 800 million people in America, Asia and Africa and more than 200 million in Europe speak Indoeuropean languages because Rome decided to conquer Europe, and I don't believe that the Roman colonists and legionaries were an example of genetic uniformity. To think, that in Prehistory things were different, and to link a haplogroup to a language is too risky. You said it, time will tell us what happened.

There is a big difference between Prehistory and History: writing.

When Romans imposed Latin or Hittites their language, they made it trough administration and writing. A written language has a huge advantage on non-written language, and is far more easy to learn and to use.

In that prospect, cultural dominance is not always sign of a huge-scale migration.

But during prehistory, writing didn't existed, and language couldn't be imposed through admistration and writing. So, language changed using another way. It is postulated it changed with culture. So a cultural change could mean a change of language.

There are two possibilies when we see a cultural change (excepted by local evolution):
- by transmission from another culture, with adoption of some cultural traits (it's Cultural Diffusion).
-by migration from another culture, with changes in the population (it's Demic Diffusion).

In Prehistory, from decades, Cultural Diffusion was the main explanation in academic works, till ancient DNA became available. When it became clear that farming diffused in Europe by migration of a very specific population, from Mediterranean Sea to Sweden, and shortly after (Haak et al.) that there was a big migration from the Steppe 5000 years ago, Demic Diffusion became the main explanation for Cultural (including linguistic) changes.

Due to aDNA, we have now a clearer view on the past, were Cultural Diffusion is an exception, and where Demic Diffusion is the norm.

BBs are at the center of this evolution, as after a first phase of Cultural Diffusion from Iberia (contested by some), a second phase is showing Demic Diffusion from Central Europe, itself seen as a secondary wave of expansion from the Steppe as this second wave is made of Steppe admixed individuals, and we found this specific admixture everywhere in Western Europe afterwards (at least in BBs derived populations).

That's why Hittites and other Anatolian IE are so difficult to deal with from a genetic point of view: we are no more in Prehistory. With them we are dealing with History, a structurated state, with central administration, writings and so on.

anglesqueville
06-12-2018, 09:52 AM
So what are you really saying (emoting)?. To us all?.

Just stick to facts and let us viewers judge them (as best we are able). Offering predjudicial comments is pure grandstanding for camp followers

(PS I mostly like what you have to say, but you failed this time - only a minor hiccup I am sure. but please keep up your intelligent and factual posts that you are known here for).

Are you familiar with Demoule's texts? Are you familiar with the "anti-steppist" inquisition, do you know how it still rules most part of french archeology, french university and french edition? Do you know that because of this anti-steppist domination the analysis of ancient DNA is here currently running 20 years late? These are also facts, and fact as well is the intellectual terrorism of the supporters of the iberic BB dogma, which weighed on european ancient history til the very recent years. Sorry, but when I see that the user GASKA uses to write "we" instead of "I", I guess that behind this user there is in fact something related with this inquisition and this intellectual terrorism. And I cannot, I want not to forget stuffs like this one: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2018/03/a-bit-of-satire.html . I wrote two sarcastical lines? Yes, and I don't apologize for them.

etrusco
06-12-2018, 09:53 AM
@anglophones

just to be fair and more balanced! Maybe you can try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

Apologize for being off topic but at least we are dealing with Bell Beaker related languages....

jdean
06-12-2018, 10:05 AM
@anglophones

just to be fair and more balanced! Maybe you can try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIo-17SIkws

Apologize for being off topic but at least we are talking with Bell Beaker languages....


Play hell with our humor though : )

ffoucart
06-12-2018, 10:06 AM
I hope that the previous discussion about the southern chalcolithic cultures, and the origin of BB culture, will help people to understand that the history of R1b in Spain or Italy can not be explained in the same way as in France or the British islands. If we talk about genetics, obviusly it seems that R1b has its origin in the steppes as indicated by autosomal dna. Regarding haplogroup Y , I suppose we will all agree, that P312 has it current origin in Germany-France (Osterhofen-Sierentz...), and therefore, as long as the ancient dna doesn't say otherwise we have to forget about the steppes.

No, we can't be agree. Firstly because you are oblivious of autosomal DNA connected to P312: you don't have P312 without some level of autosomal Steppe Admixture. Secondly because older subclades above P312 are found in the Steppe, nowhere else. There is therefore a direct link between P312 and the Pontic Steppe.

And obviously, given that DF27 and U152 are subclades of P312, also found in France and Germany, it is likely they diffused from there to Italy and Iberia. In the same way as other L51 subclades were diffused on other parts of Europe, like L21 probably along the Rhine to the Brisish Isles, and U106 to the North. Always connected with diffusion of autosomal Steppe Admixture.


Regarding mitochondrial haplogroups, that I suppose will also count when it comes to studying migrations and autosomal percentages, it turns out, that despite Olalde et al..prestigious German, British and Swiss geneticits see history in another way. I suppose someone will be interested in reading these papers.


You are citing old papers, with a very limited number of ancient samples (if any). Olalde et al. published in 2017, and had access to hundreds of samples. He is obviously far more accurate, as he had far more information at hand.

By the way, it was already explained to you that a dramatic sex-bias is appearing from all the data we have. So using only mitochondrial haplogroups will lend you to an erroneous conclusion. If you want to evaluate the level of admixture derived from migration, you need to use autosomal DNA, and autosomal DNA alone. Uniparental markers are too biased.

etrusco
06-12-2018, 10:47 AM
@all

a new blog worth reading:

https://populationgenomics.blog/

for all interested also this one:


https://adnaera.com/

GASKA
06-12-2018, 11:37 AM
There is a big difference between Prehistory and History: writing.

When Romans imposed Latin or Hittites their language, they made it trough administration and writing. A written language has a huge advantage on non-written language, and is far more easy to learn and to use.

In that prospect, cultural dominance is not always sign of a huge-scale migration.

But during prehistory, writing didn't existed, and language couldn't be imposed through admistration and writing. So, language changed using another way. It is postulated it changed with culture. So a cultural change could mean a change of language.

There are two possibilies when we see a cultural change (excepted by local evolution):
- by transmission from another culture, with adoption of some cultural traits (it's Cultural Diffusion).
-by migration from another culture, with changes in the population (it's Demic Diffusion).

In Prehistory, from decades, Cultural Diffusion was the main explanation in academic works, till ancient DNA became available. When it became clear that farming diffused in Europe by migration of a very specific population, from Mediterranean Sea to Sweden, and shortly after (Haak et al.) that there was a big migration from the Steppe 5000 years ago, Demic Diffusion became the main explanation for Cultural (including linguistic) changes.

Due to aDNA, we have now a clearer view on the past, were Cultural Diffusion is an exception, and where Demic Diffusion is the norm.

BBs are at the center of this evolution, as after a first phase of Cultural Diffusion from Iberia (contested by some), a second phase is showing Demic Diffusion from Central Europe, itself seen as a secondary wave of expansion from the Steppe as this second wave is made of Steppe admixed individuals, and we found this specific admixture everywhere in Western Europe afterwards (at least in BBs derived populations).

That's why Hittites and other Anatolian IE are so difficult to deal with from a genetic point of view: we are no more in Prehistory. With them we are dealing with History, a structurated state, with central administration, writings and so on.

I think, I've said four times (reread my posts) that from my point of view, language is the only aspect of a culture that needs population movements to spread. ERGO Demic difussion is the best argument to explain the diffusion of a language. In fact, you will have seen that in the example I refer to the diffusion of Latin thanks to the Roman legionaries and settlers (population movements no?). So we agree. What I don't agree is in the hypothetical genetic uniformity of the populations that spread those languages as the above example clearly demonstrate, because I suppose you don't believe that the Roman legionaries all belong to the same Haplogroup Y no?

In the case of BB culture we have cultural difussion towards the north and demic difussion towards the south. I think so too, since at the moment, R1b (BB culture) is much more numerous in Central Europe than in Iberia.

I'm glad you didn't want to offend anyone, when you considered my idea "stupid". Among other things, because you were totally wrong. As you have seen I didn't deny the possibility that an inferior culture conquer a superior, but simply Stated that this was not produced in Spain as archaelogy has shown. We all have to try not to put words (or ideas) in the mouth of other people that they have not said

rms2
06-12-2018, 11:42 AM
. . . To think, that in Prehistory things were different, and to link a haplogroup to a language is too risky. You said it, time will tell us what happened.

Time has already told, but one has to pay attention. Here's what it had to say, from page 1 of Olalde et al:



The Y-chromosome composition of Beaker-complex-associated males was dominated by R1b-M269 (Supplementary Table 4), which is a lineage associated with the arrival of steppe migrants in central Europe after 3000 bc2,3. Outside Iberia, this lineage was present in 84 out of 90 analysed males. For individuals for whom we determined the R1b-M269 subtype (n = 60), we found that all but two had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today14.


We're not making this stuff up or speculating, like we did back in 2007 when all we had to work with was modern dna, STR haplotypes, and Ysearch.

Now I suppose one could argue that Kurgan Bell Beaker had nothing to do with the spread of early Indo-European, but he can't really argue that there wasn't a particular haplogroup overwhelmingly associated with it.

Note: I know I posted that quote from Olalde et al already a few posts back, but apparently it was missed, because we still have people saying "time will tell" and that linking a haplogroup to a language is too risky, etc.

GASKA
06-12-2018, 11:58 AM
No, we can't be agree. Firstly because you are oblivious of autosomal DNA connected to P312: you don't have P312 without some level of autosomal Steppe Admixture. Secondly because older subclades above P312 are found in the Steppe, nowhere else. There is therefore a direct link between P312 and the Pontic Steppe.

And obviously, given that DF27 and U152 are subclades of P312, also found in France and Germany, it is likely they diffused from there to Italy and Iberia. In the same way as other L51 subclades were diffused on other parts of Europe, like L21 probably along the Rhine to the Brisish Isles, and U106 to the North. Always connected with diffusion of autosomal Steppe Admixture.



You are citing old papers, with a very limited number of ancient samples (if any). Olalde et al. published in 2017, and had access to hundreds of samples. He is obviously far more accurate, as he had far more information at hand.

By the way, it was already explained to you that a dramatic sex-bias is appearing from all the data we have. So using only mitochondrial haplogroups will lend you to an erroneous conclusion. If you want to evaluate the level of admixture derived from migration, you need to use autosomal DNA, and autosomal DNA alone. Uniparental markers are too biased.

When you find P312 in the steppes (ancient dna), you can affirm its steppe origin, meanwhile its origin is Central European. The direct link between P312 and the steppes it's only a respectable opinion.

By the way, using only Y-haplogroups will lend you to an erroneus conclusion. Remember that in Olalde's paper a good percentage of German BBs were not born in those lands. Do you Know where they were born?.

I have cited those papers for people to see the difference of criteria, because in fact I have said 3 times that I think the link between Central Europe and Iberia are the Bernburg and Baalberge cultures (PRE 2.600 B.C). Only if we have more ancient dna in Iberia, can we confirm some theories or others.

rms2
06-12-2018, 12:09 PM
Ahem . . . We don't really have P312* in Central Europe. P312 might be as far as Olalde et al were able to go with many of the samples, but the fact that the oldest of them was already derived for L2 tells us that the "P312" of Central European Bell Beaker was already well developed. Also in Britain one already finds DF13 (downstream of Z290 and L21) in the mid to late third millennium BC.

So we have to back up in time to look for P312 itself.

What clues do we have? Steppe dna for one thing, and a pretty obviously Yamnaya-derived culture (Kurgan Bell Beaker) for another.

So the preponderance of the evidence actually points to the steppe, not Central Europe, as the birthplace of P312.

If Alexei Butin was accurate in reporting what he heard back in January, we may have news of P312 in Khvalynsk shortly.

GASKA
06-12-2018, 12:24 PM
Are you familiar with Demoule's texts? Are you familiar with the "anti-steppist" inquisition, do you know how it still rules most part of french archeology, french university and french edition? Do you know that because of this anti-steppist domination the analysis of ancient DNA is here currently running 20 years late? These are also facts, and fact as well is the intellectual terrorism of the supporters of the iberic BB dogma, which weighed on european ancient history til the very recent years. Sorry, but when I see that the user GASKA uses to write "we" instead of "I", I guess that behind this user there is in fact something related with this inquisition and this intellectual terrorism. And I cannot, I want not to forget stuffs like this one: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2018/03/a-bit-of-satire.html . I wrote two sarcastical lines? Yes, and I don't apologize for them.

I hope that I am not also to blame for the delay of France in DNA stuff. I think the "anti-sttepist inquisition" will be very happy with the propaganda you are doing. I had No idea who this man was (maju?) and now I Know him, anyway he may be more Known abroad than in Spain.

Write "we" instead "I", has a very simple explanation, you don't have to look for "anti-sttepist" conspiracies. Many people when they speak in Spanish preferably use "I" (singular), better than "we" (plural) for a question of education, precisaly to not seem egocentric. I.... I.... I.... So don't worry because it's just an idiomatic custom.

GASKA
06-12-2018, 12:33 PM
Sorry, obviously preferably use "we" (like me), than "I" , just an idiomatic custom

jdean
06-12-2018, 01:22 PM
Sorry, obviously preferably use "we" (like me), than "I" , just an idiomatic custom

Ah, like 'we are not amused' : )

R.Rocca
06-12-2018, 01:46 PM
I hope that the previous discussion about the southern chalcolithic cultures, and the origin of BB culture, will help people to understand that the history of R1b in Spain or Italy can not be explained in the same way as in France or the British islands. If we talk about genetics, obviusly it seems that R1b has its origin in the steppes as indicated by autosomal dna. Regarding haplogroup Y , I suppose we will all agree, that P312 has it current origin in Germany-France (Osterhofen-Sierentz...), and therefore, as long as the ancient dna doesn't say otherwise we have to forget about the steppes.

Olalde has made it clear that P312/steppe ancestry in Spain and Italy does indeed have a different history than in Central Europe and Britain because there were already pastoralist Copper Age societies in Spain and Italy... and the same applies to the Balkans and Hungary. That is why we are likely to see mixed non-P312 samples to the south of the Danube.

etrusco
06-12-2018, 02:11 PM
Olalde has made it clear that P312/steppe ancestry in Spain and Italy does indeed have a different history than in Central Europe and Britain because there were already pastoralist Copper Age societies in Spain and Italy... and the same applies to the Balkans and Hungary. That is why we are likely to see mixed non-P312 samples to the south of the Danube.

precisely what Olade's paper tells in this regard is to be coupled with the two previously quoted Jeunesse's papers.
Jeunesse's thesis IIRC is that in southern europe ( west mediterranean: italy-southern france and iberia) warrior ideology, antrophomorphic stelae and warrior kit ( steppe "package" to sum up) and probably even IE languages arrived 400/500 years before the demic diffusion of KBB culture with P-312 and U-106.
So cultural diffusion of IE with an elite dominance in southern europe and a demic diffusion of IE in central northern europe.

That is why Remedello could be (could) the right culture at the right place, at the right time to be the "platform" on which a steppic clan could jump and trigger the R1b explosion that we can see in the data so far. We have only three samples from the po valley that had always quite a sizable population compered to other regions of europe.
On the opposite of this we can say that northern italy probably back then had more EEF than EEF + WHG that is the mix required for the farmers admixture with KBB.
We'll see what happens with the new samples from Reich of neolithic and bronze age Italy.

R.Rocca
06-12-2018, 02:21 PM
precisely what Olade's paper tells in this regard is to be coupled with the two previously quoted Jeunesse's papers.
Jeunesse's thesis IIRC is that in southern europe ( west mediterranean: italy-southern france and iberia) warrior ideology, antrophomorphic stelae and warrior kit ( steppe "package" to sum up) and probably even IE languages arrived 400/500 years before the demic diffusion of KBB culture with P-312 and U-106.
So cultural diffusion of IE with an elite dominance in southern europe and a demic diffusion of IE in central northern europe.

More like a "delayed" demic diffusion as by the Middle Bronze age, male lineages like I2a1, I2a2 and G2a likely dwindled considerably in North-Central Italy, Southern France and Iberia.

I'm impatiently waiting to see if J2/CHG arrived in S.Italy and Sicily with something as early as the Copper Age Gaudo Culture. It might explain some of the CHG (without EHG) found in Remedello and Otzi.

GoldenHind
06-12-2018, 06:18 PM
After all isn't english a norman french dialect with some saxon words related to ordinary life inside? ( too inflammatory?) To the credit of William the Conqueror one of the most successful guy in world history.



That is incorrect. English is classified as a West Germanic language, like German, Dutch and Flemish. The language it is most similar to is Frisian. You have it the wrong way round. It is basically a Germanic language with a large number of words of French origin introduced by the Normans. However it is a direct descendant of Old English, a purely Germanic language, and not of Norman French. The majority of words most frequentnly used in English are of Germanic and not French origin.

jdean
06-12-2018, 06:30 PM
That is incorrect. English is classified as a West Germanic language, like German, Dutch and Flemish. The language it is most similar to is Frisian. You have it the wrong way round. It is basically a Germanic language with a large number of words of French origin introduced by the Normans. However it is a direct descendant of Old English, a purely Germanic language, and not of Norman French. The majority of words most frequentnly used in English are of Germanic and not French origin.

To be fair I think etrusco was pulling our English speaking legs : )

etrusco
06-12-2018, 07:18 PM
That is incorrect. English is classified as a West Germanic language, like German, Dutch and Flemish. The language it is most similar to is Frisian. You have it the wrong way round. It is basically a Germanic language with a large number of words of French origin introduced by the Normans. However it is a direct descendant of Old English, a purely Germanic language, and not of Norman French. The majority of words most frequentnly used in English are of Germanic and not French origin.

Oh yes .......I know very well the "official classification" of English as a west germanic language because genetically ( linguistically speaking) there's a continuity from proto-germanic to OE. I tend to look at the "substance" of things . Let me tell you this.....

If in English you want to speak about topics like
history-genetic-art-literature-economy-science of every kind- legal culture- linguistic- theology-philosophy-archeology-music-politics and on and on and on and on
you must use the "french" part of it.....agree?
English speaking people to express their culture have to use ( more than their germanic brothers) their "norman soul".
That is why I said that "substantially" (even tough not "officially) you can consider english a romance language with saxon terms for everyday life ( as you rightly pointed out in everyday life you speak saxon with a heavy influence from old norse BTW).
Am I saying something wrong?

anglesqueville
06-12-2018, 08:06 PM
Oh yes .......I know very well the "official classification" of English as a west germanic language because genetically ( linguistically speaking) there's a continuity from proto-germanic to OE. I tend to look at the "substance" of things . Let me tell you this.....

If in English you want to speak about topics like
history-genetic-art-literature-economy-science of every kind- legal culture- linguistic- theology-philosophy-archeology-music-politics and on and on and on and on
you must use the "french" part of it.....agree?
English speaking people to express their culture have to use ( more than their germanic brothers) their "norman soul".
That is why I said that "substantially" (even tough not "officially) you can consider english a romance language with saxon terms for everyday life ( as you rightly pointed out in everyday life you speak saxon with a heavy influence from old norse BTW).
Am I saying something wrong?

