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R.Rocca
03-27-2018, 07:13 PM
We now have confirmation that there was a genetic distinction between Steppe Bell Beaker and Iberian Bell Beaker, with only the former having steppe ancestry and belonging almost entirely to haplogroup R1b-L11. A tip of the cap to posters "Alan" and "rms" for insisting on that point for many years. One of the major distinguishing factors between the two groups has always been the difference in burial rites. Steppe Bell Beaker buried their dead in single graves while Iberian Bell Beaker continued the Neolithic practice of collective burials. In September 2015 I postulated that if there was a difference between the two populations (we had none from Iberia), radiocarbon dating of single graves may lead us to some important information about the origin of L11. Since we now have radiocarbon dates of single grave Steppe Bell Beaker R1b-P312 samples, I pulled together all Bell Beaker dates from single graves that used bone/collagen samples and avoided charcoal samples affected by what called the “old wood” effect. To my delight, some new radiocarbon dates have come to light and are likely to drastically alter our view of Steppe Bell Beaker. Without a doubt, the oldest dates come from the area of Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. See the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit?usp=sharing

After throwing out two Dutch dates that Lanting classified as “too old” possibly due to contamination, and two French dates because of very large standard deviations (130+ years), the top eight oldest dates are from three sites in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. Of note is the sample from Bleckendorf. Some publications classify him as Yamnaya and some as Bell Beaker. This is what Harrison and Heyd had to say about this burial:


In this transformation, under the impact of ideas
originating in the Yamnaya culture, different processes
were taking place together, and their mutual interactions
are more complicated than one might expect. It is
obvious that cultural assimilation by indigenous people
of an ideological ‘Package’ was important; but so too
was the arrival of individual people from the steppes
and Pontic area. Their significance derives from their
social rank, and the archetype is the single burial from
Bleckendorf, Lkr. Aschersleben-Staßfurt (Saxony-Anhalt)
in Germany (Behrens 1952) (Fig. 49). We do not
know if this man journeyed farther to the west than
anyone else, yet his equipment and burial rite was
typical for the Yamnaya culture. An early tanged knife,
a copper awl, bone hammerhead pin, and a decorated
beaker accompanied the skeleton in a deep pit. The
radiocarbon determination places it around the 27th
century BC (14C: 4080±20 bp [KIA-162]; 1-Sigma:
2850–2500 BC: J. Müller 1999). The nearest parallels
are found in Moldavia at the Dnestr River and in the
Ukraine.


http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bleckendorf_BB.png

Yes, this sample had a Corded Ware beaker, but if we consider pottery making as a female craft, his wife could very well have been a Corded Ware woman. His male prestige item is a copper dagger in the Yamnaya/Bell Beaker style instead of a Corded Ware axe. The Yamnaya/Bell Beaker classification puts him squarely in the L23 conversation. This is not very far-fetched when you consider that twenty miles away and, one or two generations later we have the ninth oldest date… none other than the Kromsdorf R-M343 sample! The Kromsdorf cemetery also had an R-M269 sample that was not radiocarbon dated. Since individual SNPs were called, not much more is known about their genetics. Saxony-Anhalt samples continue to dominate until we get to our eighteenth oldest sample RISE563. He is our oldest R-P312 (and R-U152) and also the first sample found south of the Danube.

While this does not mean that Saxony-Anhalt is the “ground zero” expansion point for L11, it would help explain a lot of what we know about L11 so far, namely:

1. Steppe Bell Beaker’s non-steppe ancestry needs a population with Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) matching that of Globular Amphora Culture (GAC) or the Funnelbeaker Culture.
2. Bell Beaker samples from Rhenish Bell Beaker (Netherlands and Britain) have more steppe ancestry than other Steppe Bell Beaker samples.
3. The great diversity of Y-DNA groups in Csepel and Vucedol, both in the form of L23 and non-R1b. If L11 took this route, some may have stayed behind while the rest kept moving. Perhaps an early escape from the Great Hungarian Plain can be traced through tumuli as far west as Slovakia and the Austrian Burgenland. Tracing Lockenringe is another option.
4. The founder effects (L2 in the Bell Beaker East Group and L21 in Britain) almost calls for a centralized P312 or L11-only group with no other haplogroups, namely Z2103 nor R1a and certainly not non-R haplogroups.
5. A place where U106 was not too far to the east, at least not far enough so that it could not appear (without R1a) meaningful numbers just as the Bell Beaker Culture was starting to fade.
6. The lack of R1b in Corded Ware samples. These early dates make it so that R1b is not needed in Corded Ware.

So we have a very early Yamnaya/Bell Beaker man in Bleckendorf, Saxony-Anhalt, we have a very early R-M343+ man in Kromsdorf, Saxony-Anhalt and we have two later L11+ Bell Beaker samples from Quedlinburg, Saxony-Anhalt (I0805 and I0806). So, that raises the question... was Saxony-Anhalt the main expansion area for L11 and/or P312?

rms2
03-27-2018, 11:11 PM
I wish we had that Bleckendorf man's genome. Certainly is a strange burial, so far west, yet so Yamnaya-like. The CW beaker bothers me a little, but he wasn't buried CW style, and there is that dagger rather than the usual CW stone battle axe.

rms2
03-27-2018, 11:28 PM
. . .


http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bleckendorf_BB.png

. . .

That beaker looks a lot like late Single Grave CW and something like early Bell Beaker (like 2Ib) in the picture below.

22359

Glad to see use of the term Steppe Bell Beaker to differentiate what I've been calling Kurgan Bell Beaker (same thing) from the Neolithic, collective tomb, gracile-Mediterranean-skeleton, non-R1b-M269 Bell Beaker. We need something like that for ease of understanding and brevity of communication. Either term, Steppe Bell Beaker or Kurgan Bell Beaker, is fine with me. (I like the little tip-of-the-hat to Gimbutas, but either way is good.)

rms2
03-28-2018, 12:53 AM
I know I have posted this elsewhere, but I want to suggest that maybe the Yamnaya subgroup Budzhak came up from its home territory near the NW coast of the Black Sea, went up the Prut River valley and came via the north slopes of the Carpathians and Malopolska into central Europe, and that Budzhak is the mysterious pre-Beaker culture.

This is from page 113 of Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture":



Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).


Budzhak buried its important males crouched on their left sides like Steppe Bell Beaker men, sometimes in stone-lined cists (like many SBB burials), and with archery equipment(!). Budzhak also had some beakers that were a lot like Steppe Bell Beaker beakers.

This picture is from the aforementioned Ivanova Budzhak paper:

22360

Budzhak beakers vs. NE Scottish Steppe Bell Beakers:

22361

22362

rms2
03-28-2018, 01:04 AM
Here's a Budzhak burial in a stone-lined cist in which the posture is very much like that of the Bleckendorf man in Rich's original post.

22364

alan
03-28-2018, 01:09 AM
A central date of c 2675BC works because he still post-dates the large R1a CW wave that has even reached Switzerland by 2750BC (dendro dates). It fits a pattern also noted of south Poland that other steppe groups and influences from Ukraine, Moldova etc were leaking into part of the CW zone in the century or two after the big wave west of CW.

rms2
03-28-2018, 01:15 AM
Sorry to keep rattling on, but there's this, from page 119 of Ivanova's Budzhak article (note the mention of contact with GAC):



A specific feature of the cultural – historical genesis of the North-Western Pontic Region at the turn of the 4th to the 3rd mill. BC is manifested by relations of its population with a foreign cultural environment. This concerns, first and foremost, the Budzhak culture that is a component of the Yamnaya cultural-historical region. The Budzhak culture represents connections with the Carpathian and Danube, the Corded Ware and the Globular Amphora cultures. The contacts were reflected in two aspects: imports, imitations and parallels in the Budzhak pottery and the occurrence of the Yamnaya burials found in other territories. Some forms of pottery and elements of its décor are rather surprisingly similar to central European groups of the Corded Ware culture. The analysis of the mainland culture of the Budzhak population enables us to assume the existence of contacts with the Corded Ware culture circle as early as in the first half of the 3rd mill. BC.

rms2
03-28-2018, 01:49 AM
Here is something interesting because it mentions Bleckendorf, Saxony-Anhalt, from page 98 of Ivanova's Budzhak article:



The Yamnaya population moves far westwards, Yamnaya graves bearing local features (Vucedol) are known in Gönyü in the West of Hungary, Neusiedl-am-See in eastern Austria; Essling near Vienna and Bleckendorf, Saxony-Anhalt [Harrison, Heyd 2007; Heyd 2011].

MitchellSince1893
03-28-2018, 04:18 AM
FWIW, Sashen-Anhalt does fit well with my rough estimate of the geographic midpoints for the minor L11 subclades and Iain McDonald's estimate that U106 originated between Prague and the Baltic

-DF100/S1200 (Armenia, Scandinavia, Hungary, Germany) comes out in western Ukraine near the Polish border. If you remove Armenia then it's near near the Oder River (mid point on the German/Polish border...half way between the Baltic and Prague)

-L238 (Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, Austria) comes out near the Oder River (mid point on the German/Polish border) very close to DF100 pt above

-A8039/S1194(Germany, Scandinavia, Armenia) comes out in NW Ukraine. If you remove Armenia it comes out on the German Baltic coast.

These sites that Rich identified in Sachen-Anhalt (Egeln Nord, Hettstedt, Alberstedt, Wetzendory) are about 125 miles west of these minor subclade midpoints.


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4710-R1b-U106-in-Swedish-Battle-Axe-Culture-(a-Corded-Ware-subgroup)&p=364987#post364987


..."The nearest parallels are found in Moldavia at the Dnestr River and in the Ukraine As rms2 mentioned this is the same area as the Yamnaya Budzhak culture.

Cascio
03-28-2018, 08:01 AM
Where does R1b-Z36 fit into this scenario.

Was it a Bell Beaker subclade and from which geographical zone of the Bell Beaker culture?

Romilius
03-28-2018, 11:40 AM
Where does R1b-Z36 fit into this scenario.

Was it a Bell Beaker subclade and from which geographical zone of the Bell Beaker culture?

Very difficult to say... I'd suppose that Z36 formed in the Hungarian area and moved to Italy very late, with Celts.

Romilius
03-28-2018, 11:41 AM
We now have confirmation that there was a genetic distinction between Steppe Bell Beaker and Iberian Bell Beaker, with only the former having steppe ancestry and belonging almost entirely to haplogroup R1b-L11. A tip of the cap to posters "Alan" and "rms" for insisting on that point for many years. One of the major distinguishing factors between the two groups has always been the difference in burial rites. Steppe Bell Beaker buried their dead in single graves while Iberian Bell Beaker continued the Neolithic practice of collective burials. In September 2015 I postulated that if there was a difference between the two populations (we had none from Iberia), radiocarbon dating of single graves may lead us to some important information about the origin of L11. Since we now have radiocarbon dates of single grave Steppe Bell Beaker R1b-P312 samples, I pulled together all Bell Beaker dates from single graves that used bone/collagen samples and avoided charcoal samples affected by what called the “old wood” effect. To my delight, some new radiocarbon dates have come to light and are likely to drastically alter our view of Steppe Bell Beaker. Without a doubt, the oldest dates come from the area of Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. See the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/174yaoT_OvTLO34_XM6_BIugQ1O0n6G5Tr7vZZ7hNPrw/edit?usp=sharing

After throwing out two Dutch dates that Lanting classified as “too old” possibly due to contamination, and two French dates because of very large standard deviations (130+ years), the top eight oldest dates are from three sites in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. Of note is the sample from Bleckendorf. Some publications classify him as Yamnaya and some as Bell Beaker. This is what Harrison and Heyd had to say about this burial:


In this transformation, under the impact of ideas
originating in the Yamnaya culture, different processes
were taking place together, and their mutual interactions
are more complicated than one might expect. It is
obvious that cultural assimilation by indigenous people
of an ideological ‘Package’ was important; but so too
was the arrival of individual people from the steppes
and Pontic area. Their significance derives from their
social rank, and the archetype is the single burial from
Bleckendorf, Lkr. Aschersleben-Staßfurt (Saxony-Anhalt)
in Germany (Behrens 1952) (Fig. 49). We do not
know if this man journeyed farther to the west than
anyone else, yet his equipment and burial rite was
typical for the Yamnaya culture. An early tanged knife,
a copper awl, bone hammerhead pin, and a decorated
beaker accompanied the skeleton in a deep pit. The
radiocarbon determination places it around the 27th
century BC (14C: 4080±20 bp [KIA-162]; 1-Sigma:
2850–2500 BC: J. Müller 1999). The nearest parallels
are found in Moldavia at the Dnestr River and in the
Ukraine.


http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bleckendorf_BB.png

Yes, this sample had a Corded Ware beaker, but if we consider pottery making as a female craft, his wife could very well have been a Corded Ware woman. His male prestige item is a copper dagger in the Yamnaya/Bell Beaker style instead of a Corded Ware axe. The Yamnaya/Bell Beaker classification puts him squarely in the L23 conversation. This is not very far-fetched when you consider that twenty miles away and, one or two generations later we have the ninth oldest date… none other than the Kromsdorf R-M343 sample! The Kromsdorf cemetery also had an R-M269 sample that was not radiocarbon dated. Since individual SNPs were called, not much more is known about their genetics. Saxony-Anhalt samples continue to dominate until we get to our eighteenth oldest sample RISE563. He is our oldest R-P312 (and R-U152) and also the first sample found south of the Danube.

While this does not mean that Saxony-Anhalt is the “ground zero” expansion point for L11, it would help explain a lot of what we know about L11 so far, namely:

1. Steppe Bell Beaker’s non-steppe ancestry needs a population with Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) matching that of Globular Amphora Culture (GAC) or the Funnelbeaker Culture.
2. Bell Beaker samples from Rhenish Bell Beaker (Netherlands and Britain) have more steppe ancestry than other Steppe Bell Beaker samples.
3. The great diversity of Y-DNA groups in Csepel and Vucedol, both in the form of L23 and non-R1b. If L11 took this route, some may have stayed behind while the rest kept moving. Perhaps an early escape from the Great Hungarian Plain can be traced through tumuli as far west as Slovakia and the Austrian Burgenland. Tracing Lockenringe is another option.
4. The founder effects (L2 in the Bell Beaker East Group and L21 in Britain) almost calls for a centralized P312 or L11-only group with no other haplogroups, namely Z2103 nor R1a and certainly not non-R haplogroups.
5. A place where U106 was not too far to the east, at least not far enough so that it could not appear (without R1a) meaningful numbers just as the Bell Beaker Culture was starting to fade.
6. The lack of R1b in Corded Ware samples. These early dates make it so that R1b is not needed in Corded Ware.

So we have a very early Yamnaya/Bell Beaker man in Bleckendorf, Saxony-Anhalt, we have a very early R-M343+ man in Kromsdorf, Saxony-Anhalt and we have two later L11+ Bell Beaker samples from Quedlinburg, Saxony-Anhalt (I0805 and I0806). So, that raises the question... was Saxony-Anhalt the main expansion area for L11 and/or P312?

Am I wrong, or that Bleckendorf gentleman has got a flat occiput? It could be similar, also in Y-DNA, to that other guy with the flat occiput from Poland...

Romilius
03-28-2018, 11:43 AM
Another thing... I'm not an English mother-tongue speaker... may I ask what "awl" does mean? I see a strange copper object, but I can't find a suited translation in my language of "awl". Thanks in advance friends.

R.Rocca
03-28-2018, 11:52 AM
Another thing... I'm not an English mother-tongue speaker... may I ask what "awl" does mean? I see a strange copper object, but I can't find a suited translation in my language of "awl". Thanks in advance friends.

Un punteruolo di rame.

rms2
03-28-2018, 03:00 PM
Am I wrong, or that Bleckendorf gentleman has got a flat occiput? It could be similar, also in Y-DNA, to that other guy with the flat occiput from Poland...

Hard to tell from just that photo. One would think Harrison and Heyd would have mentioned it (maybe they did someplace?).

razyn
03-28-2018, 03:20 PM
Another thing... I'm not an English mother-tongue speaker... may I ask what "awl" does mean?

Here is a little pun in English (awl and the more universal word "all" sound the same). I saved it as a screen shot, because my grandfather was a harness maker and I actually have one of his awls from about 1893. I suppose one of my sons or grandsons will get it, there are five of them, but only one awl.

22371

Romilius
03-28-2018, 03:32 PM
Un punteruolo di rame.

Thank you very much. At first I translated it as "spillo" or "spillone"... but I didn't find those suited for such an object.

R.Rocca
03-28-2018, 04:05 PM
This is the route that most intrigues me (markups including the blue dot location of Kromsdorf is obviously mine):

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bleckendorf_Dispersal.png

This stands out from Ivanova:


Włodarczak reconstructed the Danube way of westward migration of the Yamnaya
tribes [Włodarczak 2010]. The routes of migration to Alfeld could be restored
based on archaeological finds with the use of written sources and historic data from
later epochs, e.g., about the migration of Medieval nomads to Pannonia. Pechenegs
and Cumans mastered three ways from the southern Rus steppes to the central European
Plain, to Hungary: the first, through the Iron Gates; the second, through the
southern Carpathians in the headwaters of the Olt, Mures and Szomes rivers; the
third, from the Upper Siret and Prut rivers to the Tisza [Rasovskiy 1993: 3].

The first two ways were connected with crossing over the River Prut, while the
third way did not require crossing major water obstacles. According to Dergachev,
the Yamnaya tribes got to the Middle and Upper Tisza River area on the Suchava
highland road, which ran in the north of Transylvania [Dergachev 1986: 81]. Ciugudean
reconstructed the movement of the Yamnaya tribes to Transylvania by the
rivers of Mures and Szomes [Ciugudean 2011: 29–30]. Meanwhile, the way along
the Danube or the Carpathian hollow was not the only one used in the relations
between the Budzhak and the Corded Ware cultures. We may also speak about
the movement towards the west (north-west). The amphorae, comparable to the
Corded Ware samples, found in the north of the Republic of Moldova, marked the
westward direction of the contacts along the Prut and the Dniester.

I don't know that these movements need to be related to the Budzhak Culture though, as there are some serious red flags. The main link that the Budzhak Culture has to Corded Ware is their similar amphorae. Corded Ware's amphorae is counter to Bell Beaker's handled jugs (a.k.a Nagyrev Jugs) in the same way that the Corded Ware axe is counter to the Bell Beaker copper dagger. It's the reason why the Ivanova paper is entirely dedicated to Corded Ware links to Budzhak. If we take the close ties between Budzahak and Corded Ware as genetic, then we are right back to the big "R1a" problem. Also, the dating of Budzhak is a little sketchy since it was radiocarbon tested by a the Kiev lab whose dates have been discredited by academia.

In order to get around two big problems (R1a in Corded Ware, Z2103 along the Danube), I think the best scenario moves R-L51 tribes via Transyvania and into the Middle and Upper Tisza River area during Horvath's Pit Grave Period IV (2900/2800–2500/2400 cal BC). A small Yamnaya breakout group could have made a mad dash for the area of Saxony-Anhalt by ~2700-2600 BC. The Z2103 movement would have been along the Danube during the Early Pit Grave Period III (3300/3100–2900/2600 cal BC) which would explain the appearance in Vucedol. Due to their hillfort settlements, it looks like the Z2103 that helped form Vucedol (and associated Somogyvár-Vinkovci) took to a more sedentary lifestyle.

rms2
03-28-2018, 04:12 PM
I'm sure you noticed this, but for everyone else, the southern end of your green ellipse is in the Tisza River valley.

It's possible Budzhak encountered late Vucedol elements that altered it enough to produce a more BB-like ceramic ensemble.

rms2
03-28-2018, 04:47 PM
I don't want to make it sound like I'm wedded to the idea that Budzhak is the pre-Beaker culture. It just seems the best guess for me right now. I have gone through a couple of best-guesses already and am ready for the next one if the evidence seems to line up behind it.

Budzhak's left side crouched burial posture, its use of stone-lined cists under round burial mounds, its Steppe Bell Beaker-like beakers, and its inclusion of archer's equipment are the things swaying me in that direction.

rms2
03-28-2018, 06:59 PM
Remember when we were waiting for the Olalde et al big Bell Beaker behemoth (for over a year, I think)? At least we had word ahead of time that it was coming.

Too bad we don't have similar word of a big behemoth paper on the Indo-Europeans-into-Europe story. Wonder if I'll live to see such a thing.

Guess I should be glad for what we have, because I never really thought we would see it, and Olalde et al vindicated what a number of us having been arguing - against great odds - for a long time. What we've found out about Steppe Bell Beaker is really exciting and gratifying. I am grateful for it.

rms2
03-28-2018, 08:41 PM
When I saw this thread I really got excited and was hoping it would take off. I still hope some other folks will jump in and contribute (but without the aggravating R1b-didn't-come-from-the-steppe schtick).

rms2
03-28-2018, 09:40 PM
Razyn just announced over in a thread in the ancient dna subforum that Jean Manco passed away this past Sunday, 25 March 2018, in hospice care. I knew she had cancer for some time and that she was in hospice care, but she asked me not to say anything, so I kept quiet about it.

I mention it here because Jean was an early advocate of a steppe/Indo-European origin for R1b-M269, back when it took some guts to advocate for that. She was brilliant, and I considered her a good friend, even though I only knew her via the internet (but since 2006).

We have lost a real giant and a great friend.

Atque vale, soror!

Capitalis
03-28-2018, 10:30 PM
When I saw this thread I really got excited and was hoping it would take off. I still hope some other folks will jump in and contribute (but without the aggravating R1b-didn't-come-from-the-steppe schtick).

I don't have anything to contribute except moral support and to say keep going any time you have new ideas.

Off-topic but my Eurogenes K15 4-way oracle came to mind when viewing the migration map you posted.

1 Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Romanian @ 4.520121

No need to reply, keep your thread on track. :)

Romilius
03-29-2018, 01:21 PM
I think, but I surely am wrong, that some CW groups were heavily or totally R1b, both Z2103 and L11/L51.

R.Rocca
03-29-2018, 01:50 PM
I may be reading this wrong, but it seems like the Budzhak Culture develops as a result of interactions between the already established Corded Ware Sub-Carpathian Group and Late Yamnaya. The importance of archery equipment in graves begins in the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group in PhaseIIIA. This phase is dated to 2550-2450 BC, which is slightly younger than Bleckendorf and the Kromsdorf R-M343+ samples. The Zlota Culture, a Corded Ware-GAC hybrid group also heavily decorates their graves with archery equipment. Again, the issue is with the heavy R1a (and even some I2a2) in Corded Ware groups.

The archery conversation reminded me of the Göhlitzsch Corded Ware stone. Interestingly, Göhlitzsch is (you guessed it) in Saxony-Anhalt about 13 miles away from the oldest Bell Beaker samples. This is what Jan Turek had to say about the site:


The Bell Beaker depiction of a bow on the figural grave stone (157 cm high, 85 cm wide) from Petit Chasseur (Gallay 2011) has a predecessor in the Corded Ware tomb interior incised decoration from Leuna-Göhlitzsch (Merseburg District) showing a bow and quiver arrows (194 cm long, 95 cm wide; see Behrens 1973, Probst 1991, 403).

If it is not clear from the picture, the quiver is the triangle like shape on the left and is full of arrows. A very small battle axe can be seen between the quiver and the left edge of the bow. Although the tomb may have been used as early by the TRB derived Salzmünde (3400-3000 BC) and/or Bernburg (3100-2700 BC) Cultures, the chamber finds - an amphora, a faceted battle axe, as well as a copper ring and a flint blade - all belong to the Corded Ware Culture. The image of the axe on another stone in the cave also represents a Corded Ware axe.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Gohlitzsch_Relex_Bow_and_Quiver.jpg

rms2
03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
As I understand it, Budzhak first arose on the NW coast of the Black Sea and did not come into contact with Corded Ware and GAC until it moved north along the Prut River valley. I could be wrong, but it seems more likely to me that the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group picked up the habit of depositing archery equipment in burials from Budzhak or Steppe Bell Beaker than the other way around, since that practice was not general in Corded Ware, but we would have to know who was actually doing it first.

Clearly Budzhak practiced a different burial rite than Corded Ware. Budzhak buried its important men crouched on their left sides, like Steppe Bell Beaker, often in stone-lined cists (also like Steppe Bell Beaker). Most CW burials had a right side crouched posture for men, although I understand Zlota CW sometimes used stone-lined cist burials, as well.

