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R.Rocca
06-15-2018, 01:37 PM
If one is to use the inclusion of regional Bell Beaker material to disprove origin (which GASKA did with undecorated beakers), we have palmela points which are only found in Iberia and the Pyrenees. They are the archetype weapon of Iberian Bell Beaker.

GASKA
06-15-2018, 02:06 PM
GASKA -

You might like the theory of the late Jean Manco, who wrote the book Ancestral Journeys, among others, in which she advanced her theory of the "Stelae People". Jean believed the Stelae People were people from the Pontic steppe who went to Iberia before the Bell Beaker period and introduced copper metallurgy and steppe pottery making techniques there. She believed they were ultimately responsible for the creation of the Bell Beaker culture in Iberia, which subsequently advanced eastward, where it met its relatives coming out of the steppe and influenced them.

Jean said one can trace the path of the Stelae People by the anthropomorphic stelae they left across Europe, from the Pontic steppe to Iberia, hence the name. I think she fully expected R1b-P312 and steppe dna to be found in pre-Beaker Iberia and in the earliest Iberian Beaker. Thus far, however, confirmation of her ideas has not come.

Jean used to be a frequent contributor to Anthrogenica, but she passed away of cancer at the end of March.

I'm sorry, sure she was an intelligent woman. I will read the book. Why do you think I'm so angry about not knowing the results, of haplogroups Y in los Millares and Valencina? because I think the same as her. They were stratified cultures and specially in Valencina there are obvius similarities with Yamnaya. I would have liked to invite her to know the latest excavations at Valencina.

rms2
06-15-2018, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry, sure she was an intelligent woman. I will read the book. Why do you think I'm so angry about not knowing the results, of haplogroups Y in los Millares and Valencina? because I think the same as her. They were stratified cultures and specially in Valencina there are obvius similarities with Yamnaya. I would have liked to invite her to know the latest excavations at Valencina.

Well, that's interesting. So you actually believe that Bell Beaker was created by steppe people, but after they first moved to Iberia. You're a Mancoist.

Personally, I think Olalde et al have done irreparable damage to Jean's hypothesis. I also never thought all the stelae on the stelae trail looked like stelae from the Pontic steppe, but I'm no expert.

etrusco
06-15-2018, 03:02 PM
@GASKA

You mentioned the metope decoration. Is this a feature that is shared by all the beakers group or is limited to the southern and western diffusion zone? Thank you.

GASKA
06-15-2018, 03:24 PM
If one is to use the inclusion of regional Bell Beaker material to disprove origin (which GASKA did with undecorated beakers), we have palmela points which are only found in Iberia and the Pyrenees. They are the archetype weapon of Iberian Bell Beaker.

We have 4 styles of BB ceramic-Maritime, Geometric, Undecorated and Ciempozuelos. Maritime and geometric relate to each other, but are never found in the same sites as Ciempozuelos, however, undecorated vessels and Ciempozuelos are found together in many sites. Then there are AOC, AOO and CZM (few sites).

I'm not surprised by the high number of migrants from the BB burials in Germany, because we all know the mobility of these people. What surprises me is the poverty of the burials, it doesn't seem like people just arrived from the steppes.

I believe that if you want to look for migrations you have to think in the Khavlynsk culture. One of the rare things in the Iberian BB burials are the boar's tusk, (they are known since neolithic, but few). Khavlynsk culture is plenty of personal jewelry, beads of shell, stone and animal teeth, bracelets of stone and bone, and pendants of boar tusk. If R1b came to Central Europe 3.500 BC, that would explain why Germany is plenty of P312, 1.000 years later.

GASKA
06-15-2018, 03:47 PM
@GASKA

You mentioned the metope decoration. Is this a feature that is shared by all the beakers group or is limited to the southern and western diffusion zone? Thank you.

I think one of the shared elements in the case of Bell Beaker pottery is the metope decoration. I suppose it will also exist in Poland and Hungary but I couldn't say for sure.24019

Un saludo.

ffoucart
06-15-2018, 05:08 PM
If R1b came to Central Europe 3.500 BC, that would explain why Germany is plenty of P312, 1.000 years later.
You can forget it. Khvalynsk is Steppe Eneolithic (Wang et al.). So autosomaly something like 75% EHG+25% CHG-like

Not only there is no trace of R1b in Central Europe, but neither of an EHG+CHG Admixture, in all the samples we have before the Central European BBs. Except in Corded Ware, a Yamna offshoot.

A better possibility would be Yamna from Hungary. The Hungarian Steppe is next door to Central European BBs.

R.Rocca
06-15-2018, 06:01 PM
I think one of the shared elements in the case of Bell Beaker pottery is the metope decoration. I suppose it will also exist in Poland and Hungary but I couldn't say for sure.24019

Un saludo.

As you may know, metope decoration is not innovative to Bell Beaker. It was already in use in the Vucedol (Croatia), Remedello (N.Italy) and Fontbouisse (S.France) Copper Age cultures.

etrusco
06-15-2018, 07:54 PM
As you may know, metope decoration is not innovative to Bell Beaker. It was already in use in the Vucedol (Croatia), Remedello (N.Italy) and Fontbouisse (S.France) Copper Age cultures.


Thank you Gaska and Richard. that is what I suspected.....the origin being in Remedello or Fontbouisse, anyway two cultures strictly linked.

rms2
06-15-2018, 11:32 PM
Well, Gaska, now that I see you are a Mancoist and believe R1b-P312 in Iberia came from the steppe, I have a new respect for you and withdraw my notion that you are some sort of troll. I guess I did not really understand your perspective. I thought you were an Iberianist who couldn't let go of the idea of the FC Ice Age Refuge and that P312 originated in Iberia.

I don't agree with Jean Manco's hypothesis myself, but at least it's respectable.

I tend to think that the Maritime Beaker came to be adopted in Iberia via contact with Corded Ware at Grand Pressigny, and that what is regarded as the earliest Bell Beaker in Iberia wasn't really Bell Beaker.

I also think part of the confusion is due to naming the culture after its characteristic pots rather than after something more significant.

rms2
06-15-2018, 11:46 PM
BTW, is anyone making Bell Beaker cups for sale? I'd like to drink my beer out of a bell beaker, and perhaps have one placed in my casket once I'm dead. I doubt I could get the full-on kurgan treatment, but a beaker would be nice. B)

rms2
06-16-2018, 01:24 AM
Perhaps we could form a club or cult in which we all agree to be buried with a Bell Beaker, all of us who care anyway.

I'm in.

MitchellSince1893
06-16-2018, 02:30 AM
Perhaps we could form a club or cult in which we all agree to be buried with a Bell Beaker, all of us who care anyway.

I'm in.

Or open a Pub

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/ea/68/39ea681b26d7cf71e3aa45d96e51731e.png

dsm
06-16-2018, 04:33 AM
BTW, is anyone making Bell Beaker cups for sale? I'd like to drink my beer out of a bell beaker, and perhaps have one placed in my casket once I'm dead. I doubt I could get the full-on kurgan treatment, but a beaker would be nice. B)

Rms2, I doubt that you are *that* old :)

But, yes obtaining a good Bell Beaker replica does have appeal just as a conversation piece let alone as my cider (zyder) mug lol.

D

PS There is this potter in Dorset England - hmmm, not all that far away from Piddletrenthide (just below and near Weymouth).
http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/beakerfolk.htm

But I think he is shutting down his pottery business this year. Will check him out.

PPS I see this is the same person Razyn has linked to.

razyn
06-16-2018, 06:17 AM
BTW, is anyone making Bell Beaker cups for sale?

You asked before (five years ago) and I replied: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?818-How-and-where-did-R1b-get-into-the-Bell-Beaker-folks&p=6806&viewfull=1#post6806

In that reply, the first link still works, and has been updated as recently as 2016. The second potter's link doesn't work, now.

One of my sons and his wife are in the RenFaire business, and in order to see them (and their teenaged son) occasionally we visit one of the fairs at which they have a booth. [They tend not to go to the VARF, which I think is near you (rms2), but have done so in the past, so we have scoped that one out.] When I am around that environment there are always potters, and some of them are capable of throwing stuff as big as a bell beaker. I haven't run across any who were building them up from clay coils in the way original Bronze Age beakers were made, or firing them at the lower temperatures of wood-burning kilns. And I haven't yet found one that tempted me to the point of an actual purchase.

anglesqueville
06-16-2018, 06:41 AM
BTW, is anyone making Bell Beaker cups for sale? I'd like to drink my beer out of a bell beaker, and perhaps have one placed in my casket once I'm dead. I doubt I could get the full-on kurgan treatment, but a beaker would be nice. B)

Yeap! We have a potter on this forum and in Normandy, who makes magnificent Bell Beakers pots: helgenes50. I know that he has a lot of work at the present time but ask him.

razyn
06-16-2018, 06:56 AM
I'm going with "Sans-Iberian Bell Beaker" :P everything but Iberian Bell Beaker

Is there an actual break down of types of Bell Beaker besides the geographic ones? e.g. Southern, Eastern Group, Central Group, Maritime Group etc


I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but my assumption is that your invention "Sans-Iberian" was sort of a pun, or at least an auditory riff, on "Trans-Siberian" (normally used in reference to the long railway of that name, or a modern musical group). That sort of thing may lose its moorings when read (normally, not aloud) by persons who would not pronounce "sans" the way speakers of American English do.

But to answer your question, I excavated a reference to something by Lemercier. The first few pages may be helpful, although most of it is pretty specific to southern France. (Most of his work is in French, but this isn't.) https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1361-A-deeper-think-about-beakers-and-genes&p=15457&viewfull=1#post15457 Be forewarned, if you click on the link in that post you will get a 47 page download with a lot of illustrations.

I haven't reread this lately, but as I recall, his timeline for a beaker typology was pretty thoroughly planted within the "dogma" to which Jeunesse was objecting -- based on an assumption that the simplest examples in that form are older than the more decorated ones. And that's as may be.

anglesqueville
06-16-2018, 09:25 AM
razyn:
I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but my assumption is that your invention "Sans-Iberian" was sort of a pun, or at least an auditory riff, on "Trans-Siberian" (normally used in reference to the long railway of that name, or a modern musical group). That sort of thing may lose its moorings when read (normally, not aloud) by persons who would not pronounce "sans" the way speakers of American English do.

I wondered whether this "Sans-Iberian" could not be some sort of french coquetry, as I've been told that some Americans find the French language "sexy". The evocation of the "Trans-Siberian" is much funnier, and maybe more than funny if we think of the ultimate siberian origins of some ancestral lines of the Beakers (ANE, Ural, etc). :)

rms2
06-16-2018, 12:06 PM
You asked before (five years ago) and I replied: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?818-How-and-where-did-R1b-get-into-the-Bell-Beaker-folks&p=6806&viewfull=1#post6806

In that reply, the first link still works, and has been updated as recently as 2016. The second potter's link doesn't work, now.

One of my sons and his wife are in the RenFaire business, and in order to see them (and their teenaged son) occasionally we visit one of the fairs at which they have a booth. [They tend not to go to the VARF, which I think is near you (rms2), but have done so in the past, so we have scoped that one out.] When I am around that environment there are always potters, and some of them are capable of throwing stuff as big as a bell beaker. I haven't run across any who were building them up from clay coils in the way original Bronze Age beakers were made, or firing them at the lower temperatures of wood-burning kilns. And I haven't yet found one that tempted me to the point of an actual purchase.

I do remember that first guy now, but I never could find a link to order online, and the guy is in the UK, which is probably why I forgot about him. Nice looking beakers though.

We do occasionally visit the Virginia Renaissance Faire. We went last summer I think (but sometimes the years blur together). It's fun, but - damn! - their beer is expensive, and I always have to have at least two.

razyn
06-16-2018, 01:14 PM
We do occasionally visit the Virginia Renaissance Faire. We went last summer I think (but sometimes the years blur together). It's fun, but - damn! - their beer is expensive, and I always have to have at least two.
I feel your pain. IIRC that's Heavy Seas beer, a decent craft brewery in Baltimore with a pirate theme. Arrr. I wouldn't say no to another beaker of it, though it's still a bit early in my day for that.

Our descendants run a booth called Arte of the Booke. At the VARF it was housed in a big tent that my son has to erect and strike, and that was getting to be too hard on his middle aged back. (It was originally used at larger weekend events of the Society for Creative Anachronism.) They have a more elaborate presence in permanent structures at the [North] Carolina and Georgia faires, and at Bristol Faire in Wisconsin. Longer drives (from Roanoke) but bigger sales.

Now back to your regular, Bronze Age programming.

MitchellSince1893
06-16-2018, 02:06 PM
I don't think anybody has mentioned it, but my assumption is that your invention "Sans-Iberian" was sort of a pun, or at least an auditory riff, on "Trans-Siberian" (normally used in reference to the long railway of that name, or a modern musical group). That sort of thing may lose its moorings when read (normally, not aloud) by persons who would not pronounce "sans" the way speakers of American English do.
Honestly I didn’t even think about Trans-Siberian but I think my subconscious mind thought it had a familiar ring to it.

From a steppe perspective I guess Trans-Siberian and “sans Iberian” are synonymous :)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-16-2018, 04:59 PM
Isn't Sans French for "without"?

rms2
06-16-2018, 05:09 PM
Isn't Sans French for "without"?

Yeah, I think in this case intended to be thought of as Beaker-minus-Iberian Beaker, in other words, non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

Romilius
06-16-2018, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I think in this case intended to be thought of as Beaker-minus-Iberian Beaker, in other words, non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

Out of interest... but at last did professor Khokhlov answer to your email?

caithne
06-16-2018, 10:17 PM
Some Beaker Culture statistics from Origins of the Irish 2013 by J.P. Mallory. 213 sites with Beakers, 40 individual Beaker burials, 2,000 flat axes (Austria 243, Denmark 600, Iberia 893) 100 wristguards most from Co. Antrim (Brittany 6 wristguards, Portugal 20) and some statistics from Early Bronze Age Halberds in Ireland 2002 by R. O'Flaherty of 589 Halberds from European Countries dated 2200-1700bc 186 are from Ireland (96 Germany East, 65 Britain, 64 Spain, 45 France, 32 Italy, 20 Denmark, 12 Portugal, 12 Poland, 10 Sweden, 8 Germany West, 8 Greece, 7 Austria, 6 Switzerland, 6 Hungary, former Yugoslavia 4, Netherlands 2, Lithuania 2, Romania 2 gold, Belgium 1, Morocco 1. Are these figures now out of date? Any updates?

rms2
06-17-2018, 02:09 AM
Out of interest... but at last did professor Khokhlov answer to your email?

No, and my wife hasn't asked her surgeon cousin to contact him either. She said she might know someone else who can get a response from him, but I'll have to bug her about it. It's not something that matters much to her, so there's not a lot of motivation.

GoldenHind
06-17-2018, 02:54 AM
Isn't Sans French for "without"?

Is your avatar photo of the entry to Kilpeck church in Herefordshire?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-17-2018, 07:21 AM
Is your avatar photo of the entry to Kilpeck church in Herefordshire?

Yes it is. I've been to the church quite a few times. Our paternal "Y" line is from that general area. It looks possible that our paternal line has a Norman or at least Scandinavian origin.

anglesqueville
06-17-2018, 08:07 AM
Yes it is. I've been to the church quite a few times. Our paternal "Y" line is from that general area. It looks possible that our paternal line has a Norman or at least Scandinavian origin.

You could have chosen, from Kilpeck Church, the Sheela Na Gig figure ... Did you fear the censure?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-17-2018, 09:37 AM
You could have chosen, from Kilpeck Church, the Sheela Na Gig figure ... Did you fear the censure?

No, there are many I could have chosen. :) I just admire the quality of the carving of the door portals and the skill required. There were stone masons in my family. I suppose it's a small personal tribute to the skill of the mason. :) The church seems to have various cultural influences celtic, Anglo Saxon and supposedly Scandinavian, which is partly what makes it interesting to me. It's remarkable and fortunate that so much has survived.

jdean
06-17-2018, 10:45 AM
You could have chosen, from Kilpeck Church, the Sheela Na Gig figure ... Did you fear the censure?

I go past often enough but never seem to have time to stop by, however my pick would be Gromit & Miffy : )

24063

dsm
06-17-2018, 10:59 AM
I go past often enough but never seem to have time to stop by, however my pick would be Gromit & Miffy : )

24063

The work of an inspired genius. But is there a sculpture of Gromit with Wallace?. (a true yorkish Scandinavian - this will be proven when Wallace gets his DNA analysed). :)

PS Wendolene, is IMHO, a certainty also, for Scandinavian origins.

alan
06-17-2018, 12:28 PM
I honestly think it’s time for a review of the pre-2550BC Iberian beaker dates. How many come from totally safe closed contexts that were one time deposits in single phase features that we not open to disturbance? If not, how sure can we be that the pot is linked to the bones? Also all of the oldest dates from human bone need isotope tested to checked they had a diet with significant fish/shellfish element which can cause marine and fresh water reservoir effect which can push radiocarbon dates artificially back several centuries. Dates on charcoal are always risking old wood effect too. I honestly think to date the beaker presence in Iberia you need to stick to one phase single graves and then isotope test the bones you are radiocarbon dating. It’s high time there was a review of all the pre- 2500BC dates. Take no date on human bones at face value without isotope analysis

Dewsloth
06-17-2018, 03:37 PM
Yeah, I think in this case intended to be thought of as Beaker-minus-Iberian Beaker, in other words, non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

NIBBs! :)

etrusco
06-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Or in " Anglish" Iberianless Bell Beaker

GoldenHind
06-17-2018, 06:03 PM
No, there are many I could have chosen. :) I just admire the quality of the carving of the door portals and the skill required. There were stone masons in my family. I suppose it's a small personal tribute to the skill of the mason. :) The church seems to have various cultural influences celtic, Anglo Saxon and supposedly Scandinavian, which is partly what makes it interesting to me. It's remarkable and fortunate that so much has survived.

It is a riot of decoration. Undoubtedly the most unusual and probably the best Norman parish church in England. I especially like the projecting dragon heads. The Sheela Na Gig figure always causes a chuckle.

But we are straying off topic.

anglesqueville
06-17-2018, 08:07 PM
Is it anyone who would dare to post a picture of Sheela? Seriously, I love Kilpeck, not because it's a norman church, but mostly because of Sheela, Gromit and Miffy! Btw Sheela Na Gig would deserve a thread ( fascinating relatedness with the greek Baubô, the Japanese Ame no Uzume). Very far from the topic of this thread, but this thread has for a long time become a contest of off-topic, no?

razyn
06-17-2018, 08:38 PM
But we are straying off topic.

Curiosity got the better of me and I went back to the OP to see what the topic was, beyond the thread caption (which seems to carry an implied question mark, at least for many who have boosted the number of posts over a thousand). Here's the actual question:



So we have a very early Yamnaya/Bell Beaker man in Bleckendorf, Saxony-Anhalt, we have a very early R-M343+ man in Kromsdorf, Saxony-Anhalt and we have two later L11+ Bell Beaker samples from Quedlinburg, Saxony-Anhalt (I0805 and I0806). So, that raises the question... was Saxony-Anhalt the main expansion area for L11 and/or P312?

I don't think the answer has been a very enthusiastic "yes;" but we have a lot of hints now that we didn't have in March. Anyway, how about (for purposes of staying on topic) broadening the region from "Saxony-Anhalt" to the Elbe River watershed? That would catch some other places that look like important genetic reservoirs, at least of a significant chapter in the story. It would e.g. catch the Prague area, and with it a majority of those Bronze Age U152>L2 guys, who are currently skewing what we know (so far) about early P312 in central Europe.

The comparatively direct Danube-to-Rhine connection looks tempting on a map, and Europeans have known that for quite a long time. But the L11 phylogeny has a longer timeline than Europe's written history, and when these guys were coming over from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, some other paths may have looked better to them. Or to their horses. Whatever.

I've been advocating the river routes for several years on these forums, talking about sewn plank boats, and so on. I don't think that was exactly misguided; it had to happen, and did happen. But boats weren't necessary for the big northern rivers of the steppe (especially) to be preferred routes. For about half the year, they are frozen, and people can walk across. Wild herds migrate across. Except at major rapids, the ice is really thick. I'm from Tennessee, and don't normally think about water and concrete in the same way.

dsm
06-17-2018, 10:27 PM
Short note to say I contacted Bill Crumbleholm (Beaker Folk Pottery - Upwey Dorset England) to ask if he was still in business or if any of his people were. After 3 days I have no reply so suspect he may have retired. I did see a note at one link saying he was shutting down in 2018 & his web material was being moved to another nearby group.

His work was very authentic and appealing. I have DNA related friends close by enough (in Somerset) that I would have bought a few of Bill's beakers through them just as appealing ornaments. Still hoping he will reply.

D

razyn
06-17-2018, 10:44 PM
Yesterday I had followed a link on his website and found that he has a July firing planned (his last firing was in May 2018, and there are many photos from the process). I wrote to him, also. Invited him to our discussion, etc.

http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/wood-kiln/WodenFiring23.htm

dsm
06-18-2018, 09:06 AM
Yesterday I had followed a link on his website and found that he has a July firing planned (his last firing was in May 2018, and there are many photos from the process). I wrote to him, also. Invited him to our discussion, etc.

http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/wood-kiln/WodenFiring23.htm

Very good that Bill is still active, pity he doesn't respond to emails but am hoping it is just a matter of other priorities.
One of my family lines (father's) left England from close by to Bill's Upwey (from Puddletown just east of Dorchester),
back in 1879 to settle in NZ. Every paternal ancestor of mine (incl self) have been back to say hello to the family that
remained there.

The photo set they posted are excellent and highly informative. Thanks for that link.

Am even keener to buy one of Bill's creations as a 'scrumpy mug' Just for I self, oh arr.

D

MikeWhalen
06-18-2018, 12:01 PM
I found this link, I know nothing about the place but they do some nice looking historical stuff, some later 'bell beaker' type things, along with many other older cultures (romans and such)

http://historicalglassworks.com/

they don't seem to make the kind of oldest bell beaker stuff some of you are talking about, and they mostly do glass vs clay it seems, but they also very clearly do special orders and they might be interested in finding a lucrative niche market

anyway, an interesting side trip this conversation has taken
:)

MIke

alan
06-18-2018, 12:48 PM
I think we are still hamstrung by the sheer speed of the spread of beaker and the significant limitations of radiocarbon dating when you are dealing with less than a century - especially bearing in mind the many potential things that can make radiocarbon dates innacurate.

In terms of DNA one of the things that I think is overlooked is that ALL P312 is linked to the beaker people in ancient DNA. It seems likely that the TMRCA of this P312 is older than beaker. So wherever P312 arose, it’s descendants stayed together until the beaker culture gave them an identity to track them archaeologically. This suggests the descendents of the TMRCA of P312 operated as a large clan sharing the beaker cultur . The longer the period between the P312 and the appearance of the beaker culture the more mysterious it is because somehow they must have stayed together in one area or group through that time.

Webb
06-18-2018, 01:05 PM
BTW, is anyone making Bell Beaker cups for sale? I'd like to drink my beer out of a bell beaker, and perhaps have one placed in my casket once I'm dead. I doubt I could get the full-on kurgan treatment, but a beaker would be nice. B)

My brother is a master potter and art teacher at Potomac Senior High School. He could make you a beaker pot. In fact they are attempting to open one of those art/brew pubs in Fredericksburg, where you can drink and make art. The art becomes worse as the night progresses.

rms2
06-18-2018, 11:20 PM
I think we are still hamstrung by the sheer speed of the spread of beaker and the significant limitations of radiocarbon dating when you are dealing with less than a century - especially bearing in mind the many potential things that can make radiocarbon dates innacurate.

In terms of DNA one of the things that I think is overlooked is that ALL P312 is linked to the beaker people in ancient DNA. It seems likely that the TMRCA of this P312 is older than beaker. So wherever P312 arose, it’s descendants stayed together until the beaker culture gave them an identity to track them archaeologically. This suggests the descendents of the TMRCA of P312 operated as a large clan sharing the beaker cultur . The longer the period between the P312 and the appearance of the beaker culture the more mysterious it is because somehow they must have stayed together in one area or group through that time.

I am still really puzzled by what Alexei Butin reported back on 27 January from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would lie about it or get such simple things wrong. If his report was accurate, it means R1b-P312 has been found in Khvalynsk on the steppe at Ekaterinovsky Cape, which he said dates to the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC. That seems too old, but who knows. The fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC would be from 4250-4000 BC. That makes P312 older than we generally think it is, but IMHO that's not too outrageous.

Maybe it's all a mistake, but I wonder. The fact that those skeletons were supposedly Uraloid/Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) might explain some of the tendency toward brachycephaly seen later in Bell Beaker, but maybe that's a stretch, because we're talking an almost 2,000-year difference.

dsm
06-19-2018, 07:55 AM
I am still really puzzled by what Alexei Butin reported back on 27 January from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would lie about it or get such simple things wrong. If his report was accurate, it means R1b-P312 has been found in Khvalynsk on the steppe at Ekaterinovsky Cape, which he said dates to the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC. That seems too old, but who knows. The fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC would be from 4250-4000 BC. That makes P312 older than we generally think it is, but IMHO that's not too outrageous.

Maybe it's all a mistake, but I wonder. The fact that those skeletons were supposedly Uraloid/Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) might explain some of the tendency toward brachycephaly seen later in Bell Beaker, but maybe that's a stretch, because we're talking an almost 2,000-year difference.

If we accept that Iain MacDonald (U106 project) is doing a really good analysis as to age of R1b-U106. Then we have to accept that R1b-P312 originated in the Steppes and that we are in for a few surprises if only someone can find them !.

D

Romilius
06-19-2018, 01:40 PM
I am still really puzzled by what Alexei Butin reported back on 27 January from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would lie about it or get such simple things wrong. If his report was accurate, it means R1b-P312 has been found in Khvalynsk on the steppe at Ekaterinovsky Cape, which he said dates to the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC. That seems too old, but who knows. The fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC would be from 4250-4000 BC. That makes P312 older than we generally think it is, but IMHO that's not too outrageous.

Maybe it's all a mistake, but I wonder. The fact that those skeletons were supposedly Uraloid/Uralid (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html) might explain some of the tendency toward brachycephaly seen later in Bell Beaker, but maybe that's a stretch, because we're talking an almost 2,000-year difference.

Carlos Quiles spoke about a book by Khokhlov in summer... and about results from Khvalynsk in about one year... I don't know what to think...

GASKA
06-19-2018, 01:46 PM
Well, that's interesting. So you actually believe that Bell Beaker was created by steppe people, but after they first moved to Iberia. You're a Mancoist.

Personally, I think Olalde et al have done irreparable damage to Jean's hypothesis. I also never thought all the stelae on the stelae trail looked like stelae from the Pontic steppe, but I'm no expert.

Copper metallurgy in Iberia, is totally different from that of the Balkans or the steppes, because until the Bronze Age (2.000 BC), the annealing technique was never used (only the cold forge), then if Manco thought that, she was wrong. This has been proven by Archeometallurgy even with BB burials in Hungary (Bekasmegyer) and Spain (Ciempozuelos and Humanejos burials (daggers manufactured without annealing). Then P312, didn't bring to Spain neither the ceramic, nor the metallurgy, it could only enter, into movements of population related to the trade, and this we will know when they publish the results I told you.

BB culture was not created by the people of the steppes, unless they arrived by ship to Portugal before 2.750 BC.

On thing is the Bb culture and it's package (which was known and used in Iberia, 500 years before than in Central Europe), and another thing the ideology that accompanies the later moments of this culture.

rms2
06-19-2018, 01:49 PM
So you think copper metallurgy arose independently in Iberia?

I know it predates BB there, but I also do not think Bell Beaker originated in Iberia.

GASKA
06-19-2018, 01:51 PM
If we accept that Iain MacDonald (U106 project) is doing a really good analysis as to age of R1b-U106. Then we have to accept that R1b-P312 originated in the Steppes and that we are in for a few surprises if only someone can find them !.

D

P312 originating in the steppes, at the moment, doesn't make any sense, because the ancient dna places it in the Rhine valley (Alsace) or Saxony, regions that are not very far from the Cantabrian-Franco region, proposed by Spanish researchers. When they find P312 in Yamnaya we will change our opinion.

rms2
06-19-2018, 02:03 PM
P312 originating in the steppes, at the moment, doesn't make any sense, because the ancient dna places it in the Rhine valley (Alsace) or Saxony, regions that are not very far from the Cantabrian-Franco region, proposed by Spanish researchers. When they find P312 in Yamnaya we will change our opinion.

Except the P312 in central Europe wasn't merely P312*, it was already L2 and DF27 at least, and the P312 in Britain (which came from central Europe) was DF13 at least.

If the report by Alexei Butin from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference was right, then P312 has already been found in Khvalynsk c. 4250-4000 BC.

P312 did not arise in the Franco-Cantabrian region.

GASKA
06-19-2018, 02:11 PM
So you think copper metallurgy arose independently in Iberia?

I know it predates BB there, but I also do not think Bell Beaker originated in Iberia.

The Spanish archaelogists have shown that the cooper metallurgy arose independently in Iberia, and this is not a special reason for pride, because the technique used in cooper work is more primitive than in the Balkans. The absence of the annealing, prevented making decorative objects (much thinner), and only tools and weapons were manufactured. The most important thing is that the technique didn't change during the period of greatest splendor of the BB culture (at least in Spain), then nobody introduce any new metallurgical technique in Iberia.

It would be interesting to do studies of archeometallurgy in German, English and Spanish sites, this would help to know if there were population movements.

Don't worry so much about the origin of BB culture, it is clear that there wer local variations in many places in Europe (we are talking about a period of 900 years), so the important thing is the ideology, not the vessels.

GASKA
06-19-2018, 02:21 PM
Except the P312 in central Europe wasn't merely P312*, it was already L2 and DF27 at least, and the P312 in Britain (which came from central Europe) was DF13 at least.

If the report by Alexei Butin from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference was right, then P312 has already been found in Khvalynsk c. 4250-4000 BC.

P312 did not arise in the Franco-Cantabrian region.

I already said that Khvalynsk is archaelogically an acceptable possibility (boar's tusk....) but is a neolithic culture, if P312 is there, then you have to relate his arrival to Central Europe in one of the first two waves mentioned by Gimbutas, not in the third. That would be acceptable.

rms2
06-19-2018, 02:26 PM
I already said that Khvalynsk is archaelogically an acceptable possibility (boar's tusk....) but is a neolithic culture, if P312 is there, then you have to relate his arrival to Central Europe in one of the first two waves mentioned by Gimbutas, not in the third. That would be acceptable.

Not necessarily. If P312 was in Khvalynsk in the last quarter of the 5th millennium BC, then it probably contributed to the Yamnaya cultural horizon and may not have been part of Wave 1 or Wave 2. Of course, it could have also been involved in one or both of those first two waves.

GASKA
06-19-2018, 02:40 PM
Not necessarily. If P312 was in Khvalynsk in the last quarter of the 5th millennium BC, then it probably contributed to the Yamnaya cultural horizon and may not have been part of Wave 1 or Wave 2. Of course, it could have also been involved in one or both of those first two waves.

Of course Khvalynsk contributed Yamna horizon- Ochre-Single burials (not all. also doubles, and "family burials)-Horse, cattle remains. What happens is that it's difficult to imagine how P312 dodged the CWC and GAC cultures to reach Central europe, because it seems clear that a compact puplation of L11/P312 is needed to be able to originate all it's subclades in that region. If P312 travel with other haplogroups, how could they stay together? I cannot explain it.

rms2
06-19-2018, 02:57 PM
Of course Khvalynsk contributed Yamna horizon- Ochre-Single burials (not all. also doubles, and "family burials)-Horse, cattle remains. What happens is that it's difficult to imagine how P312 dodged the CWC and GAC cultures to reach Central europe, because it seems clear that a compact puplation of L11/P312 is needed to be able to originate all it's subclades in that region. If P312 travel with other haplogroups, how could they stay together? I cannot explain it.

It seems to me the different units of the Yamnaya cultural horizon were clan-based, and the clan was centered on kinship along the male line. Thus clans differed in their paternal lines. The groups that formed Corded Ware were mostly R1a, while those that became Bell Beaker were mostly R1b. GAC was primarily a Neolithic farmer culture and did not originate on the steppe.

If the pre-Beaker culture was Budzhak (a Yamnaya subgroup from the NW Black Sea coast), then its path was north from the Black Sea coast up the Prut and Dniester valleys, then around the northern slopes of the Carpathians and/or down the Tisza River valley into east central Europe.

Of course, that's speculation. Budzhak might not have been the pre-Beaker culture. It's just that it had some characteristics that were very Beaker-like.

GoldenHind
06-19-2018, 10:46 PM
Curiosity got the better of me and I went back to the OP to see what the topic was, beyond the thread caption (which seems to carry an implied question mark, at least for many who have boosted the number of posts over a thousand). Here's the actual question:



I don't think the answer has been a very enthusiastic "yes;" but we have a lot of hints now that we didn't have in March. Anyway, how about (for purposes of staying on topic) broadening the region from "Saxony-Anhalt" to the Elbe River watershed? That would catch some other places that look like important genetic reservoirs, at least of a significant chapter in the story. It would e.g. catch the Prague area, and with it a majority of those Bronze Age U152>L2 guys, who are currently skewing what we know (so far) about early P312 in central Europe.

The comparatively direct Danube-to-Rhine connection looks tempting on a map, and Europeans have known that for quite a long time. But the L11 phylogeny has a longer timeline than Europe's written history, and when these guys were coming over from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, some other paths may have looked better to them. Or to their horses. Whatever.

I've been advocating the river routes for several years on these forums, talking about sewn plank boats, and so on. I don't think that was exactly misguided; it had to happen, and did happen. But boats weren't necessary for the big northern rivers of the steppe (especially) to be preferred routes. For about half the year, they are frozen, and people can walk across. Wild herds migrate across. Except at major rapids, the ice is really thick. I'm from Tennessee, and don't normally think about water and concrete in the same way.

One needs to remember there were Beaker settlements on the Oder and Vistula rivers. While they could be the result of a reflux movement, I do not think one should disregard the possibility that they split off in a northerly direction prior to the majority of Beakers reaching central Germany as they moved west. This would fit nicely with a P312 origin on or near the steppes. It could also help to explain why P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99 are rare to non-existent along the Atlantic fringe.

