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GASKA
08-21-2018, 10:13 AM
The thing I don't get about some of the supporters of the Iberian origin for the BBs is the emotional connection, I see this a lot amongst other Iberians (mostly Spanish, although to be fair I don't see as many Portuguese people posting, so the my sample is biased).
If deep down there is an autochthonous bias, it really shouldn't be in favour of the non-steppe Iberian BBs. Checking some simple models for the Portuguese, for example, we get:


Portuguese - scaled Global 25/nMonte

Barcin_N 54.2
Yamnaya_Samara 29.8
WHG 10.8
Iberomaurusian 5.3
Levant_N 0.0
Yoruba 0.0


Portuguese - Davidski's qpAdm

Caucasus_HG 0.0
Lengyel_LN 59.3
Nganasan 2.0
Onge 1.0
Steppe_EBA 30.6
Western_HG 3.8
Yoruba 3.3

Obviously the Eastern BBs who arrived in Iberia weren't full steppe, but rather around 40-50%, so basically around half of modern Iberian ancestry from 2500BCE-ish is traced back not to the non-steppe Iberian BBs, but to Central Euro BBs. If they/we had to have a bias towards the majority of our ancestors, shouldn't it be towards the "foreigners"? Or at least 50/50


Personally I don't really care where the package came from, it's not like I'm them, nor I had anything to do with it anyway


Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying Iberians who support the Iberian hypothesis have an emotional bias.
I'm just questioning whether those who do are actually placing it on the right folks

One of the problems that the pages of genetics have, is that everyone talks about Iberia as a whole, when we should clearly differentiate between Spanish and Portuguese. You have a genetic composition more similar to the Asturians and Galicians who repopulated Portugal, while the rest of Spain has different genetic components. We are brothers, but since the independence of Portugal, we have followed different paths and developed different genetic peculiarities. That is, we can talk about Iberian ancestry, but it is incorrect, we should talk about Basque, Castilian or Portuguese ancestry. The movements of the male population in the last 2.000 years are much larger than we imagined, and except in exceptional cases it's very difficult to relate the current population with the one that existed in those regions in prehistoric times.

Ruderico
08-21-2018, 10:50 AM
Please, as if the difference between Spanish and Portuguese is significant on a general European scale, there's a reason most people doing these things group them together.
I just used that example because it was the one I had more at hand and matters the most to me, I never said it's absolutely representative of all Iberians.

GASKA
08-21-2018, 11:03 AM
Please, as if the difference between Spanish and Portuguese is significant on an general European scale, there's a reason most people doing these things group them together.
I just used that example because it was the one I had more at hand and matters the most to me, I never said it's absolutely representative of all Iberians.

Of course, it's not representative of all Iberians, you have to focus in the Portuguese population, and we will focus in the Spanish. And by the way, there have never been political or nationalist intentions in our defense og the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312 and subclades. Time will tell who is right.

Ruderico
08-21-2018, 11:24 AM
you have to focus in the Portuguese population, and we will focus in the Spanish.

I don't "have" to, I just decided to do so on this particular post for simplicity's sake because, as I have said, the differences within Iberia aren't really significant on the scale we generally use here - except for the Basques, whom I presume you're one of. Most of the times the Portuguese samples aren't even used because their difference from (west) Spanish subgroups ie. Galicia, Extremadura and even Asturias (when used) is not relevant enough, and that's understandable eventhough my patriotic side feels a bit bruised by it.

Anyway, I'd find it somewhat silly to just focus on Portuguese and not the obviously-very-closely-related-but-even-larger group next to it

ADW_1981
08-21-2018, 11:25 AM
Of course, it's not representative of all Iberians, you have to focus in the Portuguese population, and we will focus in the Spanish. And by the way, there have never been political or nationalist intentions in our defense og the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312 and subclades. Time will tell who is right.

You aren't important. You are just one of many populations rich in P312+, get over yourself.

rms2
08-21-2018, 11:53 AM
. . . And by the way, there have never been political or nationalist intentions in our defense og the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312 and subclades. Time will tell who is right.

It already has told.

No offense, but your persistence in defending the clearly obsolete idea of "the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312 and subclades", puts me in mind of Hiroo Onoda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda).

GASKA
08-21-2018, 11:56 AM
You aren't important. You are just one of many populations rich in P312+, get over yourself.

To understand the origin and composition of P 312 and subclades the Iberian Peninsula in general and the Catalan Basques and Castilians in particular are very important. I dont think Canadians or Chinese are able to give us a solution to the enigma

rms2
08-21-2018, 12:01 PM
Well, there's a big paper coming from Reich and company on ancient Iberia, but he's already talked about how that's probably going to go. I won't quote him again, because I've already done so several times.

If Reich and his colleagues thought the evidence supported an FC origin for P312 and subclades, I think he would have talked about that rather than about 90% y-dna replacement.

Ruderico
08-21-2018, 12:07 PM
Well, there's a big paper coming from Reich and company on ancient Iberia

I'm starting to fear it isn't coming out that soon, I haven't read from it in quite a while. It may be the Rakhigarhi fear syndrome

rms2
08-21-2018, 12:12 PM
I'm starting to fear it isn't coming out that soon, I haven't read from it in quite a while. It may be the Rakhigarhi fear syndrome

I seem to recall a rumor that it will appear in September, but I don't know if that's right.

It should be really interesting, whenever it does appear.

GASKA
08-21-2018, 12:14 PM
It already has told.

No offense, but your persistence in defending the clearly obsolete idea of "the Franco-Cantabrian origin of P312 and subclades", puts me in mind of Hiroo Onoda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda).

No offense, you know we are very stubborn and we will only accept irrefutable evidence. Im glad you are still debating on vacation.

rms2
08-21-2018, 12:17 PM
No offense, you know we are very stubborn and we will only accept irrefutable evidence. Im glad you are still debating on vacation.

Yes, that's why I said you remind me of Hiroo Onoda. His commanding officer had to come to Lubang Island in 1974 and relieve him from duty to convince him World War II was over and Japan had lost.

GASKA
08-21-2018, 01:19 PM
Yes, that's why I said you remind me of Hiroo Onoda. His commanding officer had to come to Lubang Island in 1974 and relieve him from duty to convince him World War II was over and Japan had lost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia

Some things have not changed in the last 2.000 years. It's a pity that we don't know the Reich's data. I don't have news either, I have written to two collaborators of Olalde, but I have no answer yet.

I have been reading some posts and I agree with you that the primordial is the paternal lineage. A simple calculation allows us, to know that in only 15 generations (500 years), we have theoretically 32.768 ancestors, and only one of them has transmited us the Y chromosome. The others 32.767 ancestors, have contributed to a greater or lesser extent to our autosomal DNA, but it's impossible to find out which genetic characters come from each one of them. In Spain, the nobility is only transmitted by paternal line (I suppose it will be the same in the Anglo-saxon countries), and currently genetic is contributing to the identification of noble lineages. Of course, nobody will lose a noble title if it turns out that he descends from moors or jews, but those people will no longer be technically "noble".

Romilius
08-21-2018, 04:06 PM
No offense, you know we are very stubborn and we will only accept irrefutable evidence. Im glad you are still debating on vacation.

We? You and... who? the Holy Ghost?

Romilius
08-21-2018, 04:10 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Numantia

Some things have not changed in the last 2.000 years. It's a pity that we don't know the Reich's data. I don't have news either, I have written to two collaborators of Olalde, but I have no answer yet.

I have been reading some posts and I agree with you that the primordial is the paternal lineage. A simple calculation allows us, to know that in only 15 generations (500 years), we have theoretically 32.768 ancestors, and only one of them has transmited us the Y chromosome. The others 32.767 ancestors, have contributed to a greater or lesser extent to our autosomal DNA, but it's impossible to find out which genetic characters come from each one of them. In Spain, the nobility is only transmitted by paternal line (I suppose it will be the same in the Anglo-saxon countries), and currently genetic is contributing to the identification of noble lineages. Of course, nobody will lose a noble title if it turns out that he descends from moors or jews, but those people will no longer be technically "noble".

You don't know much about nobility. There were and are many ways to bestow nobility titles.

Isidro
08-21-2018, 04:21 PM
Romilius said, We?...

Me for starters, and you have a blind spot that comprises half a billion people considered Hispanic or Iberian descent you are a lot more ignorant of the culture dynamics than I thought.

Not all agree but I can assure you not all would consider you and your "manada"hazy points as facts.

Romilius
08-21-2018, 04:24 PM
Romilius said, We?...

Me for starters, and you you have a blind spot that comprises half a billion people considered Hispanic or Iberian descent you are a lot more ignorant of the culture dynamics than I thought.

Not all agree but I can assure you not all would consider you and your "manada"hazy points as facts.

What?

If you are referring to things I wrote, please, good taste would suggest to quote the exact point.

Isidro
08-21-2018, 04:29 PM
Maybe I can translate it to you if English is not your native language, otherwise I think you got my point.


What?

If you are referring to things I wrote, please, good taste would suggest to quote the exact point.

Ruderico
08-21-2018, 06:13 PM
Crikey, people get really defensive when it comes to this topic

GASKA
08-21-2018, 06:48 PM
We? You and... who? the Holy Ghost?

Not only the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Trinity, because WE Spaniards are the chosen people of God.

Idwaajeden
08-21-2018, 06:50 PM
Not only the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Trinity, because WE Spaniards are the chosen people of God.

Ladino ting alie

GASKA
08-21-2018, 06:52 PM
You don't know much about nobility. There were and are many ways to bestow nobility titles.

I know everything about the nobility in Spain and all the territories that belonged to the Spanish Empire, including Naples, Lombardy, Sicily and Sardinia.

Webb
08-21-2018, 06:56 PM
This really escalated quickly.

Webb
08-21-2018, 06:59 PM
Not only the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Trinity, because WE Spaniards are the chosen people of God.

How did you guys get chosen? Is there an application process involved? You probably have a tight resume!!!

GASKA
08-21-2018, 07:10 PM
How did you guys get chosen? Is there an application process involved? You probably have a tight resume!!!

It's very simple, you just have to believe in it. As it is said in my land. Jaun Goikoa eta Lege Zarra.

MikeWhalen
08-21-2018, 07:13 PM
Bwhhaaaahaaaa
best line of the day Webb



How did you guys get chosen? Is there an application process involved? You probably have a tight resume!!!

Mike

Ruderico
08-21-2018, 08:09 PM
Not only the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Trinity, because WE Spaniards are the chosen people of God.


I know everything about the nobility in Spain and all the territories that belonged to the Spanish Empire, including Naples, Lombardy, Sicily and Sardinia.