Until we get some dna from the likely suspects, we won't know for sure.

R.Rocca
03-29-2018, 04:07 PM
As I understand it, Budzhak first arose on the NW coast of the Black Sea and did not come into contact with Corded Ware and GAC until it moved north along the Prut River valley. I could be wrong, but it seems more likely to me that the Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware group picked up the habit of depositing archery equipment in burials from Budzhak or Steppe Bell Beaker than the other way around, since that practice was not general in Corded Ware, but we would have to know who was actually doing it first.

Clearly Budzhak practiced a different burial rite than Corded Ware. Budzhak buried its important men crouched on their left sides, like Steppe Bell Beaker, often in stone-lined cists (also like Steppe Bell Beaker). Most CW burials had a right side crouched posture for men, although I understand Zlota CW sometimes used stone-lined cist burials, as well.

Until we get some dna from the likely suspects, we won't know for sure.

That's why I brought it up, because the Saxony-Anhalt dates seem too old for the sequence to have been Budzhak Culture -> Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware -> Saxony-Anhalt Bell Beaker. Either way, Włodarczak attributes the custom of equipping the burials with quivers full of arrows to the Middle Dnieper Culture.

A direct Budzhak Culture -> Steppe Bell Beaker movement seems to also have a problem of dating, because Steppe Bell Beaker seems to be older in Central Europe than in Eastern Europe. So, those movements still need those Great Hungarian Plains Yamnaya to be L11. If they got there via the north, we run into Corded Ware and the R1a problem. If they got there via the Danube we run into the Z2103 and additional haplogroups problem. I wonder if they used the intermediate Transylvania option and that way kept their L11 group unmixed. Handled pitchers are also seen in Transylvanian Yamnaya. From there they could have moved onto the Tisza River basin before moving further west via the Danube.

R.Rocca
03-29-2018, 04:19 PM
By the way, the Alkaliya quiver set burial is referenced in the Ivanova paper due to its flint axe which has close Corded Ware parallels. It was not included to highlight the importance of archery equipment in Budzhak. In fact, the Alkaliya burial is very far away from the Corded Ware interaction zone. In other publications it is simply referred to as a Yamnaya burial (see Map 2). Quiver burials are rare in Yamnaya, but explode during the Catacomb Culture period (Map 3).

http://r1b.org/imgs/Yamnaya_Catacomb_Quiver_Set_Burials.png

rms2
03-29-2018, 06:11 PM
Maybe Budzhak isn't the answer, but it's old enough to be right. And Alkaliya being far from the CW interaction zone is all the better, because it is in the Budzhak home zone near the Black Sea and is not a CW copycat. If it were, the man buried there wouldn't be crouched on his left side in a stone-lined pit. Crouched burials in stone-lined pits under a round mound were typical of Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba on the Black Sea coast, as well, and those people were probably the ancestors of the Budzhak people.

Budzhak needn't have been stopped by CW if it came through Malopolska to central Europe. It might also have come via the up-the-Prut-down-the-Tisza route to the Hungarian Plain.

I'm just hunting for some answers, and they aren't easy to come by.

MitchellSince1893
03-29-2018, 06:20 PM
That's why I brought it up, because the Saxony-Anhalt dates seem too old for the sequence to have been Budzhak Culture -> Kraków-Sandomierz Corded Ware -> Saxony-Anhalt Bell Beaker. Either way, Włodarczak attributes the custom of equipping the burials with quivers full of arrows to the Middle Dnieper Culture.

A direct Budzhak Culture -> Steppe Bell Beaker movement seems to also have a problem of dating, because Steppe Bell Beaker seems to be older in Central Europe than in Eastern Europe. So, those movements still need those Great Hungarian Plains Yamnaya to be L11. If they got there via the north, we run into Corded Ware and the R1a problem. If they got there via the Danube we run into the Z2103 and additional haplogroups problem. I wonder if they used the intermediate Transylvania option and that way kept their L11 group unmixed. Handled pitchers are also seen in Transylvanian Yamnaya. From there they could have moved onto the Tisza River basin before moving further west via the Danube.
Oh, You (and Alan) are proposing the "Goldilocks" route/zone? Not too north, not too south; not too R1a not too Z2103; not too corded ware, not too Balkan Farmer.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/f4/e5/daf4e557eccfbdfd5faf215a4e6a2683.png

Just trying to absorb and geographically connect what Richard and Alan have been saying over the last few days as it relates to haplogroups, cultures, cranial observations etc. along with my comments on red hair in Udmurtia and U152 subclades in Eastern Europe

jdean
03-29-2018, 06:53 PM
Oh, You (and Alan) are proposing the "Goldilocks" route/zone? Not too north, not too south; not too R1a not too Z2103; not too corded ware, not too Balkan Farmer.

That really tickled me, fingers crossed this pans out so we can use it in the R1b story : )

alan
03-29-2018, 07:52 PM
Oh, You (and Alan) are proposing the "Goldilocks" route/zone? Not too north, not too south; not too R1a not too Z2103; not too corded ware, not too Balkan Farmer.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/f4/e5/daf4e557eccfbdfd5faf215a4e6a2683.png

Just trying to absorb and geographically connect what Richard and Alan have been saying over the last few days as it relates to haplogroups, cultures, cranial observations etc. along with my comments on red hair in Udmurtia and U152 subclades in Eastern Europe

Simple truth is a,lack of data from far too many groups and subgroups and phases of various cultures in eastern Europe c 3300-2500 bc is all that is stopping us knowing the truth. You can see from the branching just below L11 and especially P312 that it was starting to flourish prior to 2550bc. So it should turn up in pre-beaker times with a bit more testing. It's not as hopeless as looking for pre-L11 L51 where the tree indicates bare survival. I do think that the focus on the Goldilocks zone is looking in the right zone but it's a big area!

dsm
03-30-2018, 09:48 AM
EDIT (Fixed link to Genetiker blog)
I have been following this very interesting thread and it is well worth the time. An issue that is very topical now that the Olalde et al., study has been published.

What is interesting is the discovery of B/B P312 & U106 ancient burials esp around the region associated with the Únětice culture.
It was very good to see Richard Rocca come up with his B/B U106 finds with both P312 & U106 are showing up in Bell Beaker burials. My group belong to the smaller 3rd brother of P312 & U106. It is S1194. My own research into our areas of possible location, and based initially on the paper by N.Myres et al, 'A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe', placed us (we were L11* back then), as having hot-spots in the Sth Baltic, in England (mostly the border areas), and in the Sth Alps. We can find historical narratives that offer plausible histories for how L11* may have reached the other 2 places from the Sth Baltic, but it is not proven yet.

However what would be really great is if we could find evidence of S1194 in ancient burials. A month ago Iain McDonald emailed me to alert us to the possibility that a researcher had done an analysis of the Olalde B/B data and identified a possible S1194 burial among them. We tried to get a validation from the researcher in question (Genetiker - aka Robert Smith), but after 4 weeks have had no replies. You can imagine our disappointment at not being able to adequately confirm what should be a monumental find for us all.

The Burial in question is labelled E09568. In the Olalde database from their B/B study it is listed as burial E09568_d). And is grave 8 at the burial site called 'Hugo-Eckener-Strasser (Augsburg, Germany)'.

Genetiker posted a page at https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-e09568/ where he identifies E09568 (we are sure he means E09568_d) where he has 4 positive calls for S1194 (they are towards the bottom of the page).
The original post about his analysis, and our posts to him can be seen in this link (We matched his calls to S1194 kits).
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/19/y-snp-calls-for-bell-beaker-genomes/ (See posts at the bottom).

We are hoping that someone here might pick up the baton and see if the S1194 calls can be substantiated. If so then we will have more information as to L11 sub-clades from the approximate region where the Únětice culture existed. Admittedly Augsburg isn't exactly in the Bohemia area but close enough to be significant especially with this date taken from their supplementary material = 4,400 ybp to 4,200 ybp (this is an archeological age not from carbon dating).

If Richard Rocca is willing to scan that Olalde sample and try to validate an S1194 call, it would be a great day for us and we believe very valuable knowledge re L11 itself. Richard please let us know if you are able to look at this sample. The entries for S1194 are part of the tree at the R1b Basal Subclades project. The tree was built by Atanas Kumbarov.
In the 2nd link above, in the comments section, I have placed a screen grab from the top part of the Kumbarov tree showing the matching kits.

Thanks

Doug Marker
S1194 Project

R.Rocca
03-31-2018, 01:43 PM
Oh, You (and Alan) are proposing the "Goldilocks" route/zone? Not too north, not too south; not too R1a not too Z2103; not too corded ware, not too Balkan Farmer

Goldilocks! Even though we would be ripping off the term from the astronomers that are looking for habitable planets, I like it! Outside of all of the things it’s not, it is also a hunt for what it is, anotherwords an area entirely made up of L11 clans and nothing else.

Bollox79
03-31-2018, 02:12 PM
Saxony-Anhalt immediately brings to mind the Nebra Sky disk and Unetice... Dr. Iain and I were discussing reasons for Unetice to leave Prague area (collapse of bronze production and other factors) and move West? From the reading I was doing before I was distracted by the Bavarian U106 guys (heh) it appears a good bit of Unetice may have ended up in Germany (naturally moving West and MBA amber trade increased in Germany - EBA amber trade was more centralized on Czech Unetice areas) and I often wonder if a good bit of U106 (now that L48, Z18, and even Z156 (I think these reads are good) has been found in Migration era remains) had moved up there and then around the area through the years from B.C. times to A.D. times (with a mind for migration era peoples - the Lombards being L48 and more "northern" and the possibly Franks/Alamanni being more Western i.e. Z156 which may (as we get more samples and positive SNPs) be backed up by House of Wettin being DF98 and from the research I did very likely to have been descended from Frankish or at least Migration era emerging elites etc. Just some random thoughts. We need more testing in Northern Germany and Germany in general (every where really!).

MitchellSince1893
03-31-2018, 08:35 PM
Goldilocks! Even though we would be ripping off the term from the astronomers that are looking for habitable planets, I like it! Outside of all of the things it’s not, it is also a hunt for what it is, anotherwords an area entirely made up of L11 clans and nothing else.

To avoid ripping off the astromonical term “Goldilocks zone” we can just refer to it as the “Goldilocks Route”

dsm
03-31-2018, 11:59 PM
Saxony-Anhalt immediately brings to mind the Nebra Sky disk and Unetice... Dr. Iain and I were discussing reasons for Unetice to leave Prague area (collapse of bronze production and other factors) and move West? From the reading I was doing before I was distracted by the Bavarian U106 guys (heh) it appears a good bit of Unetice may have ended up in Germany (naturally moving West and MBA amber trade increased in Germany - EBA amber trade was more centralized on Czech Unetice areas) and I often wonder if a good bit of U106 (now that L48, Z18, and even Z156 (I think these reads are good) has been found in Migration era remains) had moved up there and then around the area through the years from B.C. times to A.D. times (with a mind for migration era peoples - the Lombards being L48 and more "northern" and the possibly Franks/Alamanni being more Western i.e. Z156 which may (as we get more samples and positive SNPs) be backed up by House of Wettin being DF98 and from the research I did very likely to have been descended from Frankish or at least Migration era emerging elites etc. Just some random thoughts. We need more testing in Northern Germany and Germany in general (every where really!).

It almost seems (to me) a given that as the metal manufacturing trade declined in Unetice Culture, that many of the peoples would move north to where the trade and metal working still had great potential (i.e. the Sth Baltic). The advantage of the Baltic was the ability to grow water borne trade & some of the great ports of the much later Hansa League began as trading villages on the Sth Baltic (i.e. Lübeck, to Stralsund to Danzig/Gdansk etc: (I counted 12 such later towns & ports just between Lubeck and Gdansk).

The Bronze Age 'Tollense battle' area just below Stralsund, is surely very strong evidence of how important that area had become after the decline of the Unetice Culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense

Doug

etrusco
04-30-2018, 07:41 AM
What you call yamnaia package does not come from the steppe…..it was already in late neolithic/copper age in central europe in the remedello culture…

R.Rocca
04-30-2018, 12:45 PM
What you call yamnaia package does not come from the steppe…..it was already in late neolithic/copper age in central europe in the remedello culture…

It certainly didn't originate in Remedello. From Jeunesse (2017):


Gimbutas had indeed identified a wave from the
steppes dated to the end of the fourth millennium
and very pertinently thought its origins were to
be searched for in the Maikop culture, but she did
not apprehend that this wave had deep historical
consequences only in southern Europe; in other
words she was not able to identified the
preferential route spreading from the North of the
Black Sea to Andalusia through the Italian
Peninsula. As far as I am concerned, this event
corresponds to the first great wave of
influences from the Steppes.

Furthermore, we have the following from Kılınç et al (2016):


Intriguingly, the Iceman/Remedello group was more similar
to Kumtepe than to Boncuklu, Barcın, Tepecik-Çiftlik, or
European Neolithic individuals. We further found that both
Kumtepe and the Iceman/Remedello group carried more
CHG alleles than other Neolithic populations (Figure 3C).
This pattern of additional CHG allele sharing simultaneously
observed in Iceman/Remedello and in Kumtepe is not
mirrored in convergent allele sharing with other European
hunter-gatherers (Figures S3F and S3G). We also found
that Tepecik-Çiftlik individuals were consistently closer to
Iceman/Remedello and to Kumtepe than to any other
Anatolian or European early Neolithic population, including
their contemporary Barcın and the neighboring Boncuklu
(Figure 3D). These results point to gene flow from an
eastern source into Chalcolithic Kumtepe and later into
Europe, which could have crossed central Anatolia already
before the Chalcolithic.

etrusco
04-30-2018, 03:18 PM
Daniela Castagna: Studio_preliminare_sulle_sepolture_neolitiche_del_ territorio_mantovano

Here's a well documented study about a corded ware burial ( E-W oriented, without the gender differentiation to be honest) from the square mouthed pottery culture of mantova's territory ( few kilometers from remedello and mid V millennium but with older origins!!).



Single grave in italy:from De Mariniis ( 2013) who about Remedello burials says:

. Il rito funerario esclusivo è quello dell’inumazione individuale. Da questo punto di vista Remedello prosegue LA TRADIZIONE NEOLITICA DELL'AREA PADANA( understood my friend no need of anatolia or maykop really!!)e nello stesso tempo fa parte della vasta area delle sepolture individuali che nella piena età del Rame con la diffusione della cultura della
Schnurkeramik fino ai Paesi Bassi e all’altopiano elvetico abbraccia tutta l’Europa centrale e orientale.

Only to say that Remedello is some 400/500 years before Yamna and 700 years before Corded Ware!

Remedello skulls: initial trend toward brachychepalization that was to explode in BB times.

If BB is from the steppe I ask you how many full fledged BB burials we have on the steppe? Just we have to free ourselves from the mental prison that leads us to think that everything must come from the east and the steppe.

jdean
04-30-2018, 03:27 PM
If BB is from the steppe I ask you how many full fledged BB burials we have on the steppe? Just we have to free ourselves from the mental prison that leads us to think that everything must come from the east and the steppe.

Sorry but that's a BS argument, children postdate their parents not the other way round.

etrusco
04-30-2018, 03:56 PM
Jdean

Mind the language, bullies will never have the last say……

Just be humble and take a map of bell beaker expansion: it goes from portugal to eastern poland and from sicily to western norway… now if it came from eastern europe how is that it managed to reach portugal roll over italy and southern europe and scandinavia and the british isle but…it didn't get to ukraine. The BB diffusion zone speaks clearly in favor of an origin in central western europe .

Webb
04-30-2018, 04:12 PM
Jdean

Mind the language, bullies will never have the last say……

Just be humble and take a map of bell beaker expansion: it goes from portugal to eastern poland and from sicily to western norway… now if it came from eastern europe how is that it managed to reach portugal roll over italy and southern europe and scandinavia and the british isle but…it didn't get to ukraine. The BB diffusion zone speaks clearly in favor of an origin in central western europe .

Anyone who only had three posts and jumps right in without any reference to experience in this topic is most typically a prior banned forum member who has created a new account. I’m just saying.

etrusco
04-30-2018, 04:22 PM
Webb

I'm not a banned member.

Ruderico
04-30-2018, 05:33 PM
Or a sockpuppet.
There are even members who enjoy talking to themselves, which is both hilarious and really sad.

R.Rocca
04-30-2018, 05:45 PM
Daniela Castagna: Studio_preliminare_sulle_sepolture_neolitiche_del_ territorio_mantovano

Here's a well documented study about a corded ware burial ( E-W oriented, without the gender differentiation to be honest) from the square mouthed pottery culture of mantova's territory ( few kilometers from remedello and mid V millennium but with older origins!!).


Obviously this is a VBQ burial and not a Corded Ware burial. VBQ was not even a Copper Age culture, let alone the predecessor of Yamnaya, Corded Ware or Bell Beaker. Obviously no steppe ancestry will be found in VBQ remains.



Single grave in italy:from De Mariniis ( 2013) who about Remedello burials says:

. Il rito funerario esclusivo è quello dell’inumazione individuale. Da questo punto di vista Remedello prosegue LA TRADIZIONE NEOLITICA DELL'AREA PADANA( understood my friend no need of anatolia or maykop really!!)e nello stesso tempo fa parte della vasta area delle sepolture individuali che nella piena età del Rame con la diffusione della cultura della
Schnurkeramik fino ai Paesi Bassi e all’altopiano elvetico abbraccia tutta l’Europa centrale e orientale.


And yet there is the CHG ancestry in Remedello and Otzi. So obviously there is new movement of people that appears during the Copper Age that was not found in the Balkans nor Spain. It would be quite silly to not expect that Italy, sitting between the two, had a different genetic history. But don't take my word for it, take it from someone who has unpublished ancient DNA from the Alps:

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/06/23/cultura/le-trib-del-caucaso-che-arrivarono-ad-aosta-WRjEtblBpcDpTnOlw5czyK/pagina.html



Only to say that Remedello is some 400/500 years before Yamna and 700 years before Corded Ware!

Remedello skulls: initial trend toward brachychepalization that was to explode in BB times.


Yamnaya and Remedello are contemporaries and both start around ~3400/3300 BC. Obviously Yamnaya's predecessors (ex. Repin Culture) are older.



If BB is from the steppe I ask you how many full fledged BB burials we have on the steppe? Just we have to free ourselves from the mental prison that leads us to think that everything must come from the east and the steppe.

I think you've created the mental prison because nobody is saying that all cultural aspects came from the steppe.

rms2
04-30-2018, 06:26 PM
Jdean

Mind the language, bullies will never have the last say……

Just be humble and take a map of bell beaker expansion: it goes from portugal to eastern poland and from sicily to western norway… now if it came from eastern europe how is that it managed to reach portugal roll over italy and southern europe and scandinavia and the british isle but…it didn't get to ukraine. The BB diffusion zone speaks clearly in favor of an origin in central western europe .

Have you read The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738)?

If so, then you know that Kurgan Bell Beaker did not begin in Portugal and spread from there. Likewise, if you really knew anything about Bell Beaker as a whole, you would know that the early Iberian kind was markedly different from the Kurgan kind, culturally, physically, and genetically. You would also know that Kurgan Bell Beaker is characterized by steppe autosomal dna and by R1b-L23, which is a y-dna haplogroup of the steppe and not of Italian or even Portuguese origin. You would know that neither of those is true of early Iberian Bell Beaker nor are those things true of Remedello.

Mr. Snow
04-30-2018, 06:53 PM
R1b-L23, which is a y-dna haplogroup of the steppe and not of Italian or even Portuguese origin. You would know that neither of those is true of early Iberian Bell Beaker nor are those things true of Remedello.

R1b-L23 has the exact same distribution as J2(Both Hajji Firuz Y-DNA) in Europe, concentrated in southeast Europe specially Italy, which is a completely ignored region in terms of aDNA
https://i.imgur.com/g99Sz9c.jpg

We also know R1b-L51* brother clades of L51 are concentrated in northern Italy and southern France and that variance of P310 is highest in southern France, indicating origin there
https://i.imgur.com/Sr89Lny.png

So the path of R1b-L23 is very clear from Shulaveri-Shomu to southeast Europe to southern France, from where it spread to central/northern Europe
https://i.imgur.com/HC7b7BG.png

Central European BB were a mixture of south France BB males and Corded Ware females obviously as they are invading and conquering Corded Ware territory.

rms2
04-30-2018, 07:04 PM
Groan. I used R1b-L23 as a rubric for all the clades of L23, including those actually found in Kurgan Bell Beaker, like R1b-P312 (and its subclades, like R1b-DF27, R1b-L2, and R1b-L21) and R1b-Z2103. Its distribution is quite a bit different from that of J2.

That old R1b-L51* map was about modern men who aren't really L51* at all but whose terminal SNP, at that time, had not yet been discovered.

The "Corded Ware wives" argument is hogwash. The paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), had this to say about Bell Beaker mtDNA:



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).


In other words, Bell Beaker did not have a Corded Ware mtDNA profile, which is what one would expect if BB's women came via Corded Ware. Instead, its mtDNA profile most closely fit Globular Amphora, which is not surprising, given that Olalde et al found that the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker was a close fit for GAC and Swedish TRB.

rms2
04-30-2018, 07:31 PM
I think we may have discussed in this thread the possibility that the Budzhak subculture of Yamnaya may be the mysterious pre- or proto-Bell Beaker culture. I won't go back over the reasons for thinking that. Anyway, if Budzhak people crossed the northern slopes of the Carpathians to get into Central Europe, whether via Malopolska or the Tisza River valley, they had to traverse GAC territory. Maybe we're talking mostly younger sons looking to carve out their own fortunes, who had few or no females to bring with them. They had to pick up brides among the natives. That might explain the Neolithic farmer element in Kurgan Bell Beaker and Kurgan Bell Beaker's GAC-like mtDNA profile.

Mr. Snow
04-30-2018, 07:37 PM
Groan. I used R1b-L23 as a rubric for all the clades of L23, including those actually found in Kurgan Bell Beaker, like R1b-P312 (and its subclades, like R1b-DF27, R1b-L2, and R1b-L21)
R1b-P312 has it's highest variance in southern France, meaning it originated there.


That old R1b-L51* map was about modern men who aren't really L51* at all but whose terminal SNP, at that time, had not yet been discovered.
R. Rocca who made the map said they are brother clades of L51.


The "Corded Ware wives" argument is hogwash. The paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540) had this to say about Bell Beaker mtDNA:



In other words, Bell Beaker did not have a Corded Ware mtDNA profile, which is what one would expect if BB's women came via Corded Ware. Instead, its mtDNA profile most closely fit Globular Amphora, which is not surprising, given that Olalde et al found that the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker was a close fit for GAC and Swedish TRB.

This comment shows you really struggle with basic reading comprehension, the study is saying that GAC is closer to BB than to Srubnaya , Corded Ware and Yamnaya, if other farmer groups were included GAC would be closer to them. There is Bell Beaker in Spain, Italy, France so obviously GAC mtDNA is closer to it than to Steppe groups.

etrusco
04-30-2018, 07:52 PM
Richard Rocca

Even if I'am not a genius I am not so dumb to confuse SMP with corded ware. What my post was saying was that many features that are linked with "kurgan invasion" like single grave ( E-W oriented or NE-SW oriented) presence of axes ( see the study of Petrequin about the diffusion from Armorica to Ukraine and from Sicily to Scandinavia of the polished stone axes of alpine origin in the early-middle neolithic and the presence of a warrior ideology), daggers, bows and even halberds PREDATES the presence of steppe people west of ukraine . Is it so "sock puppet" just to wonder if the steppe people were conquerors that triggered a language change or just migrants that integrated in a cultural world that pre-existed them? maybe with times and perhaps due to their bigger fertility rates they became genetically dominant ( but here again there's who thinks otherwise like Balanovsky 2017).

rms2
04-30-2018, 08:12 PM
R1b-P312 has it's highest variance in southern France, meaning it originated there.

That argument would have been lame back in 2007 before we had ancient y-dna, but it's even lamer now. First off, I doubt that P312 reaches its highest variance in southern France. Second, even if it does, southern France in 2018 has had a long history since the 3rd millennium BC as a receiver of various peoples. I imagine the P312 variance in modern New York City is probably pretty high, as well.



