PDA

View Full Version : Remedello and similar cultures in Italy



alan
09-30-2013, 02:26 PM
I wanted to start a thread here to get more information on this culture and hopefully some links or papers. I am particularly interested in RR's input. I just want to understand more about the nature, origins and links of this culture. There is just so little about it available on the web. It would be nice to gather papers and links in this thread. I only have found a few relating to this period and they tend to be about specialist aspects rather than an overview of the culture.

On the origins of copper working in Italy -dating evidence from graves

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+origins+of+metallurgy+in+central+Italy%3A+new+ radiometric+evidence.-a0238423230

One that touches of flint knives

http://www.academia.edu/1112588/The_Relation_between_Copper_and_Flint_Daggers_in_C halcolithic_Italy

Old paper in Italian on Rinaldone

http://www.academia.edu/538421/La_cultura_di_Rinaldone_e_lantica_eta_del_bronzo_a lla_luce_dei_nuovi_dati_note_di_metodo

Oldish general text discussing the Italian copper age cultures in some pages

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I91PZ6JVnR4C&pg=PA340&lpg=PA340&dq=rinaldone+dating+copper+in+burials&source=bl&ots=6G3g2qmc9s&sig=oG3fFCSkvc0i1AJwtTZJcidNMY0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FotJUpXmEMjR7Abv84D4CQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rinaldone%20dating%20copper%20in%20burials&f=false

Old paper on copper age in north Italy

http://www.academia.edu/2338525/B._Bagolini_P._Biagi_1990_-_The_Radiocarbon_Chronology_of_the_Neolithic_and_C opper_Age_of_Northern_Italy

On the origins of copper age groups etc in Italy - new but in Italian

http://www.academia.edu/1477965/Dolfini_A._Aranguren_B._and_M._Silvestrini_2011._L a_prima_metallurgia_in_Italia_centrale_alla_luce_d i_nuove_date_radiometriche_in_Atti_della_43_Riunio ne_Scientifica_dellIstituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria _e_Protostoria._Leta_del_Rame_in_Italia_171-79._Florence_Istituto_Italiano_di_Preistoria_e_Pro tostoria#

Another in Italian

http://www.iipp.it/?p=575

a relatively recent paper on head measuring that includes comments on Italy

http://www.archeo.mta.hu/hun/munkatars/kohlerkitti/6[1]._budakalasz_2010.pdf

rockart of Val Camonica

http://www.ssfpa.se/pdf/2008/anati_adorant08.pdf

not so old paper on the copper age in north Italy

Book on the origins of senseless violence that includes relevant stuff

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54201061/47/Menhir-Statues-The-First-Armed-Steles

paper in Italian on rinaldone and guado cultures

http://www.academia.edu/2020239/Rinaldone_e_Gaudo_in_un_territorio_di_confine_il_L azio_centro-meridionale

R.Rocca
09-30-2013, 05:06 PM
As per DeMarinis' work, Remedello is broken up into the following three phases:

Remedello I - 3400-2900 BC - copper daggers showing links to cultures north of the Alps, especially Pfyn & Altheim.
Remedello II - 2900-2400 BC - triangular daggers, pottery with metope patterns similar to that of the Languedoc "Fontbouisse Culture", itself dated to 2800-2200BC
Remedello III - 2400-2150 BC - Bell Beaker phase

The reason why material is lacking on the Remedello Culture is that it has only been considered a distinct culture since 1971. Prior to that, it was considered a Bell Beaker culture due to their common burial traits - the adult males were buried in a crouched position, almost always on the left side and oriented NW with an array of weapons, including copper daggers and archery equipment.

I can ask Jean to add the following to her library: L'età del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali.

greystones22
09-30-2013, 05:32 PM
slightly off topic, but I just figured out I am currently <1h drive from Otzi in Bolzano.
Has anyone been and is it worth the trip?

Jean M
09-30-2013, 05:54 PM
I can ask Jean to add the following to her library: L'età del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali.

Did you send it to me? Don't know what I've done with it in that case.


[Added] All sorted out now.