Sorry, but it's starting to stench of trolling, and it's ruining the thread quality

rms2
08-21-2018, 08:48 PM
Not only the Holy Ghost, but the Holy Trinity, because WE Spaniards are the chosen people of God.

Maybe, but evidently He chose to revise the y-dna Iberia had during the Neolithic and construct His Spanish chosen people starting with a steppe-based y-dna replacement of about 90%.

razyn
08-21-2018, 09:14 PM
The Neolithic male lineages of Iberia, and the rest of western Europe, were largely replaced in the Bronze Age. So it's us steppe guys whose having been "chosen" can be demonstrated by the short-term Empires of various subsequent European nobilities, here and there. To people who believe in that sort of thing, as distinguished from genetic evidence.

anglesqueville
08-21-2018, 10:15 PM
How did you guys get chosen? Is there an application process involved? You probably have a tight resume!!!

If there is an informatic application, I doubt that I have enough RAM on my system. Btw I did'nt come for weeks on this thread, and I must say that it's always a pleasure :biggrin1:

Romilius
08-22-2018, 06:25 AM
I know everything about the nobility in Spain and all the territories that belonged to the Spanish Empire, including Naples, Lombardy, Sicily and Sardinia.

No, you don't. And your previous post said all the thing.

There were many nobles with roots also in non-Christian nobility.

Romilius
08-22-2018, 06:28 AM
Sorry, but it's starting to stench of trolling, and it's ruining the thread quality

And Isidro gives fuel to the troll...

I'm starting to get upset by those Spanish nationalists blind in front of their stubborness. And, yes: the best way they have to get away with stubborness is to denounce others to be stubborn.

Romilius
08-22-2018, 06:30 AM
It's very simple, you just have to believe in it. As it is said in my land. Jaun Goikoa eta Lege Zarra.

Oh, great: I believe to be Bill Gates... Now I check my bank account... damn it!

GASKA
08-22-2018, 07:35 AM
No, you don't. And your previous post said all the thing.

There were many nobles with roots also in non-Christian nobility.

It would be an interesting debate to talk to you about the nobility in Europe. I suppose you know that money often managed to hide the unclean roots of many lineages of the high nobility. However, the low nobility (hidalgos) had to demonstrate convincingly that they were old christians, and as you know the Holy Inquisition was implacable. The peasants and the people of the north never had to prove anything because the blood cleansing was evident. Thank God this is a debate that Spaniards and other Europeans overcome centuries ago.

GASKA
08-22-2018, 07:49 AM
Oh, great: I believe to be Bill Gates... Now I check my bank account... damn it!

I see that you don¡t the mentality of a XVII century Spaniard. The only explanation that had the fact of conquering the New World, was that we were the chosen people to spread the Catholic faith to the infidels. Of course, this was an excuse, because we have to admit that we were also moved by the Glory, and above all, the money. God, Gold and Glory. I thought you would want to be Gandhi, Mandela or Mother Teresa. Faith moves mountains

GASKA
08-22-2018, 07:54 AM
And Isidro gives fuel to the troll...

I'm starting to get upset by those Spanish nationalists blind in front of their stubborness. And, yes: the best way they have to get away with stubborness is to denounce others to be stubborn.

The strategy of accusing others of a crime you have committed is as old as the history of mankind. If you review your posts in this thread you will realize what I'm talking about.

GASKA
08-22-2018, 08:11 AM
Sorry, but it's starting to stench of trolling, and it's ruining the thread quality

For me it would very interesting to know your opinion about the Portuguese Chalcolithic, because I think that the data that we know are scarce and little clarifying. Don`t be angry because I tell you not to generalize when talking about Iberia, The quality of this thread will be demonstrated by the contributions that each one makes, beacuse there are people who limit themselves to call trolls to others, when their knowledge of the European chalcolithic is simply a joke. On the other hand, the stuary of the Tagus is key to understanding the origin of the BB culture, I suppose you will proud of it.

GASKA
08-22-2018, 08:19 AM
Maybe, but evidently He chose to revise the y-dna Iberia had during the Neolithic and construct His Spanish chosen people starting with a steppe-based y-dna replacement of about 90%.

Yes, all started probably in the steppes, and I have already told you that we are very proud of our ancestors whatever their origin. R1b-P312 has to be proud of all his descendants because they had reached the farthest places on earth. Who was going to tell the horsemen of the steppes, that their descendants would take those horses to America, Asia and Africa?

GASKA
08-22-2018, 08:38 AM
The Neolithic male lineages of Iberia, and the rest of western Europe, were largely replaced in the Bronze Age. So it's us steppe guys whose having been "chosen" can be demonstrated by the short-term Empires of various subsequent European nobilities, here and there. To people who believe in that sort of thing, as distinguished from genetic evidence.

I guess you understand "Bronze Age" like us, that is the period between 2.000-1.000 BC. Here we all agree, the Spanish burials are overhelmingly R1b-P312. We only need to prove the entry of P312 in Iberia, if finally we don't find anything before 2.300 BC, we will have to recognize our origin in the steppes. I suppose you will continue to be proud of your brothers chosen by God to conquer the world.

GASKA
08-22-2018, 08:40 AM
Etrusco, I'm very sorry for what happened in Genoa. We pray for the victims. Un saludo

Dewsloth
08-22-2018, 03:54 PM
However, the low nobility (hidalgos) had to demonstrate convincingly that they were old christians, and as you know the Holy Inquisition was implacable. The peasants and the people of the north never had to prove anything because the blood cleansing was evident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4

etrusco
08-22-2018, 04:13 PM
Etrusco, I'm very sorry for what happened in Genoa. We pray for the victims. Un saludo


Thank you….speaking about the past….our ancients in Italy and elsewhere built more resilient bridges!
Saludo.

rms2
08-23-2018, 01:05 AM
I guess you understand "Bronze Age" like us, that is the period between 2.000-1.000 BC. Here we all agree, the Spanish burials are overhelmingly R1b-P312. We only need to prove the entry of P312 in Iberia, if finally we don't find anything before 2.300 BC, we will have to recognize our origin in the steppes. I suppose you will continue to be proud of your brothers chosen by God to conquer the world.

Reich already gave us the answer to that in his recent book, Who We Are and How We Got Here. After all, I believe it's his lab that is behind the big Iberia paper all of us are awaiting. Sorry to quote him again, but Reich said the following on pages 239-240:



The descendants of the Yamnaya or their close relatives spread their Y chromosomes into Europe and India, and the demographic impact of this expansion was profound, as the Y-chromosome types they carried were absent in Europe and India before the Bronze Age but are predominant in both places today.25

This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

I think Reich knows the Iberian results already (he said he does), and he did say the "Y-chromosome type of steppe origin" responsible for that 90% y-dna replacement in Iberia "was absent in Iberia prior to that time", that time being "at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago".

Really, I think it's a done deal.

Romilius
08-23-2018, 05:53 AM
It would be an interesting debate to talk to you about the nobility in Europe. I suppose you know that money often managed to hide the unclean roots of many lineages of the high nobility. However, the low nobility (hidalgos) had to demonstrate convincingly that they were old christians, and as you know the Holy Inquisition was implacable. The peasants and the people of the north never had to prove anything because the blood cleansing was evident. Thank God this is a debate that Spaniards and other Europeans overcome centuries ago.

It depends upon the age. For example, in the XVIII century it was fashionable to exalt some exotic ancestors.

The hidalgos were peculiar only to Spain and Portugal... and there were many differences between a spanish hidalgo and a portuguese fidalgo. A hidalgo wasn't a peer, in the pan-european menaning.

And the bolded sentence isn't completely true: there were many infiltrations by moors in Northern reigns... and there were many Basque and Germanic traitors during centuries who passed under muslim rulers.

Bollox79
08-23-2018, 06:29 AM
I see this thread is as lively as usual ;-p. A bit off topic (though not too far off - U106 being P312's brother group etc!), but figured a good place to drop it since there always seems to be activity here: we have more U106+ in Germanic Migration period burials! At least 6 burials in the small cemetery of Niederstotzingen (out of roughly of nine or ten male samples - there were a couple juvenile and a single and double horse grave in there) are U106+, L48+ and Z319+. Note that "Longobard" SZ 11 from Szolad in Hungary is also Z319 ;-). Come on over to the "Two Alamanni in 36k and PCA" where we have been discussing it ;-).

Edit: Additionally per Alex W. analysis - all U106+ men in this site belong to Z319 (and a few for more SNPs below that were positive) = good chance these guys are a male kinship group like we assumed we would see in a patriarchal(?!?) society like the Germanic migration tribes etc...

GASKA
08-23-2018, 07:30 AM
Quality?... Are you kidding?.The only thing I see is verbal bullies getting annoyed by intellect. After all no one has found the P312 rossetta stone.

Bien dicho Isidro. Un saludo

GASKA
08-23-2018, 08:26 AM
Thank you….speaking about the past….our ancients in Italy and elsewhere built more resilient bridges!
Saludo.

25439

Alcantara Bridge over the Tagus river. Architect Gaius Julius Lacer. Two thousands years of history contemplate him. I truly doubt if in Europe we are advancing or retreating. We just have to get the politicians to do their job well.

The soldiers of the Old Tercios said- Spain my nature, Italy my fortune and Flanders my burial- "España mi natura, Italia mi ventura y Flandes mi sepultura".

rms2
08-23-2018, 06:36 PM
This is wonderful, after the genious theories of the John Smith Kurgan Bell Beaker culture , and the Theory of the Simmilarity (that means that European prehistoric ceramics are practically indistinguishable) . . .

Baffling. First Olalde et al told us they couldn't find any steppe dna or R1b-M269 in Iberia prior to around 2500 BC and that the two went hand-in-hand. Then Reich tells us his lab and Dan Bradley's lab, working independently, have even more ancient Iberian genomes that say the same thing and that the advent of the Bronze Age around 4500-4000 years ago witnessed a 90% replacement of Iberian Neolithic y-dna with y-dna of steppe origin.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the genious theories of the John Smith Kurgan Bell Beaker culture", but it sounds like you're trying to mock something that you should instead be trying to understand.

The idea that P312 arose in Iberia is no longer reasonable. Like I said a few posts back, it's a done deal.

GASKA
08-24-2018, 07:44 AM
Baffling. First Olalde et al told us they couldn't find any steppe dna or R1b-M269 in Iberia prior to around 2500 BC and that the two went hand-in-hand. Then Reich tells us his lab and Dan Bradley's lab, working independently, have even more ancient Iberian genomes that say the same thing and that the advent of the Bronze Age around 4500-4000 years ago witnessed a 90% replacement of Iberian Neolithic y-dna with y-dna of steppe origin.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the genious theories of the John Smith Kurgan Bell Beaker culture", but it sounds like you're trying to mock something that you should instead be trying to understand.