ADW_1981
06-19-2018, 11:26 PM
P312 originating in the steppes, at the moment, doesn't make any sense, because the ancient dna places it in the Rhine valley (Alsace) or Saxony, regions that are not very far from the Cantabrian-Franco region, proposed by Spanish researchers. When they find P312 in Yamnaya we will change our opinion.

Maybe but maybe not. The Y lines of the steppes today are not like they were before. There was a massive resurgence of R1a moving east across the steppes in the late Bronze age, and many different migrations of eastern Asian and central Asian ones moving west after that period to the medieval period. I wouldn't rule anything out.

alan
06-20-2018, 12:08 AM
There is no classic cultural trail or wave from the steppes to where the first beakers appear in Germany other than the CW culture. It simply is the only culture that fills the geography between the steppes and Germany. It is genetically clearly of steppe origin. That is why I can never quite throw out the possibility that beaker essentially was an unusual subject within CW. As others have pointed out, there are unusual CW groups who do have characteristics that resemble beaker culture. Like the Malopolska CW and indeed some other groups on the periphery of CW like Middle Dnieper and south Baltic CW have some burial practices that resemble beaker. It is possible IMO that beaker emerged in these easterly CW groups and spread west into Germany as a sort of a second wave or a conflict within CW itself.

dsm
06-20-2018, 03:29 AM
It seems to me the different units of the Yamnaya cultural horizon were clan-based, and the clan was centered on kinship along the male line. Thus clans differed in their paternal lines. The groups that formed Corded Ware were mostly R1a, while those that became Bell Beaker were mostly R1b. GAC was primarily a Neolithic farmer culture and did not originate on the steppe.

If the pre-Beaker culture was Budzhak (a Yamnaya subgroup from the NW Black Sea coast), then its path was north from the Black Sea coast up the Prut and Dniester valleys, then around the northern slopes of the Carpathians and/or down the Tisza River valley into east central Europe.

Of course, that's speculation. Budzhak might not have been the pre-Beaker culture. It's just that it had some characteristics that were very Beaker-like.

Absolutely a very good scenario. The clan nature of the Yamnaya has to be so evident in the R1a & R1b splits. Then the dominant splits particularly within R1b. It is not unreasonable to consider R1b-U106 migrating up the northern slopes of the Carpathians and perhaps (am waiting for the aDNA evidence) R1b-P312 went up the Danube and on to the Rhine. Two clans who remained pretty much apart for millennia. We already can see similar separate migrations from the Steppes with Northern Yamnaya being R1a and Southern Yamnaya being R1b. P312 originating in Iberia requires to many leaps of logic.

razyn
06-20-2018, 03:32 AM
It is possible IMO that beaker emerged in these easterly CW groups and spread west into Germany as a sort of a second wave or a conflict within CW itself.
Something in the DNA of archaeologists makes that sentence look like rebellious pottery was rising up against its domineering majority pottery. Not meaning to blame Alan for the way cultural horizons have been named after stuff that didn't biodegrade.

dsm
06-20-2018, 05:14 AM
One needs to remember there were Beaker settlements on the Oder and Vistula rivers. While they could be the result of a reflux movement, I do not think one should disregard the possibility that they split off in a northerly direction prior to the majority of Beakers reaching central Germany as they moved west. This would fit nicely with a P312 origin on or near the steppes. It could also help to explain why P312 subclades L238, DF19 and DF99 are rare to non-existent along the Atlantic fringe.

That is a good point re DF99. As you say rare on the Atlantic. And from what I understand DF99 is one of the very old P312 sub-clades. And is (IIRC) strong on the Baltic coast in Nth Germany & Poland.

D

GASKA
06-20-2018, 06:43 AM
There is no classic cultural trail or wave from the steppes to where the first beakers appear in Germany other than the CW culture. It simply is the only culture that fills the geography between the steppes and Germany. It is genetically clearly of steppe origin. That is why I can never quite throw out the possibility that beaker essentially was an unusual subject within CW. As others have pointed out, there are unusual CW groups who do have characteristics that resemble beaker culture. Like the Malopolska CW and indeed some other groups on the periphery of CW like Middle Dnieper and south Baltic CW have some burial practices that resemble beaker. It is possible IMO that beaker emerged in these easterly CW groups and spread west into Germany as a sort of a second wave or a conflict within CW itself.

https://fphil.uniba.sk/fileadmin/fif/katedry_pracoviska/karch/MusArch/1_1/59-80.pdf

GASKA
06-20-2018, 07:48 AM
It seems clear that CW and BB cultures are borderlines, that they even just coincide in time, and that they use different types of wheat for cultivation. However there was a small interaction between them, because 2 burials have been found with objects from the 2 cultures. That is, Beakers were not an unusual subject within CW (neither archeologically nor genetically speaking), at least in Germany, beakers were imposed on the CW and gave rise to settelments of the German Bronze Age.

Regarding small cultures on the periphery of CW (Malopolska, Middle Dnieper or South Baltic), they may have some similar burial practices, but at least to my Knowledge, they don't have the typical BB package.

etrusco
06-20-2018, 09:02 AM
I found these two papers on BBC in Poland


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwin282_7eHbAhWBMBQKHSMQC2AQFgg6MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F2022469%2FNort hern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland&usg=AOvVaw35rF1x_WDDV9XijuVTeexK

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiVzq6H7-HbAhUBrRQKHbt1BxsQFggwMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F31562939%2FRIT UAL_FEATURES_OF_BELL_BEAKERS_IN_SUPRA%25C5%259AL._ THE_OFFERING_TAKING_POSSESSION_OF_THE_LAND_OR_CULT URAL_INTEGRATION&usg=AOvVaw1tR_ZSnQUT7zPTI44CAETA

@GASKA

Also on bellbeakerblogger I came up with this sentence ( he's talking about BBC in Poland):

"It is possible that a significant maternal substrate from the Beakers continues within the Northeast (Poland, Belarus and Northwest Russia) being that maternal lineages of apparent Iberian origin are strong within this region"

Do you know more about these maternal lineages in Poland-Belarus-NW Russia?

rms2
06-20-2018, 11:44 AM
If "maternal lineages of apparent Iberian origin are strong within this region" (i.e., Poland, Belarus and Northwest Russia), they sure didn't make much of a dent autosomally, because Olalde et al found no decipherable evidence of Iberian ancestry in non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

I get the impression that the Bell Beaker Blogger has a soft spot in his heart for the Spanish Model, despite the evidence.

GASKA
06-20-2018, 11:57 AM
I found these two papers on BBC in Poland


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwin282_7eHbAhWBMBQKHSMQC2AQFgg6MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F2022469%2FNort hern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland&usg=AOvVaw35rF1x_WDDV9XijuVTeexK

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiVzq6H7-HbAhUBrRQKHbt1BxsQFggwMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academia.edu%2F31562939%2FRIT UAL_FEATURES_OF_BELL_BEAKERS_IN_SUPRA%25C5%259AL._ THE_OFFERING_TAKING_POSSESSION_OF_THE_LAND_OR_CULT URAL_INTEGRATION&usg=AOvVaw1tR_ZSnQUT7zPTI44CAETA

@GASKA

Also on bellbeakerblogger I came up with this sentence ( he's talking about BBC in Poland):

"It is possible that a significant maternal substrate from the Beakers continues within the Northeast (Poland, Belarus and Northwest Russia) being that maternal lineages of apparent Iberian origin are strong within this region"

Do you know more about these maternal lineages in Poland-Belarus-NW Russia?

The papers are very interesting, and the resemblance to Iberian burial rituals is very large (family burials....). regarding the mitochondrial haplogroups I didn't Know anything about Poland, but the same happens in Germany and Switzerland, so it starts to be something more than a coincidence. We'll see.

Off topic- What happens with Salvini, will he continue to send us ships?

etrusco
06-20-2018, 02:42 PM
Off topic- What happens with Salvini, will he continue to send us ships?[/QUOTE]

I think the new italian government is no more willing to accept all the migrants coming from Africa. It's been three years that this is going and it has become unsustainable ( Italy scores high in youth unemployment). Also given the fact that other countries ( France and Austria ....not to mention Switzerland, but they are not in the EU) are closing the borders to "economic migrants". So I think more ships will be sailing towards spanish coasts.
Immigration is a big problem that risks to tear apart the EU. You have got to balance the christian and common sense principle of taking care but to also to be realistic. I have spoken with many of these immigrants. They sold everything to buy the trip to europe from evil gangs that exploit them. We need to create in Africa better living conditions and improve their economies... as Pope Benedict said there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country ( and look..... the same people that yell against Salvini are the globalists that led all the wars that created this mess both in Africa and the Middle east...kind of hypocrites). Sorry for this rant but that is what I think.

GASKA
06-20-2018, 03:12 PM
Off topic- What happens with Salvini, will he continue to send us ships?

I think the new italian government is no more willing to accept all the migrants coming from Africa. It's been three years that this is going and it has become unsustainable ( Italy scores high in youth unemployment). Also given the fact that other countries ( France and Austria ....not to mention Switzerland, but they are not in the EU) are closing the borders to "economic migrants". So I think more ships will be sailing towards spanish coasts.
Immigration is a big problem that risks to tear apart the EU. You have got to balance the christian and common sense principle of taking care but to also to be realistic. I have spoken with many of these immigrants. They sold everything to buy the trip to europe from evil gangs that exploit them. We need to create in Africa better living conditions and improve their economies... as Pope Benedict said there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country ( and look..... the same people that yell against Salvini are the globalists that led all the wars that created this mess both in Africa and the Middle east...kind of hypocrites). Sorry for this rant but that is what I think.[/QUOTE]

Well, I hope Mrs Merkel reacts, because we rescued more than 1.000 last week. Europe can not allow these people to die in the sea. Pope Benedict are right.

rms2
06-20-2018, 03:16 PM
I have some pretty strong opinions on the subject of immigration, but maybe we could stick with those 3rd millennium BC immigrants, the Bell Beaker people.

etrusco
06-20-2018, 03:29 PM
I think the new italian government is no more willing to accept all the migrants coming from Africa. It's been three years that this is going and it has become unsustainable ( Italy scores high in youth unemployment). Also given the fact that other countries ( France and Austria ....not to mention Switzerland, but they are not in the EU) are closing the borders to "economic migrants". So I think more ships will be sailing towards spanish coasts.
Immigration is a big problem that risks to tear apart the EU. You have got to balance the christian and common sense principle of taking care but to also to be realistic. I have spoken with many of these immigrants. They sold everything to buy the trip to europe from evil gangs that exploit them. We need to create in Africa better living conditions and improve their economies... as Pope Benedict said there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country ( and look..... the same people that yell against Salvini are the globalists that led all the wars that created this mess both in Africa and the Middle east...kind of hypocrites). Sorry for this rant but that is what I think.

Well, I hope Mrs Merkel reacts, because we rescued more than 1.000 last week. Europe can not allow these people to die in the sea. Pope Benedict are right.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify when I mentioned Pope ( emerit) Benedict XVI the quote was the entire sentence " there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country" so not only the first part . Maybe you already get it but anyway better to be precise. No intention whatsoever to make him contradict what Pope Francis says however.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP17ffzuLbAhVEthQKHTfpCIwQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2F2012%2F10%2F29% 2Fvaticaninsider%2Feng%2Fthe-vatican%2Fpope-not-emigrating-is-also-a-human-right-Dymu44FKGlxqZJgEcJl9oM%2Fpagina.html&usg=AOvVaw1cGZ7oAQ4JP5KT3HrA-Bwp

Romilius
06-20-2018, 04:06 PM
Well, I hope Mrs Merkel reacts, because we rescued more than 1.000 last week. Europe can not allow these people to die in the sea. Pope Benedict are right.

Just to clarify when I mentioned Pope ( emerit) Benedict XVI the quote was the entire sentence " there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country" so not only the first part . Maybe you already get it but anyway better to be precise. No intention whatsoever to make him contradict what Pope Francis says however.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP17ffzuLbAhVEthQKHTfpCIwQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2F2012%2F10%2F29% 2Fvaticaninsider%2Feng%2Fthe-vatican%2Fpope-not-emigrating-is-also-a-human-right-Dymu44FKGlxqZJgEcJl9oM%2Fpagina.html&usg=AOvVaw1cGZ7oAQ4JP5KT3HrA-Bwp[/QUOTE]

Understand him: he is worried about 1000 migrants... Europe doesn't know we Italians rescued more than 13000 migrants in 5 months... and between 2014 and 2017 we rescued 550000 migrants. When I hear "Merkel react..." I throw those statements in the place they deserve: trash bin. Everyone points his finger against Italians...

GASKA
06-20-2018, 04:19 PM
Just to clarify when I mentioned Pope ( emerit) Benedict XVI the quote was the entire sentence " there'a right to migrate but there's also a right not to migrate and live decently in your home country" so not only the first part . Maybe you already get it but anyway better to be precise. No intention whatsoever to make him contradict what Pope Francis says however.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP17ffzuLbAhVEthQKHTfpCIwQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2F2012%2F10%2F29% 2Fvaticaninsider%2Feng%2Fthe-vatican%2Fpope-not-emigrating-is-also-a-human-right-Dymu44FKGlxqZJgEcJl9oM%2Fpagina.html&usg=AOvVaw1cGZ7oAQ4JP5KT3HrA-Bwp

Understand him: he is worried about 1000 migrants... Europe doesn't know we Italians rescued more than 13000 migrants in 5 months... and between 2014 and 2017 we rescued 550000 migrants. When I hear "Merkel react..." I throw those statements in the place they deserve: trash bin. Everyone points his finger against Italians...[/QUOTE]

Not against the Italians, but against the Brussels bureaucrats. If they don't take measures, it's better that each country controls its migratory flows as British wants to do.

alan
06-20-2018, 11:32 PM
The lack of a bold classic A to B trail from the east to the earliest bell beakers of the P312/steppe variety in abd around Germany is very unlikely to change. So we are faced with two choices that make sense of steppe/P312 beaker people.

A. It was very subtle/small/lightening speed move that left no in-your-face cultural trail.
B. Bell beaker arose out of steppe DNA carrying groups already in central Europe (i.e a CW subset).

I have never been able to fully make my mind up on this although a lot of reading into what was going on between Poland and the Dnieper in the period 2800-2550BC (the respective most likely earlier dates of CW and beaker) does lead me to conclude that the beaker burial traditions.N-S orientation, the archery set tradition, the hollow based arrowhead type most common in central European beaker groups, the rise of craft specialism etc fits very well into a serious of changes that spread throughout the western steppe, the north Carpathians etc in the period shorty before the beaker culture appeared c. 2550BC. Beaker does look like a group who were located in a position to absorb a wide range of influences that most of the CW world further west did not. Generally speaking I think bell beaker emerged in the interface zone between the steppe groups, GAC and CW. By the way, the fact that a plainly eastern derived type of arrowhead is associated with most of the earliest P312-steppe beaker people on the continent is worth noting. It was only further west that western influences on the P312 beaker people led them to adopt the barbed and tanged arrowhead. In terms of the P312 beaker people this seem to be a secondary thing and not part of their original toolkit. Wrist guards and v-perforated buttons are also generally considered to be of eastern or at east central European origin when found in beaker. The type of tanged copper dagger also looks of eastern origin as Jean Manco often discussed.

Another thing I think is a mistake is to see the CW world as monolithic. Admittedly a lot of it does seem to derive its traditions from a single wave of 2800-2700BC. However, reading into the period 2800-2500BC in southern Poland showed that this area at least retained a longterm link with the western steppes and absorbed a sequence of influences that can be seen in burial rites and other cultural indicators across those 300 years. While most of the CW world seemed conservative and kept and fossilized the ancestral E-W inhumation rites of the original CW wave west, the south-easternmost parts of the CW world in did not. It has strongly been suggested that these influences seen in burial rites must have been accompanied by migration as they are too specific. As there seems to have been a constant or intermittent contact with the steppe zone in southern Poland, that suggests considerable mobility and networking as its quite a distance from southern Poland to the steppes. So, I suppose the lesson is that just because 90% of the CW zone looks like R1a E-W burying people, we should not ignore that minority area of the CW world who did not stay frozen in that tradition and seem to have retained contact and gene-flow from the steppes afterwards.

I think the specific burial rite, especially the orientations, are far more important to identifying the origins of P312 than beaker pots are. For all we know, beaker pots may have been the last thing added to the beaker package. I think we need to focus on pre-2550BC N-S burying cultures which look steppe derived enough to explain the genetics of the beaker people (which look like Yamnaya+perhaps a bit more north-east-central farmer types). The radiocarbon and other traditional material culture evidence does not back a Danubian route into Germany etc. All beaker groups downstream of Vienna on the Danube are considered to be derived from Moravian bell beaker anyway. The DNA is not suggestive of beaker passing through a zone with a large Balkano-Danubian farmer substrate. So I think we must be looking a spread westwards that passed along the northern flanks of the Carpathians. That fits the evidence of what part of the CW world displayed evidence of continuing steppe links after most CW had departed far to the west.

Another curious thing is that fairly soon the beaker people appear to have gone through the Moravian gates and followed the Danube to set up a far outlier horse trading station at Csepel at Budapest. Now, the way I look at this is that noone would go to that trouble if they did not already have a tradition of using horses. It was probably like discovering the NW passage for them when they discovered you didnt have to go all the way round the east and north flanks of the Carpathians and cross several major rivers to get horses into the area around Germany and the Czech Republic.

It is also worth considering that the classic full beaker package may not have all come from one spot and spread from there. It may have been (like the common/companion ware pottery) have been Magpied together over a number of decades until a package formed. So it might be best to look at all the attributes of the culture that the earliest continental P312 beaker people had and where they could have come from. I think some things are probably core ancestral traits like the N-S burial traditions. Other aspects may be indicative of the sort of area where mobile proto-beaker people had contact with - the tanged knives, the common ware pottery, the v perforated buttons, the hollow based arrowheads, the bracers, tne beakers themselves. If you had a highly clan controlling a network or trade zone then they could pass influences along their chain that reflected contacts from anywhere in that network. Only when you put it all together can you probably plot the extent of their networking. However, I think some things are more likely to be ancestral rather than due to mobility and networking with other peoples along their path, and the prime one I think that is least likely to change without a change of population is the burial rite. They were very particular about this and the N-S beaker burial tradition can be seen from Poland to Britain and even in Iberia in the later beaker period there. I appears to have been pretty (though not universally) resistant to influence of the substates where the beaker people settled. So, I think it is the key indicator of ultimate origin.

GASKA
06-21-2018, 02:47 PM
N-S beaker burial tradition (Poland, Britain, Spain), is just one of their burial practices. There is a long tradition pf viewing the producers of BBs as a people colonising western Europe and parts of Central Europe in search of copper ore. The items found across the whole distribution of the BB culture, previously existed in Iberia (wristguards, barbed and tanged arrowheads, copper daggers, buttons with a V shaped hole........) and other elements of the material culture like houses and burial customs continue previous local traditions. While Middle Neolithic populations simply continued ancestral traditions when burying their dead in Early Neolithic megaliths, the people using BB are described as "squatters in collective tombs", and the removal of the bones are described as an act of occupation.

In British literature, the makers of BB are often credited with the introduction of single burial, however in Spain there are also ancient individual burials, and in the Western half of the distribution of BBs from Spain to Ireland Western Scotland and Switzerland, BBs are normally associated with communal burials. In France and Spain older structures are often re-opened, stone-cists were used in Switzerland, France and the British isles and in all the Eastern part of the BB distribution. Beakers are frequent find in Scottish megalithic graves, in Lower Saxony, about HALF of all megalithic graves of TBK type contain finds of BBs or CWC, often both. In southern France BB burials are found predominantly in dolmen (also in natural and artificial caves, like in Spain).

In the east, this re-use of older structures is common in other cultural traditions that are often interpreted as intrusive as well GAC and CWC. In Mecklenburg many TBK graves contain GAC and CW vessels. Although we often accuse BB people of being squatters in collective tombs, we have to admit that they didn't iniciate the habit. Out of 76 known and 37 excavated graves of Western TBK, 8 contained later finds, 4 of them between 1-7 BBs.

razyn
06-21-2018, 07:06 PM
Short note to say I contacted Bill Crumbleholm (Beaker Folk Pottery - Upwey Dorset England) to ask if he was still in business or if any of his people were. After 3 days I have no reply so suspect he may have retired.

I have heard back from him now. He doesn't ship domestically, let alone abroad, after having had several bad experiences with works being broken in transit. And that's why he doesn't post prices, or sell online. It needs to be picked up from him, and the picker-upper assumes responsibility for its delivery to the end customer. Specifically he said:


If someone can come and pick pots up from me in Dorset, England, I could make a batch on commission - it would help if you could give me a few months notice, with some images/illustrations of the pots you would like me to attempt to replicate.

For me and rms2 it would be a boatload simpler just to deal with Webb's brother. I've noted his PW county school address, for later use, if needed. But we haven't heard from the potter in Normandy who posts here (mostly in French). Is anybody trying to contact him about this?

R.Rocca
06-21-2018, 07:24 PM
I have heard back from him now. He doesn't ship domestically, let alone abroad, after having had several bad experiences with works being broken in transit. And that's why he doesn't post prices, or sell online. It needs to be picked up from him, and the picker-upper assumes responsibility for its delivery to the end customer. Specifically he said:

For me and rms2 it would be a boatload simpler just to deal with Webb's brother. I've noted his PW county school address, for later use, if needed. But we haven't heard from the potter in Normandy who posts here (mostly in French). Is anybody trying to contact him about this?

If you can get somebody local, I'll order one as well.

dsm
06-21-2018, 10:27 PM
I heard from Bill Crumbleholm in Dorset regarding Bell Beaker replicas.

He said he had had no real success shipping his replica Beakers just in England let alone oseas. He provided a link below to a worldwide group who he thinks we could be interested in.

Quote from Bill...

"
By all means do contact me if you are heading this way into Dorset and could pick some up - it would help if you could give me a few months notice, with some images/illustrations of the pots you would like me to attempt to replicate.

Meanwhile you could try EXARC - I don't know many of the members, but there might be someone who is making replicas of what you are looking for?"

https://exarc.net/

rms2
06-22-2018, 01:11 AM
I think it is important to keep the various Bell Beaker burials and artifacts separated chronologically, typologically, anthropologically, and, now that we can, genetically, so that we don't become confused.

Here is an interesting passage from Henri Hubert's History of the Celtic People, from page 169 and pages 171-173. Hubert thought of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people in the British Isles and Ireland as the original Goidels, bringers of a Q-Celtic language.



But whence did the Goidels come, and when did they come? Where must we look for their earliest home on the Continent and their starting-point? Probably they came from north of the Brythonic domain, and it is to them that tradition refers when it tells that the Celts used to live on the low coasts of the North Sea. They must have left those shores very early, for hardly a trace of them remains there (p. 169).

. . . In the first period of the Bronze Age there arrived in the British Isles, coming from the Continent, people with very marked characteristics. The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.

They buried their dead under round tumuli, known as "round barrows", in graves in which the body was placed in a crouching position on one side and enclosed in stone flags or woodwork. Later they burned them. In their graves there were zoned beakers (Fig. 33), but of a late type in which the neck is distinguished from the belly, or vases derived from these beakers . . . The grave goods comprised buttons with a V-shaped boring, flint and copper daggers, arrow-heads, and flat perforated pieces of schist which are "bracers", or bowman's wristguards. The skeletons were of a new type: tall, with round heads of a fairly constant shape, the brow receding, the supraciliary ridge prominent, the cheek-bones highly developed, and the jaws massive and projecting so as to present a dip at the base of the nose. I have already described them as one of the types represented in Celtic burials.

The association of the physical type of this people with the beaker has led British anthropologists to call it the Beaker Folk . . . In Scotland they were accompanied by other brachycephals, with a higher index and of Alpine type. In general they advanced from south to north and from east to west, and their progress lasted long enough for there to be a very marked difference in furniture between their oldest and latest tombs.

. . . Their progress was a conquest. It is evident that they subdued and assimilated the previous occupants of the country.


Hubert was prescient, at least where Britain is concerned.

GASKA
06-22-2018, 05:45 AM
I think it is important to keep the various Bell Beaker burials and artifacts separated chronologically, typologically, anthropologically, and, now that we can, genetically, so that we don't become confused.

Here is an interesting passage from Henri Hubert's History of the Celtic People, from page 169 and pages 171-173. Hubert thought of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people in the British Isles and Ireland as the original Goidels, bringers of a Q-Celtic language.



Hubert was prescient, at least where Britain is concerned.

Hubert's theories (París, 1.872-1.927) are respectable but old and unrealistic.

The oldest BB burial in England is the Boscombe Bowmen- I2416- (2.335 BC)- Olalde says that he has "the lowest amount of steppe related ancestry".The grave is a COLLECTIVE ONE and NOT COVERED BY A BARROW- 8 men, last 2 burials articulated, the other 6 individuals were represented by some (but not all) disarticulated remains. These men have been resident in a location aged 5-7 and in a second location aged 11-13 (Brittany ?-Portugal?-Black Forest?). Lower Rhine biosphere is excluded as one of the chidhood residences of the Boscombe Bowmen.

Three small copper daggers were found in the Amesbury archer tomb- Copper comes from Continental Europe (2 from Northern Spain, 1 from Western France)- One of his wristguards has its origins in Continental Europe, and the gold ornaments are of Iberian origin.

Deehomed Ornament (earliest gold object from Ireland)-NOT Irish gold, it's best parallels are from Estremoz (Evora, Portugal). The Atlantic connection is evident

alan
06-22-2018, 10:26 AM
Looking into the various beaker traits in Central Europe I honestly have concluded that almost all of it is eastern in origin. However they were cultural magpies and they did pick up traits wherever they networked. The barbed and tanged arrow is a good example. It was not originally used by the earliest P312 beaker users and was picked up around the Rhine from contacts further west. Ditto perhaps some goldwork and beaver types. However pottery and jewellery were female crafts and fashion items respectively so not good indicators of male lines. But the classic burial practice, archery kits, hollow based arrows, tanged daggers, v perforated buttons etc associated with the oldest proven P312 beaker people all fit in very we traits that were sweeping the western steppes, the east and north Carpathian fringes c. 2600BC. This is the ancestral stuff.

What I think confuses people is that by 2500-2400BC the P312 beaker people who had reached the Rhine area were able to take in western fashions coming ultimately from Iberia via their non-R1b maritime beaker colonies who reached Atlantic France and the Rhône around 2500BC. This includes some pottery types, barbed and tanged arrows and some goldwork. This should not be surprising as the magpie behaviour of P312 beaker groups further east is very clear from the common ware pottery borrowed from many cultures across Central Europe, v buttons which originated in north-east Europe etc.

So it’s best when looking at the oldest core of P312 beaker people to only look at the Central European ‘bell beaker east’ group because they are the oldest (150ys/5-6 generations older than those who crossed to the isles). No conclusions on origin should be drawn from younger P312 beaker groups further west and north as they have had time /geographical relocation to absorb new western influences that tell us nothing about the eariest P312 beaker groups. If you strip it all back to the traits of the earliest P312 beaker groups closest to the ancestral state then the traits do best fit traits seen in the western steppes to east Carpathian area c 2600BC. No reliable up to date info would places the origin of the earliest P312 beaker trains ( burial rite, hollow based arrow type, tanged daggers, v perforated buttons, wrist guards etc anywhere other than the eastern parts of Europe. Certainly not Iberia where all these things when and if they appeared weee secondary additions.

rms2
06-22-2018, 10:48 AM
Hubert's theories (París, 1.872-1.927) are respectable but old and unrealistic.

Since Hubert was writing in the first quarter of the 20th century, a certain amount of that is to be expected. However, much of what he wrote was dead on and has been vindicated by Olalde et al.

I am baffled by people who criticize older scholars like Hubert and Gimbutas for their relatively few errors and totally miss the many amazing ways in which they were right and well ahead of their time.



The oldest BB burial in England is the Boscombe Bowmen- I2416- (2.335 BC)- Olalde says that he has "the lowest amount of steppe related ancestry".The grave is a COLLECTIVE ONE and NOT COVERED BY A BARROW- 8 men, last 2 burials articulated, the other 6 individuals were represented by some (but not all) disarticulated remains. These men have been resident in a location aged 5-7 and in a second location aged 11-13 (Brittany ?-Portugal?-Black Forest?). Lower Rhine biosphere is excluded as one of the chidhood residences of the Boscombe Bowmen.

I2416 did have the lowest level of steppe ancestry of the British Kurgan Bell Beaker samples, but not none. I2416 was also unusual among British Bell Beaker samples in that he was R1b-P310xL21. The other skeleton from the Boscombe Bowmen burial that was successfully tested by Olalde et al was I2417. That one belonged to y-dna haplogroup R1b-L21 and had one of the highest levels of steppe dna among the British samples.

The Boscombe Bowmen burial was collective, but it was not a Neolithic farmer type collective burial and is regarded as unusual among British Bell Beaker burials.

From page 106 of the Olalde et al supplementary material:



Burials 25004 and 25005 are two individuals from the collective burial known as the ‘Boscombe Bowmen’, a type of burial that is unique to the site and generally difficult to parallel in Wessex and Britain as a whole.



The ‘Boscombe Bowmen’ grave was later marked by a Bronze Age barrow, which in turn became the focus for a small cemetery.

Since the Boscombe Bowmen burial was covered by a Bronze Age mound, it's likely it too was once originally covered by its own mound that was in turn incorporated into the later Bronze Age mound, so I don't think one can say definitively that there was no barrow. Many Beaker burials that are sometimes reported as belonging to flat graves may once have been covered by small mounds that have been worn down by human activity (farmers plowing the soil or taking soil from a mound and using it elsewhere) and the weather.



Three small copper daggers were found in the Amesbury archer tomb- Copper comes from Continental Europe (2 from Northern Spain, 1 from Western France)- One of his wristguards has its origins in Continental Europe, and the gold ornaments are of Iberian origin.

Deehomed Ornament (earliest gold object from Ireland)-NOT Irish gold, it's best parallels are from Estremoz (Evora, Portugal). The Atlantic connection is evident

Obviously there were networks of exchange, but the Amesbury Archer himself evidently grew up in a region isotopically like that of the Alpine region of southern Germany and Switzerland.

Various objects might have come from Iberia, but the fact remains that Olalde et al found that Kurgan Bell Beaker people did not originate there (from page 4 of the Olalde et al paper):



These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.

rms2
06-22-2018, 11:29 AM
Over in the R1b-L21 subforum I posted about an R1b-L21 from Wick Barrow (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10825-Bell-Beaker-R1b-L21&p=420804&viewfull=1#post420804) in Somerset.

Going back to Mr. Crumbleholme momentarily, he did some reproductions for the Wick Barrow Project. They and the originals are pictured here (http://www.crumbleholme.plus.com/Beakerfolk/beakerfolkwickbarrow.htm).

GASKA
06-22-2018, 01:27 PM
Looking into the various beaker traits in Central Europe I honestly have concluded that almost all of it is eastern in origin. However they were cultural magpies and they did pick up traits wherever they networked. The barbed and tanged arrow is a good example. It was not originally used by the earliest P312 beaker users and was picked up around the Rhine from contacts further west. Ditto perhaps some goldwork and beaver types. However pottery and jewellery were female crafts and fashion items respectively so not good indicators of male lines. But the classic burial practice, archery kits, hollow based arrows, tanged daggers, v perforated buttons etc associated with the oldest proven P312 beaker people all fit in very we traits that were sweeping the western steppes, the east and north Carpathian fringes c. 2600BC. This is the ancestral stuff.

What I think confuses people is that by 2500-2400BC the P312 beaker people who had reached the Rhine area were able to take in western fashions coming ultimately from Iberia via their non-R1b maritime beaker colonies who reached Atlantic France and the Rhône around 2500BC. This includes some pottery types, barbed and tanged arrows and some goldwork. This should not be surprising as the magpie behaviour of P312 beaker groups further east is very clear from the common ware pottery borrowed from many cultures across Central Europe, v buttons which originated in north-east Europe etc.

So it’s best when looking at the oldest core of P312 beaker people to only look at the Central European ‘bell beaker east’ group because they are the oldest (150ys/5-6 generations older than those who crossed to the isles). No conclusions on origin should be drawn from younger P312 beaker groups further west and north as they have had time /geographical relocation to absorb new western influences that tell us nothing about the eariest P312 beaker groups. If you strip it all back to the traits of the earliest P312 beaker groups closest to the ancestral state then the traits do best fit traits seen in the western steppes to east Carpathian area c 2600BC. No reliable up to date info would places the origin of the earliest P312 beaker trains ( burial rite, hollow based arrow type, tanged daggers, v perforated buttons, wrist guards etc anywhere other than the eastern parts of Europe. Certainly not Iberia where all these things when and if they appeared weee secondary additions.

I guess one of this eastern groups is Csepel island (Hungary). What do you think about these funeral rites?- Cemetery of Szigetszentmiklňs- asigned to the BB Csepel Group- "155 burials were excavated in the cemetery. Most of them were urn burials and scattered cremation burials, only a FEW were inhumation and symbolic graves. The uncovering of 10 graves surrounded by circular ditches was, however a new phenomenon"- SIMULTANEOUS PRESENCE OF VARIOUS RITES- Cremation (in a urn), Inhumation (in a crouched position-2%) and scattered cremation burials at the bottom of a pit. You really think that the BB burial rite, coincides with the funerary rite of the steppes? Are these the earliest P312 beaker groups?

The truth is that if they came from the steppes, mysteriously forgot their habits as soon as they arrived in Hungary.

rms2
06-22-2018, 01:30 PM
. . .

The truth is that if they came from the steppes, mysteriously forgot their habits as soon as they arrived in Hungary.

Then it's a good thing they retained their steppe dna, at least the ones who belonged to a steppe y-dna haplogroup.

Webb
06-22-2018, 01:33 PM
I have heard back from him now. He doesn't ship domestically, let alone abroad, after having had several bad experiences with works being broken in transit. And that's why he doesn't post prices, or sell online. It needs to be picked up from him, and the picker-upper assumes responsibility for its delivery to the end customer. Specifically he said:



For me and rms2 it would be a boatload simpler just to deal with Webb's brother. I've noted his PW county school address, for later use, if needed. But we haven't heard from the potter in Normandy who posts here (mostly in French). Is anybody trying to contact him about this?

I will talk to him this weekend. If he is up to it then I will repost and then ask for specific examples of what everyone has in mind.

rms2
06-22-2018, 01:37 PM
I will talk to him this weekend. If he is up to it then I will repost and then ask for specific examples of what everyone has in mind.

I like these from Wick Barrow in Somerset.