In my thought it's not right. English is in itself a theedish speech, since its bedrock ( bottom? ground?) is theedish. You could fathom an english speech with a 95% "roman" (*) word-hoad, it would still be a theedish speech, straight like japanese is not sino-thibetan, and will never be, even if one day all words rooted in the Yamatoba have been wiped out.
(*) could'nt find anything for this one, sorry.
Is it fullfilling? :behindsofa:

etrusco
06-12-2018, 08:16 PM
In my thought it's not right. English is in itself a theedish speech, since its bedrock ( bottom? ground?) is theedish. You could fathom an english speech with a 95% "roman" (*) word-hoad, it would still be a theedish speech, straight like japanese is not sino-thibetan, and will never be, even if one day all words rooted in the Yamatoba have been wiped out.
(*) could'nt find anything for this one, sorry.
Is it fullfilling? :behindsofa:

from a scientific linguistic point of view as I said you are perfectly right
but since you are "norman" it is not morally acceptable :boxing:

R.Rocca
06-12-2018, 08:20 PM
Many years ago there was a poster named Anatole Klyosov who theorized a Neolithic R-M269 migration through the Middle East > North Africa > Iberia. More recently, poster OlympusMons (since banned) was adamant about a similar migration but during the Late Neolithic. Obviously Anatole posted at a time before ancient DNA, but OlympusMons kept fighting against the ancient DNA. Anyway, Moroccan sample KEB.6 from Kelif el Boroud and dated to 3780-3650 BC was found to belong to haplogroup T-M184 as per this paper (thanks poster rozenfeld):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=413906&viewfull=1#post413906

This is what the authors had to say about the samples from the Kelif el Boroud site:


Finally, from K=2 to K=8, KEB samples composition is halfway between IAM and TOR, as
well as other Early Neolithic sample from Iberia and Chalcolithic samples from Europe.
Given the material culture excavated at KEB, it is highly likely that the non-IAM ancestry is
related to the expansion of Neolithic people from Iberia through the Mediterranean.

Of course, there was no "steppe" ancestry found in the Early nor Late Neolithic samples from Morocco nor Spain.

jdean
06-12-2018, 08:32 PM
English is in itself a theedish speech

A little help here please, what is theedish speech ?

etrusco
06-12-2018, 08:40 PM
A little help here please, what is theedish speech ?

I think it is a contracted form ( probably from a dutch dialect) of the word deutsch-dutch toutisk which basically means german

it stems from the celtic word TOUTA which means tribes so deutch= the language of the tribe/of the people in contrast with latin ( the language of the clergy etc..)

anglesqueville
06-12-2018, 09:07 PM
from a scientific linguistic point of view as I said you are perfectly right
but since you are "norman" it is not morally acceptable :boxing:

Haha! I'm a norman renegade: as I often told, for me Hastings is the victory of a band of mercenaries over an army of patriots. Btw I'm enthusiatic about the idea of an "anglish" language (perhaps because, as most of french, I never know how to pronounce those damned englo-roman words). Kudos for your interpretation of "theedish". Honnestly, I found it on http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_leaf .

anglesqueville
06-12-2018, 09:15 PM
Many years ago there was a poster named Anatole Klyosov who theorized a Neolithic R-M269 migration through the Middle East > North Africa > Iberia. More recently, poster OlympusMons (since banned) was adamant about a similar migration but during the Late Neolithic. Obviously Anatole posted at a time before ancient DNA, but OlympusMons kept fighting against the ancient DNA. Anyway, Moroccan sample KEB.6 from Kelif el Boroud and dated to 3780-3650 BC was found to belong to haplogroup T-M184 as per this paper (thanks poster rozenfeld):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?97-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News&p=413906&viewfull=1#post413906

This is what the authors had to say about the samples from the Kelif el Boroud site:



Of course, there was no "steppe" ancestry found in the Early nor Late Neolithic samples from Morocco nor Spain.

From Klyosov we got one good thing: the nice word "Arbins" for the bearers of R1b: https://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19567 . The rest is imo mostly bullshit: https://www.scirp.org/journal/articles.aspx?searchCode=Anatole+A.++Klyosov&searchField=authors&page=1

Kopfjäger
06-12-2018, 10:16 PM
From Klyosov we got one good thing: the nice word "Arbins" for the bearers of R1b

An example of an educated guy that says dopey things time-to-time...

EDIT: What the heck is "The Academy of DNA Genealogy"?

jdean
06-12-2018, 10:38 PM
An example of an educated guy that says dopey things time-to-time...

EDIT: What the heck is "The Academy of DNA Genealogy"?

From memory his own little foundation, or a place designed to give his thoughts more credence.

Didn't he also come up R1aryon or something like ?

rms2
06-12-2018, 10:41 PM
Last I heard, Klyosov believed that R1b indeed comprised the kurgans, but that the kurgans, including Yamnaya, were not Indo-European but Turkic speaking. Yep, you read that right.

Turkic World (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm)

rms2
06-12-2018, 10:56 PM
For me the issue Olalde et al settled was the idea that Bell Beaker and P312 emerged from Iberia, and that Bell Beaker spread from west to east. Olalde et al drove a stake through the heart of that idea and vindicated those few of us who over the last few years had been pointing out the differences between the alleged earliest BB people of Iberia and the Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

I remembered reading a number of authors, some of them quite a bit older, who pointed out that the BB people of Iberia differed substantially from BB people elsewhere, like Carleton Coon (The Races of Europe, page 150):



Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race.

rms2
06-12-2018, 11:31 PM
Last I heard, Klyosov believed that R1b indeed comprised the kurgans, but that the kurgans, including Yamnaya, were not Indo-European but Turkic speaking. Yep, you read that right.

Turkic World (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm)

One thing you can say for Klyosov. He wrote all that stuff back in 2010 and predicted that Yamnaya would be R1b five years before the first Yamnaya results came in. Too bad he went off the deep end with the Turkic thing, otherwise he might have been viewed as a genuine sage.

Kopfjäger
06-13-2018, 12:14 AM
One thing you can say for Klyosov. He wrote all that stuff back in 2010 and predicted that Yamnaya would be R1b five years before the first Yamnaya results came in. Too bad he went off the deep end with the Turkic thing, otherwise he might have been viewed as a genuine sage.

Yeah, looks like he's sticking to his guns with the whole R1b nonIE thing. I bet he feels pretty lonely though.

rms2
06-13-2018, 12:17 AM
Yeah, looks like he's sticking to his guns with the whole R1b nonIE thing. I bet he feels pretty lonely though.

He's missing the boat, too, because I think eventually R1a will show up in Yamnaya. IMHO, both Beaker and Corded Ware are Yamnaya offshoots.

dsm
06-13-2018, 12:21 AM
That is incorrect. English is classified as a West Germanic language, like German, Dutch and Flemish. The language it is most similar to is Frisian. You have it the wrong way round. It is basically a Germanic language with a large number of words of French origin introduced by the Normans. However it is a direct descendant of Old English, a purely Germanic language, and not of Norman French. The majority of words most frequentnly used in English are of Germanic and not French origin.

In support of GoldenHind's point. Old English is considered closest to Frisian. Most of us should agree that it was the Frisians from greater Friesland who added the dominant DNA (U106) to Jutland as the Jutes, Angles & West Saxons. All these tribes were considered related and spoke Ingvaeonic and collectively were called the Ingvaeones in some Roman histories. Linguistically even today North Netherlands Frisian bears striking similarity to Old and modern English such that certain conversations can be understood.

In England to hear how old English sentence structure operated, we can listen to old style South West Counties speech. A very very simple example ... "Who thee be", 'I be Tom, so who thee be', "oh I be Harry", 'Ohh arr, And where thee be from', "Oh Piddlehinton, I be from. Farmer Browns farm', "Arr, and I be from farmer Carter's farm. Down Piddletrenthide". etc: etc:

What happened to English after the Normans arrived was that for 300 years or so French was the language of the Court and the nobles and the common folk and peasants spoke Old English but up north (old Danelaw) with a good mix of Scandinavian, however, still showing traces of Old English in South West Counties that had less Scandinavian influence.

What really altered Old English was the work carried out in the 1500s to standardise English spellings and phonetics needed at a time the printing press began to appear. This was the era when French and Latin words really began to exert influence over the Frisian/Saxon & Scandinavian aspects in the then language. A simple but effective example highlighting the 'K' vs 'Ch' sounds - Kirk became Church (other than in the highlands of Scotland where saying Kirk carried on until recent times). March (sounded as Marc(h)) became Mar(ch) while some forms of Marc(h) became just Mark as in names vs verbs.

The French tendency to soften sharp sounds became very influential.

A very funny take on Old English & Frisian speaking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34


See this website for an excellent history that covers aspects of English language evolution ...
https://www.slideshare.net/achardin15/standardisation-of-the-english-language

EXTRACT

3. • Old English originated in 500AD when West Germanic invaders settled in the British Isles • Celtic speakers were pushed out to surrounding areas, leaving behind only a few Celtic words • Also influencing English at this time were Vikings, which introduced new north Germanic words • Old English survived until 1100AD when the most important event in the development and history of the English language occurred; The Norman Conquest

4. • Modern English now is generally derived from foreign words • Only one sixth of Old English words have descendants in today’s language • However, one half of the most commonly used words in our language today have old English roots • For example • Water • Be • Strong

5. • Middle English originated in 1066AD when the Duke of Normandy invaded and conquered England • This had a huge impact as the new overlords spoke a dialect of Old French with considerable Germanic roots in addition to basic Latin roots • In 1204 AD, King John lost the province of Normandy to the king of France, estranging Norman nobles of England even further from their French cousins • England became the chief concern of the nobility, as opposed to their estates in France • Consequently, the nobility adopted a modified English as their native tongue

6. • In 1349, the Black Death swept through England, killing about one third of its population • As a result, the labouring and merchant classes became more important to the economy and society and thus English grew in importance too • By 1362, the linguistic division between the nobility and commoners was largely over • The statue of pleading was adopted, making English the language of the courts and began to be used in Parliament • The most famous example of Middle English is Chaucer’s Canterbury tales • While still difficult to read, it can be read by modern English speakers
7. • Originated in 1500 through the revival of classical scholarship • Brought many classical Latin and Greek words into the vocabulary • Early modern English came to prominence due to two main factors • The Great Vowel Shift • Introduction of the printing press

8. • Change in pronunciation • Began 1400 • Vowel sounds began to be made further to the front of the mouth • The letter ‘e’ at the end of words became silent • Linguistically, the shift was relatively sudden, the major changes occurring within a century • Cannot say the shift is over yet, vowel sounds are still shortening – the change has slowed to a more gradual pace • For example; • Life was pronounced “leef” • Name was pronounced “nam-a” • Five was pronounced “feef” • Down was pronounced “doon”

9. • William Caxton brought the printing press to England in 1476 • As a result books became more affordable and thus literacy became more common • Publishing for the masses became a profitable enterprise, and works in English, as opposed to Latin, became more popular • The printing press brought standardisation to the English language • The dialect of London, where most publishing houses were located • Spelling and grammar became fixed • The first dictionary was published in 1604

And for good measure check out this Wikipedia entry as it is a fair summary of issues re Frisian/Old English ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages

ffoucart
06-13-2018, 06:27 AM
When you find P312 in the steppes (ancient dna), you can affirm its steppe origin, meanwhile its origin is Central European. The direct link between P312 and the steppes it's only a respectable opinion.

By the way, using only Y-haplogroups will lend you to an erroneus conclusion. Remember that in Olalde's paper a good percentage of German BBs were not born in those lands. Do you Know where they were born?.

I have cited those papers for people to see the difference of criteria, because in fact I have said 3 times that I think the link between Central Europe and Iberia are the Bernburg and Baalberge cultures (PRE 2.600 B.C). Only if we have more ancient dna in Iberia, can we confirm some theories or others.

Nice try, but as I said you must use autosomal DNA to detect a large scale migration. Here the presence of Steppe Admixture.

In fact, you have missed a paper published a while back about Central European BBs (don't have the reference at hand). They found patrilocality and female exogamy, females being from neighboring cultures. Among other things.
I don't know what you are aiming at with this point, but I don't see how it could be backing your claim.

Baalberge (a Funnel Beaker subgroup) could not explain the autosomal and Y signals.

P312 is from the Steppe, there is no real debate about this. And some P312 already existed in the early IIId millenium. L21 expanded with the Central European BBs from the Rhine to Scandinavia already around 2300BC. Obviously, it is meaning it existed from some times before.

etrusco
06-13-2018, 06:37 AM
In support of GoldenHind's point. Old English is considered closest to Frisian. Most of us should agree that it was the Frisians from greater Friesland who added the dominant DNA (U106) to Jutland as the Jutes, Angles & West Saxons. All these tribes were considered related and spoke Ingvaeonic and collectively were called the Ingvaeones in some Roman histories. Linguistically even today North Netherlands Frisian bears striking similarity to Old and modern English such that certain conversations can be understood.

In England to hear how old English sentence structure operated, we can listen to old style South West Counties speech. A very very simple example ... "Who thee be", 'I be Tom, so who thee be', "oh I be Harry", 'Ohh arr, And where thee be from', "Oh Piddlehinton, I be from. Farmer Browns farm', "Arr, and I be from farmer Carter's farm. Down Piddletrenthide". etc: etc:

What happened to English after the Normans arrived was that for 300 years or so French was the language of the Court and the nobles and the common folk and peasants spoke Old English but up north (old Danelaw) with a good mix of Scandinavian, however, still showing traces of Old English in South West Counties that had less Scandinavian influence.

What really altered Old English was the work carried out in the 1500s to standardise English spellings and phonetics needed at a time the printing press began to appear. This was the era when French and Latin words really began to exert influence over the Frisian/Saxon & Scandinavian aspects in the then language. A simple but effective example highlighting the 'K' vs 'Ch' sounds - Kirk became Church (other than in the highlands of Scotland where saying Kirk carried on until recent times). March (sounded as Marc(h)) became Mar(ch) while some forms of Marc(h) became just Mark as in names vs verbs.

The French tendency to soften sharp sounds became very influential.

A very funny take on Old English & Frisian speaking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34


See this website for an excellent history that covers aspects of English language evolution ...
https://www.slideshare.net/achardin15/standardisation-of-the-english-language

EXTRACT

3. • Old English originated in 500AD when West Germanic invaders settled in the British Isles • Celtic speakers were pushed out to surrounding areas, leaving behind only a few Celtic words • Also influencing English at this time were Vikings, which introduced new north Germanic words • Old English survived until 1100AD when the most important event in the development and history of the English language occurred; The Norman Conquest

4. • Modern English now is generally derived from foreign words • Only one sixth of Old English words have descendants in today’s language • However, one half of the most commonly used words in our language today have old English roots • For example • Water • Be • Strong

5. • Middle English originated in 1066AD when the Duke of Normandy invaded and conquered England • This had a huge impact as the new overlords spoke a dialect of Old French with considerable Germanic roots in addition to basic Latin roots • In 1204 AD, King John lost the province of Normandy to the king of France, estranging Norman nobles of England even further from their French cousins • England became the chief concern of the nobility, as opposed to their estates in France • Consequently, the nobility adopted a modified English as their native tongue

6. • In 1349, the Black Death swept through England, killing about one third of its population • As a result, the labouring and merchant classes became more important to the economy and society and thus English grew in importance too • By 1362, the linguistic division between the nobility and commoners was largely over • The statue of pleading was adopted, making English the language of the courts and began to be used in Parliament • The most famous example of Middle English is Chaucer’s Canterbury tales • While still difficult to read, it can be read by modern English speakers
7. • Originated in 1500 through the revival of classical scholarship • Brought many classical Latin and Greek words into the vocabulary • Early modern English came to prominence due to two main factors • The Great Vowel Shift • Introduction of the printing press

8. • Change in pronunciation • Began 1400 • Vowel sounds began to be made further to the front of the mouth • The letter ‘e’ at the end of words became silent • Linguistically, the shift was relatively sudden, the major changes occurring within a century • Cannot say the shift is over yet, vowel sounds are still shortening – the change has slowed to a more gradual pace • For example; • Life was pronounced “leef” • Name was pronounced “nam-a” • Five was pronounced “feef” • Down was pronounced “doon”

9. • William Caxton brought the printing press to England in 1476 • As a result books became more affordable and thus literacy became more common • Publishing for the masses became a profitable enterprise, and works in English, as opposed to Latin, became more popular • The printing press brought standardisation to the English language • The dialect of London, where most publishing houses were located • Spelling and grammar became fixed • The first dictionary was published in 1604

And for good measure check out this Wikipedia entry as it is a fair summary of issues re Frisian/Old English ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages



Thank you for the post it is very useful....anyway I did not question the "genetic" affiliation of English to the west germanic family I was speaking on a different level.....if you take away the french/latin/greek words from English, this language becomes that of basically an hunter-gather society. Unless you switch to anglish but it is not easy. Anyway the fact that english has this extraordinary proportion of foreign words it is the factor that helped to make it a world language and the first lingua franca on a global level. Using both saxon and french words gives english the opportunity to convey much more meaning and to express more subtly emotions and feeling ( like amical and friend ). However a few observations:

Probably there was already a sizable germanic speaking populations in England ( especially in the eastern part of the country) likely composed above all of germanic mercenaries ( many of them frisians). Not to forget that the belgian tribes that had occupied England ( again more in the eastern part of the country) are supposed to have spoken a mixed celto-germanic ( if not completely germanic) dialect. That would explain why britain so easily switched from Britonic to OE. Even tough this theory is not mainstream among the experts I find it pretty convincing and sound.

The main factor that gave English predominance over french in the middle age was above all the 100 years war. The fact that the norman/english nobility lost all the french possessions led to the birth of a more insular and inward looking in the ruling class in the isles and the realization that england and france were now two completely separate entity. That gave the fatal blow to french. Would england won that war I think french would slowly trickle down the social scale and became the language of the land ( very likely).

Let's not forget also the influence of celtic upon england. Again the famous linguist Schrijver thinks that OE is the result of a celtic population switching to a west germanic dialect. We a proof of this in the famous english use of the do interrogative form that is clearly a celtic feature.

anglesqueville
06-13-2018, 07:47 AM
He's missing the boat, too, because I think eventually R1a will show up in Yamnaya. IMHO, both Beaker and Corded Ware are Yamnaya offshoots.

IMHO (as well) it's undoubtable, including CWC, at least provided that one grants credit to autosomal analyses. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that it's the reason why Carlos Quiles questions the validity of autosomes: the indisputable close autosomal relatedness of CWC with Yamna. My guess is that eventually R1a will show up in BB (as a minor haplo), R1b in CWC (the same), and that Khvalynsk will more and more show up globally as a blend of R1a, R1b (plus Q, and perhaps some others) just like the 3 first samples tested. But, let's wait (dear prudence...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19E1JD_v9fI

GASKA
06-13-2018, 08:17 AM
For me the issue Olalde et al settled was the idea that Bell Beaker and P312 emerged from Iberia, and that Bell Beaker spread from west to east. Olalde et al drove a stake through the heart of that idea and vindicated those few of us who over the last few years had been pointing out the differences between the alleged earliest BB people of Iberia and the Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

I remembered reading a number of authors, some of them quite a bit older, who pointed out that the BB people of Iberia differed substantially from BB people elsewhere, like Carleton Coon (The Races of Europe, page 150):

It's a grossly mistake, Olalde has shown us the path we have to follow. Until now, we only Knew that the Bronze Age in Iberia (2.000-1.000 B.C), was absolutely full of R1b (Atlantic Bronze, Argar culture and culture of the Cogotas) and that ATP3 in the Portalón is R1b-M269. Olalde has given us 5 confirmed samples of P312 dated between 2.275-2.100 B.C). This already explain us that in the Bronze Age there were No Central-European migrations, but the haplogroup was completely developed in Iberia (2.000-1.000 BC)

In addition, the percentage of cases of P312 (almost 50%), ans its scarce steppe DNA, indicates a more important and ancient presence that we could think before. This percentage would still be higher if the 5 failed samples (ct and bt), were considered by experts as P312 due to their high percentage of steppe dna, then we would already be talking about 60% P312 in BB burials (remember that you open my eyes, to that possibility).