The idea that P312 arose in Iberia is no longer reasonable. Like I said a few posts back, it's a done deal.

I was referring to Romilius' theories in previous posts. I don't think they get the recognition of the international scientific community.

P312 in Western Europe is not a done deal. The debate and research has only just begun, and most of the evidence points to a Western or at least Central European origin of our haplogroup. You are an intelligent man and I am a good lawyer, if we had to convince a Judge of an oriental origin of P312, we would have to look for many more proofs of what you have. All indications point in the opposite direction.

1.- Absolute demographic, technological, cultural and commercial superiority of the chalcolithic societies of Western Europe with respect to the cultures of the steppes. When I speak of Western Europe, I also speak of Italy and Remedello culture for example.

2.- There is no archeological evidence of violent conquests carried out by the horsemen of the steppes, all those chalcolithic societies disappeared due to climatic causes (extreme drought). To think that the nomadic shepherds of Ukraine or Russia were going to be able to conquer and repopulate all of Europe is a fantasy.

3.- Practically all the BB package existed in Western Europe and italy PRIOR to its archaelogical observation in the steppes. We have already talked many times about this.

4.- Different metallurgical techniques in Western Europe with respect to the Balkans and the steppes (there was NO transmission of metallurgical knowledge), meaning that, if there was invasion, the sheperds left their weapons at home.

5.- Persistence of NON-Indoeuropean languages throughout Europe until the Roman conquest. Special case is the Iberian peninsula where the Basque and Iberian languages were spoken by the majority of the population at the time of the conquest. It's strange to think that the invaders left their language, certainly the conquerors have never done such a thing throughout the history of mankind.

6.- Archaelogical demostration of the trade routes of the European Atlantic coast and the Mediterranean sea (trade with Asia and Africa).

7.- Undisputed origin of BB culture in the stuary of the Tagus- 2.800 BC.

8.- Indisputable extension by sea of this culture, trade with Britanny, Normandy,, Sicily, French mediterranean coast, northern Italy and Switzerland.

9.- Archaelogical evidence of Iberian migrants in Switzerland, Germany and the British isles (2.500-2.000 BC), including Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups.

10- LACK of genetic data regarding the French, Italian and Spanish Chalcolithic, with very few deposists analyzed.

11.- THe oldest R1b-P312 has been found in Sierentz (France), its also exists in Holland (2.350 BC), Spain (2.275 BC) and Italy (2.100 BC).

12.- Closeness of the haplogroup brother R1b-U106 in Central Europe.

13.- NONEXISTENCE of P312 (and even L51) in the cultures of the steppes.

14.- NONEXISTENCE of Df27, L21 and U152 in the steppes. Frecuency in current oriental populations are ridiculous.

15.- Variability, antiquity and frequency of these haplogroups in Western Europe, indicate a western origin.

16.- Our oldest known ancestors have not been found in the steppes but in the Baltic countries (mesolithic hunter gatherers from Latvia).

17.- Yamnaya is a genetically hybrid culture, very influenced by the cultures of "Old Europe". It's maximum territorial expansion is the Hungarian plains.

Kopfjäger
08-24-2018, 02:01 PM
I was referring to Romilius' theories in previous posts. I don't think they get the recognition of the international scientific community.

P312 in Western Europe is not a done deal. The debate and research has only just begun, and most of the evidence points to a Western or at least Central European origin of our haplogroup. You are an intelligent man and I am a good lawyer, if we had to convince a Judge of an oriental origin of P312, we would have to look for many more proofs of what you have. All indications point in the opposite direction.

1.- Absolute demographic, technological, cultural and commercial superiority of the chalcolithic societies of Western Europe with respect to the cultures of the steppes. When I speak of Western Europe, I also speak of Italy and Remedello culture for example.

2.- There is no archeological evidence of violent conquests carried out by the horsemen of the steppes, all those chalcolithic societies disappeared due to climatic causes (extreme drought). To think that the nomadic shepherds of Ukraine or Russia were going to be able to conquer and repopulate all of Europe is a fantasy.

3.- Practically all the BB package existed in Western Europe and italy PRIOR to its archaelogical observation in the steppes. We have already talked many times about this.

4.- Different metallurgical techniques in Western Europe with respect to the Balkans and the steppes (there was NO transmission of metallurgical knowledge), meaning that, if there was invasion, the sheperds left their weapons at home.

5.- Persistence of NON-Indoeuropean languages throughout Europe until the Roman conquest. Special case is the Iberian peninsula where the Basque and Iberian languages were spoken by the majority of the population at the time of the conquest. It's strange to think that the invaders left their language, certainly the conquerors have never done such a thing throughout the history of mankind.

6.- Archaelogical demostration of the trade routes of the European Atlantic coast and the Mediterranean sea (trade with Asia and Africa).

7.- Undisputed origin of BB culture in the stuary of the Tagus- 2.800 BC.

8.- Indisputable extension by sea of this culture, trade with Britanny, Normandy,, Sicily, French mediterranean coast, northern Italy and Switzerland.

9.- Archaelogical evidence of Iberian migrants in Switzerland, Germany and the British isles (2.500-2.000 BC), including Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups.

10- LACK of genetic data regarding the French, Italian and Spanish Chalcolithic, with very few deposists analyzed.

11.- THe oldest R1b-P312 has been found in Sierentz (France), its also exists in Holland (2.350 BC), Spain (2.275 BC) and Italy (2.100 BC).

12.- Closeness of the haplogroup brother R1b-U106 in Central Europe.

13.- NONEXISTENCE of P312 (and even L51) in the cultures of the steppes.

14.- NONEXISTENCE of Df27, L21 and U152 in the steppes. Frecuency in current oriental populations are ridiculous.

15.- Variability, antiquity and frequency of these haplogroups in Western Europe, indicate a western origin.

16.- Our oldest known ancestors have not been found in the steppes but in the Baltic countries (mesolithic hunter gatherers from Latvia).

17.- Yamnaya is a genetically hybrid culture, very influenced by the cultures of "Old Europe". It's maximum territorial expansion is the Hungarian plains.

Gaska,

What would it take for you to agree with the prevailing theory regarding P312's steppic origins?

I have a feeling it's almost impossible. Since this is the case, I implore every one to move on and just accept that Gaska is not going to change his mind. It's no consequence anyway.

ADW_1981
08-24-2018, 02:08 PM
To understand the origin and composition of P 312 and subclades the Iberian Peninsula in general and the Catalan Basques and Castilians in particular are very important. I dont think Canadians or Chinese are able to give us a solution to the enigma

That might be true, but it certainly wouldn't be P312, or R1b at all for that matter. Maybe you'd rather bark up the I2 or G2 tree for your local origin.

rms2
08-24-2018, 02:38 PM
I was referring to Romilius' theories in previous posts. I don't think they get the recognition of the international scientific community.

P312 in Western Europe is not a done deal. The debate and research has only just begun, and most of the evidence points to a Western or at least Central European origin of our haplogroup. You are an intelligent man and I am a good lawyer, if we had to convince a Judge of an oriental origin of P312, we would have to look for many more proofs of what you have. All indications point in the opposite direction.

The debate and research have been going on for a long time, and all the indications point to a steppe origin for P312 or at least an origin among steppe-derived people, perhaps in east central Europe.

You seem to be totally disregarding what David Reich said in his book, and Reich knows what he is talking about and more than has yet been published. You are also ignoring the evidence from Olalde et al, as well as other recent papers featuring ancient dna evidence.



1.- Absolute demographic, technological, cultural and commercial superiority of the chalcolithic societies of Western Europe with respect to the cultures of the steppes. When I speak of Western Europe, I also speak of Italy and Remedello culture for example.

Yet somehow Europe experienced a massive genomic transformation with the arrival of steppe pastoralists in the third millennium BC. That is undeniable.



2.- There is no archeological evidence of violent conquests carried out by the horsemen of the steppes, all those chalcolithic societies disappeared due to climatic causes (extreme drought). To think that the nomadic shepherds of Ukraine or Russia were going to be able to conquer and repopulate all of Europe is a fantasy.

There is evidence of violence here and there that hints at a larger pattern. Pretty obviously, the archaeological record of the third millennium BC is not complete. Surely a combination factors made it possible for steppe pastoralists to have the impact they had, which resulted not only in the aforementioned genomic transformation of Europe but in its linguistic and cultural transformation, as well.

Those things are absolutely undeniable. Europe was transformed genetically, linguistically, and culturally by steppe pastoralists.



3.- Practically all the BB package existed in Western Europe and italy PRIOR to its archaelogical observation in the steppes. We have already talked many times about this.

No, it did not. That's simply not true. The reason Harrison and Heyd referred to the early Iberian BB ensemble as the "proto-package" is precisely because it did not contain all the elements of fully developed Bell Beaker, most of which were introduced from the East, along with steppe dna and R1b-M269.

Only someone willfully blind would say the things you are saying.



4.- Different metallurgical techniques in Western Europe with respect to the Balkans and the steppes (there was NO transmission of metallurgical knowledge), meaning that, if there was invasion, the sheperds left their weapons at home.

Copper working existed in Iberia before the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. How and when copper working got there is not the issue.



5.- Persistence of NON-Indoeuropean languages throughout Europe until the Roman conquest. Special case is the Iberian peninsula where the Basque and Iberian languages were spoken by the majority of the population at the time of the conquest. It's strange to think that the invaders left their language, certainly the conquerors have never done such a thing throughout the history of mankind.

Prove that non-IE languages were spoken by the majority of people in the Iberian peninsula at the time of the Roman Conquest. There were quite a few Italo-Celtic speakers there long before the Romans arrived.

The Basques had a matrilocal marriage tradition that led to the introduction of outsider dna, especially y-dna, while it enabled the preservation of their language. Their high frequency of R1b-DF27 today is the consequence of millennia of admixture with their IE neighbors. Probably the original Basque y-dna profile was very heavy in I2a and had no R1b-M269 at all.

Take for example the early Iberian BB samples from the Basque country reported in Lipson et al (2017). No R1b and no steppe dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b




6.- Archaelogical demostration of the trade routes of the European Atlantic coast and the Mediterranean sea (trade with Asia and Africa).

Irrelevant.



7.- Undisputed origin of BB culture in the stuary of the Tagus- 2.800 BC.

Undisputed? You must be joking. The origin of the Bell Beaker culture is one of the most disputed things in archaeology and prehistory.