24202

Wick Barrow Beaker 2 was recovered with a skeleton that was R1b-L21 (I6775), so it's my first choice, but all three are nice.

Here are black-and-white photos of them that also list their dimensions.

24201

etrusco
06-22-2018, 01:54 PM
I guess one of this eastern groups is Csepel island (Hungary). What do you think about these funeral rites?- Cemetery of Szigetszentmiklňs- asigned to the BB Csepel Group- "155 burials were excavated in the cemetery. Most of them were urn burials and scattered cremation burials, only a FEW were inhumation and symbolic graves. The uncovering of 10 graves surrounded by circular ditches was, however a new phenomenon"- SIMULTANEOUS PRESENCE OF VARIOUS RITES- Cremation (in a urn), Inhumation (in a crouched position-2%) and scattered cremation burials at the bottom of a pit. You really think that the BB burial rite, coincides with the funerary rite of the steppes? Are these the earliest P312 beaker groups?

The truth is that if they came from the steppes, mysteriously forgot their habits as soon as they arrived in Hungary.

A movement of people that as soon as they arrive in their target destination lose most of their cultural traits ( and burial customs can be easily linked to religious ideas) is called technically a migration and surely not a conquest. At least we have reached a solid conclusion about this issue.

rms2
06-22-2018, 01:59 PM
A movement of people that as soon as they arrive in their target destination lose most of their cultural traits ( and burial customs can be easily linked to religious ideas) is called technically a migration and surely not a conquest. At least we have reached a solid conclusion about this issue.

If Csepel was all there was to Beaker, maybe, but it's not. Don't be confused by Gaska's habit of jumbling things together and confusing them.

Gimbutas, who actually participated in many eastern and central European archaeological digs, wrote this about Kurgan Bell Beaker, from pages 390-391 of The Civilization of the Goddess:



The specific correspondence between the Yamna, Late Vucedol, and Bell Beaker complexes is visible in burial rites which include grave pits under round barrows, the coexistence of cremation and inhumation rites, and the construction of mortuary houses. (FIGURE 10-38) In armaments we see tanged or riveted triangular daggers made of arsenic copper, spear points of arsenic copper and flint, concave-based or tanged triangular arrowheads of flint, and arrow straighteners. In ornaments there are necklaces of canine teeth, copper tubes, or bird bones; boar tusks; and crescent-shaped pendants resembling breast plates. In solar symbolism we find sun or star motifs excised and white encrusted on the inside of braziers, or incised on bone or amber button-shaped beads. Techniques of ceramic decoration include stamping or gouging in zoned metopes, encrustation with white paste of delicate geometric motifs, zigzags, dashes, nets, lozenges, and dots or circles (a Baden-Kostolac-Vucedol tradition). Certain ceramic forms placed in graves, such as braziers and beakers, are from the Kurgan tradition. The Bell Beaker people, wherever they spread, continued the traditional ceramic art connected with their faith. Only the ritual importance of their uniquely beautiful stereotyped beakers could have motivated their production for hundreds of years in lands far from the homeland. The correspondences linking the Bell Beaker and Yamna with the Vucedol - in armament, costume, funeral rites, beliefs in life after death, and in symbolism - are precisely the most significant and revealing.

Ibid, page 390:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.


Keep the sentence in bold above in mind when you read the following from page 4 of Olalde et al:



These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.

rms2
06-22-2018, 02:39 PM
Seems to me the Beaker tradition has continued. The bump in the beaker has been moved up a few inches, and the latest model is glass, but hey, they strike me as similar: ancestor>descendant.

:beerchug:

24204

Webb
06-22-2018, 03:27 PM
Back when I commented about FTDNA's Bronze Age Invader component, Generalissimo posted a link to a blog about FTDNA's source for this component, and in the blog were charts, I assume created by Davidsky, showing specific samples and what their steppe component was. Did anybody else read the blogs and look at the charts?

etrusco
06-22-2018, 05:02 PM
As for KURGAN bell beaker here's an interesting study about the origin of the kurgan that is worth reading. Even tough we are talking about 3th millennium we should never forget that interaction between farmers and steppe had a long history and before the arrival of the "kurgans" in Central Western europe we had farmers messing around in the steppe.....


https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3470


Quote:

"the monumental architecture of the maikop-novosvobodnaia unit, with its typical stone constructions, existed at the same time. Analogies between the pontic steppe and the maikop-novosvobodnaia stone ritual architecture are unknown in the northern caspian area and on the lower Volga during this period. therefore, it is to be supposed that the appearance and distribution of ritual monumental architecture in the Black sea steppe originated in an area of durable contacts between the pastoral and agricultural populations (most obviously the usatovo culture). i do not exclude the possibility that during the eneolithic the world of agriculture had a significant impact on the spiritual life and social relations of steppe populations and thereby also on the development of complex and monumental ritual architecture. it is notable that the distribution of ritual monumental buildings in the steppe goes along with specific rituals such as the disposal of the dead on its side and the deposition of vessels in the grave (initially imported from the trypillia unit period and later from maikop-novosvobodnaia vessels together with imitations).
in conclusion, the question is whether the appearance and distribution of monumental ritual architecture (the “kurgan tradition”) have an exclusively steppic origin or reflect the transformation of the spiritual and social life of the steppe population (initially in elite groups) under the influence of the agricultural
world. in support of the second hypothesis, the new series of radiocarbon dates from the Kiev laboratory (n.n. Kovaliukh) for all burials of the middle eneolithic (table 3) falls within the time span of the trypillia B/ii-c/1 and c/1-c/2 and the maikop-novosvobodnaia units.

So even the kurgans themselves could ( likely) be of western origin ( link with megalithic culture?) like the crouched burial ( the "farmer" position of Manzura).......

R.Rocca
06-22-2018, 05:08 PM
As for KURGAN bell beaker here's an interesting study about the origin of the kurgan that is worth reading. Even tough we are talking about 3th millennium we should never forget that interaction between farmers and steppe had a long history and before the arrival of the "kurgans" in Central Western europe we had farmers messing around in the steppe.....


https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3470


Quote:

"the monumental architecture of the maikop-novosvobodnaia unit, with its typical stone constructions, existed at the same time. Analogies between the pontic steppe and the maikop-novosvobodnaia stone ritual architecture are unknown in the northern caspian area and on the lower Volga during this period. therefore, it is to be supposed that the appearance and distribution of ritual monumental architecture in the Black sea steppe originated in an area of durable contacts between the pastoral and agricultural populations (most obviously the usatovo culture). i do not exclude the possibility that during the eneolithic the world of agriculture had a significant impact on the spiritual life and social relations of steppe populations and thereby also on the development of complex and monumental ritual architecture. it is notable that the distribution of ritual monumental buildings in the steppe goes along with specific rituals such as the disposal of the dead on its side and the deposition of vessels in the grave (initially imported from the trypillia unit period and later from maikop-novosvobodnaia vessels together with imitations).
in conclusion, the question is whether the appearance and distribution of monumental ritual architecture (the “kurgan tradition”) have an exclusively steppic origin or reflect the transformation of the spiritual and social life of the steppe population (initially in elite groups) under the influence of the agricultural
world. in support of the second hypothesis, the new series of radiocarbon dates from the Kiev laboratory (n.n. Kovaliukh) for all burials of the middle eneolithic (table 3) falls within the time span of the trypillia B/ii-c/1 and c/1-c/2 and the maikop-novosvobodnaia units.

So even the kurgans themselves could ( likely) be of western origin ( link with megalithic culture?) like the crouched burial ( the "farmer" position of Manzura).......

The line you highlighted says the pottery was being imported/imitated. Also, nobody trusts the Kiev lab dates for radiocarbon testing any more. Time and time again other labs have shown different/more credible results.

etrusco
06-22-2018, 05:25 PM
The line you highlighted says the pottery was being imported/imitated. Also, nobody trusts the Kiev lab dates for radiocarbon testing any more. Time and time again other labs have shown different/more credible results.

Imported from CT and imitated those from Maykop-Novosbodnaya......as for radiocarbon dates it is an I say/ you say kind of stuff......but don't look at the finger... look at the moon...... the crouched burial is from the farmers world so likely also the kurgans too. Reality is the cultural ethnogenesis of the steppe people was mediated and guided from the west......again read Manzura. Also this thesis perfectly explain why when folks from the steppe "entered" C/Western europe we have no sign of conflict or destructions.......obviously since they know each other since 1500 years and ( that's my personal view.. I do not pretend to be mainstream) likely speak languages belonging to the same macro-family ( guess what?)....


IIRC the "steppe" position is the "frog" one...obviously nowhere to be found in CWC and BBC.....

etrusco
06-22-2018, 05:37 PM
@all

again I do not want to downplay completely the steppe hypothesis . I think it is a likely scenario...my posts just try to convince everybody that the role of the farmers ( from europe....because I'm not a fan of Renefrew too) is largely underestimated......

alan
06-22-2018, 10:38 PM
I guess one of this eastern groups is Csepel island (Hungary). What do you think about these funeral rites?- Cemetery of Szigetszentmiklňs- asigned to the BB Csepel Group- "155 burials were excavated in the cemetery. Most of them were urn burials and scattered cremation burials, only a FEW were inhumation and symbolic graves. The uncovering of 10 graves surrounded by circular ditches was, however a new phenomenon"- SIMULTANEOUS PRESENCE OF VARIOUS RITES- Cremation (in a urn), Inhumation (in a crouched position-2%) and scattered cremation burials at the bottom of a pit. You really think that the BB burial rite, coincides with the funerary rite of the steppes? Are these the earliest P312 beaker groups?

The truth is that if they came from the steppes, mysteriously forgot their habits as soon as they arrived in Hungary.

Csepel is a weird far outlier of the Moravian beaker group living in a cultural melting pot. They tell us nothing about beaker orgins. The beaker culture other than Csepel really didn't have a Danubian presence until you reach the parts of the Danube which can be accessed from the Czech/Germany areas upstream of Bratislava. In addition the genetics of the P312 beaker people does not tally with their ancestors taking a route south of the Carpathians along the Danube (unless it was so fast they just didn't mix but I doubt that scenario although it's difficult to say its impossible).

But getting back to the topic of the thread, if you strip away the !ater Rhenish group and its derivatives in the isles, Denmark etc and accept that Polish beaker and Csepel are offshoots of Moravian beaker, you really are just left with a core Germany and Moravian beaker. It seems that that is the area where the first recognisable beaker culture associated with P312 and steppe genes arose. However as I said in my previous post, you won't find the core traits of the these early bell beaker groups (burial orientation, arrow type, etc ) in and around Germany in situ. They clearly were newcomers from further east where those traits can be seen emerging between the Dnieper and Carpathians shottly before the P312 beaker culture emerged. So think the DNA evidence is not misleading us. They really do seem to be the consequence of new movements into central Europe from the east. Right now the best.missing link between the steppes and Germany looks like the Malopolska CW. They are a classic case of the problem of defining a group by pottery. They look like they could be proto beaker people who have magpied their pottery off CW groups. It's important to recall that many steppe groups actually had a very weak ceramic identity and tended to be buried with pots from other cultures.

rms2
06-23-2018, 11:42 AM
. . . Right now the best.missing link between the steppes and Germany looks like the Malopolska CW . . .

From Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture", page 113:



The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).

rms2
06-23-2018, 11:51 AM
From Heyd, Yamnaya Groups and Tumuli West of the Black Sea, page 539:



More puzzling, however, as potential Yamnaya settling and wandering areas are three other regions in Europe: the 8000 sq. km wide little Hungarian plain, called the little Alföld or Kisalföld; the north/north-central Middle Elbe-Saale area of east Germany with its fine Chernozem soils of the here Magdeburger Börde and further steppe vegetation in the shadow of the Harz mountains; and a stripe in the foreland along the east Carpathians in southeast Poland, the current border region between Romania, the Ukraine, and Poland. For all these three regions we do not have “a smoking gun” in the prehistoric record of the first half of the 3rd millennium cal. B.C. pointing towards Yamnaya tumuli and burials. What we have instead, however, are indirect hints, such as the concentration of tumuli (see below), elements of Yamnaya burial customs, anthropomorphic statue-stelae, and artefacts with eastern links or eastern origins.

Ibid, page 546:



We have already discussed this Yamnaya package and its content in full detail (Harrison, Heyd 2007), and it does not need to be explained here at any further length. However, three elements should be emphasized:

1) anthropomorphic stelae, as shown as typical for the Yamnaya
have a much wider distribution in the early 3rd millennium B.C.
(Cassini et al. 1995; Cassini, Fossati 2007; Heyd, Harrison 2007);

2) cord decoration: we can observe the adoption of this special
decoration technique and its appearance on pottery vessels in
many archaeological cultures in the southeast of Europe just in
the period dated by many 14C dates to the first half of the 3rd
millennium B.C. (Roman et al. 1992; Bertemes 1998);

3) tumuli.

etrusco
06-24-2018, 12:11 PM
From Heyd, Yamnaya Groups and Tumuli West of the Black Sea, page 539:



Ibid, page 546:


It is an off-topic but you said some weeks ago on this thread that ancient european farmers spoke Afro-Asiatic languages....seems that Carlos agree with you:

https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/saharas-rather-pale-green-and-discontinuous-sahelo-sudanian-steppe-corridor-and-the-r1b-afroasiatic-connection/

Never heard before about this link between R1b and nostratic......the link would be R1b V-88 = AA languages.....

rms2
06-24-2018, 12:24 PM
I don't know what languages the Neolithic farmers of Old Europe spoke. It was David Anthony who suggested that at least some of them might have spoken an Afro-Asiatic language.

From page 305 of The Horse The Wheel and Language:



Western Indo-European vocabularies contained a few roots that were borrowed from Afro-Asiatic languages, such as the word for the domestic bull, *tawr-, and the western Yamnaya groups lived next to the Tripolye culture, which might have spoken a language distantly derived from an Afro-Asiatic language of Anatolia.

rms2
06-24-2018, 12:36 PM
V88 separated from the line leading to L389 during the Paleolithic Period. It has a distinct destiny and history all its own and little in common with R1b-M269 other than the mrca L754 around 17,000 years ago.

GASKA
06-24-2018, 01:17 PM
A movement of people that as soon as they arrive in their target destination lose most of their cultural traits ( and burial customs can be easily linked to religious ideas) is called technically a migration and surely not a conquest. At least we have reached a solid conclusion about this issue.

Do you Know any interesting paper about BB culture in Italy, that serves to make us an exact idea of the geographical extension of this culture in your country ? (Valle de Aosta, Piamonte, Lombardia, Sicilia...).

Regarding the conquest of Old Europe, don´t worry, NO prestigious European arqueologist thinks that something similar could happen. Of course, there were also no conquests in France, Italy or Spain. Population movements of small family clans have only been shown in search of fertile farmland and pastures for livestock. The rest only exists in the minds of people who have an idealized or romantic vision of European Prehistory. The Western (Iberia), Central (Italy) and Eastern (Balkans, Greece) cultures were technologically far superior to the nomads of the steppes. The proof is the influence exercised by european farmers in Yamnaya.

It seems a joke to afirm an oriental origin, when the BB groups closest with Yamnaya, not only have different burial rites, but also genetically they are totally different (Hungarian BBs are predominantly I2a). It would not be more logical to think that the closer they were to their origin the better they would preserve their traditions and that these would be lost over time and through contact with Western populations.

The origin of our haplogroup R1b could be Eastern, (but in any case, very old), so, none of us is Anti-estepist, what we cannot accept is a late Post 2.900 BC migration that reach Germany, France and Spain, because it has no sense neither archaelogically, nor linguistically, anthropologically, genetically.

Un saludo.

anglesqueville
06-24-2018, 01:49 PM
About GASKA, extracted from the wiki page devoted to Autosuggestion, and in particular to the " Coué Method":


Underlying principles: Coué thus developed a method which relied on the belief that any idea exclusively occupying the mind turns into reality...

Yes, but the text continues:
... although only to the extent that the idea is within the realm of possibility. For instance, a person without hands will not be able to make them grow back.

GASKA should try to stop to live in blah-blah-land, and start to learn a little genetics.

rms2
06-24-2018, 02:26 PM
. . .

It seems a joke to afirm an oriental origin, when the BB groups closest with Yamnaya, not only have different burial rites, but also genetically they are totally different (Hungarian BBs are predominantly I2a). It would not be more logical to think that the closer they were to their origin the better they would preserve their traditions and that these would be lost over time and through contact with Western populations.

There was no political entity known as Hungary during the third millennium BC, so drawing a boundary using a modern nation state and saying "Hungarian BBs are predominantly whatever", is a work of human artifice. Besides, of the Bell Beaker samples from Hungary in Olalde et al, two are I2a, and four are R1b-M269. One is G2a, and one is H2. Of the four non-R1b Hungarian BB's, only one, I2786, an I2a, had any steppe dna. All of the Hungarian R1b BB's had steppe dna.

Pretty obviously most of the non-R1b BB samples from Hungary represent recruits from among the Neolithic farmers of Old Europe.

Kurgan BB burial rites do have a lot in common with Yamnaya burial rites, as both Heyd and Gimbutas mentioned in what I quoted from them a couple of posts back.

The joke would be to maintain, despite all the evidence, that Kurgan BB has an occidental origin.



The origin of our haplogroup R1b could be Eastern, (but in any case, very old), so, none of us is Anti-estepist, what we cannot accept is a late Post 2.900 BC migration that reach Germany, France and Spain, because it has no sense neither archaelogically, nor linguistically, anthropologically, genetically.

Un saludo.

Ridiculous.

24230

anglesqueville
06-24-2018, 03:18 PM
I agree with rms2, ridiculous is a suitable word for all this stuff. By the way, as many posts ago I asked GASKA who were the people behind the "we" that he used so often, he answered that this "we" was a stylistic turn, if I well understood, and that in fact "we" meant "I". I can, therefore, translate the quoted sentence as follows: " ... so, none of me is Anti-estepist ... ". GASKA should search for a good therapist. :biggrin1:

GASKA
06-24-2018, 03:18 PM
About GASKA, extracted from the wiki page devoted to Autosuggestion, and in particular to the " Coué Method":



Yes, but the text continues:

GASKA should try to stop to live in blah-blah-land, and start to learn a little genetics.

Some new archaelogical, linguistic or anthropological argument in favor of the steppe origin of P312?

Have you located L11/P312/U106/L21/Df27/U152 in Yamnaya or in any other steppe culture?. THe autosomal argument only shows eastern origin in many (not all of course, and in different degrees) western BBs, and as you Know it can be acquired from the father and the mother (I suppose that women will have something to say on this subject).

It seems clear that you a lot about genetics, we are here to learn.

GASKA
06-24-2018, 03:34 PM
Csepel is a weird far outlier of the Moravian beaker group living in a cultural melting pot. They tell us nothing about beaker orgins. The beaker culture other than Csepel really didn't have a Danubian presence until you reach the parts of the Danube which can be accessed from the Czech/Germany areas upstream of Bratislava. In addition the genetics of the P312 beaker people does not tally with their ancestors taking a route south of the Carpathians along the Danube (unless it was so fast they just didn't mix but I doubt that scenario although it's difficult to say its impossible).

But getting back to the topic of the thread, if you strip away the !ater Rhenish group and its derivatives in the isles, Denmark etc and accept that Polish beaker and Csepel are offshoots of Moravian beaker, you really are just left with a core Germany and Moravian beaker. It seems that that is the area where the first recognisable beaker culture associated with P312 and steppe genes arose. However as I said in my previous post, you won't find the core traits of the these early bell beaker groups (burial orientation, arrow type, etc ) in and around Germany in situ. They clearly were newcomers from further east where those traits can be seen emerging between the Dnieper and Carpathians shottly before the P312 beaker culture emerged. So think the DNA evidence is not misleading us. They really do seem to be the consequence of new movements into central Europe from the east. Right now the best.missing link between the steppes and Germany looks like the Malopolska CW. They are a classic case of the problem of defining a group by pottery. They look like they could be proto beaker people who have magpied their pottery off CW groups. It's important to recall that many steppe groups actually had a very weak ceramic identity and tended to be buried with pots from other cultures.

You think Malopolska CW coud be proto beaker people?

anglesqueville
06-24-2018, 03:46 PM
Looking some days ago into another thread, playground of another anti-steppist (or Anti-estepist?), I felt like I had fallen in a time loop. It's the same here. I prefer to get out while I can. Adíos!

rms2
06-24-2018, 03:50 PM
Some new archaelogical, linguistic or anthropological argument in favor of the steppe origin of P312?

Have you located L11/P312/U106/L21/Df27/U152 in Yamnaya or in any other steppe culture?. THe autosomal argument only shows eastern origin in many (not all of course, and in different degrees) western BBs, and as you Know it can be acquired from the father and the mother (I suppose that women will have something to say on this subject).

It seems clear that you a lot about genetics, we are here to learn.

Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition phase between Vucedol and Nagyrev. One of the Proto-Nagyrev samples from Olalde et al was R1b-L11xP312,U106.

Here are the Proto-Nagyrev samples:

I7040 (2500-2200 BC) 11-12 year-old female, mtDNA K1a4b

I7041 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7043, y-dna R1b-M269, mtDNA H1b1

I7042 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna I2a1, mtDNA H

I7043 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7041, y-dna R1b-L11xU106,P312, mtDNA H1b1

So, there's an L11 in a steppe-derived culture in Hungary other than Bell Beaker.

As has been mentioned a number of times before, Alexei Butin reported from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference back in January that R1b-P312 has been in found in a number of Khvalynsk skeletons from the last quarter of the 5th millennium at Ekaterinovsky Cape. He attributed that information to a presentation made by Aleksandr Aleksandrevich Khokhlov, a professor and scientist who co-authored a book with David Anthony.

Thus far, that's an unconfirmed report, but I'm trying to get confirmation. My latest attempt was to ask the Russian guys at YFull to try to find out for sure if it is an accurate report.

jdean
06-24-2018, 04:47 PM
Looking some days ago into another thread, playground of another anti-steppist (or Anti-estepist?), I felt like I had fallen in a time loop. It's the same here. I prefer to get out while I can. Adíos!

Hopeful after a nice glass of wine you will reconsider, if not you'll be sorely missed.

GASKA
06-24-2018, 04:48 PM
Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition phase between Vucedol and Nagyrev. One of the Proto-Nagyrev samples from Olalde et al was R1b-L11xP312,U106.

Here are the Proto-Nagyrev samples:

I7040 (2500-2200 BC) 11-12 year-old female, mtDNA K1a4b

I7041 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7043, y-dna R1b-M269, mtDNA H1b1

I7042 (2500-2200 BC) y-dna I2a1, mtDNA H

I7043 (2500-2200 BC) brother of I7041, y-dna R1b-L11xU106,P312, mtDNA H1b1

So, there's an L11 in a steppe-derived culture in Hungary other than Bell Beaker.

As has been mentioned a number of times before, Alexei Butin reported from the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference back in January that R1b-P312 has been in found in a number of Khvalynsk skeletons from the last quarter of the 5th millennium at Ekaterinovsky Cape. He attributed that information to a presentation made by Aleksandr Aleksandrevich Khokhlov, a professor and scientist who co-authored a book with David Anthony.

Thus far, that's an unconfirmed report, but I'm trying to get confirmation. My latest attempt was to ask the Russian guys at YFull to try to find out for sure if it is an accurate report.

Elzbieta Haduch- "The groups of BB people are the stranger element not only in Central Europe (Desideri, Eades, 2.002). There is no doubt from an anthropological point of view, that BBs are distinguised from the CWC people. BB skulls in Poland are short (brachycraneal), in contrast, the CWC people had the longer ones (dolichocranial). The biological differences are confirmed in the sphere of material culture and funeral practice, bring out BBS strangeness with respect to local societies. Dialogue between neighbouring locals and migrants, as well as mutual assimilation of the traits of their cultures were possible"

"The presence of long-headed female skeletons in the BBC indicates their local origin and the great probability of incorporation local inhabitants to the newcomer groups.Brachy-and mesocephalic male skulls from CWC graves also confirms contacts with BBC groups". Conclusions:

1.- Haduch is talking about Malopolska CW culture (2.750-2.350 B.C)-BB culture in Malopolska Upland- Samborzec (2.300 BC) and Sandomierz (2.240 BC).
2.- Malopolska CWC is fundamentally R1a and it has its origin in the steppes.
3.- Malopolska men are clearly dolichocephalic, then their ancestors from the steppes should also be dolichocephalic. Or may be they changed the size of their skulls when they arrived in Central Europe? Because everyone think that genetically CWC is 100% eastern, is not it?
4.- BBs migrants was mixed with dolichocephalic CWC women. I guess no one will doubt that the BB migrants could acquire part of their autosomic steppe DNA of these women. Although in these pages, I read that certain people denied categorically that BB men had CWC women.
5.- There were already mound burials in Western Europe (Great Britain-Spain), before the Polish BBs (2.300-2.240 BC) learned this practice of the Malopolska CWC.
6.- The rounding of the head, occurred spontaneously from primitive dolichocephalic forms in several regions of Europe (mainly Alps and Pyrenees) according to a mechanism that is not identical for all brachycephalic races.
7.- The old classification of races, said that the Nordic and Mediterranean caucasic races were dolichocephalic and the Alpine race-Brachycephalic. Then the BBS brachicephaly is Central European (Alps)
8.-Currently, it is Known the causes susceptible to change the size of the head are the Action of the chewing muscles, the influence of the environment through the endocrine glands, the stature (the greater the stature, the greater the dolichocephaly), the population isolation and the consanguinity.

anglesqueville
06-24-2018, 04:56 PM
Hopeful after a nice glass of wine you will reconsider, if not you'll be sorely missed.

Believe it or not, I hate wine. After a glass of Port Charlotte or Bruichladdich, well, perhaps.

jdean
06-24-2018, 05:28 PM
Believe it or not, I hate wine. After a glass of Port Charlotte or Bruichladdich, well, perhaps.

Actually I am struggling with this concept : )

Personally I don't drink much spirits and favour pastis over whisky but being Welsh national pride doesn't really come into it since we're much better known for our beer (which I love) than our skill at distilling : )))

alan
06-24-2018, 05:29 PM
Another group who exactly followed Central European beaker burial body/gender orientation rules were the Maros or Mures culture of parts of Romania, Hungary and Serbia . But they are not old enough to be ancestral and it’s seen as beaker influence them c 2500BC.

alan
06-24-2018, 05:45 PM
I have in recent months buried myself in papers relating the archaeology of Europe c2800-2500BC between the old iron curtain line and the Dnieper and I certainly have not found a smoking gun BUT I now can see that changes to a north-south body orientation, archery kits, hollow based arrowheads, knives and long distance trade swept a huge area of Central Europe and the western steppes c2600BC. Beaker fits right into this. So it’s clearly a manifestation of a new wave of change that swept that zone between the Dnieper and Iron curtain about 150- 200 years after the primary CW wave west.

etrusco
06-24-2018, 05:57 PM
Another group who exactly followed Central European beaker burial body/gender orientation rules were the Maros or Mures culture of parts of Romania, Hungary and Serbia . But they are not old enough to be ancestral and it’s seen as beaker influence them c 2500BC.


Yes, it is the intrusive bell beaker culture in this area that laid the basis for the formation of the dynaric type, which IIRC did not exist before.

alan
06-24-2018, 06:02 PM
I have in recent months buried myself in papers relating the archaeology of Europe c2800-2500BC between the old iron curtain line and the Dnieper and I certainly have not found a smoking gun BUT I now can see that changes to a north-south body orientation, archery kits, hollow based arrowheads, knives and long distance trade swept a huge area of Central Europe and the western steppes c2600BC. Beaker fits right into this. So it’s clearly a manifestation of a new wave of change that swept that zone between the Dnieper and Iron curtain about 150- 200 years after the primary CW wave west.
...and the zone between the Dnieper and the Danube mouth and the Carpathians is a crazy melting pot of forest zone CW, the middle Dnieper culture, forest steppe Yamnaya, Budzhak steppe Yamnaya, early catacomb, GAC, v late TRB and other players. Every characteristic of the P312 Central European beaker can be seen in that zone and these cultures heavily interacted with each other as a tradition of long distance prestige exchange is very obvious c 2800-2500BC. That this involved at least a small component of actual human movement can be seen in the convergence of burial ideas. At the very least a mobile element in one or more of those cultures moved moved about and not only transported materials and prestige goods but also witnessed enough of other societies to spread ideas between cultures. No doubt the intermarried too. That just needs a group of mobile trading lineages not a huge population movement. The archaeology would support that sort of scenario rather than mass invasions. The P312 line strikes me as prime suspect for such a group doing this role in the immediate pre-beaker centuries in that zone between the Dnieper and Poland etc

alan
06-24-2018, 08:53 PM
Yes, it is the intrusive bell beaker culture in this area that laid the basis for the formation of the dynaric type, which IIRC did not exist before.

Perhaps the unusual Z2103 dominated beaker lines seen at Csepel are linked to Maros culture cloning the Central European beaker burial tradition without actually becoming beaker people. This may have happened around Budapest c2500BC. I honestly think the ancestors of the P312 steppe beaker folk are so hard to pin down because they may have been an inter-culture group whose specific niche was that very role of running the exchange networks between cultures rather than being a normal part any of them. basically a mobile outgroup belonging to no one culture or territory. To find them in pre beaker times we should look to evidence of a beaker like behaving outgroup and exchange networks in Eastern Europe prior to the P312-beaker link. We should seek their geographical location or neywor

etrusco
06-24-2018, 09:21 PM
Elzbieta Haduch- "The groups of BB people are the stranger element not only in Central Europe (Desideri, Eades, 2.002). There is no doubt from an anthropological point of view, that BBs are distinguised from the CWC people. BB skulls in Poland are short (brachycraneal), in contrast, the CWC people had the longer ones (dolichocranial). The biological differences are confirmed in the sphere of material culture and funeral practice, bring out BBS strangeness with respect to local societies. Dialogue between neighbouring locals and migrants, as well as mutual assimilation of the traits of their cultures were possible"

"The presence of long-headed female skeletons in the BBC indicates their local origin and the great probability of incorporation local inhabitants to the newcomer groups.Brachy-and mesocephalic male skulls from CWC graves also confirms contacts with BBC groups". Conclusions:

1.- Haduch is talking about Malopolska CW culture (2.750-2.350 B.C)-BB culture in Malopolska Upland- Samborzec (2.300 BC) and Sandomierz (2.240 BC).
2.- Malopolska CWC is fundamentally R1a and it has its origin in the steppes.
3.- Malopolska men are clearly dolichocephalic, then their ancestors from the steppes should also be dolichocephalic. Or may be they changed the size of their skulls when they arrived in Central Europe? Because everyone think that genetically CWC is 100% eastern, is not it?
4.- BBs migrants was mixed with dolichocephalic CWC women. I guess no one will doubt that the BB migrants could acquire part of their autosomic steppe DNA of these women. Although in these pages, I read that certain people denied categorically that BB men had CWC women.
5.- There were already mound burials in Western Europe (Great Britain-Spain), before the Polish BBs (2.300-2.240 BC) learned this practice of the Malopolska CWC.
6.- The rounding of the head, occurred spontaneously from primitive dolichocephalic forms in several regions of Europe (mainly Alps and Pyrenees) according to a mechanism that is not identical for all brachycephalic races.
7.- The old classification of races, said that the Nordic and Mediterranean caucasic races were dolichocephalic and the Alpine race-Brachycephalic. Then the BBS brachicephaly is Central European (Alps)
8.-Currently, it is Known the causes susceptible to change the size of the head are the Action of the chewing muscles, the influence of the environment through the endocrine glands, the stature (the greater the stature, the greater the dolichocephaly), the population isolation and the consanguinity.


Interesting these BB taking CW brides.... that is very difficult to deny since BB folks entered CW territory ( not in big numbers) and IIRC they had like an elite influence. Also important to remember that Hittites too IIRC were strongly brachycephal. This physical trait coupled with the presence of cremation ritual it is a sign they entered anatolia from the balkans. More accurate genetic tests will tell us if they were full old europe or eastern bell beakers going further south.

alan
06-24-2018, 09:49 PM
One simple way of dismissing the Iberian aspect to the P312 beaker people is look at the culture of the earliest area where P312 beaker people are known (the bell beaker east group) and ask yourself how many of their traits have proven parallels at an earlier date in Iberia. I think virtually none. The possibility of any link hinges of the interpretation of the origin of the beaker pot in Central Europe. I think people tend to overlook this fact. Around 2550BC when the bell beaker east group occurs in Germany there is no geographically intermediate group between them and Iberian beaker users. Even the South French Rhône group are no longer considered to predate 2500BC.

It also is very apparent that extremely beaker-like beakers were already present in CW groups in east Central Europe. In east central Europe the tradition of single burial with a beaker predates the existence of the bell beaker east group. Another thing to consider is the bell beaker east group beakers do not have as close a resemblance to Iberian beakers as the beaker East’s offshoot in the Rhine. The Rhenish beaker group is not as old so it’s greater similarity to Iberian beaker is simply a result of a move west meaning contacts with SW Europe were greater - probably using a long established Lower Rhine CW link with SW Europe relating to Grand Pressigny Flint and perhaps the Rhine-Rhône route to contact Iberian non steppe beaker settlers on the Rhône. The key thing to keep in mind is the Rhenish groups are an offshoot of the beaker east group and therefore not ancestral. They and therefore the western influence on beaker form and arrow type are secondary things and not relevant to them the salient attested P312 Bell beaker east group 2 generations earlier c2550BC.

We must discount secondary acretions to the P312 beaker culture after 2500BC as the beaker culture was magpie like in portable objects and pottery (that magpie thing may be due to their very raison d’etre being domination of exotica and trade). Imo opinion when you strip the bell beaker east group back to fundementals (baring in mind Csepel is a weird 3rd generation melting pot offshoot too) the. it looks nothing like Iberian beaker culture but looks a great deal like other groups east of the iron cutain/west of the Dnieper c 2600BC.

Indeed I think Iberian beaker itself probably was simply a pottery idea (probably moving with a few women from CW/final TRB substrate of the Rhine area) that reached Iberia c 2750BC via the Grand Presigny network which stretched from the French-Spanish border to Holland and north Germany at that time. So I think the illusion that the early Iberian beaker groups c 2750-2500BC and the Central European bmeaker east group had Common ancestry is simply an artefact of both groups using a pot type acquired from a common third source - CW of north-central Europe in the period c2750-2550BC. It created an illusion of a direct link that has been already disproved by ancient dna.