So now we have a percentage of R1b in th Iberian BBs burials geater than the Hungarian BBs, that are closed to the steppes than we are (incongruous indeed).

We Know what we are looking for and where we have to look for it, each BB site that is discovered is a surprise regarding burials, dates, fauna, diets, offerings, rituals, and our BB culture vision is continuosly changing. We Know perfectly the antiquity, variety and richness of this culture in Iberia and we know the poverty and marginality that it presents in Central Europe, so we have NO doubt that it has never been linked to a specific haplogroup, but it's a very interesting and complex cultural phenomenon.

You have mentioned what has changed the genetics in the last ten years, so imagine how it will change in the next ten years. Each paper is a novelty and each novelty makes us have to changes our approaches. I am convinced that P312 will continue appearing in Iberia (before 2.500 B.C), time will tell if I am right or not.

What worries me is that while many of us make speculations, professional geneticits (at least Spaniards) have to Know many more things than we do, and I don't understand why they don't publish many results. For example, we have been waiting years for the results of the culture of los Millares (3.300-2.500 BC), and the other day in the radio I heard a geneticist say that he has the explanation of the current genetic composition of the Spanish population, according to a mixture of typical Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups and Y-haplogroups from Russia (literally) ???????. The antiquity of those burials is higher than 2.500 BC, Which is that haplogroup from Russia? P312?, L11?

Everything is a mistery and I think that it's a consequence of a political practice that the North Americans have taught us- "Politically correct", people are afraid of offending minorities or publishing results or conclussions that may hurt sensitivities. It's very sad, I think the same thing happens in France.

Finn
06-13-2018, 08:37 AM
In support of GoldenHind's point. Old English is considered closest to Frisian. Most of us should agree that it was the Frisians from greater Friesland who added the dominant DNA (U106) to Jutland as the Jutes, Angles & West Saxons. All these tribes were considered related and spoke Ingvaeonic and collectively were called the Ingvaeones in some Roman histories. Linguistically even today North Netherlands Frisian bears striking similarity to Old and modern English such that certain conversations can be understood.


Partly true.

The Frisians did not join the A-S/Nordic amalgam stream in the fifth and sixth century to England, they (or in my case 'we') received also the A-S/Nordic invasion. Just like England.

This is the real cause of the affinity.

At the end of the Roman period the Frisian population was in a severe decline especially in nowadays province of Friesland (core area). If it was a totally or partly abandonment is still discussed...

The influx of the A-S/Nordic stream made the North Dutch definately Germanic. Before that there was in the outmost NE parts of the North Dutch influx of the Chauci.

Old English and Old Frisian resemble because they were bot languages of people with a Celtic kind of language acquiring German, at least according to Schrijver. This is at ease with the North Dutch archeology/history.

jdean
06-13-2018, 09:06 AM
ATP3 in the Portalón is R1b-M269

ATP3 is much discussed but only because he's used as an argument by a few for M269 in pre BA W. Europe, that sample is Swiss cheese and relying on it is an act of desperation.

ffoucart
06-13-2018, 09:18 AM
It's a grossly mistake, Olalde has shown us the path we have to follow. Until now, we only Knew that the Bronze Age in Iberia (2.000-1.000 B.C), was absolutely full of R1b (Atlantic Bronze, Argar culture and culture of the Cogotas) and that ATP3 in the Portalón is R1b-M269. Olalde has given us 5 confirmed samples of P312 dated between 2.275-2.100 B.C). This already explain us that in the Bronze Age there were No Central-European migrations, but the haplogroup was completely developed in Iberia (2.000-1.000 BC)

In addition, the percentage of cases of P312 (almost 50%), ans its scarce steppe DNA, indicates a more important and ancient presence that we could think before. This percentage would still be higher if the 5 failed samples (ct and bt), were considered by experts as P312 due to their high percentage of steppe dna, then we would already be talking about 60% P312 in BB burials (remember that you open my eyes, to that possibility).

So now we have a percentage of R1b in th Iberian BBs burials geater than the Hungarian BBs, that are closed to the steppes than we are (incongruous indeed).

We Know what we are looking for and where we have to look for it, each BB site that is discovered is a surprise regarding burials, dates, fauna, diets, offerings, rituals, and our BB culture vision is continuosly changing. We Know perfectly the antiquity, variety and richness of this culture in Iberia and we know the poverty and marginality that it presents in Central Europe, so we have NO doubt that it has never been linked to a specific haplogroup, but it's a very interesting and complex cultural phenomenon.

You have mentioned what has changed the genetics in the last ten years, so imagine how it will change in the next ten years. Each paper is a novelty and each novelty makes us have to changes our approaches. I am convinced that P312 will continue appearing in Iberia (before 2.500 B.C), time will tell if I am right or not.

What worries me is that while many of us make speculations, professional geneticits (at least Spaniards) have to Know many more things than we do, and I don't understand why they don't publish many results. For example, we have been waiting years for the results of the culture of los Millares (3.300-2.500 BC), and the other day in the radio I heard a geneticist say that he has the explanation of the current genetic composition of the Spanish population, according to a mixture of typical Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups and Y-haplogroups from Russia (literally) ???????. The antiquity of those burials is higher than 2.500 BC, Which is that haplogroup from Russia? P312?, L11?

Everything is a mistery and I think that it's a consequence of a political practice that the North Americans have taught us- "Politically correct", people are afraid of offending minorities or publishing results or conclussions that may hurt sensitivities. It's very sad, I think the same thing happens in France.

I think some of your post is directly aimed at me.

We have already enough data about R1b to know were we can find L23 and its subclades, and when, at least on a regional level. Iberia is out of the picture before 2500BC.

Anyway, I found the reference about patrilocality and female exogamy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28874531

And another one about sex-bias:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28223527

GASKA
06-13-2018, 09:28 AM
Nice try, but as I said you must use autosomal DNA to detect a large scale migration. Here the presence of Steppe Admixture.

In fact, you have missed a paper published a while back about Central European BBs (don't have the reference at hand). They found patrilocality and female exogamy, females being from neighboring cultures. Among other things.
I don't know what you are aiming at with this point, but I don't see how it could be backing your claim.

Baalberge (a Funnel Beaker subgroup) could not explain the autosomal and Y signals.

P312 is from the Steppe, there is no real debate about this. And some P312 already existed in the early IIId millenium. L21 expanded with the Central European BBs from the Rhine to Scandinavia already around 2300BC. Obviously, it is meaning it existed from some times before.

I hope you don't mind waiting for the results of burials to be published, so that we can value them. For the dates that we handle it doen'st have to be precisely Ballberge, may be Salzmunde or Bernburg. Undoubtedly men entered, but we don't Know who they were.

I have always admired people who have everything as clear as you seem to have it. I only look for solutions and for me P312 in the steppes is only a respectable hypothesis that I consider extremely difficult, among other things, because in Yamnaya has not been found L51 or L11, considering that culture ended 2.600 BC you don't have time to bring P312 from the steppes. But don't worry, if I am wrong, I will not hesitate to acknowledge it publicly, I hope you do the same otherwise.

I'm going to have to start studying how the autosomal is calculated, and try to understand why it has become a dogma for you.

etrusco
06-13-2018, 10:18 AM
rms2 said:

He's missing the boat, too, because I think eventually R1a will show up in Yamnaya. IMHO, both Beaker and Corded Ware are Yamnaya offshoots.


No way...... precisely because an R1a M-417 sample has already popped up in Sredni Stog culture some hundred years before Yamanaya. In the Same Sredni Stog culture we can find a mixing of farmers that quite matches the CWC set and besides we have corded pottery and presence of battle axes. So let us apply the Ockham razor here. The cradle of the CWC is in SS culture. Yamanaia itself is probably a blending of SS and Kvalinsk. So highly likely the scenario of SS being PIE homeland. Let's present the steppe theory in a coherent way please!

Generalissimo
06-13-2018, 10:27 AM
So let us apply the Ockham razor here. The cradle of the CWC is in SS culture. Yamanaia itself is probably a blending of SS and Kvalinsk. So highly likely the scenario of SS being PIE homeland. Let's present the steppe theory in a coherent way please!

OK, let's apply the "Ockham razor".

SS has R1a-M417 and SS contributed to the formation of Yamaya. So why would you be surprised by R1a-M417 in Yamnaya?

Anyway, I think some people here and elsewhere might be in for a bit of shock later this year when the Y-DNA results of some Yamnaya remains from Corded Ware-like burials in Ukraine are revealed.

etrusco
06-13-2018, 10:39 AM
OK, let's apply the "Ockham razor".

SS has R1a-M417 and SS contributed to the formation of Yamaya. So why would you be surprised by R1a-M417 in Yamnaya?

Anyway, I think some people here and elsewhere might be in for a bit of shock later this year when the Y-DNA results of some Yamnaya remains from Corded Ware-like burials in Ukraine are revealed.


I do not get you...... are we saying something different? Yes I will not be surprised at all....what's wrong with what I said?

rms2
06-13-2018, 10:50 AM
. . .

Old English and Old Frisian resemble because they were bot languages of people with a Celtic kind of language acquiring German, at least according to Schrijver. This is at ease with the North Dutch archeology/history.

Your claim that Schrijver says that is the only way I have ever heard that Old English and Old Frisian were the result of Celts learning German. Hogwash.

Finn
06-13-2018, 11:03 AM
Your claim that Schrijver says that is the only way I have ever heard that Old English and Old Frisian were the result of Celts learning German. Hogwash.

This is was I said exactly:


Old English and Old Frisian resemble because they were bot languages of people with a Celtic kind of language acquiring German, at least according to Schrijver


Sometimes someone has to be first...

And I know your opinion about Schrijver in this respect rms2 ;)

ffoucart
06-13-2018, 11:07 AM
OK, let's apply the "Ockham razor".

SS has R1a-M417 and SS contributed to the formation of Yamaya. So why would you be surprised by R1a-M417 in Yamnaya?

Anyway, I think some people here and elsewhere might be in for a bit of shock later this year when the Y-DNA results of some Yamnaya remains from Corded Ware-like burials in Ukraine are revealed.

By the way, do you have infos on the Yamnaya_Hungary samples from Wang et al.? They are cited as published but nothing yet.

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:14 AM
It's a grossly mistake, Olalde has shown us the path we have to follow.

I am left wondering if you have actually read the Olalde et al paper. There was no R1b-M269 or steppe dna in Iberia before the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people after about 2500 BC. All the R1b-M269 samples have steppe dna. None of the other males in Iberia do.



Until now, we only Knew that the Bronze Age in Iberia (2.000-1.000 B.C), was absolutely full of R1b (Atlantic Bronze, Argar culture and culture of the Cogotas) and that ATP3 in the Portalón is R1b-M269.

ATP3 was NOT R1b-M269. It was a bad sample whose y-dna haplogroup could not be determined with confidence, which is why the authors of the paper it appeared in would not assign it a haplogroup. The other samples from the same site were I2a, so it's likely that's what ATP3 was, but we'll never know. So scratch that one.

If ATP3 had been R1b-M269, one would think another R1b-M269 from that same period would have shown up by now in Iberia, but none has.



Olalde has given us 5 confirmed samples of P312 dated between 2.275-2.100 B.C). This already explain us that in the Bronze Age there were No Central-European migrations, but the haplogroup was completely developed in Iberia (2.000-1.000 BC)

Evidently there was migration into Iberia from Central Europe after around 2500 BC, because suddenly steppe dna and R1b-M269 show up where they didn't exist before. They did not just spring up out of the Iberian soil.

You said above that, "Olalde has shown us the path we have to follow." So follow that path, part of which is laid out on page 5:



In Iberia, the majority of Beaker-complex-associated individuals lacked steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, steppe-related ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker-complex associated individuals. However, the presence of steppe-related ancestry in some Iberian individuals demonstrates that gene flow into Iberia was not uncommon during this period.



. . .



What worries me is that while many of us make speculations, professional geneticits (at least Spaniards) have to Know many more things than we do, and I don't understand why they don't publish many results. For example, we have been waiting years for the results of the culture of los Millares (3.300-2.500 BC), and the other day in the radio I heard a geneticist say that he has the explanation of the current genetic composition of the Spanish population, according to a mixture of typical Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups and Y-haplogroups from Russia (literally) ???????. The antiquity of those burials is higher than 2.500 BC, Which is that haplogroup from Russia? P312?, L11?

. . .

Did he say Los Millares has y-dna haplogroups from Russia? I don't think so. That sounds like Carles Lalueza-Fox, and he says pretty much what Olalde et al said, and what Reich says about population replacement in Iberia in his new book, especially y-dna population replacement, that Kurgan Bell Beaker brought both steppe dna and R1b-M269 to Iberia, where neither was found before.

Finn
06-13-2018, 11:28 AM
By the way i didn't know the verb hogwash.....it sounds like the German "hochwasser" (high tide)....alarmbells for the North Dutch.... North Sea German acquiring Yankees....ROFLOL

GASKA
06-13-2018, 11:28 AM
ATP3 is much discussed but only because he's used as an argument by a few for M269 in pre BA W. Europe, that sample is Swiss cheese and relying on it is an act of desperation.

Sorry, you argue it, because it doesn't suit you, here in Spain nobody doubts it. We already know that it sample doesn't mean anything, but it opens us possibilities of research in similar sites. To constantly deny everithing that doesn`'t suit us is an anti-scientific behavior. Therefore never despair, only trust and dedication. Un saludo.

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:31 AM
By the way i didn't knwo the verb hogwash.....it sounds like the German "hochwasser" (high tide)....alarmbells for the North Dutch.... North Sea German acquiring Yankees....ROFLOL

I don't think Hochwasser is the right cognate in this case. "Hogwash" is kitchen slop fed to pigs.

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:37 AM
Sorry, you argue it, because it doesn't suit you, here in Spain nobody doubts it. We already know that it sample doesn't mean anything, but it opens us possibilities of research in similar sites. To constantly deny everithing that doesn`'t suit us is an anti-scientific behavior. Therefore never despair, only trust and dedication. Un saludo.

I think accepting that ATP3 was R1b-M269 is "anti-scientific behavior". It was a bad sample. Its y-dna haplogroup could not be determined with sufficient confidence. The authors of the paper in which it appeared would not assign it a y-dna haplogroup for that reason.

If you are confident R1b-M269 was in Iberia before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, then calmly await a good sample that will prove you right. Meanwhile, no such sample has come along.

Finn
06-13-2018, 11:48 AM
I don't think Hochwasser is the right cognate in this case. "Hogwash" is kitchen slop fed to pigs.

Oder Besserwesser, because which loud and clear verb or force term you use, that doesn’t mask that you have not been able to prove he is wrong.

Hoghwas is in my lower German "Schöddelwoater" (dish water) ;)

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:53 AM
Onder Besserwesser, because which loud and clear verb or force term you use, that doesn’t mask that you have not been able to prove he is wrong.

Hogwash is a noun. I don't have to prove Schrijver wrong, just as I don't have to prove Mario Alinei wrong. I am no linguist, but I am fairly well read, and I have never heard it said that Old English and Old Frisian were the consequence of Celtic people acquiring Germanic speech. In fact, it has been remarked on that one of the amazing things about English, given the history of Britain, is how little Celtic influence there was on it.

So, if Schrijver is the lone linguist making this claim, then it must be suspect, because evidently it's not the consensus.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 11:55 AM
I am left wondering if you have actually read the Olalde et al paper. There was no R1b-M269 or steppe dna in Iberia before the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people after about 2500 BC. All the R1b-M269 samples have steppe dna. None of the other males in Iberia do.



ATP3 was NOT R1b-M269. It was a bad sample whose y-dna haplogroup could not be determined with confidence, which is why the authors of the paper it appeared in would not assign it a haplogroup. The other samples from the same site were I2a, so it's likely that's what ATP3 was, but we'll never know. So scratch that one.

If ATP3 had been R1b-M269, one would think another R1b-M269 from that same period would have shown up by now in Iberia, but none has.



Evidently there was migration into Iberia from Central Europe after around 2500 BC, because suddenly steppe dna and R1b-M269 show up where they didn't exist before. They did not just spring up out of the Iberian soil.

You said above that, "Olalde has shown us the path we have to follow." So follow that path, part of which is laid out on page 5:




. . .



Did he say Los Millares has y-dna haplogroups from Russia? I don't think so. That sounds like Carles Lalueza-Fox, and he says pretty much what Olalde et al said, and what Reich says about population replacement in Iberia in his new book, especially y-dna population replacement, that Kurgan Bell Beaker brought both steppe dna and R1b-M269 to Iberia, where neither was found before.

I'll try to explain it again. In Spain there are more than 3.000 chalcolithic sites (30% of them with human remains). Do you Know how many Olalde has investigated ? 2, Caravaca and Cerdańola (20-30 individuals, I Don't remember now), SO WE HAVE 898 SITES TO INVESTIGATE. I know, you don't have ANY, but at least, let us do what we want with ours.

No KBB arrived in Iberia, among other things, because we don't ever Know what a KBB is, of course here in Europe (at least in Spain) nobody knows what it means. Could you send me a paper to know what you mean?

You can prove scientifically that ATP3 is not R1b-M269?

Yes, he said literally "Russian steppes", and that the skeleton had evidence of riding. I don't know his name. I'll find it, and I'll give you the link.

Finn
06-13-2018, 12:02 PM
Hogwash is a noun. I don't have to prove Schrijver wrong, just as I don't have to prove Mario Alinei wrong. I am no linguist, but I am fairly well read, and I have never heard it said that Old English and Old Frisian were the consequence of Celtic people acquiring Germanic speech. In fact, it has been remarked on that one of the amazing things about English, given the history of Britain, is how little Celtic influence there was on it.

So, if Schrijver is the lone linguist making this claim, then it must be suspect, because evidently it's not the consensus.

Ok clear. Never said it's consensus. But consensus doesn't equal wrong or not... And being a pionier either.
So IMO to early for such nouns.

Generalissimo
06-13-2018, 12:10 PM
By the way, do you have infos on the Yamnaya_Hungary samples from Wang et al.? They are cited as published but nothing yet.

No, I don't. I was surprised to see them revealed in that paper, because all I knew was just that such samples were being tested.

Anthony seems pretty sure that Corded Ware is an offshoot of Hungarian Yamnaya though, which does make me curious about what we'll see.