Besides, even if one accepts your claim, we clearly have two different kinds of BB people, with two different kinds of cultures with actually very little in common. It was the Kurgan Bell Beaker culture from east central Europe that spread by migration of actual people, even as far as Iberia, where it was transformative, genetically, linguistically, and culturally.



8.- Indisputable extension by sea of this culture, trade with Britanny, Normandy,, Sicily, French mediterranean coast, northern Italy and Switzerland.

Extension of aspects of the culture, mainly pots, perhaps, but clearly the Kurgan Bell Beaker culture was spread by steppe-derived people from east central Europe.



9.- Archaelogical evidence of Iberian migrants in Switzerland, Germany and the British isles (2.500-2.000 BC), including Iberian mitochondrial haplogroups.

Hardly. Olalde et al made it clear they could not detect any significant Iberian dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker, so apparently Iberian input was either non-existent or extremely limited.

In her doctoral dissertation, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula, Christina Roth showed there was no mtDNA connection between Iberia and central European (Kurgan) Bell Beaker.

From pages 147-8:



. . . Thus, while genetic influences from Portugal and Africa on the Iberian Bell Beaker hint at origins in or influences from those regions, concordant with certain archaeological models (see chapter 12.1.5), genetic links between Western and Central European Bell Beaker cannot be detected. Genetic evidence available so far can therefore dismiss an Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker phenomenon with demic distribution into Central Europe – at least on mitochondrial level; one will have to await what Y-chromosomal or autosomal ancient DNA data will show.


We no longer have to wait for what the y chromosomal or autosomal ancient dna data will show. Olalde et al have shown, and Reich says he and Dan Bradley have many more ancient Iberian samples that show the same thing.



10- LACK of genetic data regarding the French, Italian and Spanish Chalcolithic, with very few deposists analyzed.

We have a growing library of such results, and Reich said he has even more, and they don't reverse the trend.



11.- THe oldest R1b-P312 has been found in Sierentz (France), its also exists in Holland (2.350 BC), Spain (2.275 BC) and Italy (2.100 BC).

Not true. I4144 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt in Germany is C14 dated to 2572-2512 BC.

I am not sure why you would cite I1390 from Sierentz anyway. He had steppe dna and was buried with arrowheads of which Olalde et al said, ". . . the arrow points seem to suggest an Oriental tradition of the European Bell Beakers" (Supplementary Information, page 22).



12.- Closeness of the haplogroup brother R1b-U106 in Central Europe.

Not sure what that does for you. U106 hasn't been found in western or central Europe before the Bronze Age either. The oldest ancient U106 thus far found comes from a Nordic Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden c. 2300 BC.



13.- NONEXISTENCE of P312 (and even L51) in the cultures of the steppes.

"Non-existence" is incorrect. They haven't been found there yet, unless Reich has some such samples that just haven't been published yet, which might explain his confidence in referring to R1b-P312 as "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin".

Perhaps "NONPUBLICATION" would be better (retaining your use of caps and avoidance of a hyphen).

P312 and L51 have not been found in western or central Europe before the Bronze Age or without steppe dna, as well. When they do turn up, they do so in a steppe-derived culture (Kurgan Bell Beaker). They also turn up at the time the Indo-Europeanization of Europe was taking place and in a culture to which the spread of early Italo-Celtic has been attributed.



14.- NONEXISTENCE of Df27, L21 and U152 in the steppes. Frecuency in current oriental populations are ridiculous.

See my response to your #13 above. Regarding modern frequency in the east: Don't be silly. People moved, and a lot has happened since the third millennium BC.



15.- Variability, antiquity and frequency of these haplogroups in Western Europe, indicate a western origin.

Said a lot of people before ancient dna testing became viable. Now we know better.



16.- Our oldest known ancestors have not been found in the steppes but in the Baltic countries (mesolithic hunter gatherers from Latvia).

Groan. It's a pain to have to deal with the same old chestnuts again and again.

Latvia is in eastern Europe. There are Russian river valleys that lead to the Baltic and to Latvia. Eastern HG's could have easily wandered down those valleys to wind up in Latvia.

The oldest of those Latvian R1b-P297s dates to about 7500 BC. YFull dates the mrca of P297 to about 11350 BC. So P297 had already been around for over 3000 years before that hunter-gatherer died.



17.- Yamnaya is a genetically hybrid culture, very influenced by the cultures of "Old Europe". It's maximum territorial expansion is the Hungarian plains.

Yamnaya spawned successor cultures, like Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker. Kurgan Bell Beaker continued the advance of Indo-European language and culture to the Atlantic. You're not going to try to deny that, are you?

Gimbutas derived Kurgan Bell Beaker from Yamnaya, and so do Harrison and Heyd.

This qpGraph appeared on 31 May 2018 at the Eurogenes Blog.

25449

GASKA
08-24-2018, 04:13 PM
That might be true, but it certainly wouldn't be P312, or R1b at all for that matter. Maybe you'd rather bark up the I2 or G2 tree for your local origin.

No thanks, I'm very proud of our common haplogroup. We don't have the same idea of our origin, but this doen't mean that I prefer to be I2 or G2. It's as if I told you that you prefer to be N, because you think we have origin in the steppes, or Q because you live in America. I'm a Western European R1b-P312-Df27, and I'm very proud of my ancestors, even if they turn out to be horsemen of the steppes.

GASKA
08-24-2018, 04:35 PM
Gaska,

What would it take for you to agree with the prevailing theory regarding P312's steppic origins?

I have a feeling it's almost impossible. Since this is the case, I implore every one to move on and just accept that Gaska is not going to change his mind. It's no consequence anyway.

Until L51, P312 or df27 appear in the steppes (eastern Europe) I will not change my mind. There are important Spanish geneticists who think the same as me, others like Olalde don't, and many of them are Basques like me. The important thing is to debate and convince, if absolutely all of us accept the official theses, the genetics would be very boring. I hope you forgive me for disagreeing with you.

Token
08-24-2018, 05:35 PM
No, it did not. That's simply not true. The reason Harrison and Heyd referred to the early Iberian BB ensemble as the "proto-package" is precisely because it did not contain all the elements of fully developed Bell Beaker, most of which were introduced from the East, along with steppe dna and R1b-M269.

Can you cite some examples of these elements? In a strictly archeological sense, i don't see anything 'steppe' about 'Kurgan' Bell Beaker, despite them having more than half of their ancestry derived from Yamnaya. If BB and CWC were really derived from Yamnaya (which is almost certainly the case), there seems to be a huge discontinuity between them and their common ancestor.

GASKA
08-24-2018, 06:03 PM
The debate and research have been going on for a long time, and all the indications point to a steppe origin for P312 or at least an origin among steppe-derived people, perhaps in east central Europe.

You seem to be totally disregarding what David Reich said in his book, and Reich knows what he is talking about and more than has yet been published. You are also ignoring the evidence from Olalde et al, as well as other recent papers featuring ancient dna evidence.



Yet somehow Europe experienced a massive genomic transformation with the arrival of steppe pastoralists in the third millennium BC. That is undeniable.



There is evidence of violence here and there that hints at a larger pattern. Pretty obviously, the archaeological record of the third millennium BC is not complete. Surely a combination factors made it possible for steppe pastoralists to have the impact they had, which resulted not only in the aforementioned genomic transformation of Europe but in its linguistic and cultural transformation, as well.

Those things are absolutely undeniable. Europe was transformed genetically, linguistically, and culturally by steppe pastoralists.



No, it did not. That's simply not true. The reason Harrison and Heyd referred to the early Iberian BB ensemble as the "proto-package" is precisely because it did not contain all the elements of fully developed Bell Beaker, most of which were introduced from the East, along with steppe dna and R1b-M269.

Only someone willfully blind would say the things you are saying.



Copper working existed in Iberia before the arrival of the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. How and when copper working got there is not the issue.



Prove that non-IE languages were spoken by the majority of people in the Iberian peninsula at the time of the Roman Conquest. There were quite a few Italo-Celtic speakers there long before the Romans arrived.

The Basques had a matrilocal marriage tradition that led to the introduction of outsider dna, especially y-dna, while it enabled the preservation of their language. Their high frequency of R1b-DF27 today is the consequence of millennia of admixture with their IE neighbors. Probably the original Basque y-dna profile was very heavy in I2a and had no R1b-M269 at all.

Take for example the early Iberian BB samples from the Basque country reported in Lipson et al (2017). No R1b and no steppe dna:

I1976 2571-2347 calBCE Y-DNA: I2 mtDNA: H3

I2473 2916-2714 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: H3

I2467 2481-2212 calBCE Y-DNA: I2a2a mtDNA: X2b




Irrelevant.



Undisputed? You must be joking. The origin of the Bell Beaker culture is one of the most disputed things in archaeology and prehistory.

Besides, even if one accepts your claim, we clearly have two different kinds of BB people, with two different kinds of cultures with actually very little in common. It was the Kurgan Bell Beaker culture from east central Europe that spread by migration of actual people, even as far as Iberia, where it was transformative, genetically, linguistically, and culturally.



Extension of aspects of the culture, mainly pots, perhaps, but clearly the Kurgan Bell Beaker culture was spread by steppe-derived people from east central Europe.



Hardly. Olalde et al made it clear they could not detect any significant Iberian dna in Kurgan Bell Beaker, so apparently Iberian input was either non-existent or extremely limited.

In her doctoral dissertation, Once upon a time in the West : paleogenetic analyses on Mesolithic to Early Bronze Age individuals from the Iberian Peninsula, Christina Roth showed there was no mtDNA connection between Iberia and central European (Kurgan) Bell Beaker.

From pages 147-8:



We no longer have to wait for what the y chromosomal or autosomal ancient dna data will show. Olalde et al have shown, and Reich says he and Dan Bradley have many more ancient Iberian samples that show the same thing.



We have a growing library of such results, and Reich said he has even more, and they don't reverse the trend.



Not true. I4144 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt in Germany is C14 dated to 2572-2512 BC.

I am not sure why you would cite I1390 from Sierentz anyway. He had steppe dna and was buried with arrowheads of which Olalde et al said, ". . . the arrow points seem to suggest an Oriental tradition of the European Bell Beakers" (Supplementary Information, page 22).



Not sure what that does for you. U106 hasn't been found in western or central Europe before the Bronze Age either. The oldest ancient U106 thus far found comes from a Nordic Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden c. 2300 BC.



"Non-existence" is incorrect. They haven't been found there yet, unless Reich has some such samples that just haven't been published yet, which might explain his confidence in referring to R1b-P312 as "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin".

Perhaps "NONPUBLICATION" would be better (retaining your use of caps and avoidance of a hyphen).

