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poi
04-01-2018, 06:58 AM
Most of the paper (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/31/292581.full.pdf) is beyond my comprehension until somebody dumbs it all down, but I saw the estimates of Steppe-Indus-Onge in the supplementary sheet (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/31/292581.figures-only). Well, here is the PCA based on just that:

Biplot
https://i.imgur.com/rITreLb.png
https://i.imgur.com/rITreLbr.png

PCA - Variance coverage is ~100%
https://i.imgur.com/2PaZb8A.png
https://i.imgur.com/2PaZb8Ar.png

Sapporo
04-01-2018, 07:41 AM
I'm pretty sure the Jatt Sikh samples are mislabeled in some manner. They are scoring exceedingly low Indus Disapora (Majority Iran Farmer + AASI + ANE/West Siberian) in comparison to Punjabi Khatri, Gujarati A, Gujarati Lohana, etc. and more AASI than Bihari Brahmins, Yadavs from UP and Rajasthan, Haryana Baniya, etc. If you compare Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatri, you wouldn't even think they score remotely similar on admixture calculators when in fact on Harappa, I usually get Punjabi Khatri in my top 3. So do my parents.

Here is the link to the excel admixture breakdowns from the paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/03/31/292581.DC1/292581-2.xlsx

Here are some scores from my other post:



Punjabi_Khatri - 61% Indus Diaspora + 26.1% Steppe MLBA + 12.9% Onge AASI related

Kashmiri_Pandit - 62.7% Indus Diaspora + 21.9% Steppe MLBA 15.4% Onge AASI related

Muslim_Kashmiri - 60.5% Indus Diaspora + 19.6% Steppe MLBA + 19.9% Onge AASI related

Dogra_Jammu - 60.8% Indus Diaspora + 22.2% Steppe MLBA + 17% Onge AASI related

Jatt_Sikh - 55% Indus Diaspora + 24.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.8% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_A - 63.6% Indus Diaspora + 24.5% Steppe MLBA + 11.9% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_Lohana - 64% Indus Diaspora + 25.1% Steppe MLBA + 10.9% Onge AASI related

Yadav_Rajasthan - 61.5% Indus Diaspora + 22.4% Steppe MLBA + 16.1% Onge AASI related

Yadav_UP - 61.1% Indus Diaspora + 21.3% Steppe MLBA + 17.6% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Haryana - 58.6% Indus Diaspora + 23.5% Steppe MLBA + 17.9% Onge AASI related

Rajput_Haryana - 58.8% Indus Disapsora + 20.9% Steppe MLBA + 20.3% Onge AASI related

Bhumihar_Bihar - 54.5% Indus Diaspora + 25.4% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Nepal - 53.6% Indus Diaspora + 23.4% Steppe MLBA + 23.0% Onge ASSI related

Brahmin_UP - 52.2% Indus Diaspora + 24.4% Steppe MLBA + 23.4% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Tiwari - 53% Indus Diaspora + 25.0% Steppe MLBA + 22.0% Onge AASI related

note: Tiwari Brahmins are from Chattisgarh

Gujarati B - 57.7% Indus Diaspora + 21% Steppe MLBA + 21.3% Onge AASI related

Gujarati C - 58.7% Indus Diaspora + 16.2% Steppe MLBA + 25.1% Onge AASI related

Haryana Baniya - 61.7% Indus Diaspora + 18.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Karnataka - 57.5% Indus Diaspora + 18.6% Steppe MLBA + 23.9% Onge AASI related

note: Indus Diaspora is the Iran Farmer like component. It is part majority Iran Farmer like but part ASI and part West Siberian like as pegasus explained in the other thread.

Edit: I am going to also inquire into getting the 41 Jatt Sikh individual's results from Dr. Reich. It's possible there are outliers, mixed individuals or non Jatt Sikhs in the average with them being the largest ethnoreligious group in Indian Punjab. Many non Jatt Sikhs take on Jatt Sikh clan names and in rare cases might even identify as such.