The two groups had no common ancestry and only met after 2500BC when the P312 steppe beaker people settled the Rhine at the same time the Iberian beaker users settled the Rhône and probably Atlantic France. From that point onwards there was indeed mutual influence and contact/trade but this was largely in portable material culture and the burial customs remained distinct until the P312 beaker people finally penetrated Iberia on the late beaker era.

alan
06-24-2018, 10:06 PM
I would not read too much into the beaker skulls. They were a single relatively young lineage that expanded across a huge swath of Europe in 3 generations. They were practically an extended family! The close resemblance from Poland to Britain and the retention of a distinctive autosomal signature across centuries suggests they were inbred and although they married across distance, it must have been restricted to other beaker people. So imo the beaker look is more akin to a family trait than an ethnic one. Apparently their body proportions (fall and slender) were identical to CW people. There is no known precursor to the classic beaker skulls anywhere in Europe or Asia so that kind of backs up the idea it was more like a family trait than a racial one. It can happen with exclusive marriage systems - the British aristocrats often have the same face - kind of look like like horses!

etrusco
06-24-2018, 10:11 PM
Do you Know any interesting paper about BB culture in Italy, that serves to make us an exact idea of the geographical extension of this culture in your country ? (Valle de Aosta, Piamonte, Lombardia, Sicilia...).

Regarding the conquest of Old Europe, don´t worry, NO prestigious European arqueologist thinks that something similar could happen. Of course, there were also no conquests in France, Italy or Spain. Population movements of small family clans have only been shown in search of fertile farmland and pastures for livestock. The rest only exists in the minds of people who have an idealized or romantic vision of European Prehistory. The Western (Iberia), Central (Italy) and Eastern (Balkans, Greece) cultures were technologically far superior to the nomads of the steppes. The proof is the influence exercised by european farmers in Yamnaya.

It seems a joke to afirm an oriental origin, when the BB groups closest with Yamnaya, not only have different burial rites, but also genetically they are totally different (Hungarian BBs are predominantly I2a). It would not be more logical to think that the closer they were to their origin the better they would preserve their traditions and that these would be lost over time and through contact with Western populations.

The origin of our haplogroup R1b could be Eastern, (but in any case, very old), so, none of us is Anti-estepist, what we cannot accept is a late Post 2.900 BC migration that reach Germany, France and Spain, because it has no sense neither archaelogically, nor linguistically, anthropologically, genetically.

Un saludo.


It is already clear that everything connected with cultural traits of people speaking IE languages were practically all derived with the interactions with the world of the farmers :
flexed and gendered burial ( n/s or e/w oriented)
cremation
likely even the kurgan themselves
metallurgical activity



I never saw in history a conquest or an invasion that does not manifest in a considerable change in material culture ( a big exception is the roman conquest of greece : grecia capta ferum victorem cepit!)
I never saw in history a conquest were the conquerors completely deserted their homeland ( I mean the R1b one because the R1a was different). Did the british deserted london while conquering australia and canada .....did the arabs deserted arabia while conquering north africa and much of the middle east....
so clearly a migration....but what they were fleeing remains a mystery ( plague, internal conflict....they were pushed by other peoples moving west?).

As for the big change in Ydna lineages it is quite impressive to say the least... nobody can deny that and we must give a solution.....well I have it.
I think the simplest explanation is.....a big gap in fertility rates....if the steppe people had a fertility rate double that of the farmers it is no wonder that in a couple of centuries they took the lead genetically....yes this could have triggered a language change no doubt about it....but wait in europe in the next couple of centuries ( maybe sooner...) we will have a surge in african Ydna lineages because of migration coupled with higher fertility rates ( especially in my and your country Gaska ....) but I doubt we will have any significant change in the linguistic landscape of the continent ( unless islam starts to expand seriously).
never forget farmers culturally influenced the steppe for at least 1500 years....nobody can deny that could have triggered a language shift from kiev to samara.
so all in all migration plus higher fertility rates could be a likely explanation that justifies both the change in Ydna and at the same time the stability in material culture.
Sorry everybody for the stream of consciousness.....
We'll see what happens! (Trump) eagerly waiting for anatolia and central and southern italy tests.

etrusco
06-24-2018, 10:25 PM
Also this...worth reading....

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/06/guest-post-we-owe-many-of-our-genetic.html

dsm
06-24-2018, 10:34 PM
Looking some days ago into another thread, playground of another anti-steppist (or Anti-estepist?), I felt like I had fallen in a time loop. It's the same here. I prefer to get out while I can. Adíos!

Don't imagine that people here can't see the problem. But, as long as our peers here are willing to humour the 'debate' there is a great opportunity to learn. Rms2, Alan, rrocca, yourself, etrusco etc: provide excellent logical and authoritative referenced information - those supplying emotion can be easily seen. So, no need to exit, when the time suits just ignore the illogical loop the loop parts of the debate. Then, it will fade away.

R.Rocca
06-24-2018, 10:55 PM
It is an off-topic but you said some weeks ago on this thread that ancient european farmers spoke Afro-Asiatic languages....seems that Carlos agree with you:

https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/saharas-rather-pale-green-and-discontinuous-sahelo-sudanian-steppe-corridor-and-the-r1b-afroasiatic-connection/

Never heard before about this link between R1b and nostratic......the link would be R1b V-88 = AA languages.....

Iron Gates hunter-gatherers in the Balkans were almost entirely R-V88. Also, R-V88 was found in Iberian and German Neolithic samples. Given that there is no linguistic remnant of Afro-Asiatic in Europe, I find it difficult to assume that R-V88 had anything to do with it in Europe. In fact, I think R-V88 may have been a secondary Proto-Basque/Paleo-Sardinian speaking lineage with the primary one being I2a-M26. That is not to say that R-V88 wasn't involved in AA in Africa though, but the R-V88 that went to Africa may have done so a very, very long time ago.

jdean
06-24-2018, 11:09 PM
Don't imagine that people here can't see the problem. But, as long as our peers here are willing to humour the 'debate' there is a great opportunity to learn. Rms2, Alan, rrocca, yourself etc: provide excellent logical and authorative referenced information - those supplying emotion can be easily seen. So, no need to exit, when the time suits just ignore the illogical loop the loop parts of the debate. Then, it will fade away.

There are of course going to be more than a few included under etc but Agamemnon is another very noteworthy contributer to Anthrogenica

etrusco
06-24-2018, 11:30 PM
Don't imagine that people here can't see the problem. But, as long as our peers here are willing to humour the 'debate' there is a great opportunity to learn. Rms2, Alan, rrocca, yourself etc: provide excellent logical and authorative referenced information - those supplying emotion can be easily seen. So, no need to exit, when the time suits just ignore the illogical loop the loop parts of the debate. Then, it will fade away.

Guess you were referring to me but generally anti-steppist completely deny any movement of people and rely on a nativist explanation.....well I did not do that. I clearly recognize both

movement of people from the steppe and at the same time the steppe origin of both r1a and r1b. I'm not a "nativist" nor I'm not able to recognize the reality of the genetic data so far.
But at the same time I was referring to a general cultural landscape that does not match the genetic change. Two things that IMHO are at odds with each other.
Then I searched for an explanation...and I gave my opinion using "I think" and the verb "could" which in your native language have a clear meaning....
Do not use the verb humor when you talk about other's people opinions ( unless they are deliberately provocative or trolls or whatever) ...I remember a post of rms2 that said ten years ago ( more or less) most of guys on genetic forums said that modern DNA distribution more or less mirrored ancient one.....it is now evident this is not the case as the data shows for example regarding R1b in western europe. So everyone be aware not to make the same "end" regarding theories that seem apparently unchallengeable or unfalsifiable.

jdean
06-24-2018, 11:35 PM
Guess you were referring to me but generally anti-steppist completely deny any movement of people and rely on a nativist explanation.....well I did not do that. I clearly recognize both

movement of people from the steppe and at the same time the steppe origin of both r1a and r1b. I'm not a "nativist" nor I'm not able to recognize the reality of the genetic data so far.
But at the same time I was referring to a general cultural landscape that does not match the genetic change. Two things that IMHO are at odds with each other.
Then I searched for an explanation...and I gave my opinion using "I think" and the verb "could" which in your native language have a clear meaning....
Do not use the verb humor when you talk about other's people opinions ( unless they are deliberately provocative or trolls or whatever) ...I remember a post of rms2 that said ten years ago ( more or less) most of guys on genetic forums said that modern DNA more or less mirrored ancient one.....it is now evident this is not the case as the data shows for example regarding R1b in western europe. So everyone be aware not to make the same "end" regarding theories that seem apparently unchallengeable or unfalsifiable.

I can't speak for dsm but I don't think he had you in mind, questioning the Steppe hypothesis isn't the problem it's the folk who absolutely deny any of the evidence no matter what.

alan
06-24-2018, 11:49 PM
Don't imagine that people here can't see the problem. But, as long as our peers here are willing to humour the 'debate' there is a great opportunity to learn. Rms2, Alan, rrocca, yourself etc: provide excellent logical and authorative referenced information - those supplying emotion can be easily seen. So, no need to exit, when the time suits just ignore the illogical loop the loop parts of the debate. Then, it will fade away.

The site really misses Jean Manco. Other than her other good work, she was a tireless caller out of bullshit and didnt mind if it brought a backlash to her. Personally I cant be bothered with the grief of calling out all the nonsense but she did the site a great service by acting almost as a moderators and making it a thoroughly uncomfortable place for chauvinists and other irrational characters.

dsm
06-25-2018, 12:01 AM
I can't speak for dsm but I don't think he had you in mind, questioning the Steppe hypothesis isn't the problem it's the folk who absolutely deny any of the evidence no matter what.

Spot on!. Etrusco, please keep up your contributions. D

alan
06-25-2018, 12:24 AM
Sanother group who buried bodies north-south with both sexes crouched facing east with men on left and women on right (the exact same as bell beaker) was the Swedish battle axe culture https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dbC6BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=douglas-price+swedish+battle+axe+burials+north-south&source=bl&ots=3pdyH_mnyI&sig=uKQAbrnWFGdiSqAqtmT_D9ih09g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTyND1xO3bAhXCAsAKHVaNDwoQ6AEwCnoECAIQA Q#v=onepage&q=douglas-price%20swedish%20battle%20axe%20burials%20north-south&f=false

rms2
06-25-2018, 01:01 AM
Elzbieta Haduch- "The groups of BB people are the stranger element not only in Central Europe (Desideri, Eades, 2.002). There is no doubt from an anthropological point of view, that BBs are distinguised from the CWC people. BB skulls in Poland are short (brachycraneal), in contrast, the CWC people had the longer ones (dolichocranial). The biological differences are confirmed in the sphere of material culture and funeral practice, bring out BBS strangeness with respect to local societies. Dialogue between neighbouring locals and migrants, as well as mutual assimilation of the traits of their cultures were possible"

"The presence of long-headed female skeletons in the BBC indicates their local origin and the great probability of incorporation local inhabitants to the newcomer groups.Brachy-and mesocephalic male skulls from CWC graves also confirms contacts with BBC groups". Conclusions:

1.- Haduch is talking about Malopolska CW culture (2.750-2.350 B.C)-BB culture in Malopolska Upland- Samborzec (2.300 BC) and Sandomierz (2.240 BC).
2.- Malopolska CWC is fundamentally R1a and it has its origin in the steppes.
3.- Malopolska men are clearly dolichocephalic, then their ancestors from the steppes should also be dolichocephalic. Or may be they changed the size of their skulls when they arrived in Central Europe? Because everyone think that genetically CWC is 100% eastern, is not it?
4.- BBs migrants was mixed with dolichocephalic CWC women. I guess no one will doubt that the BB migrants could acquire part of their autosomic steppe DNA of these women. Although in these pages, I read that certain people denied categorically that BB men had CWC women.

The "Corded Ware wives" hogwash has already been tried, and it doesn't make sense.

According to the paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), the mtDNA profile of Globular Amphora was closest to Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from Corded Ware, Yamnaya, and Srubnaya. If the mtDNA profile of GAC was closest to Bell Beaker and clearly separated from Corded Ware, then Bell Beaker could not have had a mtDNA profile like that of Corded Ware. If Bell Beaker men were taking Corded Ware wives and acquiring steppe dna for their offspring and much of their culture from them, then Bell Beaker's mtDNA profile should reflect that, but it doesn't.



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).

If BB men did take Corded Ware wives, those wives would not have been innovators, introducing their language and culture to their BB husbands.

This is from page 153 of David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:



But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation.

If Kurgan Bell Beaker was the product of Bell Beaker men taking wives from among the Corded Ware people, where did the R1b-P312 BB men come from? Were they European Neolithic farmers? If so, why hasn't R1b-P312 shown up in the growing number of European Neolithic samples?

Why is it that among Olalde et al's Bell Beaker samples, all of the R1b-M269 samples (which of course includes R1b-P312) have steppe dna and the only samples lacking it are not R1b-M269?

I posted Davidski's latest qpGraph tree a few posts back. It shows British Bell Beaker derived directly from Yamnaya, and Davidski now says Kurgan Bell Beaker may have had as much as 80-90% steppe dna. It isn't likely they acquired all that by taking the occasional CW bride.




5.- There were already mound burials in Western Europe (Great Britain-Spain), before the Polish BBs (2.300-2.240 BC) learned this practice of the Malopolska CWC . . .

The Long Barrows were collective, Neolithic tombs and nothing like the Round Barrows (kurgans) of Kurgan Bell Beaker and of Yamnaya before it. Not all mounds are alike.

Kurgan Bell Beaker burial rites differed from those of Corded Ware. If the KBB people learned their single grave burial practice from CW, then they got it wrong.

anglesqueville
06-25-2018, 06:11 AM
Guess you were referring to me but generally anti-steppist completely deny any movement of people and rely on a nativist explanation.....well I did not do that. I clearly recognize both

movement of people from the steppe and at the same time the steppe origin of both r1a and r1b. I'm not a "nativist" nor I'm not able to recognize the reality of the genetic data so far.
But at the same time I was referring to a general cultural landscape that does not match the genetic change. Two things that IMHO are at odds with each other.
Then I searched for an explanation...and I gave my opinion using "I think" and the verb "could" which in your native language have a clear meaning....
Do not use the verb humor when you talk about other's people opinions ( unless they are deliberately provocative or trolls or whatever) ...I remember a post of rms2 that said ten years ago ( more or less) most of guys on genetic forums said that modern DNA distribution more or less mirrored ancient one.....it is now evident this is not the case as the data shows for example regarding R1b in western europe. So everyone be aware not to make the same "end" regarding theories that seem apparently unchallengeable or unfalsifiable.

When I spoke of some obsessional anti-steppist I was not thinking of you. Anyway being "anti-steppist" is not a crime, and anybody is of course allowed to "be anti-steppist" (whatever that may mean). Your interventions on here and on the french subforum (where you have become a friend, perhaps you don't know that) have always been sensible and positive. No I was thinking of a guy who makes every thread which he enters painful to read, with his mental sickness of "aryan" purity etc. Nothing to see with you.

GASKA
06-25-2018, 08:26 AM
One simple way of dismissing the Iberian aspect to the P312 beaker people is look at the culture of the earliest area where P312 beaker people are known (the bell beaker east group) and ask yourself how many of their traits have proven parallels at an earlier date in Iberia. I think virtually none. The possibility of any link hinges of the interpretation of the origin of the beaker pot in Central Europe. I think people tend to overlook this fact. Around 2550BC when the bell beaker east group occurs in Germany there is no geographically intermediate group between them and Iberian beaker users. Even the South French Rhône group are no longer considered to predate 2500BC.

It also is very apparent that extremely beaker-like beakers were already present in CW groups in east Central Europe. In east central Europe the tradition of single burial with a beaker predates the existence of the bell beaker east group. Another thing to consider is the bell beaker east group beakers do not have as close a resemblance to Iberian beakers as the beaker East’s offshoot in the Rhine. The Rhenish beaker group is not as old so it’s greater similarity to Iberian beaker is simply a result of a move west meaning contacts with SW Europe were greater - probably using a long established Lower Rhine CW link with SW Europe relating to Grand Pressigny Flint and perhaps the Rhine-Rhône route to contact Iberian non steppe beaker settlers on the Rhône. The key thing to keep in mind is the Rhenish groups are an offshoot of the beaker east group and therefore not ancestral. They and therefore the western influence on beaker form and arrow type are secondary things and not relevant to them the salient attested P312 Bell beaker east group 2 generations earlier c2550BC.

We must discount secondary acretions to the P312 beaker culture after 2500BC as the beaker culture was magpie like in portable objects and pottery (that magpie thing may be due to their very raison d’etre being domination of exotica and trade). Imo opinion when you strip the bell beaker east group back to fundementals (baring in mind Csepel is a weird 3rd generation melting pot offshoot too) the. it looks nothing like Iberian beaker culture but looks a great deal like other groups east of the iron cutain/west of the Dnieper c 2600BC.

Indeed I think Iberian beaker itself probably was simply a pottery idea (probably moving with a few women from CW/final TRB substrate of the Rhine area) that reached Iberia c 2750BC via the Grand Presigny network which stretched from the French-Spanish border to Holland and north Germany at that time. So I think the illusion that the early Iberian beaker groups c 2750-2500BC and the Central European bmeaker east group had Common ancestry is simply an artefact of both groups using a pot type acquired from a common third source - CW of north-central Europe in the period c2750-2550BC. It created an illusion of a direct link that has been already disproved by ancient dna.

The two groups had no common ancestry and only met after 2500BC when the P312 steppe beaker people settled the Rhine at the same time the Iberian beaker users settled the Rhône and probably Atlantic France. From that point onwards there was indeed mutual influence and contact/trade but this was largely in portable material culture and the burial customs remained distinct until the P312 beaker people finally penetrated Iberia on the late beaker era.

How many of their traits have proven parallels at an earlier date in Iberia?- Regarding Material Culture-EVERYONE. It's normal because for example wristguards exist in Europe since men hunted with archers (paleolithic). In fact in Iberia we have found them in neolithic caves (Nerja), and in calcholithic, we have found them in pre-BB strata (R. Rocca send us a post with preBB wristguards in el Portalón). Harrison & Heyd demonstrated the existence in the stuary of the Tagus river of a BB pre-package (2.800-2.700 BC).V shaped bone buttons, copper daggers, gold objects, textile manufacturing and of course ceramics. Regarding the arrowheads, the old type, were replaced (2.900-2.700 BC) by tanged and barbed arrowheads when an increase of violence was observed (defense of the food reserves), since due to their shape, they were more deadly than the others due to the difficulty of their extraction. All objects related to this culture are found in Iberia in great abundance.

You don't need a geographically intermediate group between German BBs and Iberian BBs, because that is why maritime trade already exists (Sicily, north Africa.......). In any case, no matter how much you try to delay the existence of BBC in Germany, because this culture will never be as old as in Iberia.

In Iberia, the tradition of single burial predates the existence of BB culture. (Valencina de la Concepción, Sevilla).

In Spain, still has not been published papers referring to BB burials (2.750-2.550 BC), then it s materially impossible for you to Know what was their genetic makeup. There are only data (Olalde) from 2 sites in Portugal where the men were I2a (exactly the same as in Csepel).

I think that a post 2.900 migration from the steppes is also an illusion.

GASKA
06-25-2018, 09:19 AM
The "Corded Ware wives" hogwash has already been tried, and it doesn't make sense.

According to the paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), the mtDNA profile of Globular Amphora was closest to Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from Corded Ware, Yamnaya, and Srubnaya. If the mtDNA profile of GAC was closest to Bell Beaker and clearly separated from Corded Ware, then Bell Beaker could not have had a mtDNA profile like that of Corded Ware. If Bell Beaker men were taking Corded Ware wives and acquiring steppe dna for their offspring and much of their culture from them, then Bell Beaker's mtDNA profile should reflect that, but it doesn't.



If BB men did take Corded Ware wives, those wives would not have been innovators, introducing their language and culture to their BB husbands.

This is from page 153 of David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:



If Kurgan Bell Beaker was the product of Bell Beaker men taking wives from among the Corded Ware people, where did the R1b-P312 BB men come from? Were they European Neolithic farmers? If so, why hasn't R1b-P312 shown up in the growing number of European Neolithic samples?

Why is it that among Olalde et al's Bell Beaker samples, all of the R1b-M269 samples (which of course includes R1b-P312) have steppe dna and the only samples lacking it are not R1b-M269?

I posted Davidski's latest qpGraph tree a few posts back. It shows British Bell Beaker derived directly from Yamnaya, and Davidski now says Kurgan Bell Beaker may have had as much as 80-90% steppe dna. It isn't likely they acquired all that by taking the occasional CW bride.




The Long Barrows were collective, Neolithic tombs and nothing like the Round Barrows (kurgans) of Kurgan Bell Beaker and of Yamnaya before it. Not all mounds are alike.

Kurgan Bell Beaker burial rites differed from those of Corded Ware. If the KBB people learned their single grave burial practice from CW, then they got it wrong.

You must read- "BB and CW people in the little Poland upland- Anthropological point of view". All the Eastern BBs groups (Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia) and the Central European groups (Germany, Switzerland, Denmark), were in contact for centuries (at least 200 years) with societies full of autosomal steppe dna.

You didn't say that the BB society were patrilineal and that they practiced exogamy?, or they only practice it with GAC women, because it suits you to demonstrate the steppe origin of men? I can send you some papers that say the opposite. In any case, this means that there is a real possibility of demonstrating scientifically that the autosomal dna of BBs doesn't necessarily have to have a male origin.

ffoucart
06-25-2018, 10:29 AM
In any case, this means that there is a real possibility of demonstrating scientifically that the autosomal dna of BBs doesn't necessarily have to have a male origin.

No. You don't have read one of the papers I've posted above. The Steppe admixture is very likely male-mediated. The results about chromosome X (plus other data) are clear.

alan
06-25-2018, 10:43 AM
Can we please keep this thread related to the Bell beaker east group in Central Europe and the melting pot east of the old iron curtain in east Central Europe and the western steppes. I don’t want yet another thread hijacked into a debate about the Iberian beaker model. Please just see this thread as a discussion for those who accept the current ancient dna evidence e that the P312 beaker group was a new lineage to farming Europe that has a common ancestor in the 4000s with the Z2103 lineage closely linked to Yamnaya and (surprise surprise) carrying a load of Yamnaya Autosomal ancestry. The situation c2800-2550BC between Germany and the steppes is complicated enough for one thread without extending the discussion to take in all of Europe

rms2
06-25-2018, 12:08 PM
Can we please keep this thread related to the Bell beaker east group in Central Europe and the melting pot east of the old iron curtain in east Central Europe and the western steppes. I don’t want yet another thread hijacked into a debate about the Iberian beaker model. Please just see this thread as a discussion for those who accept the current ancient dna evidence e that the P312 beaker group was a new lineage to farming Europe that has a common ancestor in the 4000s with the Z2103 lineage closely linked to Yamnaya and (surprise surprise) carrying a load of Yamnaya Autosomal ancestry. The situation c2800-2550BC between Germany and the steppes is complicated enough for one thread without extending the discussion to take in all of Europe

That would be nice, but we'll have to ignore the sounds of the undead Iberian zombie groaning and scraping at the door. Apparently facts won't kill it.

ffoucart
06-25-2018, 12:23 PM
That would be nice, but we'll have to ignore the sounds of the undead Iberian zombie groaning and scraping at the door. Apparently facts won't kill it.

You need "The Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch". But beware! The monster of the Cave of Caerbannog is protecting it.

dsm
06-25-2018, 11:40 PM
That would be nice, but we'll have to ignore the sounds of the undead Iberian zombie groaning and scraping at the door. Apparently facts won't kill it.

To your credit (and others who do the same) the delivery of facts and details and critical analysis has made this thread a treasure trove of information. I agree that one needs to filter out particular cyclic background noise, but, for better or for worse, we can glean a very sound understanding of Eastern Bell Beaker and the region in and around Silesia, Moldavia, Bohemia etc: etc: etc:

Thanks for all the effort you have put in even if you feel a bit frustrated.

D

rms2
06-26-2018, 12:01 AM
But alan is right. We need to get back to the original topic of this thread. It was really meant for people who accept the Olalde et al results and conclusions and not as a throwback to the pre-Olalde days, when people were actually still arguing that P312 originated in Iberia and expecting to be taken seriously.

GoldenHind
06-26-2018, 12:30 AM
You need "The Holy Hand-Grenade of Antioch". But beware! The monster of the Cave of Caerbannog is protecting it.

Is the monster you refer to the bunny?

ffoucart
06-26-2018, 05:28 AM
Is the monster you refer to the bunny?

It's a Killer Bunny.

The Holy Grail movie is depicting a world very similar to the one in which are living the forumers mentionned by rms2.

anglesqueville
06-26-2018, 07:08 AM
It's a Killer Bunny.

The Holy Grail movie is depicting a world very similar to the one in which are living the forumers mentionned by rms2.

We have definitely the same references my friend (even if I prefer the Meaning of Life and the Life of Bryan, without speaking of the Ruttles). Hail Monty Python!

razyn
06-26-2018, 12:16 PM
I don’t want yet another thread hijacked into a debate about the Iberian beaker model.


That would be nice, but we'll have to ignore the sounds of the undead Iberian zombie groaning and scraping at the door. Apparently facts won't kill it.

It's shuffled off this mortal coil, and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. It is an ex-parrot.

alan
06-26-2018, 12:23 PM
I'm Brian and so's my corded ware wife!

alan
06-26-2018, 12:26 PM
Someone should start another thread called 'The yeti, Springheeled Jack, the great pumpkin, The Iberian beaker theory, the Loch Ness Monster and other myths I believe in'

alan
06-26-2018, 12:54 PM
I think in a nutshell that there were two groups who used beaker vessels. One group was in the far south-west of Europe and appear to be a farmer group who acquired a north-central European pottery model c. 2750BC. The other was a steppe group who probably acquired a similar model for beaker pots from north-central Europeans or Carpathian/steppe fringe peoples c. 2600BC. In other words the beaker pot model taken up c. 2750-2600BC at two widely separated parts of Europe probably got the basic model from a third intermediate source. Personally, given the extreme weakness of the pottery tradition in actual steppe groups, it was likely that a strong tradition of pottery in burial and specifically use of beaker type drinking vessels was acquired from either the CW zone (with their GAC and TRB substrates) or from near-steppe groups at the eastern interface between farmers and steppe peoples. I think a model of two very different groups (Iberian and P312 east beaker group) acquiring (probably through contact and movement of women) a very similar pottery type from a group (CW and related) that spanned the whole area between the steppes and the Rhine/Switzerland c 2800BC makes a great deal of sense and it is this that has confounded archaeologists in to thinking they were related groups from the get-go.

In reality I think the Iberian beaker users and east beaker P312 steppe group (and the pre-beaker early P312 culture whatever that was) were not in contact directly at all until after 2500BC when descendants of the beaker east P312 group reached the Rhine and opened up trade contacts with the west. They shared new pottery models acquired at opposite ends of Europe from a third intermediate culture (it surely has to be CW and their TRB substrates) and the early acquiring of a totally alien type of pottery by Iberians totally confused archaeologists who made the mistake of defining cultures by pottery. Noone can fail to be struck by the many beaker type vessels seen in Corded Ware and cultures fringing the steppes. Its got to be the origin of the bell beaker. Indeed even the technical aspects of the pottery making of early beakers looks like it is derived from an area where the CW shape was combined with a TRB substrate (i.e north-central Europe). It really seems very likely that this reached Iberia by the Grand Pressigny flint trade route which stretched from north Germany through the Low Countries to the source and further south-west to the Iberian border. There are also also corded Iberian beaker pots with a northern and eastern distribution in the peninsula which also appear to date to at least not long after 2700BC. That indicates a link with the CW world continued and permitted not just the beaker shape but other CW decorative aspects to enter Iberia rather early. The fact that the beaker shape and also (apparently as a separate influence) and corded decorated beakers of east/north Iberia appeared in the period 2800-2700BC or so coincides so well with the date of arrival of CW on the Rhine and Switzerland makes it very hard to believe that is pure coincidence. When you add the Grand Pressigny trail then it looks very clear. I dont think the Med. route was involved as there actually seems to be rather a lack of contact with the Med. further east in the materials and burial traditions of the Iberian early chalcolithic and beaker period c. 3100-2500BC.

rms2
06-26-2018, 01:38 PM
You can see an apparently violent clash of the two different Beaker traditions at Sion in Switzerland and at Aosta in northern Italy with the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people at both sites around 2425 BC, the destruction of the stone stelae (all of them were destroyed at Sion), and their reuse to construct new burial cists, which were reoriented from Neolithic-type collective tombs to family and single burials.

I posted some of this stuff over in the Bell Beaker R1b-L21 thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10825-Bell-Beaker-R1b-L21&p=424296&viewfull=1#post424296) because of Harrison and Heyd's remark that the famous Amesbury Archer might be linked to the Kurgan Bell Beaker immigrants at Sion.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 192:



Within two generations, another significant change takes place at both sites. This is the destruction horizon around 2425 BC, at the end of the early Beaker period, when stelae on both sites were smashed and their fragments used as building material in new monuments (see Fig. 10). This marks a fundamental change in the prevailing ideology on each site. Such a change is clearly abrupt, violent and conducted quickly, so that every image was broken and thrown down. Not one remains intact at Sion, where the destruction was more complete than at Aosta. The distinctive accompanying material includes Bell Beakers that have links to the East Group. It signals an ideological switch in allegiance, transferred from the old Rhine-Rhône axis, to the new focus on the Danube.

Ibid, page 170:



Interestingly (and important for understanding the role different regions play in the formation of the various Beaker ‘packages’) the wristguards are not found at Sion, and are not depicted on the stelae. We suspect they are a later addition to the Beaker ‘package’, originating from the Carpathian basin. They are not part of the earliest western Beaker ‘package’.


Ibid, page 187:



There are no wrist-guards found with early Beaker graves in northern Italy, southern France, or the early maritime beaker contexts in Iberia (see chapter 9.3). Only in the Bell Beaker East Group do they occur in a few early graves (Heyd 2001). Otherwise, we see many of them from the middle Bell Beaker period onwards, spreading widely in the EBA to Italy, France and Spain. Now the answer appears: the B-type stelae were engraved at a time when there were no wrist-guards in use. These objects arrive at Aosta only in the middle Beaker phase. Therefore, the objects shown on the Beaker stelae are older than those deposited in the tombs; indeed, they are so old that the inventory on the stelae actually precedes the formation of the classic ‘Beaker Package’ of artifacts. The difference is a chronological one; the stelae are created first, with symbols and inventories of southern origin; then the elements of the ‘Beaker Package’ arrive from the Danubian region. The rivalry that arose between the two was so great that the stelae were destroyed, and the new symbol code was imposed.


Ibid, page 192:



Our interpretation of these events is that the cists represent burial places restricted to one family, and they mark the definitive change from collective burials in the Final Neolithic.

We suggest that this destruction horizon is the intellectually transforming moment at both Sion and Aosta. The stable isotope studies describe how we can recognize individual immigrants coming to live at Sion from areas a long way to the east (Chiaradia et al. 2003). This moment is also reflected in the fundamental change of dental and cranial morphology of the Sion skeletons at the transition of the Final Neolithic to the Bell Beaker period (Desideri/Eades 2004), or, as we think, at the transition of the early to the middle Bell Beaker phase. This human mobility is convincing evidence that agrees with the distribution of artifact types, and the personal nature of the ornaments and weapons. In these burials we look upon the face of prehistoric Beaker migrants, who arrived as individuals, and not as a migratory population. It shows the importance of the individual person in promoting a cultural change. The conflict of ideas could therefore be seen as a doctrinal conflict within the Bell Beaker ideology. This fits the two distinct Beaker traditions that we identify, coming respectively from the southwest and the east. The Bell Beaker middle phase A2 is the climax of the development of the site. The cists reflect the new family based structures, that are dominant in the community and which follow the East Group customs (Heyd 2007).


From page 172:



In Sion, the early Beaker ideology from the west was violently challenged, and replaced by an antagonistic version of the same beliefs that came from the east, ultimately from the Carpathian basin and the middle Danube. The result was the obliteration of the specifically western Beaker ideology, and the stelae, which materialized it.

As I mentioned over on that other thread, the only y-dna results from Sion came from the stone cist known as Dolmen M XI. It was one of the first post-destruction horizon cists. There were three skeletons from Dolmen M XI successfully tested, two males and a female, all three with steppe dna. Here are the y-dna and mtDNA results for them:

I5755/BB_01_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: K2b1a

I5757/BB_18_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-L151 mtDNA: H3af

I5759/BB_23_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE mtDNA: U2e1c1

alan
06-26-2018, 02:01 PM
I think in a nutshell that there were two groups who used beaker vessels. One group was in the far south-west of Europe and appear to be a farmer group who acquired a north-central European pottery model c. 2750BC. The other was a steppe group who probably acquired a similar model for beaker pots from north-central Europeans or Carpathian/steppe fringe peoples c. 2600BC. In other words the beaker pot model taken up c. 2750-2600BC at two widely separated parts of Europe probably got the basic model from a third intermediate source. Personally, given the extreme weakness of the pottery tradition in actual steppe groups, it was likely that a strong tradition of pottery in burial and specifically use of beaker type drinking vessels was acquired from either the CW zone (with their GAC and TRB substrates) or from near-steppe groups at the eastern interface between farmers and steppe peoples. I think a model of two very different groups (Iberian and P312 east beaker group) acquiring (probably through contact and movement of women) a very similar pottery type from a group (CW and related) that spanned the whole area between the steppes and the Rhine/Switzerland c 2800BC makes a great deal of sense and it is this that has confounded archaeologists in to thinking they were related groups from the get-go.

In reality I think the Iberian beaker users and east beaker P312 steppe group (and the pre-beaker early P312 culture whatever that was) were not in contact directly at all until after 2500BC when descendants of the beaker east P312 group reached the Rhine and opened up trade contacts with the west. They shared new pottery models acquired at opposite ends of Europe from a third intermediate culture (it surely has to be CW and their TRB substrates) and the early acquiring of a totally alien type of pottery by Iberians totally confused archaeologists who made the mistake of defining cultures by pottery. Noone can fail to be struck by the many beaker type vessels seen in Corded Ware and cultures fringing the steppes. Its got to be the origin of the bell beaker. Indeed even the technical aspects of the pottery making of early beakers looks like it is derived from an area where the CW shape was combined with a TRB substrate (i.e north-central Europe). It really seems very likely that this reached Iberia by the Grand Pressigny flint trade route which stretched from north Germany through the Low Countries to the source and further south-west to the Iberian border. There are also also corded Iberian beaker pots with a northern and eastern distribution in the peninsula which also appear to date to at least not long after 2700BC. That indicates a link with the CW world continued and permitted not just the beaker shape but other CW decorative aspects to enter Iberia rather early. The fact that the beaker shape and also (apparently as a separate influence) and corded decorated beakers of east/north Iberia appeared in the period 2800-2700BC or so coincides so well with the date of arrival of CW on the Rhine and Switzerland makes it very hard to believe that is pure coincidence. When you add the Grand Pressigny trail then it looks very clear. I dont think the Med. route was involved as there actually seems to be rather a lack of contact with the Med. further east in the materials and burial traditions of the Iberian early chalcolithic and beaker period c. 3100-2500BC.