P312 and L51 have not been found in western or central Europe before the Bronze Age or without steppe dna, as well. When they do turn up, they do so in a steppe-derived culture (Kurgan Bell Beaker). They also turn up at the time the Indo-Europeanization of Europe was taking place and in a culture to which the spread of early Italo-Celtic has been attributed.



See my response to your #13 above. Regarding modern frequency in the east: Don't be silly. People moved, and a lot has happened since the third millennium BC.



Said a lot of people before ancient dna testing became viable. Now we know better.



Groan. It's a pain to have to deal with the same old chestnuts again and again.

Latvia is in eastern Europe. There are Russian river valleys that lead to the Baltic and to Latvia. Eastern HG's could have easily wandered down those valleys to wind up in Latvia.

The oldest of those Latvian R1b-P297s dates to about 7500 BC. YFull dates the mrca of P297 to about 11350 BC. So P297 had already been around for over 3000 years before that hunter-gatherer died.



Yamnaya spawned successor cultures, like Corded Ware and Kurgan Bell Beaker. Kurgan Bell Beaker continued the advance of Indo-European language and culture to the Atlantic. You're not going to try to deny that, are you?

Gimbutas derived Kurgan Bell Beaker from Yamnaya, and so do Harrison and Heyd.

This qpGraph appeared on 31 May 2018 at the Eurogenes Blog.

25449

1.- If we have to speak in legal terms, until Reich publishes his results, everything else is speculation. I don't believe that American Judges accpet hypothesis instead of evidence. If you presented that in a trial, your claim would take a minute to be rejected.

2.- Yes Europe experienced a massive genomic transformation. The important thing is to know WHEN that transformation took place, and if that transformation was produced by the reproductive success of autochtonous haplogroups or by emigrants from other parts of Europe.

3.- Yes archaelogical record of III Millenium is not complete. That's why I say, we should wait.

4.- Harrison and Heyd had to surrender to the evidence. If I could translate you the studies of the Spanish archaelogists, you would realize that except the domestication of the horse and the boar's tusk pendants, everything else existed in Western Europe. You know what "PROTO" means right?

5.- How and when copper working got there IS IMPORTANT, specially for those who defend a technological superiority of the cultures of the steppes. There are pages very read in the Internet (like Eupedia) that dare to say that BB culture brought metal technology to Spain.

6.- Yes, approximately half of the inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula spoke Italo-Celtic languages (lusitanian and celtiberian). Curiosly those Celto-speakers lived in the Western half of the territory. If the invasions (demographic or linguistic) came from Central-Europe crossing the Pyrenees, How is it possible that the inhabitants of these mountains preserved their language while the most distant ones lost it ? May be the Basques and the Iberians kindly allowed the passage of the migrants?

7.- Some day, and if you are truly interested we can talk about the Basque matrilocal tradition. It's interesting, but I think that it's irrelevant talking about the III Millenium BC.

8.- I can't deny that the first Basques were I2, we still don't know, but you don't know for sure either.

9.- May be irrelevant, but people also moved by sea in the third millenium, if R1b, I2 G2..... came to the British islands by boat, why wouldn't do the same in the Iberian peninsula?

10- Undisputed. Joao Cardoso 2.014 has made it very clear. Harrison and Heyd also recognize it. The dispute now is not about the antiquity, but about the way of extending the culture through Central and Western Europe.

11.- I have already sent some studies by German and Swiss researchers on the indisputed existence of mitochondrial iberian haplogroups in Central Europe. And women never travel alone.

12.- I repeat what I said earlier, if Reich doesn't publish his results

13.- Sierentz is P312, I think Osterhofen is U152. Is not the same. According to ancient DNA R1b P312 has its origin in the current French territory.

GASKA
08-24-2018, 07:22 PM
14- Non-Existence is Correct, at least until Reich is kind enough to publicize his results.

15-It would be the first time in the history of genetic investigations that the variability, frequency and antiquity of a haplogroup (3 factors combined) are not evident proof of its origin. R1b P312 is clearly Western.

16.- There are many rivers in Europe, and the path P297 got to Latvia is a mistery. A Judge would tell you to provide evidence of where P297 was for 3.000 years. Otherwise your request that the haplogroup have an oriental origin would be rejected inmediately. Latvia has absolutely nothing to do with the steppes.

17.- I have to admit, that I have no idea when the Indoeuropean languages came into the Iberian peninsula, I have the impression that you don't either.

In any case, I also like the riders of the steppes,if you can prove that they are our ancestors, we will celebrate together

rms2
08-24-2018, 11:51 PM
Can you cite some examples of these elements? In a strictly archeological sense, i don't see anything 'steppe' about 'Kurgan' Bell Beaker, despite them having more than half of their ancestry derived from Yamnaya. If BB and CWC were really derived from Yamnaya (which is almost certainly the case), there seems to be a huge discontinuity between them and their common ancestor.

To answer you, I'll quote from pages 390-391 of Marija Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.

The specific correspondence between the Yamna, Late Vucedol, and Bell Beaker complexes is visible in burial rites which include grave pits under round barrows, the coexistence of cremation and inhumation rites, and the construction of mortuary houses. (FIGURE 10-38) In armaments we see tanged or riveted triangular daggers made of arsenic copper, spear points of arsenic copper and flint, concave-based or tanged triangular arrowheads of flint, and arrow straighteners. In ornaments there are necklaces of canine teeth, copper tubes, or bird bones; boar tusks; and crescent-shaped pendants resembling breast plates. In solar symbolism we find sun or star motifs excised and white encrusted on the inside of braziers, or incised on bone or amber button-shaped beads. Techniques of ceramic decoration include stamping or gouging in zoned metopes, encrustation with white paste of delicate geometric motifs, zigzags, dashes, nets, lozenges, and dots or circles (a Baden-Kostolac-Vucedol tradition). Certain ceramic forms placed in graves, such as braziers and beakers, are from the Kurgan tradition. The Bell Beaker people, wherever they spread, continued the traditional ceramic art connected with their faith. Only the ritual importance of their uniquely beautiful stereotyped beakers could have motivated their production for hundreds of years in lands far from the homeland. The correspondences linking the Bell Beaker and Yamna with the Vucedol - in armament, costume, funeral rites, beliefs in life after death, and in symbolism - are precisely the most significant and revealing. It is very likely that the Bell Beaker complex is an amalgam of Vucedol and Yamna traditions formed after the incursion of the Yamna people into the milieu of the Vucedol culture, i.e., in the course of 300 to 400 years after 3000-2900 B.C. . . .

rms2
08-25-2018, 12:04 AM
14- Non-Existence is Correct, at least until Reich is kind enough to publicize his results.

No, because you would have to prove that P312 did not exist on the steppe, and you cannot do that. Reich refers to P312 as "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin". That's good enough for those of us who do not have an ethno-nationalist axe to grind.



15-It would be the first time in the history of genetic investigations that the variability, frequency and antiquity of a haplogroup (3 factors combined) are not evident proof of its origin. R1b P312 is clearly Western.

Please move beyond the year 2007. That's when that sort of thing was considered a valid argument. Now we have ancient dna that shows that today's variability and frequency of a haplogroup does not equal its antiquity in a place.

Surely you know this by now.



16.- There are many rivers in Europe, and the path P297 got to Latvia is a mistery. A Judge would tell you to provide evidence of where P297 was for 3.000 years. Otherwise your request that the haplogroup have an oriental origin would be rejected inmediately. Latvia has absolutely nothing to do with the steppes.

The presence of P297 in the Baltic circa 7500 BC is certainly not remotely evidence that P312 arose in western Europe.

Latvia is in eastern Europe at the end of river valleys that lead from Russia to the Baltic. As I pointed out, the mrca of P297 is over 3,000 years older than the oldest of those Latvian HGs.

You don't have much on your side of the argument if you must cite those Latvian HGs as evidence (of what?).



17.- I have to admit, that I have no idea when the Indoeuropean languages came into the Iberian peninsula, I have the impression that you don't either.

I certainly do: circa 2500 BC.



In any case, I also like the riders of the steppes,if you can prove that they are our ancestors, we will celebrate together

I'm not sure why you aren't celebrating already. Reich has already told you what the situation in Iberia was.

Of course, like you, I am waiting for the smoking gun, but it's just a matter of time.

Kopfjäger
08-25-2018, 12:20 AM
No, because you would have to prove that P312 did not exist on the steppe, and you cannot do that. Reich refers to P312 as "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin". That's good enough for those of us who do not have an ethno-nationalist axe to grind.



Please move beyond the year 2007. That's when that sort of thing was considered a valid argument. Now we have ancient dna that shows that today's variability and frequency of a haplogroup does not equal its antiquity in a place.

Surely you know this by now.



The presence of P297 in the Baltic circa 7500 BC is certainly not remotely evidence that P312 arose in western Europe.

Latvia is in eastern Europe at the end of river valleys that lead from Russia to the Baltic. As I pointed out, the mrca of P297 is over 3,000 years older than the oldest of those Latvian HGs.

You don't have much on your side of the argument if you must cite those Latvian HGs as evidence (of what?).



I certainly do: circa 2500 BC.



I'm not sure why you aren't celebrating already. Reich has already told you what the situation in Iberia was.

Of course, like you, I am waiting for the smoking gun, but it's just a matter of time.

Rich,

You're not gonna convince the guy, no matter how obvious it is that our ancestors came from the Steppes.

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08-29-2018, 01:26 PM
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jdean
08-29-2018, 04:43 PM
Interesting new paper on the problems with naming genetic clusters found in aDNA

Reconciling material cultures in archaeology with genetic data: The nomenclature of clusters emerging from archaeogenomic analysis (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-31123-z)

Unsurprisingly the Bell Beakers get mentioned quite a few times : )

razyn
08-29-2018, 06:34 PM
Interesting new paper on the problems with naming genetic clusters found in aDNA

Really a very good article, co-authored by a bunch of our current (academic) gurus -- not to say by any of us "hobbyists" who may well know better, but only about little slices here and there. Anyway it deserves a thread of its own, and will probably get one. But it's pertinent to a number of the specific side issues* that cause some of our disagreements (about the topic of this thread) to descend rapidly into flame wars.

*Ethnicity, languages, recent national boundaries in Europe, Nazis, religions and whatnot.

rms2
08-29-2018, 10:50 PM
Interesting new paper on the problems with naming genetic clusters found in aDNA

Reconciling material cultures in archaeology with genetic data: The nomenclature of clusters emerging from archaeogenomic analysis (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-31123-z)

Unsurprisingly the Bell Beakers get mentioned quite a few times : )

Read it on the train on the way home. Don't like the numeric idea or the geographic idea. Think the mixed system, while not perfect, is probably best.

rms2
08-29-2018, 10:58 PM
I definitely think something needs to be done with the name of the Bell Beaker culture/complex/phenomenon. Obviously there were really two very different sorts of Bell Beaker people, belonging to what is called "the same culture" but what was, in reality, two profoundly different cultures. So the one name, "Bell Beaker", for both is just a source of confusion.