TigerMW
10-01-2013, 02:53 PM
As per DeMarinis' work, Remedello is broken up into the following three phases:

Remedello I - 3400-2900 BC - copper daggers showing links to cultures north of the Alps, especially Pfyn & Altheim.
Remedello II - 2900-2400 BC - triangular daggers, pottery with metope patterns similar to that of the Languedoc "Fontbouisse Culture", itself dated to 2800-2200BC
Remedello III - 2400-2150 BC - Bell Beaker phase

The reason why material is lacking on the Remedello Culture is that it has only been considered a distinct culture since 1971. Prior to that, it was considered a Bell Beaker culture due to their common burial traits - the adult males were buried in a crouched position, almost always on the left side and oriented NW with an array of weapons, including copper daggers and archery equipment...

I'd like to understand the transition from II to III, circa 2400 BC. Were there significant differences in metallurgy between II and III? Did the economic usefulness of copper products make any significant strides forward in III in contrast to I and II?
What are the implications as far as continuity or change between the phases of Remedello?

This might be critical to linking Remedello with Bell Beakers in France or Iberia. Significant advances in metallurgy were introduced at Rio Tinto somewhere along the line in the Bell Beaker sequence there (in the 3rd millenium BC). On the other hand, I'm not sure how advanced the metallurgy was in the Remedello area (Po valley, right?) during phases II and III. There might have been earlier advancement on the east side of the Adriatic. That would not be surprising but it would be good to understand the chronologies to see if Beaker advances in Iberia and the Po Valley were in parallel and what technologies they used and when.

R.Rocca
10-01-2013, 05:32 PM
I'd like to understand the transition from II to III, circa 2400 BC. Were there significant differences in metallurgy between II and III? Did the economic usefulness of copper products make any significant strides forward in III in contrast to I and II?
What are the implications as far as continuity or change between the phases of Remedello?

I forget the exact phrase that was used, but Franco Nicolis described the Bell Beaker period in Northern Italy as culturally 'depressed' compared to the pre-Beaker period. Stelae see some replacement of Remedello triangle daggers for the typical BB tanged dagger. Best I could tell, most post-Beaker daggers in N. Italy and C. Europe (i.e. Polada, Unetice) have more in common with the Remedello daggers due to the use of rivets, which BB daggers lacked. Remedello metallurgy also has some of the earliest examples of halberds in western Europe (if not the earliest), so no big change there with BB.


This might be critical to linking Remedello with Bell Beakers in France or Iberia. Significant advances in metallurgy were introduced at Rio Tinto somewhere along the line in the Bell Beaker sequence there (in the 3rd millenium BC). On the other hand, I'm not sure how advanced the metallurgy was in the Remedello area (Po valley, right?) during phases II and III. There might have been earlier advancement on the east side of the Adriatic. That would not be surprising but it would be good to understand the chronologies to see if Beaker advances in Iberia and the Po Valley were in parallel and what technologies they used and when.

Remedellans used arsenic copper for daggers and halberds whereas pure copper was used for axes. I'll have to check to see if I have anything regarding smelting/furnace techniques that may have been used.

TigerMW
10-01-2013, 05:52 PM
I forget the exact phrase that was used, but Franco Nicolis described the Bell Beaker period in Northern Italy as culturally 'depressed' compared to the pre-Beaker period. Stelae see some replacement of Remedello triangle daggers for the typical BB tanged dagger. Best I could tell, most post-Beaker daggers in N. Italy and C. Europe (i.e. Polada, Unetice) have more in common with the Remedello daggers due to the use of rivets, which BB daggers lacked. Remedello metallurgy also has some of the earliest examples of halberds in western Europe (if not the earliest), so no big change there with BB.

Remedellans used arsenic copper for daggers and halberds whereas pure copper was used for axes. I'll have to check to see if I have anything regarding smelting/furnace techniques that may have been used.

Thanks, Richard. Rats! That wasn't necessarily what I was expecting. I thought we might see a peaking of activity as Beaker folks engaged. Of course, all Beaker folks are not necessarily the same.

However, maybe this helps demonstrate Amzallag's Synthetic Theory and its economic differentiations to some degree.

Amzallag (2009), from ”From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations: The Synthetic Theory", showed the below chart. I see it doesn't touch the western side of the Adriatic Sea yet, but does show furnace smelting on the eastern side. Would that be the Vučedol culture?