Corded Ware as an offshoot of Hungarian Yamnaya (Anthony 2017) (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/corded-ware-as-offshoot-of-hungarian.html)

rms2
06-13-2018, 12:12 PM
I'll try to explain it again. In Spain there are more than 3.000 chalcolithic sites (30% of them with human remains). Do you Know how many Olalde has investigated ? 2, Caravaca and Cerdańola (20-30 individuals, I Don't remember now), SO WE HAVE 898 SITES TO INVESTIGATE. I know, you don't have ANY, but at least, let us do what we want with ours.

Olalde and his team tested quite a few Iberian samples from the Neolithic predating Bell Beaker. None of them was R1b-M269 and none of them had steppe dna. The only Iberian Bell Beaker samples that had steppe dna were R1b-M269 and were dated to around 2500 BC and after (actually none was as old as 2500 BC).

In his new book, Reich says that both his lab and Dan Bradley's lab have independently tested Iberian samples, determined that, overall, the Iberian population was replaced to the tune of about 30%, and that on the y-dna side, the replacement was 90%. He specifically said the population doing the replacing had its source in Yamnaya. Reich based what he said on unpublished Iberian samples. In other words, these are samples in addition to those published in the Olalde et al paper.

If you are expecting all that to be overturned by some as-yet-unexplored site or sites, well, okay. Seems to me the handwriting is on the wall:
mene mene tekel upharsin.



No KBB arrived in Iberia, among other things, because we don't ever Know what a KBB is, of course here in Europe (at least in Spain) nobody knows what it means. Could you send me a paper to know what you mean?

Olalde et al, The Beaker Phenomenon and Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe.

Kurgan Bell Beaker people belonged to a culture derived from Yamnaya. When I get home I will explain further.



You can prove scientifically that ATP3 is not R1b-M269?

Can you prove it wasn't Q-M242? Or O-something?

That's the problem with ATP3: nobody knows to what y-dna haplogroup it belonged, because it wasn't a good sample.



Yes, he said literally "Russian steppes", and that the skeleton had evidence of riding. I don't know his name. I'll find it, and I'll give you the link.

Then he apparently isn't on your side.

Generalissimo
06-13-2018, 12:14 PM
You can prove scientifically that ATP3 is not R1b-M269?

But wait, ins't it on you to prove scientifically that it is R1b-M269?

GASKA
06-13-2018, 12:42 PM
Olalde and his team tested quite a few Iberian samples from the Neolithic predating Bell Beaker. None of them was R1b-M269 and none of them had steppe dna. The only Iberian Bell Beaker samples that had steppe dna were R1b-M269 and were dated to around 2500 BC and after (actually none was as old as 2500 BC).

In his new book, Reich says that both his lab and Dan Bradley's lab have independently tested Iberian samples, determined that, overall, the Iberian population was replaced to the tune of about 30%, and that on the y-dna side, the replacement was 90%. He specifically said the population doing the replacing had its source in Yamnaya. Reich based what he said on unpublished Iberian samples. In other words, these are samples in addition to those published in the Olalde et al paper.

If you are expecting all that to be overturned by some as-yet-unexplored site or sites, well, okay. Seems to me the handwriting is on the wall:
mene mene tekel upharsin.



Olalde et al, The Beaker Phenomenon and Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe.

Kurgan Bell Beaker people belonged to a culture derived from Yamnaya. When I get home I will explain further.



Can you prove it wasn't Q-M242? Or O-something?

That's the problem with ATP3: nobody knows to what y-dna haplogroup it belonged, because it wasn't a good sample.



Then he apparently isn't on your side.

It seems that you don't understand me.

1-Does not seem like a much more scientific behavior to wait until the number of sites investigated is much more numerous and therefor significant?
2.- Why are you in such a hurry?
3.- I hope Reich publishes those samples. Why don't made it?, Do you know when they are going to publish it? Do you know the dates of the samples analyzed?. We are very interested in knowing this information.
4.- Olalde talks about KBB? I'll have to reread his work again, because I had not noticed. I hope that he then publicly explain his Theory. Other geneticits think the same ?, And if so who are Reich?
5.- Could be in my side, depending on C14.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 12:58 PM
But wait, ins't it on you to prove scientifically that it is R1b-M269?

But wait,

ATP3 is R1b M269. If you don't agree or have doubts, ok, hire a professional geneticits and prove otherwise. We have already done our work.

Generalissimo
06-13-2018, 01:08 PM
But wait,

ATP3 is R1b M269. If you don't agree or have doubts, ok, hire a professional geneticits and prove otherwise. We have already done our work.

According to who or what?

jdean
06-13-2018, 01:13 PM
But wait,

ATP3 is R1b M269. If you don't agree or have doubts, ok, hire a professional geneticits and prove otherwise. We have already done our work.

So maybe yous could present the proof, should be interesting : )

GASKA
06-13-2018, 01:20 PM
So maybe yous could present the proof, should be interesting : )

What is going to be interesting is to see how you show the opposite. I am waiting for you to tell us

rms2
06-13-2018, 01:21 PM
It seems that you don't understand me.

It seems to me you don't understand.



1-Does not seem like a much more scientific behavior to wait until the number of sites investigated is much more numerous and therefor significant?
2.- Why are you in such a hurry?

Olalde et al tested "400 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 226 individuals associated with Beaker-complex artefacts". Not enough for you?

In addition to that, Reich and Bradley have unpublished Iberian samples. Based upon those, Reich made his statement about the 30% overall replacement of the Iberian population by people of steppe derivation, and a 90% replacement of native y-dna haplogroups by steppe y-dna haplogroups.

Do you honestly believe there are as-yet-unexamined sites in Iberia that will overturn all that?



3.- I hope Reich publishes those samples. Why don't made it?, Do you know when they are going to publish it? Do you know the dates of the samples analyzed?. We are very interested in knowing this information.

I hope so too. No, I don't know when he will publish them or what the exact dates are. I only know what he said about them.



4.- Olalde talks about KBB? I'll have to reread his work again, because I had not noticed. I hope that he then publicly explain his Theory. Other geneticits think the same ?, And if so who are Reich?

Olalde et al refer to Kurgan Bell Beaker as "non-Iberian Bell Beaker" and "Beaker outside Iberia".

Kurgan Bell Beaker refers to the steppe-derived Bell Beaker people who tended to be tall for the period, brachycephalic, and who buried their dead in single graves in pits under round burial mounds with a warrior's kit of weapons, etc.



5.- Could be in my side, depending on C14.

I did not think your side included a Russian steppe origin for P312.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 01:32 PM
According to who or what?

According to who or what can you say the opposite? I have already told that for us ATP3 doesn't mean much, because it's an isolated case, so if you prove us otherwise, we would calmly accept it, and continue searching.

Generalissimo
06-13-2018, 01:37 PM
According to who or what can you say the opposite? I have already told that for us ATP3 doesn't mean much, because it's an isolated case, so if you prove us otherwise, we would calmly accept it, and continue searching.

ATP3, just like most of humanity, doesn't belong to R1b-M269 unless proven otherwise, so prove it.

jdean
06-13-2018, 01:40 PM
What is going to be interesting is to see how you show the opposite. I am waiting for you to tell us

As already stated the sample is rubbish, confetti, swish cheese, etc etc.

Nobody can say what group it belonged to and yet it keeps getting brought up time and time again, the only thing that I can say about this sample is the only people who keep mentioning it are those trying to disprove the Steppe theory.

rms2
06-13-2018, 01:51 PM
According to who or what can you say the opposite? I have already told that for us ATP3 doesn't mean much, because it's an isolated case, so if you prove us otherwise, we would calmly accept it, and continue searching.

You do realize that there is no peer-reviewed scientific paper that says ATP3 is R1b-M269, right?

You know why that is, right?

In case you don't, it's because ATP3 was a sample with such low coverage and so many contradictory reads on the y chromosome that its y-dna haplogroup could not be determined.

Those who really want ATP3 to be M269 are convinced it is. But there is no way to know because it was a lousy sample.

rms2
06-13-2018, 01:52 PM
Please delete. Duplicate post.

MikeWhalen
06-13-2018, 01:58 PM
honestly folks, this thread has more lives than a ship load of cats

cats on the titanic, if you ask me

23942

just sayin

M

MikeWhalen
06-13-2018, 02:11 PM
can you guys actually see the 'cat' pic I attached to the above post?

my pic posts have been acting up the last week or so, and when I click on my above cat pic, it literally goes to the file folder on my computer that holds the pic instead of showing the actual pic

any feedback is helpful as this is a very weird intermittent type glitch I've been running into...

thanks and sorry for the minor derail

Mike

rms2
06-13-2018, 02:13 PM
can you guys actually see the 'cat' pic I attached to the above post?

my pic posts have been acting up the last week or so, and when I click on my above cat pic, it literally goes to the file folder on my computer that holds the pic instead of showing the actual pic

any feedback is helpful as this is a very weird intermittent type glitch I've been running into...

thanks and sorry for the minor derail

Mike

I see it when I click on it.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 02:15 PM
It seems to me you don't understand.



Olalde et al tested "400 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 226 individuals associated with Beaker-complex artefacts". Not enough for you?

In addition to that, Reich and Bradley have unpublished Iberian samples. Based upon those, Reich made his statement about the 30% overall replacement of the Iberian population by people of steppe derivation, and a 90% replacement of native y-dna haplogroups by steppe y-dna haplogroups.

Do you honestly believe there are as-yet-unexamined sites in Iberia that will overturn all that?



I hope so too. No, I don't know when he will publish them or what the exact dates are. I only know what he said about them.



Olalde et al refer to Kurgan Bell Beaker as "non-Iberian Bell Beaker" and "Beaker outside Iberia".

Kurgan Bell Beaker refers to the steppe-derived Bell Beaker people who tended to be tall for the period, brachycephalic, and who buried their dead in single graves in pits under round burial mounds with a warrior's kit of weapons, etc.



I did not think your side included a Russian steppe origin for P312.

1.- I don't know how many BB sites are available in other European countries, but for the number and quality of those in Spain, the samples analyzed are ridiculously scarce. So, first we will wait for the Reich samples, and then we will see the samples analyzed in Spain. I don't say that you wait, if for you it's enough, Ok, I only say that I prefer to be more cautious, because I know Iberian sites better than you.
2.- Then Olalde speak about "non Iberian BB" and "Beaker outside Iberia", doesn't use the term KBB, truth?.
3.- KBB are only R1b-P312, tall, brachycephalic, buried in mounds and with the complete kit of warriors? MAMMA MIA, surely in Iberia we will never find any. We are short, dolichocephalic, we bury ourselves were we can and for a long time we renounced our warrior spirit. No wonder you are in such a Hurry to differentiate the KBBs from the iberians. I have a curiosity, have you ever been in Spain?
4.- When I have time, I will review ALL the samples analyzed by Olalde, one by one, in ALL the countries, to see how many meets your requirements. And for you to see, that I have good intentions, instead of the complete warrior kit, I'll settle for having some object related to BB culture to consider it a KBB (including, women and children). I say it because of the poverty of the German burials (total 4 cooper objects), and also because the objects may have dissapeared because of grave robbers.
5.- My side is the truth and that is what we are looking for.

rms2
06-13-2018, 02:24 PM
I think maybe it's time to start ignoring you.

Someday perhaps geneticists will have tested all of the dead ever buried or deposited in Iberia, and you will be satisfied . . . but wait, I think even then you will claim they probably missed the one skeleton that would prove that you were right all along and that the Basques were the fount of European civilization.

etrusco
06-13-2018, 02:27 PM
@all

Worth reading

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2018/05/iberian-after-all-albertos-runs.html

@mike

I can see it

rms2
06-13-2018, 02:51 PM
That one (I2741) was I2a1a1 and had no steppe dna.

Anyway, not sure I trust that, because Olalde et al say, on page 4:



These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 02:58 PM
@all

Worth reading

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2018/05/iberian-after-all-albertos-runs.html

@mike

I can see it

That flag of the Cross of Burgundy (we say Cross of San Andrés, not Iniesta), is important for a Spaniard. Viva la Lombardia.

Romilius
06-13-2018, 04:23 PM
1.- I don't know how many BB sites are available in other European countries, but for the number and quality of those in Spain, the samples analyzed are ridiculously scarce. So, first we will wait for the Reich samples, and then we will see the samples analyzed in Spain. I don't say that you wait, if for you it's enough, Ok, I only say that I prefer to be more cautious, because I know Iberian sites better than you.
2.- Then Olalde speak about "non Iberian BB" and "Beaker outside Iberia", doesn't use the term KBB, truth?.
3.- KBB are only R1b-P312, tall, brachycephalic, buried in mounds and with the complete kit of warriors? MAMMA MIA, surely in Iberia we will never find any. We are short, dolichocephalic, we bury ourselves were we can and for a long time we renounced our warrior spirit. No wonder you are in such a Hurry to differentiate the KBBs from the iberians. I have a curiosity, have you ever been in Spain?
4.- When I have time, I will review ALL the samples analyzed by Olalde, one by one, in ALL the countries, to see how many meets your requirements. And for you to see, that I have good intentions, instead of the complete warrior kit, I'll settle for having some object related to BB culture to consider it a KBB (including, women and children). I say it because of the poverty of the German burials (total 4 cooper objects), and also because the objects may have dissapeared because of grave robbers.
5.- My side is the truth and that is what we are looking for.

The two statements in bold speak for yourself... I'm really astonished by your childish behaviour... we are speaking about samples of 5000 years ago and you take today Spaniards... I'm starting to think if you really can understand arguments suited for people who are at least older than 12 y.o.... but I reassure you: it seems you can't.

The last bolded statement is great: I saw much more serious and humble drunken people than you.

jdean
06-13-2018, 05:00 PM
have you ever been in Spain?

Whilst thinking of the stupidity of this question and contemplating a suitably sarcastic reply I looked down the table and noticed the Tio Pepe Fino En Rama I got today which made me smile, yeah hate Spain : )

GASKA
06-13-2018, 05:28 PM
We can star checking in Bavaria

1.- Landau an der Isar- 9 inhumations (2 double graves, 2 cremations).
RISE 562- Female, 12 bone buttons V perforations, cooper awl, 2 red painted bb, UNIQUE for Bavaria a thin recangular gold sheet.
Grave3- Double grave (2 children)- 2 undecorated vessels.
Grave 4- Adult woman- 2 undecorated vessels.
Grave 5- adult female- single undecorated handled vessel
Grave 7- Older adult woman- 8 v-drilled bone buttons, copper dagger, 3 undecorated vessels. Individual in grave 7 was born locally, while ALL others were migrants.

Augsburg- BB field- 22 graves (one of the largest cementeries in Bavaria)-9 males 5 females 2 chldren, 2 indeterminated

Grave 3- RISE560- Adult male, wristplate, 2 flint arrowheads, large red painted BB.
Grave 4-9-10-13-22- Details for this graves are not available. Isotopes on bone and tooth samples from 17 individuals- Grave 3 was born locally, graves 4-9-10-13 were migrants.

I don't want to bore you, but if you want we continue

rms2
06-13-2018, 05:43 PM
@all

Worth reading

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2018/05/iberian-after-all-albertos-runs.html

@mike

I can see it

I mentioned in a prior post that I don't trust that. If one reads the comments below it, he can see that "Alberto" is a big buddy of Olympus Mons, the crank famous for the wild Shulaveri-Shomu idea. Both are on Davidski's Banned Commentators List (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=banned).

I doubt the results especially since, as I mentioned before, Olalde et al concluded that there was no discernible Iberia-related ancestry in Bell Beaker outside Iberia (page 4).

So take "Alberto's Runs" for what that literally sounds like (some kind of diarrhea).

jdean
06-13-2018, 05:46 PM
I mentioned in a prior post that I don't trust that. If one reads the comments below it, he can see that "Alberto" is a big buddy of Olympus Mons, the crank famous for the wild Shulaveri-Shomu idea. Both are on Davidski's Banned Commentators List (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=banned).

I doubt the results especially since, as I mentioned before, Olalde et al concluded that there was no discernible Iberia-related ancestry in Bell Beaker outside Iberia (page 4).

So take "Alberto's Runs" for what that literally sounds like (some kind of diarrhea).

Banned from Eurogenes which says a lot.

lukaszM
06-13-2018, 05:49 PM
So take "Alberto's Runs" for what that literally sounds like (some kind of diarrhea).

I can't stop laughing:)))))))

Radboud
06-13-2018, 05:57 PM
I mentioned in a prior post that I don't trust that. If one reads the comments below it, he can see that "Alberto" is a big buddy of Olympus Mons, the crank famous for the wild Shulaveri-Shomu idea. Both are on Davidski's Banned Commentators List (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/search?q=banned).

I doubt the results especially since, as I mentioned before, Olalde et al concluded that there was no discernible Iberia-related ancestry in Bell Beaker outside Iberia (page 4).

So take "Alberto's Runs" for what that literally sounds like (some kind of diarrhea).

The user Rob has been also banned on Eurogenes, isn't Rob the banned AG user Gravetto-Danubian?

rms2
06-13-2018, 06:04 PM
The user Rob has been also banned on Eurogenes, isn't Rob the banned AG user Gravetto-Danubian?

I believe so.

jdean
06-13-2018, 06:10 PM
The user Rob has been also banned on Eurogenes, isn't Rob the banned AG user Gravetto-Danubian?

Most definitely.

Ümläüt
06-13-2018, 06:18 PM
The user Rob has been also banned on Eurogenes, isn't Rob the banned AG user Gravetto-Danubian?

Yes, he also has some other identities though he will usually deny this, as it would expose a lot of his rather idiosyncratic works and thoughts. Some years ago I asked him on Dienekes blog If he was a certain guy on Wikipedia and he denied it.
Funnily he later claimed authorship for a map that was posted in a Eurogenes comment. The author? That WP guy.

R.Rocca
06-13-2018, 06:25 PM
We can star checking in Bavaria

1.- Landau an der Isar- 9 inhumations (2 double graves, 2 cremations).
RISE 562- Female, 12 bone buttons V perforations, cooper awl, 2 red painted bb, UNIQUE for Bavaria a thin recangular gold sheet.
Grave3- Double grave (2 children)- 2 undecorated vessels.
Grave 4- Adult woman- 2 undecorated vessels.
Grave 5- adult female- single undecorated handled vessel
Grave 7- Older adult woman- 8 v-drilled bone buttons, copper dagger, 3 undecorated vessels. Individual in grave 7 was born locally, while ALL others were migrants.

Augsburg- BB field- 22 graves (one of the largest cementeries in Bavaria)-9 males 5 females 2 chldren, 2 indeterminated

Grave 3- RISE560- Adult male, wristplate, 2 flint arrowheads, large red painted BB.
Grave 4-9-10-13-22- Details for this graves are not available. Isotopes on bone and tooth samples from 17 individuals- Grave 3 was born locally, graves 4-9-10-13 were migrants.

I don't want to bore you, but if you want we continue

I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey with this post. Can you please clarity?

rms2
06-13-2018, 06:29 PM
I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey with this post. Can you please clarity?

I think he is trying to say that not every Kurgan Bell Beaker burial satisfies the classic Kurgan Bell Beaker model, especially with regard to the warrior's kit of weapons, etc.