Following on, you have to weight the beaker pots itself sensibly as an ethnic indicator. On its own it should not be weighted to heavily for this purpose. You need to look at the whole picture of burial details, technology, specific preferences in weapon types, indicators of use of horses etc and NOT weight pottery any higher than the other aspects. When you look at bell beaker culture east group (proven to be P312 and the earliest P312 carrying beaker group) IN THE ROUND, its very obvious that every one of their traits can be found in what were relatively new trends sweeping the area between the Dniester and the Carpathian area and Danube mouth area c. 2600BC, OVERLAYING many of the older traits found in early off-steppes Yamnaya c. 3000BC and early CW wave groups of c. 2800-2700BC. Early bell beaker east group burial tradition traits strongly resemble those seen perhaps fractionally earlier in groups as varied as Swedish Battle Axe, Middle Dnieper (and its Fatyanovo offshoot), a coastal Polish battleaxe group (struggling to find more info on them), late Malopolska CW (Kracow-Sondomierz and nearby groups), the Budzakh Yamnaya variant etc. Not all those groups shared all traits but they did share a good number of them and they all appear to date to the same sort of period 2750-2550BC. Other groups with very beaker-like burial traits include Maros or Mures culture whose northern areas (probably the contact zone for those traits) stretched to parts of Hungary. However in this case it so far has not been proven to be pre-beaker so its best to set them aside as they cannot on present evidence be the origin. No culture is a clone of east bell beaker but it is that group of cultures that most resembles them.

So given that all, it seems pretty clear that the earliest beaker group who are proven P312 and steppe gene carriers were very much tied into what you could see as a secondary wave of new traits that spread out of the steppe-farmer interface zone around 2700-2600BC. Actually it is probably worth noting too that it was broadly around this time the Global Amphorae groups (apparently involved in long distance trade using the rivers between the Carpathians and Dnieper) reached their maximum penetration of those key rivers that linked north-central Europe to the western steppes. So it has struck me before that the beaker phenomenon and the sudden appearance of P312 lineages in north-central Europe by 2550BC could have been due to steppe groups usurping the trade routes established by the GAC groups around the time that the GAC groups were dying out. That provides a potential motivation. There was also inter-riverine trade running longitudinally between the middle to upper parts of the rivers between the north Carpathians and Dniester in which the middle Dnieper group (CW related but also linked with steppe and other groups) seems to have been very influential (metals in particular).

The arc of cultures I have outlined above that display some or many beaker-like traits around 2700-2550BC or so must be the key to the P312 beaker mystery. Some of the cultural traits shared almost certainly do not imply shared yDNA. It is fairly unlikely (though U106 still is a mystery) that for example Swedish Battle Axe carried P312 at all. However they followed absolutely identical body positioning/gender rules to the bell beaker east group. So, even if they did not share the same y-lines, the ancestors of both cultures were clearly very connected to each other and likely neighbours. My understanding is that Swedish battle axe used the beaker rules of body positioning from the start, contrasting with the more classic CW rules used in Denmark, most of Poland, Germany etc. What is important about this is that the Swedish battle axe group is pretty early and it indicates that their ancestors and ancestral pre-Sweden homeland was very close or closely connected to where the ancestors of the east beaker group was located. This of course then raises the whole problem of the ultimate roots of battle axe and indeed CW in general. Genetics is pretty clear that they were near-Yamnaya-clones and I suspect the close linkage with a pottery type was a secondary trait developed after exiting the steppes-proper, movement into the farming zone and mixing with a substrate such as GAC and TRB with such a tradition of identity expressed by pottery in life and death. I think this all clearly points to the zone between the Dnieper and the Carpathians in a timeframe post dating the initial Yamnaya and CW thrusts east c. 3000-2800BC but pre-dating eastern bell beaker c. 2550BC. I reckon with a bit more pondering I may be able to suggest a river valley that P312 may have been located on prior to its being linked to beaker pot. Clue - it was likely close to and interacting with (but not located on) another river that led battle axe people with very similar burial rites into Sweden. The same body position rites seem to apply in Middle Dnieper (to some degree), Fatyanovo and south Baltic battle axe. So I am guessing that the route up through the middle and upper Dniester northwards to the Baltic and Scandinavia was controlled by R1a people, Ancient DNA would seem to strongly imply it. Nevertheless, the similarity in burial traditions is too great for them not to be linked to the P312 groups who founded the bell beaker east culture. My feeling is therefore that P312 groups maybe controlled or were heavily interacting along the rivers immediately west of the Dnieper as well as culturally interacting with the groups on the middle Dnieper itself. So that IMO points towards the Dniester with a lesser chance of the Prut. If beaker does have a higher dose of GAC/TRB than Yamnaya then that fits a position on the the Dniester rather well.

alan
06-26-2018, 02:06 PM
You can see an apparently violent clash of the two different Beaker traditions at Sion in Switzerland and at Aosta in northern Italy with the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people at both sites around 2425 BC, the destruction of the stone stelae (all of them were destroyed at Sion), and their reuse to construct new burial cists, which were reoriented from Neolithic-type collective tombs to family and single burials.

I posted some of this stuff over in the Bell Beaker R1b-L21 thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10825-Bell-Beaker-R1b-L21&p=424296&viewfull=1#post424296) because of Harrison and Heyd's remark that the famous Amesbury Archer might be linked to the Kurgan Bell Beaker immigrants at Sion.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 192:



Ibid, page 170:



Ibid, page 187:



Ibid, page 192:



From page 172:



As I mentioned over on that other thread, the only y-dna results from Sion came from the stone cist known as Dolmen M XI. It was one of the first post-destruction horizon cists. There were three skeletons from Dolmen M XI successfully tested, two males and a female, all three with steppe dna. Here are the y-dna and mtDNA results for them:

I5755/BB_01_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: K2b1a

I5757/BB_18_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE Y-DNA: R1b-L151 mtDNA: H3af

I5759/BB_23_MXI: 2470-1985 BCE mtDNA: U2e1c1

yes it does seem that the Iberian beaker culture and the eastern P312 beaker culture closed in on the western Alps from opposite directions using the Rhine and Rhone c. 2500BC. Although I think they are not linked to P312, I still believe in a limited out of Iberia movement of Iberian beaker users c. 2500BC into the Rhone and quite probably Atlantic France too (although the latter tends to be messy jumbled up poorly dated material). But it seems the Iberian beaker move up the Rhone was violently checked by the P312 group after only a generation or two judging by the P312 south French guy that has been found (what was his date again?).

rms2
06-26-2018, 02:13 PM
Following on, you have to weight the beaker pots itself sensibly as an ethnic indicator. On its own it should not be weighted to heavily for this purpose. You need to look at the whole picture of burial details, technology, specific preferences in weapon types, indicators of use of horses etc and NOT weight pottery any higher than the other aspects . . .

You'll have to pardon all the Harrison and Heyd quotes, but I've been re-reading that paper lately, and it's fresh in my mind.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 203:



Our present knowledge shows that Portugal does not have the classical ‘Bell Beaker Package’ that was so well described by C. Burgess and S. Shennan (1976), but the region does have something that we can call the ‘proto-Package’, which displays the essential early elements that belong to it, such as the Maritime Beaker, copper knives and awls, advanced archery skills and reliance on the bow and arrow, a knowledge of decorated textiles (discussed in Harrison 1977, 45–47), and perhaps also V perforated buttons of the tortuga type. Missing specifically are the boars’ tusk pendants shaped like bows, the stone wrist-guard (always a rare item in Portugal), and the type of tanged dagger that becomes identified with Beaker grave groups later on (Brandherm/Ruiz-Gálvez in press).


Missing also were single graves under round tumuli, horse bones, corded beakers, P312, steppe dna, etc.

rms2
06-26-2018, 02:26 PM
. . . But it seems the Iberian beaker move up the Rhone was violently checked by the P312 group after only a generation or two judging by the P312 south French guy that has been found (what was his date again?).

There are a number of French BB results in Olalde et al. This one is from southern France, but I'm not sure he's the one you're thinking of.

I3875/Vil-Lauz-1316: 2134–1947 calBCE (3655±25 BP, PSUAMS-1834). Adolescent, genetically male. Y-DNA: R1b-L2 mtDNA H1e

etrusco
06-26-2018, 03:36 PM
@rms2

Heyd and Harrison work is quite interesting but .....to extrapolate from a few stones smashed in a remote alpine valley a continental clash of civilization is frankly quite ridiculous......I think in Sion we are in the presence of the so called "exception that confirms the rule" ( I do not know if in English has the same meaning as in Italian but I think you can get what I mean...). Relationship between farmers and R1b folks were overall peaceful both physically and culturally.

alan
06-26-2018, 04:37 PM
You'll have to pardon all the Harrison and Heyd quotes, but I've been re-reading that paper lately, and it's fresh in my mind.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 203:



Missing also were single graves under round tumuli, horse bones, corded beakers, P312, steppe dna, etc.

Also the hollow based arrowhead. Its the arrowhead that arose in popularity all over eastern Europe c. 2600BC or maybe a little before.

GASKA
06-26-2018, 04:58 PM
You'll have to pardon all the Harrison and Heyd quotes, but I've been re-reading that paper lately, and it's fresh in my mind.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 203:



Missing also were single graves under round tumuli, horse bones, corded beakers, P312, steppe dna, etc.

You Know that Iberia is Portugal and Spain right?- In Spain both wristguards and boar's tusk are documented since the neolithic, if you are interested in checking it, I can send you all the papers you want (but you have to translate it from spanish). Copper tanged daggers are documented for example in los Millares (3.000 BC). It's difficult for people who are not experts in the Western European chalcolithic to comment on things they don't Know. Compared with France, Italy or Spain, the oriental steppes are an archaelogical deserthttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/225689150_Swiss_Bell_Beaker_population_dynamics_ea stern_or_southern_influences

As you can see, the Swiss have proven years ago that the population of Swiss BBs is basically from southern Europe. I don't know other paper that has proven otherwise. You do well to look for arguments to end the "Iberian zombie", but you will not get it because you are not right.

By the way it's a bit tired, that every time you run out of arguments, you have to resort to the old "steppe topics"- Iberian refuge of the Ice Age, Gimbutas, Iberian zombies, neolithic collective burials, etc etc....We are waiting for you to tell us if you have found P312 in the steppes, because if you don't, I will have to think that all your theories of migrations are only the result of your imagination.

Meanwhile, this thread refers to the Oldest steppe BBs (Meaning P312 men with steppe ancestors), therefor,e and given than in Iberia, Olalde has identified 5 samples that are P312 BBs, and that all of them have ancestors in the steppes (15% autosomal steppe Dna), it will Never be out of place to TALK ABOUT IBERIA IN THIS DISCUSSION.

To be exact you should say that what you don't want is to argue with people who think differently to you, and that is totally anti-scientific.

Was Saxony-Anhalt the amin expansion are for L11/P312? In my opinion the main expansion area has to be close to its origin, that is to say that I think that P312 has a Franco Cantabrian origin. The opposite would be a miracle. I know you have already discused this paper but I send it back (may be there are people interesting in reading it). I hope that the Ukrainian, British, Hungarian or German geneticists can analyze P312 as thoroughly as the spaniards as done.

http://www.genlinginterface.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/R1b-Update.pdf

When you talk about zombies, you also talk about many professional geneticits who don't agreed with the Dogma you have developed. Surely they know P312 much better than you.

https://research.ku.dk/search/?pure=en/publications/new-clues-to-the-evolutionary-history-of-the-main-european-paternal-lineage-m269(b5ac9d8f-b14b-4766-a4bd-05563bfccd03)/export.html

alan
06-26-2018, 05:14 PM
You'll have to pardon all the Harrison and Heyd quotes, but I've been re-reading that paper lately, and it's fresh in my mind.

Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 203:



Missing also were single graves under round tumuli, horse bones, corded beakers, P312, steppe dna, etc.

Also the hollow based arrowhead. Its the arrowhead that arose in popularity all over eastern Europe c. 2600BC or maybe a little before.

rms2
06-26-2018, 09:47 PM
From Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 187:



There are no wrist-guards found with early Beaker graves in northern Italy, southern France, or the early maritime beaker contexts in Iberia (see chapter 9.3). Only in the Bell Beaker East Group do they occur in a few early graves (Heyd 2001). Otherwise, we see many of them from the middle Bell Beaker period onwards, spreading widely in the EBA to Italy, France and Spain.


Ibid, page 203:



However, in southeast Spain at the macro-village of Los Millares, the Beaker phase is late, and short lived (2450–2250 BC), being replaced by the vigorous Early Bronze culture of El Argar, and its emphatic preference for single burials inside the rooms of its fortified settlements (Harrison/Mederos Martín 2001; R. Chapman 2003).


Olalde et al, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, page 5:



In Iberia, the majority of Beaker-complex-associated individuals lacked steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, steppe-related ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker-complex associated individuals. However, the presence of steppe-related ancestry in some Iberian individuals demonstrates that gene flow into Iberia was not uncommon during this period.

Ibid, pages 3-4:



For Beaker complex-associated individuals from Iberia, the best fit was obtained when Middle Neolithic and Copper Age populations from the same region were used as the source for their Neolithic-related ancestry; we could exclude central and northern European populations as sources of this ancestry (P < 0.0063) (Fig. 2c). Conversely, the Neolithic related ancestry in Beaker-complex-associated individuals outside of Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (for example, Poland_LN, P = 0.18 and Sweden_MN, P = 0.25), and we could significantly exclude Iberian sources (P < 0.0104) (Fig. 2c). These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.


Ibid, pages 1-2:



The Y-chromosome composition of Beaker-complex-associated males was dominated by R1b-M269 (Supplementary Table 4), which is a lineage associated with the arrival of steppe migrants in central Europe after 3000 bc2,3. Outside Iberia, this lineage was present in 84 out of 90 analysed males. For individuals for whom we determined the R1b-M269 subtype (n = 60), we found that all but two had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today14. By contrast, Beaker-complex-associated individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried a higher proportion of Y haplogroups known to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period2,4,15,16, such as I (n = 5) and G2 (n = 1); R1b-M269 was found in four individuals with a genome-wide signal of steppe-related ancestry, and of these, the two with higher coverage could be classified as R1b-S116/P312. The widespread presence of the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism in ancient individuals from central and western Europe suggests that people associated with the Beaker complex may have had an important role in the dissemination of this lineage throughout most of its present-day distribution.


Re that old paper, New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M269: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia: it was based on modern dna and even then its conclusions were faulty. It came out in 2016 but it did an excellent job of time traveling back to 2005.

rms2
06-26-2018, 10:00 PM
@rms2

Heyd and Harrison work is quite interesting but .....to extrapolate from a few stones smashed in a remote alpine valley a continental clash of civilization is frankly quite ridiculous......I think in Sion we are in the presence of the so called "exception that confirms the rule" ( I do not know if in English has the same meaning as in Italian but I think you can get what I mean...). Relationship between farmers and R1b folks were overall peaceful both physically and culturally.

Keep telling yourself that.

From Olalde et al, page 4:



In either case, our results imply a minimum of 90 ± 2% local population turnover by the Middle Bronze Age (approximately 1500–1000 bc), with no significant decrease observed in 5 samples from the Late Bronze Age. Although the exact turnover rate and its geographic pattern await refinement with more ancient samples, our results imply that for individuals from Britain during and after the Beaker period, a very high fraction of their DNA derives from ancestors who lived in continental Europe before 2450 bc. An independent line of evidence for population turnover comes from uniparental markers. Whereas Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b was completely absent in Neolithic individuals (n = 33), it represents more than 90% of the Y chromosomes in individuals from Copper and Bronze Age Britain (n = 52) (Fig. 3).

At Sion every stela was knocked over, broken, moved, and used as building material for new cists for a new set of people from the East. At Aosta in northern Italy, the same thing occurred at around the same time, but not quite as extensively as at Sion.

Remember also what Reich said in his book about a 30% population replacement in Iberia, with a 90% steppe-related y-dna replacement.

etrusco
06-26-2018, 10:41 PM
Keep telling yourself that.

From Olalde et al, page 4:



At Sion every stela was knocked over, broken, moved, and used as building material for new cists for a new set of people from the East. At Aosta in northern Italy, the same thing occurred at around the same time, but not quite as extensively as at Sion.

Remember also what Reich said in his book about a 30% population replacement in Iberia, with a 90% steppe-related y-dna replacement.

Heyde and Harrison gave the example of Sion and Aosta....maybe you do not have a clear picture of that region.....Sion and Aosta are close locations. They are on opposite side of the pennine mountains so the war episode is only one. likely a steppic clan and a farmers one had a conflict and the fight involved both side of the mountain range likely inhabited by the same farmer clan ( the valley of Sion and Aosta share a common history till modern times so likely is only none episode.....so not really big news......so to debunk the overall peaceful integration between farms and steppe clans you need more examples. It may turn out you will be right but as for now Sion and Aosta are not frankly enough.
As I said replacement can mean a lot of things....given the absence of wild conflict an explanation could ( I say could it is just an hypothesis) be higher fertility rates. But to back my claim sure I need to do some research to find out how much fertility gap can trigger a replacement of that size and in that time lapse. The replacement according to your post was accomplished by the middle bronze age...well honestly from 2500/2400 BC is really pretty much time indeed. At least 500 full years. At least.
We'll see what happens!

rms2
06-26-2018, 10:49 PM
I think you're just refusing to see the evidence.

A 90% +/- 2 population replacement in Britain probably didn't happen altogether peacefully.

And how did 90% of the y-dna lineages in Iberia get replaced? Just how peaceful do you think that could have been?

Somehow R1b-P312 became the most frequent y-dna haplogroup in western Europe, knocking G2a and I2a from the top spots. Nowadays everyone wants to argue that Neolithic farmers weren't the peace-loving hippies that Gimbutas said they were. If that's the case, what happened? They weren't peace-loving hippies, but they went down without a fight?

GASKA
06-27-2018, 08:50 AM
From Harrison and Heyd, The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland), page 187:



Ibid, page 203:



Olalde et al, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, page 5:



Ibid, pages 3-4:



Ibid, pages 1-2:



Re that old paper, New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M269: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia: it was based on modern dna and even then its conclusions were faulty. It came out in 2016 but it did an excellent job of time traveling back to 2005.

24276

I don't Know why you insit on denying the evidence. R. Rocca sent that example of Pre-BB wristguard in Iberia a few days ago, may be you were not attentive to the post. Harrison and Heyd talked about the Iberian peninsula for references, it's clear that they are not very expert in the Iberian chalcolithic.

The origin of a haplogroup can only be established by ancient dna (P312-origin in Saxony-Anhalt) or studying its variability, frequency and antiquity (subclades) in a certain territory (P312-Franco-Cantabrian origin). No one is travelling back 2.005 with this paper- "New clues to the evolutinary history of the main European paternal lineage M269, dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia"

This paper is signed by prestigious professors from the Universities of Basque Country, Brest, Porto, Dublin, Copenhagen, Alicante and Zaragoza, and the conclusion is that P312 has a Franco-Cantabrian origin. As you can see the theory is not mine, but rather of Professional geneticits who Know a lot more about genetics than you and me. The paper was published, so everyone can draw their conclusions and criticize it. This is the scientific debate.

I suppose that you and your followers will not agree with their conclusions, and I suppose, that will be included in that "Iberian zombie" that pursues you, but as you will understand, for us, this paper has much more credibility, than your opinions about it.

1- So obviously, you can say what you want, but you should always be respectful, or do you also think that these researchers are Iberian zombies like me ?
2.-Please, don't try to confuse people, because the theory of "Iberian Ice Age refuge " (Sykes), has nothing to do with the theory of the Franco-cantabrian Origin of S116-P312.
3.- We can improve that paper if instead of analyzing 1.500 P312, the sample was expanded to 15.000, but the result will be the same, that is, the region of Europe with the highest variabilty of P312 is the Franco-Cantabrian region.


Thanks to Olalde's paper, we Spaniards can participate in this debate about the Oldest steppe Bell Beakers. I know many people were surprised, angry and disappointed when those 5 samples of Iberian steppe BBs were discovered, however we were waiting for it, and we know that older samples will appear, because only the least interesting sites have been analyzed.

GASKA
06-27-2018, 09:00 AM
By the way, the famous Yamnaya "package" and individual burials, can also be found in Remedello Culture (not only in Spain), that as you Know, is late Neolithic-chalcolitic

ffoucart
06-27-2018, 09:26 AM
The origin of a haplogroup can only be established by ancient dna (P312-origin in Saxony-Anhalt) or studying its variability, frequency and antiquity (subclades) in a certain territory (P312-Franco-Cantabrian origin). No one is travelling back 2.005 with this paper- "New clues to the evolutinary history of the main European paternal lineage M269, dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia"

This paper is signed by prestigious professors from the Universities of Basque Country, Brest, Porto, Dublin, Copenhagen, Alicante and Zaragoza, and the conclusion is that P312 has a Franco-Cantabrian origin. As you can see the theory is not mine, but rather of Professional geneticits who Know a lot more about genetics than you and me. The paper was published, so everyone can draw their conclusions and criticize it. This is the scientific debate.


Completely ridiculous! A Franco-cantabrian origin is impossible. As simple as that.

Moreover, this paper is obsolete: it is from 17 june 2015, just after the Haak et al. paper (februar 2015), and was obsolete from the start. Nobody can take it seriously.

You just have to read the Haak et al paper to understand why. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

Nive1526
06-27-2018, 09:31 AM
Nowadays everyone wants to argue that Neolithic farmers weren't the peace-loving hippies that Gimbutas said they were. If that's the case, what happened? They weren't peace-loving hippies, but they went down without a fight?

Neolithic farmers were very violent amongst themselves and there's quite a number of mass graves being found in association with LBK settlements before steppe invasion. Peace-loving hippies don't do this.
http://www.archaeo3d.com/en/lide-z-dlouhych-domu/valecnici/nasili-na-sidlistich-jako-dukaz-valecneho-konfliktu/

GASKA
06-27-2018, 10:59 AM
Neolithic farmers were very violent amongst themselves and there's quite a number of mass graves being found in association with LBK settlements before steppe invasion. Peace-loving hippies don't do this.
http://www.archaeo3d.com/en/lide-z-dlouhych-domu/valecnici/nasili-na-sidlistich-jako-dukaz-valecneho-konfliktu/

"Completely ridiculous"- I will never dare to qualify as ridiculous, the work of prestigious researchers who know much more about genetics than me. I suppose you are an expert in P312, and I hope that when yo come to Spain, you agree to personally discuss your opinion with them. Surely you can convince them (and me) with good arguments and data, that the origin of P312 is in the steppes. May be, this paper is the monster of the cave of Caerbannog that is protecting the "Iberian zombie" Or you were just kidding?

"A Franco-cantabrian origin is impossible"- In science there is nothing impossible until is proven otherwise, and as far as I know, you have not yet proved any theory.

"this paper is obsolete" "Nobody can take it seriously"- In Spain, most people think that it is totally current, I suppose you understand that we prefer to rely on our investigators than on you. If you have published a study that says otherwise please share ot with us.

Do you Know any other paper that has studied the variability of P312 in Europe? Is there one in France, French Flanders or Ukraine? I would like to know it, to discuss it with you.

Unlike you, I consider the Haak's paper to be very respectable, although I think it doen'st serve our current purpose.

For us, the near origin of P312, serves to try to explain the extrange percentage of 15-20% of L21 in Guipuzcoa, the most isolated of the Basques provinces.

GASKA
06-27-2018, 11:01 AM
Neolithic farmers were very violent amongst themselves and there's quite a number of mass graves being found in association with LBK settlements before steppe invasion. Peace-loving hippies don't do this.
http://www.archaeo3d.com/en/lide-z-dlouhych-domu/valecnici/nasili-na-sidlistich-jako-dukaz-valecneho-konfliktu/

Sorry Nive 1526, I was trying to answer ffoucart.

dsm
06-27-2018, 11:07 AM
Sorry Nive 1526, I was trying to answer ffoucart.

You can edit your posts. When editing you can write the reason. Avoids lasting stuff ups.
D

GASKA
06-27-2018, 11:31 AM
You can edit your posts. When editing you can write the reason. Avoids lasting stuff ups.
D

Thank you, by the way, one of the reasons why we can change our mind is R1b-S1194, which I think is not being given timely atention. Do you know if there have been cases in Iberia?

rms2
06-27-2018, 01:09 PM
Neolithic farmers were very violent amongst themselves and there's quite a number of mass graves being found in association with LBK settlements before steppe invasion. Peace-loving hippies don't do this.
http://www.archaeo3d.com/en/lide-z-dlouhych-domu/valecnici/nasili-na-sidlistich-jako-dukaz-valecneho-konfliktu/

If you understood my post (evidently not), you would see that I was not claiming Neolithic farmers were peace-loving hippies. I was asking etrusco how he thinks their y-dna haplogroups went from most frequent in Europe to far less frequent than R1b-P312. I was using the current criticism of Gimbutas (which is based largely on ignorance of what she actually wrote) to make a point.

ffoucart
06-27-2018, 01:33 PM
"Completely ridiculous"- I will never dare to qualify as ridiculous, the work of prestigious researchers who know much more about genetics than me. I suppose you are an expert in P312, and I hope that when yo come to Spain, you agree to personally discuss your opinion with them. Surely you can convince them (and me) with good arguments and data, that the origin of P312 is in the steppes. May be, this paper is the monster of the cave of Caerbannog that is protecting the "Iberian zombie" Or you were just kidding?

"A Franco-cantabrian origin is impossible"- In science there is nothing impossible until is proven otherwise, and as far as I know, you have not yet proved any theory.

"this paper is obsolete" "Nobody can take it seriously"- In Spain, most people think that it is totally current, I suppose you understand that we prefer to rely on our investigators than on you. If you have published a study that says otherwise please share ot with us.

Do you Know any other paper that has studied the variability of P312 in Europe? Is there one in France, French Flanders or Ukraine? I would like to know it, to discuss it with you.

Unlike you, I consider the Haak's paper to be very respectable, although I think it doen'st serve our current purpose.

For us, the near origin of P312, serves to try to explain the extrange percentage of 15-20% of L21 in Guipuzcoa, the most isolated of the Basques provinces.

1- I will answer to you the same thing I said to various people countless of times (I can't count anymore): modern distribution is saying nothing of ancient distribution neither it is saying anything about an Y-haplogroup origin. Simple as that. Since we have aDNA, if you want to prove that a given Y-haplogroup were present somewhere in the past, use the data we have. About R1b, the answer is clear: except R1b V88, there is no R1b modern subclade found in Western Europe. If you want closely related subclades to P312, go East. You'll find them in NE and E Europe, and in Central Asia.
2- L-21 has been found in ancient samples, always in samples from Central European BBs, with Steppe autosomal admixture. This subclade origin was very likely in Central Europe, became a major subclade in the Rhine BBs groups and were diffused with them, firstly along the Rhine, and secondly on the North Sea shores with a huge founder effect in the British Isles. And it pushed probably to the Atlantic shores.
3- Yes, there is a paper about Y-haplogroups in Flanders. But this is about modern distribution, so without real interest in regards of Bronze Age distribution. And it doesn't go below P312 (as you probably already know).

Now if you like papers on modern distribution:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

"The age of this haplogroup appears clear: with independent samples (our samples vs. the 1000 genome project dataset) and independent methods (variation in 15 STRs vs. whole Y-chromosome sequences), the age of R1b-DF27 is firmly grounded around 4000–4500 ya, which coincides with the population upheaval in W. Europe at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age2, 9. Before this period, R1b-M269 was rare in the ancient DNA record, and during it the current frequencies were rapidly reached 2, 9, 10"

"While when R1b-DF27 appeared seems clear, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint. If we extrapolated directly from haplogroup frequencies, then R1b-DF27 would have originated in the Basque Country; however, for R1b-DF27 and most of its subhaplogroups, internal diversity measures and age estimates are lower in Basques than in any other population. Then, the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could be better explained by drift rather than by a local origin (except for the case of M153; see below), which could also have decreased the internal diversity of R1b-DF27 among Basques. An origin of R1b-DF27 outside the Iberian Peninsula could also be contemplated, and could mirror the external origin of R1b-M269, even if it reaches there its highest frequencies. However, the search for an external origin would be limited to France and Great Britain; R1b-DF27 seems to be rare or absent elsewhere"

2.Haak, W. et al. Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe. Nature 522, 207–211 (2015).
9.Allentoft, M. E. et al. Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia. Nature 522, 167–172 (2015).
10. Fu, Q. et al. The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. Nature 534, 200–5 (2016).

I'm rather doubfull of their conclusion (same problem as above). But an origin in France or Spain is not impossible for DF27. Not very likely to me.

Funny how they use the Haak et al.... papers but don't express clearly the Eastern origin of M269 derived subclades.

rms2
06-27-2018, 01:46 PM
. . .

I don't Know why you insit on denying the evidence. R. Rocca sent that example of Pre-BB wristguard in Iberia a few days ago, may be you were not attentive to the post. Harrison and Heyd talked about the Iberian peninsula for references, it's clear that they are not very expert in the Iberian chalcolithic.

Harrison and Heyd are among the world's foremost experts on Bell Beaker. They are the ones who wrote the following (which I have quoted a couple of times already), from page 187 of The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland):



There are no wrist-guards found with early Beaker graves in northern Italy, southern France, or the early maritime beaker contexts in Iberia (see chapter 9.3). Only in the Bell Beaker East Group do they occur in a few early graves (Heyd 2001). Otherwise, we see many of them from the middle Bell Beaker period onwards, spreading widely in the EBA to Italy, France and Spain.

Anyone can see that Harrison and Heyd were saying that the earliest maritime beaker contexts in Iberia lack the stone wrist guards, which are found earliest in the Bell Beaker East Group, i.e., in Kurgan Bell Beaker.



The origin of a haplogroup can only be established by ancient dna (P312-origin in Saxony-Anhalt) or studying its variability, frequency and antiquity (subclades) in a certain territory (P312-Franco-Cantabrian origin). No one is travelling back 2.005 with this paper- "New clues to the evolutinary history of the main European paternal lineage M269, dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia"

This paper is signed by prestigious professors from the Universities of Basque Country, Brest, Porto, Dublin, Copenhagen, Alicante and Zaragoza, and the conclusion is that P312 has a Franco-Cantabrian origin. As you can see the theory is not mine, but rather of Professional geneticits who Know a lot more about genetics than you and me. The paper was published, so everyone can draw their conclusions and criticize it. This is the scientific debate.

I suppose that you and your followers will not agree with their conclusions, and I suppose, that will be included in that "Iberian zombie" that pursues you, but as you will understand, for us, this paper has much more credibility, than your opinions about it.

That paper has zero credibility. As ffoucart said, it was already obsolete when it was published. You make yourself look silly by advocating for it. I doubt its authors would still defend its conclusions today. It has been rendered useless by subsequent ancient dna findings. Those findings include the conspicuous absence of R1b-M269 in Iberia before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the obvious connection there and elsewhere of R1b-M269 and steppe dna.



1- So obviously, you can say what you want, but you should always be respectful, or do you also think that these researchers are Iberian zombies like me ?

You misunderstood me. I did not call you an Iberian zombie. For me, the Iberian zombie is the continued insistence that R1b-P312 originated in Iberia. It's a zombie because it is already a dead idea, but its advocates, apparently from an excess of ethnic and national pride, keep it animated via anachronistic arguments that resemble shamanistic voodoo incantations.

First it was the FC LGM Refuge. When that proved unsustainable, the Iberianists turned to P312 and the Spanish Model for the origin of Bell Beaker. At one point those were somewhat reasonable points of view. Ancient dna research finally killed both the Spanish Model and the notion that P312 originated in Iberia, but a few holdouts are still squatting around the voodoo bonfire, chanting and sending the zombie shambling out into the darkness.



2.-Please, don't try to confuse people, because the theory of "Iberian Ice Age refuge " (Sykes), has nothing to do with the theory of the Franco-cantabrian Origin of S116-P312.

What they have to do with one another is that those who held the first opinion with the greatest affection have now turned to advocating the second with as little good reason.



3.- We can improve that paper if instead of analyzing 1.500 P312, the sample was expanded to 15.000, but the result will be the same, that is, the region of Europe with the highest variabilty of P312 is the Franco-Cantabrian region.

Modern variance is not all that useful. I'll bet New York City has really high P312 variance, as well.

Ever notice that Europe is a peninsula and that Iberia is like the bag end of that peninsula? Things tend to collect at the end of a peninsula. When varied peoples collect at the end of a peninsula, that inflates modern variance.

Besides, Iberia is overwhelmingly DF27. It doesn't seem all that diverse in terms of y-dna to me.



Thanks to Olalde's paper, we Spaniards can participate in this debate about the Oldest steppe Bell Beakers. I know many people were surprised, angry and disappointed when those 5 samples of Iberian steppe BBs were discovered, however we were waiting for it, and we know that older samples will appear, because only the least interesting sites have been analyzed.

No R1b-P312 has been found in Iberian results before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker outside the Olalde et al paper either.

Remember also that the earliest Iberian BB people differed from the Kurgan Bell Beaker people anthropologically, as well. They were Mediterranean physical types who were short in stature, with long heads and gracile skeletons. Overwhelmingly, they buried their dead in collective, Neolithic tombs. So, they looked like Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers, and they buried their dead like Neolithic farmers. Guess what they were? Neolithic farmers.

Coon and other scholars have regularly remarked on this over the years.

Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe, p. 150:



Where Bell Beaker burials are found in central Europe, the skeletons are almost always of the same tall brachycephalic type which we have already studied in the eastern Mediterranean and Italy. In Spain, however, they are frequently of the Megalithic race.


The Neolithic farmer inhabitants of Britain were genetically like Neolithic Iberians. They too were Mediterranean types like the early Iberian BB people.