R. Rocca who made the map said they are brother clades of L51.

I think Rich made that map in 2012 or thereabouts. Regardless, it is a map of modern men who were R1b-L51 at that time simply because their genuine terminal SNP had not yet been discovered or they had not been sufficiently tested.




This comment shows you really struggle with basic reading comprehension, the study is saying that GAC is closer to BB than to Srubnaya , Corded Ware and Yamnaya, if other farmer groups were included GAC would be closer to them. There is Bell Beaker in Spain, Italy, France so obviously GAC mtDNA is closer to it than to Steppe groups.

That is ridiculous. Sound reasoning involves more than one step and includes making inferences. If GAC has an mtDNA profile that is closer to Bell Beaker than to Corded Ware, Srubnaya, and Yamnaya, then Bell Beaker could not have a Corded Ware-like mtDNA profile. If it did, GAC's mtDNA profile would have been equally close to both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. And, if Bell Beaker acquired its steppe dna and its steppe culture from taking Corded Ware wives, it should have a Corded Ware mtDNA profile.

Besides, what I quoted from that paper says that GAC's mtDNA was "clearly separated from those populations [Srubnaya, Corded Ware, and Yamnaya]".

The "Corded Ware wives" argument is just preposterous. I said some of what follows before, but it's worth repeating.

How exactly would women create the warlike, horse-riding, patriarchal, Indo-European kurgan culture that is Kurgan Bell Beaker by marrying - what? - Neolithic farmers? (And farmers belonging almost exclusively to a y-haplogroup thus far not found among Neolithic farmers, R1b-L51.)

If those farmers formed that culture by learning from their R1a fathers-in-law and brothers-in-law, how did they keep it so overwhelmingly R1b? Surely cultures in such close cooperation and collaboration would exchange daughters and sons, would they not? Does one-way exogamy, with the exclusive target being R1b males, make any sense?

Usually whichever sex is the local part of patrilocal or matrilocal has the culture that dominates, yet the idea that CW women imparted the steppe autosomal dna to Bell Beaker reverses that. It has women going to live with Neolithic farmer husbands and, instead of adopting their farmer ways, converting their husbands to the ways of their CW fathers and brothers.

And one has to imagine those CW women saying to their Neolithic farmer husbands, "Be sure not to be buried with CW axes but with bows and arrows instead. And make sure to bury us crouched on our right sides, like our fathers, and yourselves crouched on your left sides, like our mothers!"

That just does not make sense. At all.

Romilius
04-30-2018, 08:36 PM
And yet there is the CHG ancestry in Remedello and Otzi. So obviously there is new movement of people that appears during the Copper Age that was not found in the Balkans nor Spain. It would be quite silly to not expect that Italy, sitting between the two, had a different genetic history. But don't take my word for it, take it from someone who has unpublished ancient DNA from the Alps:

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/06/23/cultura/le-trib-del-caucaso-che-arrivarono-ad-aosta-WRjEtblBpcDpTnOlw5czyK/pagina.html



Yamnaya and Remedello are contemporaries and both start around ~3400/3300 BC. Obviously Yamnaya's predecessors (ex. Repin Culture) are older.



I think you've created the mental prison because nobody is saying that all cultural aspects came from the steppe.

In the article Olga Rickards speaks about Yamna... I'm Italian mother-tongue... but it's really difficult to understand what the journalist wanted to say quoting Olga Rickards and her statement about Yamna culture and its Bronze age arrival in Italy. Are the BB remains in Northern Italy bronze age? Or are they copper age?

etrusco
04-30-2018, 09:06 PM
Romillius

Bell Beaker in northern italy are copper age ( late).Then starting 2300/2220 BC we have Polada culture centered in the lombardy/ veneto lakes.

rms2
04-30-2018, 09:20 PM
This is from pages 27-28 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information concerning I2478, the northern Italian Kurgan Bell Beaker man. He was R1b-P312.



The site of Via Guidorossi at Parma, in the Po plain, was excavated in 2009 and corresponds to an advanced Bell Beaker period, dated to 2200–1930 years calBCE75.

Tomb number 1 contained two skeletons, labelled individuals A (US-8) and B (US-9). Both were placed into an excavated structure of about 2.2 x 2.2 meters, with an opening at the northeast corner. Individual A was a ~30-year-old woman placed in a south-north orientation, while individual B (I2478), the best preserved of both, was a 30-40-year-old male. This skeleton was placed with flexed legs on his left side, with his left arm also flexed and the right one extended. He was oriented north-south, with the head pointing north and the face looking to the east. Two Bell Beaker vessels, one decorated with incised triangles in a central band and the other undecorated, were placed at his feet, while two additional vessels were located close to the opening of the funerary structure. The decorated pottery is similar to objects found in other Bell Beaker Italian sites such as Rubiera (Reggio Emilia). Some lithic implements, including a remarkable knife, were found between the legs of individual B. The only similar lithic knife in a Bell Beaker context has been found at Fosso Conicchio near Viterbo. We obtained aDNA from both individuals:

I2477/Tomb1, ind A: 2200–1930 BCE

I2478/Tomb1, ind B: 2200–1930 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)

A second tomb, excavated in a sub-quadrangular form, contained three more skeletons, labelled A (US-12), B (US-13) and C (U-14), all of them placed in flexed position. Individuals A and C were 60 and 50-year-old males, respectively, while individual B, who was lying between them and in inverted orientation (north-south), was a 15- to 18 year-old young female. Several decorated Bell Beaker vessels were located within this second grave. The bipolar orientation of the Guidorossi burials – south-north for females and north-south for males, all facing to the east – points to traditions found in central European Bell Beaker sites, such as those from lower Austria and Moravia. We obtained aDNA data from one individual:

I1979/Tomb2, ind B: 2200–1930 BCE

etrusco
04-30-2018, 09:31 PM
rms

I don't know are you replying to my previous post? Of course in the bronze age of the po valley we have bell beaker burials that persisted. You can find many of them also in eastern veneto. Nevertheless bell beaker culture as a whole ceases to exist in the bronze age. In northern Italy since mid IV millennium we also the presence of the cremation especially in the mountains valley that continues with polada time, terramare culture, and then canegrate and golasecca periods.

R.Rocca
04-30-2018, 10:59 PM
rms

I don't know are you replying to my previous post? Of course in the bronze age of the po valley we have bell beaker burials that persisted. You can find many of them also in eastern veneto. Nevertheless bell beaker culture as a whole ceases to exist in the bronze age. In northern Italy since mid IV millennium we also the presence of the cremation especially in the mountains valley that continues with polada time, terramare culture, and then canegrate and golasecca periods.

Obviously Polada is descended from Central European Bell Beaker. Yes, there were customs like crouched burials in Western and Central Europe during the Chalcolithic, but it is pretty obvious that the steppe genetic component EHG was not as it only shows up in Corded Ware and then Bell Beaker.

alexfritz
04-30-2018, 11:31 PM
this is a good paper on VBQ
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267710267_People_dogs_and_wild_game_evidence_of_hu man-animal_relations_from_Middle_Neolithic_burials_and _personal_ornaments_in_northern_Italy_Documenta_Pr aehistorica_XXXVII_125-145

per funery offerings(arrowheads/game trophys/dogs) and mirrored in the sites faunal osteological records -a very hunting based network [MN 5thmil]; goes without saying it has 0.0 to do with the steppes in either direction def a network the late l.barfield described as of 'great transalpine interactions' whether the burial rite came via tisza-culture(<LBKalföld{szakalhat group) or direct from former LBK groups to the north, i dont know but the transalpine route adige<>eisack<>inn was an important and frequented route and in contrast to the later terremare genesis{deriving/migration from hungary/carpbasin) friuli is not part of VBQ genesis; remedello most prob inherited the burial rite from VBQ as it had it all from stone-cists to pits and stone circles with the sharp difference of course that the offerings now also incl copper tools and weapons with links to creatan and anatolian typology and if we learned anything from last years metallurgical analysis papers than these copper artifacts were from a tuscan ore network which prob stemmed from new anatolian(?troad) waves directly kilinc et al; keeping in mind however that I2477 still differed from this new wave and prob constitutes the unaffected previous VBQ pop whereas I4930 constitutes a new wave altogether latest by 1900bc;

George
05-01-2018, 12:26 AM
I think we may have discussed in this thread the possibility that the Budzhak subculture of Yamnaya may be the mysterious pre- or proto-Bell Beaker culture. I won't go back over the reasons for thinking that. Anyway, if Budzhak people crossed the northern slopes of the Carpathians to get into Central Europe, whether via Malopolska or the Tisza River valley, they had to traverse GAC territory. Maybe we're talking mostly younger sons looking to carve out their own fortunes, who had few or no females to bring with them. They had to pick up brides among the natives. That might explain the Neolithic farmer element in Kurgan Bell Beaker and Kurgan Bell Beaker's GAC-like mtDNA profile.

Just in passing, for what it's worth. In her 2012 article on the origin of the Budzhak culture, Ivanova claims that it was a further development (incl. the acquisition of classical "Yamna" traits) of the local populations which had earlier produced the Usatovo and Zhivotilovka cultures (and to some extent also the pre-Yamna Lower Mykhajlovka culture-- with its Majkop influenced components). Usatovo and Zhivotilovka were heavily fused with Trypilian elements moving into the steppes... So the Budzhaks which moved westward would have had a strong "farmer" genetic contribution already. I don't know where their GAC mtDNA originated. If it was from the nearby Ukrainian GAC communities, then the Trypilian content would also have been substantial there (since the Ukrainian GACs have been analyzed as taking predominantly "local" T. wives... Unfortunately we have as yet practically no DNA results from Usatovo, Zhivotilovka, Early Budzhak, Lower Mikhajlovka etc.. Very frustrating...

alan
05-01-2018, 12:53 AM
The high possible GAC female component in beaker compared to CW is a useful clue. The reason why beaker has more may be because the southeastern branch of GAC into the lower parts of the rivers around Ukraine, Moldova etc was surprisingly late and and only barely pre-beaker. In other words GAC groups occupied areas by 2550BC that they did not c 2800BC. The consequence of that is the same route could have been used twice but at different times resulting in different admixture. The beaker autosomal signal and the ancient dna y dna evidence do support a model that P312 was a late wave from the steppes or immediately steppe-bordering area c 2550BC, perhaps passing through a river. valley that the GAC culture had come to occupy by then.

Al

Larth
05-01-2018, 01:01 AM
And yet there is the CHG ancestry in Remedello and Otzi. So obviously there is new movement of people that appears during the Copper Age that was not found in the Balkans nor Spain. It would be quite silly to not expect that Italy, sitting between the two, had a different genetic history. But don't take my word for it, take it from someone who has unpublished ancient DNA from the Alps:

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/06/23/cultura/le-trib-del-caucaso-che-arrivarono-ad-aosta-WRjEtblBpcDpTnOlw5czyK/pagina.html

That article is confused and badly drafted, as often happens when newspapers talk about population genetics. It seems it refers to Yamnaya migrations, or in any case to a steppe-related culture.


È fra i massimi esperti del Dna antico. La Regione Valle d'Aosta le ha commissionato la ricerca su venti femori della tomba numero 2 dell’area megalitica di Saint-Martin de Corleans, quell’ettaro di terra bicolore, tra il nocciola chiaro e il caffé, che fa da ponte di civiltà tra Mediterraneo e Baltico. Dna che fa scrivere alla professoressa Rickards sull’origine caucasica di coloro che raggiunsero le Alpi dall’Anatolia. Ricorda la cultura Yamnaya che «ha colonizzato l’Europa centrale e l’Italia durante l’Età del bronzo». Un percorso ancora tutto da esplorare, una storia d’Europa che avrebbe un seme 25 mila fa, in quella popolazione di pastori che per fuggire alla glaciazione si rintanarono nel Caucaso.


Another article on the same subject, confused like the previous one. Anyway it is an archaeological site that has finds of at least 5 different historical phases.


È stato ipotizzato che tali genti, appartenenti a quegli Yamnaya che colonizzarono l’Europa Centrale durante l’età del Bronzo, provenissero dal Caucaso, viaggiando essenzialmente per via fluviale alla ricerca di metalli verso ovest: di esse vi sarebbero echi nell’epopea omerica e in diversi miti greci, come quello di Cadmo (seminatore di denti, da cui nascevano uomini armati), di Giasone (noto per il Vello d’oro e amante della barbara Medea) e perfino di Eracle, che giunse fino ai confini dell’Occidente. L’area di Aosta mantenne poi sempre valore sepolcrale, con molte altre tombe a cassetta e deposizioni di età celtica e romana, fino all’epoca medievale.


In reply to a question it is said that the tombs of Saint Martin contain remains of at least 66 individuals, both adults, mainly male, and children, buried and cremated. The biological picture shows a fairly homogeneous population in the cranial forms, characterized by short and wide morphologies, typical of the northern European Bell Beaker populations.


Quali popolazioni si sono succedute nel sito di San Martin de Corleans?

Le analisi antropologiche sono ancora in corso, ma si può segnalare che le tombe di Saint Martin contengono resti di almeno 66 individui, sia adulti, principalmente di sesso maschile, che bambini, inumati e cremati. Il quadro biologico mostra una popolazione abbastanza omogenea nelle forme craniche, caratterizzate da morfologie corte e larghe, tipiche delle popolazioni campaniformi dell’Europa settentrionale.

http://www.lindro.it/dal-caucaso-ad-aosta-il-passato-che-ritorna/

Romilius
05-01-2018, 08:24 AM
That article is confused and badly drafted, as often happens when newspapers talk about population genetics. It seems it refers to Yamnaya migrations, or in any case to a steppe-related culture.




Another article on the same subject, confused like the previous one. Anyway it is an archaeological site that has finds of at least 5 different historical phases.




In reply to a question it is said that the tombs of Saint Martin contain remains of at least 66 individuals, both adults, mainly male, and children, buried and cremated. The biological picture shows a fairly homogeneous population in the cranial forms, characterized by short and wide morphologies, typical of the northern European Bell Beaker populations.



http://www.lindro.it/dal-caucaso-ad-aosta-il-passato-che-ritorna/

Yes, Larth... that's my point: the article from La Stampa is very confused.

I tend to think that also in Italy we have two different Bell Beaker populations, like in Iberia.

Another think... that's only my rant: I'm in Italy, well, in San Marino now for some business... I entered yesterday a library and I found a book printed in april 2018 by Guido Barbujani about European genetic history. I would have bought it yesterday, if only I didn't forget my wallet. Anyway, I read some pages... there are a lot of references to Haak 2015 and Olalde 2017 when talking about the changement of Europe during the Bronze age.
Then, two thoughts passed my mind like thunderbolt: the first is that in Italy the Chalcolitic/late Neolithic is called Bronze age or early bronze age.... and the latter - that made me very upset - is that in Italy academics are busier in writing books about other's researches than in studying Etruscan and Roman and other protohistoric remains.

R.Rocca
05-01-2018, 01:31 PM
Yes, Larth... that's my point: the article from La Stampa is very confused.

I mentioned the site because Etrusco seemed to be insinuating that the single grave crouched burial was adopted from Italian groups when it is obvious it came from Yamnaya (steppe) and possibly Yamnaya adopted it from Maykop (Northern Caucasus).


I tend to think that also in Italy we have two different Bell Beaker populations, like in Iberia.

Sardinia has a lot of Bell Beaker material. I've said it elsewhere, but I have no doubt that they will be found to be like the Remedello and Iberian Bell Beaker I2a-M26 samples.


Another think... that's only my rant: I'm in Italy, well, in San Marino now for some business... I entered yesterday a library and I found a book printed in april 2018 by Guido Barbujani about European genetic history. I would have bought it yesterday, if only I didn't forget my wallet. Anyway, I read some pages... there are a lot of references to Haak 2015 and Olalde 2017 when talking about the changement of Europe during the Bronze age.
Then, two thoughts passed my mind like thunderbolt: the first is that in Italy the Chalcolitic/late Neolithic is called Bronze age or early bronze age.... and the latter - that made me very upset - is that in Italy academics are busier in writing books about other's researches than in studying Etruscan and Roman and other protohistoric remains.

If (and that's a big 'If") there was really an earlier Bell Beaker culture in Iberia, then they were likely Copper Age. In Italy it could be the same. Only Central European Bell Beaker movements will be considered Bronze Age.

Regarding Italian academics, they are very limited by a severe lack of funding. Fortunately several were involved in the Olalde paper.

Larth
05-02-2018, 03:18 PM
I tend to think that also in Italy we have two different Bell Beaker populations, like in Iberia.

I think so too.


Another think... that's only my rant: I'm in Italy, well, in San Marino now for some business... I entered yesterday a library and I found a book printed in april 2018 by Guido Barbujani about European genetic history. I would have bought it yesterday, if only I didn't forget my wallet. Anyway, I read some pages... there are a lot of references to Haak 2015 and Olalde 2017 when talking about the changement of Europe during the Bronze age.
Then, two thoughts passed my mind like thunderbolt: the first is that in Italy the Chalcolitic/late Neolithic is called Bronze age or early bronze age.... and the latter - that made me very upset - is that in Italy academics are busier in writing books about other's researches than in studying Etruscan and Roman and other protohistoric remains.

Lack of funds and other problems related more to the type of university organization. However Barbujani has done so many studies in the past. It's not up to him.

Romilius
05-02-2018, 03:36 PM
If (and that's a big 'If") there was really an earlier Bell Beaker culture in Iberia, then they were likely Copper Age. In Italy it could be the same. Only Central European Bell Beaker movements will be considered Bronze Age.

Regarding Italian academics, they are very limited by a severe lack of funding. Fortunately several were involved in the Olalde paper.

So, the Parma via Guidorossi samples are from Bronze age movements?

Romilius
05-02-2018, 03:37 PM
I think so too.



Lack of funds and other problems related more to the type of university organization. However Barbujani has done so many studies in the past. It's not up to him.

I see, you are right.

alan
05-02-2018, 07:42 PM
Surely we can now at least rule out the formation of the steppe beaker autosomal signal from a number of places? Place/time combos where the farmer substrate has been demonstrated by ancient DNA to be too Balkans/Danubian/ Cuc-Trip/ Mediterranean:Anatolian to realistically be where the classic steppe/P312 beaker signal formed.

alan
05-03-2018, 08:00 AM
I’ve been reading into the detail of GAC’s SE extension. It’s a later phase and the more south east the later it is. My feeling is the movement south eastwards could be partly due to displacement by CW people. Regardless it’s interesting that the late CT farmers show v little evidence of contact with GAC despite them having previously been open to influence from TRB. What this all means in that area between the Prut and Dnieper c 2900-2600BC isn’t clear and interpretation depends on too few radiocarbon dates. However I think there may be a time/space slot where a Yamnaya - like group unmixed with CT farmers might have mixed with the GAC culture to create the beaker signal. It may be about timing more than geography. The beaker signal may only have been created as late as 2600BC when GAC peoples had replaced the CT farmers in that area of steppe-farmer interface. That could explain the lack of Balkans type farmer in beaker. Finally, whoever provided the steppe Yamnaya type element in the beaker signal are very unlikely to have been groups who had long been at the CT/steppe tribes interface. They lack the admixture suggestive of that. It likely comes from a steppe group who were remote or aloof of such contacts during the period they took place and for some reason only started mixing with European farmers when they met the late southeastern extension of the GAC.

etrusco
05-03-2018, 10:23 AM
Alan
Just few questions from a "layman" perspective:
Reading your posts :
1) so the difference between Corded Ware and BBC do not stem from the type of farmers they mixed with . According to you both mixed only with GAC? Cause I assume CWC farmer component is from GAC too.
So R1b and R1a mixing with the same people.
2) You don't believe anymore in the ( Gimbutas) Vucedol/Yamna mixing in the birth of BBC?
I'm not pushing any agenda...just to understand.

R.Rocca
05-03-2018, 12:46 PM
So, the Parma via Guidorossi samples are from Bronze age movements?

Yes, their date of 2194–1939 calBCE was already well within the Early Bronze Age range.

moesan
05-04-2018, 06:38 PM
R1b-L23 has the exact same distribution as J2(Both Hajji Firuz Y-DNA) in Europe, concentrated in southeast Europe specially Italy, which is a completely ignored region in terms of aDNA
https://i.imgur.com/g99Sz9c.jpg

We also know R1b-L51* brother clades of L51 are concentrated in northern Italy and southern France and that variance of P310 is highest in southern France, indicating origin there
https://i.imgur.com/Sr89Lny.png

So the path of R1b-L23 is very clear from Shulaveri-Shomu to southeast Europe to southern France, from where it spread to central/northern Europe
https://i.imgur.com/HC7b7BG.png

Central European BB were a mixture of south France BB males and Corded Ware females obviously as they are invading and conquering Corded Ware territory.

I don't think the two first maps you show are good examples of a tight link between Y-R1b-L23 and Y-J2 (whose subclades BTW knew diverse stories) -
I think the today distribution of R1b-L23 - (what kind: absolute % or relative % among total Y-R1b?: difference!), I suppose relative - does not show a Transcaucasian origin but rather a Balkan one, or a proximity to the unknown but not too far true place of origin which is not Transcaucasia, and I think too L51 originate in Central Europe, not in West;
and no, to me, the mobile male spreaders of BB's is not by force the creator of it, and is not a pure Iberic one - it was phenotypically different from Iberian pop of the time (HGs+Neol+CHalco) and different from the typical CWC mean and from Megalithers of any sort -
it could be rather females which accompained the moves of these males from S-W to C- and N- Europe, at first at least, before return moves and some partial homogeneization of the network at autosomes level and mt-DNA level -
I think these different males could have been an autosomes complex of people formed around N-E Carpathians, whatever the "purity" of the Y-lineage;
the result is that as they seem very exogamic people (moving too quickly for family confort in the first stages of spreading?) and that they took auDNA here and there (it's evident on the specimen we have at hand concerning Central Europe); so their 'steppic' DNA is not by force their initial DNA; in short, I have not a ready answer, but I try to temper too precise answers, on both "sides", based on what we have to date -
I think a bunch of Y-R1b haplo's bearers of the time were issued from people almost without heavy 'steppic' element or even simply CHG (opposite to their R1b-Z2103 cousins, more eastern, had perhaps had time to cross with already ancient CHG element, since Neolithic) - the 'steppic' could have been acquired by exogamy in N- and C- Europe - no credo, just hypothesis -
don't be upset by this post, keep cool: I'm thinking at loud voice!

alan
05-04-2018, 06:42 PM
Is this L51 in Caspian steppe burials on the eurogenes post conformed?

jdean
05-04-2018, 07:15 PM
Is this L51 in Caspian steppe burials on the eurogenes post conformed?

If you're on about this (http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/open-analysis-thread-genetic-distance.html) post then that was repeating a post on Molgen from late January.

The person who reported on the conference (or repeated something he's been sent ?) said the 'book' (paper ?) was going to be out within 6 months and also appeared to admit there could have been mistakes writing it down.

Sorry I'm being a bit vague but I'm having to go by Google Translate : )

vettor
05-04-2018, 08:31 PM
That article is confused and badly drafted, as often happens when newspapers talk about population genetics. It seems it refers to Yamnaya migrations, or in any case to a steppe-related culture.




Another article on the same subject, confused like the previous one. Anyway it is an archaeological site that has finds of at least 5 different historical phases.




In reply to a question it is said that the tombs of Saint Martin contain remains of at least 66 individuals, both adults, mainly male, and children, buried and cremated. The biological picture shows a fairly homogeneous population in the cranial forms, characterized by short and wide morphologies, typical of the northern European Bell Beaker populations.



http://www.lindro.it/dal-caucaso-ad-aosta-il-passato-che-ritorna/

Should we ignore this paper
https://tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&needAccess=true

which basically states all (most ) samples from Volterra and sites in the north have a "beyond or in the alps origin ".............clearly they too have BB central european origin

etrusco
05-04-2018, 09:10 PM
A couple of things:

In the paper it is stated that Ligurians were non-indoeuropean. what we know now for sure thanks to the work of Zavaroni and others is that the Ligures spoke a centum indoeuropean language ( probably an intermediate one between proper celtic and umbrian).

Also the old story about the gallic invasion in northern italy.....northern italy is now considered to have been celtic at least since the Canegrate culture of 13th century BC. It is from this region that we have the first recorded celtic inscriptions ( VII century)

rms2
05-05-2018, 12:52 AM
If you're on about this (http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/open-analysis-thread-genetic-distance.html) post then that was repeating a post on Molgen from late January.