Sorry, this may be a bit off-tangent to Remedello so I'll go post about this over on the "deeper-think Beakers" thread. I wish I could understand the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Ages in Iberia. I think Los Millares and the Argaric society were not furnace smelting. Also, the very early Beakers at Zambujal (Portugal) were not furnace smelting. Meanwhile, some phases at Rio Tinto and Cabrières were.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/Copper-Furnace_Smelting_3rdM_BC_Map_by_Amzallag-2009.jpg

See "deeper-think-about-beakers" related thread for the graphic.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1361-A-deeper-think-about-beakers-and-genes&p=14982&viewfull=1#post14982

TigerMW
10-01-2013, 07:48 PM
I forget the exact phrase that was used, but Franco Nicolis described the Bell Beaker period in Northern Italy as culturally 'depressed' compared to the pre-Beaker period. Stelae see some replacement of Remedello triangle daggers for the typical BB tanged dagger. Best I could tell, most post-Beaker daggers in N. Italy and C. Europe (i.e. Polada, Unetice) have more in common with the Remedello daggers due to the use of rivets, which BB daggers lacked. Remedello metallurgy also has some of the earliest examples of halberds in western Europe (if not the earliest), so no big change there with BB.

Remedellans used arsenic copper for daggers and halberds whereas pure copper was used for axes. I'll have to check to see if I have anything regarding smelting/furnace techniques that may have been used.

I think you looked at this before, but do you think that the Pre or Proto-Italic folks derive out of Villanova and Urnfield? I suppose this is kind of a U152 origin question too.

I just want to clarify, do we think either U152 or the Italic folks derive from Remedello? or is that a low odds kind of thing?

alan
10-03-2013, 02:05 PM
One on Remedello dagger imagery in France

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bspf_0249-7638_2005_num_102_2_13112

alan
10-03-2013, 02:14 PM
The concept of the bell beaker phase as some sort of peak of copper working is not what I have read in terms of southern Europe. I have heard a lot of comments that the variety and quality of beaker metalwork was less impressive than pre-beaker. The real change was the sheer spread of similar types was wide compared to more localism before.

As for the beaker phase being a period of depression in Italy, the closing off of the Ligurian mines c. 2600BC and the need to look elsewhere for ore could relate to this. Becoming an importer must to some extent have a negative aspect compared to having your own copper mines. You could actually say that that the north Italians have a good motive for the sudden and unexpected creation of much wider networks - more motive than those who were copper-rich at the time.

alan
10-03-2013, 02:16 PM
I certainly noticed I got far more success when googling Rinaldone.


As per DeMarinis' work, Remedello is broken up into the following three phases:

Remedello I - 3400-2900 BC - copper daggers showing links to cultures north of the Alps, especially Pfyn & Altheim.
Remedello II - 2900-2400 BC - triangular daggers, pottery with metope patterns similar to that of the Languedoc "Fontbouisse Culture", itself dated to 2800-2200BC
Remedello III - 2400-2150 BC - Bell Beaker phase

The reason why material is lacking on the Remedello Culture is that it has only been considered a distinct culture since 1971. Prior to that, it was considered a Bell Beaker culture due to their common burial traits - the adult males were buried in a crouched position, almost always on the left side and oriented NW with an array of weapons, including copper daggers and archery equipment.

I can ask Jean to add the following to her library: L'età del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali.

alan
10-03-2013, 02:19 PM
All chronology is of course subject to change and a bit of uncertainty. I think some may push back Remedello a century. I notice Rinaldone seems to be pushed back to 3600BC or earlier in the paper dating using burials with metal artifacts.


As per DeMarinis' work, Remedello is broken up into the following three phases:

Remedello I - 3400-2900 BC - copper daggers showing links to cultures north of the Alps, especially Pfyn & Altheim.
Remedello II - 2900-2400 BC - triangular daggers, pottery with metope patterns similar to that of the Languedoc "Fontbouisse Culture", itself dated to 2800-2200BC
Remedello III - 2400-2150 BC - Bell Beaker phase

The reason why material is lacking on the Remedello Culture is that it has only been considered a distinct culture since 1971. Prior to that, it was considered a Bell Beaker culture due to their common burial traits - the adult males were buried in a crouched position, almost always on the left side and oriented NW with an array of weapons, including copper daggers and archery equipment.