And it doesn't do any good to differentiate the two geographically, because eventually the Kurgan/Steppe/Indo-European type of Bell Beaker arrived in Iberia.

I like the term Kurgan Bell Beaker for the steppe pastoralist type of Bell Beaker, but perhaps Central European Pastoralist Bell Beaker (CEPBB) or Fireball XL5 would be better.

I vote for the last one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ifS2nP53Zs

Kopfjäger
08-30-2018, 01:02 AM
I definitely think something needs to be done with the name of the Bell Beaker culture/complex/phenomenon. Obviously there were really two very different sorts of Bell Beaker people, belonging to what is called "the same culture" but what was, in reality, two profoundly different cultures. So the one name, "Bell Beaker", for both is just a source of confusion.

And it doesn't do any good to differentiate the two geographically, because eventually the Kurgan/Steppe/Indo-European type of Bell Beaker arrived in Iberia.

I like the term Kurgan Bell Beaker for the steppe pastoralist type of Bell Beaker, but perhaps Central European Pastoralist Bell Beaker (CEPBB) or Fireball XL5 would be better.

I vote for the last one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ifS2nP53Zs

LOL!!! Is that Thunderbirds?!

I agree that there should be a distinguishing name for the Steppe-descended BB folks.

rms2
08-30-2018, 01:22 AM
LOL!!! Is that Thunderbirds?!

I agree that there should be a distinguishing name for the Steppe-descended BB folks.

No, different show, but very similar.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 07:19 AM
No, different show, but very similar.

https://revistas.uca.es/index.php/rampas/article/view/2268/2101

There is only one BB culture in Europe, in the same way that there is only one Western Civilization.

I found this paper that refers to the objects of adornment in the site of Cerro de la Virgen (Orce, Granada). As you can see, the BB period begins at this site, in 2.450 BC, and finally appear the famous boar's tusk that seemed typical of Central European BBs.

Unlike the British islands, where archeology tell us that the BB culture took the metals to the islands, in Spain the story is very different because we can not relate the new settlers with conquests or technological advances. The only possible explanation is that small family groups cross the Pyrenees and settle in depopulated areas, or mix with the local population quickly adopting their customs.

Romilius
08-30-2018, 07:37 AM
https://revistas.uca.es/index.php/rampas/article/view/2268/2101

There is only one BB culture in Europe, in the same way that there is only one Western Civilization.

I found this paper that refers to the objects of adornment in the site of Cerro de la Virgen (Orce, Granada). As you can see, the BB period begins at this site, in 2.450 BC, and finally appear the famous boar's tusk that seemed typical of Central European BBs.

Unlike the British islands, where archeology tell us that the BB culture took the metals to the islands, in Spain the story is very different because we can not relate the new settlers with conquests or technological advances. The only possible explanation is that small family groups cross the Pyrenees and settle in depopulated areas, or mix with the local population quickly adopting their customs.

If there is only one Bell Beaker culture and it was in Iberia, how do you call the Eastern Beaker-like culture in Poland and Germany?

jdean
08-30-2018, 08:45 AM
I definitely think something needs to be done with the name of the Bell Beaker culture/complex/phenomenon. Obviously there were really two very different sorts of Bell Beaker people, belonging to what is called "the same culture" but what was, in reality, two profoundly different cultures. So the one name, "Bell Beaker", for both is just a source of confusion.

And it doesn't do any good to differentiate the two geographically, because eventually the Kurgan/Steppe/Indo-European type of Bell Beaker arrived in Iberia.

I like the term Kurgan Bell Beaker for the steppe pastoralist type of Bell Beaker, but perhaps Central European Pastoralist Bell Beaker (CEPBB) or Fireball XL5 would be better.

I vote for the last one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ifS2nP53Zs

Trouble with the phrase Kurgan is it seems to incite some people but pastoralist, surely that should be OK ?

It would be nice to have a central resource for all these abbreviations though, I'm already constantly confused and clearly it's going to get more complicated very quickly : )

Maybe ISOGG could put up a list, then hopefully new papers would standardise how they describe these groups as well.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 09:40 AM
If there is only one Bell Beaker culture and it was in Iberia, how do you call the Eastern Beaker-like culture in Poland and Germany?

Only ONE BB culture, originating in the Tagus stuary and atlantic coast of Portugal. This is what archeology tells us.

1.- That culture was extended at first (2.800-2.550 BC) thanks to maritime trade to Britanny, Normandy, Sicily, Sardinia, North Africa,and Spanish and French Mediterranean coast . Iberia exported salt, pottery and metals, and imported amber (Sicily) and ivory (Morocco). These commercial exchanges didn't have to produce genetic exchanges, although it could be that marriages took place between different communities.

2.- From 2.600-2.200 BC, it spread through the interior of the Iberian Peninsula following the course of the rivers Guadiana and Tagus, and through the interior of France following the course of the Rhone river, until reaching the headwaters of the Danube and Rhine rivers. It even reached small areas of Poland and the Netherlands. The deposists in all these regions are residuals compared to the Iberian ones (both in quantity and quality).

3.- Case apart is the British isles, where it seems that inmigrants came from Iberia at first (2.400 BC)- Boscombe Bowmen- I2416- R1b-P310 (I think remember). Collective grave with 9 individuals with 8 BB (7 AOC-1 CZM), 1 boar's tusk 1 worked flint and antler pendants. Impossible to associate any of the grave goods to a particular individual. Lowest amount of steppe related ancestry. From 2.350 BC, the immense majority of the emigrants seems Central european probably coming from the mouth of the Rhine and even from the Alps (R1bP312-L21....)

4.- Since I don't think there were major population movements from Iberia to Central Europe, the only possible explanation for the abundance of R1b P312 in these territories upon the arrival of BB culture, is that these haplogroups were añlready the majority at that time. I think they arrived a thousand years earlier probably with the Khvalinsk culture.

5.- If P312 didn't originate in the Franco-Cantabrian region, the Central European P312, adopted the BB culture and later spread it to Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic and the British isles.

Your mistake is to identify a culture with a certain Y haplogroup, first, because women made ceramics, and then because in the history of mankind absolute pure cultures have never been known (speaking in racial or genetic terms).

jdean
08-30-2018, 09:46 AM
Your mistake is to identify a culture with a certain Y haplogroup, first, because women made ceramics, and then because in the history of mankind absolute pure cultures have never been known (speaking in racial or genetic terms).

If we were relying simply on Y DNA I might be able to agree with you but the conclusions are based mostly on autosomal DNA, AIH the scientists who produce these papers tend not to be very interested in the Y chromosome.

Isidro
08-30-2018, 11:12 AM
Deconstructing and identifying oldest steppe Bell Beakers in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.


This title header strictly speaking, although cleverly assembled together does not say the steppe people carried Bell Beakers to Germany.


So what exactly do we know for sure what culture package and whom came from the steppe is not that clear yet.


Indoeuropean origins present a South Caucasus trend, and this is not a 10 year old concept as many already know.


Metalworking, although present in the steppes makes the Yamna recipients of older innovations coming from their southern borders, and for sure already existing in old Europe.


Bell Beakers are widely described as a cultural birth, and European spread from Iberia,as recent publications, for example Olalde et al.


Horse domestication not connected with steppe.
Published August 16, 2018:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o0KSWB42Y


How about DNA, what do we know about steppe migrations?:


Northern Europe has a huge influx still present to this day, as one travels southwest it fades away, one might even say that northern latitudes full of empty land was filled by newcomers, I still don't get this event called by some replacement like in the British Isles central European migrations in the late 3rd Millenium.As we travel and reach the temperate and more populated areas of southern Europe their impact dwindles.


Kurgan burials are a symptom of this quantified migration that did carried that cultural custom with them.


Some have postulated it was a male driven invasion, destroying and taming Neolithic people.Newer studies wider in scope put this also in question, published on August of 2018:
Mitochondrial genomes reveal an east to west cline of steppe ancestry in Corded Ware populations
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-29914-5

This points do not cover all it can be said about the subject but sure is a sampler of what was the Bell Beaker in Germany.

rms2
08-30-2018, 11:29 AM
Only ONE BB culture, originating in the Tagus stuary and atlantic coast of Portugal. This is what archeology tells us . . .

No, the archaeology tells us there were at least two profoundly different cultures, both referred to by the same unfortunate moniker. Now the genetics reinforces what the archaeology has said all along.

Do I need to go over the differences yet again? As I said, they are profound.

Do you think Sangmeister would have found it necessary to come up with his Reflux Model, if Bell Beaker had not been so plainly divided into two very different types?



Your mistake is to identify a culture with a certain Y haplogroup, first, because women made ceramics, and then because in the history of mankind absolute pure cultures have never been known (speaking in racial or genetic terms).

Your mistake is to gloss over the profound differences between early Iberian Bell Beaker and Kurgan Bell Beaker and conflate the two.

No one said anything about any "pure cultures", but cultures are made up of people, and male people carry a y chromosome. Kurgan Bell Beaker has thus far been characterized genetically by y chromosome R1b-P312 and by steppe autosomal dna, both of which were missing in the earlier Iberian culture also confusingly dubbed Bell Beaker.

You weren't here at Anthrogenica to witness it, but for several years before we had any early Iberian BB dna results, I and a couple of other people were pointing out the significant differences in early Iberian BB and the Kurgan type of BB, differences in culture and in physical anthropology that were pretty obvious.

A couple of us, myself included, said back then that it looked like we were talking about two very different kinds of people and two very different cultures.

Then Olalde et al came along and provided a genetic component to the observation of those differences.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 11:32 AM
If we were relying simply on Y DNA I might be able to agree with you but the conclusions are based mostly on autosomal DNA, AIH the scientists who produce these papers tend not to be very interested in the Y chromosome.

I have to admit that I am not an expert in autosomal DNA, and therefore I have to accept some identification criteria that I don't understand. The individuals analyzed to establish the classification criteria according to their autosomal DNA are very scarce- WHG-Using for example el Mirón and la Braña cluster (Spain) or Lochbour.

I mean that autosomal DNA doesn't seem very reliable as a criterion for classifying the origin of an individual, but apparently the scientists are very clear that it is perfectly valid.

So we have to believe, that the vast majority of men related to BB culture in Central and Western Europe have steppe related ancestry to a greeter or lesser extent. And,

What about women?