I'm also unsure of how they are accounting for East Asian admixture. Reich and co decided not to include some East Asian admixed Eastern Indo-Aryan populations such as Bengalis but what happens for the minor but notable East Asian in Nepali Brahmins for example? Does it just go into AASI? I think it's also possible the Nepali Brahmins here a bit different than the Nepali Brahmin members on the forum like the academic samples lukasz had in his Eurogenes K36 data.

@poi/pnb123, can either if you confirm if they're the same eastern shifted samples (relative to you guys) that lukasz has in his set?

anthroin
04-01-2018, 12:17 PM
Deleted

Censored
04-01-2018, 08:33 PM
I'm pretty sure the Jatt Sikh samples are mislabeled in some manner. They are scoring exceedingly low Indus Disapora in comparison to Punjabi Khatri, Gujarati A, Gujarati Lohana, etc. and more AASI than Bihari Brahmins, Yadavs from UP and Rajasthan, Haryana Baniya, etc. If you compare Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatri, you wouldn't even think they score remotely similar on admixture calculators when in fact on Harappa, I usually get Punjabi Khatri in my top 3. So do my parents.

Here is the link to the excel admixture breakdowns from the paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/03/31/292581.DC1/292581-2.xlsx

Here are some scores from my other post:



Punjabi_Khatri - 61% Iran Farmer + 26.1% Steppe MLBA + 12.9% Onge AASI related

Kashmiri_Pandit - 62.7% Iran Farmer + 21.9% Steppe MLBA 15.4% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_A - 63.6% Iran Farmer + 24.5% Steppe MLBA + 11.9% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_Lohana - 64% Iran Farmer + 25.1% Steppe MLBA + 10.9% Onge AASI related

Yadav_Rajasthan - 61.5% Iran Farmer + 22.4% Steppe MLBA + 16.1% Onge AASI related

Yadav_UP - 61.1% Iran Farmer + 21.3% Steppe MLBA + 17.6% Onge AASI related

Muslim_Kashmiri - 60.5% Iran Farmer + 19.6% Steppe MLBA + 19.9% Onge AASI related

Dogra_Jammu - 60.8% Iran Farmer + 22.2% Steppe MLBA + 17% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Haryana - 58.6% Iran Farmer + 23.5% Steppe MLBA + 17.9% Onge AASI related

Jatt_Sikh - 55% Iran Farmer + 24.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.8% Onge AASI related

Bhumihar_Bihar - 54.5% Iran Farmer + 25.4% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_UP - 52.2% Iran Farmer + 24.4% Steppe MLBA + 23.4% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Tiwari - 53% Iran Farmer + 25.0% Steppe MLBA + 22.0% Onge AASI related

note: Tiwari Brahmins are from Chattisgarh

Gujarati B - 57.7% Iran Farmer + 21% Steppe MLBA + 21.3% Onge AASI related

Haryana Baniya - 61.7% Iran Farmer + 18.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Karnataka - 57.5% Iran Farmer + 18.6% Steppe MLBA + 23.9% Onge AASI related

note: Iran Farmer in this case is Indus diaspora. It is part ASI as pegasus explained in the other thread.

Edit: I am going to also inquire into getting the 41 Jatt Sikh individual's results from Dr. Reich. It's possible there are outliers, mixed individuals or non Jatt Sikhs in the average with them being the largest ethnoreligious group in Indian Punjab. Many non Jatt Sikhs take on Jatt Sikh clan names and in rare cases might even identify as such.

How is Iran farmer part ASI? I thought ASI was strictly Onge related Austroloid type DNA. Sorry I'm new at this stuff.

Varun R
04-01-2018, 08:54 PM
How is Iran farmer part ASI? I thought ASI was strictly Onge related Austroloid type DNA. Sorry I'm new at this stuff.

It's not Iran Farmer but Indus Periphery, which is about 1/4 AASI, per the paper. The paper supplement stipulates that Iran Neolithic has no AASI ancestry.

Censored
04-01-2018, 09:27 PM
It's not Iran Farmer but Indus Periphery, which is about 1/4 AASI, per the paper. The paper supplement stipulates that Iran Neolithic has no AASI ancestry.