Henri Hubert mentions that in his History of the Celtic People, page 171:



The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type.

Those people aren't going to be R1b-P312. That's already been demonstrated.

GASKA
06-27-2018, 02:35 PM
1- I will answer to you the same thing I said to various people countless of times (I can't count anymore): modern distribution is saying nothing of ancient distribution neither it is saying anything about an Y-haplogroup origin. Simple as that. Since we have aDNA, if you want to prove that a given Y-haplogroup were present somewhere in the past, use the data we have. About R1b, the answer is clear: except R1b V88, there is no R1b modern subclade found in Western Europe. If you want closely related subclades to P312, go East. You'll find them in NE and E Europe, and in Central Asia.
2- L-21 has been found in ancient samples, always in samples from Central European BBs, with Steppe autosomal admixture. This subclade origin was very likely in Central Europe, became a major subclade in the Rhine BBs groups and were diffused with them, firstly along the Rhine, and secondly on the North Sea shores with a huge founder effect in the British Isles. And it pushed probably to the Atlantic shores.
3- Yes, there is a paper about Y-haplogroups in Flanders. But this is about modern distribution, so without real interest in regards of Bronze Age distribution. And it doesn't go below P312 (as you probably already know).

Now if you like papers on modern distribution:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

"The age of this haplogroup appears clear: with independent samples (our samples vs. the 1000 genome project dataset) and independent methods (variation in 15 STRs vs. whole Y-chromosome sequences), the age of R1b-DF27 is firmly grounded around 4000–4500 ya, which coincides with the population upheaval in W. Europe at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age2, 9. Before this period, R1b-M269 was rare in the ancient DNA record, and during it the current frequencies were rapidly reached 2, 9, 10"

"While when R1b-DF27 appeared seems clear, where it originated may be more difficult to pinpoint. If we extrapolated directly from haplogroup frequencies, then R1b-DF27 would have originated in the Basque Country; however, for R1b-DF27 and most of its subhaplogroups, internal diversity measures and age estimates are lower in Basques than in any other population. Then, the high frequencies of R1b-DF27 among Basques could be better explained by drift rather than by a local origin (except for the case of M153; see below), which could also have decreased the internal diversity of R1b-DF27 among Basques. An origin of R1b-DF27 outside the Iberian Peninsula could also be contemplated, and could mirror the external origin of R1b-M269, even if it reaches there its highest frequencies. However, the search for an external origin would be limited to France and Great Britain; R1b-DF27 seems to be rare or absent elsewhere"

2.Haak, W. et al. Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe. Nature 522, 207–211 (2015).
9.Allentoft, M. E. et al. Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia. Nature 522, 167–172 (2015).
10. Fu, Q. et al. The genetic history of Ice Age Europe. Nature 534, 200–5 (2016).

I'm rather doubfull of their conclusion (same problem as above). But an origin in France or Spain is not impossible for DF27. Not very likely to me.

Funny how they use the Haak et al.... papers but don't express clearly the Eastern origin of M269 derived subclades.

I also have to repeat what I said a lot of people. When we talk about modern distribution, we have to look at the antiquity of the subclades of the different haplogroups. One thing is the diversity of M153 among the basques, and another thing to find very old subclades of the haplogroup in a certain region.

We have U152 in la Magdalena (2.250 BC), Df27 in the culture of las Cogotas (2.000-1.500 BC) and L21 in Guipuzcoa (I don't know samples of ancient dna), but the isolation of the population and the antiquity of the subclades suggest an old arrivel of the haplogroup. All of them are children of P312, then it does not have to be very far.

There are L21, Df27 and U152 in Russia, Ukraine or the Caucasus and if so, which subclades have been found?

When Spanish researchers talk about the Franco-Cantabrian region, they obviusly talk about the Cantabrian coast of Spain and France (I don't know if the French call that coastal area, Atlantic ocean or Cantabrian sea like us, in any case Bay of Biscay), the Pyrenees and southern France, and as far as I know, southern France is not far from Alsace and the Rhine valley (Sierentz-P312). 3-4 days walking?

jdean
06-27-2018, 02:45 PM
There are L21, Df27 and U152 in Russia, Ukraine or the Caucasus and if so, which subclades have been found?

No info on subclades but U152 and U106 have both been found in the Urals

Also U106 turned up in the aDNA of one of the earliest Hungarians who presumably had just wondered in off the Steppes

MitchellSince1893
06-27-2018, 02:57 PM
There are...U152 in Russia...?
Yes...All three major branches U152>L2, U152>Z56, U152>Z36
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11599-U152-S28-in-Bashkirs-Revisted&p=270795&viewfull=1#post270795

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11599-U152-S28-in-Bashkirs-Revisted&p=358768&viewfull=1#post358768

GASKA
06-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Yes...All three major branches U152>L2, U152>Z56, U152>Z36
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11599-U152-S28-in-Bashkirs-Revisted&p=270795&viewfull=1#post270795

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11599-U152-S28-in-Bashkirs-Revisted&p=358768&viewfull=1#post358768

I believe that the region where these 3 subclades appear with greater antiquity is where the origin of P312 is, or at least the zone with the largest and oldest expansion. It's extrange to find U152 in Russia. Its seems that U152 in Spain is linked to the Celts, Vandals or Goths (despite its antiquity).

Webb
06-27-2018, 03:21 PM
I also have to repeat what I said a lot of people. When we talk about modern distribution, we have to look at the antiquity of the subclades of the different haplogroups. One thing is the diversity of M153 among the basques, and another thing to find very old subclades of the haplogroup in a certain region.

We have U152 in la Magdalena (2.250 BC), Df27 in the culture of las Cogotas (2.000-1.500 BC) and L21 in Guipuzcoa (I don't know samples of ancient dna), but the isolation of the population and the antiquity of the subclades suggest an old arrivel of the haplogroup. All of them are children of P312, then it does not have to be very far.

There are L21, Df27 and U152 in Russia, Ukraine or the Caucasus and if so, which subclades have been found?

When Spanish researchers talk about the Franco-Cantabrian region, they obviusly talk about the Cantabrian coast of Spain and France (I don't know if the French call that coastal area, Atlantic ocean or Cantabrian sea like us, in any case Bay of Biscay), the Pyrenees and southern France, and as far as I know, southern France is not far from Alsace and the Rhine valley (Sierentz-P312). 3-4 days walking?

Iain McDonald's Age Analysis for M153, "Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 3151.86 YBP (1203 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1849 BC to 606 BC". Which isn't really that old.

rms2
06-27-2018, 03:34 PM
. . .

We have U152 in la Magdalena (2.250 BC), Df27 in the culture of las Cogotas (2.000-1.500 BC) and L21 in Guipuzcoa (I don't know samples of ancient dna), but the isolation of the population and the antiquity of the subclades suggest an old arrivel of the haplogroup. All of them are children of P312, then it does not have to be very far . . .

Those are Early Bronze Age and thus relatively late, pretty obviously after the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, R1b-P312 and steppe dna.

Here are some additional Iberian BB results from Lipson et al (2017) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/03/06/114488) not in Olalde et al - Three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country of all places, found with Bell Beaker pottery, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b


As Christina Roth wrote in the abstract of her doctoral dissertation, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula (https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/frontdoor.php?source_opus=100000815&la=en):



Although a substantial number of Early Neolithic Iberian individuals share direct sequence hits to contemporary individuals of the Central European Linear pottery culture, the amount of hunter-gatherer mitochondrial heritage is considerably greater in all regions of the Iberian Peninsula than in Central Europe. No genetic connection between Iberian and Central European Bell Beakers or the Corded Ware culture could be found.


This is from pages 147-148 of her dissertation:



. . . Thus, while genetic influences from Portugal and Africa on the Iberian Bell Beaker hint at origins in or influences from those regions, concordant with certain archaeological models (see chapter 12.1.5), genetic links between Western and Central European Bell Beaker cannot be detected. Genetic evidence available so far can therefore dismiss an Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon with demic distribution into Central Europe – at least on mitochondrial level; one will have to await what Y-chromosomal or autosomal ancient DNA data will show. Anyway, one should not forget that one of these theories may very well be true for the distribution of the pottery itself, the incision style or any other archaeological assemblage via acculturation phenomena. However, as archaeological research of the last decades has tended to rather emphasize the differences in material culture between distinct Bell Beaker communities in Europe than to assume a more or less homogeneous Bell Beaker population across Europe, these findings are not too surprising (e.g. GARRIDO PENA 2005; STRAHM 2014).

Roth's dissertation was published in 2016, before the publication of the Olalde et al paper, and relied on mtDNA. However, it reached the same conclusions.

GASKA
06-27-2018, 03:45 PM
Iain McDonald's Age Analysis for M153, "Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 3151.86 YBP (1203 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1849 BC to 606 BC". Which isn't really that old.

Thats exactly what I was saying (may be I explained myself wrongly). M153 is relatively young, and it is also frequent in Alto Aragón (Pyrenees), it may be not tipically basque but Pyrenean

rms2
06-27-2018, 04:38 PM
Thats exactly what I was saying (may be I explained myself wrongly). M153 is relatively young, and it is also frequent in Alto Aragón (Pyrenees), it may be not tipically basque but Pyrenean

I don't think that does much for your case. Once DF27 arrived in Iberia with Kurgan Bell Beaker, naturally it would give rise to downstream subclades there that are themselves native to the Iberian peninsula.

We have something similar in the L21 world. Evidently the Kurgan Bell Beaker men arriving in Britain from the Continent around 2400 BC were already at least at the DF13 level (judging from most of the Olalde et al results), but the DF13 subclades are younger than that and no doubt many of them are native to Britain.

ffoucart
06-27-2018, 05:09 PM
We have U152 in la Magdalena (2.250 BC), Df27 in the culture of las Cogotas (2.000-1.500 BC) and L21 in Guipuzcoa (I don't know samples of ancient dna), but the isolation of the population and the antiquity of the subclades suggest an old arrivel of the haplogroup. All of them are children of P312, then it does not have to be very far.


You do realise that L21 is far older than 2000BC? And was already found around 2300BC in UK (Amesbury)? And that L238 is scandinavian? Not only P312 is older than previously thought, but its subclades can only have radiated from Central Europe.

Webb
06-27-2018, 05:36 PM
Thats exactly what I was saying (may be I explained myself wrongly). M153 is relatively young, and it is also frequent in Alto Aragón (Pyrenees), it may be not tipically basque but Pyrenean

But M153 is the fuel that started the fire of DF27 originating in Iberia. Many years ago M153 and SRY2627 were stand alone clades and were known to have high density in Iberia. This was before P312 and DF27 were even discovered. So these two clades were used as evidence of an Iberian origin for P312 once it was discovered that they both were also clades under P312. DF27 wasn't discovered until even later, by this time we had Z209 also called the North/South cluster, M153 and SRY2627. As the tree started to flesh out it was discovered that M153 was a downstream clade of Z209. When everyone was using variance as a tool, DF27 showed the greatest variance in Spain. But all this does is show that DF27 went through a major expansion genetically in Spain, at some point in it's evolution. As rms2 has explained, very similar to L21 in the British Isles. Not the place of origin most likely, but the place of greatest expansion. This whole Celts from the West, and Iberian Peninsula Refuge stuff were theories created using early data. Incomplete data. One can not look at these clades as an isolate, because they are not. These markers arose in people. People with relationships, so DF27 and U152 have a father, ZZ11. ZZ11 has two brothers, DF99 and ZZ37/ZZ38 and several other siblings, including L238 which is not found at all yet in anyone from Iberia. P312 has a brother, U106. This brings us to L151's brother, Z2103 who are/were found in aDNA in Yamnaya. I don't see how anyone could, logically, argue against a steppe origin for at least L151

GASKA
06-27-2018, 05:55 PM
Harrison and Heyd are among the world's foremost experts on Bell Beaker. They are the ones who wrote the following (which I have quoted a couple of times already), from page 187 of The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland):



Anyone can see that Harrison and Heyd were saying that the earliest maritime beaker contexts in Iberia lack the stone wrist guards, which are found earliest in the Bell Beaker East Group, i.e., in Kurgan Bell Beaker.



That paper has zero credibility. As ffoucart said, it was already obsolete when it was published. You make yourself look silly by advocating for it. I doubt its authors would still defend its conclusions today. It has been rendered useless by subsequent ancient dna findings. Those findings include the conspicuous absence of R1b-M269 in Iberia before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, and the obvious connection there and elsewhere of R1b-M269 and steppe dna.



You misunderstood me. I did not call you an Iberian zombie. For me, the Iberian zombie is the continued insistence that R1b-P312 originated in Iberia. It's a zombie because it is already a dead idea, but its advocates, apparently from an excess of ethnic and national pride, keep it animated via anachronistic arguments that resemble shamanistic voodoo incantations.

First it was the FC LGM Refuge. When that proved unsustainable, the Iberianists turned to P312 and the Spanish Model for the origin of Bell Beaker. At one point those were somewhat reasonable points of view. Ancient dna research finally killed both the Spanish Model and the notion that P312 originated in Iberia, but a few holdouts are still squatting around the voodoo bonfire, chanting and sending the zombie shambling out into the darkness.



What they have to do with one another is that those who held the first opinion with the greatest affection have now turned to advocating the second with as little good reason.



Modern variance is not all that useful. I'll bet New York City has really high P312 variance, as well.

Ever notice that Europe is a peninsula and that Iberia is like the bag end of that peninsula? Things tend to collect at the end of a peninsula. When varied peoples collect at the end of a peninsula, that inflates modern variance.

Besides, Iberia is overwhelmingly DF27. It doesn't seem all that diverse in terms of y-dna to me.



No R1b-P312 has been found in Iberian results before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker outside the Olalde et al paper either.

Remember also that the earliest Iberian BB people differed from the Kurgan Bell Beaker people anthropologically, as well. They were Mediterranean physical types who were short in stature, with long heads and gracile skeletons. Overwhelmingly, they buried their dead in collective, Neolithic tombs. So, they looked like Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers, and they buried their dead like Neolithic farmers. Guess what they were? Neolithic farmers.

Coon and other scholars have regularly remarked on this over the years.

Carleton S. Coon, The Races of Europe, p. 150:



The Neolithic farmer inhabitants of Britain were genetically like Neolithic Iberians. They too were Mediterranean types like the early Iberian BB people.

Henri Hubert mentions that in his History of the Celtic People, page 171:

hose people aren't going to be R1b-P312. That's already been demonstrated.

It's much more interesting to discuss with you, when you stop seeing zombies and start looking for arguments to defend your theories. We can start talking about anthropology
You have already used 5 times the argument of the anthropological difference between iberian BB beakers (mediterranean phisical types, long heads.....) and steppe BBs. I think you still have not realized that this totally contradicts your theory of an oriental origin of the central BBs.

1.- Brachycephaly is a characteristic that appears in the European Neolithic (Alps and Pyrenees). I have already sent a paper where it clearly says that the CW men in Poland are totally dolichocephalic, although higher than the mediterranean ones (the more high, more dolichocephaly, remember this). Given that the CWc men are R1a and that they come from the steppes, obviusly they must inherited this characteristic from their nomadic ancestor of the steppes. Then obviously the Brachycephalic BBs from Poland, Silesia and Moravia are clearly central european, and never eastern.

2.- In the Basque country and the Pyrenees we know Neolithic and Chalcolithic sites with brachycephalic skulls- Urbiola (2 dolichocephaly, 5 mesocephaly, 3 brachycephaly), Cuartango (mesocephaly), Zińeko-Gurutze (Aralar, navarra, brachycephaly), Aranzadi (brachycephaly). Believe me if i tell you that brachycephaly was always associated with the old "Alpine Race" never with the Nordic or Mediterranean races (both clearly dolichocephalic). The proximity between the Alps and the first steppe BBs, makes it necessary to exclude an eastern origin of brachicephally.

3.- It's a contradiction to say that the Iberian BBs and the steppe BBs are anthropologically different, when you are trying to convince us that the steppe BBs entered Iberia. If this was true (I doubt it), then I suppose the Iberians BBs will be descendants of the Central europeans BBs, will not they? or perhaps they lost brachicephally in France, allong the way? In any case, the Bbs will be different from all the neolithic dolichocephalic Europeans, and not only the Iberians.

4.- Quoting Coon as a reference is not a good idea, among other things he thought that "the races of Europe, Chapter II"- "The first Homo Sapiens, represented by several examples from Europe and Africa were- An ancestral white man with a long skull,short stature, and moderately large brain size, and a black group that developed parallel".

Now we can talk about archeology

1.- Harrison and Heyd are NOT the greatest world experts in BB culture, in Spain are there better ones (sorry for my chauvinism). They hardly know the Iberian chalcolithic, and their work about the transformation of Europe in the III millenium is from the year 2.007 (since then, dozens of chalcolithic sites have been discovered in Spain).
2.- Speaking of Sion- "on the other hand, standard elements from the rest of the BB package are rare, or missing altogether, arrowheads, and V-perforatd buttons are scarce, while cooper Knives, wristguards and ornaments of amber are ABSENT. "There are no wristguards found with early Beaker graves in Italy, southern France or the early maritime contexts in Iberia ??????????- I have already sent you 2 examples of pre-BB Iberian wristguards (3.000 BC), I don't understand how you can continue denying the evidence. I will repeat again, ALL THE BB PACKAGE EXISTED IN IBERIA BEFORE THE BB CERAMIC.
3.- Pag 203- "We know now, that the BBs develop VERY EARLY IN CENTRAL PORTUGAL, and by 2.700-2.600 bc, the maritime style is the dominant luxury ceramic in settlements and in collective tombs". They also wrong, Joao Cardoso (2.014) has shown a greater antiquity of the Portuguese sites (2.800-2.700 BC).
4.- Pag 203- It is useful to speak of a proto-package in which core elements are linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment, and to which at a later date, are added the wristguards, tanged daggers, Palmela points and spiral gold ornaments". You Know what is a Palmela Point? It's a copper spearhead that only exist in Iberia and southern France, that is No one introduced it to the Iberian peninsula (just and wristguards and tanged copper daggers, that were not introduced, because they were already used). It's so difficult to understand that simply with the passage of time objetcs were added to the prestigious burials that were being made?.

When I have a little time we will continue talking about genetics. Un saludo.

rms2
06-27-2018, 06:39 PM
It's much more interesting to discuss with you, when you stop seeing zombies and start looking for arguments to defend your theories.

Apparently the use of metaphor is not an arrow in your literary quiver.

Besides the zombie metaphor, which I think is extremely apt, since here you are once again attempting to revivify the desiccated corpse of the Iberian origin idea, I have posted argument after argument, including quotes from experts whose words absolutely annihilate your position. Evidently you are simply ignoring them.

So I wonder if there is really much point in arguing with you any further.



We can start can talking about anthropology
You have already used 5 times the argument of the anthropological difference between iberian BB beakers (mediterranean phisical types, long heads.....) and steppe BBs. I think you still have not realized that this totally contradicts your theory of an oriental origin of the central BBs.

1.- Brachycephaly is a characteristic that appears in the European Neolithic (Alps and Pyrenees). I have already sent a paper where it clearly says that the CW men in Poland are totally dolichocephalic, although higher than the mediterranean ones (the more high, more dolichocephaly, remember this). Given that the CWc men are R1a and that they come from the steppes, obviusly they must inherited this characteristic from their nomadic ancestor of the steppes. Then obviously the Brachycephalic BBs from Poland, Silesia and Moravia are clearly central european, and never eastern.

There were brachycephalic peoples on the steppe, and what I was pointing out was the obvious difference between the earliest Iberian BB people and the Kurgan Bell Beaker people (made even more obvious by subsequent ancient dna results) as noted by a number of scholars over the years.

Brachycephaly was not universal among Kurgan Bell Beaker people, but it is merely one fact among several that differentiate them from early Iberian BB people, who lacked steppe dna and R1b-M269.



2.- In the Basque country and the Pyrenees we know Neolithic and Chalcolithic sites with brachycephalic skulls- Urbiola (2 dolichocephaly, 5 mesocephaly, 3 brachycephaly), Cuartango (mesocephaly), Zińeko-Gurutze (Aralar, navarra, brachycephaly), Aranzadi (brachycephaly). Believe me if i tell you that brachycephaly was always associated with the old "Alpine Race" never with the Nordic or Mediterranean races (both clearly dolichocephalic). The proximity between the Alps and the first steppe BBs, makes it necessary to exclude an eastern origin of brachicephally.

You are placing too much emphasis on brachycephaly, and I was fully aware of its association with the so-called "Alpine Race". Again, you missed the point, which was that the earliest Iberian BB people were of the Mediterranean physical type and differed from the taller, more robust Kurgan Bell Beaker people, as noted by a number of scholars.



3.- It's a contradiction to say that the Iberian BBs and the steppe BBs are anthropologically different, when you are trying to convince us that the steppe BBs entered Iberia . . .

That is ridiculous.

1. Kurgan Bell Beaker people were physically different from early Iberian BB people. That is common knowledge.

2. Kurgan Bell Beaker people carried steppe dna, and the men overwhelmingly belonged to a steppe y-dna haplogroup, R1b-M269, especially R1b-P312.

You may be lumping all Iberian BBs together. The earliest Iberian BBs, the ones who predate the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker people in Iberia (along with R1b-M269 and steppe dna), are the ones who were of the Mediterranean physical type and who overwhelmingly buried their dead in collective Neolithic tombs.



4.- Quoting Coon as a reference is not a good idea, among other things he thought that "the races of Europe, Chapter II"- "The first Homo Sapiens, represented by several examples from Europe and Africa were- An ancestral white man with a long skull,short stature, and moderately large brain size, and a black group that developed parallel".

If I only quoted from people who were absolutely 100% right about everything, I would not be able to quote anyone.

Coon was an anthropologist. What he wrote about Iberian Bell Beaker was based on the analysis of their skeletons. It wasn't speculation about the hoary origins of the human race. The first was a matter of empirical observation. The second was a flight of informed fancy.



Now we can talk about archeology

1.- Harrison and Heyd are NOT the greatest world experts in BB culture, in Spain are there better ones (sorry for my chauvinism). They hardly know the Iberian chalcolithic, and their work about the transformation of Europe in the III millenium is from the year 2.007 (since then, dozens of chalcolithic sites have been discovered in Spain).

Your chauvinism is your defining characteristic, which I don't mind saying, since you are apologizing for it. I'll stick with Harrison and Heyd over your opinions, thanks.

Read what they wrote again.



2.- Speaking of Sion- "on the other hand, standard elements from the rest of the BB package are rare, or missing altogether, arrowheads, and V-perforatd buttons are scarce, while cooper Knives, wristguards and ornaments of amber are ABSENT. "There are no wristguards found with early Beaker graves in Italy, southern France or the early maritime contexts in Iberia ??????????- I have already sent you 2 examples of pre-BB Iberian wristguards (3.000 BC), I don't understand how you can continue denying the evidence. I will repeat again, ALL THE BB PACKAGE EXISTED IN IBERIA BEFORE THE BB CERAMIC.

No, it didn't.

Your bald assertion does not make it so.



3.- Pag 203- "We know now, that the BBs develop VERY EARLY IN CENTRAL PORTUGAL, and by 2.700-2.600 bc, the maritime style is the dominant luxury ceramic in settlements and in collective tombs". They also wrong, Joao Cardoso (2.014) has shown a greater antiquity of the Portuguese sites (2.800-2.700 BC).

If correct, he bumped the range back a century. It still did not possess the entire Beaker package, and it had no R1b-M269 or steppe dna.



4.- Pag 203- It is useful to speak of a proto-package in which core elements are linked together in Portugal from the earliest moment, and to which at a later date, are added the wristguards, tanged daggers, Palmela points and spiral gold ornaments". You Know what is a Palmela Point? It's a copper spearhead that only exist in Iberia and southern France, that is No one introduced it to the Iberian peninsula (just and wristguards and tanged copper daggers, that were not introduced, because they were already used). It's so difficult to understand that simply with the passage of time objetcs were added to the prestigious burials that were being made?.

I don't believe anyone said nothing was ever invented by people in Iberia. Palmela points look like an Iberian development, but they aren't present at the earliest Iberian BB sites, the ones that are used to claim primacy for Iberia in the BB story.



When I have a little time we will continue talking about genetics. Un saludo.

The evidence against your point of view is both ponderous and devastating.

rms2
06-27-2018, 07:04 PM
I mentioned this before, but no one seems to have noticed (well, maybe peternorth did).

The following are results from three Iberian BB skeletons from Lipson et al (2017) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/03/06/114488). They were not in the Olalde et al paper, so they are in addition to their findings. These three came from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in the Basque Country in Spain and were buried with BB beakers. None of them had steppe dna, and obviously none of them was R1b-M269. Notice the 14C-dated age of I2473, which puts him among the very earliest Iberian BBs.

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

Note that those results are consistent with what Olalde et al found in their samples from Iberia before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Harrison and Heyd also noted the physical difference between early western BB people and Kurgan Bell Beaker at Sion.

From page 192 of The Transformation of Europe in the Third Millennium BC: the example of ‘Le Petit-Chasseur I + III’ (Sion, Valais, Switzerland):



We suggest that this destruction horizon is the intellectually transforming moment at both Sion and Aosta. The stable isotope studies describe how we can recognize individual immigrants coming to live at Sion from areas a long way to the east (Chiaradia et al. 2003). This moment is also reflected in the fundamental change of dental and cranial morphology of the Sion skeletons at the transition of the Final Neolithic to the Bell Beaker period (Desideri/Eades 2004), or, as we think, at the transition of the early to the middle Bell Beaker phase. This human mobility is convincing evidence that agrees with the distribution of artifact types, and the personal nature of the ornaments and weapons.

rms2
06-27-2018, 07:08 PM
Please delete: duplicate post caused by repeated Anthrogenica glitches.

GASKA
06-27-2018, 07:27 PM
But M153 is the fuel that started the fire of DF27 originating in Iberia. Many years ago M153 and SRY2627 were stand alone clades and were known to have high density in Iberia. This was before P312 and DF27 were even discovered. So these two clades were used as evidence of an Iberian origin for P312 once it was discovered that they both were also clades under P312. DF27 wasn't discovered until even later, by this time we had Z209 also called the North/South cluster, M153 and SRY2627. As the tree started to flesh out it was discovered that M153 was a downstream clade of Z209. When everyone was using variance as a tool, DF27 showed the greatest variance in Spain. But all this does is show that DF27 went through a major expansion genetically in Spain, at some point in it's evolution. As rms2 has explained, very similar to L21 in the British Isles. Not the place of origin most likely, but the place of greatest expansion. This whole Celts from the West, and Iberian Peninsula Refuge stuff were theories created using early data. Incomplete data. One can not look at these clades as an isolate, because they are not. These markers arose in people. People with relationships, so DF27 and U152 have a father, ZZ11. ZZ11 has two brothers, DF99 and ZZ37/ZZ38 and several other siblings, including L238 which is not found at all yet in anyone from Iberia. P312 has a brother, U106. This brings us to L151's brother, Z2103 who are/were found in aDNA in Yamnaya. I don't see how anyone could, logically, argue against a steppe origin for at least L151

I agree with you that Df27 in Spain is a case similar to L21 in GB. A very old expansion that doesn't have to mean an Iberian origin (or maybe yes). We'll see, the truth is that I don't worry too much. Regarding the Basque country, I have already said that is the easiest thing to explain about this whole story. Pacts with the Romans, fierce resistence against Goths and moors, isolation in the mountains, and a very strict medieval and contemporary racial policy, that demanded blood cleansing to enter the army, the administration, and the Catholic church. The result 80% Df27 and 92% R1b. Obviusly this doesn't mean that Df27 originated in our land, because is vey common in the rest of Spain. I honestly do not care.

Do you Know reliable percentages in the rest of Europe?

razyn
06-27-2018, 09:38 PM
Do you Know reliable percentages in the rest of Europe?

Do you still not know that YDNA haplogroups' percentages in the current European population (in or out of Iberia) have no bearing on the topic of this thread? Which is about what rms2 calls Kurgan Bell Beaker, and R.Rocca calls Steppe Bell Beaker. Not about the 21st century AD and anybody's percentages, now, of whatever. That stuff tells us whose male line descendants have ended up where, but not where they began their journeys.

Limiting that special interest to Europe also is wildly distorting the modern picture, since European guys have been changing the YDNA stats for most other places for around 500 years, give or take.

R.Rocca
06-27-2018, 10:57 PM
"Completely ridiculous"- I will never dare to qualify as ridiculous, the work of prestigious researchers who know much more about genetics than me. I suppose you are an expert in P312, and I hope that when yo come to Spain, you agree to personally discuss your opinion with them. Surely you can convince them (and me) with good arguments and data, that the origin of P312 is in the steppes. May be, this paper is the monster of the cave of Caerbannog that is protecting the "Iberian zombie" Or you were just kidding?

"A Franco-cantabrian origin is impossible"- In science there is nothing impossible until is proven otherwise, and as far as I know, you have not yet proved any theory.

"this paper is obsolete" "Nobody can take it seriously"- In Spain, most people think that it is totally current, I suppose you understand that we prefer to rely on our investigators than on you. If you have published a study that says otherwise please share ot with us.

Do you Know any other paper that has studied the variability of P312 in Europe? Is there one in France, French Flanders or Ukraine? I would like to know it, to discuss it with you.

Unlike you, I consider the Haak's paper to be very respectable, although I think it doen'st serve our current purpose.

For us, the near origin of P312, serves to try to explain the extrange percentage of 15-20% of L21 in Guipuzcoa, the most isolated of the Basques provinces.

High frequencies in isolated areas can be deceiving. There is a location in Northern Italy that has something like 80% L23(xL51), but when one looks at the STR values of the samples, they are surely all related within the past 1000 years. Same thing with the 70%+ of U152 in Bashkirs... all the same exact STR signature pointing to a clear founder effect.

Besides, Czech Bell Beakers R1b samples that could be fully resolved were 100% U152+L2+. Modern day frequency of U152 (the parent of L2) in the Czech Republic is 2% of the total male population. Three Remedello samples were all I2a-M26 and in modern day continental Italians I2a-M26 is 3 of 800 men. That should tell us all we need to know about how much we should trust modern day frequency to determine origin.

dsm
06-27-2018, 11:07 PM
Thank you, by the way, one of the reasons why we can change our mind is R1b-S1194, which I think is not being given timely atention. Do you know if there have been cases in Iberia?

We have had a few people IIRC in Argentina who believed they were S1194 but, it could mean German migrant married over time blending with Spanish families - I believe there was a significant migration of Pomeranian (from what was German/Prussian Sth Baltic) to Argentina way in the past but am not up-to-date on this.

N. Myres et al published a paper in 2010/2011 that (as L11*) we were showing in three 'hot-spots' 1) Sth Baltic, 2) England & 3) Sth Alps (alongside a hot-spot of U106).

I tend not to regard Iberia as a place to look for S1194.

Cheers D

R.Rocca
06-27-2018, 11:41 PM
We have had a few people IIRC in Argentina who believed they were S1194 but, it could mean German migrant married over time blending with Spanish families - I believe there was a significant migration of Pomeranian (from what was German/Prussian Sth Baltic) to Argentina way in the past but am not up-to-date on this.

N. Myres et al published a paper in 2010/2011 that (as L11*) we were showing in three 'hot-spots' 1) Sth Baltic, 2) England & 3) Sth Alps (alongside a hot-spot of U106).

I tend not to regard Iberia as a place to look for S1194.

Cheers D

It would be pretty easy to prove as immigrants to Argentina would have kept their surnames. Case in point, the parents of the current Argentine president (Macri) and the Pope (Bergoglio) were born in Italy.

Bollox79
06-28-2018, 07:32 AM
No info on subclades but U152 and U106 have both been found in the Urals

Also U106 turned up in the aDNA of one of the earliest Hungarians who presumably had just wondered in off the Steppes

Jdean - which samples from the Urals and earliest Hungarians are U106+? I am keeping a list of aDNA for U106 and like to add anything I might have missed? Was the U106 Hungarian in the early Hungarian conquerors paper?

For the record - U106 would appear to have come from the East - and from the North early on. We have old RISE 98 from Southern Sweden aka Late Nordic neolithic/Battle Axe culture and Mr. Oostwoud, West Frisia who is U106 and Z381 and in the transition between early and middle Bronze age? In my own group DF98 (the House of Wettin is in that group) we have the earliest sample of DF98 from an wealthy early Unetice burial at Jinonice near Prague in the Czech Rep. He was additionally S1911 and S1894/S1900 under DF98. I think from now on unless it is in an early or middle Bronze Age context and burial (U106 might have a slightly different story that early on, but apparently got caught up with the Germanic tribes early on also - perhaps after the Middle Bronze Age and Unetice?) - many samples in any Germanic migration paper will probably be U106+ along with haplogroup I and R1a. R1a was more common in the early Icelanders paper than U106. U106+ and haplogroup I were the almost all the male samples of Northern European autosomal DNA from the Longobard (subgroups Z18 and L48 - keeping in mind the Chieftain of the chamber grave at Poprad, Slovakia circa 400 AD was also L48) and Baiuvarii (subgroups Z305 and DF96) papers - and I think that trend will continue especially along the Rhine and in Northern Germany. We have already found DF96 at a "Baiuvarii" 1st phase 480-510 AD burial at Altheim near Munich - and DF96 is the brother group to DF98. I bet DF98 will be more common in the North - but then I'm reading a book on the similarities of the early Baiuvarii and Thuringi - both having archaeological links to Elbe Germans and if you consider DF96 is already found at Altheim (and another Z305 which is above DF96 - he was at Alternerding also near Munich) and DF98 is the Wettin's SNP - aka the Dukes of Saxony/Thuringia... I think we are looking at a group who were successful at spreading during the Migration period - we just need many more samples to prove it ;-). If anything - early U106+ came from further East and probably somewhere near or in the Baltic? That's my best guess on what I know at the moment!

Cheers!

Edit: add to that two of the headless Gladiators of York - 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 - they were U106+ and DF96+ and DF98+ respectively!

GASKA
06-28-2018, 09:09 AM
High frequencies in isolated areas can be deceiving. There is a location in Northern Italy that has something like 80% L23(xL51), but when one looks at the STR values of the samples, they are surely all related within the past 1000 years. Same thing with the 70%+ of U152 in Bashkirs... all the same exact STR signature pointing to a clear founder effect.