The person who reported on the conference (or repeated something he's been sent ?) said the 'book' (paper ?) was going to be out within 6 months and also appeared to admit there could have been mistakes writing it down.

Sorry I'm being a bit vague but I'm having to go by Google Translate : )

Sounds good to me, but then I want it to be true. Yeah, I admit that. B)

alan
05-05-2018, 07:05 AM
I’ve been doing some heavy reading on the distribution, chronology etc of GAC relative to other cultures c. 3200-2500BC between the Dnieper and eastern Romania. I’m not finished yet but broadly speaking, a beaker type signal moving from the steppe and picking up a lot of GAC and v little Balkans farmer would be hard to produce until c 2900-2700BC when the vast bulk of the Cuc-Trip culture disappeared and GAC appeared in the rivers between east Romania and the Dnieper.

Basically the substrate that steppe groups expanding west would have encountered in that zone radically changed around 2900-2800BC. Around that time any steppe groups using any of the routes north around the Capathians has to pass through the late south-eastern GAC expansion zone between the Dnieper and east Romania. This supports the view the beaker signal likely came into being as Yamnaya type people arrived in/passed through that zone. The beaker signal could not have developed in the western GAC area around Germany because GAC died out early there and was all but dead by 2550BC. So it appears to me that the beaker signal developed around 2900-2700BC between the Dnieper and east Romania in s period where steppe groups heading westwards met GAC groups heading south-east down these rivers met. The south-east GAC group was largely short lived c2900-2500BC so the chronological-geographical window to create the beaker signal is pretty narrow.

I think it would have been impossible for the beaker signal to have been created to prior to 2900BC or after 2550BC. It could never have been created east of the Dnieper and it could bot have been created west of Poland because the GAC west group died out early there before beaker existed. If I had to guess the detail I would say the beaker signal was created on the middle reaches of the Dniester c2800-2600BC and traveled north by that river c 2600BC and turned anti-clockwise over the north flanks of the carpathians

alan
05-05-2018, 07:32 AM
Alan
Just few questions from a "layman" perspective:
Reading your posts :
1) so the difference between Corded Ware and BBC do not stem from the type of farmers they mixed with . According to you both mixed only with GAC? Cause I assume CWC farmer component is from GAC too.
So R1b and R1a mixing with the same people.
2) You don't believe anymore in the ( Gimbutas) Vucedol/Yamna mixing in the birth of BBC?
I'm not pushing any agenda...just to understand.

I’ve never been a backer of Gimbutas’ theory on beaker. Think you are maybe confusing me with Rich S. See my new post in what I believe is is the only geographical-chronological window to produce a Yamnaya-GAC blend like beaker. i think a spread west of that sort of signal had to post-date 2900BC by at least a few generations and simply had to take a route north clockwise around the Carpathians. The Dniester looks the likely route as it had the strongest GAC population c2900-2700BC and they overlapped with Yamnaya. I would absolutely rule out steppe groups who had a history of interacting with C-T and Balkans farmers prior to 2900BC when they disappeared and GAC appeared. That includes Usatovo who surely had a significant C-T substrate not a GAC one.

Regarding the difference between signals of beaker and CW. Afaik the main difference is that early CW absorbed less of any substrate and so were largely very Yamnaya like. Personally I think Anthony and others got CW badly wrong. It does not look like it had any history of mixing with C-T or Balkans people in that Dnieper/Dniester zone at all. It looks like it’s ancestors stayed deeper in the steppe and only spread west after C-T had disappeared and/or it took a more northerly route west through the forest zone to Poland. On the other hand CW could have slipped west during a very narrow window c2900BC or so when perhaps the C-T culture had disappeared but GAC had not yet filled the vacuum.

rms2
05-05-2018, 12:29 PM
I still think Gimbutas might have been right, but I am open to alternatives. I would not bet the farm on the finding that the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker was GAC + Swedish TRB. It seems to me there is a lot of wiggle room in autosomal dna comparisons, which are only as good as the populations available for comparison. I'm not saying that finding should be ignored, but I don't think it is the final word either.

Something in which I think far too little stock is placed is that R1b-L11xP312,U106 in Proto-Nagyrev. Thus far, he is the only R1b-L11 that early outside Kurgan Bell Beaker. And what was the cultural context? The transition from Late Vucedol to early Nagyrev there in the Carpathian basin. Merely an odd coincidence?

jdean
05-05-2018, 01:59 PM
Sounds good to me, but then I want it to be true. Yeah, I admit that. B)

Me too but at the moment the way it was reported something doesn't quite add up , anyway fingers crossed : )

rms2
05-05-2018, 02:11 PM
Me too but at the moment the way it was reported something doesn't quite add up , anyway fingers crossed : )

I don't know. Remember a few years ago when Klyosov mentioned that R1b had been found in the Afanasievo and Okunevo cultures in Siberia by Alexei Kovalev? We couldn't find substantiation of that either, but it turned out to be true (although it took two or three years from the rumor to find that out).

jdean
05-05-2018, 03:06 PM
I don't know. Remember a few years ago when Klyosov mentioned that R1b had been found in the Afanasievo and Okunevo cultures in Siberia by Alexei Kovalev? We couldn't find substantiation of that either, but it turned out to be true (although it took two or three years from the rumor to find that out).

It's the date that concerns me but even if they turned out to be L51 that'd be worthy of a good few pints in celebration : )

MitchellSince1893
05-05-2018, 04:05 PM
I’ve been doing some heavy reading on the distribution, chronology etc of GAC relative to other cultures c. 3200-2500BC between the Dnieper and eastern Romania. I’m not finished yet but broadly speaking, a beaker type signal moving from the steppe and picking up a lot of GAC and v little Balkans farmer would be hard to produce until c 2900-2700BC when the vast bulk of the Cuc-Trip culture disappeared and GAC appeared in the rivers between east Romania and the Dnieper.

Basically the substrate that steppe groups expanding west would have encountered in that zone radically changed around 2900-2800BC. Around that time any steppe groups using any of the routes north around the Capathians has to pass through the late south-eastern GAC expansion zone between the Dnieper and east Romania. This supports the view the beaker signal likely came into being as Yamnaya type people arrived in/passed through that zone. The beaker signal could not have developed in the western GAC area around Germany because GAC died out early there and was all but dead by 2550BC. So it appears to me that the beaker signal developed around 2900-2700BC between the Dnieper and east Romania in s period where steppe groups heading westwards met GAC groups heading south-east down these rivers met. The south-east GAC group was largely short lived c2900-2500BC so the chronological-geographical window to create the beaker signal is pretty narrow.

I think it would have been impossible for the beaker signal to have been created to prior to 2900BC or after 2550BC. It could never have been created east of the Dnieper and it could not have been created west of Poland because the GAC west group died out early there before beaker existed. If I had to guess the detail I would say the beaker signal was created on the middle reaches of the Dniester c2800-2600BC and traveled north by that river c 2600BC and turned anti-clockwise over the north flanks of the carpathians

Just to update/narrow "Goldilock Zone"

Alan in Red (GAC west of Dnieper, east of Poland)

RRocca in Blue (more north of Budzhak culture and into the Tisza river basin and Carpathian Basin)

Purple (overlap)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/0f/a3/060fa384d786a78bd6c4515892348d65.png


GAC based on this map
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-W1pd5WChEUc/Tz7bMlenn0I/AAAAAAAAANc/n75I1N-e-P8/s800/GAC.jpg

rms2
05-05-2018, 04:40 PM
Thus far, I personally like Budzhak as the most likely candidate for the pre- or proto-Beaker culture, but I know I could be way wrong.

MitchellSince1893
05-05-2018, 04:40 PM
This area in yellow has a high concentration of GAC sites in the area Alan bounded.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/a0/d0/eca0d0ebb5cc624d18821fa0a3d344a1.png

Good location to travel into Carpathian basin via Tisza or Moravian Gate

MitchellSince1893
05-05-2018, 04:42 PM
Thus far, I personally like Budzhak as the most likely candidate for the pre- or proto-Beaker culture, but I know I could be way wrong.

Oh I like them too and wouldn't be surprised if they end up having ancient L11

rms2
05-05-2018, 04:57 PM
Oh I like them too and wouldn't be surprised if they end up having ancient L11

I mentioned this before, but suppose a substantial number of those Budzhak people were younger sons looking to carve out their own place. They would have needed some girls to share their golden future. Maybe they found those GAC farm girls enticing.

razyn
05-05-2018, 05:48 PM
Has anybody here spent the 90 bucks for a hard copy of this 2016 Anthony et al book?
22978

It's a "final report" on a project that was funded through 2002, so I doubt if it would light any fires in our knowledge of aDNA. But its co-authors include several of the people who are still working in and near the relevant steppes. I noticed that Anthony was translator of the Russian original text for some chapters -- had not previously seen that skill attributed to him, but it's handy. I saw a little Anthrogenica discussion of the book, mostly by Jean Manco, but not a lot by anyone.

If only Samara, Khvalinsk and the rest of the Volga watershed were interesting to a few more of the people who post here, we might eventually connect the right dots. I doubt if the western bank of the Dniester was really a cultural boundary of anything, including the recently discussed Goldilocks Zone. But it's good to have some sort of target area east of Prague. That in itself is a relatively recent development.

rms2
05-05-2018, 05:53 PM
Has anybody here spent the 90 bucks for a hard copy of this 2016 Anthony et al book?
22978

It's a "final report" on a project that was funded through 2002, so I doubt if it would light any fires in our knowledge of aDNA. But its co-authors include several of the people who are still working in and near the relevant steppes. I noticed that Anthony was translator of the Russian original text for some chapters -- had not previously seen that skill attributed to him, but it's handy. I saw a little Anthrogenica discussion of the book, mostly by Jean Manco, but not a lot by anyone.

If only Samara, Khvalinsk and the rest of the Volga watershed were interesting to a few more of the people who post here, we might eventually connect the right dots. I doubt if the western bank of the Dniester was really a cultural boundary of anything, including the recently discussed Goldilocks Zone. But it's good to have some sort of target area east of Prague. That in itself is a relatively recent development.

My wife and my stepson are the real native Russian experts who could uncover a lot, but, as Clark Gable said, they "don't give a damn".

I tried to put my stepson on the scent of that Kovalev rumor back in 2012 or whenever. He has a master's in computer science, but he was useless when it came to finding out anything about that rumor.

etrusco
05-05-2018, 06:04 PM
I don't think it is off topic to discuss a little bit the question of IE since there's an obvious connection with this thread.

1) Before this expansion from eastern europe ( the term steppe is a little bit incorrect even tough it is more politically correct so the steppe theory should be more correctly named the Eastern European Theory) there was more or less a millennium of big influence and genetic input from CT and in general the Balkan Carpathian metallurgical complex into the steppe. What proof we have that this influence and acculturation of the steppe did not trigger a language shift in the steppe. We cannot exclude that the farmers brought PIE to the volga/ samara region by way of cultural supremacy ( after all language is a cultural thing more than a genetic one genes do not speak....do not forget that linking too much genes and culture is a nazi thing!)
2) We cannot exclude that eastern european people that entered europe in the 3th millennium were more migrants willing to incorporate in the CWE society rather than conquerors and warriors. We can scientifically refute this theory?
3) There's a paper from the ( russian?) Balanovsky that says that R1b lineages in Eastern Europe are not at the origin of the R1b in CW europe. what do you think of his thesis? It could proven right or not? What the scientific community think of his theory? There are papers that debunk his thesis?

All this always from a beginner/ layman perspective.....

rms2
05-05-2018, 06:08 PM
. . .

All this always from a beginner/ layman perspective.....

Have you read Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language?

If you haven't, please do so. That would save us the considerable trouble of showing you why IE could not have come from CT.

You might also want to read Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess and Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans.

jdean
05-05-2018, 06:13 PM
Has anybody here spent the 90 bucks for a hard copy of this 2016 Anthony et al book?
22978

It's a "final report" on a project that was funded through 2002, so I doubt if it would light any fires in our knowledge of aDNA. But its co-authors include several of the people who are still working in and near the relevant steppes. I noticed that Anthony was translator of the Russian original text for some chapters -- had not previously seen that skill attributed to him, but it's handy. I saw a little Anthrogenica discussion of the book, mostly by Jean Manco, but not a lot by anyone.

If only Samara, Khvalinsk and the rest of the Volga watershed were interesting to a few more of the people who post here, we might eventually connect the right dots. I doubt if the western bank of the Dniester was really a cultural boundary of anything, including the recently discussed Goldilocks Zone. But it's good to have some sort of target area east of Prague. That in itself is a relatively recent development.

The Kindle version is available for only $48 if that's any help : )

alan
05-05-2018, 07:42 PM
To simplify though, the beaker autosomal signal really could not have come into existence until after 2900BC because there simply was no contact zone between GAC type groups and Yamnaya type groups prior to that. And of course until 2900BC or so there was a barrier of C-T groups between easy Romania and the Dniester (or even the Dnieper) admixing with whom would have not have led to the beaker signal. CW seems to have also avoided the C-T farmers and that again is likely due to timing. CW likely developed c2900-2800BC when C-T was rapidly disappearing and GAC has not fully expanded into the Ukraine/Moldova/east Romania area. Steppe beaker by spreading later than CW had to contend with the GAC south east group which existed on the middle stretches of the rivers between east Romania and the Dnieper c 2900-2600BC or so. So the beaker group has to have been a Yamnaya like group who did not move into the area between the Dnieper and east Romania till after that 2900BC date when C-T was replaced by GAC in that zone. I imagine we are looking at a Yamnaya type group who were east of the Dnieper and didn’t cross it till 2900BC at the earliest. Once the 2900BC or so threshold was passed then much of the area between the Dniester and Germany was a potential GAC admixing zone for 350 years.

The Yamnaya culture west of the Dniester as far as east Romania is poorly dated though prob appeared c 2900BC. It’s also kind of eccentric and does not strictly conform to favoured Yamnaya grave orientations, has little use of ochre and has a higher degree of burial in a flexed position on the side often facing east- contrasting to more classical Yamnaya with its east-west orientation, burial on the back With raised legs etc. I thin this zone on the middle reaches/forest steppe parts of the rivers between the Dnieper and east Romania makes a lot of sense as the location of a proto steppe beaker group by melding their slightly oddball version of Yamnaya with GAC in the period 2900-2600BC. Such a mix was impossible east of the Dnieper and most likely from the Dniester-Bug area (though the Prut and other north-south rivers in Romania on the east side of the Carpathians are possible).

Prior to 3000BC Yamnaya was probably not in that area and neither was GAC till after 2900BC (but C-T was). So the beaker signal simple couldn’t have existed before 2900BC and could never have come into being east of the Dnieper. So I think this deductive reasoning does kind of nail down the rough time (2900-2700bc) and place (the area centred on the Dniester between the Dnieper and east Romania) where the beaker autosomal dna signal developed.

alan
05-05-2018, 07:55 PM
Me too but at the moment the way it was reported something doesn't quite add up , anyway fingers crossed : )

As this genetic info was filtered through by an archaeologistl, my suspicion is that they won’t screw up the dating in the Chinese whispers. Dating is something archaeologists are very fussy about. Ditto the cultural contexts. The bit that an archaeologist is more likely to misreport is genetic terminology as that’s something they v few archaeologists have a familiarity with. My guess is it’s L51 and a comment or graphic showing how this was the root of P312 and U106 was misconstrued as referring to the ancient dna. L51xL11 makes sense in that time period

jdean
05-05-2018, 08:09 PM
Hopefully all will become clear relatively soon.

etrusco
05-06-2018, 08:59 AM
thank for the suggestion I know about these books....
mind you however that the theory of the Gimbutas book that old europe was a matriarchal egalitarian and peaceful society has been largely debunked. Just look at the axe centered culture sweeping all of europe from portugal to the black sea and from norway to sicily in the middle neolithic .Just look at the violence in LBK...human sacrifices in Michelsberg culture and the deep inegalitarian and stratified society of atlantic meghalitism. Not to mention the war like culture of Remedello, Gaudo and Rinaldone.
I will suggest you some readings.

rms2
05-06-2018, 10:53 AM
thank for the suggestion I know about these books....
mind you however that the theory of the Gimbutas book that old europe was a matriarchal egalitarian and peaceful society has been largely debunked. Just look at the axe centered culture sweeping all of europe from portugal to the black sea and from norway to sicily in the middle neolithic .Just look at the violence in LBK...human sacrifices in Michelsberg culture and the deep inegalitarian and stratified society of atlantic meghalitism. Not to mention the war like culture of Remedello, Gaudo and Rinaldone.
I will suggest you some readings.

Although I think Gimbutas may have overdone her feminist leanings, one should also realize that the idea that she believed Old Europe was absolutely pacific is an exaggeration. People who haven't read her works often think she said this or that black-and-white thing, when her viewpoint was actually more nuanced.

That's not to say Gimbutas got everything right. She didn't, but what human could, especially one who was writing without benefit of modern genetic data? Our modern experts aren't getting everything right either, but Gimbutas was mostly right, and she was ahead of her time in attributing the spread of Indo-European to the movement of actual people.

MitchellSince1893
05-06-2018, 03:44 PM
This area in yellow has a high concentration of GAC sites in the area Alan bounded.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/a0/d0/eca0d0ebb5cc624d18821fa0a3d344a1.png

Good location to travel into Carpathian basin via Tisza or Moravian Gate

This is also in the same area I mentioned last year as it pertains to arrowhead types. Unlike like pottery making which is thought to be primarily a female based occupation, some believe arrowhead making is primarily a male based occupation and may be helpful in following the path of a paternal line as it's passed from father to son.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/cf/72/89cf728e0ec572864b4f9dddcc1cf09f.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266234&viewfull=1#post266234
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266451&viewfull=1#post266451

alan
05-06-2018, 03:58 PM
There is one alternative to the time-space scenario I presented just above from rhe creation of the beaker autosomal signal and that is that it arose from a CW group who were very close to pure Yamnaya who then after migration absorbed a load of GAC. If CW started about 2800BC thehat gives a 250year window 2800-2550BC to create that signal. It also gives a zone of potential fusion from the Dnieper to Germany which isn’t helpful. Obviously the ancient yDNA of CW and beaker is very much against this alternative and I am getting more and more persuaded P312 left the steppes westward about 200ys later than Z2103 ie after 2800BC.

Indeed as the main wave west aroundi 2800BC was R1a dominated CW, I think P312 probably didn’t move west of the Dniester/Prut kind of zone until a century or two after that. There are clues backing this as several beaker traits resemble traits that only started to trend on the steppes c 2600BC, indicative they were still in contact as late as then. That includes a big rise in archery sets and knives, craft specialists, changes in burial orientation away from the Yamnaya and early CW east-west on your back with legs up one etc. Beaker does best parallel steppe trends post-dating those seen 3000-2700BC. So I think it’s lateness as a culture is real and it’s likely a late wave west that took a similar route to that which CW took 250 years earlier.

I think the route west for this group had to be around the Northern fringes of the Carpathians around 2600BC. As the actual cultural entity probably didn’t formulate till around 2550NC (somewhere like south-east germany) then the population was probably prior to that represented by atypical influence on late CW in the south of Poland c2600BC which showed late steppe influences including archery kits.

If it was a male single lineage spread then their pottery would reflect that of local women along their migration path rather than at their departure point. Indeed pottery made by local women is also the norm in Yamnaya kurgans in the Balkans which strongly suggests a male dominated migration with wives taken locally. The heavily Balkans farmer mixed Z2103 burials prove this was normal.

MitchellSince1893
05-06-2018, 04:43 PM
Here a post from Richard Rocca on the introduction of a new arrowhead type not found to the north or west of the Malopolska and Zlota cultures, that became part of Bell Beaker culture


Source: Piotr Wlodarczak (2014) The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Malopolska Groups) and Zlota Culture Communities

In the Final Neolithic grave inventories from Malopolska, flint arrowheads are found. In the first half of the 3rd millenium, they are recorded in CWC barrow graves (rarely) and also in Zlota Culuture cemeteries [quite often: 162 items from 48 graves - Witkowska 2013]. Their incidence grows around 2600/2500 BC. The same period witnesses also rich sets of arrowheads (the largest - from grave 15, Wilczycw - comprises 30 items). The latter are related to the burials of adult men; as a rule, they are a component of rich and varied inventories. Equipping the dead with archer's gear is a new tradition in Malopolska - graves with arrowheads are not encountered either in the GAC circle or in the Baden Culture. Likewise, the tradition is not observed either in western or northern CWC regions (from there, we know only of single features with arrowheads). In these areas, archer's equipment became a frequent component of grave inventories only after ca. 2400 BC and is associated with assemblages displaying the tradition of the Bell Beaker Culture. Thus, Malopolska inventories with arrowheads are older than such assemblages by about 200-300 years.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=271574&viewfull=1#post271574

MitchellSince1893
05-06-2018, 05:02 PM
This post from Rocca ties into some of what Alan has been saying in this thread as it relates to paths from Yamnaya areas to GAC.


Ties between Malopolska Corded Ware and Yamnaya came from multiple areas, including the westernmost areas that are long suspected to harbor R-L51.

Source: Wlodarczak (2014) The Traits of Early Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Malopolska Groups) and Zlota Culture Communities
http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Malopolska_Yamnaya_Ties.png
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=273148&viewfull=1#post273148

MitchellSince1893
05-06-2018, 05:45 PM
CATACOMB CULTURE

Early Bronze Age culture(s) north of the Black Sea and
Caucasus dating c 3000-2200 BC. The Catacomb culture was
closely related to the somewhat earlier (Pontic) Yamna culture
and occupies much of the same region...

Catacomb Culture burials with arrow quiver sets (map 2). Red Triangle 31 is near Hancăuți, Moldova near the Prut River.

http://r1b.org/imgs/Yamnaya_Catacomb_Quiver_Set_Burials.png

rms2
05-06-2018, 06:36 PM
A couple of things that I think are attractive about Budzhak as the possible pre-Beaker culture, aside from the arrowheads and the apparent Budzhak emphasis on archery:

1. Budzhak originated in the old Mikhailovka/Kemi Oba territory, both of which cultures had burial rites a lot like Kurgan Bell Beaker: most of the bodies were buried crouched on their sides and burials featured stone- or timber-lined cists, stone cromlechs, and stone anthropomorphic stelae.

2. Budzhak apparently traveled north from the northwest Black Sea coast via the Dniester/Prut River valleys, crossing over the north slopes of the Carpathians via Malopolska and/or the Tisza River valley. Either way took them through GAC territory.

The following is from Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture", page 98:



The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).

alan
05-06-2018, 08:32 PM
This is also in the same area I mentioned last year as it pertains to arrowhead types. Unlike like pottery making which is thought to be primarily a female based occupation, some believe arrowhead making is primarily a male based occupation and may be helpful in following the path of a paternal line as it's passed from father to son.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/cf/72/89cf728e0ec572864b4f9dddcc1cf09f.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266234&viewfull=1#post266234
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266451&viewfull=1#post266451
I think that is pretty close to reality. The interesting that beaker prefiguring traits c 2600BC are present east of the Carpathians and also in south Poland in the Carpathians CW groups (buried with CW pots local women made but perhaps not CW men?). Slovakia is irrelevant as these traits are not known in their CW people who were anyway late displacements from Germany around the time beaker culture appears (the two things may be linked). Those refugees seem to be very traditional east-west burying descendants of the original beaker wave west 2800BC. So the most likely route west or a proto beaker P312 group was through Carpathian Poland c 2600BC and then into south Germany where the final creation of the beakee material culture identity linked with this group took place c 2550BC.

I think your map probably covers the spread of P312 or perhaps all L11 c 2900-2550BC accurately. In deeper time I strong suspect the steppe element in beaker was located nearer the Volga than Dnieper. It doesn’t really resemble pre Yamnaya groups in Ukraine. Davidski said it looked like a pretty well Volga Yamnaya group who later mixed with GAC/Swedish TRB like farmers. I think that places their origins prior to 3000BC near the Volga. Arguably in a forest steppe rather than dry southern steppe environment given that P312 seemed to not spread much into the open steppe environments that Z2103 Yamnaya preceded. Either that or L51’s contact and mixing period with GAC taught them how to adapt to more forested was environs that Z2103 largely avoided (exceptions are noted!