Okay, for a second I thought Sapporo was referring to the chart that he posted, my mistake. So would the South Indian component in Harappaworld basically be Onge-type+some Iran neolithic?

khanabadoshi
04-02-2018, 12:28 AM
Everyone read page 96 of the supplementary...

A very interesting list of groups considered fringe South Asians, Balochi and Brahui in this list. Implications are interesting.
An even more interesting list of 7 populations excluded due to statistically significant African ancestry... in this list Sindhis, Gujjars, and Kamboj are found...

They didn't bother addressing any population that doesn't help their cline. ie. the hard ones. It's a cop out to not model Baloch, Brahui, Makrani -- as how you model each of them them shows your theory of the ethnogenesis of the region in numbers and not words. Massive cop out for not modeling Sindhi. Seriously.
Bengali is too East Eurasian to consider in the South Asian cluster... !!!!

Furthermore, I'm getting the impression that the suggestion that certain populations are fringe populations (like Baloch), the authors are implying that their Iran N is independent/not-related to to Iran N/AASI story for the rest of South Asia as mediated via Indus-periphery.
By not including these populations in the model and saying they are atypical, it seems to me they are passively proposing that they are not necessary to explain the ethnogenesis of the region. ie. they are later arrivals, and they are not the source of Iran N, nor received Iran N from the Indus-periphery.

I haven't read the entire paper in detail at all. Just skimmed through, because what stood out to me IMMEDIATELY were plots with no Iranian population, no Baloch, no Sindhi, no Tajik, no Bengali.
Magically, on academic papers they decided to make a Jatt Sikh group and a Chaudhary ethnic group!? I highly doubt that idea occurred in a vacuum.... I think the South Asian community on AG's collective efforts to sort things out may have been absorbed via osmosis.
Kalash, Pathan, Khatri and Lohana at one end of the spectrum and Pulliyar at the other, and Chamar... another.....? I don't even know how to frame it. They cut out the populations we use to bound everyone between.
Of course the Brahmin groups will stand out with significant Steppe ancestry, the analysis didn't include the majority of ethnic groups that live between the Brahmins and the Pashtun and Kalash.... except the Jatt Sikh.

They basically define South Asia as 2 populations from Pakistan + India. They excluded the rest of Pakistan, south of the northwestern corner of KPK and Northeastern Punjab as fringe and atypical. In India they exclude all of Bengal and AAs, and additionally, they don't consider Bangladesh.
Somehow the Kalash fit perfectly, but Burusho are too "W Eurasian" to consider -- Chaudhary is a real ethnicity on the plot, and there are no other populations in Northern Pakistan that exist to plot.
Somehow Iran N is super important, but let's not model any modern population in the region in which it peaks, or even attempt to explain how they fit in to the ethnogenesis of the region.

Anyways, don't hold me to any of this. I barely read the paper in detail. These is just my immediate reaction to their choice of modern samples. The way they are framing "who" is South Asian is lazy, and allows them to escape defending an unambiguous theory of the peopling of the region.
I have this whole theory regarding Sindh, Jatts, Khoja, Lohana, Gujarat, South India, etc. that rests on on how Baloch, Makrani, Brahui, Bandari are modeled. Disappointed I can't build on it.

jesus
04-02-2018, 12:33 AM
@Khana they didn’t even bother to model groups from central Asian or Iran. Not even Afghans or Tajiks. And most of the samples in the paper came from Central Asia and Iran. They should remove the world Central from the title.

India does not release ancient samples but gets the most modeling. It’s a conspiracy!(just kidding).

Mingle
04-02-2018, 12:56 AM
Bengali is too East Eurasian to consider in the South Asian cluster... !!!!

Didn't poi post a PCA before that showed Bengalis cluster with Sinhalas? If Sinhalas cluster with Bengalis despite barely having any East Eurasian, then why does EE admixture cause Bengalis to drop outside of the PCA plot?