I can ask Jean to add the following to her library: L'età del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali.

alan
10-03-2013, 02:25 PM
A bit of reading around has shown how complex the chronology of tanged or riveted daggers is across the whole of southern Europe and Anatolia. Some very early daggers seem to have been tanged but in some areas a cultural preference led to the rejection of tanged daggers or a period of use followed by return to the riveted types. Years ago David Anthony did a piece reintepreting Childe's intepretations on daggers and reckoned the very first knives originated in the C-Trip cultures. However, a lot of the dates in this no longer seem to stand in the light of recent work and the whole chronology seems to have been pushed back several centuries. Its a surprisingly difficult subject to research, certainly on the web.


I forget the exact phrase that was used, but Franco Nicolis described the Bell Beaker period in Northern Italy as culturally 'depressed' compared to the pre-Beaker period. Stelae see some replacement of Remedello triangle daggers for the typical BB tanged dagger. Best I could tell, most post-Beaker daggers in N. Italy and C. Europe (i.e. Polada, Unetice) have more in common with the Remedello daggers due to the use of rivets, which BB daggers lacked. Remedello metallurgy also has some of the earliest examples of halberds in western Europe (if not the earliest), so no big change there with BB.



Remedellans used arsenic copper for daggers and halberds whereas pure copper was used for axes. I'll have to check to see if I have anything regarding smelting/furnace techniques that may have been used.

alan
10-03-2013, 03:13 PM
A very detailed paper about the archery aspects of Otzi and his attackers

http://www.academia.edu/1797803/Brizzi_V._Brizzi_A._2012_About_Iceman_Arrowhead

General book on Otzi - fairly old now

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J6-EHmI5AEcC&pg=PT176&lpg=PT176&dq=remedello+arrowheads&source=bl&ots=1HyVjOenjQ&sig=-HS1uXL7rv5GCxVAU461WWw7rTg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=S4pNUpzNIJSQ0QW6hIHoCA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=remedello%20arrowheads&f=false

R.Rocca
06-10-2015, 03:42 PM
As per DeMarinis' work, Remedello is broken up into the following three phases:

Remedello I - 3400-2900 BC - copper daggers showing links to cultures north of the Alps, especially Pfyn & Altheim.
Remedello II - 2900-2400 BC - triangular daggers, pottery with metope patterns similar to that of the Languedoc "Fontbouisse Culture", itself dated to 2800-2200BC
Remedello III - 2400-2150 BC - Bell Beaker phase

The reason why material is lacking on the Remedello Culture is that it has only been considered a distinct culture since 1971. Prior to that, it was considered a Bell Beaker culture due to their common burial traits - the adult males were buried in a crouched position, almost always on the left side and oriented NW with an array of weapons, including copper daggers and archery equipment.

I can ask Jean to add the following to her library: L'età del rame nel versante italiano delle Alpi centro-occidentali.

As I mentioned on another thread, the new Bronze Age study has two Remedello Culture males in it. While Remedello also has a Bell Beaker infusion around 2400 BC, the first sample pre-dates Bell Beaker in Italy and the date of the second was not given. The samples are as follows:

Sample: SAMEA3325386
Site: Remedello di Sotto
Culture: Remedello Culture
Location: Italy
Sex: Male
14C Date BP: 2908 BC
cal BC low: 2578 BC

Sample: SAMEA3325385
Site: Remedello di Sotto
Culture: Remedello Culture
Location: Italy
Sex: Male
14C Date BP: nd
cal BC low: nd

Diana
06-10-2015, 03:59 PM
[QUOTE=Richard A. Rocca;88323]As I mentioned on another thread, the new Bronze Age study has two Remedello Culture males in it. While Remedello also has a Bell Beaker infusion around 2400 BC, the first sample pre-dates Bell Beaker in Italy and the date of the second was not given. The samples are as follows:

Sample: SAMEA3325386
Site: Remedello di Sotto
Culture: Remedello Culture
Location: Italy
Sex: Male
14C Date BP: 2908 BC
cal BC low: 2578 BC

Sample: SAMEA3325385
Site: Remedello di Sotto
Culture: Remedello
--------------------------------------------------------

Now I'm excited! It's my dream to enroll in the Anthropology classes at the University here, get my dual citizenship and make some of these discoveries one day.