Mr. Snow
05-06-2018, 08:50 PM
This area in yellow has a high concentration of GAC sites in the area Alan bounded.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/a0/d0/eca0d0ebb5cc624d18821fa0a3d344a1.png

Good location to travel into Carpathian basin via Tisza or Moravian Gate

There is an almost complete detachment between what you people are talking about and reality. Around 2800BC Bell Beaker is in Iberia, southern France and northern Italy not Ukraine, Hungary and Poland
https://i.imgur.com/cKeS47W.jpg
Southern French and northern Italian Bell Beakers have the same R1b as central European Bell Beaker but are autosomally different, so which is the source? We don't have to speculate all the variance of R1b-P312 is in Southeast France:

S.E.France____: Var=1.25,
N.E.France____: Var=1.18,
N.W.France____: Var=1.08,
Low Countries__: Var=1.07,
East/Cent Euro_: Var=1.05,
Spain__________: Var=1.04,
England All____: Var=0.99,
Germany _______: Var=0.99,
Wales__________: Var=0.93,
Scotland_______: Var=0.93,
Nordic Area____: Var=0.90,

The longest Y-DNA has been in a region the more variance it accumulates, so southern France is the clear origin of R1b-P312.

Central European Bell Beakers who came into existence hundreds of years after southern European Bell Beaker as small pockets in Corded Ware territory are obviously a mixture of southern French Bell Beaker males and Corded Ware females.

alan
05-07-2018, 12:17 AM
Your talking about beaker pots. They have nothing to do with y lines because women made the pots. We are talking about the P322 steppe gene carrying beaker users. We are not talking about the non-steppe non-P312 groups who made beaker pottery in Iberia from around 2750BC. There appear to be two almost completely unrelated beaker groups in Europe, if there is a connection then it was probably a few women moving from the Rhône to upper Rhine to Danube c 2550BC who spread a pot fashion and very few genes.

rms2
05-07-2018, 11:21 AM
There is an almost complete detachment between what you people are talking about and reality. Around 2800BC Bell Beaker is in Iberia, southern France and northern Italy not Ukraine, Hungary and Poland

No, we're operating in 2018's post-Olalde et al reality, and you seem to be operating at about a 2009 level.



Southern French and northern Italian Bell Beakers have the same R1b as central European Bell Beaker but are autosomally different, so which is the source? We don't have to speculate all the variance of R1b-P312 is in Southeast France . . .

The longest Y-DNA has been in a region the more variance it accumulates, so southern France is the clear origin of R1b-P312.

Have you actually read Olalde et al's The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe? It doesn't sound like it.

Olalde et al found that early Iberian Bell Beaker lacked R1b-M269 and was almost entirely I2a. It also lacked steppe dna. The two R1b's found at the Paris Street site in Catalonia were both R1b-V88, lacked steppe dna, and were actually too old to belong to Bell Beaker anyway.

A few of us had been predicting a result like this for several years when we noted that early Iberian Bell Beaker differed substantially from Kurgan Bell Beaker. Early Iberian Bell Beaker people buried their dead in collective, Neolithic tombs. Early Iberian Bell Beaker people were of the Mediterranean physical type: small in stature, with long heads and gracile skeletons. In contrast, Kurgan Bell Beaker people, especially the men, were tall for the period, tended to have round heads, and had robust skeletons. Kurgan Bell Beaker people buried their important dead in single graves in pits covered by a round burial mound. Buried with many of them was a warrior's kit of weapons, horse bones, etc. Kurgan Bell Beaker burials were often in stone- or timber-lined cists surrounded by a stone cromlech and surmounted by an anthropomorphic stela.

Olalde et al found no R1b-M269 or steppe dna in early Iberian Bell Beaker but found plenty of both, especially R1b-P312, in non-Iberian, Kurgan Bell Beaker, and in Iberian Kurgan Bell Beaker after about 2500 BC.

Modern y-dna variance is nice, but ancient y-dna is much better. SE France has experienced a lot of history and movement of peoples since the third millennium BC. Its modern variance has little bearing on where P312 came from originally. It merely tells us what the situation is now. As I mentioned to you once before when you posted something similar, modern New York City probably has high P312 variance, as well.



Central European Bell Beakers who came into existence hundreds of years after southern European Bell Beaker as small pockets in Corded Ware territory are obviously a mixture of southern French Bell Beaker males and Corded Ware females.

There is no evidence any of that is true. As I also mentioned to you before, Kurgan Bell Beaker's mtDNA is far closer to that of GAC than it is to Corded Ware. If Bell Beaker people acquired their steppe dna from Corded Ware women, Bell Beaker's mtDNA profile should look like Corded Ware's mtDNA profile, but it doesn't. In addition, if Kurgan Bell Beaker men had ancestors who were early Iberian and southern French Neolithic farmers, then the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker should match Iberian and southern French Neolithic farmers, but it does not. Olalde et al found that the Neolithic farmer component in Kurgan Bell Beaker was best modeled as GAC + Swedish TRB. That makes sense of the resemblance of Kurgan Bell Beaker's mtDNA profile to that of GAC. Apparently steppe-derived Kurgan Bell Beaker males took GAC women as wives, not Corded Ware women.

It sounds to me like you still think R1b-L23 came from the Caucasus and Shulaveri-Shomu by way of the North African coast and Iberia, expanding from west to east out of Iberia.

Olalde et al have exploded that idea. It is not at all tenable.

etrusco
05-07-2018, 12:09 PM
rms

I understand your argument. Except for the example of New York, well the big apple is not supposed to be a big hotspot for the origin of the BBC as southern france was in 2800 BC, so the example is misleading. Do not want to appear a psycho if I come up just another time with the case for Remedello. Here we have a beginning of the trend toward more brachycephalazation, single grave N-S oriented daggers and axes and the presence ( at least in the alpine valley in the nearby) of anthropomorphic stelae. You said ( or it was jdean I don't remember) that stelae came from Kemi Oba but we have also antropomprphic stelae in southern france dated a little bit earlier than the east ones. ( 3900-3600). I don't remember who posted about gender oriented burials (N-S oriented) in boleraz culture ( well inside europe). As far as I know the burial on the steppe was either in the frog position or supine and not crouched. The crouched position in many papers is called now the farmer position(!). I would't rule out a central european ( non steppe) origin of bell beaker cultural complex. In fact giving the areal diffusion of BBC it is highly unlikely it has its origin west of Romania and Poland.

Another question:

Have you heard about Balnovsky paper of 2017? He believes that R1b lineages in Western Europe are not connected with the steppe ones. What the scientific community think about that? Can you link me some studies that criticize or debunk his thesis?

rms2
05-07-2018, 12:17 PM
The point about New York City's P312 variance is that a place can have high modern P312 variance and yet not be the original source of P312. Any place that has received a lot of varied groups over the course of the last five thousand years could have high variance as a consequence of that rather than because it is the birthplace of P312.

Remedello lacks steppe dna and R1b. Gimbutas believed it was a kurganized culture rather than an original steppe product.

Kurgan Bell Beaker stelae are similar to the Pontic steppe stelae. Kurgan BB burial rites and postures are also similar to those of Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba of the Black Sea coast and the Pontic steppe.

Right offhand I don't recall the paper you referred to above, but I might have read it. Can you post a link?

etrusco
05-07-2018, 12:32 PM
https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP7IWpzfPaAhVIJcAKHSRnBF4QFghuMA4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flabs.icb.ufmg.br%2Flbem%2Fpdf%2FB alanovsky2017HGlowlandAsia.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Ct6Tom_5m6Xn9bKtHCXmd

jdean
05-07-2018, 12:56 PM
https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiP7IWpzfPaAhVIJcAKHSRnBF4QFghuMA4&url=http%3A%2F%2Flabs.icb.ufmg.br%2Flbem%2Fpdf%2FB alanovsky2017HGlowlandAsia.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Ct6Tom_5m6Xn9bKtHCXmd

Paper was briefly discussed here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8521-Balanovsky-2016-new-SNP-R1b-GG400-in-Eastern-Europeans-and-West-Asians)

Not too long to work through but this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8521-Balanovsky-2016-new-SNP-R1b-GG400-in-Eastern-Europeans-and-West-Asians&p=186437&viewfull=1#post186437) was R.Rocca's thoughts.

Bottom line we know the ancient Yamana samples that have so far been analysed were not the main contributor of Western Europe Y-DNA but we also know their autosomal DNA was, that said we do have Z2103 turning up in West Europe aDNA now.

BTW it was probably JeanM that made the comments on anthropomorphic stelae that you mention earlier.

Webb
05-07-2018, 01:41 PM
The point about New York City's P312 variance is that a place can have high modern P312 variance and yet not be the original source of P312. Any place that has received a lot of varied groups over the course of the last five thousand years could have high variance as a consequence of that rather than because it is the birthplace of P312.

Remedello lacks steppe dna and R1b. Gimbutas believed it was a kurganized culture rather than an original steppe product.

Kurgan Bell Beaker stelae are similar to the Pontic steppe stelae. Kurgan BB burial rites and postures are also similar to those of Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba of the Black Sea coast and the Pontic steppe.

Right offhand I don't recall the paper you referred to above, but I might have read it. Can you post a link?

Right. Does modern distribution frequency of U152 correspond with aDNA frequency of U152 samples found in Eastern Europe?

rms2
05-07-2018, 01:43 PM
Oh, I do seem to remember that discussion. I forgot about it because the paper did not seem all that significant.

R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 are brother subclades under R1b-L23. Z2103 has been found in eastern Yamnaya of the Caspian steppe. Both Z2103 and L51 have been found in Kurgan Bell Beaker.

We don't have y-dna from Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe or in the Carpathian basin yet. The only western Yamnaya we have is one I2a from Bulgaria.

Kurgan Bell Beaker appears to be derived from Yamnaya mixed with GAC Neolithic farmers. It also appears to be the chief source for the Indo-Europeanization of central and western Europe. As Olalde et al mentioned, R1b-M269 is strongly correlated with steppe dna. The Bell Beaker samples lacking steppe dna were all non-R1b-M269. Since R1b-L51 is a brother clade to R1b-Z2103, and turns up with Z2103 in a steppe-derived culture, it seems reasonable to think that R1b-L51 is also of steppe origin.

I also wanted to add that R1b-L51, in the form of R1b-L11xP312,U106, shows up in another steppe-derived culture, Proto-Nagyrev, at Csepel Island in Hungary. Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition from Late Vucedol to early Nagyrev. Gimbutas believed Vucedol came about as the product of the mixing of steppe pastoralists of her Kurgan Waves 1 and 2 with Old European farmers.

rms2
05-07-2018, 01:51 PM
Right. Does modern distribution frequency of U152 correspond with aDNA frequency of U152 samples found in Eastern Europe?

I don't think so. Rich Rocca would know better, but as I recall U152 reaches its peak frequency in northern Italy. It's also pretty frequent in Switzerland and southern Germany.

I'm not sure where it reaches its highest modern variance. I kind of lost interest in modern variance when ancient dna became a viable source of data. Arguing modern variance seems quaint now. It reminds me of the old days of dna forums back in, say, 2007.

ADW_1981
05-07-2018, 03:13 PM
Have you heard about Balnovsky paper of 2017? He believes that R1b lineages in Western Europe are not connected with the steppe ones. What the scientific community think about that? Can you link me some studies that criticize or debunk his thesis?

So you pick an arbitrary SNP and then suddenly decided that one side of the equation has nothing to do with another? These 2 branches go back to a founder that lived merely a few centuries before. How can you make such an argument without a hidden agenda? For some reason, nobody dares suggest this about L645.

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2018, 04:53 PM
Right. Does modern distribution frequency of U152 correspond with aDNA frequency of U152 samples found in Eastern Europe?

No it doesn't. Pre 2000 BC Ancient U152>L2 DNA (which is the only branch currently showing up) is clustering in S. Poland, Czech Republic and Bavaria, with 1 outlier each in Spain, France, and Hungary.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&ll=48.17%2C10.813999999999965&z=5

As opposed to the present day distribution which is most concentrated in N. Italy and Switzerland

Ravai
05-07-2018, 06:49 PM
We think that our mutation L2>BY3485 originated in eastern Switzerland, somewhere in the current Canton of Graubünden. The oldest modern record dates from 1300 AD. Hopefully you will find old DNA with this subclass.

alan
05-07-2018, 08:51 PM
variance n modern populations used as an indicator of origin points and direction of ancient migrations has waaaay too many potential distorting factors to even touch today now that we have ancient DNA. All you need is some sort of kill event or the same lineage invading the same area more than once and its a mess. You can even have a movement that brings most of the variance with it to its new home while their origin point is abandoned. It was especially poor an indicator when the clades being tested for variance were far too rough grained and many 1000s of years old rather than a very precise much younger clade. This approach is years out of date now and not even worth talking about.

The appearance from the east of L23 derivative y lines with a steppe autosomal signal in farming Europe after 3000BC is a done deal now. We are really only debating detail. L51 is a brother clade fo Z2103 with a common L23 ancestor perhaps 4500BC. Its prettu obvious that they both are rooted in the cultures that were in the melting pot that created Yamanaya and related cultures. The main thing I would observe is it appears to be a third steppe wave into Europe after Z2103 into the Danubian zone c. 3000BC and R1a into northern Europe c. 2800BC. It looks like L51 spread out of the steppes (in L11 or P312 form) around 2600BC. The difference is that P312 was permanently successful while you could argue that Z2103 self limited or was checked in south-east Europe while the R1a wave west ran into problems (perhaps P312 was the problem) and lost a lot of territory between the Rhine and Elbe.

alan
05-07-2018, 09:08 PM
We have all sensibly moved or elaborated our ideas as a decent amount of data has slowly become available in terms of ancient DNA. The reason why several of us seem to be converging is we are being evidence led and it firmly points to that Yamanaya/GAC overlap zone (post-dating the C-T cultures fall) as a place where the beaker signal may have developed. The basic zone is between the Dnieper and the Siret (east outer Carpathian Romania) perhaps around 2800-2600BC. That is the only overlap zone/time combo between Yamnaya related cultures and GAC that lies outside of the R1a dominated CW world. There are some archaeological pointers that would suggest classic central European beaker had later steppe traits from c. 2600BC rather than those seen in the CW wave west 200 years earlier or indeed the 1st Yamnaya wave into the Danube or Balkans c. 3000-2900 BC.The Dnieper-Siret zone 2900 (or lets say 2800 so it post-dates CW) to 2600BC looks the best bet although that is still a big area with several cultures so its not totally resolved.

alan
05-07-2018, 09:45 PM
Oh, I do seem to remember that discussion. I forgot about it because the paper did not seem all that significant.

R1b-L51 and R1b-Z2103 are brother subclades under R1b-L23. Z2103 has been found in eastern Yamnaya of the Caspian steppe. Both Z2103 and L51 have been found in Kurgan Bell Beaker.

We don't have y-dna from Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe or in the Carpathian basin yet. The only western Yamnaya we have is one I2a from Bulgaria.

Kurgan Bell Beaker appears to be derived from Yamnaya mixed with GAC Neolithic farmers. It also appears to be the chief source for the Indo-Europeanization of central and western Europe. As Olalde et al mentioned, R1b-M269 is strongly correlated with steppe dna. The Bell Beaker samples lacking steppe dna were all non-R1b-M269. Since R1b-L51 is a brother clade to R1b-Z2103, and turns up with Z2103 in a steppe-derived culture, it seems reasonable to think that R1b-L51 is also of steppe origin.

I also wanted to add that R1b-L51, in the form of R1b-L11xP312,U106, shows up in another steppe-derived culture, Proto-Nagyrev, at Csepel Island in Hungary. Proto-Nagyrev represents the transition from Late Vucedol to early Nagyrev. Gimbutas believed Vucedol came about as the product of the mixing of steppe pastoralists of her Kurgan Waves 1 and 2 with Old European farmers.

I suspect from ancient DNA that Gimbutas may have been right that a Yamnaya component did become involved in Vucedol. Ancient DNA does seem to indicate that pretty clearly. Here is my tuppence worth on what I think happened re Vucedol and Yamnaya. VUcedol looked very much like an dadnvanced entrenched indigenous copper age culture who for much of their history were confined into a rather small area. Then suddenly their influence and reach massively expanded. That expansion took place in the C phase which from memory was around 2600BC. I would wonder if this ancient culture developed a relationship with Yamnaya type groups in the period shortly before 2600BC that provided a much more mobile element that allowed the expansion of the culture/trade into areas like Bohemia and Hungary that previously they had not been near. It just seems odd to me that a sort of up the mountain, hyper-defensive culture who only occupied a compact area for may 3-400 years suddenly expanded their influence and trade so far and wide in their final phase. I think that probably is linked to it absorbing or developing a symbiotic relationship with a mobile steppe element around that time. Interestingly, that timeframe of the sudden expansion is pretty similar to that of bell beaker further north. So while I dont see any chance of Vucedol (far too old European a culture to match the genetics) as ancestral to bell beaker, they may have both been triggered by a late wave of steppe input that somehow provided the mobility to expand.

The interesting thing is that L51 is apparenly invoved in both the geographical expansion phases of Vucedol and the sudden appearance and spread of steppe bell beaker c. 2600-2500BC. So, although I am absolutely convinced one (Vucedol) is not ancestral (or even part ancencental to the other (beaker) it may be that Vucedol C and P312 beaker had common ancestry in a third group who carried L51. This period is several centuries after the great Yamnaya wave west (and even a couple of centuries after CW spread further north). The presence of L51 in both bell beaker and Vucedol and the similar great expansion dates of both does tend to lend weight to the idea that L51 spread from the steppes quite late c. 2600BC and in some way were linked to a sudden increase in trade reach and mobility. I really have to feel that this is somehow linked to horse riding. Then of course the great horse station on the Danube was apparently Csepel with its beaker and Vudecol derivatives. Lots to think about.

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2018, 11:20 PM
For what it's worth:

The current center point for all the U152 ancient DNA with a lower date range of 1900 BC and older (40 samples) is in the SW Czech Republic 20 miles from the border with Bavaria, Germany.

If you only count the points with a lower date range of 2200 BC and older (18 samples) it moves further northeast, away from the German border towards Prague.

Romilius
05-08-2018, 04:42 AM
For what it's worth:

The current center point for all the U152 ancient DNA with a lower date range of 1900 BC and older (40 samples) is in the SW Czech Republic 20 miles from the border with Bavaria, Germany.

If you only count the points with a lower date range of 2200 BC and older (18 samples) it moves further northeast, away from the German border towards Prague.

Very different from modern distribution...

MitchellSince1893
05-08-2018, 04:54 PM
For what it's worth:

The current center point for all the U152 ancient DNA with a lower date range of 1900 BC and older (40 samples) is in the SW Czech Republic 20 miles from the border with Bavaria, Germany.

If you only count the points with a lower date range of 2200 BC and older (18 samples) it moves further northeast, away from the German border towards Prague.
Just a reminder that Iain McDonald postulated a U106 origin between Prague and the Baltic Sea so it’s not just U152 that’s trending towards Central Europe

rms2
05-08-2018, 10:41 PM
Just a reminder that Iain McDonald postulates a U106 origin between Prague and the Baltic Sea so it’s not just U152 that’s trending towards Central Europe

I wonder why he thinks that. YFull has the tmrca of U106 at 4700 ybp, which would put its birth at about 2750 BC. The first U106 man to leave y-dna descendants behind might have been born on the steppe.

alan
05-08-2018, 11:41 PM
It’s a shame that evidence for early horse riding is so controversial and hard to find and prove. There are even those who claim the first convincing evidence of horse riding is beaker culture itself. I am fairly certain the Csepel outpost c. 2500BC and for at least a couple of centuries functioned as a place where horses were sent back to Central Europe via the Moravian gate. After all, the beaker element in Csepel is believed to derive from Moravian bell beaker groups. It does make me wonder it the entire essence of bell beaker stemmed from a group in the north side of the Carpathians taking up horse riding.

I’ve been looking at the Tisza river that Rich has mentioned a few times. It is interesting that it (I think from maps) could provide a shortcut to Budapest from that NW Ukraine/easternmost Romania/Moldova sort of zone which would bypass the lower Danube. It ultimately links to Croatia too which is interesting with the L51 found in a Vucedol derivative (albeit at Budapest). Budapest of course featured an oddball outpost of Moravian beaker and probably sent horses north through the Moravian gap. So many interesting connections but yet no real ‘A migrates to B’ solution for beaker origins.

alan
05-08-2018, 11:53 PM
I wonder why he thinks that. YFull has the tmrca of U106 at 4700 ybp, which would put its birth at about 2750 BC. The first U106 man to leave y-dna descendants behind might have been born on the steppe.

Sounds like he is thinking of the Oder system. Ive suspected that sort of location for U106 during the beaker era though I am not sure about it during its first couple of centuries in the pre-beaker era.
.

dsm
05-09-2018, 12:27 AM
I wonder why he thinks that. YFull has the tmrca of U106 at 4700 ybp, which would put its birth at about 2750 BC. The first U106 man to leave y-dna descendants behind might have been born on the steppe.

RMS2, good point, but IIRC, Iain had this view back in 2016 but, with the recent ancientDNA papers, am sure he will expand that 2016 idea to include perhaps an origin further East. My interest in the U106 origin place is directly linked to where S1194 originated (the 3rd brother clade to P312 + U106). I had been wondering if S1194 had originated between Bohemia & Sth Baltic & discussed this with Ian in 2017.

The problem with U106 & S1194 (& P312) originating in the Bohemia region, is that the dates just don't fit. There may be an answer to this. but the age of SNPs P312 & U106 and apparently S1194, suggests origin in either Ukraine or further east in the Steppes - Also, I think David Anthony in late 2017 wrote that he now believed P312 (in particular) may have reached Bohemia via the Hungarian plains (I am not convinced of this but he knows the area & subject matter a lot more than I do).

Thus our thinking of the origin of U106 may have been affected by the recent Olalde papers and the current claims (YFull etc: ) for ages of the 3 brother clades (P312, U106 & S1194). I just wish I could trust the current aging methods (algorithms) more than I do :( - But, must acknowledge that the RC dating that is applied for recent ancientDNA finds in the Czech region, seem to support the current estimates for the SNP ages.

Doug.

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 01:35 AM
I wonder why he thinks that. YFull has the tmrca of U106 at 4700 ybp, which would put its birth at about 2750 BC. The first U106 man to leave y-dna descendants behind might have been born on the steppe.

McDonald has the age of U106 at 3022 BC http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html and P312 at 3079 BC

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 01:50 AM
Sounds like he is thinking of the Oder system. Ive suspected that sort of location for U106 during the beaker era though I am not sure about it during its first couple of centuries in the pre-beaker era.
.

Yes I'm not sure of the date for his Baltic to Prague comment. And as indicated by dsm, it may be revised east based on Olade. But it is something we have to consider. P312, U106 and the other clades all have to go back to the same starting point/man L11.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=366095&viewfull=1#post366095

alan
05-09-2018, 02:25 AM
When you read about theany cultures between the east Carpathians and the Dnieper c 3000 and 2600BC it’s shocking how undersampled it is in terms of ancient dna. It’s no surprise that there is a missing link in the L11 story from 3000-2550BC.

razyn
05-09-2018, 05:05 AM
McDonald has the age of U106 at 3022 BC http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html and P312 at 3079 BC

So that gives U106 an extra 300 years, more or less, compared with YFull's unmodified age estimation method.

I still don't believe in their methodology, since I don't think mutation rates are a constant. But statistics can point in the right vicinity, even if the assumptions behind them are incorrect. And 3000 BC seems (so far) to be pretty near the right time frame. The Central European dates for U152>L2 (for example) are substantially more recent than that, but L2 also is a few steps down the tree-branching events from L11 (as compared with U106).

Olalde et al 2018 seems to indicate that some not-especially-youthful L11 subclades hit the fan, as it were, pretty close to 2450 BC, for the Isles. And after that, every body in every grave they have analyzed suddenly had steppe ancestry, between about 80 and 100%, that no body previously had. To me, that picture looks like who had the worst microbes and the best antibodies, more than the martial superiority of horsemen with bronze weapons. I'm referring to the picture on p. 20 of this month's Current Archaeology; I don't have a print copy of the Nature paper to which it is credited.

rms2
05-09-2018, 08:19 AM
McDonald has the age of U106 at 3022 BC http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html and P312 at 3079 BC

So there's even less reason to think it originated in central Europe. But, as a couple of folks have pointed out, perhaps he has changed his mind on that.