Do West Bengalis also have significant EE admixture?

khanabadoshi
04-02-2018, 01:19 AM
@Khana they didn’t even bother to model groups from central Asian or Iran. Not even Afghans or Tajiks. And most of the samples in the paper came from Central Asia and Iran. They should remove the world Central from the title.

India does release the ancient samples but gets the most modeling. It’s a conspiracy!(just kidding).

Seriously... I was just thinking that... the audacity of a PCA to have a Kalash dot... and no Yaghnobi, Shugnan, Rushan.
How can a paper talk to me about Iran N, and not plot a single Iranian! ARGHHH!
Jesus... a landmark paper which attempts to tell us definitively who banged whom on either side of the Hindu Kush felt it prudent to subdivide a group called Brahmin_Catholic into 3 distinct points. Jesus, this same paper has a single point for "Pathan".


They attempt to explain the Summer holiday travel routes of a bunch of fanny-packed Ancients by showing me signs that their unruly kids took a sharpie and etched, 'Andronovo wuz here in spirit' in every stall of every truckstop in the entire subcontinent, except the truck-stops where the Ancients actually pulled over and had a cup of chai in.

khanabadoshi
04-02-2018, 01:27 AM
Didn't poi post a PCA before that showed Bengalis cluster with Sinhalas? If Sinhalas cluster with Bengalis despite barely having any East Eurasian, then why does EE admixture cause Bengalis to drop outside of the PCA plot?

Do West Bengalis also have significant EE admixture?

I misread, the Bengalis were "not included in an analysis cluster"; so they were plotted but not considered in their divvying up of South Asia.

https://gyazo.com/503ab49cebe2f78ac9ad295fa3730b4e.png
https://i.gyazo.com/2c6e1e21072ecbc4ff21f0322f029ba5.png

Mingle
04-02-2018, 01:42 AM
I'm still confused on one thing though. How is it possible for Bengalis and Sinhalas to cluster together when one has a significant amount of East Eurasian that is close to non-existent in the other?

Mingle
04-02-2018, 01:47 AM
Jesus, this same paper has a single point for "Pathan".

Also, the 'HGDP Pathan' here is considerably southern plotting for a Pashtun from Pakistan. I don't understand why it continues to be included in academic papers when it isn't a representative sample. The HGDP Pathan seems to be genetically like a Jatt or Khatri sample. The 'Pakistan_Pashtun' used in the oracle for K23b and K13 is much more representative.

poi
04-02-2018, 02:58 AM
Seriously... I was just thinking that... the audacity of a PCA to have a Kalash dot... and no Yaghnobi, Shugnan, Rushan.
How can a paper talk to me about Iran N, and not plot a single Iranian! ARGHHH!
Jesus... a landmark paper which attempts to tell us definitively who banged whom on either side of the Hindu Kush felt it prudent to subdivide a group called Brahmin_Catholic into 3 distinct points. Jesus, this same paper has a single point for "Pathan".


They attempt to explain the Summer holiday travel routes of a bunch of fanny-packed Ancients by showing me signs that their unruly kids took a sharpie and etched, 'Andronovo wuz here in spirit' in every stall of every truckstop in the entire subcontinent, except the truck-stops where the Ancients actually pulled over and had a cup of chai in.

LMAO!! I know the frustration, but it was hilarious the way you framed it. But part of me is happy at least they included my own ethnic group in there. It was probably the case because the same Reich group studied the genetic diseases in Nepali endogamous groups last year.

pnb123
04-02-2018, 04:57 AM
LMAO!! I know the frustration, but it was hilarious the way you framed it. But part of me is happy at least they included my own ethnic group in there. It was probably the case because the same Reich group studied the genetic diseases in Nepali endogamous groups last year.

How seriously are we supposed to take this paper ? The PCA here looks nothing like the one you posted before. I also feel the lack of enough samples from populations. They just used 1 sample per population for the most part.

pegasus
04-02-2018, 05:29 AM
@Khana they didnít even bother to model groups from central Asian or Iran. Not even Afghans or Tajiks. And most of the samples in the paper came from Central Asia and Iran. They should remove the world Central from the title.