Besides, Czech Bell Beakers R1b samples that could be fully resolved were 100% U152+L2+. Modern day frequency of U152 (the parent of L2) in the Czech Republic is 2% of the total male population. Three Remedello samples were all I2a-M26 and in modern day continental Italians I2a-M26 is 3 of 800 men. That should tell us all we need to know about how much we should trust modern day frequency to determine origin.

I agree that the actual frequency of a haplogroup can be misleading to find out its origin, in fact, I have set the example of what I believe happened in the Basque country.

But, the diversity of Y-STR haplotypes, can be an indicator of the origin of a haplogroup. Balaresque et al, based in the higher diversity of Y-STR haplotypes in Eastern European M269 individuals, than in western european ones concludes that there is a single origin for M269 in Eastern Europe. Myres et al, analysed M269 and the sublineages (M412-L11-U106-P312-U152 and L21), the obtained coalescence times and frequency distribution patterns led them to conclude that the current distribution of M269 sublineages is owing to allele surfing at the periphery of the westwards expansion of M269- (origin in Eastern Europe).

The study of Spanish researchers offers the deepest analysis of haplogroup S116-P312 made to date in Europe (1.560 males from Iberian peninsula, Brest, Ireland and Denmark, were studied). Y-SNPs M269-L11-U106-P312-U152-L21-Df27-Df19 and L238 were analyzed.

Myres et al proposed the Upper Danube basin and Paris area as the geographic sources of P312. The patterns of frequencies obtained in the Iberian peninsula also suggest that P312 emerged on the crest of the wave of migration but somewhere closer to the Franco-Cantabrian region.

1.- Origin of M269 in Eastern Europe 2.- Origin of L11 on the wave of the westward advance and colonization of Europe by L11 (as evidenced the high frequency of L11* from the Baltic to the southern coast of Portugal). 3.- Origin of U106 from L11 individuals who inhabited the southern coast of the North sea.
4.-Origin of P312 from L11 individuals the eastern Cantabrian coast and later expansion of Df27, L21 and U152 by Western and central Europe.

I suppose you have already debated this paper many times and I don't intend to start the debate again, but you have to understand that as long as we don't know another similar study in Europe, this is the one we will use as a reference (even existing points where I don't agree). I don't know what will be the diversity of P312 (Y-STR) and the percentage of P312* in other European countries. I would like researchers from other countries to do a similar study to compare results.

Un saludo, y no te olvides de Messi, también es descendiente de italianos.

etrusco
06-28-2018, 09:22 AM
I think it is necessary to post again some of the papers that were already shown on this thread just to give a more comprehensive view of the subject.
I think that steppe and iberian BB can be "reconciled" with the help of the research of one of the most talented archeologian of our time ( which is overall more of a "steppeist" than a nativist and he has no bias whatsoever): Christian Jeunesse. The first paper talks about a possible elite influence from the east ( Kemi-Oba and Maykop) to explain the precocity of the single grave revolution ( term is just to give an idea)...

https://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_für_Archäologie_Eurasiens_14_2014 _p._171-184

But let me say this: the english translation of the title is not quite correct so I post also the original one ( Jeunesse is french)....

https://www.academia.edu/21809440/L_Italie_et_l_émergence_de_l_idéologie_du_guerrier _dans_la_seconde_moitié_du_4čme_millénaire_av._J.-C

Together with the manifestation of the new warrior ideology in the western mediterranean we have also the presence of the menhir statues....paper is in french ( do not know if our french friends can provide a version in english)

https://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_Méditerranée_occidentale

That these statues can be the smoking gun for an early IEzation of the regions involved read this paper ( this is not by jeunesse but perfectly fit the formers papers):

https://www.academia.edu/7174548/Reflections_of_a_Trifunctional_Religious_Ideology_ among_Indo-European_Population_Groups_of_the_3rd_and_2nd_Mill ennia_BC

Last ( but not least and perhaps the most important of all...please everyone must read it carefully ) a paper from jeunesse that revisits former theories and give a more realistic picture of neolithic europe:

https://www.academia.edu/36876527/JEUNESSE_C._2017_From_Neolithic_kings_to_the_Staff ordshire_hoard._Hoards_and_aristocratic_graves_in_ the_European_Neolithic_the_birth_of_a_Barbarian_Eu rope:

Quote:

I have already stressed that there was no objective reason to maintain the tradition dating the birth of the ‘warrior’ to the final Neolithic (Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures), and that the funerary practices of the Corded Ware culture,for instance, could be regarded as either prefiguring the practices of the Bronze Age,or, with equally convincing arguments, as renewing the typical configuration of the Carpathian basin and adjacent southern and central Polish cultures of the second half of fifth millennium.

Remember when I said that flexed burial with its E/W-/N/S orientation was an old europe stuff....with delight I now know that Jeunesse agrees with me......

We'll see what happens! regards

I think we need genetic tests from Kemi-Oba and Marjupol region as soon as possible....

etrusco
06-28-2018, 09:49 AM
Also from Jeunesse:


https://www.academia.edu/34933932/Pratiques_funéraires_campaniformes_en_Europe_Faut-il_remettre_en_cause_la_dichotomie_Nord-Sud_La_question_de_la_réutilisation_des_sépultures _monumentales_dans_lEurope_du_3e_millénaire

anglesqueville
06-28-2018, 10:02 AM
Etrusco: about your #1194: great post. Afaik Jeunesse's text about the anthropomorphic steles has never been translated into English.

GASKA
06-28-2018, 11:45 AM
Those are Early Bronze Age and thus relatively late, pretty obviously after the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker, R1b-P312 and steppe dna.

Here are some additional Iberian BB results from Lipson et al (2017) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/03/06/114488) not in Olalde et al - Three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo in Spain, in the Basque Country of all places, found with Bell Beaker pottery, all three non-R1b, with no steppe autosomal dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b


As Christina Roth wrote in the abstract of her doctoral dissertation, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula (https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/frontdoor.php?source_opus=100000815&la=en):



This is from pages 147-148 of her dissertation:



Roth's dissertation was published in 2016, before the publication of the Olalde et al paper, and relied on mtDNA. However, it reached the same conclusions.

http://biology-web.nmsu.edu/~houde/1-s2.0-S004724841400253X-main.pdf

"the late Neolithic in Central Europe is characterised by the appearance of 2 interesting Pan.European phenomena CW (eastern Europe) and BBC (western Europe), with an overlapping zone in Central Europe (coexisted for more than 300 years, sometimes even at the same site)."

CW and Unetice-Common Mtdna composition (I-U2-T1-U4-U5a)- Haplogroups clearly for early farmers and similarity with modern day eastern europeans. BB individuals show a high frequency of diverse H lineages-Greater affinities with Southern Europeans. This lead us to suggest that late Neolithic migration event (2.800 BC and (2.500 BC), had brought additional genetic diversity in Central Europe.

However, despite the contrasting Mtdna signature of CW/Unetice and BB individuals, a shared haplotype analysis revealed that 20% of the maternal BBs lineages math those of the CWC, arguing for a considerable amount of admixture both late Neolithic cultures. BB individuals from Kromsdorf (Thuringia) is a good example (Haplogroups I-T1-U2-U5a), 50% match CW lineages in Mittelelbe-Saale.

This paper confirms Elzbieta Haduch's paper (Anthropological point of view- Little Poland Upland) which clearly demonstrated the incorporation of CW women into the BBC. It seems clear that the autosomal composition of central European BBS also depends of their mitochondrial dna.

https://www.academia.edu/5866446/Desideri_J._and_Besse_M._2010_Swiss_Bell_Beaker_po pulation_dynamics_eastern_or_southern_influences_I n_Archaeological_and_anthropological_sciences_2

"In the context of this study, we have sought the provenance of the populational contribution at the end of the neolithic and more specifically for the BB in Western Switzerland. Analysis of nonmetric dental variability has shown that a SOUTHERN population contribution is clearly present in W Switzerland at the end of the Neolithic (continuing during the BB).

ffoucart
06-28-2018, 12:01 PM
This paper confirms Elzbieta Haduch's paper (Anthropological point of view- Little Poland Upland) which clearly demonstrated the incorporation of CW women into the BBC. It seems clear that the autosomal composition of central European BBS also depends of their mitochondrial dna..

Nobody said there were no CW women in Central Europe BBs. What has been said, is that the Steppe autosomal admixture has been mediated by male migrants from the Pontic Steppe, likely from the Yamnaya Horizon. As attested by their Y haplogroups (mainly from the Steppe, R1b L23 and derived) and X chromosome. Read the paper I posted.

Then again, try to understand how is working autosomal DNA, and how is transmitted the X chromosome.

Frankly, you are looking like a parrot, repeating always the same things, without understanding what you are saying, and why this is not pertinent (like referring to mt DNA the way you do). How could we discuss with you if you don't understand our answers? I think you can do better, so please, try.

rms2
06-28-2018, 12:07 PM
The Brandt et al paper was completed in early 2014, before Lazaridis et al and Haak et al, before Christina Roth's doctoral dissertation (which I already cited), and well before Olalde et al.

It also appeared well before the paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (2017), by Tassi et al, which showed that the mtDNA profile of Globular Amphora was closest to that of Bell Beaker and "clearly separated" from that of Corded Ware. As I mentioned before, Kurgan Bell Beaker could not have had a Corded Ware-like mtDNA profile if its best fit was GAC and GAC was "clearly separated" from Corded Ware. If BB had a CW-like mtDNA profile, then GAC's mtDNA profile would also be "clearly separated" from that of BB.

Roth was one of the "et al" in Brandt et al, yet subsequent research led her to contradict the findings of Brandt et al.

The following is from the abstract of her doctoral dissertation, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula (2016 - two years after Brandt et al):



No genetic connection between Iberian and Central European Bell Beakers or the Corded Ware culture could be found. When focusing on the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroup H, differences between the Iberian Peninsula and the groups from other parts of Europe were recognizable. In the Iberian samples set only sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 could be identified. While H1 was present in all Early and Later Neolithic groups from Central and Western Europe, H3 shows strong Western European affinities and is not detectable in Central Europe before the Middle Neolithic. While no strong differences in sub-haplogroup H variability among Iberian groups of different epochs could be detected, a clear shift between Central Europe´s Early and Middle Neolithic is recognizable.


It is ridiculous to dredge up Brandt et al from 2014 to support ideas that have since been proven wrong by subsequent papers, including Olalde et al.

rms2
06-28-2018, 12:23 PM
Regarding the Desideri and Besse academia.edu paper from 2010, as well as Brandt et al (2014), here is something from page 5 of Olalde et al (2018):



These results contradict initial suggestions of gene flow into central Europe based on analysis of mtDNA28 and dental morphology29. In particular, mtDNA haplogroups H1 and H3 were proposed as markers for a Beaker-complex expansion originating in Iberia28, yet H3 is absent among our Iberian Beaker complex-associated individuals.


Of course, two of the early Iberian BB skeletons from Lipson et al (2017) not included among the Olalde et al results belonged to mtDNA H3, but those don't change the data overall, including the autosomal and y-dna data, which show no discernible Iberian ancestry in Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Ibid, pages 3-4:



For Beaker complex-associated individuals from Iberia, the best fit was obtained when Middle Neolithic and Copper Age populations from the same region were used as the source for their Neolithic-related ancestry; we could exclude central and northern European populations as sources of this ancestry (P < 0.0063) (Fig. 2c). Conversely, the Neolithic related ancestry in Beaker-complex-associated individuals outside of Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (for example, Poland_LN, P = 0.18 and Sweden_MN, P = 0.25), and we could significantly exclude Iberian sources (P < 0.0104) (Fig. 2c). These results support mostly different origins for Beaker-complex associated individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside of Iberia.

rms2
06-28-2018, 01:18 PM
Are the results from the three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo from Lipson et al (2017) the oldest known genomic results from the Basque country?

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

From the Lipson et al Supplementary Info:



Dolmen “El Sotillo” (Álava)

El Sotillo megalithic site is located in the Alava Rioja county (Basque country), between the limit of Laguardia-Guardia and Leza municipalities, at the south of the historical territory of Alava. The site is 617 meters above the sea level. It was discovered in 1955 by Domingo Fernández Medrano and excavated by himself, José Miguel Barandiran and Juan M. Apellániz in 1963 [90].

It is a megalithic tomb with a corridor and an almost circular chamber, formed by nine slab stones, a corridor and a tumulus of eleven meters of diameter. During the excavation, numerous lithic tools were uncovered, including six pedunculated arrowheads of silex, a bone and a metal arrowheads, a metal burin, retouched flakes, two fragments of foliaceous projectile points, etc. There are some Bell Beaker pottery remains and a cup with incised decorations.

GASKA
06-28-2018, 01:37 PM
Nobody said there were no CW women in Central Europe BBs. What has been said, is that the Steppe autosomal admixture has been mediated by male migrants from the Pontic Steppe, likely from the Yamnaya Horizon. As attested by their Y haplogroups (mainly from the Steppe, R1b L23 and derived) and X chromosome. Read the paper I posted.

Then again, try to understand how is working autosomal DNA, and how is transmitted the X chromosome.

Frankly, you are looking like a parrot, repeating always the same things, without understanding what you are saying, and why this is not pertinent (like referring to mt DNA the way you do). How could we discuss with you if you don't understand our answers? I think you can do better, so please, try.

I understand your worlds perfectly, what happens is that I absolutely disagree with them. I didn't know that you are in possesion of absolute truth. It's certainly a good thing that you participate in this thread, so that, you can help people who are not as intelligent as you are. You have already used offensive expressions 3 times (stupid, ridiculous, parrot) that are not typical of intelligent and educated people. As you may have seen, I have always been respectful, so I hope you will do the same.

I've seen many posts (if you want I look for them , and I send them to you) denying that CW women had something to do with BBC, and now it turns out that you don't deny it. I mean I was right. Now it turns out, that the steppe autosomal admixture has been mediated by male migrants from the Pontic steppe (R1bL23 and derived), and X chromosome.

1.- What I believe is that there were no steppe migrants in this late period (Post-2.600 BC). Unless you can prove otherwise.
2.- After 300 years of coexistence of the BBs with the CWC, it is normal the high percentage of steppe autosomal admixture (remember the exogamy).
3.- Can you explain me why the Iberian P312 have only 15% of steppe admixture?- It is because they had Iberian mothers or grandmothers or simply this admixture was dissapearing by magic?
4.-How is transmitted the X chromosome in Iberia?
5.-How is working autosomal Dna in Iberia?. It's works differently from the rest of Europe?.
6.- How exactly does genetic recombination work?
7.- The steppe admixture is only transmitted by parents?

Thank you for thinking that I can do better, and I certainly do if you are kind enough to answer this questions.

You have already shown that you are a great expert in P312 (I hope you accept our invitation to discuss with the ridiculous Spanish geneticists, your opinion about the origin of P312) , now is your chance to prove that you are also an expert in autosomal Dna.

GASKA
06-28-2018, 01:46 PM
Are the results from the three skeletons from the megalithic tomb of El Sotillo from Lipson et al (2017) the oldest known genomic results from the Basque country?

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b

From the Lipson et al Supplementary Info:

No I´m sorry, the province of Alava is Basque from the V-VI century of our era. Before the Romans the current Basque Country (Alava, Vizcaya and Guipuzcoa), was occupied by Caristians, Várdulos and Autrigons, who were almost certainly celts. The Basques lived both sides the Pyrenees (Gascony, Navarra, alto Aragón, reaching the Rioja).

Anyway don't worry, I also think that the primitives Basques were probably I2a.

GASKA
06-28-2018, 02:07 PM
I think it is necessary to post again some of the papers that were already shown on this thread just to give a more comprehensive view of the subject.
I think that steppe and iberian BB can be "reconciled" with the help of the research of one of the most talented archeologian of our time ( which is overall more of a "steppeist" than a nativist and he has no bias whatsoever): Christian Jeunesse. The first paper talks about a possible elite influence from the east ( Kemi-Oba and Maykop) to explain the precocity of the single grave revolution ( term is just to give an idea)...

https://www.academia.edu/35229773/JEUNESSE_C._2017_Emergence_of_the_Ideology_of_the_ Warrior_in_the_Western_Mediterranean_during_the_se cond_Half_of_the_fourth_Millennium_BC_Eurasia_Anti qua._Zeitschrift_für_Archäologie_Eurasiens_14_2014 _p._171-184

But let me say this: the english translation of the title is not quite correct so I post also the original one ( Jeunesse is french)....

https://www.academia.edu/21809440/L_Italie_et_l_émergence_de_l_idéologie_du_guerrier _dans_la_seconde_moitié_du_4čme_millénaire_av._J.-C

Together with the manifestation of the new warrior ideology in the western mediterranean we have also the presence of the menhir statues....paper is in french ( do not know if our french friends can provide a version in english)

https://www.academia.edu/15773478/Les_statues-menhir_de_Méditerranée_occidentale

That these statues can be the smoking gun for an early IEzation of the regions involved read this paper ( this is not by jeunesse but perfectly fit the formers papers):

https://www.academia.edu/7174548/Reflections_of_a_Trifunctional_Religious_Ideology_ among_Indo-European_Population_Groups_of_the_3rd_and_2nd_Mill ennia_BC

Last ( but not least and perhaps the most important of all...please everyone must read it carefully ) a paper from jeunesse that revisits former theories and give a more realistic picture of neolithic europe:

https://www.academia.edu/36876527/JEUNESSE_C._2017_From_Neolithic_kings_to_the_Staff ordshire_hoard._Hoards_and_aristocratic_graves_in_ the_European_Neolithic_the_birth_of_a_Barbarian_Eu rope:

Quote:

I have already stressed that there was no objective reason to maintain the tradition dating the birth of the ‘warrior’ to the final Neolithic (Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures), and that the funerary practices of the Corded Ware culture,for instance, could be regarded as either prefiguring the practices of the Bronze Age,or, with equally convincing arguments, as renewing the typical configuration of the Carpathian basin and adjacent southern and central Polish cultures of the second half of fifth millennium.

Remember when I said that flexed burial with its E/W-/N/S orientation was an old europe stuff....with delight I now know that Jeunesse agrees with me......

We'll see what happens! regards

I think we need genetic tests from Kemi-Oba and Marjupol region as soon as possible....

Most people who Know well the prehistory of Europe, agree that the chalcolithics civilizations of Italy, France, Portugal and Spain knew all the BBs traits (ideology of the warrior-copper-individual burials), before the appearance of this culture in Portugal (2.800-2.700 BC, pottery). And as far I know, nobody has denied that they can have their origin in the steppes (I mentioned it in some post referring to the princely burials in Valencina-Sevilla), that is why it's frustrating that they try to convince us that entered with the Central europeans BBs (post-2.500 BC) when existed centuries ago.

And that, despite the fact that we are P312, and therefor we could say that our ancestors brought this culture to Spain or Italy.

ffoucart
06-28-2018, 02:48 PM
1.- What I believe is that there were no steppe migrants in this late period (Post-2.600 BC). Unless you can prove otherwise.
2.- After 300 years of coexistence of the BBs with the CWC, it is normal the high percentage of steppe autosomal admixture (remember the exogamy).
3.- Can you explain me why the Iberian P312 have only 15% of steppe admixture?- It is because they had Iberian mothers or grandmothers or simply this admixture was dissapearing by magic?
4.-How is transmitted the X chromosome in Iberia?
5.-How is working autosomal Dna in Iberia?. It's works differently from the rest of Europe?.
6.- How exactly does genetic recombination work?
7.- The steppe admixture is only transmitted by parents?

Thank you for thinking that I can do better, and I certainly do if you are kind enough to answer this questions.

You have already shown that you are a great expert in P312 (I hope you accept our invitation to discuss with the ridiculous Spanish geneticists, your opinion about the origin of P312) , now is your chance to prove that you are also an expert in autosomal Dna.

You are acting like a parrot, as you are repeating yourself, it doesn't mean you are one. And "ridiculous" was about claims, not the people. It is ridiculous to use an obsolete paper, obsolete because more accurate papers have been published since then and are cited in this thread.

I'm sorry, but I will not give you a lecture about genetics. By the way, I already ansewered to you on all those questions, and gave you links to papers where you can find answer.

But, since I have no grudge against you, and since I think some of the misunderstanding is caused by the use of English, I will give you some clues:
- since X chromosome is transmitted by the mother to the male, and by both parents to females, it does mean that its recombination rate is lower, and that segments size could give information on the date of an admixture event,
- another point about X chromose, as it is transmitted by their mothers to males, it means they don't inherited any part of their fathers X chromosome. So, a male-biased migration would mean that the X chromose in the descendant population would be massively oriented toward the mothers ethnicities.

What does it mean for Central European BBs? If they were the result of a male-biased migration from the Steppe, you would have:
- Steppe Y haplogroups,
- a majority of Central European mt haplogroups (mainly derived from WHG and Farmers),
- X chromosomes with little Steppe admixture.

It is exactly what we find.

Autosomes are transmitted by both parents (except the X chromosome), 50% each. But only at the first generation. Grandparents are not transmitting 25% of their genomes to their grandchildren. They are transmitting AROUND 25%. Recombination means some are giving more than others. At several generations back, some ancestors have transmitted nothing to you. An example, my daughter has 8% from one greatgrandmother, 15% from another. Recombination!

To reach a a certain level of admixture in a said population (Iberian), you need to have either:
- a big migration,
- a founding effect.
(or both).

Explaining 15% Steppe admixture in modern Iberians is not difficult to explain: various migrations and different founder effects.

ADW_1981
06-28-2018, 03:08 PM
Keep telling yourself that.

From Olalde et al, page 4:



At Sion every stela was knocked over, broken, moved, and used as building material for new cists for a new set of people from the East. At Aosta in northern Italy, the same thing occurred at around the same time, but not quite as extensively as at Sion.

Remember also what Reich said in his book about a 30% population replacement in Iberia, with a 90% steppe-related y-dna replacement.

There seems to be some peace, or at least a territorial understanding amongst the expanding R1b males with one another. It doesn't seem like that was always the case with the relations to the non-R1b males who must have been flourishing in Iberia and central Europe immediately prior to the expansion of P312+. Ancient DNA from Italy is sorely needed.

My comment is not to contrast, but to add my thought to your point ;)

razyn
06-28-2018, 04:52 PM
3.- Can you explain me why the Iberian P312 have only 15% of steppe admixture?- It is because they had Iberian mothers or grandmothers or simply this admixture was dissapearing by magic?
4.-How is transmitted the X chromosome in Iberia?
5.-How is working autosomal Dna in Iberia?. It's works differently from the rest of Europe?.

(I hope you accept our invitation to discuss with the ridiculous Spanish geneticists, your opinion about the origin of P312)

Some of these questions, and others possibly relevant to this thread, may be addressed by Olalde at the ISBA conference [8th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology] in Jena, specifically on 19 Sept. 2018 at 9 AM. He gets to read the first paper. (David Reich has the last one in that same session, but his title hasn't yet been announced. He isn't Spanish, so I assume you don't care what he says, anyhow.)

24318

jdean
06-28-2018, 05:09 PM
Jdean - which samples from the Urals and earliest Hungarians are U106+? I am keeping a list of aDNA for U106 and like to add anything I might have missed? Was the U106 Hungarian in the early Hungarian conquerors paper?

Yep the U106 Hungarian aDNA samples are in Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27803981)

From memory the paper stated they had Asian MtDNA but W. European Y-DNA so presumably the original Hungarian marauders were female ? : )

The Ural U106 samples appear in a Russian paper on modern DNA

Variability Of Mitochondrial Dna And Y-Chromosomes In The Populations Of The Volgo-Ural Region (http://earthpapers.net/preview/591151/a?#?page=17)

GASKA
06-28-2018, 06:58 PM
You are acting like a parrot, as you are repeating yourself, it doesn't mean you are one. And "ridiculous" was about claims, not the people. It is ridiculous to use an obsolete paper, obsolete because more accurate papers have been published since then and are cited in this thread.

I'm sorry, but I will not give you a lecture about genetics. By the way, I already ansewered to you on all those questions, and gave you links to papers where you can find answer.

But, since I have no grudge against you, and since I think some of the misunderstanding is caused by the use of English, I will give you some clues:
- since X chromosome is transmitted by the mother to the male, and by both parents to females, it does mean that its recombination rate is lower, and that segments size could give information on the date of an admixture event,
- another point about X chromose, as it is transmitted by their mothers to males, it means they don't inherited any part of their fathers X chromosome. So, a male-biased migration would mean that the X chromose in the descendant population would be massively oriented toward the mothers ethnicities.

What does it mean for Central European BBs? If they were the result of a male-biased migration from the Steppe, you would have:
- Steppe Y haplogroups,
- a majority of Central European mt haplogroups (mainly derived from WHG and Farmers),
- X chromosomes with little Steppe admixture.

It is exactly what we find.

Autosomes are transmitted by both parents (except the X chromosome), 50% each. But only at the first generation. Grandparents are not transmitting 25% of their genomes to their grandchildren. They are transmitting AROUND 25%. Recombination means some are giving more than others. At several generations back, some ancestors have transmitted nothing to you. An example, my daughter has 8% from one greatgrandmother, 15% from another. Recombination!

To reach a a certain level of admixture in a said population (Iberian), you need to have either:
- a big migration,
- a founding effect.
(or both).

Explaining 15% Steppe admixture in modern Iberians is not difficult to explain: various migrations and different founder effects.

Thank you very much, it's clear that you have not understood my sarcastic questions, also my first question didn't refer to the current iberian population but to the Iberian BBs discovered by Olalde with 15% of steppe admixture. Obviously autosomal dna is transmited 50% -father and 50%-mother, so autosomal characteristics can be acquired or lost in few generations.

The Central european BBs were able to acquire their steppe admixture of women who took from neighboring cultures (CWC)

What you call steppe Y haplogroups, for me are Western and Central Europeans Haplogroups (P312/Df27/U152/L21), or may be you have discovered these haplogroups or their ancestors (L11/L51) in the steppe cultures?

A majority of Central european mt haplogroups and a minority of Iberian mt haplogroups, and remember that the women never travel alone.

We will talk about parrots and ridiculous theories later.

rms2
06-28-2018, 11:21 PM
Regarding the relatively low - but not zero - levels of steppe dna in some Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker people, the following excerpts might help. They are from Valdiosera et al (2018), Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Mar 2018, 115 (13) 3428-3433; DOI:10.1073/pnas.1717762115.

From page 3432:



The subtle but clear genetic differences between early Neolithic Iberian farmers and early Neolithic central European farmers point toward two independent migrations, potentially originating from two slightly different source populations. These populations followed different routes, one along the Mediterranean coast, giving rise to early Neolithic Iberian farmers, and one via mainland Europe forming early Neolithic central European farmers. This directly links all Neolithic Iberians with the first migrants that arrived with the initial Mediterranean Neolithic wave of expansion. These Iberians mixed with local hunter-gatherers (but maintained farming/pastoral subsistence strategies, i.e., diet), leading to a recovery from the loss of genetic diversity emerging from the initial migration founder bottleneck. Only after the spread of Bell Beaker pottery did steppe-related ancestry arrive in Iberia, where it had smaller contributions to the population compared with the impact that it had in central Europe. This implies that the two prehistoric migrations causing major population turnovers in central Europe had differential effects at the southwestern edge of their distribution: The Neolithic migrations caused substantial changes in the Iberian gene pool (the introduction of agriculture by farmers) (6, 9, 11, 13, 24), whereas the impact of Bronze Age migrations (Yamnaya) was significantly smaller in Iberia than in north-central Europe (24). The post-Neolithic prehistory of Iberia is generally characterized by interactions between residents rather than by migrations from other parts of Europe, resulting in relative genetic continuity, while most other regions were subject to major genetic turnovers after the Neolithic (4, 6, 7, 9, 25, 48). Although Iberian populations represent the furthest wave of Neolithic expansion in the westernmost Mediterranean, the subsequent populations maintain a surprisingly high genetic legacy of the original pioneer farming migrants from the east compared with their central European counterparts.


Ibid, page 3431:



Late Neolithic and Bronze Age north central Europeans display substantial fractions of Pontic Steppe ancestry (up to 71% estimated with qpAdm; 93% based on supervised ADMIXTURE) (SI Appendix, Fig. S5.3) at the onset of the Bronze Age. However, steppe ancestry in Bronze Age individuals from Iberia (13%; 18%) and Hungary (21%; 38%) is lower than in their north-central European counterparts (Fig. 2b), a pattern previously suggested but not directly quantified (24). The estimates for Bronze Age Iberians are close to the 15% steppe ancestry estimated for the modern Spanish population (Fig. 2b). Consistently, Bronze Age populations from Greece and Anatolia also show a limited increase in steppe ancestry compared with their Neolithic ancestors (15). This reduced impact of Steppe herders on these populations could reflect a decrease in the number of migrants or a dilution of Steppe ancestry during this process. In contrast to the events in north-central Europe, the arrival of most of the Yamnaya-related ancestry in Iberia postdates the onset of Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia, suggesting that the Bell Beaker culture spread culturally (48), while steppe ancestry was brought into Iberia through later migrations. Notably, both male Bronze Age Iberian individuals in this study as well as all three Iberian Bronze Age males in ref. 24 carried R1b-M269 Y chromosomes (SI Appendix, Table S4.1) also found with high frequency in individuals associated with the Yamnaya culture, the source population of steppe ancestry (4, 6), indicating a continuing male-driven migration from central Europe into southwestern Europe (8, 24, 53).


Remember, however, that in his recent book Reich says his and Dan Bradley's results from Iberia indicate a 30% population turnover and a 90% y-dna replacement with the arrival there of Yamnaya-derived lineages.

rms2
06-28-2018, 11:41 PM
. . .

But, since I have no grudge against you, and since I think some of the misunderstanding is caused by the use of English, I will give you some clues:
- since X chromosome is transmitted by the mother to the male, and by both parents to females, it does mean that its recombination rate is lower, and that segments size could give information on the date of an admixture event,
- another point about X chromose, as it is transmitted by their mothers to males, it means they don't inherited any part of their fathers X chromosome. So, a male-biased migration would mean that the X chromose in the descendant population would be massively oriented toward the mothers ethnicities.

What does it mean for Central European BBs? If they were the result of a male-biased migration from the Steppe, you would have:
- Steppe Y haplogroups,
- a majority of Central European mt haplogroups (mainly derived from WHG and Farmers),
- X chromosomes with little Steppe admixture.

It is exactly what we find.

Autosomes are transmitted by both parents (except the X chromosome), 50% each. But only at the first generation. Grandparents are not transmitting 25% of their genomes to their grandchildren. They are transmitting AROUND 25%. Recombination means some are giving more than others. At several generations back, some ancestors have transmitted nothing to you. An example, my daughter has 8% from one greatgrandmother, 15% from another. Recombination!

To reach a a certain level of admixture in a said population (Iberian), you need to have either:
- a big migration,
- a founding effect.
(or both).

Explaining 15% Steppe admixture in modern Iberians is not difficult to explain: various migrations and different founder effects.

Excellent explanation. I would have given you an official "thanks", but Anthrogenica says I have to spread my thanks around to others before I can give you another one.

Like I said, excellent explanation, but our friend is evidently not interested in the evidence. If he were, he would realize it is snowing him under and change his mind . . . or slink away in embarrassment.

rms2
06-28-2018, 11:56 PM
Some of these questions, and others possibly relevant to this thread, may be addressed by Olalde at the ISBA conference [8th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology] in Jena, specifically on 19 Sept. 2018 at 9 AM. He gets to read the first paper. (David Reich has the last one in that same session, but his title hasn't yet been announced. He isn't Spanish, so I assume you don't care what he says, anyhow.)

24318

That paper that Dr. Olalde is going to talk about sounds like it should be a good one. I'm guessing it will include the thus-far-unpublished Iberian results Dr. Reich spoke of in his recent book, the results that led him to conclude that, with the arrival of Yamnaya-derived lineages, there was a 30% population turnover in Iberia overall and a 90% y-dna replacement.

razyn
06-28-2018, 11:57 PM
We will talk about parrots and ridiculous theories later.

I don't doubt that at all.

But for the record, my allusion to an ex-parrot was referencing an old Monty Python television sketch, presumably familiar to the several previous posters who had cited old Monty Python movies. The sketch revolves around the refusal by the seller of a dead parrot to admit, to its purchaser, that it was dead. Metaphorically, the deceased parrot stands (in this case) for the cherished but incorrect notion that DF27, or P312, or R1b originated in Iberia. Here is the sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

I did not mean to imply that GASKA was parroting stuff. That concept was introduced by ffoucart.

ffoucart
06-29-2018, 05:31 AM
Thank you very much, it's clear that you have not understood my sarcastic questions, also my first question didn't refer to the current iberian population but to the Iberian BBs discovered by Olalde with 15% of steppe admixture. Obviously autosomal dna is transmited 50% -father and 50%-mother, so autosomal characteristics can be acquired or lost in few generations.

The Central european BBs were able to acquire their steppe admixture of women who took from neighboring cultures (CWC)

What you call steppe Y haplogroups, for me are Western and Central Europeans Haplogroups (P312/Df27/U152/L21), or may be you have discovered these haplogroups or their ancestors (L11/L51) in the steppe cultures?

A majority of Central european mt haplogroups and a minority of Iberian mt haplogroups, and remember that the women never travel alone.

We will talk about parrots and ridiculous theories later.

Your evidently lack of knowledge about genetics means that while trying to be sarcastic, you are only revealing the fact you don't know what you are talking about.

If for you, P312 and its subclades are from Western or Central Europe, you are living in La-la-land. Nobody serious could make this claim anymore. Even the last paper about DF27 is recognizing the fact that diffusion of P312 is linked with Steppe admixture. They were trying to defend an Iberian origin of DF27, but of DF27 only.

Given what I said in the previous post about the X chromosome of Central European BBs, you should have understood that the main Steppe Admixture could not have been mediated through CW women. A mix of European Farmers males and CW women would mean that Steppe Admixture on chromosome X would be higher than on the average autosomal DNA. Then again, it is not what we see.

You know, you are trying to transform a dog into a parrot, just because the parrot sold previsouly was dead. Nothing else.

Arch
06-29-2018, 07:57 AM
Interesting. I would think the Iberian Bell Beaker would be older as it adopts an older tradition of collective burials versus the Saxony-Anhalt Beakers carrying their much later Steppe traditions of single burials westward in comparison to the much older Neolithic communal burials further away in Iberia. It just seems kind of backwards to think a newer group would adopt a much older tradition versus just imposing their own culture onto the older one, or replacing it altogether.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 09:00 AM
Regarding the relatively low - but not zero - levels of steppe dna in some Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker people, the following excerpts might help. They are from Valdiosera et al (2018), Four millennia of Iberian biomolecular prehistory illustrate the impact of prehistoric migrations at the far end of Eurasia, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Mar 2018, 115 (13) 3428-3433; DOI:10.1073/pnas.1717762115.