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 01:02 PM
In Volker Heyd's paper Kossinna's smile, he mentions
Yet along the Rivers Prut, Dnester, the two Bugs, and the San, it is the Globular Amphora Culture that for two or three centuries exists in parallel with Yamnaya, with many mutual exchanges (Szmyt 2013). The role of the Globular Amphora Culture in the transmission is not emphasized; their peoples are not even mentioned in the aDNA papers. But throughout the 4th millennium BCE, we see in the records, both north and south of the Carpathian arc, close interrelationships of the pre-Yamnaya societies of the steppe belt with "inhabitant" cultures or those whose ancestors were already in earlier exchanges with steppe societies (Frinculeasa et al. 2015) https://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/113850524/Kossinna_s_Smile_as_finally_submitted.pdf

etrusco
05-09-2018, 04:48 PM
The paper is well balanced it avoids the too much abused extremism of one sided point of view in relation with the interection between eastern and central western europe. Still there's quite an oblivion about the impact of farmers culture on the steppe from 5000/4500 BC. It was very deep that's why I'm pointing out that we can not rule out that herders took farmers language along with ideas and material culture. There was a shift eastward before the other westward.

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 05:25 PM
...To me, that picture looks like who had the worst microbes and the best antibodies, more than the martial superiority of horsemen with bronze weapons. I'm referring to the picture on p. 20 of this month's Current Archaeology; I don't have a print copy of the Nature paper to which it is credited.

Based on the Kossina's Smile article the trade network already existed from the Ukraine to Iberia. So if some foreign microbe e.g. Black Plague, was introduced from east of the Ukraine and those in Western & Central Europe had little to no exposure/immunity compared to those in the East e.g. L11, then it might help explain the rapid turnover in haplogroups during this period.

I know I've mentioned this before but an L11 origin in/near present day Udmurtia (in red) wouldn't surprise me.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/44/2d/90442df60117e0ef0182c2502a83675a.png

If these L11 guys were outside of the existing 4 millennium pan-European trading network (mentioned by Heyd), and were carrying a foreign microbe with them...

R.Rocca
05-09-2018, 05:44 PM
The paper is well balanced it avoids the too much abused extremism of one sided point of view in relation with the interection between eastern and central western europe. Still there's quite an oblivion about the impact of farmers culture on the steppe from 5000/4500 BC. It was very deep that's why I'm pointing out that we can not rule out that herders took farmers language along with ideas and material culture. There was a shift eastward before the other westward.

For many obvious reasons, most linguists supported the steppe origin of PIE and ancient DNA has resoundingly shown it to be the most accurate model. The PIE origination in Central Europe has never had any serious backing and again, the ancient DNA speaks strongly against it. That IE spread from the steppe is a far gone conclusion now IMO, but where its predecessor PIE came from is down to the steppe or the Caucasus. Maykop Culture DNA will likely help solve the debate.

jdean
05-09-2018, 05:58 PM
In Volker Heyd's paper Kossinna's smile, he mentions https://research-information.bristol.ac.uk/files/113850524/Kossinna_s_Smile_as_finally_submitted.pdf

Slight problem here is we now have some GAC aDNA and it was solidy EEF with no Steppe AFAICR

R.Rocca
05-09-2018, 06:04 PM
By the way, just as we suspected, the U152+ L2+ sample was not a Yamnaya sample. The published paper shows it to belong to the Hallstatt Culture:

Sample: DA111
Region: Lovosice, Czech Republic
Radiocarbon 14C date: 836-780 calBC
Population label: Hallstatt-Bylany Culture

The U106+ sample DA119 is an elite Germanic sample from the Late Roman Period.

I'm sure David Faux will pop open a bottle of champagne tonight!

jdean
05-09-2018, 07:20 PM
By the way, just as we suspected, the U152+ L2+ sample was not a Yamnaya sample. The published paper shows it to belong to the Hallstatt Culture:

Sample: DA111
Region: Lovosice, Czech Republic
Radiocarbon 14C date: 836-780 calBC
Population label: Hallstatt-Bylany Culture

The U106+ sample DA119 is an elite Germanic sample from the Late Roman Period.

I'm sure David Faux will pop open a bottle of champagne tonight!

Has the paper been published ?

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 07:51 PM
Slight problem here is we now have some GAC aDNA and it was solidy EEF with no Steppe AFAICR

If you are referring to "exchanges" and "transmissions" between Yamnaya and GAC, I think Heyd is referring primarily to trade and goods rather than dna, but we know from previous papers that there was a GAC like component in eastern Bell Beaker, so primarily Steppe men and GAC women that help form Bell Beaker?

rms2
05-09-2018, 07:54 PM
Slight problem here is we now have some GAC aDNA and it was solidy EEF with no Steppe AFAICR

Also no R1 in GAC. All y-dna haplogroup I, mostly I2a.

rms2
05-09-2018, 07:58 PM
By the way, just as we suspected, the U152+ L2+ sample was not a Yamnaya sample. The published paper shows it to belong to the Hallstatt Culture:

Sample: DA111
Region: Lovosice, Czech Republic
Radiocarbon 14C date: 836-780 calBC
Population label: Hallstatt-Bylany Culture

The U106+ sample DA119 is an elite Germanic sample from the Late Roman Period.

I'm sure David Faux will pop open a bottle of champagne tonight!

And there's yet another Germanic U106.

jdean
05-09-2018, 08:01 PM
Has the paper been published ?

Bit slow tonight : )

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0094-2

I'll read it tomorrow if I'm not to nakered, off to an archive in the morning.

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2018, 08:07 PM
By the way, just as we suspected, the U152+ L2+ sample was not a Yamnaya sample. The published paper shows it to belong to the Hallstatt Culture:

Sample: DA111
Region: Lovosice, Czech Republic
Radiocarbon 14C date: 836-780 calBC
Population label: Hallstatt-Bylany Culture

Just as I suspected...U152 are the "True Celts"
:boink:
:behindsofa:
:P
Just screwing with all you U152- folks

etrusco
05-09-2018, 09:05 PM
The PIE origination in Central Europe has never had any serious backing and again, the ancient DNA speaks strongly against it.

PIE origination in CE had some backing since many believed the corded ware movement was west-east ( well kossinna was one of them so he's not really smiling!). Remember that CE origin was also screwed up with all the stuff connected with nazism and aryan race. Sure ancient DNA so far speaks against a movement west east (in the time window of 3500-2500). Keep in mind movement of people do not always causes a language change. What ancient DNA tells us is a direction of movement not per se a direction of language, so to speak. It could but also it could not.
IMO this is not a closed question. OOEET ( Out of eastern europe theory) leaves many question unsolved. we'll see.

Mr. Snow
05-09-2018, 09:41 PM
The PIE origination in Central Europe has never had any serious backing and again, the ancient DNA speaks strongly against it.

PIE origination in CE had some backing since many believed the corded ware movement was west-east ( well kossinna was one of them so he's not really smiling!). Remember that CE origin was also screwed up with all the stuff connected with nazism and aryan race. Sure ancient DNA so far speaks against a movement west east (in the time window of 3500-2500). Keep in mind movement of people do not always causes a language change. What ancient DNA tells us is a direction of movement not per se a direction of language, so to speak. It could but also it could not.
IMO this is not a closed question. OOEET ( Out of eastern europe theory) leaves many question unsolved. we'll see.

OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:
https://i.imgur.com/E4ZCp0f.jpg
It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.

etrusco
05-09-2018, 09:57 PM
it seems Hittites belong to J2a1 and G2a2b1, they're like ANF.

etrusco
05-09-2018, 09:58 PM
so hittite is not an indoeuropean language cause it lacks steppe ancestry

anglesqueville
05-09-2018, 10:07 PM
#148

23068
Help !!!

ms85
05-09-2018, 10:08 PM
so hittite is not an indoeuropean language cause it lacks steppe ancestry
Lol, what are you talking about? They deciphered Hittite cuneiform and the language of the Hittites was actually one of the most earliest IEan languages. The language is not even a theory, but exists in physical form. It is 100000% Indo-European (Anatolian) and it is NOT from the Steppes. Steppe model is dead.


https://s9.postimg.cc/bkvn5n0en/hittite-cuneiform-tablet.jpg

etrusco
05-09-2018, 10:11 PM
ms85
You didn't get my irony. I was joking.
Old farmers rule.

Saetro
05-09-2018, 10:29 PM
Just we have to free ourselves from the mental prison that leads us to think that everything must come from the east and the steppe.

Can we please stop using straw man arguments?
Much of public discussion has been destroyed by people attacking things that other people have not said - certainly not in the way they actually said it.
It's a nasty political and legal debating technique, so let's leave it to sleazy debaters.
Please let's stick where possible to directly addressing actual statements.
Maybe we could redefine the Burning Man festival as Burning the Straw Man and celebrate the rejection of this nasty habit.

etrusco
05-09-2018, 10:41 PM
saetro

If looks like that it was not intended as such. But you are right it was a little bit over the top.

rms2
05-09-2018, 10:46 PM
The ethno-nationalists advocating the south-of-the-Caucasus thing are celebrating prematurely. I'm guessing none of the so-called "Hittites" was really a Hittite. Wait and see.

It's pretty common knowledge the Indo-European Nes were an elite who imposed themselves upon a far larger native Hattic population and that the resultant Hittite civilization took its name from the Hatti.

One cannot just dig up a few bodies in a region supposedly occupied by Hittite speakers around 1600 BC and assume he has gotten Indo-European Nes samples.

rms2
05-09-2018, 10:48 PM
Am I also the only one wondering why we're getting silly, south-of-the-Caucasus, ethno-nationalist celebratory posts in a thread on the oldest steppe Bell Beakers?

R.Rocca
05-09-2018, 11:02 PM
OOEET is dead, the Hittite samples are out, just a mixture of CHG and Anatolian farmers, zero EHG. For the people who have been insisting EHG has anything to do with Indoeuropeans it's over. They're also J2 and G2, as I've been saying all the south Caucasus Y-DNA like J2, R1b-L23, G2, T, etc. have very similar distribution in Europe, example:

It came with Indoeuropeans, it wasn't there before. IE moved westwards from the south Caucasus homeland into Anatolia then southeast Europe then south France, where the R1b founder effect that gave birth to Bell Beaker happened. From that point on Centum languages were spread to northern Europe only with R1b instead of the full spectrum of IE Y-DNA.

Yamnaya is 50% EGH and 50% CHG. All this proves is that Maykop likely spoke PIE. The facts all still overwhelmingly point to Yamnaya spreading IE (Italo-Celtic) into Central and Western Europe. Nothing that happened in Anatolia is going to change that. This is from the very paper you are so boldly proclaiming backs your theory:


Thus, while the "Steppe hypothesis", in light of ancient genomics, has so far successfully explained the origin and dispersal of IE languages in Europe, we find that several elements must be reinterpreted to account for Asia.

rms2
05-09-2018, 11:11 PM
From what I have seen thus far, there is no clear evidence that the paper's Hittite samples were really IE Nes. The male G2a, for example, came from the "Assyrian Colony" stratum. He could have been an Assyrian merchant.

etrusco
05-09-2018, 11:11 PM
Yamnaya is 50% EGH and 50% CHG. All this proves is that Maykop likely spoke PIE. The facts all still overwhelmingly point to Yamnaya spreading IE (Italo-Celtic) into Central and Western Europe. Nothing that happened in Anatolia is going to change that.

Or Hittite can be ANF and this opens ( at least) the door to an expansion in Europe and then what I already said about acculturation on the steppe, mixing of EEF and steppe and then big push to South Central Asia.

rms2
05-09-2018, 11:21 PM
Or Hittite can be ANF and this opens ( at least) the door to an expansion in Europe and then what I already said about acculturation on the steppe, mixing of EEF and steppe and then big push to South Central Asia.

Except that is ridiculous on linguistic grounds. The Neolithic expansion into Europe began too early to have carried Indo-European with it. There is good reason to suspect Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers spoke some sort of Afro-Asiatic language.

etrusco
05-09-2018, 11:27 PM
rms

show me the alleged afro asiatic place names all over the areal expansion of neolithic farmers please. Because these farmers should have given a name in the place they lived from portugal to poland ( GAC turned out to be EEF) and from sicily to norway. Show me.

rms2
05-09-2018, 11:49 PM
rms

show me the alleged afro asiatic place names all over the areal expansion of neolithic farmers please. Because these farmers should have given a name in the place they lived from portugal to poland ( GAC turned out to be EEF) and from sicily to norway. Show me.

Look that up for yourself. The fact remains that there is no way PIE is old enough to have been brought into Europe by Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers. That was one of the huge flaws in Renfrew's hypothesis.

Some of the words borrowed into western IE languages are of Afro-Asiatic origin, such as the word Taurus for bull.

Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmers evidently practiced mother goddess fertility religions that likewise do not jive with the IE patriarchal ethic of the Shining Sky Father.

rms2
05-10-2018, 12:01 AM
This video might be helpful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

etrusco
05-10-2018, 12:06 AM
I repost

mind you however that the theory of the Gimbutas book that old europe was a matriarchal egalitarian and peaceful society has been largely debunked. Just look at the axe centered culture sweeping all of europe from portugal to the black sea and from norway to sicily in the middle neolithic .Just look at the violence in LBK...human sacrifices in Michelsberg culture and the deep inegalitarian and stratified society of atlantic meghalitism. Not to mention the war like culture of Remedello, Gaudo and Rinaldone.

as for the argument of age. well an older entry could account for the highly diversified family languages that we find in europe outside the steppe ( italic-celtic-germanic-alabanian- greek-baltic-slav-thracian and dacian) really the time window for these language to form from LPIE is only 1500/2000 years It seems not. look at the romance languages they are diversifying since 2000 years and they look quite the same. They can quite be read synoptically.

as for taurus that demonstrate that WE languages were in contact with semitic speakers which is indifferent regarding the scenario we are talking about. That could even reinforce the argument they originated close to the mediterranean!

rms2
05-10-2018, 12:26 AM
Watch the video I posted above. Those people are actual linguists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

anglesqueville
05-10-2018, 06:12 AM
Watch the video I posted above. Those people are actual linguists.

That's always a pleasure to listen to Asya, thanks for the video.

MikeWhalen
05-10-2018, 11:19 AM
the link for your video seems to have disappeared bro

fyi

Mike


This video might be helpful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

rms2
05-10-2018, 12:00 PM
the link for your video seems to have disappeared bro

fyi

Mike

Weird. I put it back, but it could disappear again, I guess. Thanks for the heads up and for reposting it.

R.Rocca
05-10-2018, 12:19 PM
Watch the video I posted above. Those people are actual linguists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jHsy4xeuoQ

Yeah, one can't put blinders on and disregard the linguistic arguments.

Radboud
05-10-2018, 12:54 PM
And there's yet another Germanic U106.

Yeah, we have a U106+ (Eastern?) Germanic elite/chieftain and on the other hand a Hallstatt P312+ L2+ sample. It looks like U106 were not the real Celts (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6939-R1b-U106-were-the-True-Celts-and-Belgae-(my-opinion)). :biggrin1:

Johane Derite
05-10-2018, 02:19 PM
Yeah, one can't put blinders on and disregard the linguistic arguments.

Linguistic arguments definitely cannot be disregarded. But they also cannot be misrepresented by overinflating certainty about elements of serious scientific research.

For example, in the book "The Indo-European Controversy" by the authors that are speaking in the video you replied to, this is a a passage on the word "sea" and how unertain linguists are about it:

"Another controversial PIE reconstruction is the root *mori, which presumably
means ‘sea’. If this term is indeed traceable all the way back to PIE, then
by the logic of linguistic paleontology one might assume that the speakers of
PIE must have lived near a large body of water of some type. Note, however,
that the relevant cognates come from the northwestern Indo-European
languages: Lithuanian māres, Old Church Slavonic morje, Latin mare, Old
Irish muir, Gothic marei. No relevant cognates are found in the Anatolian,
Tocharian, Greek, Armenian, Albanian, or even Indo-Iranian branches of the
family. The Greek word thalassa ‘sea’, for example, almost certainly comes
from a pre-Indo-European substrate. As a result of such absences, the root
*mori cannot be reliably reconstructed all the way back to PIE. It is possible
that the Indo-European branches that lack a word for ‘sea’ once had it but later
lost it, perhaps by acquiring it from the local substratum language, as has been
proposed for the Greek thalassa (as discussed in Chapter 7). Alternatively, it is
possible that the root *mori ‘sea’ was coined by – or borrowed into – the
common ancestor of a particular branch of the Indo-European family.
As it turns out, determining whether a word that is absent in many descendant
languages stems from PIE is often a difficult matter. In the case of ‘sea’, the issue
is further complicated by the fact that even in the Germanic and Celtic languages
we find other roots meaning the same thing, as evident in the English word sea
itself. Moreover, some of the roots for ‘sea’ can also refer to other types of water
bodies. For example, the German cognate of the English sea, See can refer to
either ‘lake’ or ‘sea’, whereas German Meer refers to either ‘sea’ or ‘ocean’
while the Dutch word meer generally means ‘lake’. Scottish Gaelic loch refers to
either ‘fresh-water lake’ or ‘salt-water sea inlet’. Similarly, Russian more, just
like its English counterpart sea, can also refer to a large landlocked body of
water, such as the Aral Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Dead Sea, or the Sea of Galilee.
Thus, it is possible that PIE speakers were familiar not with the sea in the sense
of the ocean, but rather with a large interior body of water"

A representation of the issue as if its super clear to linguists in an exact sense the type of geography that they were living in is not factual.

The example of something as general as "sea" should suffice to make my point clear.

rms2
05-10-2018, 11:43 PM
Linguistic arguments definitely cannot be disregarded. But they also cannot be misrepresented by overinflating certainty about elements of serious scientific research . . .

The example of something as general as "sea" should suffice to make my point clear.

Not really. The overall accuracy and weight of historical linguistics cannot be called into question because of doubts and ongoing discussions about the origin of a single word.

There is a lot more room for doubt about the IE status of the alleged "Hittite" samples in that new paper, which is raising an incredible stink of ethno-nationalism in certain threads, than there is about the PIE word for sea.

R.Rocca
05-10-2018, 11:45 PM
Linguistic arguments definitely cannot be disregarded. But they also cannot be misrepresented by overinflating certainty about elements of serious scientific research.

For example, in the book "The Indo-European Controversy" by the authors that are speaking in the video you replied to, this is a a passage on the word "sea" and how unertain linguists are about it:

"Another controversial PIE reconstruction is the root *mori, which presumably
means ‘sea’. If this term is indeed traceable all the way back to PIE, then
by the logic of linguistic paleontology one might assume that the speakers of
PIE must have lived near a large body of water of some type. Note, however,
that the relevant cognates come from the northwestern Indo-European
languages: Lithuanian māres, Old Church Slavonic morje, Latin mare, Old
Irish muir, Gothic marei. No relevant cognates are found in the Anatolian,
Tocharian, Greek, Armenian, Albanian, or even Indo-Iranian branches of the
family. The Greek word thalassa ‘sea’, for example, almost certainly comes
from a pre-Indo-European substrate. As a result of such absences, the root
*mori cannot be reliably reconstructed all the way back to PIE. It is possible
that the Indo-European branches that lack a word for ‘sea’ once had it but later
lost it, perhaps by acquiring it from the local substratum language, as has been
proposed for the Greek thalassa (as discussed in Chapter 7). Alternatively, it is
possible that the root *mori ‘sea’ was coined by – or borrowed into – the
common ancestor of a particular branch of the Indo-European family.
As it turns out, determining whether a word that is absent in many descendant
languages stems from PIE is often a difficult matter. In the case of ‘sea’, the issue
is further complicated by the fact that even in the Germanic and Celtic languages
we find other roots meaning the same thing, as evident in the English word sea
itself. Moreover, some of the roots for ‘sea’ can also refer to other types of water
bodies. For example, the German cognate of the English sea, See can refer to
either ‘lake’ or ‘sea’, whereas German Meer refers to either ‘sea’ or ‘ocean’
while the Dutch word meer generally means ‘lake’. Scottish Gaelic loch refers to
either ‘fresh-water lake’ or ‘salt-water sea inlet’. Similarly, Russian more, just
like its English counterpart sea, can also refer to a large landlocked body of
water, such as the Aral Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Dead Sea, or the Sea of Galilee.
Thus, it is possible that PIE speakers were familiar not with the sea in the sense
of the ocean, but rather with a large interior body of water"

A representation of the issue as if its super clear to linguists in an exact sense the type of geography that they were living in is not factual.

The example of something as general as "sea" should suffice to make my point clear.

Nobody has ever made claims about PIE based on one word. Obviously there is a lot more to it than that. My point was that we have to take ancient DNA and linguistics and archaeology into account, and once one does, the most likely scenario is (by far) a Bronze Age steppe origin for European languages like Italo-Celtic, Germanic and Balto-Slavic.

Romilius
05-11-2018, 09:49 AM
I read that in Hallstatt the people buried are probably the high status ones, instead the burnt people are commoners. So, that P312 guy could be part of the celt equites or druides.

alexfritz
05-11-2018, 10:09 AM
I read that in Hallstatt the people buried are probably the high status ones, instead the burnt people are commoners. So, that P312 guy could be part of the celt equites or druides.

no its the reverse, cremation are the higher rankers per grave goods;
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/hallstatt/graeberfeld/bestattungssitten
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/jart/prj3/nhm/images/img-db/1401791303517.jpg

cool thing is that hallstätters looked like the folks on the situlae, so well known and documented and not much imagination needed;

angscoire
05-11-2018, 12:23 PM
no its the reverse, cremation are the higher rankers per grave goods;
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/hallstatt/graeberfeld/bestattungssitten
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/jart/prj3/nhm/images/img-db/1401791303517.jpg

cool thing is that hallstätters looked like the folks on the situale, so well known and documented and not much imagination needed;

Yes the Bohemian Hallstatt fellow seems little different to Bohemian Beakers. And on a selfish note , another ‘cool thing’ is that he plots on top of me on David’s North European PCA .

anglesqueville
05-11-2018, 01:10 PM
Not really. The overall accuracy and weight of historical linguistics cannot be called into question because of doubts and ongoing discussions about the origin of a single word.

There is a lot more room for doubt about the IE status of the alleged "Hittite" samples in that new paper, which is raising an incredible stink of ethno-nationalism in certain threads, than there is about the PIE word for sea.

Perhaps anecdotal, in Finnish the main word for "sea" is "meri", from proto-U *meri ...
Certainly anecdotal, the thread you are referring to has become what is called in French a "zone de non-droit", namely a place where there are no rules, no right, where police and public services don't go anymore... kingdoms of gangs and traffickings. Not good for AG that there is a thread where some people feel compelled to condamn Anthony (or Mallory, don't recall) to an early retirement.

rms2
05-11-2018, 03:04 PM
Perhaps anecdotal, in Finnish the main word for "sea" is "meri", from proto-U *meri ...
Certainly anecdotal, the thread you are referring to has become what is called in French a "zone de non-droit", namely a place where there are no rules, no right, where police and public services don't go anymore... kingdoms of gangs and traffickings. Not good for AG that there is a thread where some people feel compelled to condamn Anthony (or Mallory, don't recall) to an early retirement.

It's definitely a place where stupidism reigns supreme, and, of all the radical isms, stupidism is the worst.

You know things are bad when, if you are of European descent and agree with the steppe hypothesis, you get accused of being a racist. There is another member here who likes to insinuate that if you agree with the steppe hypothesis you must be a Nazi. He's done that a number of times over the years.

But I can't recall anyone here asserting that steppe pastoralists were some sort of "master race" of superior, golden-haired Nordics. Haven't the Yamnaya genomes thus far mostly shown that those folks were kind of swarthy? That doesn't bother me.

ADW_1981
05-11-2018, 03:59 PM
Are there admixture runs for the U106 and L2 sample in the paper? The gedmatch ones looked an awful lot like French_Basque for the L2 guy, and CEU for the U106.

Also, does anyone have the excerpt for the grave context of the Halstatt guy from the paper? I know the U106 guy was a high ranking individual based on the description.

jdean
05-11-2018, 04:45 PM
It's definitely a place where stupidism reigns supreme, and, of all the radical isms, stupidism is the worst.