I think he misses the point that that model is cumulative. It's not necessary for every last KBB burial to have every element of it.

R.Rocca
06-13-2018, 06:30 PM
Yes, he also has some other identities though he will usually deny this, as it would expose a lot of his rather idiosyncratic works and thoughts. Some years ago I asked him on Dienekes blog If he was a certain guy on Wikipedia and he denied it.
Funnily he later claimed authorship for a map that was posted in a Eurogenes comment. The author? That WP guy.

When discussing my father-in-law's haplogroup (I2a-M423) via private communication, Eurogenes Rob told me that he was Gravetto-Danubian on Anthrogenica. I don't know that he ever publicly denied it.

ADW_1981
06-13-2018, 06:32 PM
Yet another thought to ponder. FTDNA has the Ancient Origins feature. They use Steppe/Yamnya for the Bronze Age Invaders category. I am 12% Bronze Age Invader, 45% Hunter Gatherer and 43% Farmer. My YDNA is Bronze Age Invader, yet it only represents 12% of my whole makeup. Based on this I am assuming a male initiated movement into areas where they replaced at least every male at the top of the food chain, and some males in the middle. This would explain the discrepancy between the overall genetic input being low, but YDNA markers being high.

The FTDNA method is quite different from looking at a "Yamnaya Package". The 12% is just picking up a pure CHG-Iran-N signal, which is quite weak in north Europeans. This is why groups like south east Europeans and Ashkenazi jews for example score much higher in this category, despite the fact it's a completely different group from Yamnaya which had significant EHG (ubiquitous anywhere in modern Europe)

R.Rocca
06-13-2018, 06:35 PM
I think he is trying to say that not every Kurgan Bell Beaker burial satisfies the classic Kurgan Bell Beaker model, especially with regard to the warrior's kit of weapons, etc.

I think he misses the point that that model is cumulative. It's not necessary for every last KBB burial to have every element of it.

I hope that wasn't the point, considering that only male graves contained the male burial package (wristguards, boar's tusk pendants, copper daggers). Also, undecorated beakers are only common in Central Europe and even show up in some Corded Ware graves. The undecorated handled pitchers are of clear Danubian origin.

rms2
06-13-2018, 06:44 PM
I hope that wasn't the point, considering that only male graves contained the male burial package (wristgurds, boar's tusk pendants, copper daggers). Also, undecorated beakers are only common in Central Europe and even show up in some Corded Ware graves. The undecorated handled pitchers are of clear Danubian origin.

He could explain best (or maybe not), but I think that's it. He wants to show that KBB burials varied widely in order to attack the idea that there ever was Kurgan Bell Beaker, I guess.

jdean
06-13-2018, 06:46 PM
I hope that wasn't the point, considering that only male graves contained the male burial package (wristgurds, boar's tusk pendants, copper daggers). Also, undecorated beakers are only common in Central Europe and even show up in some Corded Ware graves. The undecorated handled pitchers are of clear Danubian origin.

I thought it was something to do with Rise620 being classified as R1, but then I've no idea what the point of mentioning Rise562 was ?

Oh well, doubt it's anything worth too much thought : )

ADW_1981
06-13-2018, 07:08 PM
I'll try to explain it again. In Spain there are more than 3.000 chalcolithic sites (30% of them with human remains). Do you Know how many Olalde has investigated ? 2, Caravaca and Cerdańola (20-30 individuals, I Don't remember now), SO WE HAVE 898 SITES TO INVESTIGATE. I know, you don't have ANY, but at least, let us do what we want with ours.


No need to be condescending.



You can prove scientifically that ATP3 is not R1b-M269?

Yes, he said literally "Russian steppes", and that the skeleton had evidence of riding. I don't know his name. I'll find it, and I'll give you the link.

rms2 raises a good point though. Why are you putting so much faith in something that was not reported in the actual study? Wouldn't a reasonable, logical person use solid, available evidence from the last 3-4 studies and form an opinion, rather than grasp onto a single sample that was not held in confidence?

etrusco
06-13-2018, 07:33 PM
rms2

So take "Alberto's Runs" for what that literally sounds like (some kind of diarrhea).





What's the meaning of name calling...... you just can say his theory is poorly supported. After all we are not dealing with metaphysical truths like 2+2=4. Topics we are talking about are not quite settled ( if they ever will..)

jdean

"Banned from Eurogenes which says a lot".


I took part in some discussions on Eurogenes and Alberto looked like a fine and non-aggressive person.
Today the moderator of that forum went after me on this thread only because.........I was agreeing with him!!!!
Alberto's new blog: adnaera.com.

alan
06-13-2018, 07:59 PM
This thread is about the earliest dates of the central European beaker group and it's pre beaker origins . Please no more stuff about Iberian beaker in this thread. If you want to talk about Iberian beaker start a thread on it.

etrusco
06-13-2018, 08:24 PM
This thread is about the earliest dates of the central European beaker group and it's pre beaker origins . Please no more stuff about Iberian beaker in this thread. If you want to talk about Iberian beaker start a thread on it.

If you are referring to Gaska I think that he's only questioning the sub-topic of central european pre-beaker origins. His ideas simply do not match with those of the majority of the other partakers in the discussion. I do not think he's off topic.

GASKA
06-13-2018, 10:06 PM
I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey with this post. Can you please clarity?

First tell you that, as you started this thread, If you think I should stop participating you just have to say it. I don't want to bother anyone.

rms2
06-13-2018, 10:40 PM
If you are referring to Gaska I think that he's only questioning the sub-topic of central european pre-beaker origins. His ideas simply do not match with those of the majority of the other partakers in the discussion. I do not think he's off topic.

He's been on the attack ever since he got here on behalf of the primacy of Iberia in the Bell Beaker/P312 story. That's not on-topic.

dsm
06-13-2018, 10:43 PM
First tell you that, as you started this thread, If you think I should stop participating you just have to say it. I don't want to bother anyone.

To all who have participated, thankyou. Speaking personally I have found the posts informative and helpful. I agree that we have hit a loop where one particular argument seems to be spinning its wheels and going nowhere. But, we all have to work out our own conclusions for ourselves.

My summary is that the case put forward by you GASKA, isn't really convincing (but I appreciate much of the information you have offered). However, an assesment of the presented evidence for P312 origin in Iberia doesn't stack up. It tends to come across as what someone wants to believe versus what the available evidence tells us. I believe RMS2 has made a strong case as to why such a conclusion is currently untenable and despite repeating crucial commentry from Reich (Olalde) , has been unable to get the actual message through.

However, we are all clearly waiting 'waiting with baited breath' for the next round of ancient burial data soon to be published.

To all who have participated, thanks for managing to keep the interaction civil (even if a bit shakey at times). Because, what ever views we hold on the matters raised, we learn best through being able to look at facts and details devoid of emotional attachment (unless a poster states that a particular view or issue is personal and has an emotional component).

Glad to see so many people getting interested in the issues associated with this thread. It sure has been interesting thus far. So to GASKA, I am suggesting that the P312 OOI theme has run its course for now & can be rested.

Thanks

D

rms2
06-13-2018, 10:47 PM
To all who have participated, thankyou . . .

I don't agree. I don't normally stop to thank my hemorrhoids for forcing me to stand up more often, so I don't feel thankful in this case either.

You are speaking entirely for yourself in this case.

I am tired of off-the-wall ethno-nationalists effing up what were once good threads.

MitchellSince1893
06-13-2018, 10:57 PM
This thread is about the earliest dates of the central European beaker group and it's pre beaker origins . Please no more stuff about Iberian beaker in this thread. If you want to talk about Iberian beaker start a thread on it.

Here here. Start another thread so this one stops being derailed.
:

dsm
06-13-2018, 11:06 PM
I don't agree. I don't normally stop to thank my hemorrhoids for forcing me to stand up more often, so I don't feel thankful in this case either.

You are speaking entirely for yourself in this case.

I am tired of off-the-wall ethno-nationalists effing up what were once good threads.

RMS2, because this is a public forum we have to go through the process. Banning people doesn't usually solve the problem. Don't let it get to you.
I don't agree that the thread has been f...ed up, sidelined yes.

Cheers D

Ümläüt
06-13-2018, 11:08 PM
When discussing my father-in-law's haplogroup (I2a-M423) via private communication, Eurogenes Rob told me that he was Gravetto-Danubian on Anthrogenica. I don't know that he ever publicly denied it.

I was speaking of his other identities/nicks, which I will not expose as I am not into doxxing people. He certainly is well read but his writings are not always faithful.

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:10 PM
RMS2, because this is a public forum we have to go through the process. Banning people doesn't usually solve the problem. Don't let it get to you.
I don't agree that the thread has been f...ed up, sidelined yes.

Cheers D

I wasn't talking about banning people; I was talking about you being too nice to trolls. I just don't feel inclined to thank them.

Sorry if that makes me a cranky old bastard. Guess that's what I am.

dsm
06-13-2018, 11:20 PM
I wasn't talking about banning people; I was talking about you being too nice to trolls. I just don't feel inclined to thank them.

Sorry if that makes me a cranky old bastard. Guess that's what I am.

Perhaps a good glass of Kentucky bourbon is needed - LOL

Doug (a reformed 'cranky old bastard')

rms2
06-13-2018, 11:24 PM
Perhaps a good glass of Kentucky bourbon is needed - LOL

Doug (a reformed 'cranky old bastard')

Not a bad suggestion. I just don't like to see what began as a really interesting thread started by a guy who knows what he is talking about devolve into another descent into 2007 La-La Land.

MitchellSince1893
06-13-2018, 11:41 PM
...Sorry if that makes me a cranky old bastard. Guess that's what I am.
Bell beaker in Saxony-Anhalt Germany blah blah blah Danube vs Carpathian route blah blah blah (You are a cranky old bastard because you teach in the public school system) blah blah blah similar arrowheads in Ukraine blah blah blah. ;)

(Had to throw in something relevant to the thread to avoid being hypocritical)

rms2
06-14-2018, 12:18 AM
Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker, which as far as I know I am the only one using, I think it is useful to differentiate between the steppe-derived, pastoralist people who had steppe dna and were mostly R1b-P312 and the Neolithic farmer types of Iberia who had neither steppe dna nor R1b-P312 and who are alleged to have been the earliest Bell Beaker people.

If those Neolithic Iberians were really Bell Beaker people, which in the fullest sense of the term I doubt, then obviously there were at least two very different kinds of Bell Beaker people.

I took the term from the following brief quote on page 391 of Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:



The striking similarity of burial practices ties the Bell Beaker complex to the Kurgan (Late Yamna) tradition.

One can call the steppe-derived, pastoralist Bell Beaker people Steppe Bell Beaker, but there is no indication the Beaker people were actually from the steppe. Instead they were the offspring or descendants of steppe pastoralists, so I think Kurgan Bell Beaker is more accurate.

I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay. I find it helpful, so I will continue to use it.

It seems to me a number of people are highly critical of Gimbutas who really have never read anything she wrote.

dsm
06-14-2018, 02:58 AM
Bell beaker in Saxony-Anhalt Germany blah blah blah Danube vs Carpathian route blah blah blah (You are a cranky old bastard because you teach in the public school system) blah blah blah similar arrowheads in Ukraine blah blah blah. ;)

(Had to throw in something relevant to the thread to avoid being hypocritical)

Nothing makes a good teacher crankier than when they offer the best current knowledge, the best known details, sound logic, very well supported evidence - yet the student fails to pick it up and argues back.

A challenge to one's own 'Raison d'etre'.

razyn
06-14-2018, 03:09 AM
Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker...

I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay.

I think the original assertion (by you) that there was such a thing was on this date, if not necessarily this thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11165-Bell-Beaker-and-the-Spread-of-R1b-P312&p=254926&viewfull=1#post254926

Anyway, "Kurgan Bell Beaker" has been kicking around for most of a year (although those useful threads keep getting shut down). And the only part of the crowd seriously arguing with you, after a year, are the fans out in the left field bleachers.

Cranky old bastards are sometimes right. I'm only eight years younger than your late dad, and maybe a teensy bit cranky myself. Being a card-carrying COB, I've been known to argue with you, too -- but when you're right, you're right.

ADW_1981
06-14-2018, 03:53 AM
Nothing makes a good teacher crankier than when they offer the best current knowledge, the best known details, sound logic, very well supported evidence - yet the student fails to pick it up and argues back.

A challenge to one's own 'Raison d'etre'.

Better yet, they pick it up, and then argue back. That's the whole point of teaching something.

R.Rocca
06-14-2018, 02:09 PM
Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker, which as far as I know I am the only one using, I think it is useful to differentiate between the steppe-derived, pastoralist people who had steppe dna and were mostly R1b-P312 and the Neolithic farmer types of Iberia who had neither steppe dna nor R1b-P312 and who are alleged to have been the earliest Bell Beaker people.

If those Neolithic Iberians were really Bell Beaker people, which in the fullest sense of the term I doubt, then obviously there were at least two very different kinds of Bell Beaker people.

I took the term from the following brief quote on page 391 of Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess:

One can call the steppe-derived, pastoralist Bell Beaker people Steppe Bell Beaker, but there is no indication the Beaker people were actually from the steppe. Instead they were the offspring or descendants of steppe pastoralists, so I think Kurgan Bell Beaker is more accurate.

I realize because I came up with the term, no one is likely to adopt it, for various reasons, and that's okay. I find it helpful, so I will continue to use it.

It seems to me a number of people are highly critical of Gimbutas who really have never read anything she wrote.

I choose to use "Steppe Bell Beaker" instead of "Kurgan Bell Beaker" for several reasons. First, the majority of Central European Bell Beaker skeletons are buried under flat graves, not kurgans. Also, the word "steppe" is the common term used by academia for the autosomal component spread by Yamnaya. Some kurgans along the Danube may not even have the steppe component. In these discussions, the genetic term "steppe" is clearer than the archaeological term "kurgan" IMO. Lastly, the word "kurgan" conjures up a lot of unnecessary debate about how right/wrong Gimbutas was.

We know rms2 that you have a pin-up poster of Gimbutas hanging in your garage, so I get why you use the term kurgan! Hahahaha... just teasing bud. We'll have to get together again for another Guinness next time I'm in your neck of the woods and you can bust my chops as well!

rms2
06-14-2018, 05:27 PM
I think some of the flat graves weren't flat to begin with.

We'll have to disagree about which term is best. I see Kurgan as representing a suite of characteristics, while steppe is primarily a term of geography. Oh, well.

Your point about Gimbutas is well taken, though. The term Kurgan Bell Beaker will never be adopted primarily because so many people don't like Gimbutas, or they don't like what they think they know about Gimbutas, which in some cases isn't much, because they have not read anything she wrote (I'm not talking about you, Rich; I know you have read Gimbutas).

etrusco
06-14-2018, 07:45 PM
I think some of the flat graves weren't flat to begin with.

We'll have to disagree about which term is best. I see Kurgan as representing a suite of characteristics, while steppe is primarily a term of geography. Oh, well.

Your point about Gimbutas is well taken, though. The term Kurgan Bell Beaker will never be adopted primarily because so many people don't like Gimbutas, or they don't like what they think they know about Gimbutas, which in some cases isn't much, because they have not read anything she wrote (I'm not talking about you, Rich; I know you have read Gimbutas).


Speaking about kurgan I found this on the net....

https://youtu.be/qIQ0pNlbvL0


Here is a confrontation between KBB and iberian bell beaker.......


https://youtu.be/nWbuYAKiXvE


Then a confrontation between KBB and atlantic megalithism ( seems pretty much Newgrange!!!)

https://youtu.be/_j6_H-PSml0

Come on after some tensions let us have a good laugh and self-irony!!!

Just to remind myself ( and maybe most of you) how much I miss the eighties!

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2018, 08:44 PM
Regarding the term Kurgan Bell Beaker, .


I choose to use "Steppe Bell Beaker" instead of "Kurgan Bell Beaker"

I'm going with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" :P everything but Iberian Bell Beaker

Is there an actual break down of types of Bell Beaker besides the geographic ones? e.g. Southern, Eastern Group, Central Group, Maritime Group etc

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-mhl0lSq04/WSFMJBHkjSI/AAAAAAAANaQ/Nfo1pJ4oVjUW2peas2izUUC2fSweRET9gCLcB/s400/400px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png
http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tmp728_thumb1.jpg

etrusco
06-14-2018, 09:19 PM
post deleted

Sincerly apologize for the post .....I realized too late that he was not speaking about an USA internal problem.:ban:

I tought he was speaking of american city gangs

etrusco
06-14-2018, 09:41 PM
I'm going with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" :P everything but Iberian Bell Beaker

Is there an actual break down of types of Bell Beaker besides the geographic ones? e.g. Southern, Eastern Group, Central Group, Maritime Group etc

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-mhl0lSq04/WSFMJBHkjSI/AAAAAAAANaQ/Nfo1pJ4oVjUW2peas2izUUC2fSweRET9gCLcB/s400/400px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png
http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tmp728_thumb1.jpg

The map you posted ( that many folks here consider controversial and outdated) in reality perfectly fits Jeunesse's theory.
We have a first arrival ( cultural elite mainly non demic) of the single grave warrior package ( precursor of the BBC CWC phenomenon) in southern europe ( hence the older dates) followed 300/ 400 years after of the proper demic diffusion of the same cultural package in northern/ central europe.

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2018, 09:57 PM
Besides pre P312 Iberian Bell Beaker, are there any other Bell Beaker groups that lack significant Steppe ancestry?

What I'm getting at is: Is it the presence of Steppe ancestry (e.g. Steppe Bell Beaker), or the absence Iberian ancestry (e.g. Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker) that differentiates the types of Bell Beaker?

Are there BB samples that lack significant amounts of both Iberian & Steppe ancestry?

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2018, 10:46 PM
The map you posted ( that many folks here consider controversial and outdated) in reality perfectly fits Jeunesse's theory.
We have a first arrival ( cultural elite mainly non demic) of the single grave warrior package ( precursor of the BBC CWC phenomenon) in southern europe ( hence the older dates) followed 300/ 400 years after of the proper demic diffusion of the same cultural package in northern/ central europe.

I just searched for maps that gave labels to different BB groups...not saying they are correct/valid

rms2
06-14-2018, 11:53 PM
The problem with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" is that eventually that kind of Beaker got to Iberia along with its steppe dna and P312.

We need to find a term for it that most of us "steppists" can agree on. Maybe IE Bell Beaker?

rms2
06-15-2018, 12:05 AM
Besides pre P312 Iberian Bell Beaker, are there any other Bell Beaker groups that lack significant Steppe ancestry?

What I'm getting at is: Is it the presence of Steppe ancestry (e.g. Steppe Bell Beaker), or the absence Iberian ancestry (e.g. Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker) that differentiates the types of Bell Beaker?

Are there BB samples that lack significant amounts of both Iberian & Steppe ancestry?

Not that I know of other than three females in Sicily, who were interred collectively in an artificial cave.