Thanks for the great news!

R.Rocca
06-10-2015, 05:53 PM
Based on the files I looked at, it looks like both Remedello Culture samples belong to haplogroup I:

SAMEA3325385 - positive for CTS6231/PF3750
SAMEA3325386 - positive for CTS4848/FI7/PF3736 and PF3829

These are extremely low coverage samples, so we will likely not get much resolution to the exact subclades.

Jean M
06-10-2015, 06:34 PM
Extract from Allentoft 2015:


Despite being slightly later, we find that the Copper Age Remedello culture in Italy does not have the ‘Caucasian’ genetic component and is still clustering genetically with Neolithic farmers (Fig. 2; Extended Data Fig. 1 and Supplementary Fig. 6). Hence this region was either unaffected by the Yamnaya expansion or the Remedello pre-dates such an expansion into southern Europe.

R.Rocca
06-10-2015, 06:35 PM
Extract from Allentoft 2015:

The question we've asked for years has now been answered. Awesome!

Jean M
06-10-2015, 06:53 PM
The question we've asked for years has now been answered. Awesome!

Not sure about that. Looks like these samples were from Remedello I. That still leaves Remedello II.

vettor
06-10-2015, 06:54 PM
Based on the files I looked at, it looks like both Remedello Culture samples belong to haplogroup I:

SAMEA3325385 - positive for CTS6231/PF3750
SAMEA3325386 - positive for CTS4848/FI7/PF3736 and PF3829

These are extremely low coverage samples, so we will likely not get much resolution to the exact subclades.

it looks like I2 and I2a ..............same as Sardinians and "illyria" - Remedello shows only I2 and I2a ................north-adriatic sea area was once land joining italy and modern croatia as far south as Ancona

There is also I2b1 to note - which is stated as only north-adriatic lands

Megalophias
06-10-2015, 07:01 PM
In f3 stats it seems Bell Beaker can be modelled as a mixture of Remedello and Yamnaya. But looking at the table Bronze Age steppe groups can also be done with Remedello as a source population, so I guess it is probably just representing Middle Neolithic.

alan
06-10-2015, 07:43 PM
Not sure about that. Looks like these samples were from Remedello I. That still leaves Remedello II.

That was my first thought too. What dates are on them? Post-2900BC would be Remdedello II.

vettor
06-11-2015, 06:10 AM
I would like to know peoples thoughts on this:

If I1 is Germanic/Scandinavian and I2 is Remedel/Sardinian/"illyrian" then could the split of I haplogroup have happened in the northern-Alps/Bavaria? ......and not further east?

take note that I2b1 is a north-adriatic marker

Another question is the mtDNa of X2 for Remedel as per the chart. ..................the only decent amount of percentage in europe of near Europe fro this is from the Druze ..........who are the Druze in ethnicity?

vettor
06-11-2015, 06:14 AM
What parts does Remedel culture play in

The Polada culture (22nd to 16th centuries BC) is the name for a culture of the ancient Bronze Age which spread primarily in the territory of modern-day Lombardy, Veneto and Trentino, characterized by settlements on pile-dwellings.

and

The Este culture was a proto-historic culture existed from the late Italian Bronze Age (10th-9th century BC)

R.Rocca
06-11-2015, 06:36 PM
That was my first thought too. What dates are on them? Post-2900BC would be Remdedello II.

Sample: RISE487
cal BC: 3483-3107 cal BC (Remedello I)
Sample: RISE489
cal BC: 2908-2578 cal BC (Remedello I-II)
Sample: RISE486
cal BC: 2134-1773 cal BC (Remedello III)

So now we have three male Remedello Culture samples from across the three phases, and all belong to haplogroup I2. All three look like they are solidly in the "Early European Farmer" camp and, according to the paper, do not have the Steppe component. Basically they are very "Otzi-like", and we know he belonged to common EEF haplogroup G2a. Otzi also carried a Remedello copper axe when they found him. The situation in Italy recalls the one in France, where the Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte samples (2750-2725 BC) were I2a, and the 3000 BC Treilles samples, which were either G2a or I2a . The Remedello samples from this study are also close to modern day Sardinians, which we know are heavily I2a. Figure 2b does seem to show a slight hint of Steppe ancestry for one of the Remedello samples, which I'm guessing is the Remedello III one. Bell Beaker material starts to appear in the Remedello di Sotto cemetery during Remedello III.