You know things are bad when, if you are of European descent and agree with the steppe hypothesis, you get accused of being a racist. There is another member here who likes to insinuate that if you agree with the steppe hypothesis you must be a Nazi. He's done that a number of times over the years.

But I can't recall anyone here asserting that steppe pastoralists were some sort of "master race" of superior, golden-haired Nordics. Haven't the Yamnaya genomes thus far mostly shown that those folks were kind of swarthy? That doesn't bother me.

Apart from anything else the proposed PIE urheimat in the Kurgan hypothesis isn't exactly close to the NW corner of Europe most people in this forum draw their ancestry from, how these argument get so personal beats me ?

Romilius
05-11-2018, 04:54 PM
no its the reverse, cremation are the higher rankers per grave goods;
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/hallstatt/graeberfeld/bestattungssitten
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/jart/prj3/nhm/images/img-db/1401791303517.jpg

cool thing is that hallstätters looked like the folks on the situale, so well known and documented and not much imagination needed;

The supplementary informations of the paper say the opposite for Halstatt C to Halstatt D period: probably, cremations are locals, whereas skeletal remains are immigrant nobility.

etrusco
05-11-2018, 05:19 PM
Not good for AG that there is a thread where some people feel compelled to condamn Anthony (or Mallory, don't recall) to an early retirement.

a pretty much stunning comment......have you ever heard of a crazy little thing called scientific progress? If we cannot dare to criticize mainstream science or "sacred cow" personality ( as long as there is a minimum base and politely) we would still believe the earth is flat and the world is younger than Sredni Stog.....

ADW_1981
05-11-2018, 05:35 PM
Not good for AG that there is a thread where some people feel compelled to condamn Anthony (or Mallory, don't recall) to an early retirement.

a pretty much stunning comment......have you ever heard of a crazy little thing called scientific progress? If we cannot dare to criticize mainstream science or "sacred cow" personality ( as long as there is a minimum base and politely) we would still believe the earth is flat and the world is younger than Sredni Stog.....

We still haven't found M269+ in LBK related settlements or pre-LBK settlements so I don't see how people aren't following the science in their theories. Early R1b was likely following big game all across north Eurasia, so what. This says nothing about one lucky group of descendants who were M269+, no evidence supporting the founder living in west-central northern Europe prior to or during the Neolithic revolution.

anglesqueville
05-11-2018, 07:52 PM
Are there admixture runs for the U106 and L2 sample in the paper? The gedmatch ones looked an awful lot like French_Basque for the L2 guy, and CEU for the U106.

Also, does anyone have the excerpt for the grave context of the Halstatt guy from the paper? I know the U106 guy was a high ranking individual based on the description.

From open-genomes :SNPs read: 595279 percent covered: 49.67%
I downloaded the file in the hope of running qpAdm, but the coverage is really low.

alexfritz
05-11-2018, 09:03 PM
The supplementary informations of the paper say the opposite for Halstatt C to Halstatt D period: probably, cremations are locals, whereas skeletal remains are immigrant nobility.

i think this is a good and simple map on HallstattC/D sketching out the different types of hierarchal burials and sites,
https://i.imgur.com/e582ywx.png

bylani is given as an important 'find site' with a celtic 'herrenhof'(manor) nearby so the burried could have been that chieftain, looking at the sources again there is def no clear segragation in burial rite in that cramtion=elite/elaborate burial and inhumation=common/scarce burial but the cremated burials (specially at typesite)__ have the more richer/prominant assemblages; since you mention immigrants for hallstatt C a factor is the new wave steppe of cimmerian 'thraco-cimmerian' migration bringing in new metallurgical innovations (above all iron) and craft, their actual base could have been confined to the carpathian basin and the remainder via cultural diffusion up the danube and into the upper rhine area prob along the carpathian gold route;
german http://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2007_0015-0036.pdf

rms2
05-11-2018, 09:37 PM
. . .

a pretty much stunning comment......have you ever heard of a crazy little thing called scientific progress? If we cannot dare to criticize mainstream science or "sacred cow" personality ( as long as there is a minimum base and politely) we would still believe the earth is flat and the world is younger than Sredni Stog.....

What the heck are you talking about? How is saying Mallory's career is over "scientific progress"?

Pardon me, but you sound like one of those ethno-nationalist J2 guys who just happens to like the idea that J2 could be the original PIE y-dna haplogroup, despite all the contrary evidence. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but you should admit it and dispense with the "scientific progress" baloney.

The thread we were talking about has little to do with "scientific progress".

rms2
05-11-2018, 09:53 PM
Apart from anything else the proposed PIE urheimat in the Kurgan hypothesis isn't exactly close to the NW corner of Europe most people in this forum draw their ancestry from, how these argument get so personal beats me ?

Since my y-dna ancestors evidently come from the Welsh Border country, and as far as I know, Shropshire and Powys aren't in the running for "PIE Urheimat", I don't really have an ethno-nationalist axe to grind.

I will admit I like the idea of having horse-riding, steppe pastoralists as y-dna ancestors, but I know I also have Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers among my ancestors.

vettor
05-11-2018, 10:04 PM
i think this is a good and simple map on HallstattC/D sketching out the different types of hierarchal burials and sites,
https://i.imgur.com/e582ywx.png

bylani is given as an important 'find site' with a celtic 'herrenhof'(manor) nearby so the burried could have been that chieftain, looking at the sources again there is def no clear segragation in burial rite in that cramtion=elite/elaborate burial and inhumation=common/scarce burial but the cremated burials (specially at typesite)__ have the more richer/prominant assemblages; since you mention immigrants for hallstatt C a factor is the new wave steppe of cimmerian 'thraco-cimmerian' migration bringing in new metallurgical innovations (above all iron) and craft, their actual base could have been confined to the carpathian basin and the remainder via cultural diffusion up the danube and into the upper rhine area prob along the carpathian gold route;
german http://www.zobodat.at/pdf/Rudolfinum_2007_0015-0036.pdf

the area in map of you pdf ...ie...pannonia is the beginning of

Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula) (see ultra).

In the eastern vicinity of this group there was the Thraco-Illyrian group which did the same thing, but only to the labiovelars followed by back vowels (*a, *o), while the labiovelars followed by a front vowel (e, i) were palatalized along with regular velar sounds. One may conclude that in Thraco-Illyrian the phenomenon of palatalization before a front vowel took place in about the same time as the one of the bi-labialization of the labiovelars. I should emphasize that bi-labialization of labiovelars did not reach the peripheral dialects such as Insular Celtic, Latino-Faliscan and Epirote dialect (from which Proto-Albanian evolved) (see ultra). I should also mention that the palatalization of velars followed by a front vowel affects all velars (and dentals) and it has nothing to do with the distinction centum/satem.

The Relationship between the Thraco-Illyrian, Italic, and Celtic Language. Indo-Europeanists divide the Celtic and Italic languages into two major groups: the Q-dialects and P-dialects. The Q-Celtic dialects were those which were separated earlier from the main group such as Proto-Irish and Proto-Celtiberian, according to the treatment of Proto-Indo-European labiovelars in these languages. The P-dialects turned the labiovelars into bilabials, while Q-dialects turned the labiovelars into simple velars. Instead, east of the Pyrenees, the Celtic dialects have turned the Proto-Indo-European labiovelars into labials, like in Osco-Umbrian.

George
05-11-2018, 10:09 PM
Since my y-dna ancestors evidently come from the Welsh Border country, and as far as I know, Shropshire and Powys aren't in the running for "PIE Urheimat", I don't really have an ethno-nationalist axe to grind.

I will admit I like the idea of having horse-riding, steppe pastoralists as y-dna ancestors, but I know I also have Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers among my ancestors.

Out of curiosity (and I have no views on this) which of the Gedmatch calculators would you recommend as giving the best breakdown of these three fundamental contributions (corollary: and distinguishing WHG from other HG)?

uintah106
05-11-2018, 10:11 PM
They were riding ponies when they got wales

rms2
05-11-2018, 10:17 PM
They were riding ponies when they got wales

And driving sheep, apparently (and making excellent beer).

jdean
05-11-2018, 10:26 PM
And driving sheep, apparently (and making excellent beer).

Lots of sheep, no doubt about it, much of Wales can't be used for much else.

Old joke: Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous : )

rms2
05-11-2018, 10:30 PM
Lots of sheep, no doubt about it, much of Wales can't be used for much else.

Old joke: Wales, where men are men and sheep are nervous : )

Well, I guess you know the old joke about Scotland. Why do the Scots wear kilts? Because the sheep can hear a zipper a mile away.

rms2
05-11-2018, 10:32 PM
The "excellent beer" part I can personally testify to. If my wife let me move to Wales when I retire, our entire fortune (such as it is) would be spent in the pubs, between meat pies and Brains ale.

jdean
05-11-2018, 10:40 PM
The "excellent beer" part I can personally testify to. If my wife let me move to Wales when I retire, our entire fortune (such as it is) would be spent in the pubs, between meat pies and Brains ale.

Pies and beer are definitely my weakness too : ))))

etrusco
05-11-2018, 11:12 PM
I was referring overall to the nervous reaction many pro-steppe guys have every time someone comes up with doubt and questions that the OOEE theory leaves unanswered. If I would be in your shoes ( absolute sure about OOEE ) I would take it easy. IE related debates should be a no-go zone for snowflakes and thin skinned man. No ethno related issue has something to do with my take that it were the EEF that spread PIE. IE culture religion and overall weltanshaaung is too complex, too "structured" to be the product of nomads from the steppe. No doubt about that. the ( if confirmed) genomes from Anatolia are promising.
At least we are both celts rms2! How is cymru doing there? they are managing to keep it alive?

dsm
05-12-2018, 12:27 AM
Out of curiosity (and I have no views on this) which of the Gedmatch calculators would you recommend as giving the best breakdown of these three fundamental contributions (corollary: and distinguishing WHG from other HG)?

The one we use in our ftdna projects - all of us European origin people (for consistency in results and based on our trust of the data) is the Eurogenes admixture(heritage) entries ...

1) GEDmatch: Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions <= useful for general European origin mixes

2) GEDmatch: Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions <= useful for looking at Steppes components incl ANE

We stick to these just to maintain consistency and to avoid divergence into essentially un-winnable debates over one test vs another.

3) But as a curiosity we sometimes include GEDmatch: 'MDLP K23b Admixture Proportions'

Our fallback is to

4) FTDNA: 'Ancient Origins' - it is easier to digest for new members who have done a FTDNA F/F test.

D

razyn
05-12-2018, 05:33 PM
Olalde et al 2018 seems to indicate that some not-especially-youthful L11 subclades hit the fan, as it were, pretty close to 2450 BC, for the Isles. And after that, every body in every grave they have analyzed suddenly had steppe ancestry, between about 80 and 100%, that no body previously had. To me, that picture looks like who had the worst microbes and the best antibodies, more than the martial superiority of horsemen with bronze weapons. I'm referring to the picture on p. 20 of this month's Current Archaeology; I don't have a print copy of the Nature paper to which it is credited.

I've taken the liberty of copying that illustration, assuming "fair use" in a review of sorts. One keeps seeing references (in the posts of people who think their ethnic group hasn't changed since the Neolithic) to the unlikelihood, or impossibility, of population replacement in the vicinity of 90% to 100%. But sometimes it happened, and this is what a graph of that looks like:

23103

While it is still on the shelves, I think this month's issue of [I]Current Archaeology could use a little better publicity (than I've seen, anyway) on the AG forum. Especially for American readers, who don't see British journalism as a matter of routine. So I'll give it a bump here, since I've cited it on this thread. Perhaps the "R1b-L11: Where from?" thread is a more narrowly focused place to cite it (and I did so); but some of us whose European ancestry includes a bit of this and a bit of that might also be interested in reading in some detail about the bits from the Isles. This month, they can do so. Twelve dollars may be a bit steep for a magazine article, but it's a keeper:

23101

etrusco
05-12-2018, 06:00 PM
razyn

thank you for the post but I have some questions

remember seeing many graphics with figures indicating still a 50% ( more or less) of pre-kurgan lineages for today britain. So technically what happened in between? there was a comeback of farmers ancestry? as far as you know there's in historical genetic records a scenario like that of britain? Cause it seems unbelievable. maybe this was connected with a downward population trend before the arrival of R1b in the isles?

Judith
05-12-2018, 07:29 PM
Thanks again Rayzin for the Current Archaeology recommendation but when I went onto their web site today it was no longer the most recent.
But I was able to take out a subscription, which from some of the previous issues I will certainly enjoy, and select to start from the Bell Beaker issue. At £49 per year only £4 per copy.

rms2
05-13-2018, 12:38 AM
I was referring overall to the nervous reaction many pro-steppe guys have every time someone comes up with doubt and questions that the OOEE theory leaves unanswered. If I would be in your shoes ( absolute sure about OOEE ) I would take it easy. IE related debates should be a no-go zone for snowflakes and thin skinned man. No ethno related issue has something to do with my take that it were the EEF that spread PIE. IE culture religion and overall weltanshaaung is too complex, too "structured" to be the product of nomads from the steppe. No doubt about that. the ( if confirmed) genomes from Anatolia are promising.
At least we are both celts rms2! How is cymru doing there? they are managing to keep it alive?

Well, I've been at this quite a few years, and I am pretty thick skinned. I was expressing doubts about the R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge idea and saying I thought R1b was Indo-European back in 2006 when almost all it got me was derision and mockery.

I heartily disagree with your idea that EEF spread PIE. No way! Too much evidence against that.

rms2
05-13-2018, 01:20 AM
Out of curiosity (and I have no views on this) which of the Gedmatch calculators would you recommend as giving the best breakdown of these three fundamental contributions (corollary: and distinguishing WHG from other HG)?

Honestly, I don't fool around with Gedmatch all that much, so I can't really answer that question, not very well anyway.

R.Rocca
05-13-2018, 07:25 PM
I was referring overall to the nervous reaction many pro-steppe guys have every time someone comes up with doubt and questions that the OOEE theory leaves unanswered.

Not a nervous reaction, just a frustration when folks argue against the ancient DNA data that so clearly supports it.


If I would be in your shoes ( absolute sure about OOEE ) I would take it easy. IE related debates should be a no-go zone for snowflakes and thin skinned man. No ethno related issue has something to do with my take that it were the EEF that spread PIE. IE culture religion and overall weltanshaaung is too complex, too "structured" to be the product of nomads from the steppe. No doubt about that. the ( if confirmed) genomes from Anatolia are promising.
At least we are both celts rms2! How is cymru doing there? they are managing to keep it alive?

The very complicated and structured IE religion you allude to was replaced quite easily by a simple religion (Christianity) practiced by common folks during the height of the Roman Empire. So, don't think for a minute that a complex societies religion can't be changed. It does and it has. The way you paint things, all of Europe should have sprung from Cucuteni-Tripolye and G2a would be the big Y-chromosome in Europe.

etrusco
05-13-2018, 08:53 PM
Richard

A religion can impose itself because

1) It is a product of deep philosophical and cultural thinking ( the case of IE which we can call "platonic" with the broadest possible meaning this term have)
2) It is supported by a strong war like impetus ( typical case Islam)
3) Because ……it is the true one! ( the case well of ……..CHRISTIANITY)

Christianity was a religion of commoners but its success is based on the fact that it is supported by the true God. So even it would have been preached by blind and illiterate folks it would have won anyway.

Christianity is an outlier.

etrusco
05-13-2018, 09:29 PM
rms

I did not get that you are ( partilaly) Irish and not Welsh……I'm pretty much stunned however that people that supported R1b being "native" in Central Western Europe did not link it to indoeuropean. I tought they linked the two things…pretty much stunning. Given your Irish origin if you want to take a look of an early indoeuropean culture just have a little getaway to Ireland to visit Newgrange….very instructive…sun cult….cremation…..barrow mounds…..

R.Rocca
05-14-2018, 01:12 PM
Richard

A religion can impose itself because

1) It is a product of deep philosophical and cultural thinking ( the case of IE which we can call "platonic" with the broadest possible meaning this term have)
2) It is supported by a strong war like impetus ( typical case Islam)
3) Because ……it is the true one! ( the case well of ……..CHRISTIANITY)

Christianity was a religion of commoners but its success is based on the fact that it is supported by the true God. So even it would have been preached by blind and illiterate folks it would have won anyway.

Christianity is an outlier.

Well, I'm sure that the Hinuds, Muslims, Bhuddists etc. on this forum can make the same claim. Therefore, if we are talking about archaeology, genetics, linguistics and any other scientific discipline, your argument that Christianity is an outlier is not valid.

MikeWhalen
05-14-2018, 03:20 PM
'the true god'?

what a load of dopey bullshit and insulting to everyone else that aint your 'brand of believer'...this kind of churlish chauvinism has no place here

Mike




A religion can impose itself because

1) It is a product of deep philosophical and cultural thinking ( the case of IE which we can call "platonic" with the broadest possible meaning this term have)
2) It is supported by a strong war like impetus ( typical case Islam)


3) Because ……it is the true one! ( the case well of ……..CHRISTIANITY)

Christianity was a religion of commoners but its success is based on the fact that it is supported by the true God. So even it would have been preached by blind and illiterate folks it would have won anyway.

Christianity is an outlier.

R.Rocca
05-14-2018, 06:03 PM
I don't know how close folks here follow other threads, but it should worth noting that the linguistic supplement to the Damgaard et al (2018) paper contained the following:


The EHG ancestry detected in individuals associated with both Yamnaya (3000–2400 BCE) and the Maykop culture (3700–3000 BCE) (in prep.) is absent from our Anatolian specimens, suggesting that neither archaeological horizon constitutes a suitable candidate for a “homeland” or “stepping stone” for the origin or spread of Anatolian IndoEuropean speakers to Anatolia. However, with the archaeological and genetic data presented here, we cannot reject a continuous small-scale influx of mixed groups from the direction of the Caucasus during the Chalcolithic period of the 4th millennium BCE.

Obviously this may be of extreme importance to the history of L23. Will be find L23(xZ2103,L51)? Just Z2103? Some L51? My bet is that L51 will not show up there, but that L23(xZ2103,L51) and Z2103 will. I've seen some folks on this and other sites misclassify the distribution of the Maykop Culture as being in the Middle East. In fact, the distribution lies entirely in the North Caucasus and certainly north of the Greater Caucusus mountain range in Russia. Here is a map to clarify its distribution:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Maykop_Culture_Distribution_001.png

By the way, it has long been a hope (wishful thinking) of mine to find L23 in Cucuteni-Tripolye and/or Maykop due to the rich material culture of both. Obviously Cucuteni-Tripolye has been disproven, so perhaps we will get lucky with Maykop.

etrusco
05-14-2018, 07:56 PM
Richard
"Well, I'm sure that the Hinuds, Muslims, Bhuddists etc. on this forum can make the same claim".

Yes, where's the problem? and they would be sincerely welcomed. I will never be offended if someone tells me islam is the true religion or Hindu ecc.. if one believes in one religion it is implicit they considers other religions not to be true. I prefer to confront myself to people of strong convictions rather than to hide everything in a neutrality that avoids to talk about the most important issues of life.


Therefore, if we are talking about archaeology, genetics, linguistics and any other scientific discipline, your argument that Christianity is an outlier is not valid"

More or less I could even agree but remember that supernatural does not means against natural thinking or rationality. A pure philosophical approach to the problem of God leads us to confirm the existence of a being that is at the origins of all things. This thinking and conclusion are perfectly inside the scientific field because philosophy IS a science with its principles and methods. Science can tell us the HOW and WHEN of things but is unable to tell us WHY things exist ( the problem of their being). This without any will of lecturing anyone.

Mike Whalen
"what a load of dopey bullshit and insulting to everyone else that aint your 'brand of believer'...this kind of churlish chauvinism has no place here"

Again…. by stating one's own creed where's the insult?

R.Rocca
05-14-2018, 08:23 PM
Richard
"Well, I'm sure that the Hinuds, Muslims, Bhuddists etc. on this forum can make the same claim".

Yes, where's the problem? and they would be sincerely welcomed. I will never be offended if someone tells me islam is the true religion or Hindu ecc.. if one believes in one religion it is implicit they considers other religions not to be true. I prefer to confront myself to people of strong convictions rather than to hide everything in a neutrality that avoids to talk about the most important issues of life.


Therefore, if we are talking about archaeology, genetics, linguistics and any other scientific discipline, your argument that Christianity is an outlier is not valid"

More or less I could even agree but remember that supernatural does not means against natural thinking or rationality. A pure philosophical approach to the problem of God leads us to confirm the existence of a being that is at the origins of all things. This thinking and conclusion are perfectly inside the scientific field because philosophy IS a science with its principles and methods. Science can tell us the HOW and WHEN of things but is unable to tell us WHY things exist ( the problem of their being). This without any will of lecturing anyone.

Mike Whalen
"what a load of dopey bullshit and insulting to everyone else that aint your 'brand of believer'...this kind of churlish chauvinism has no place here"

Again…. by stating one's own creed where's the insult?

Of course science can tell us the "why". The appearance of yersinia pestis, lactose tolerance, evidence of horse riding in bones etc. has all come by way of science.

etrusco
05-14-2018, 08:24 PM
Richard

"The EHG ancestry detected in individuals associated with both Yamnaya (3000–2400 BCE) and the Maykop culture (3700–3000 BCE) (in prep.) is absent from our Anatolian specimens, suggesting that neither archaeological horizon constitutes a suitable candidate for a “homeland” or “stepping stone” for the origin or spread of Anatolian IndoEuropean speakers to Anatolia".

These quote is very important…. "origin and spread of ANATOLIAN INDOEUROPEAN SPEAKERS TO ANATOLIA"

Since many are questioning that the samples were taken from Hittites Damgaard believes that those were real Hittites. That's the only way to interpret the all sentence you posted.

MikeWhalen
05-14-2018, 08:48 PM
final comment for etrusco, wonder if that was always his name here......

23157

R.Rocca
05-14-2018, 08:53 PM
Richard

"The EHG ancestry detected in individuals associated with both Yamnaya (3000–2400 BCE) and the Maykop culture (3700–3000 BCE) (in prep.) is absent from our Anatolian specimens, suggesting that neither archaeological horizon constitutes a suitable candidate for a “homeland” or “stepping stone” for the origin or spread of Anatolian IndoEuropean speakers to Anatolia".

These quote is very important…. "origin and spread of ANATOLIAN INDOEUROPEAN SPEAKERS TO ANATOLIA"

Since many are questioning that the samples were taken from Hittites Damgaard believes that those were real Hittites. That's the only way to interpret the all sentence you posted.

This thread is about P312 males who had steppe ancestry. It has nothing to do with Hittites, nor the samples of which none belonged to R1b. So, please keep to the topic and post it in any of the other threads related to that topic please.

etrusco
05-14-2018, 09:12 PM
Richard
You posted it first …..connect with yourself please

Mike

I'm not a troll.

GASKA
05-14-2018, 09:13 PM
Thank you for letting me participate in this forum. My oldest family comes from Valdegobia (province of Alava, Basque Country). The subject of the debate is much more complicated than some people believe. You have to be a great expert in genetics, archeology and linguistics to be able to draw acceptable conclusions. We will try to collaborate with our knowledge of the history, prehistory and languages of Spain. Special greetings for R. Rocca, that I have seen have ancestors in Burgos and Asturias, near my homeland. After years reading theories about the origin of R1b-M269, S116, L21, Df27 and U152, I am still amazed by the ability of people to comment about the basques, Italy, Spain, France or Portugal without having the slightest idea of our prehistory, our people, our languages and our genetic Knowledge. Excuse my mistakes in English, I am not an expert in this language. Etrusco is right about the Remedello culture and remember that the difussion of the Indoeuropean languages never triumph in the Iberian Peninsula because at least half of the territory (western) spoke iberian and basque at the arrival of the Romans, and yet we have the highest percentages in the world. There are thousands of ancient skeletons to be analyzed in Spain, and at least a hundred walled chalcolithic cities with abundant localized human remains, surely we can keep moving forward. The theory of the invasions of Western Europe by the steppe riders is totally absurd from an archaelogical and linguistic point of view. Un saludo a todos los hispanohablantes que participan.

rms2
05-14-2018, 10:07 PM
Have you read Olalde et al's The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe?

There was no R1b-L23 or steppe dna in early Iberian Bell Beaker or in Iberian Neolithic farmers (which is what early Iberian Bell Beaker were).