From page 3432:



Ibid, page 3431:



Remember, however, that in his recent book Reich says his and Dan Bradley's results from Iberia indicate a 30% population turnover and a 90% y-dna replacement with the arrival there of Yamnaya-derived lineages.

I think you have not read Valdiosera's work well, because when she talks about "the impact of Bronze Age migrations (Yamnaya) was significantly smaller in Iberia" it refers to the cases of R1b M269 that she discovered in Iberia- El Pirulejo cave (ARGAR culture, 2.000-1.500 BC-R1b M269), los Lagos cave (COGOTAS culture, 2.000-1.500 BC-R1b DF27) and 3 samples of R1b M269 in the Atlantic Bronze culture. This only means that the Bronze age in Iberia (2.000-1.000 BC) was absolutely dominated by P312, which explains why it's the majority haplogroup in the current population.

She didn't Know that Olalde had discovered 5 samples of P312 in BBs burials (2.275 BC) and obviously she is wrong to say that the migrations of the Bronze Age come from Yamnaya (culture that existed between 3.300-2.600 BC). Migrations were not even necessary to justify DF27 (Cogotas) and M269 (el Argar) since we have R1b P312 in the iberian chalcolithic. I guess you don't think there were migrations from Yamnaya between 2.000-1.500 BC, right?

Regarding Pontic Steppe Ancestry, you are quoting the work that JeanL sent to this thread 1 month ago, when you said that I5665 (Virgazal) had a great porcentage of steppe admixture. Jean L shaw you and your followers that it was barely 15%. That 15% is maintained in Iberia during the Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC) which means that there may have been small population movements from Central Europe because otherwise the entire steppe admixture would have been lost.

In any case, that at least you are consulting papers concerning prehistory of Spain, surely with time you became an expert.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 09:30 AM
Your evidently lack of knowledge about genetics means that while trying to be sarcastic, you are only revealing the fact you don't know what you are talking about.

If for you, P312 and its subclades are from Western or Central Europe, you are living in La-la-land. Nobody serious could make this claim anymore. Even the last paper about DF27 is recognizing the fact that diffusion of P312 is linked with Steppe admixture. They were trying to defend an Iberian origin of DF27, but of DF27 only.

Given what I said in the previous post about the X chromosome of Central European BBs, you should have understood that the main Steppe Admixture could not have been mediated through CW women. A mix of European Farmers males and CW women would mean that Steppe Admixture on chromosome would be higher than on the average autosomal DNA. Then again, it is not what we see.

You know, you are trying to transform a dog into a parrot, just because the parrot sold previsouly was dead. Nothing else.

A 12 years old child knows perfectly the explanation of autosomal Dna that you have sent to this thread, surely that child had received better education than you, because you use offensive terms to refer to the work of prestigious geneticits.

You are living in LA LA LAND, nobody serious could claim that P312 is from the steppes. To affirm that categorically first you have to prove it and OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T, because it's impossible. Can tou tell me in what culture of the steppes have you located P312? I have asked you this 3 times, and your answer is always the same, that is NONE.

remember the question?- Was Saxony-Anhalt the main expansion area for L11/P312? In my opinion the main expansion area has to be close to its origin. How can P312 have its origin in Yamnaya or any other eastern culture if L21, Df27 and U152 do not exist in that region?.

Obviously you only try to offend, you are not the first to do it in this thread and probably not the last one, I will try to continue being respectful. I would be embarrased to behave like some people do.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 09:46 AM
I don't doubt that at all.

But for the record, my allusion to an ex-parrot was referencing an old Monty Python television sketch, presumably familiar to the several previous posters who had cited old Monty Python movies. The sketch revolves around the refusal by the seller of a dead parrot to admit, to its purchaser, that it was dead. Metaphorically, the deceased parrot stands (in this case) for the cherished but incorrect notion that DF27, or P312, or R1b originated in Iberia. Here is the sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

I did not mean to imply that GASKA was parroting stuff. That concept was introduced by ffoucart.

Hello Richard, it would be a lack of education not to answer you after sending me 6 posts. You already know that's always a pleasure to talk to you. I hope you find something better to do than try to provoke me, because you are not going to get it. Don't worry about Ińigo Olalde, we will try to see him this summer in San Sebastián.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 09:53 AM
Excellent explanation. I would have given you an official "thanks", but Anthrogenica says I have to spread my thanks around to others before I can give you another one.

Like I said, excellent explanation, but our friend is evidently not interested in the evidence. If he were, he would realize it is snowing him under and change his mind . . . or slink away in embarrassment.

Obviously I am not your friend, you should contain your attacks, and spend your time finding better arguments for your theories.

dsm
06-29-2018, 10:21 AM
Obviously I am not your friend, you should contain your attacks, and spend your time finding better arguments for your theories.

Gaska,

Please, please stop your characteristic complaints that are really emotional issues "I am not your friend" - this is immature debating. Just state your facts and let us observers evaluate the data you present. If you continue to inject your ego into your posts, most inteligent readers will likely do what I believe most of us are already doing which is is to stop reading your rambling posts. I read RMS, I read Etrusco, I read Rrocca, I have stopped readIng Gaska.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I suspect that blunt force trauma, is a practiced reception you are now resillient to. "Read and hear"

D

rms2
06-29-2018, 11:24 AM
I think you have not read Valdiosera's work well, because when she talks about "the impact of Bronze Age migrations (Yamnaya) was significantly smaller in Iberia" it refers to the cases of R1b M269 that she discovered in Iberia- El Pirulejo cave (ARGAR culture, 2.000-1.500 BC-R1b M269), los Lagos cave (COGOTAS culture, 2.000-1.500 BC-R1b DF27) and 3 samples of R1b M269 in the Atlantic Bronze culture. This only means that the Bronze age in Iberia (2.000-1.000 BC) was absolutely dominated by P312, which explains why it's the majority haplogroup in the current population.

It's all about chronology, GASKA. The arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker in Iberia c. 2500 BC came first. The other finds you mention above came afterwards, after R1b-M269 and steppe dna had entered the picture with Yamnaya-descended Kurgan Bell Beaker.



She didn't Know that Olalde had discovered 5 samples of P312 in BBs burials (2.275 BC) and obviously she is wrong to say that the migrations of the Bronze Age come from Yamnaya (culture that existed between 3.300-2.600 BC). Migrations were not even necessary to justify DF27 (Cogotas) and M269 (el Argar) since we have R1b P312 in the iberian chalcolithic. I guess you don't think there were migrations from Yamnaya between 2.000-1.500 BC, right?

See the very elementary lesson on the concepts before and after in my comments above.



Regarding Pontic Steppe Ancestry, you are quoting the work that JeanL sent to this thread 1 month ago, when you said that I5665 (Virgazal) had a great porcentage of steppe admixture. Jean L shaw you and your followers that it was barely 15%. That 15% is maintained in Iberia during the Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC) which means that there may have been small population movements from Central Europe because otherwise the entire steppe admixture would have been lost.

You keep harping on 15% steppe ancestry, as if that helped your case. It doesn't, because it isn't zero steppe ancestry. 15% is still fairly substantial. When I made that remark in the earlier post, I was working from memory rather than going back and consulting the report, and that was an error, especially when engaging with desperate people who think 15% steppe ancestry is some kind of victory for their cause, as if 15% were nothing.

The problem you have with 15% steppe ancestry is that it came from the steppe and is still associated with the arrival of R1b-M269 in Iberia.

I understand what Valdiosera wrote. She explained the lower level of steppe ancestry in Iberia relative to northern Europe rather well.



In any case, that at least you are consulting papers concerning prehistory of Spain, surely with time you became an expert.

One thing that is apparent is that those papers aren't doing your cause any good.

The new one from Reich and colleagues, the one that Dr. Olalde will talk about this coming September, should be really enlightening, given Reich's remarks in his recent book.

rms2
06-29-2018, 11:29 AM
Obviously I am not your friend . . .

That may be true, but you are still my y-dna cousin, descended in the y-dna line, like me, from Russian steppe pastoralists.

If you would only stop denying your patrilineal ancestors and trying to make aboriginal western Europeans out of them, we would get along better.

MikeWhalen
06-29-2018, 11:31 AM
24323

honestly guys...good stuff still gets brought up and discussed in this thread
...except when it gets derailed by the troll, who by his last posts, is clearly just throwing any old thing out, to get a rise out of you guys and increase his post count

jm2c

Mike

rms2
06-29-2018, 12:23 PM
Unfortunately, no one is discussing the original topic, so right now the only game in town, if one wants to talk about Bell Beaker, is this back-and-forth about Iberian stuff.

I tried posting some stuff in the thread about R1b-L21 Bell Beaker, but evidently not too many L21 guys visit this site anymore, or they are just Bell Beakered out.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 01:29 PM
It's all about chronology, GASKA. The arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker in Iberia c. 2500 BC came first. The other finds you mention above came afterwards, after R1b-M269 and steppe dna had entered the picture with Yamnaya-descended Kurgan Bell Beaker.



See the very elementary lesson on the concepts before and after in my comments above.



You keep harping on 15% steppe ancestry, as if that helped your case. It doesn't, because it isn't zero steppe ancestry. 15% is still fairly substantial. When I made that remark in the earlier post, I was working from memory rather than going back and consulting the report, and that was an error, especially when engaging with desperate people who think 15% steppe ancestry is some kind of victory for their cause, as if 15% were nothing.

The problem you have with 15% steppe ancestry is that it came from the steppe and is still associated with the arrival of R1b-M269 in Iberia.

I understand what Valdiosera wrote. She explained the lower level of steppe ancestry in Iberia relative to northern Europe rather well.



One thing that is apparent is that those papers aren't doing your cause any good.

The new one from Reich and colleagues, the one that Dr. Olalde will talk about this coming September, should be really enlightening, given Reich's remarks in his recent book.

I have to admite that you are one of the few people who has been concerned to look for documentation regarding the issues that I had raised, and that is always appreciated, it shows that you like genetics, although we may never agree.

Regarding 15% of steppe admixture I will try to explain why it's important for us. If the Iberians BBs (2.275 BC) only had 15%, that means that R1b-P312 had several generations in Spain and we can locate interesting BBs sites where to keep looking. We may not find more cases, but if we do, we can better understand our haplogroup.

It's true that I am your Y-dna cousin, and that we have a common ancestor. If he is finally a steppe pastoralist, we will have to start thinking about visiting Russia and Ukraine, although I prefer the Pyrenees.

rms2
06-29-2018, 01:34 PM
I have to admite that you are one of the few people who has been concerned to look for documentation regarding the issues that I had raised, and that is always appreciated, it shows that you like genetics, although we may never agree.

Regarding 15% of steppe admixture I will try to explain why it's important for us. If the Iberians BBs (2.275 BC) only had 15%, that means that R1b-P312 had several generations in Spain and we can locate interesting BBs sites where to keep looking. We may not find more cases, but if we do, we can better understand our haplogroup.

It would take only a very few generations to completely wash out an autosomal signal of any kind, and Valdiosera explained the diluted level of steppe dna at the extreme southwestern end of the IE trek.

15% steppe dna is still a lot of steppe dna. One must still explain how it got there and how R1b-M269, which wasn't present in Neolithic Iberia, got there.



It's true that I am your Y-dna cousin, and that we have a common ancestor. If he is finally a steppe pastoralist, we will have to start thinking about visiting Russia and Ukraine, although I prefer the Pyrenees.

I have been to the Russian steppe and have even swum in the Volga River. It has its own beauty, but I am pretty sure I would like the Pyrenees better myself.

GASKA
06-29-2018, 04:58 PM
It would take only a very few generations to completely wash out an autosomal signal of any kind, and Valdiosera explained the diluted level of steppe dna at the extreme southwestern end of the IE trek.

15% steppe dna is still a lot of steppe dna. One must still explain how it got there and how R1b-M269, which wasn't present in Neolithic Iberia, got there.



I have been to the Russian steppe and have even swum in the Volga River. It has its own beauty, but I am pretty sure I would like the Pyrenees better myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfzGUyBtSS4

etrusco
06-29-2018, 05:36 PM
rms2 and GASKA


more likely ( as for now) as the PIE homeland location would be Sredni Stog in eastern Ukraine ( but a russian speaking region with a lot of ethnic russians). Sad today this part of Europe is the core area were russians and ukrainians are fighting.....hope the meeting between Trump and Putin in Helsinky will help to end this stupid war.

GoldenHind
06-29-2018, 05:41 PM
But for the record, my allusion to an ex-parrot was referencing an old Monty Python television sketch, presumably familiar to the several previous posters who had cited old Monty Python movies. The sketch revolves around the refusal by the seller of a dead parrot to admit, to its purchaser, that it was dead. Metaphorically, the deceased parrot stands (in this case) for the cherished but incorrect notion that DF27, or P312, or R1b originated in Iberia. Here is the sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218



He's not dead, he's just pining for the fjords. Lovely plumage, the Norwegian blue.

Bollox79
06-29-2018, 09:43 PM
Yep the U106 Hungarian aDNA samples are in Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27803981)

From memory the paper stated they had Asian MtDNA but W. European Y-DNA so presumably the original Hungarian marauders were female ? : )

The Ural U106 samples appear in a Russian paper on modern DNA

Variability Of Mitochondrial Dna And Y-Chromosomes In The Populations Of The Volgo-Ural Region (http://earthpapers.net/preview/591151/a?#?page=17)


Ahh ok I remember these two U106+ guys - they were burials 1 and 3 in that paper - grave 1 was a commoner(?) with no grave findings and grave 3 was a warrior grave with all the gear etc... and in the paper they say concerning 1 and 3: "It is notable, however, that STR data of sam-
ples 1 and 3 show a strong indication of direct paternal
relations with ten shared loci (D3S1358, TH01, D21S11,
D10S1248, D1S1656, D2S1338, D22S1045, VWA, D2S441,
and D12S391). As according to the GenoY25 assay sam-ple 1 and 3 falls in the same haplogroup
R1b1b1a (ESM_2) and both died at an old age (Fig. 1), these individuals were likely brothers.

Perhaps this weekend I can look if the data/bam files are available to the public and see if we can get a sub group out of the those two U106ers. If I had to guess I'd say most likely L48 of some type or Z18 (considering the Longobards are the most "eastern" Germanic samples tested to date along with the Chieftain from Poprad - and L48 is a majority of samples)... but worth a look! I will add both of them to my growing list of ancient/medieval DNA samples over the weekend!

I think these samples date to the 800s AD - so they are probably descendants of Goths or Vandals (or other more Eastern Germanic group) who got involved with the early Hungarians...

Cheers for reminding me!

dsm
06-29-2018, 11:38 PM
rms2 and GASKA


more likely ( as for now) as the PIE homeland location would be Sredni Stog in eastern Ukraine ( but a russian speaking region with a lot of ethnic russians). Sad today this part of Europe is the core area were russians and ukrainians are fighting.....hope the meeting between Trump and Putin in Helsinky will help to end this stupid war.

If you look at it. There has been constant on-going fighting for many 1000s of years in particular areas of Europe. Particularly in the Caucasus (equally so today), in the Donetsk region of Ukraine (or is it almost Russian again :( ) , and in the Balkans. Those areas (among some others) seem prone to ongoing warring.

rms2
06-30-2018, 01:39 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfzGUyBtSS4

Beautiful. Thanks.

GASKA
06-30-2018, 07:04 AM
rms2 and GASKA


more likely ( as for now) as the PIE homeland location would be Sredni Stog in eastern Ukraine ( but a russian speaking region with a lot of ethnic russians). Sad today this part of Europe is the core area were russians and ukrainians are fighting.....hope the meeting between Trump and Putin in Helsinky will help to end this stupid war.

The situation is worrying. The European Union has to remain united, Italy doesn't participate in the new military intervention force (France, Germany, Spain....), we have to solve the problem of inmigration or the Union will explode. We also need the Italians because they are the heart of Europe. The Russians are never going to give up their "territories" in Ukraine.

etrusco
06-30-2018, 07:44 AM
The situation is worrying. The European Union has to remain united, Italy doesn't participate in the new military intervention force (France, Germany, Spain....), we have to solve the problem of inmigration or the Union will explode. We also need the Italians because they are the heart of Europe. The Russians are never going to give up their "territories" in Ukraine.

The European union cannot "remain" united because it is not united yet. It has a single currency but without a political union. You need to have only a basic of economics to understand this is as crazy as hell. So either they go on with a fiscal and political union ( how many europeans would agree as for now?) or go back to the situation ante 2002 ( introduction of the euro). We cannot go on with the current situation. A single currency without a common fiscal policy is unsustainable. It fits only german's ( and its satellites) interests. As for the military force we need to clarify: is this a serious alternative to Nato in order to have the chance to have common foreign policy ( you can have it only with a military "independence" ) or it is just a surrogate of Nato and in this case is both useless and ridiculous.
The actual borders of Ukraine were made up during Soviet times....Crimea that was russian, became ukranian and the same happened with the eastern part. If we would have wise politicians the solution is simple. eastern ukraine and crimea to the Russians and case closed. But in the west russophobia ( among elites and establishment not the people) will not permit that so likely current tensions will not fade away. At least with trump we avoided a military confrontation between Nato and Russia which was a likely scenario would have Hillary Clinton won the elections in 2016.

GASKA
06-30-2018, 08:58 AM
The European union cannot "remain" united because it is not united yet. It has a single currency but without a political union. You need to have only a basic of economics to understand this is as crazy as hell. So either they go on with a fiscal and political union ( how many europeans would agree as for now?) or go back to the situation ante 2002 ( introduction of the euro). We cannot go on with the current situation. A single currency without a common fiscal policy is unsustainable. It fits only german's ( and its satellites) interests. As for the military force we need to clarify: is this a serious alternative to Nato in order to have the chance to have common foreign policy ( you can have it only with a military "independence" ) or it is just a surrogate of Nato and in this case is both useless and ridiculous.
The actual borders of Ukraine were made up during Soviet times....Crimea that was russian, became ukranian and the same happened with the eastern part. If we would have wise politicians the solution is simple. eastern ukraine and crimea to the Russians and case closed. But in the west russophobia ( among elites and establishment not the people) will not permit that so likely current tensions will not fade away. At least with trump we avoided a military confrontation between Nato and Russia which was a likely scenario would have Hillary Clinton won the elections in 2016.

Do you think it's posibly to face this alone?

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20170629STO78630/eu-migrant-crisis-facts-and-figures

ffoucart
06-30-2018, 09:19 AM
This is not the place to speak of politics.

But anyway, the real problem in the UE are national governments, because through the EC, they are the ones really in charge of UE politics. This is a major problem as it means that UE is not democratic: the Parliament can't make law (not alone as the EC has the upper hand). And national governments are often taking measures in the EC which they are not backing officially. The EC should be excluded from making law, which should be the EP prerogative.
Another main difficulty is about army: if you are excluding U.K., only France has a real military power and will to use it. Italy, Spain and Germany are relying on US troops. It must change. Especially Germany. If united, those countries could easily overthrow Russia (which is not USSR).
And no, it is not possible to let Russia keep Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Because next time it will be Baltic Countries, Eastern Poland.... Look where Kaliningrad is. No way Russia could let it be that way in the long run.
If you don't want war, act firm. Remember what happened in 1936. Cowardice is never rewarded.

etrusco
06-30-2018, 10:07 AM
This is not the place to speak of politics.

But anyway, the real problem in the UE are national governments, because through the EC, they are the ones really in charge of UE politics. This is a major problem as it means that UE is not democratic: the Parliament can't make law (not alone as the EC has the upper hand). And national governments are often the taking measures in the EC which they are backing officially. The EC should be excluded from making law, which should be the EP prerogative.
Another main difficulty is about army: if you are excluding U.K., only France has a real military power and will to use it. Italy, Spain and Germany are relying on US troops. It must change. Especially Germany. If united, those countries could easily overthrow Russia (which is not USSR).
And no, it is not possible to let Russia keep Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Because next time it will be Baltic Countries, Eastern Poland.... Look where Kaliningrad is. No way Russia could let it be that way in the loot run.
If you don't want war, act firm. Remember what happened in 1936. Cowardice is never rewarded.

Completely agree with the first part: we need a political union and one of the first step must be to give europe a functioning and accountable legislative body. As for the military well western european countries are no match for the russians..... believe me if France Spain Germany and Italy would be at war with Russia it will be only a matter of days and Putin's tanks will be in Lisbon and Brittany and R1a will be our grand son's dominating haplotype a very Kurgan BB scenario indeed!!! Even with UK in the party it will be the same........ only the USA could provide a different outcome.
But Russia does not not want to invade us, on the contrary it is the West that is constantly provoking Putin with false accusations, false flag terrorist attack ( like that in UK...a clear inside job of the british). They do not like Russia ( western establishment) because Russia is an independent nation state that wants to preserve its national identity its religious culture and tradition ( globalist elites want a world without traditions without religions without families... they want to get rid of everything is not converted in the power of money). But with Trump they got a fatal blow hence their bitter hate towards him and all the efforts to "frame" his presidency. But at the end they will fail.

GASKA
06-30-2018, 10:48 AM
This is not the place to speak of politics.

But anyway, the real problem in the UE are national governments, because through the EC, they are the ones really in charge of UE politics. This is a major problem as it means that UE is not democratic: the Parliament can't make law (not alone as the EC has the upper hand). And national governments are often the taking measures in the EC which they are backing officially. The EC should be excluded from making law, which should be the EP prerogative.
Another main difficulty is about army: if you are excluding U.K., only France has a real military power and will to use it. Italy, Spain and Germany are relying on US troops. It must change. Especially Germany. If united, those countries could easily overthrow Russia (which is not USSR).
And no, it is not possible to let Russia keep Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Because next time it will be Baltic Countries, Eastern Poland.... Look where Kaliningrad is. No way Russia could let it be that way in the loot run.
If you don't want war, act firm. Remember what happened in 1936. Cowardice is never rewarded.

In this, I have to agree with ffoucart, we have troops in Lithuania because the Balthic countries are scared, and troops in the Sahel with France to try to control terrorism and
illegal inmigration. The military intervention force seeks to create a kind of Protectorate in Africa because NATO will never send troops there.

If tomorrow we beat the Russians in the World Championship, Putin may change his mind and send us a horde of R1a.

ffoucart
06-30-2018, 01:36 PM
Completely agree with the first part: we need a political union and one of the first step must be to give europe a functioning and accountable legislative body. As for the military well western european countries are no match for the russians..... l.


France and Germany combined have equivalent power in troops and technology. The real difference is not there. Not enough artificial satellites (they are US) and similar "soft" power.

You are wrong: Russia is not as powerfull as you think. They are pretending to be, they are not. It's a frog not a bull. Russia population is only twice the one of France, and far poorer. Look at what they've done in Syria: they have pushed their forces to the extreme limits (Russia have put an halt to military operations when it was no more possible to continue). Russia real power is diplomatic, as nobody is wanting real war with Russia. A large part of russian troops is badly trained and is lacking modern equipment.

Anyway, there is no doubt that UE combined forces are far more powerfull than Russia's ones. Not only because of military forces themselves, but also because UE is far more populous and rich. And with a more advanced technology.

There are two countries with whom war is a real possibility in the next years for UE: Russia and Turkey. It would be best to prepare things rather than dismissing these possibilities.

Just a reminder: France military budget (including nuclear force) is around 60 billions $, Russia is 70 billions $.

etrusco
06-30-2018, 02:39 PM
France and Germany combined have equivalent power in troops and technology. The real difference is not there. Not enough artificial satellites (they are US) and similar "soft" power.

You are wrong: Russia is not as powerfull as you think. They are pretending to be, they are not. It's a frog not a bull. Russia population is only twice the one of France, and far poorer. Look at what they've done in Syria: they have pushed their forces to the extreme limits (Russia have put an halt to military operations when it was no more possible to continue). Russia real power is diplomatic, as nobody is wanting real war with Russia. A large part of russian troops is badly trained and is lacking modern equipment.

Anyway, there is no doubt that UE combined forces are far more powerfull than Russia's ones. Not only because of military forces themselves, but also because UE is far more populous and rich. And with a more advanced technology.

There are two countries with whom war is a real possibility in the next years for UE: Russia and Turkey. It would be best to prepare things rather than dismissing these possibilities.

Just a reminder: France military budget (including nuclear force) is around 60 billions $, Russia is 70 billions $.

Well the west ( establishment) eagerly wants to get rid of Russia ( probably they want to dismember that huge state in the way they did with jugoslavia) if Russia is a frog they have already done it be sure. And if it is enough to defeat Russian only with european forces even more they would have already done it. Perhaps exploiting ukraine and force it to attack Russia. Russian population is poorer yes...that in time of war and hardship it is a positive factor ....russian are more used than western european to go trough hard times. If I look at the western population I do not think they can stand a real war more than a few weeks, after seeing body bags coming home they will psychologically crumble....not to mention a scenario in which the war is fought in our territory. Also remember that Putin has his entire people with him....in Europe I do not think people will eagerly accept to fight and die for a system many of them believe is corrupt and rigged. Only USA intervention will tilt the balance for the west hence the panic among eastern european countries and baltics for the possible demise of Nato. You do not panic in front of a frog.

War with Turkey unlikely...it is a part of Nato, the USA will never allowed it (remember when it comes to real things in Europe ONLY WASHINGTON matters despite all the bragging of european leaders) also Erdogan plays the bad guy to gain more money and concessions in his fight against the kurds he will never cross a red line with the west. More likely is a scenario with a war against Iran..... probably the only war in which Trump and his opponents agree....hence very likely.

Military budget unless there's a structural technological gap is not a good indicator otherwise we would not have had the well known outcome of Vietnam Afghanistan ( both for russian and american) Iraq, Syria.

Kopfjäger
06-30-2018, 03:15 PM
France and Germany combined have equivalent power in troops and technology. The real difference is not there. Not enough artificial satellites (they are US) and similar "soft" power.

You are wrong: Russia is not as powerfull as you think. They are pretending to be, they are not. It's a frog not a bull. Russia population is only twice the one of France, and far poorer. Look at what they've done in Syria: they have pushed their forces to the extreme limits (Russia have put an halt to military operations when it was no more possible to continue). Russia real power is diplomatic, as nobody is wanting real war with Russia. A large part of russian troops is badly trained and is lacking modern equipment.

Anyway, there is no doubt that UE combined forces are far more powerfull than Russia's ones. Not only because of military forces themselves, but also because UE is far more populous and rich. And with a more advanced technology.

There are two countries with whom war is a real possibility in the next years for UE: Russia and Turkey. It would be best to prepare things rather than dismissing these possibilities.

Just a reminder: France military budget (including nuclear force) is around 60 billions $, Russia is 70 billions $.

Off-topic, but the French Legion is pretty badass.

ffoucart
06-30-2018, 05:15 PM
Well the west ( establishment) eagerly wants to get rid of Russia ( probably they want to dismember that huge state in the way they did with jugoslavia) if Russia is a frog they have already done it be sure. And if it is enough to defeat Russian only with european forces even more they would have already done it. Perhaps exploiting ukraine and force it to attack Russia. Russian population is poorer yes...that in time of war and hardship it is a positive factor ....russian are more used than western european to go trough hard times. If I look at the western population I do not think they can stand a real war more than a few weeks, after seeing body bags coming home they will psychologically crumble....not to mention a scenario in which the war is fought in our territory. Also remember that Putin has his entire people with him....in Europe I do not think people will eagerly accept to fight and die for a system many of them believe is corrupt and rigged. Only USA intervention will tilt the balance for the west hence the panic among eastern european countries and baltics for the possible demise of Nato. You do not panic in front of a frog.

War with Turkey unlikely...it is a part of Nato, the USA will never allowed it (remember when it comes to real things in Europe ONLY WASHINGTON matters despite all the bragging of european leaders) also Erdogan plays the bad guy to gain more money and concessions in his fight against the kurds he will never cross a red line with the west. More likely is a scenario with a war against Iran..... probably the only war in which Trump and his opponents agree....hence very likely.

Military budget unless there's a structural technological gap is not a good indicator otherwise we would not have had the well known outcome of Vietnam Afghanistan ( both for russian and american) Iraq, Syria.

Just 2 things:
- nobody is wanting to dismantle Russia. For obvious reasons: Russia is good at controling a wide space in Eurasia.
- you are reversing things: Western Europeans don't want war, nor conflict either with Russia or Turkey. But, if I remember correctly, what we want has nothing to do with what will happen, or what we will need to do. Turkey is a real problem, and NATO will not helping trying to find a solution. Anyway, in the next years, a dilemna will appear given what is happening in Turkey: either NATO will cease to exist, or Turkey will be out (pushed or more likely, will take the door). Conflict with Russia is already there, if not militarly. But, you can bet that Putin will use the Russian minorities in the Baltic countries to try to gain some territories and have a direct access to Kaliningrad. Too bad that Germany didn't bought it back 20 years ago when the deal was possible (just because Poland was too afraid to have Germany there).

By the way, my answer about budget and technology was to highlight the limits of Russia. Nothing else. It's obvious that if Russia try to invade UE, the cost will be one hundred times the one of Afghanistan. Russia has only a population of 140 millions. A third of UE, without UK.

Russia is a frog if UE is united. Obviously, it's a bull if Baltic countries don't have support. By the way, I should say an ox rather than a bull. The reference would have been better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frog_and_the_Ox

etrusco
06-30-2018, 06:44 PM
Just 2 things:
- nobody is wanting to dismantle Russia. For obvious reasons: Russia is good at controling a wide space in Eurasia.
- you are reversing things: Western Europeans don't want war, nor conflict either with Russia or Turkey. But, if I remember correctly, what we want has nothing to do with what will happen, or what we will need to do. Turkey is a real problem, and NATO will not helping trying to find a solution. Anyway, in the next years, a dilemna will appear given what is happening in Turkey: either NATO will cease to exist, or Turkey will be out (pushed or more likely, will take the door). Conflict with Russia is already there, if not militarly. But, you can bet that Putin will use the Russian minorities in the Baltic countries to try to gain some territories and have a direct access to Kaliningrad. Too bad that Germany didn't bought it back 20 years ago when the deal was possible (just because Poland was too afraid to have Germany there).

By the way, my answer about budget and technology was to highlight the limits of Russia. Nothing else. It's obvious that if Russia try to invade UE, the cost will be one hundred times the one of Afghanistan. Russia has only a population of 140 millions. A third of UE, without UK.

Russia is a frog if UE is united. Obviously, it's a bull if Baltic countries don't have support. By the way, I should say an ox rather than a bull. The reference would have been better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frog_and_the_Ox

On technicalities we can agree or disagree but that does not matter what is dear to me is this: please do not believe mainstream media that say Putin wants to attack or weaken the west....his main goal is to have Russia being respected and considered by western leaders for what it really is: a superpower with its own sphere of influence ( BTW why to scandalize if Ukraine is part of the sphere of influence of Russia? or at least neutral? )....believe me it is nothing more than that. But western leaders do not agree and consider Russia a junior partner ( if a partner at all). Try to always humiliate the russian people and its leaders is not wise and by the way even more is not right. The only consequences of this policy by the west is to push Russia even more towards China. Not a good move indeed. That is why Trump and the part of the establishment that helped him to get elected try to have better relationship with Putin because they think that the real menace comes from China.

jdean
06-30-2018, 06:56 PM
Whilst this is interesting I don't think anybody can disagree the conversation is actually moving even further away from the topic of the thread than arguing the toss of the possibility of P312 originating in Spain, which is quite a feat to be fair.

Kopfjäger
06-30-2018, 08:07 PM
Whilst this is interesting I don't think anybody can disagree the conversation is actually moving even further away from the topic of the thread than arguing the toss of the possibility of P312 originating in Spain, which is quite a feat to be fair.

Speaking of P312, any news of that study that purportedly found it in Russia?

jdean
06-30-2018, 08:12 PM
Speaking of P312, any news of that study that purportedly found it in Russia?

I wish : )))

etrusco
06-30-2018, 08:26 PM
I wish : )))

I think that if R1b P-312 would have been found in Samara valley the news would have filtered out more massively on blogs and newspapers considering that it is really a big nail in the coffin for many discussions about IE. Also many are skeptical about R1b p-312 being that old: last quarter of the Vth millennium :unsure:

jdean
06-30-2018, 08:30 PM
I think that if R1b P-312 would have been found in Samara valley the news would have filtered out more massively on blogs and newspapers considering that it is really a big nail in the coffin for many discussions about IE. Also many are skeptical about R1b p-312 being that old: last quarter of the Vth millennium :unsure:

Yeah but I'm willing to suspend disbelief in this case, I'll deal with the disappointment later : )

Of course it could be the dating that's a bit screwy.

peternorth
07-01-2018, 07:30 AM
Just 2 things:
- nobody is wanting to dismantle Russia. For obvious reasons: Russia is good at controling a wide space in Eurasia.
- you are reversing things: Western Europeans don't want war, nor conflict either with Russia or Turkey. But, if I remember correctly, what we want has nothing to do with what will happen, or what we will need to do. Turkey is a real problem, and NATO will not helping trying to find a solution. Anyway, in the next years, a dilemna will appear given what is happening in Turkey: either NATO will cease to exist, or Turkey will be out (pushed or more likely, will take the door). Conflict with Russia is already there, if not militarly. But, you can bet that Putin will use the Russian minorities in the Baltic countries to try to gain some territories and have a direct access to Kaliningrad. Too bad that Germany didn't bought it back 20 years ago when the deal was possible (just because Poland was too afraid to have Germany there).

By the way, my answer about budget and technology was to highlight the limits of Russia. Nothing else. It's obvious that if Russia try to invade UE, the cost will be one hundred times the one of Afghanistan. Russia has only a population of 140 millions. A third of UE, without UK.

Russia is a frog if UE is united. Obviously, it's a bull if Baltic countries don't have support. By the way, I should say an ox rather than a bull. The reference would have been better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frog_and_the_Ox



Sorry, I don't like politics infecting anthropological threads as much as anyone else, but surely the *real* threat to France is much closer to home.

Namely, the undeniable *fact* that France will certainly be majority non-European by genetic descent sometime this century, and possibly majority Muslim by faith.
The events of 2015/16 makes one ponder.

dsm
07-01-2018, 07:53 AM
Nice diversion - Euro-politics is an interesting topic (black hole in a way) but, please please can we get back on the purpose of the thread?. Pretty please?.

Thanks

D