What happens with the mobility of populations? A man can cross Europe on horseback in two months.

What happens with genetic recombination?. Are you absolutely sure that the way to determine autosomal DNA is absolutely reliable?.

How can you Know that the mesolithic hunter gatherer of la Braña-Arintero (7.000 BC) was born in Iberia and not in Italy or Russia? Do you know for sure where his parents or grandparents were born? He was dark-skinned, had blue eyes, HaplogroupY-C, and 35 years old when he died ( he can travel to Ukraine several times throughout his life).

Apparently I have a 38% of autosomal germanic DNA. I know my ancestors by male lineage for 20 generations (1.370-Reign of Henry II of Castile), and all of them born in the Basque Country and Castile, and all of them married to Spanish or Portuguese women. Where does that Germanic blood come from? The Basques resisted the Goths from 300 years, and were the only ones who maintained their independence from the Visigothic Kingdom of Toledo. May be my ancestors were traitor Goths passed to the enemy.


My YSTR matches are all Irish and Scottish and theoretically we have a common ancestor in 20 generations. How is it possible? Could it be that the Basques (and Spaniards in general) and the British have genetic connections that we don't know yet? I don't think that is so, because we don't know significant population movements between Spanish and British.

There are many doubts to be solved , and the Autosomal DNA is not enough explanation. I would like to have things as clear as you have them.

rms2
08-30-2018, 11:51 AM
. . .


Horse domestication not connected with steppe.
Published August 16, 2018:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o0KSWB42Y

. . .

Did you actually listen to what Dr. Outram had to say?

He did not say horse domestication is not connected to the steppe. He merely said that the Botai people of what is now Kazakhstan were not the first domesticators of the ancestors of modern horses. They domesticated horses, but their horses were not the ancestors of modern horses.

The first domesticators of modern horses were Yamnaya or related people from the steppe.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 12:24 PM
No, the archaeology tells us there were at least two profoundly different cultures, both referred to by the same unfortunate moniker. Now the genetics reinforces what the archaeology has said all along.

Do I need to go over the differences yet again? As I said, they are profound.

Do you think Sangmeister would have found it necessary to come up with his Reflux Model, if Bell Beaker had not been so plainly divided into two very different types?



Your mistake is to gloss over the profound differences between early Iberian Bell Beaker and Kurgan Bell Beaker and conflate the two.

No one said anything about any "pure cultures", but cultures are made up of people, and male people carry a y chromosome. Kurgan Bell Beaker has thus far been characterized genetically by y chromosome R1b-P312 and by steppe autosomal dna, both of which were missing in the earlier Iberian culture also confusingly dubbed Bell Beaker.

You weren't here at Anthrogenica to witness it, but for several years before we had any early Iberian BB dna results, I and a couple of other people were pointing out the significant differences in early Iberian BB and the Kurgan type of BB, differences in culture and in physical anthropology that were pretty obvious.

A couple of us, myself included, said back then that it looked like we were talking about two very different kinds of people and two very different cultures.

Then Olalde et al came along and provided a genetic component to the observation of those differences.

Sangmeister Model is one of many that have been proposed to explain the extension of BB culture. It's normal that in a period as large as 1.000 years, there are regional variants in a culture, and that these innovations travel from North to South and East to West crossing Europe. I don't know how Sangmeister explains aspects of this culture that are unique to the Iberian peninsula (Palmela spearheads or Ciempozuelos style, for example), but it's clear that he saw the problem from an archaelogical point of view, not genetic. Population movements are also not necessary to spread this culture thanks to the amazing maritime and terrestrial trade of the Europan chalcolithic. Sangmeister saw different types of pottery with a common pattern, and his explanation is archaelogically valid, because he knew that the antiquity is greater in the Iberian peninsula.

You have to understand that the big problem is linking P312 with the BB culture, if you don't, we could agree. You can't say "two different cultures", in any case "two variants of the same culture"

Regarding "two very different kinds of people", I agree that in Iberia we only have haplogroups I2 and G2 in the first phase of the BB culture (2.800- 2.500 BC), by the way, the same ones that existed in France, Italy, Central-Europe and the British isles (you will never find them associated with BB culture in those territories, simply because they didn't know it). But from 2.500-2.400 BC, the Haplogroup R1b-P312 is also a majority in Iberia (at least in the 16 samples published by Olalde), so I don't understand your assertion of "two different kinds of people". There are never been significant anthropological differences between Iberia and the rest of Europe.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 01:55 PM
Did you actually listen to what Dr. Outram had to say?

He did not say horse domestication is not connected to the steppe. He merely said that the Botai people of what is now Kazakhstan were not the first domesticators of the ancestors of modern horses. They domesticated horses, but their horses were not the ancestors of modern horses.

The first domesticators of modern horses were Yamnaya or related people from the steppe.

Foster P, et al 2.002- Proceding of National Academic Sciences- Mitochondrial test to 600 horses of 25 different breeds. Conclusion, horses come from 17 different genetics groups, which were domesticated in 6 different places. The domestication of the horse can not be treated in a simplistic way either. The study doen's rule out that the domestication took place in the Eurasian steppes, Mongolia, Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Kazakhstan (Botai-3.500-3.000 BC).

What seems clear is that the current horses do not come from the old european horses (Przewalski), because this has 66 chromosomes and the modern domesticated horses 64.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/05/horse-domestication-dna-indo-european-science/

GASKA
08-30-2018, 02:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50o0KSWB42Y

Cueva de la Selva Pascuala (Cuenca, España), Arte esquemático levantino.
25603

The painting is 5.000 years old. What do you think this man is doing? There are only 3 answers- 1- Capturing the horse to eat it, 2.-Taming it. 3.- May be the first R1b-P312 in the Iberian peninsula teaching the local population how to capture or tame horses. I guess you prefer the third option.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_art_of_the_Iberian_Mediterranean_Basin

kinman
08-30-2018, 04:10 PM
I agree with him about Botai not being the first domesticators of the horse. As I said back in 2015 ( https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-5292.html ), domestication of horses began further west and the idea would have spread east to Botai:

"The horse was probably domesticated about 6500 years ago by members of R-L51 (and/or their relatives in Z2103 or PF7558/PF7562), and they would have been speaking an archaic Proto-Indo-European language around this time. Although their language would spread west (along with them, their descendants, and their horses), horse domestication would also spread east to the Botai Culture and beyond (but that could have happened decades or even centuries after they were first domesticated a little further west). Domestication of horses was probably initially done for their milk and meat, followed by breeding, and then for riding as well. And even riding may not have initially involved bitting that would leave traces on the teeth of the horses. So genetic evidence (especially of the domesticators) will be a better indicator of when domestication began."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you actually listen to what Dr. Outram had to say?

He did not say horse domestication is not connected to the steppe. He merely said that the Botai people of what is now Kazakhstan were not the first domesticators of the ancestors of modern horses. They domesticated horses, but their horses were not the ancestors of modern horses.

The first domesticators of modern horses were Yamnaya or related people from the steppe.

Romilius
08-30-2018, 04:34 PM
I remember that in a post by Carlos Quiles on his site he wrote that Khokhlov's book would have been out in summer... does someone know something about it?

rms2
08-30-2018, 04:42 PM
Sangmeister Model is one of many that have been proposed to explain the extension of BB culture . . .

Sangmeister came up with it to explain the obvious disparities between early Iberian BB and Kurgan BB. He recognized that Kurgan BB was very different from early Iberian BB and that the latter did not look like the father of the former.



You have to understand that the big problem is linking P312 with the BB culture, if you don't, we could agree. You can't say "two different cultures", in any case "two variants of the same culture"

I don't link P312 with "the BB culture" in the way you think of it, as a single entity that began in Portugal. I do think R1b-P312 was pretty obviously linked to the Kurgan Bell Beaker culture or complex, at least while that complex existed. I suspect R1b-P312 was in Yamnaya, or the pre-Beaker subset of Yamnaya, before that.



Regarding "two very different kinds of people", I agree that in Iberia we only have haplogroups I2 and G2 in the first phase of the BB culture (2.800- 2.500 BC), by the way, the same ones that existed in France, Italy, Central-Europe and the British isles (you will never find them associated with BB culture in those territories, simply because they didn't know it). But from 2.500-2.400 BC, the Haplogroup R1b-P312 is also a majority in Iberia (at least in the 16 samples published by Olalde), so I don't understand your assertion of "two different kinds of people". There are never been significant anthropological differences between Iberia and the rest of Europe.

What you call "the first phase of the BB culture" in Iberia differed considerably from Kurgan Bell Beaker. I have already enumerated those differences multiple times.

R1b-P312 arrived in Iberia circa 2500 BC with Kurgan Bell Beaker and steppe dna. That marks the arrival of new and different people from the east, with a different culture with different practices. It didn't bear much resemblance to your Iberian first phase.

As for anthropological or anthropometric differences, there were a number of them. Your first phasers tended to be short in stature, with long skulls and gracile skeletons, which set of characteristics taken together form what is commonly known as the Mediterranean type. Kurgan Bell Beaker people, on the other hand, especially the men, tended to be tall for the period, with robust skeletons, and, while not universal, there was a tendency toward brachycephaly among them.

Olalde et al clearly showed that, in addition to these cultural and anthropological differences, there were profound genetic differences between your first phase population and Kurgan Bell Beaker people.

Two very different kinds of people, with two very different cultures.

That's what you get when the differences between peoples and cultures greatly outnumber their similarities.

rms2
08-30-2018, 04:52 PM
Foster P, et al 2.002- Proceding of National Academic Sciences- Mitochondrial test to 600 horses of 25 different breeds. Conclusion, horses come from 17 different genetics groups, which were domesticated in 6 different places. The domestication of the horse can not be treated in a simplistic way either. The study doen's rule out that the domestication took place in the Eurasian steppes, Mongolia, Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Kazakhstan (Botai-3.500-3.000 BC).

What seems clear is that the current horses do not come from the old european horses (Przewalski), because this has 66 chromosomes and the modern domesticated horses 64.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/05/horse-domestication-dna-indo-european-science/

2002 study of modern horses. Seriously dated.

Things are about to get a lot better. Dr. Outram himself said he had to change his opinion from what he wrote in his own paper of 2009.