IMO, this all strongly suggests that the creators of the Northern Italian stelae belonged to haplogroup I2. The chronology and typography would be in line with Harrison & Heyd's Type A stelae (also with Remedello daggers) at Sion and Aosta. The smashing of the older stelae would have been orchestrated by Bell Beaker men belonging almost exclusively to R1b, and more specifically to R-P312. They would then take up the use of Type B stelae thereafter.

vettor
06-11-2015, 06:40 PM
Sample: RISE487
cal BC: 3483-3107 cal BC (Remedello I)
Sample: RISE489
cal BC: 2908-2578 cal BC (Remedello I-II)
Sample: RISE486
cal BC: 2134-1773 cal BC (Remedello III)

So now we have three male Remedello Culture samples from across the three phases, and all belong to haplogroup I2. All three look like they are solidly in the Early European Farmer camp and according to the paper, do not have the Steppe component. Basically they are very "Otzi-like", and we know he belonged to common EEF haplogroup G2a. Otzi also carried a Remedello copper axe when they found him. The situation in Italy recalls the one in France, where the Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte samples (2750-2725 BC) were I2a, and the 3000 BC Treilles samples which were either G2a or I2a . The Remedello samples from this study are also close to modern day Sardinians, which we know are heavily I2a. Figure 2b does seem to show a slight hint of Steppe ancestry for one of the Remedello samples, which I'm guessing is the Remedello III one. Bell Beaker material starts to appear in the Remedello di Sotto cemetery during Remedello III.

IMO, this all strongly suggests that the creators of the Northern Italian stelae belonged to haplogroup I2. The chronology and typography would be in line with Harrison & Heyd's Type A stelae (also with Remedello daggers) at Sion and Aosta. The smashing of the older stelae would have been orchestrated by Bell Beaker men belonging almost exclusively to R1b, and more specifically to R-P312. They would then take up the use of Type B stelae thereafter.

thanks
we also have I2 in Hungary ....which was once called Pannonia ......which was once "illyrian" before becoming part dacian later ( middle iron-age)

Are the Hun I2 the same as Remedello?

TigerMW
06-12-2015, 01:34 AM
Sample: RISE487
cal BC: 3483-3107 cal BC (Remedello I)
Sample: RISE489
cal BC: 2908-2578 cal BC (Remedello I-II)
Sample: RISE486
cal BC: 2134-1773 cal BC (Remedello III)

So now we have three male Remedello Culture samples from across the three phases, and all belong to haplogroup I2. All three look like they are solidly in the "Early European Farmer" camp and, according to the paper, do not have the Steppe component. Basically they are very "Otzi-like", and we know he belonged to common EEF haplogroup G2a. Otzi also carried a Remedello copper axe when they found him. The situation in Italy recalls the one in France, where the Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte samples (2750-2725 BC) were I2a, and the 3000 BC Treilles samples, which were either G2a or I2a . The Remedello samples from this study are also close to modern day Sardinians, which we know are heavily I2a. Figure 2b does seem to show a slight hint of Steppe ancestry for one of the Remedello samples, which I'm guessing is the Remedello III one. Bell Beaker material starts to appear in the Remedello di Sotto cemetery during Remedello III.

IMO, this all strongly suggests that the creators of the Northern Italian stelae belonged to haplogroup I2. The chronology and typography would be in line with Harrison & Heyd's Type A stelae (also with Remedello daggers) at Sion and Aosta. The smashing of the older stelae would have been orchestrated by Bell Beaker men belonging almost exclusively to R1b, and more specifically to R-P312. They would then take up the use of Type B stelae thereafter.
It is my opinion too that western R1b (i.e. P312), was a late comer, in a Yamanaya-ized sub-type of Bell Beakers. The Bronze Age had already entered Europe but they probably brought in the newer metalworking.

MT1976
07-09-2015, 02:03 AM
Thanks for those links, Alan