From page 28 of the Olalde et Supplementary Information:



Pergole 2 (Partanna, Sicily, Italy)
Contact person: Sebastiano Tusa

This site is a small artificial cave excavated in May 200676. Three main phases of use of this collective grave have been identified. The first corresponds to a few partially preserved Eneolithic burials. The second phase contains twelve secondary burials related to the later Sicilian Copper Age. The last phase is separated by a vault collapse and contains burials related to the Bell Beaker culture, accompanied by the usual Beaker cup, a large footed bowl with the typical pointillé decoration, a miniaturistic vase and a long bone dagger. We sampled three individuals from the Bell Beaker phase:


I4930/P2-4-US8-5: 2500–1900 BCE
I4933/P2-7-US5: 2500–1900 BCE
I4936/P2-10-US11: 2500–1900 BCE



I wonder if the presence of a Beaker cup should be enough to qualify a burial as Bell Beaker.

GoldenHind
06-15-2018, 12:10 AM
I'm going with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" :P everything but Iberian Bell Beaker

Is there an actual break down of types of Bell Beaker besides the geographic ones? e.g. Southern, Eastern Group, Central Group, Maritime Group etc

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O-mhl0lSq04/WSFMJBHkjSI/AAAAAAAANaQ/Nfo1pJ4oVjUW2peas2izUUC2fSweRET9gCLcB/s400/400px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png

http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tmp728_thumb1.jpg

I find it interesting that the second map includes "Northern" Beakers, and for some reason they do not appear at all on the first map.

rms2
06-15-2018, 12:22 AM
They're mentioned in this article (https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/bell-beakers-west-east), referred to under the heading The Northern Province. The article itself is a nice summary despite the misleading pre-Olalde-et-al title.



The Northern Province.

This province includes Jutland in Denmark, then stretches through northern Germany to the lower Elbe, then across northern Poland to the lower Vistula basin. A characteristic attribute of this province is the intense manufacture of flint daggers. Numerous metal items, especially lunulae and halberds, indicate a connection with the western province. A key factor in reconstructing the placement of the northern province in the framework of Bell Beakers is amber. Here were the main centers where amber objects were manufactured and exported to other localities.

This area has yielded many finds of Bell Beaker settlement sites. These often consisted of rectangular huts, built using post construction techniques, with a partly sunken floor. An analysis of house construction in Jutland showed that the Bell Beaker phase was not a time of radical changes but rather a continuation of the steady developments that had been taking place since the beginning of the Neolithic. Bell Beaker burials are known from both the megalithic tombs as well as from a few individual burials where the body was placed in the fetal position.

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2018, 02:53 AM
The problem with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" is that eventually that kind of Beaker got to Iberia along with its steppe dna and P312.

We need to find a term for it that most of us "steppists" can agree on. Maybe IE Bell Beaker?

"Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" wasn't a serious recommendation. But it got me to thinking. We now have something the creators of those maps and group names didn't have...ancient dna samples to assist in differentiating BB types.

To quote you
very early Iberian, who buried their dead in collective megalithic Neolithic tombs, and whose skeletons were short in stature, long headed (dolichocephalic), and gracile, and 2) Kurgan Bell Beaker, who buried their dead in single graves in pits under a round burial mound, with weapons and horse bones, and whose skeletons were tall and robust, with round (brachycephalic) heads.


I know I'm asking basic questions here, but pre-P312 entry into Iberia is there a consistent difference between the two as it pertains to:
Grave goods? The BB packages consistently differ in items included?
Single vs collective burials? If so did the single vs collective burial distinction last right up to the arrival of P312?

This map seems to make the burial type a key distinction with the "Southern Province" of BB clearly in the collective grave tradition, and the "Eastern Province" of BB fully in the single grave tradition area. With the "Western Province" overlapping both traditions

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PSnwvRmBfDQ/VBO_j0-raLI/AAAAAAAAB98/gv3_wa8daac/s1600/beaker.JPG

So you have Single Grave-BB and Colletive Grave-BB.

Just an observation of the map. The Upper Rhine River Valley (Present day Alsace, France & Baden, Germany) appears to be where the Eastern Province reaches it's closest point to the Collective Burial tradition.

GASKA
06-15-2018, 08:48 AM
I hope that wasn't the point, considering that only male graves contained the male burial package (wristguards, boar's tusk pendants, copper daggers). Also, undecorated beakers are only common in Central Europe and even show up in some Corded Ware graves. The undecorated handled pitchers are of clear Danubian origin.

Olalde not only gives up information about autosomal Dna, he also tell us many other things.

Irlbach-24 graves, "there is However NOT a single decorated BB in this cemetery". Af course all of the men P312 line. 14 tombs (women, children and men), don't have grave goods. I5655- Woman-Wide plate with horizontal handle. I5660-2 cups, four footed plate/bowl, single find tanged cooper dagger.
Alburg- 18 graves (all except nş 10 single burials), only grave 9 yields a broad metope decorated BB, and grave 18 a Non decorated handled beaker. 8 tombs (women, chidren and men) don't have grave goods. I3600.Young adult man, four footed plate bowl. I3594- 3 flints, 10 V perforated bone buttons, broad metope decorated beaker.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions, 24007

24008

24009

Examples of BB burials in Iberia

anglesqueville
06-15-2018, 09:04 AM
For info, as seemingly the debate is not closed, I have made the analysis of ATP3's bam. Not a big job, since it's only 80Mb. For the amateurs, here is what I get (very far from the highly speculative works of genetiker and open-genomes):
complete y-snps:

SNP Name,Position,Derived,Reference,Genotype
Z12857,10007734,No(-),A,A
Z3238,10007773,No(-),G,G
Z11987,10057648,Yes(+),G,G
Z2166,10060837,No(-),G,G
Z4003,13211816,No(-),C,C
BY332,13211925,No(-),C,C
Z4883,13211940,No(-),G,G
Y1521,13234104,Yes(+),T,T
Z4005,13238850,No(-),C,C
Z4006,13238871,No(-),G,G
S13758,13238882,No(-),T,T
PF545,13446883,No(-),T,T
YSC0000122,13450571,No(-),A,A
YSC0000123,13450578,No(-),G,G
Z11997,13477897,Yes(+),T,T
S14124,13477920,No(-),C,C
S14125,13477934,No(-),T,T
S14126,13477938,No(-),T,T
S14127,13477947,No(-),T,T
Z1917,13496371,No(-),T,T
Z4010,13496383,No(-),A,A
PF1397,13502048,Yes(+),C,C
Z3626,13548235,No(-),C,C
K174,13559688,No(-),T,T
Z1698,13559714,No(-),G,G
Z4888,13603924,No(-),C,C
S14276,13603963,No(-),T,T
Z2947,13653913,No(-),C,C
PF1616,13674208,No(-),G,G
Z15831,13691088,No(-),G,G
S5092,13704323,No(-),G,G
PF617,13724808,No(-),G,G
PF618,13724827,Yes(+),G,G
PF620,13803166,Yes(+),A,A
Z8018,13811971,No(-),C,C
Z12007,13841677,Yes(+),G,G
S14819,13844385,No(-),C,C
S14820,13844394,No(-),C,C
Z3278,13844422,No(-),C,C
S14821,13844445,No(-),C,C
PF7392,13844698,No(-),C,C
Z13906,13844699,No(-),G,G
S14927,13853172,No(-),T,T
S14929,13853215,No(-),C,C
Z15496,13869975,No(-),C,C
Z1808,13874161,No(-),C,C
S7243,13874244,No(-),G,G
M8073,13894923,No(-),T,T
Z3734,13949258,No(-),G,G
PF639,13971476,No(-),G,G
F1666,13990589,No(-),C,C
M10634,13990612,No(-),C,C
CTS1640,14001804,No(-),C,C
Z14276,14004420,No(-),T,T
S773,14015068,No(-),G,G
PF7274,14018348,No(-),C,C
CTS1724,14034182,No(-),C,C
M4458,14034186,No(-),T,T
Z13065,14049265,No(-),C,C
CTS1803,14074349,No(-),G,G
CTS1804,14074998,No(-),C,C
CTS1819,14082877,No(-),C,C
M5121,14082877,No(-),C,C
PF2504,14082877,No(-),C,C
Z1172,14082877,No(-),C,C
M2455,14096636,No(-),G,G
CTS1852,14096649,No(-),A,A
S15440,14096665,No(-),G,G
M3099,14106962,No(-),T,T
CTS2127,14191153,No(-),C,C
S3270,14191153,No(-),C,C
Z6095,14193006,No(-),T,T
PR1367,14197599,No(-),A,A
PR1368,14197605,No(-),C,C
L596,14197631,No(-),G,G
PF6907,14197631,No(-),G,G
S292,14197631,No(-),G,G
PR5057,14197664,No(-),T,T
CTS2189,14211355,No(-),G,G
CTS2213,14219605,No(-),T,T
CTS2243,14229525,No(-),C,C
PF2436,14238224,No(-),C,C
S15689,14241023,No(-),G,G
PF3444,14271364,No(-),A,A
CTS2364,14277168,No(-),G,G
M1822,14277168,No(-),G,G
CTS2380,14282902,No(-),G,G
FGC1831,14296099,No(-),C,C
Y2217,14296099,No(-),C,C
DF19,14301499,No(-),G,G
S232,14301499,No(-),G,G
Z4574,14312712,No(-),A,A
S15803,14313420,No(-),C,C
YSC0000648,14313523,No(-),A,A
M7626,14314156,No(-),G,G
Z1389,14338516,No(-),A,A
M9738,14357762,No(-),C,C
PF7621,14367587,No(-),G,G
Z5418,14390447,No(-),G,G
F4171,14448854,No(-),C,C
PF6557,14464949,No(-),T,T
CTS2801,14490821,No(-),C,C
PR5121,14492010,No(-),A,A
PR5122,14492016,No(-),C,C
PR5123,14492020,No(-),T,T
L639,14492023,No(-),C,C
PR5124,14492024,No(-),G,G
P51,14492042,No(-),T,T
PR5125,14492083,No(-),A,A
S16082,14494787,No(-),T,T
S16083,14494799,No(-),T,T
F1790,14494829,No(-),C,C
PR1470,14498579,No(-),C,C
M7160,14498584,No(-),G,G
PR1471,14498596,No(-),G,G
PR5148,14498597,No(-),C,C
PR5149,14498627,No(-),G,G
PR5150,14498632,No(-),A,A
PR5151,14498636,No(-),G,G
PR1472,14498644,No(-),C,C
PR1473,14498647,No(-),G,G
L746,14515450,No(-),C,C
S310,14515450,No(-),C,C
Z5894,14515472,No(-),G,G
CTS2847,14521064,No(-),A,A
PF5748,14577807,No(-),C,C
M7464,14584547,No(-),T,T
M11245,14595821,No(-),G,G
S2018,14624256,No(-),C,C
S4940,14628879,No(-),T,T
M10748,14635325,No(-),G,G
CTS3058,14635398,No(-),T,T
CTS3059,14635423,No(-),G,G
S1079,14638135,No(-),C,C
CTS3072,14645266,No(-),G,G
CTS3073,14645286,No(-),G,G
Z1219,14645286,No(-),G,G
CTS3077,14646656,No(-),T,T
CTS3094,14661971,No(-),C,C
PF2050,14661971,No(-),C,C
S7837,14664764,No(-),A,A
S16273,14664770,No(-),C,C
CTS3103,14666345,No(-),C,C
Z1954,14666345,No(-),C,C
FGC20667,14666352,No(-),T,T
YSC0000666,14666387,No(-),A,A
CTS3122,14673835,No(-),G,G
M1100,14673835,No(-),G,G
M6639,14719425,No(-),G,G
M9765,14725961,No(-),G,G
M4183,14725963,No(-),A,A
PF2439,14742761,No(-),A,A
AD0000002,14776442,No(-),C,C
FGC1714,14776442,No(-),C,C
BY21,14830612,No(-),A,A
S3836,14839508,No(-),T,T
PR1576,14850620,No(-),G,G
PR5240,14850629,No(-),C,C
PR1577,14850651,No(-),C,C
CTS3364,14867610,No(-),C,C
CTS3365,14867628,No(-),A,A
F272,14885936,No(-),A,A
M3299,14885960,No(-),A,A
P97,14886273,Yes(+),T,T
M3884,14986690,No(-),C,C
M6146,14987437,No(-),C,C
M3149,15008352,No(-),A,A
PR1704,15026492,No(-),A,A
M7287,15047779,No(-),T,T
CTS3586,15047903,No(-),C,C
M7970,15062630,No(-),A,A
F1906,15062639,No(-),C,C
CTS3606,15062676,No(-),G,G
PF7172,15088238,No(-),G,G
CTS3636,15088243,No(-),T,T
Z1550,15088243,No(-),T,T
Z12887,15212128,No(-),A,A
Z2114,15248056,No(-),C,C
CTS3900,15250214,No(-),C,C
Z14933,15250229,No(-),C,C
F1918,15250230,No(-),G,G
PF7035,15254524,No(-),C,C
M4367,15274974,No(-),G,G
PR1753,15275026,No(-),T,T
Z16240,15322810,No(-),C,C
CTS3999,15325185,No(-),C,C
S16998,15328614,No(-),T,T
F1930,15345155,No(-),C,C
S27287,15350616,No(-),T,T
PF4216,15350643,No(-),G,G
S666,15357494,No(-),C,C
S17040,15357496,No(-),T,T
S1330,15357506,No(-),T,T
S6310,15357525,No(-),G,G
CTS4064,15370523,No(-),T,T
Z1328,15370523,No(-),T,T
Z2083,15379927,No(-),T,T
M9812,15385454,No(-),T,T
PR5491,15437216,No(-),G,G
PR5492,15437235,No(-),G,G
M217,15437333,No(-),A,A
PR5493,15437335,No(-),A,A
PR5494,15437349,No(-),A,A
PR5495,15437361,No(-),A,A
PR5496,15437362,No(-),A,A
PR5497,15437379,No(-),C,C
CTS4217,15485869,No(-),C,C
CTS4253,15519373,No(-),G,G
CTS4259,15525535,No(-),G,G
M683,15525535,No(-),G,G
PF6186,15525535,No(-),G,G
S17240,15525560,No(-),C,C
CTS4316,15569762,No(-),G,G
PR1912,15591340,No(-),A,A
CTS4500,15678556,No(-),G,G
S4689,15678556,No(-),G,G
CTS4509,15686890,No(-),T,T
M687,15686890,No(-),T,T
S296,15711340,No(-),C,C
Z138,15711340,No(-),C,C
CTS4638,15742434,No(-),G,G
PF2229,15742434,No(-),G,G
Y920,15752741,No(-),T,T
F1988,15752815,No(-),G,G
M3315,15752816,No(-),G,G
S17543,15752816,No(-),G,G
YSC0000760,15756610,No(-),A,A
M6950,15777100,No(-),A,A
M998,15786177,No(-),C,C
M6408,15786182,No(-),A,A
CTS4728,15786449,No(-),T,T
S4762,15792696,No(-),G,G
CTS4742,15793004,No(-),G,G
Z1232,15793004,No(-),G,G
ZS280,15793005,No(-),T,T
Z3319,15794205,No(-),C,C
PF5764,15794626,No(-),C,C
S17615,15798712,No(-),G,G
F3931,15827836,No(-),A,A
CTS4812,15836933,No(-),C,C
M690,15836933,No(-),C,C
PF6187,15836933,No(-),C,C
S17665,15851140,No(-),G,G
CTS4921,15903731,No(-),T,T
M4243,15903731,No(-),T,T
CTS5022,15962590,No(-),T,T
CTS5023,15962625,No(-),A,A
PF763,15962626,No(-),C,C
M2862,15965479,No(-),T,T
Z4378,15965479,No(-),T,T
CTS5026,15965490,No(-),A,A
CTS5057,15994768,No(-),A,A
CTS5058,15994775,No(-),C,C
Z6376,15995546,No(-),G,G
Z2932,15995561,No(-),C,C
CTS5172,16050319,No(-),G,G
S17885,16071403,No(-),C,C
PR5734,16202072,No(-),G,G
PR5735,16202080,No(-),G,G
PR5736,16202086,No(-),T,T
PR5737,16202094,No(-),C,C
PR5738,16202109,No(-),G,G
CTS5315,16202137,No(-),G,G
PR5739,16202151,No(-),T,T
Z14936,16217450,No(-),A,A
S18009,16231367,No(-),G,G
CTS5382,16242262,No(-),C,C
Z2512,16242262,No(-),C,C
CTS5470,16300630,No(-),G,G
S4412,16300630,No(-),G,G
M5930,16306680,No(-),G,G
CTS5484,16311963,No(-),G,G
Z14350,16314520,Yes(+),T,T
CTS5528,16346098,No(-),C,C
S18171,16346107,No(-),A,A
CTS5529,16346112,No(-),G,G
CTS5530,16346117,No(-),C,C
M5183,16346117,No(-),C,C
PF1689,16346117,No(-),C,C
CTS5565,16365774,No(-),T,T
PF5773,16368746,No(-),G,G
PF5076,16379990,No(-),T,T
CTS5586,16380950,No(-),C,C
CTS5588,16381870,No(-),C,C
M9901,16418963,No(-),G,G
S18297,16433314,No(-),C,C
M10915,16439465,No(-),C,C
S18330,16448842,No(-),C,C
CTS5752,16467656,No(-),C,C
CTS5753,16467706,No(-),A,A
Z13102,16485902,No(-),G,G
Z16790,16487065,No(-),A,A
M4283,16495736,No(-),C,C
CTS5836,16499694,No(-),C,C
PF2265,16499695,No(-),G,G
Z17895,16511248,No(-),T,T
F2185,16512538,No(-),C,C
PR5845,16512548,No(-),T,T
M2881,16559404,No(-),C,C
Z4598,16559404,No(-),C,C
S18473,16559748,No(-),A,A
S18474,16559777,No(-),A,A
CTS5998,16604139,No(-),A,A
M4828,16604139,No(-),A,A
PR5884,16615302,No(-),T,T
PR2223,16615326,No(-),A,A
PR2224,16615342,No(-),C,C
PR2225,16615350,No(-),G,G
CTS6029,16621278,No(-),C,C
M7846,16621341,No(-),G,G
PR5889,16626221,No(-),C,C
PR5890,16626255,No(-),C,C
Z6371,16626505,No(-),A,A
PR5894,16626530,No(-),T,T
Z5881,16662436,No(-),C,C
K258,16662477,No(-),C,C
PR5941,16718857,No(-),T,T
PR5942,16718874,No(-),A,A
CTS6189,16718893,No(-),C,C
Z12294,16741765,No(-),G,G
M8410,16771404,No(-),T,T
S1527,16779374,No(-),A,A
M7124,16779407,No(-),G,G
S18786,16781620,No(-),G,G
F2269,16798283,No(-),A,A
CTS6333,16824270,No(-),T,T
M5478,16824270,No(-),T,T
PF1702,16824270,No(-),T,T
Z15021,16824352,No(-),T,T
Z5522,16835391,No(-),G,G
PF5781,16843086,No(-),T,T
CTS6359,16846281,No(-),G,G
CTS6360,16846285,No(-),G,G
F370,16856357,Yes(+),C,C
M708,16856357,Yes(+),C,C
PF6047,16856357,Yes(+),C,C
CTS6403,16873532,No(-),C,C
CTS6404,16874320,No(-),A,A
S18913,16874328,No(-),T,T
PF6981,16874343,No(-),T,T
YSC0000834,16875453,No(-),C,C
GG287,16937216,No(-),C,C
CTS6501,16943799,No(-),C,C
YSC0000843,16943800,No(-),T,T
M10515,16975674,No(-),T,T
CTS6590,16995789,No(-),T,T
K272,17035531,No(-),A,A
M9974,17094917,No(-),T,T
CTS6758,17094940,No(-),G,G
CTS6768,17099268,No(-),A,A
CTS6769,17099502,No(-),G,G
M1397,17099513,No(-),C,C
CTS6829,17128586,No(-),G,G
Z2168,17128586,No(-),G,G
F2404,17167255,No(-),G,G
CTS6949,17206542,No(-),C,C
M9981,17214061,No(-),C,C
CTS7028,17246058,No(-),T,T
PF4562,17246058,No(-),T,T
PF3238,17256431,No(-),G,G
Z5544,17276032,No(-),G,G
CTS7090,17281409,No(-),C,C
M9993,17306999,No(-),G,G
Z6214,17307278,No(-),T,T
CTS7132,17308332,No(-),T,T
M5225,17308332,No(-),T,T
PF2531,17308332,No(-),T,T
CTS7144,17317920,No(-),A,A
M7322,17319880,No(-),G,G
CTS7159,17329732,No(-),T,T
CTS7189,17340777,No(-),C,C
M6218,17347581,No(-),C,C
M720,17374774,No(-),G,G
CTS7261,17382304,No(-),G,G
F2470,17402938,No(-),G,G
S19672,17411960,No(-),G,G
AF12,17421092,No(-),G,G
V75.1,17421349,No(-),G,G
V75.2,17421349,No(-),G,G
CTS7348,17433163,No(-),A,A
CTS7349,17433193,No(-),C,C
M5230,17433193,No(-),C,C
PF2533,17433193,No(-),C,C
Z1192,17433193,No(-),C,C
Z639,17436200,No(-),A,A
CTS7398,17459318,No(-),G,G
PR2507,17470175,No(-),C,C
PR2508,17470178,No(-),T,T
PR2509,17470231,No(-),C,C
CTS7428,17474300,No(-),A,A
F2510,17509926,No(-),C,C
F3706,17509927,No(-),T,T
F3707,17509929,No(-),G,G
F415,17551116,No(-),C,C
M2327,17551116,No(-),C,C
S19886,17551116,No(-),C,C
Z15401,17566408,No(-),G,G
S19902,17566425,No(-),T,T
M6719,17571692,No(-),G,G
CTS7743,17640540,No(-),C,C
Z13768,17651790,No(-),T,T
M11445,17667568,No(-),G,G
CTS7803,17676845,No(-),G,G
Z1403,17676845,No(-),G,G
CTS7814,17683597,No(-),C,C
CTS7815,17683602,No(-),G,G
CTS7822,17684699,No(-),A,A
Z2110,17684699,No(-),A,A
CTS7823,17684717,No(-),T,T
M8817,17684717,No(-),T,T
M4203,17684724,No(-),A,A
FGC1847,17686883,No(-),A,A
Y2137,17686883,No(-),A,A
CTS7824,17686886,No(-),T,T
M5495,17686886,No(-),T,T
PF1732,17686886,No(-),T,T
S20068,17686929,No(-),C,C
S5524,17703892,No(-),T,T
S20154,17752917,No(-),T,T
CTS7954,17762974,No(-),T,T
CTS7957,17763931,No(-),C,C
M6422,17763931,No(-),C,C
Z12489,17780301,No(-),T,T
M7864,17873426,No(-),G,G
CTS8214,17882893,No(-),G,G
S20365,17896042,No(-),G,G
M6233,17896064,No(-),T,T
S1170,17896224,No(-),C,C
PR2694,17937040,No(-),T,T
PR2695,17937041,No(-),G,G
CTS8369,17961512,No(-),T,T
M5502,17961512,No(-),T,T
PF1744,17961512,No(-),T,T
S7494,17961512,No(-),T,T
Y1232,17962938,No(-),C,C
CTS8492,18052515,No(-),T,T
CTS8563,18083677,No(-),G,G
M9248,18113973,Yes(+),A,A
CTS8632,18119024,No(-),G,G
CTS8653,18130762,No(-),A,A
M6734,18135734,No(-),C,C
CTS8666,18138115,No(-),G,G
S7123,18172011,No(-),A,A
S20834,18224301,No(-),T,T
S20859,18245713,No(-),A,A
CTS8862,18246590,No(-),G,G
S6285,18247628,No(-),T,T
PR2798,18248877,No(-),C,C
PR2799,18248887,No(-),G,G
Z5606,18393159,No(-),C,C
PF3407,18393231,No(-),T,T
Z4388,18405356,No(-),C,C
F3795,18552719,No(-),C,C
F2770,18552726,No(-),T,T
CTS8939,18568686,No(-),G,G
S3528,18568686,No(-),G,G
P180,18601274,No(-),G,G
PF1941,18601274,No(-),G,G
M8006,18603235,No(-),C,C
CTS9074,18655034,No(-),G,G
S7900,18666417,No(-),C,C
M8833,18693980,No(-),A,A
S21214,18722903,No(-),T,T
CTS9209,18750456,No(-),A,A
CTS9252,18779452,No(-),G,G
S4245,18779452,No(-),G,G
M2693,18795682,Yes(+),T,T
PF5501,18795682,Yes(+),T,T
CTS9320,18820189,No(-),T,T
Z14953,18825052,No(-),G,G
CTS9326,18826549,No(-),G,G
CTS9354,18845280,No(-),T,T
CTS9374,18860670,No(-),T,T
M7346,18867296,No(-),T,T
CTS9504,18940112,No(-),C,C
FGC623,18946624,No(-),C,C
Z6585,18946624,No(-),C,C
CTS9565,18965237,No(-),C,C
Z1408,18965237,No(-),C,C
CTS9601,18983926,No(-),A,A
CTS9642,19011597,No(-),T,T
M5982,19011597,No(-),T,T
M8109,19037116,No(-),C,C
CTS9719,19037171,No(-),C,C
M748,19045552,Yes(+),T,T
CTS9779,19068456,No(-),C,C
Z14370,19104335,No(-),G,G
L516,19105726,No(-),A,A
PR3015,19105747,No(-),A,A
PR6406,19105758,No(-),C,C
CTS9892,19122996,No(-),A,A
CTS9924,19149084,No(-),A,A
S4664,19149084,No(-),A,A
CTS9926,19149827,No(-),T,T
S453,19179436,No(-),T,T
Z224,19179436,No(-),T,T
CTS9987,19189243,No(-),C,C
PF3921,19194445,No(-),C,C
CTS9997,19197051,No(-),C,C
Z1691,19197051,No(-),C,C
F2978,19197107,No(-),G,G
S21963,19229343,No(-),G,G
CTS10052,19229358,No(-),G,G
M11529,19229386,No(-),C,C
CTS10053,19229575,No(-),C,C
K334,19237276,No(-),T,T
S21973,19237296,No(-),G,G
Z2532,19254560,No(-),G,G
CTS10115,19268554,No(-),G,G
F2999,19269306,No(-),C,C
M2253,19269306,No(-),C,C
S22032,19269306,No(-),C,C
PR6442,19292039,No(-),G,G
PR6443,19292073,No(-),C,C
PR3077,19292105,No(-),A,A
S22115,19318999,No(-),T,T
M2991,19334488,No(-),T,T
Z4306,19334488,No(-),T,T
CTS10239,19340835,No(-),C,C
L1336,19372904,No(-),T,T
PR3106,19372968,No(-),C,C
PR6454,19372972,No(-),A,A
PR6455,19372975,No(-),C,C
PR6456,19372976,No(-),C,C
CTS10293,19377130,No(-),T,T
Z821,19391907,No(-),C,C
M9292,19391922,Yes(+),C,C
CTS10316,19391923,No(-),G,G
CTS10369,19424283,No(-),G,G
F544,19445302,No(-),C,C
F3059,19470491,No(-),T,T
M6443,19474719,No(-),T,T
CTS10480,19476677,No(-),T,T
Z13416,20811224,No(-),A,A
F3820,21068933,No(-),G,G
PR6524,21083192,No(-),A,A
PF7215,21128665,No(-),T,T
S3149,21173566,No(-),C,C
S22705,21193162,No(-),T,T
Z1413,21202683,No(-),C,C
F3160,21229385,No(-),C,C
Z944,21237511,No(-),C,C
F4005,21249370,No(-),A,A
Z1345,21249370,No(-),A,A
S5435,21277622,No(-),C,C
Z379,21277622,No(-),C,C
S22866,21309520,No(-),G,G
F575,21310190,No(-),T,T
M5290,21315746,No(-),C,C
S22882,21315746,No(-),C,C
PF6593,21315763,No(-),C,C
PF4926,21325248,No(-),T,T
M4895,21401576,No(-),C,C
M5782,21413635,Yes(+),C,C
PF1046,21413635,Yes(+),C,C
Z15037,21421091,No(-),A,A
M2265,21427599,No(-),A,A
Z4941,21427599,No(-),A,A
M11595,21480365,No(-),G,G
Z1455,21482611,No(-),G,G
Y702,21484396,No(-),C,C
M9327,21492793,Yes(+),A,A
Z15756,21494625,No(-),A,A
PR3272,21507351,No(-),C,C
PR3273,21507373,No(-),T,T
Y46,21557612,No(-),C,C
S6538,21557774,No(-),G,G
PR3289,21558588,No(-),C,C
A376,21573787,No(-),G,G
M6783,21573821,No(-),G,G
PR3304,21610373,No(-),C,C
M1455,21614288,No(-),C,C
S3013,21614343,No(-),A,A
S23370,21625817,No(-),G,G
DF93,21634731,No(-),T,T
S1687,21634731,No(-),T,T
M5786,21650381,Yes(+),G,G
PF1061,21650381,Yes(+),G,G
S914,21672677,No(-),T,T
M8887,21672696,No(-),C,C
M3399,21698169,No(-),C,C
S23448,21702987,No(-),C,C
PR6718,21733230,No(-),A,A
M19,21733231,No(-),T,T
PR3469,21766052,No(-),T,T
PR6782,21766086,No(-),G,G
PR6783,21766099,No(-),C,C
S7808,21783060,No(-),G,G
M6786,21797516,No(-),T,T
M2339,21797754,No(-),T,T
Z4952,21797754,No(-),T,T
S23564,21797814,No(-),G,G
S23655,21855928,No(-),G,G
Z15256,21862659,No(-),T,T
M1460,21862684,No(-),A,A
PF3816,21862684,No(-),A,A
M50,21868672,No(-),T,T
PR6835,21868673,No(-),G,G
PR3527,21868715,No(-),G,G
M49,21868726,No(-),T,T
Page41,21868726,No(-),T,T
M88,21900849,No(-),A,A
PR6929,21900851,No(-),A,A
PR6930,21900869,No(-),T,T
M5314,21909401,No(-),A,A
PF1826,21909401,No(-),A,A
M103,21936138,No(-),C,C
M4572,21971238,No(-),T,T
PF5825,21997767,No(-),C,C
PF6330,22019518,No(-),C,C
F3281,22019711,No(-),T,T
M1462,22019711,No(-),T,T
Z1028,22032391,No(-),C,C
M7886,22054545,No(-),A,A
Z14958,22058022,No(-),T,T
K20,22059661,No(-),C,C
M1463,22059661,No(-),C,C
Z15526,22074644,No(-),G,G
M6308,22078880,No(-),T,T
S23978,22109570,No(-),T,T
M3044,22184080,No(-),A,A
S2604,22188296,No(-),T,T
F3309,22206586,No(-),T,T
Z17257,22207036,No(-),G,G
Z5731,22239467,No(-),G,G
PF5213,22261734,No(-),G,G
PF1120,22279581,No(-),A,A
Z14962,22346018,No(-),T,T
Z17376,22346076,Yes(+),T,T
ZS129,22346469,No(-),C,C
PF1855,22432652,No(-),A,A
Y750,22459024,No(-),A,A
FGC2270,22469964,No(-),G,G
Y1772,22469964,No(-),G,G
Z15878,22475788,No(-),C,C
K396,22475806,No(-),A,A
Z17721,22477665,Yes(+),C,C
PF2756,22478735,Yes(+),A,A
S7452,22478735,Yes(+),A,A
Z4735,22478786,No(-),G,G
M10289,22542640,No(-),C,C
M2105,22546161,No(-),G,G
Z5022,22548351,Yes(+),C,C
Z14166,22628961,No(-),C,C
M7890,22669277,No(-),A,A
PR3730,22669315,No(-),T,T
PR7069,22669348,No(-),A,A
PR7070,22669361,No(-),G,G
F3339,22678809,No(-),T,T
S24581,22704645,No(-),G,G
PF6953,22708619,No(-),T,T
F3347,22708656,No(-),C,C
PF4608,22708656,No(-),C,C
YSC0001315,22708656,No(-),C,C
Z4135,22709670,Yes(+),C,C
F623,22739454,No(-),C,C
CTS10756,22760342,No(-),C,C
CTS10830,22795522,No(-),C,C
Z13946,22795571,No(-),C,C
M7892,22813414,No(-),A,A
S24786,22847768,No(-),G,G
CTS11001,22884954,No(-),T,T
M11666,22884954,No(-),T,T
PF5081,22909223,No(-),C,C
CTS11053,22921713,No(-),G,G
F3373,22921768,No(-),G,G
M2283,22921768,No(-),G,G
Page56,22921768,No(-),G,G
S323,22921768,No(-),G,G
YSC0001151,22930358,No(-),A,A
L26,22942897,No(-),T,T
Page55,22942897,No(-),T,T
PF5110,22942897,No(-),T,T
S57,22942897,No(-),T,T
PF7457,22945511,No(-),A,A
PR7180,22957469,No(-),G,G
PR3846,22957485,No(-),C,C
PR7181,22957494,No(-),A,A
CTS11122,22966156,No(-),C,C
CTS11136,22971842,No(-),C,C
CTS11158,22982887,No(-),C,C
YSC0001155,22994596,No(-),T,T
CTS11196,23005701,No(-),T,T
M3617,23005701,No(-),T,T
PF3101,23005701,No(-),T,T
F3396,23033704,No(-),C,C
CTS11251,23033706,No(-),C,C
PF5112,23033706,No(-),C,C
F3399,23050063,No(-),C,C
CTS11293,23059353,No(-),C,C
PR3892,23059391,No(-),G,G
CTS11367,23084449,No(-),T,T
CTS11368,23084480,No(-),C,C
PF3224,23086186,No(-),G,G
M1913,23086191,No(-),G,G
CTS11385,23089784,No(-),G,G
PF6518,23099744,Yes(+),A,A
CTS11577,23165423,No(-),C,C
K419,23165431,No(-),A,A
PF5340,23184106,No(-),C,C
Z442,23184106,No(-),C,C
S25267,23184125,No(-),T,T
PF5583,23184728,No(-),G,G
CTS11655,23205011,No(-),A,A
M9380,23256074,Yes(+),G,G
PF1256,23256074,Yes(+),G,G
F3424,23268915,No(-),A,A
M1489,23268915,No(-),A,A
CTS11782,23268923,No(-),T,T
PF2007,23268923,No(-),T,T
PR7336,23302432,No(-),T,T
PR7337,23302470,No(-),A,A
CTS11949,23379400,No(-),G,G
M11701,23400107,No(-),A,A
CTS11983,23402887,No(-),A,A
PF5114,23402887,No(-),A,A
CTS11989,23405883,No(-),G,G
CTS12003,23412989,No(-),A,A
PF3846,23412989,No(-),A,A
Z2673,23412989,No(-),A,A
PF5838,23413167,No(-),C,C
M7095,23497171,No(-),G,G
F3445,23508772,No(-),G,G
F3446,23508775,No(-),C,C
PF4074,23525306,No(-),C,C
M8660,23571841,No(-),A,A
F3496,23621266,No(-),C,C
M3625,23621266,No(-),C,C
PF3118,23621266,No(-),C,C
M2123,23621268,No(-),A,A
PR4000,23627578,No(-),G,G
PR4001,23627593,No(-),A,A
PR4002,23627610,No(-),A,A
F3506,23632903,No(-),A,A
PF4270,23646881,No(-),G,G
FGC1934,23646920,No(-),C,C
Y2196,23646920,No(-),C,C
Z13950,23648926,No(-),A,A
Z511,23752613,No(-),G,G
YSC0001216,23764259,No(-),T,T
Z14190,23777076,No(-),A,A
M936,23827089,No(-),C,C
PF4382,23894831,No(-),A,A
S25932,23897924,No(-),A,A
S25985,23955064,No(-),T,T
Z5821,23955100,No(-),A,A
Z15891,23955101,No(-),T,T
M10394,23971911,No(-),T,T
M4456,24395715,No(-),T,T
Z14855,24432100,No(-),A,A
FGC639,24433040,No(-),T,T
Z6610,24433040,No(-),T,T
F3653,24468019,No(-),A,A
F3665,24495810,No(-),T,T
CTS7,2657442,No(-),T,T
S8170,2657514,No(-),T,T
CTS56,2698014,No(-),C,C
S5456,2708920,No(-),T,T
M410,2751678,No(-),A,A
CTS164,2775393,No(-),T,T
PF6275,2795834,No(-),G,G
Z14782,2818684,No(-),G,G
CTS217,2818703,No(-),A,A
F737,2821176,No(-),T,T
M4302,2823513,No(-),G,G
CTS12067,28464728,No(-),G,G
CTS12103,28480202,No(-),T,T
CTS12163,28501198,No(-),G,G
M7580,28515973,No(-),C,C
M11022,2857653,No(-),T,T
M10833,2857659,No(-),A,A
M10834,2857661,No(-),T,T
Y1267,28636251,No(-),C,C
M3773,28664607,Yes(+),T,T
M3221,28666060,No(-),G,G
CTS12678,28666076,No(-),G,G
PR4270,2868411,No(-),G,G
FGC645,2868439,No(-),A,A
Z6616,2868439,No(-),A,A
PR175,2868448,No(-),G,G
PR176,2868471,No(-),A,A
V214,2868496,No(-),A,A
V215,2868499,No(-),T,T
PR4271,2868518,No(-),T,T
PR177,2868530,No(-),G,G
CTS12810,28710317,No(-),G,G
M3440,28710317,No(-),G,G
PF3284,28710317,No(-),G,G
CTS12859,28725573,No(-),C,C
CTS12908,28747545,No(-),A,A
M2681,28765469,No(-),C,C
S26515,28784303,No(-),A,A
S26518,28784344,No(-),C,C
S26519,28784346,No(-),C,C
DC6,28786856,No(-),T,T
Y5610,28786856,No(-),T,T
PF4085,28795070,No(-),G,G
S3826,28795461,No(-),A,A
PF1341,28796841,No(-),T,T
PF1347,28807106,No(-),C,C
PF1349,28807418,No(-),C,C
S3121,28809037,No(-),C,C
S27766,28817442,No(-),A,A
L1294,2887401,No(-),T,T
PR207,2887408,No(-),G,G
PR208,2887412,No(-),T,T
PR209,2887425,No(-),T,T
CTS315,2888912,No(-),G,G
CTS321,2890647,No(-),C,C
Z1528,2890647,No(-),C,C
Z972,2901927,No(-),T,T
S2478,2902028,No(-),G,G
S5876,2902028,No(-),G,G
Z3049,2952660,No(-),T,T
FGC1758,3111159,No(-),G,G
Y2013,3111159,No(-),G,G
Z13629,3116311,No(-),C,C
FGC22501,3390633,No(-),G,G
PF38,3396403,Yes(+),T,T
Z3871,3430547,No(-),T,T
Z3068,3503014,No(-),C,C
Z12989,3731939,No(-),T,T
FGC1774,3815203,No(-),G,G
Y2016,3815203,No(-),G,G
S3022,3964173,No(-),A,A
Z97,4067069,No(-),A,A
Z15427,4142677,No(-),G,G
Z2552,4217182,No(-),C,C
S8918,4527013,No(-),A,A
K68,4588346,No(-),G,G
Z5125,4693108,No(-),T,T
PR4367,4769934,No(-),G,G
PR4368,4769946,No(-),C,C
Z2057,4770006,No(-),T,T
Z994,4770897,No(-),A,A
PR287,4919869,No(-),T,T
PR288,4919908,No(-),C,C
Z12822,4998297,No(-),A,A
Z1583,5490986,No(-),G,G
Z1584,5491646,No(-),G,G
Y569,5699467,No(-),C,C
Z677,5770824,No(-),G,G
Z681,5918839,No(-),C,C
Z12763,6007350,No(-),C,C
F756,6104391,No(-),A,A
F4057,6144385,No(-),G,G
F764,6144387,No(-),T,T
F765,6144391,No(-),A,A
PF2309,6385995,No(-),C,C
Z14897,6427807,No(-),G,G
Z3699,6454260,No(-),T,T
PF2837,6503312,No(-),T,T
Z7943,6621323,No(-),G,G
PR4448,6753177,No(-),A,A
PR4449,6753180,No(-),A,A
M2366,6759418,No(-),C,C
PR386,6777146,No(-),C,C
PR4459,6777182,No(-),G,G
PR4460,6777188,No(-),C,C
F4064,6801231,No(-),G,G
CTS549,6835512,No(-),G,G
L1322,6835512,No(-),G,G
PF5598,6835512,No(-),G,G
Z724,6835545,No(-),C,C
F834,6840368,No(-),A,A
PR449,6846093,No(-),C,C
S6462,6853699,No(-),G,G
PR501,6860475,No(-),C,C
PR503,6860780,No(-),T,T
M6545,6860799,No(-),G,G
PR504,6860805,No(-),G,G
PR505,6860812,No(-),A,A
M8970,6865490,Yes(+),G,G
PF208,6865490,Yes(+),G,G
AF6,6877771,No(-),A,A
L1284,6877771,No(-),A,A
S9562,6890135,No(-),G,G
PR704,6895593,No(-),C,C
Z6005,6895594,No(-),G,G
PR705,6895605,No(-),G,G
PR706,6895671,No(-),C,C
PR707,6895680,No(-),A,A
PR4653,6899862,No(-),C,C
PR712,6899877,No(-),A,A
PR713,6899884,No(-),A,A
PR4693,6910024,No(-),C,C
CTS641,6923525,No(-),C,C
Z2702,6923525,No(-),C,C
F892,6969270,No(-),G,G
PF5275,6969270,No(-),G,G
Z390,6969270,No(-),G,G
F54,6969303,No(-),G,G
F901,7010756,No(-),G,G
CTS810,7029330,No(-),G,G
CTS811,7029363,No(-),C,C
Z6088,7076265,No(-),G,G
CTS926,7089890,No(-),A,A
V139.1,7096454,No(-),G,G
V140,7096456,No(-),G,G
V141,7096457,No(-),A,A
Z98,7125568,No(-),G,G
CTS993,7130053,No(-),A,A
CTS1006,7137088,No(-),C,C
S1072,7145996,No(-),A,A
PF7268,7159846,No(-),C,C
CTS1070,7182034,No(-),G,G
S3356,7182034,No(-),G,G
F920,7188774,No(-),A,A
CTS1100,7206478,No(-),C,C
CTS1129,7225580,No(-),A,A
S5676,7227323,No(-),T,T
YSC0000386,7229658,No(-),A,A
S27593,7245239,No(-),T,T
M7788,7252971,No(-),A,A
Z6146,7253696,No(-),G,G
CTS1206,7269037,No(-),C,C
M956,7269037,No(-),C,C
CTS1217,7275087,Yes(+),T,T
M5597,7275087,Yes(+),T,T
CTS1226,7282885,No(-),C,C
M8542,7282885,No(-),C,C
M9505,7286862,No(-),T,T
CTS1299,7320234,No(-),C,C
S4543,7328780,No(-),G,G
Z2916,7328780,No(-),G,G
CTS1333,7345324,No(-),T,T
CTS1377,7370091,No(-),C,C
M1539,7370091,No(-),C,C
PF3357,7389903,No(-),C,C
CTS1449,7403638,No(-),A,A
YSC0000399,7403697,No(-),C,C
Z5863,7403701,No(-),G,G
PF4278,7567690,No(-),G,G
PF5602,7567739,No(-),G,G
PR986,7593811,No(-),A,A
PR987,7593815,No(-),A,A
PR988,7593845,No(-),G,G
PR989,7593854,No(-),C,C
S10381,7595118,No(-),C,C
PR994,7596917,No(-),T,T
PR995,7596935,No(-),G,G
PR996,7596944,No(-),A,A
PR997,7596961,No(-),T,T
S10396,7608436,No(-),C,C
PR1102,7654337,No(-),G,G
V239,7654353,No(-),G,G
PR1103,7654370,No(-),T,T
K511,7654384,No(-),G,G
PR1104,7654397,No(-),T,T
M7598,7684228,No(-),G,G
S3470,7685828,No(-),G,G
F1049,7698740,No(-),T,T
Z28788,7748877,No(-),G,G
M2006,7793659,No(-),A,A
Z4845,7793659,No(-),A,A
PF2108,7804308,No(-),C,C
M9002,7839683,Yes(+),A,A
M9574,7954154,No(-),C,C
S3239,8017223,No(-),G,G
S5086,8017223,No(-),G,G
M6880,8018094,No(-),A,A
Z17412,8047149,No(-),G,G
YSC0000477,8050071,No(-),T,T
Z303,8061687,No(-),G,G
PF7589,8067783,No(-),A,A
Z2118,8067783,No(-),A,A
YSC0000478,8070991,No(-),G,G
YSC0000484,8126098,No(-),G,G
F1119,8146526,No(-),G,G
Z5281,8201997,No(-),G,G
M9589,8210541,No(-),G,G
Z13355,8236342,No(-),G,G
S11284,8315073,No(-),C,C
M9020,8337827,Yes(+),C,C
PF287,8337827,Yes(+),C,C
S27175,8373972,No(-),A,A
F1174,8398700,No(-),G,G
PF7295,8402747,No(-),G,G
A41,8402779,No(-),C,C
FGC8002,8402779,No(-),C,C
S387,8425088,No(-),G,G
Z343,8425088,No(-),G,G
Y7219,8447173,No(-),C,C
M5871,8460588,No(-),T,T
S359,8469661,No(-),G,G
Z229,8469661,No(-),G,G
L1210,8469695,No(-),G,G
PF3150,8476569,No(-),T,T
F148,8497599,No(-),G,G
M1566,8497599,No(-),G,G
S7241,8505024,No(-),G,G
S11575,8506000,No(-),C,C
M2749,8537711,No(-),A,A
Z4191,8537711,No(-),A,A
PF2258,8576554,No(-),G,G
M5634,8577423,No(-),G,G
PF4141,8584164,No(-),C,C
F1332,8597392,No(-),C,C
Z1695,8597468,No(-),C,C
FGC594,8597476,No(-),G,G
Z6707,8597476,No(-),G,G
F1333,8597523,No(-),T,T
M9037,8691275,Yes(+),G,G
PR4834,8696512,No(-),T,T
PR4835,8696514,No(-),G,G
M5422,8703052,No(-),T,T
PF1561,8703052,No(-),T,T
K143,8715004,No(-),G,G
M2429,8716543,No(-),T,T
S11900,8754344,No(-),G,G
Z15471,8754382,No(-),T,T
Z15170,8759524,No(-),C,C
F1403,8770009,No(-),C,C
F1404,8770049,No(-),G,G
F1405,8770573,No(-),T,T
M1321,8782101,No(-),T,T
M2762,8798686,No(-),C,C
Z4199,8798686,No(-),C,C
F1427,8840859,No(-),G,G
M2162,8840859,No(-),G,G
Z1381,8879475,No(-),T,T
F1448,8883751,No(-),A,A
M9642,8888318,No(-),C,C
M2765,8888369,No(-),G,G
YSC0000573,8888732,No(-),A,A
S27426,8987980,Yes(+),G,G
PF4668,9008690,No(-),G,G
Z28822,9021918,No(-),A,A
PF6293,9053439,No(-),A,A
Z14691,9065626,No(-),C,C
M6905,9105968,No(-),T,T
PF5728,9376015,No(-),G,G
M10740,9425620,No(-),C,C
PF3983,9645337,No(-),A,A
S6572,9645337,No(-),A,A
S12458,9761908,No(-),G,G
Z17171,9813700,No(-),A,A
M11186,9861389,No(-),A,A
Z1542,9861451,No(-),A,A
F3698,9869534,No(-),A,A
L858,9879005,No(-),C,C
PF4851,9879005,No(-),C,C
PR4933,9879006,No(-),G,G
PR4934,9879008,No(-),T,T
PR4935,9879019,No(-),C,C
S3516,9884615,No(-),C,C
M3136,9884634,No(-),A,A
S12649,9905802,No(-),C,C
Z13370,9925638,No(-),G,G
Z6306,9931478,No(-),T,T
Z5337,9933375,No(-),G,G
YSC0000091,9986241,No(-),G,G