Ancient dna, including ancient horse dna, is the thing now. We should all learn a lot about horse evolution and domestication in the next year or so.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 06:25 PM
I agree with him about Botai not being the first domesticators of the horse. As I said back in 2015 ( https://anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-5292.html ), domestication of horses began further west and the idea would have spread east to Botai:

"The horse was probably domesticated about 6500 years ago by members of R-L51 (and/or their relatives in Z2103 or PF7558/PF7562), and they would have been speaking an archaic Proto-Indo-European language around this time. Although their language would spread west (along with them, their descendants, and their horses), horse domestication would also spread east to the Botai Culture and beyond (but that could have happened decades or even centuries after they were first domesticated a little further west). Domestication of horses was probably initially done for their milk and meat, followed by breeding, and then for riding as well. And even riding may not have initially involved bitting that would leave traces on the teeth of the horses. So genetic evidence (especially of the domesticators) will be a better indicator of when domestication began."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can you be so sure of where, how and who domesticated a horse for the first time? Do You know for sure that it was L51 or his brother Z2103?. At the moment thereis not even L51 in Yamnaya.

Writing, metallurgy, agriculture and domestication of animals occurred independently in different parts of the world. Nobody taught the American Indians to grow corn, nor the Chinese to write, the Balkans to forge metals, the Sumerian to raise goats or the Botai to tame horses.

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture.html

dsm
08-30-2018, 06:34 PM
https://revistas.uca.es/index.php/rampas/article/view/2268/2101

There is only one BB culture in Europe, in the same way that there is only one Western Civilization.

I found this paper that refers to the objects of adornment in the site of Cerro de la Virgen (Orce, Granada). As you can see, the BB period begins at this site, in 2.450 BC, and finally appear the famous boar's tusk that seemed typical of Central European BBs.

Unlike the British islands, where archeology tell us that the BB culture took the metals to the islands, in Spain the story is very different because we can not relate the new settlers with conquests or technological advances. The only possible explanation is that small family groups cross the Pyrenees and settle in depopulated areas, or mix with the local population quickly adopting their customs.

Why are you writing as if the British BB peoples are the same (as in same Y-DNA) people as the Iberian BB peoples. We know from currently published research that today's evidence does not support such a story. You seem to be seeking to shore up a flawed argument that BB is more important than the published detail that shows these two groups were not the same people.

D

Mr. Snow
08-30-2018, 06:55 PM
Why are you writing as if the British BB peoples are the same (as in same Y-DNA) people as the Iberian BB peoples. We know from currently published research that today's evidence does not support such a story. You seem to be seeking to shore up a flawed argument that BB is more important than the published detail that shows these two groups were not the same people.

D

North Italian and southern French BB had the same Y-DNA as central European BB. If we had hundreds of northern Italian and southern French BB samples and only 2 or 3 from central Europe where BB was invading CWC territory and halving the local Steppe admixture we would have a completely different narrative of who the BB people were. It's the extremely biased sampling that gives a skewed picture of reality.

dsm
08-30-2018, 06:59 PM
I have to admit that I am not an expert in autosomal DNA, and therefore I have to accept some identification criteria that I don't understand. The individuals analyzed to establish the classification criteria according to their autosomal DNA are very scarce- WHG-Using for example el Mirón and la Braña cluster (Spain) or Lochbour.

I mean that autosomal DNA doesn't seem very reliable as a criterion for classifying the origin of an individual, but apparently the scientists are very clear that it is perfectly valid.

So we have to believe, that the vast majority of men related to BB culture in Central and Western Europe have steppe related ancestry to a greeter or lesser extent. And,

What about women?

What happens with the mobility of populations? A man can cross Europe on horseback in two months.

What happens with genetic recombination?. Are you absolutely sure that the way to determine autosomal DNA is absolutely reliable?.

How can you Know that the mesolithic hunter gatherer of la Braña-Arintero (7.000 BC) was born in Iberia and not in Italy or Russia? Do you know for sure where his parents or grandparents were born? He was dark-skinned, had blue eyes, HaplogroupY-C, and 35 years old when he died ( he can travel to Ukraine several times throughout his life).

Apparently I have a 38% of autosomal germanic DNA. I know my ancestors by male lineage for 20 generations (1.370-Reign of Henry II of Castile), and all of them born in the Basque Country and Castile, and all of them married to Spanish or Portuguese women. Where does that Germanic blood come from? The Basques resisted the Goths from 300 years, and were the only ones who maintained their independence from the Visigothic Kingdom of Toledo. May be my ancestors were traitor Goths passed to the enemy.


My YSTR matches are all Irish and Scottish and theoretically we have a common ancestor in 20 generations. How is it possible? Could it be that the Basques (and Spaniards in general) and the British have genetic connections that we don't know yet? I don't think that is so, because we don't know significant population movements between Spanish and British.

There are many doubts to be solved , and the Autosomal DNA is not enough explanation. I would like to have things as clear as you have them.

Has David Reich's book been translated into Spanish (or Euskara) ? - if yes read it very carefully and spend as much time as you can reading how his lab is able to identify ancient admixture patterns (yes from autosomal DNA) going back to Neanderthals & Denisovans, where they match small patterns against other ancient and modern DNA. From these patterns and matching, they can predict approximately when these groups parted & re-met and later blended with the more modern humans around 50,000 to 45,000 ybp.

The book is really a watershed in understanding how autosomal DNA really can be analysed & deciphered over 1000s of years and not just the past 6 or so generations.

Cheers D

jdean
08-30-2018, 07:00 PM
Does that sound like Joe Yellow?

Never heard of him before and couldn't listen to him for very long either : )

I suspect Gioiello would be equally unimpressed : )

jdean
08-30-2018, 07:15 PM
North Italian and southern French BB had the same Y-DNA as central European BB. If we had hundreds of northern Italian and southern French BB samples and only 2 or 3 from central Europe where BB was invading CWC territory and halving the local Steppe admixture we would have a completely different narrative of who the BB people were. It's the extremely biased sampling that gives a skewed picture of reality.

It's nothing to do with biased sampling, where you find L11 in aDNA you find Steppe autosomal DNA and when L11 is lacking so is the Steppe element (with the odd exception)

Out if interest who are you accusing of bias and what could you imagine they would get out of skewing the data ? these are scientist we are talking about.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 08:09 PM
Has David Reich's book been translated into Spanish (or Euskara) ? - if yes read it very carefully and spend as much time as you can reading how his lab is able to identify ancient admixture patterns (yes from autosomal DNA) going back to Neanderthals & Denisovans, where they match small patterns against other ancient and modern DNA. From these patterns and matching, they can predict approximately when these groups parted & re-met and later blended with the more modern humans around 50,000 to 45,000 ybp.

The book is really a watershed in understanding how autosomal DNA really can be analysed & deciphered over 1000s of years and not just the past 6 or so generations.

Cheers D

Thanks for the advice, I will try to read it.

GASKA
08-30-2018, 08:21 PM
Why are you writing as if the British BB peoples are the same (as in same Y-DNA) people as the Iberian BB peoples. We know from currently published research that today's evidence does not support such a story. You seem to be seeking to shore up a flawed argument that BB is more important than the published detail that shows these two groups were not the same people.

D

Because there are many Iberian BBs that are R1b P312 and U152 (olalde et al). Do you think these two groups were not the same people?

GASKA
08-30-2018, 08:56 PM
It's nothing to do with biased sampling, where you find L11 in aDNA you find Steppe autosomal DNA and when L11 is lacking so is the Steppe element (with the odd exception)

Out if interest who are you accusing of bias and what could you imagine they would get out of skewing the data ? these are scientist we are talking about.

Olalde et al analyzed 44 sites (more than 300 skeletons) in Great Britain between 2.400-1.000 BC, 5 sites (16 skeletons in Spain (2.500-2.000 BC), 2 sites in Italy, and a few in France. Do you think this is comparable? I think that if he had analyzed more sites, we would have a better knowledge of the BB culture in continental Europe. Don't you think so?

20 of the samples of R1b-P312 in Great Britain are of the Bronze Age (2.000-1.000 BC), Do you know how many Spanish or Italian burials Olalde analyzed from this period? None.

Late chalcolithic GB (2.200-2.100 BC)- 10 samples P312. 2 samples I2a- I1767 (2.085 BC) and I7638 (2.030 BC).

Chalcolithic (2.400-2.200 BC)- 7 samples. 1 of them- Boscombe Bowmen I2416- Fitzpatrick said- "It's striking that the grave is a collective one, as most BB burials in Wessex are single burials (characteristic often been used to support a Rhineland origin of the introduction of BB culture). NOT covered by a barrow. This man had been resident in one location aged 5 and in a second location aged 11-13 (Britanny, Portugal). Lower Rhine biosphere is excluded as one of the childhood residence of the Boscombe Bowmen.

Do you really want us to think that the results can be considered as definitive? They may be for Great Britain, never for the rest of Europe.

Isidro
08-30-2018, 11:46 PM
Just out of curiosity and personal learning drive, is there R-11 that does not have Neolithic autosomal dna?.
Is there R1b-L51 that doesn't have Neolithic autosomal DNA?.
Does R1b-V88 in the African Continent have steppe DNA?. Does it have Neolithic DNA?.

jdean
08-30-2018, 11:57 PM
Just out of curiosity and personal learning drive, is there R-11 that does not have Neolithic autosomal dna?.
Is there R1b-L51 that doesn't have Neolithic autosomal DNA?.
Does R1b-V88 in the African Continent have steppe DNA?. Does it have Neolithic DNA?.

Are you talking about ancient or modern DNA ?

Be very interesting to got some V88 aDNA from Africa but as yet there isn't any AFAIK but best current bet is it would be WHG, EEF x EHG

Isidro
08-31-2018, 12:05 AM
Both ancient and modern. They both help , I am not sure what you mean by V88 aDNA from Africa. I do know they also carry the European found lactose tolerant allele, so we are not devoid of interesting DNA info from Africa.


Are you talking about ancient or modern DNA ?

Be very interesting to got some V88 aDNA from Africa but as yet there isn't any AFAIK but best current bet is it would be WHG, EEF x EHG

jdean
08-31-2018, 12:13 AM
Both ancient and modern. They both help , I am not sure what you mean by V88 aDNA from Africa. I do know they also carry the European found lactose tolerant allele, so we are not devoid of interesting DNA info from Africa.

aDNA is just shorthand for ancient DNA

Clearly all post neolithic people descend from people living in the neolithic so it would be impossible for any of them to not have neolithic DNA, unless you are talking about EEF & WHG specifically ?

dsm
08-31-2018, 12:14 AM
North Italian and southern French BB had the same Y-DNA as central European BB. If we had hundreds of northern Italian and southern French BB samples and only 2 or 3 from central Europe where BB was invading CWC territory and halving the local Steppe admixture we would have a completely different narrative of who the BB people were. It's the extremely biased sampling that gives a skewed picture of reality.

Hi thanks for that, but is this an opinion or a published fact ? - very hard to argue with opinion if it is portrayed as fact.

Cheers D

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