R1b-L23 and steppe dna arrived in Iberia with Kurgan Bell Beaker from the east after about 2500 BC. Indo-European language arrived in Iberia with Kurgan Bell Beaker, as well.

Here's a relevant quote from David Reich's new book, which was posted by R. Rocca here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=376974&viewfull=1#post376974).



"This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along the with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe."

He does not use haplogroup names in the book, but it is obvious that he is referring to L23 as the "Y-chromosome type of steppe origin". Martiniano's and Olade's papers are referenced elsewhere, but the citation that Reich chose for the above statement is for "West Iberia; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory." meaning he must have more samples that back that up, especially from Portugal and/or NW Spain.

rms2
05-14-2018, 10:11 PM
'the true god'?

what a load of dopey bullshit and insulting to everyone else that aint your 'brand of believer'...this kind of churlish chauvinism has no place here

Mike

Mike, you're a good guy and all, but it's not "dopey bullshit" for a Christian to regard his God as the One True God. In fact, he wouldn't be a Christian at all if he didn't.

I can agree this is not the sort of thread in which to discuss religious controversies, at least modern ones, anyway.

MikeWhalen
05-14-2018, 10:22 PM
he was not simply saying what he believed

I would be just as annoyed if that exact thing had been said by a muslim

rms2
05-14-2018, 10:34 PM
he was not simply saying what he believed

I would be just as annoyed if that exact thing had been said by a muslim

Well, anyway, this is not the place for it. Religious arguments are prone to get out of hand too rapidly.

rms2
05-14-2018, 10:54 PM
rms

I did not get that you are ( partilaly) Irish and not Welsh……I'm pretty much stunned however that people that supported R1b being "native" in Central Western Europe did not link it to indoeuropean. I tought they linked the two things…pretty much stunning. Given your Irish origin if you want to take a look of an early indoeuropean culture just have a little getaway to Ireland to visit Newgrange….very instructive…sun cult….cremation…..barrow mounds…..

There is nothing really Indo-European about Newgrange. It is a Neolithic passage tomb. No horse cult, no weapons, no single burial, etc.

For the most part, Neolithic farmers buried their dead in collective tombs. The evidence also seems to indicate that most of them practiced a female-centered, mother earth goddess religion. They left behind numerous female figurines that appear to be cult objects.

The Indo-Europeans, on the other hand, were a patriarchal society, which was reflected in the male divinities they worshiped, like the Shining Sky Father. They buried their dead in single graves in pits under round burial mounds and with a warrior's kit of weapons.

GASKA
05-15-2018, 12:46 AM
And How is possible that a patriarchal societyof horsemen of the steppes conquered the basques and abandoned their mother tongue thanks to matriarchy?

GASKA
05-15-2018, 12:48 AM
And How is possible that a patriarchal society of horsemen of the steppes conquered the basques and abandoned their mother tongue thanks to matriarchy?

Ümläüt
05-15-2018, 05:31 AM
Well, something similar happened to Austronesians twice. Some IE speakers adopted Basque culture and language(matrilocality helps here) and became the dominant group.

Romilius
05-15-2018, 06:22 AM
Here we are with the Basque again... will this nightmare finish one day?

When I read comments about Basque and genetics, I see a lot of politics and few science...

anglesqueville
05-15-2018, 06:42 AM
Here we are with the Basque again... will this nightmare finish one day?

When I read comments about Basque and genetics, I see a lot of politics and few science...

Indians or Iranians everywhere, and now a Basque (once more ...) , what else tomorrow? Some afro-supremacists perhaps? A russian follower of Klejn (and of "Baltic über Alles"). Some old "biblists" (unlikely,as the last ones are on 23&me's forum)? Something funnily new would be a french turning ethno-nationalist after having read somewhere that southern France is the craddle of P312 ... but the chance of that ever happening is very small, unfortunately.
Seriously, it's exhausting.

GASKA
05-15-2018, 07:27 AM
The truth is that I expected a more kind reception. I don't know if the Basques are a nightmare, but surely there are worst things in life, for example listening to the followers of Gimbutas explaining the theory of steppe warriors on horseback. Iñigo Olalde is also Basque and apparently has provided great joy to these people. Regarding "Oldest steppe Bell Beakers", the individual associated with Bell Beaker culture with more "steppe Dna" in Spain was not R1b but CT, haplogroup never seen in Spain until I6471 buried in la Magdalena. You have thought that may be NOT all the inhabitants of Eastern Europe were R1b? I suppose that Reich will be a great geneticist, but I don`t think he is a great expert in the Iberian chalcolitic. Rms2 has said that L23 and the Indoeuropean language entered Iberia at 2.500 B.C. We believe that at least in relation to the language was much later (Iberian Final Bronze Age, 1.000-700 B.C) when a major change has been discovered in mitochondrial haplogroups. Apparently, the new Mit. Haplogroup discovered are HVO, H2 and H7, frequent in Schoningen Culture populations (Saxony).Before that, and due to the Holocene`s optimal climate, the development of irrigation tecniques and crop rotation, there was a spectacular demographic development in Iberia (1-2 inhabitants/square kilometer-600.000-1.200.000 people). Where is the dramatic genetic change? This only occurred when (2.200-1.700 B.C) began what Spanish archaelogists call the climatic event 4.ok with a period of aridity caused in part by the depletion of natural resources.

etrusco
05-15-2018, 09:07 AM
GASKA

Thank you for being here.... I have a question regarding Basque language. I've heard about a ( fringe probably ) theory about the possibility of basque be an IE language. Do you know something about that. Because in Italy the same thing happened with ligurian that was believed to be pre-IE but after more accurate studies it turned out to be a para-celtic language.

anglesqueville
05-15-2018, 09:58 AM
GASKA

Thank you for being here.... I have a question regarding Basque language. I've heard about a ( fringe probably ) theory about the possibility of basque be an IE language. Do you know something about that. Because in Italy the same thing happened with ligurian that was believed to be pre-IE but after more accurate studies it turned out to be a para-celtic language.

Forni's text
http://euskararenjatorria.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/04Forni1-main-article-JIES.pdf

Kassian's critic
https://www.academia.edu/3811354/On_Forni_s_Basque_Indo-European_Hypothesis_JIES_2013_

GASKA
05-15-2018, 10:27 AM
Saludos etrusco. Well I hope the admins allow us to talk about it, because it may be related to the oldest iberian steppe bell beakers. The Basque language has a neolithic origin, for example the word "Ax"- Aizkora has the root "Haitz", which means Stone. As everyone knows, the stone axes are from the neolithic era, so the first people who spoke Basque didn`t know the copper axes. In any case we only know 40% of words of the old Basque, the rest are indoeuropean words (celtic, latin, spanish and french). Ligurian and Basque were related for a long time and apparently do not have the same origin. Our ideas about the genetics of the Basques have nothing to do with nationalism, the genetic has served to demonstrate that the Basques are very similar genetically to the rest of Spaniards and also to the rest of Europeans. If we had know this before, we would have saved many racist theories of the XIX and XX centuries, but this don`t mean that we have to accept theories that have no scientific basis. By the way, Anglesqueville, we think that the origin of P312 is the Franco-Cantabrian region, and we know (thanks to Olalde), that P312 in the iberian chalcolitic have very little to do with the autosomal steppe DNA. Gaska comes from Gascony and we are proud of it.

rms2
05-15-2018, 11:09 AM
And How is possible that a patriarchal society of horsemen of the steppes conquered the basques and abandoned their mother tongue thanks to matriarchy?

As I understand it, the ancient Basque marriage system was matrilocal, that is, the groom went to live with the bride's family. If he was a non-Basque foreigner, he would have to learn the language and culture of the bride's family, and his children would be raised speaking their mother's language.

All that is required then is some reproductive luck and drift, and there you have it: the Basques acquiring steppe y-dna and autosomal dna while simultaneously preserving their language and culture.

rms2
05-15-2018, 11:19 AM
. . . By the way, Anglesqueville, we think that the origin of P312 is the Franco-Cantabrian region, and we know (thanks to Olalde), that P312 in the iberian chalcolitic have very little to do with the autosomal steppe DNA. Gaska comes from Gascony and we are proud of it.

What P312 in the Iberian Chalcolithic? You're thanking the wrong man, too, because Olalde showed nothing of the kind, quite the opposite.

Thus far, P312 first appears in the ancient y-dna record with the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. It is absent from early Iberian Bell Beaker and from western Europe prior to the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker around 2500 BC and thereafter. It is strongly correlated with steppe autosomal dna.

I trust you read the quote from Reich's book I posted (thanks to R. Rocca) a few posts back? It's like a before and after picture. Before about 2500 BC, no steppe dna or R1b-L23 (including P312) in Iberia. After the arrival of Steppe or Kurgan Bell Beaker around 2500 BC, plenty of both.

Almost no one who has actually kept up with what is going on in ancient dna thinks that P312 originated in the Franco-Cantabrian region.

rms2
05-15-2018, 11:46 AM
. . . Regarding "Oldest steppe Bell Beakers", the individual associated with Bell Beaker culture with more "steppe Dna" in Spain was not R1b but CT, haplogroup never seen in Spain until I6471 buried in la Magdalena . . .

You haven't kept up, Gaska.

Kurgan Bell Beaker man I5665/RISE911 from El Virgazal, Tablada de Rudron, Burgos, Spain, was R1b-P312, had a lot of steppe dna, and was dated to 2281-1985 BC.

Kurgan Bell Beaker man I6472 from La Magdalena, Alcala de Henares, Madrid, Spain, was R1b-M269, had steppe dna, and was dated to 2500-2000 BC.

Probably I6471 was R1b-P312, as well, but CT was the best they could do.

anglesqueville
05-15-2018, 12:16 PM
Hum, GASKA, if in the 6 upcoming months what Alexei Butin told on Molgen ( http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,1114.1545.html , many individuals in Khvalynsk, 4th quarter of Vth millenium BCE, all identified P312) is confirmed, you'll encounter some difficulties with your prehistoric francocantabrian theory. Take advantage of the next months, because the winter is coming from Khvalynsk. By the way and off topic, GASCA, your interpretation of Olalde's analyses is completely false.
edit: definitely, rms2 my friend, you are quicker than me!

etrusco
05-15-2018, 12:57 PM
anglesqueville

Can R1b P 312 be really that old? Or it is R1b L-51?

GASKA
05-15-2018, 12:58 PM
Nice to discuse this topic with you. I don`t know, the dates that are used in the rest of Europe for the chalcolithic, but in Iberia the production of copper objects began 3.000 B.C, although there is metallurgy documented from 5.000 B.C. So our chalcolitic extends throughout the III Millenium (3.000-2.000 B.C), when a metallurgical technique different from that of the Balkans was developed. So What P312 in the Iberian chalcolithic? You yourself answered- I5665-P312, el Virgazal, and I6539-P312, I6588 from Humanejos (Madrid, 2.456-2.056 a.c). I6472 from la Magdalena (U152). In respect of I6471 (la Magdalena) Olalde says "Sample I6471, is assigned a different label as it appears to have significantly more steppe-related ancestry than the BK- Spain-Mad2 group (I6472-I6623-I6539-I6588). Then all those cases of R1b P312 are documented in the Iberian chalcolithic. Experts geneticits will know how to interpret the steppe origin of CT-I6471, because it is buried with Bell Beaker ceramics and a Palmela tipe copper arrowhead. You have to be calm, Spanish geneticits, have thousands of skeletons to analyze, especially in the large chalcolithic villages of Southern Spain (Andalucia, Extremadura and Murcia). We have to be cautious because we will have many surprises. By the way, the ancient Basque marriage system that we know is what existed in recent historical periods, after the Roman conquest, but if you can send me a link with the Basque matrimonial system in the chalcolitic, I will be thankful.

anglesqueville
05-15-2018, 01:14 PM
anglesqueville

Can R1b P 312 be really that old? Or it is R1b L-51?

Honnestly I'm really awaiting a confirmation, like I suppose many people. "That old" would be a real surprise, but my feeling is that we could have some suprises with the purely statistical datation methodology of the Y haplos. Furthermore, no R1a would be for me another surprise. Afaik the 3 Y tested from Khvalynsk before these ones are R1b, R1a and Q .

GASKA
05-15-2018, 01:16 PM
Ok Anglesqueville, then P312 is more than 7.000 years old? Genetics doesn`t stop admiring me. That means that Df27, L21 and U152, can be 6.900 years old? Or simply P312 took 3.500 years to have succesful mutations? If P312 is a mesolithic haplogroup of course we will have to change our idea of a Franco-Cantabrian origin. By the way, my analysis of Olalde`s work, may be wrong, but it is not false. I do not try to convince anyone of anything. It seems that you have the inmediate obligation to disqualify opinions contrary to yours. Keep calm, we are peaceful people.

rms2
05-15-2018, 01:45 PM
Nice to discuse this topic with you. I don`t know, the dates that are used in the rest of Europe for the chalcolithic, but in Iberia the production of copper objects began 3.000 B.C, although there is metallurgy documented from 5.000 B.C. So our chalcolitic extends throughout the III Millenium (3.000-2.000 B.C), when a metallurgical technique different from that of the Balkans was developed. So What P312 in the Iberian chalcolithic? You yourself answered- I5665-P312, el Virgazal, and I6539-P312, I6588 from Humanejos (Madrid, 2.456-2.056 a.c). I6472 from la Magdalena (U152). In respect of I6471 (la Magdalena) Olalde says "Sample I6471, is assigned a different label as it appears to have significantly more steppe-related ancestry than the BK- Spain-Mad2 group (I6472-I6623-I6539-I6588). Then all those cases of R1b P312 are documented in the Iberian chalcolithic. Experts geneticits will know how to interpret the steppe origin of CT-I6471, because it is buried with Bell Beaker ceramics and a Palmela tipe copper arrowhead. You have to be calm, Spanish geneticits, have thousands of skeletons to analyze, especially in the large chalcolithic villages of Southern Spain (Andalucia, Extremadura and Murcia). We have to be cautious because we will have many surprises. By the way, the ancient Basque marriage system that we know is what existed in recent historical periods, after the Roman conquest, but if you can send me a link with the Basque matrimonial system in the chalcolitic, I will be thankful.

The samples I mentioned, I5665 and I6472, were both Kurgan Bell Beaker. When you referred to P312 in Iberia during the Chalcolithic, I thought you were referring to the period before the arrival of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Over the last several years, as the ancient dna evidence has mounted, the defenders of the Iberian Refuge have told us again and again there will be many surprises, meaning, of course, that time would prove them right, and eventually we would see that R1b really did spend the LGM in Iberia. Nothing of the kind has occurred. In fact, the evidence that R1b-M269 spread into Europe from the Eurasian steppe with the early Indo-Europeans has only grown stronger and stronger.

rms2
05-15-2018, 01:51 PM
In the quote from Reich's recent book provided by R. Rocca, Reich mentions that both his Harvard lab and Dan Bradley's SMURFIT lab came up with the same results for Iberia independently. That is pretty compelling.



Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

etrusco
05-15-2018, 01:56 PM
@all

Just to add to the discussion:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.it/2018/03/iberian-genetic-clusters.html
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.it/2018/03/oldest-known-iberian-r1b-s116-and-df27.html

jdean
05-15-2018, 02:06 PM
@all

Just to add to the discussion:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.it/2018/03/iberian-genetic-clusters.html
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.it/2018/03/oldest-known-iberian-r1b-s116-and-df27.html

Maju, famous loon who has to have his own site as he gets thrown out of every other, if I were you I'd look around for other sources : )

R.Rocca
05-15-2018, 02:06 PM
Thank you for letting me participate in this forum. My oldest family comes from Valdegobia (province of Alava, Basque Country). The subject of the debate is much more complicated than some people believe. You have to be a great expert in genetics, archeology and linguistics to be able to draw acceptable conclusions. We will try to collaborate with our knowledge of the history, prehistory and languages of Spain. Special greetings for R. Rocca, that I have seen have ancestors in Burgos and Asturias, near my homeland. After years reading theories about the origin of R1b-M269, S116, L21, Df27 and U152, I am still amazed by the ability of people to comment about the basques, Italy, Spain, France or Portugal without having the slightest idea of our prehistory, our people, our languages and our genetic Knowledge. Excuse my mistakes in English, I am not an expert in this language. Etrusco is right about the Remedello culture and remember that the difussion of the Indoeuropean languages never triumph in the Iberian Peninsula because at least half of the territory (western) spoke iberian and basque at the arrival of the Romans, and yet we have the highest percentages in the world. There are thousands of ancient skeletons to be analyzed in Spain, and at least a hundred walled chalcolithic cities with abundant localized human remains, surely we can keep moving forward. The theory of the invasions of Western Europe by the steppe riders is totally absurd from an archaelogical and linguistic point of view. Un saludo a todos los hispanohablantes que participan.

Welcome to the forum GASKA! I am very proud of both my Italian and Spanish heritage. I pushed for years prior to ancient DNA for a Remedello > Early Iberian Bell Beaker origin for L51> L11 > P312. But, I am fortunate to be an unbiased and open-minded person who is able to assess new data, apply deductive reasoning, and change my opinion to what's most probable. I can assure you that as a fluent reader of both Italian and Spanish (and to an extent Catalan etc.) I am as well read on the prehistory of both Italy and Iberia as anyone else. It is very likely that Proto-Basque and the related Paleo-Sardinian were spoken along the eastern half of Iberian, Mediterranean France, Northern Italy (including Remedello) and Sardinia during the Copper Age. Those men more than likely belonged to I2a. Read Eduardo Blasco Ferrer's book on the subject (and not just Wikipedia entries). The book also contains a chapter by Francalacci about I2a-M26 in Sardinia and Spain. I posted a summary about it the week the book came out (I had pre-ordered it).

rms2
05-15-2018, 02:07 PM
. . . Experts geneticits will know how to interpret the steppe origin of CT-I6471, because it is buried with Bell Beaker ceramics and a Palmela tipe copper arrowhead . . .

Regarding the CT finding for I6471. It's sometimes tough to get as much resolution as we would like from ancient bones. CT simply means the best they could do was a derived reading for CT (M168/PF1416). In reality, when the man was alive, he could have been anything old enough downstream of that, from C through T. I'm guessing he was probably R1b-P312, but it looks like we'll never know for sure.

GASKA
05-15-2018, 02:48 PM
Un placer Señor Rocca, sure we can exchange interesting information. I just wanted to clarify something about the defenders of the glacier refuge in Iberia and the origin of R1b. We Spaniards were not the first defenders of this theory, but pioneering expert geneticists like Sykes, Oppenheimer and Wells. They were amazed between the genetic resemblance of Anglosaxons and Spaniards and thought about the Iberian refuge because they didn`t understand how fast the haplogroup R1b has spread. We do not defend the Iberian origin of R1b, not even the most of its descendants, although is true that many people would prefer to have Iberian origin to a steppe one. Rms2, the surprises will not come about the origin of R1b, but from the large amount of information that still rests in the Prehistoric sites of Western Europe. You know that in Spain, France and Portugal, the interest in genetics is relative because we don`t have the same concerns that North Americans, and it is scary that genetic knowledge is used for racist purposes. However, science advances, and the archaelogists will press to geneticits to help them clarify many controversial issues in European Prehistory. I am thinking about the origin of Bell Beaker culture, metallurgy, Indoeuropean languages.

Romilius
05-15-2018, 03:23 PM
Un placer Señor Rocca, sure we can exchange interesting information. I just wanted to clarify something about the defenders of the glacier refuge in Iberia and the origin of R1b. We Spaniards were not the first defenders of this theory, but pioneering expert geneticists like Sykes, Oppenheimer and Wells. They were amazed between the genetic resemblance of Anglosaxons and Spaniards and thought about the Iberian refuge because they didn`t understand how fast the haplogroup R1b has spread. We do not defend the Iberian origin of R1b, not even the most of its descendants, although is true that many people would prefer to have Iberian origin to a steppe one. Rms2, the surprises will not come about the origin of R1b, but from the large amount of information that still rests in the Prehistoric sites of Western Europe. You know that in Spain, France and Portugal, the interest in genetics is relative because we don`t have the same concerns that North Americans, and it is scary that genetic knowledge is used for racist purposes. However, science advances, and the archaelogists will press to geneticits to help them clarify many controversial issues in European Prehistory. I am thinking about the origin of Bell Beaker culture, metallurgy, Indoeuropean languages.

As I said: too much politics and nationalistic pride... very few science. I'm terrified by Maju-style scholars...

Romilius
05-15-2018, 03:24 PM
Un placer Señor Rocca, sure we can exchange interesting information. I just wanted to clarify something about the defenders of the glacier refuge in Iberia and the origin of R1b. We Spaniards were not the first defenders of this theory, but pioneering expert geneticists like Sykes, Oppenheimer and Wells. They were amazed between the genetic resemblance of Anglosaxons and Spaniards and thought about the Iberian refuge because they didn`t understand how fast the haplogroup R1b has spread. We do not defend the Iberian origin of R1b, not even the most of its descendants, although is true that many people would prefer to have Iberian origin to a steppe one. Rms2, the surprises will not come about the origin of R1b, but from the large amount of information that still rests in the Prehistoric sites of Western Europe. You know that in Spain, France and Portugal, the interest in genetics is relative because we don`t have the same concerns that North Americans, and it is scary that genetic knowledge is used for racist purposes. However, science advances, and the archaelogists will press to geneticits to help them clarify many controversial issues in European Prehistory. I am thinking about the origin of Bell Beaker culture, metallurgy, Indoeuropean languages.

May I ask you to elaborate? You are behaving like one who pretends to already know something others don't know.

ADW_1981
05-15-2018, 03:40 PM
And How is possible that a patriarchal societyof horsemen of the steppes conquered the basques and abandoned their mother tongue thanks to matriarchy?

I think you're right. I disagree with rms2 on this one. I don't believe language was really key to this package, but it's not to say that they weren't speaking some form of IE. The Iberian situation with more local female admixture would lend to a situation where a local Neolithic language from the first farmers might have been adapted from females. (ie: Aquitanian, Iberian..etc)

The role of the male in these tribal societies was to defend the clan, and the emphasis on warriors. I don't see how this is necessarily linked to language.

etrusco
05-15-2018, 04:31 PM
ADW_1981

Interesting observation…..you are perfectly right ….back then maybe imposing one's own language was not linked to some kind of imperialism as us western are accustomed nowadays and in the last centuries of european expansion. Anglosphere, Francophonie, Hispanidad are so linked with former colonialism that we too often tend to see the past with the mindset of european expansionism of modern and contemporary era

Now taking for a moment for granted the demic diffusion of R1b and R1a steppe raiders in central western europe how can we be so confident that this movement triggered a language shift ( I know mockery and derision will follow) given that
1) before this push eastward the steppe were under the influence of BKMC for almost a thousand year and the cultural influence of the big culture ( sad always so underrated) of CT. What if the steppe people already took the IE language from them before expanding west ( and east to SC Asia)?
2) as said before maybe they were not so interested to impose a language but rather to have a political power, looting and plundering ( as nomad people are used to wherever they go). A similar scenario happened in early medieval europe. Franks Longobards and Visigoths all plundered Italy, France and Spain they wiped away local elites, took the power but completely adapted to language and culture of the defeated part. Think about that.

Nobody answered my question that was about england but can be extended to al WC Europe. How is that we still score so high in EEF and WHG if we were wiped out from the kurgans?

rms2
05-15-2018, 05:12 PM
I think you're right. I disagree with rms2 on this one. I don't believe language was really key to this package, but it's not to say that they weren't speaking some form of IE. The Iberian situation with more local female admixture would lend to a situation where a local Neolithic language from the first farmers might have been adapted from females. (ie: Aquitanian, Iberian..etc)

The role of the male in these tribal societies was to defend the clan, and the emphasis on warriors. I don't see how this is necessarily linked to language.

I'm not sure what it is you disagree with me on.

I think the original Basque y-dna profile was not predominantly R1b-M269 but was I2a instead. IMHO, the Basques acquired R1b-M269 and steppe dna via admixture with their IE neighbors. Their matrilocal marriage tradition helped that along, bringing in outsider y-dna while simultaneously preserving the Basque language and culture.

I don't have my source for the Basque matrilocal custom handy, but as I recall it was based on the matriarchal nature of Basque society, its pre-Christian worship of the mother goddess Mari, its matrilineal inheritance laws, and its female-centered mythology.