ISOGG Y-haplogroup


# Mutation ISOGG-Y-Haplogroup
CTS1217/M5597 = CT
M5597/CTS1217 = CT
M5782/PF1046 = CT
M5786/PF1061 = CT
M8970/PF208 = BT
M9020/PF287 = BT
M9037 = BT
M9248 = BT
M9292 = BT
M9327 = BT
M9380/PF1256 = BT
P97 = BT
PF38 = CT
PF208/M8970 = BT
PF287/M9020 = BT
PF620 = BT
PF1046/M5782 = CT
PF1061/M5786 = CT
PF1256/M9380 = BT
Y1521 = CT
Z11987 = BT
Z11997 = BT
Z12007 = BT
Z14350 = H1b2a
Z17376 = BT
Z17721 = CT

ffoucart
06-15-2018, 09:48 AM
Examples of BB burials in Iberia

From around 2000BC, so after Central Europe Bell Beakers expansion.

GASKA
06-15-2018, 10:28 AM
From around 2000BC, so after Central Europe Bell Beakers expansion.

http://www.ehu.eus/ojs/index.php/Veleia/article/viewFile/2051/1679

The oldest dating of the style Ciempozuelos are before 2.450 BC and only exists in Spain. Could not it be that P312 entered Iberia and adapted to the existing culture?

rms2
06-15-2018, 11:17 AM
Olalde not only gives up information about autosomal Dna, he also tell us many other things.

Irlbach-24 graves, "there is However NOT a single decorated BB in this cemetery". Af course all of the men P312 line. 14 tombs (women, children and men), don't have grave goods. I5655- Woman-Wide plate with horizontal handle. I5660-2 cups, four footed plate/bowl, single find tanged cooper dagger.
Alburg- 18 graves (all except nş 10 single burials), only grave 9 yields a broad metope decorated BB, and grave 18 a Non decorated handled beaker. 8 tombs (women, chidren and men) don't have grave goods. I3600.Young adult man, four footed plate bowl. I3594- 3 flints, 10 V perforated bone buttons, broad metope decorated beaker.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions, 24007

24008

24009

Examples of BB burials in Iberia

One of the problems with your posts is that you use evidence from Kurgan/Steppe/IE Bell Beaker in Iberia to claim primacy for Iberia. You don't stick just with the evidence alleged to come from the earliest C14-tested Iberian sites.

You seem to be saying, "Iberia has the first, the earliest Bell Beaker sites, and just look at this Kurgan Bell Beaker stuff from after 2500 BC to prove it!"

As for the paucity of grave goods in many Beaker graves: everyone knows the profile of an archaeological culture or horizon is cumulative and based on consistent patterns that, while they may not occur in every grave, do occur frequently enough to serve as a standard against which newly found burials can be measured.

rms2
06-15-2018, 11:37 AM
As I understand it, the reason that many believe that Bell Beaker occurred first in Iberia is because the Maritime Beaker is classed as the oldest type of Bell Beaker vessel and that pieces of Maritime Beaker pots have been found in archaeological contexts, mostly settlements, that have the oldest C14 dates. I do not know if any of those dates include burials. There are Dutch finds that are just as old if not older, but their C14 dates have been challenged.

Problems with the C14 dates are that the Beaker pottery in them may have been inserted by later people and the consumption of large quantities of fish by the people involved may be making their bones look quite a bit older than they really are.

Another problem is that Beaker pottery appears to be of a steppe pottery style, and some of the techniques used in its manufacture come from the steppe, like the use of a white bone paste.

The advocates of the Dutch Model point out that the Maritime and other types of Bell Beakers appear to be natural developments from the Corded Ware style of beaker. If one looks at a comparison of Single Grave CW beakers and BB beakers, he can see the pretty obvious similarities.

24010

GASKA
06-15-2018, 12:02 PM
One of the problems with your posts is that you use evidence from Kurgan/Steppe/IE Bell Beaker in Iberia to claim primacy for Iberia. You don't stick just with the evidence alleged to come from the earliest C14-tested Iberian sites.

You seem to be saying, "Iberia has the first, the earliest Bell Beaker sites, and just look at this Kurgan Bell Beaker stuff from after 2500 BC to prove it!"

As for the paucity of grave goods in many Beaker graves: everyone knows the profile of an archaeological culture or horizon is cumulative and based on consistent patterns that, while they may not occur in every grave, do occur frequently enough to serve as a standard against which newly found burials can be measured.

You and I could understand each other perfectly, because I don't want Iberia to be the first one in anything (archaelogically and genetically speaking). The data c14 for Ciempozuelos style are irrefutable, some Spanish archaelogists thought until recently that the technique of this style originated in Brittany as a result of this discovery dated 2.365 a.c. (abstract in english) sa.c.http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/article/view/8/8

But as burials are discovered, the chronology of Ciempozuelos style becomes older so we have to find other explanations.

Cave 7, BB burial, Valle de las higueras, Huecas (Toledo)- 2.462 a.c- BB vessels, 3 wristguards, 1 copper dagger, 1 copper awl, 1 copper spearhead type Palmela, gold ornaments, V perforated buttons and flint arrowheads. Then Ciempozuelos is a totally indigenous style.

Fuente Olmedo BB burial (image above). C14- 2.150 a.c , only this site with a copper tanged dagger, and 13 cooper spearheads type Palmela, has more cooper than all the German sites analyzed by Olalde- German BB- 144 tombs. Summary Germany-1 thin rectangular gold sheet, 4 wristguards, 2 tanged cooper dagger (1 woman burial), 4 cooper awls (all in women burials). Thats all. If you where us, what would you think?

I'm NOT against the theory of the steppes, because I think the origin of R1b is there, but I have to find explanations for its appearance in Spain and Portugal, and this explanation can't be the BB culture.

rms2
06-15-2018, 12:05 PM
"Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" wasn't a serious recommendation. But it got me to thinking. We now have something the creators of those maps and group names didn't have...ancient dna samples to assist in differentiating BB types.

To quote you

I know I'm asking basic questions here, but pre-P312 entry into Iberia is there a consistent difference between the two as it pertains to:
Grave goods? The BB packages consistently differ in items included?
Single vs collective burials? If so did the single vs collective burial distinction last right up to the arrival of P312?

This map seems to make the burial type a key distinction with the "Southern Province" of BB clearly in the collective grave tradition, and the "Eastern Province" of BB fully in the single grave tradition area. With the "Western Province" overlapping both traditions

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PSnwvRmBfDQ/VBO_j0-raLI/AAAAAAAAB98/gv3_wa8daac/s1600/beaker.JPG

So you have Single Grave-BB and Colletive Grave-BB.

Just an observation of the map. The Upper Rhine River Valley (Present day Alsace, France & Baden, Germany) appears to be where the Eastern Province reaches it's closest point to the Collective Burial tradition.

Here's another map showing the distribution of BB single graves versus that of collective graves. Of course, once Kurgan Bell Beaker arrived in the collective grave zone, single burials began occurring there, as well.

For some reason this map doesn't have anything for Britain and Ireland, but the BB tradition there was mostly single grave, often under round burial mounds (the famous "Round Barrows").

24013

GASKA
06-15-2018, 12:22 PM
As I understand it, the reason that many believe that Bell Beaker occurred first in Iberia is because the Maritime Beaker is classed as the oldest type of Bell Beaker vessel and that pieces of Maritime Beaker pots have been found in archaeological contexts, mostly settlements, that have the oldest C14 dates. I do not know if any of those dates include burials. There are Dutch finds that are just as old if not older, but their C14 dates have been challenged.

Problems with the C14 dates are that the Beaker pottery in them may have been inserted by later people and the consumption of large quantities of fish by the people involved may be making their bones look quite a bit older than they really are.

Another problem is that Beaker pottery appears to be of a steppe pottery style, and some of the techniques used in its manufacture come from the steppe, like the use of a white bone paste.

The advocates of the Dutch Model point out that the Maritime and other types of Bell Beakers appear to be natural developments from the Corded Ware style of beaker. If one looks at a comparison of Single Grave CW beakers and BB beakers, he can see the pretty obvious similarities.

24010

The use of a white bone paste is a good clue, (because it is typical of the Ciempozuelos style), but if we admit that it originates in the steppes, then we would have to advance the entry of P312 in Iberia 2.500 B.C, which is when the oldest deposists of this style appear in Iberia. The archaelogists have been discusing the origin of BB culture for 130 years and have not reached an agreement,we will not either. We trust the data of Cardoso in Portugal (2.014), but these doesn't mean anything because there are variations of this culture that sure originated in Central Europe.

rms2
06-15-2018, 01:24 PM
GASKA -

You might like the theory of the late Jean Manco, who wrote the book Ancestral Journeys, among others, in which she advanced her theory of the "Stelae People". Jean believed the Stelae People were people from the Pontic steppe who went to Iberia before the Bell Beaker period and introduced copper metallurgy and steppe pottery making techniques there. She believed they were ultimately responsible for the creation of the Bell Beaker culture in Iberia, which subsequently advanced eastward, where it met its relatives coming out of the steppe and influenced them.

Jean said one can trace the path of the Stelae People by the anthropomorphic stelae they left across Europe, from the Pontic steppe to Iberia, hence the name. I think she fully expected R1b-P312 and steppe dna to be found in pre-Beaker Iberia and in the earliest Iberian Beaker. Thus far, however, confirmation of her ideas has not come.

Jean used to be a frequent contributor to Anthrogenica, but she passed away of cancer at the end of March.