India does not release ancient samples but gets the most modeling. Itís a conspiracy!(just kidding).

It would have been nice to compare with modern day Eastern Iranians from near the site , as well as Southern Iranians after all Shahr e Shokta is in Iran . S/SE Iran has maintained a strong continuum since the Neolithic. Interestingly the Steppe element to the paper was quite underwhelming, I was expecting very Steppe shifted samples that was not the case. The main take away was the various iterations of how Neolithic Iranian ancestry has mixed , how it has existed in almost unmixed form well into the early Bronze Age ( like the Afghan sample ), how the IVC contributed to the BMAC and existence of the ANE rich Central Asian "ghost" population ie Siberian HG / Kelteminar.

Mingle
04-02-2018, 06:44 AM
^ Southern Iranians as well as Northeast (Khorasani) Iranians and Herati Tajiks. I'd be curious as to how far apart those grouos are from us.

poi
04-02-2018, 06:45 AM
Here is my summary wrt the South Asians.

Basically, we were expecting the Swat valley samples to be rich in Steppe and full of R1a, i.e. the Indo Aryan signal. Well, it turn out that the samples examined in this batch are less Steppe than the modern populations and have no R1a before 300BCE. Not the exclamation mark on the mass Aryan invasion that was supposed to turn the subcontinent upside down. Oh well.

It could very well be the case where they will not be finding mass R1a even if R1a did indeed turn out to be the patrilineal Aryans. If the Aryans were cremating their dead, good luck with aDNA. Sigh.

Hopefully we will know more about the Rakhigarhi samples soon.

Coldmountains
04-02-2018, 07:27 AM
Here is my summary wrt the South Asians.

Basically, we were expecting the Swat valley samples to be rich in Steppe and full of R1a, i.e. the Indo Aryan signal. Well, it turn out that the samples examined in this batch are less Steppe than the modern populations and have no R1a before 300BCE. Not the exclamation mark on the mass Aryan invasion that was supposed to turn the subcontinent upside down. Oh well.

It could very well be the case where they will not be finding mass R1a even if R1a did indeed turn out to be the patrilineal Aryans. If the Aryans were cremating their dead, good luck with aDNA. Sigh.

Hopefully we will know more about the Rakhigarhi samples soon.

On the otherside in Tajikistan (Dashti-Kozy) and Ferghana (Kashkarchi) there were pastoralists, which look almost like Sintashta clones. It also seems that they bypassed BMAC so some later immigrations of Indo-Aryans could dramatically increase R1a and steppe ancestry. If i am not wrong there were different immigration waves of Indo-Aryans. For example the Kuru came later than Rigvedic tribes

bmoney
04-02-2018, 08:13 AM
I have no idea why Bengalis were excluded.

Bengalis are not the only SA pop with NE Asian or AA admixture, the admixture extends to Bihar Orissa Nepal Chattisgarh Jharkhand etc meaning its quite significant numerically to SA.

Also baffled as to why Brahui/Baloch were excluded, wanted to know how much they resemble the modelled Indus diaspora group

Kanenas
04-02-2018, 09:01 AM
You can ignore what I say but according to the Greek sources (based on myths that may or may not have been based on actual events) there were two movements to 'India' (the region around Indus, therefore basically mostly around Pakistan), one older associated with Dionysus [who has Thracian & Phrygian (Brigian) connections] and the spread of agriculture according to the story, the other associated to 'Egyptian Heracles'. I will leave the first aside. Concerning the second the following is interesting:

All from Udegram_IA in Swat valley

7725.E1.L1.........M65a1.........E1b1b1b2......... 831-796 calBCE
S8191.E1.L1.......T2a1b..........E1b1b1b2......... 894-798 calBCE
S8195.E1.L1.......U8b1a2b......E1b1b1b2.........89 5-801 calBCE
S8194.E1.L1.......R30a1b........H1a1a............. .900-800 BCE
I3261...................................DE........ ...........921-831 calBCE
I1992.................H2a2...........E1a.......... .......921-831 calBCE
I6899...................................E1b1b1b2.. .......921-831 calBCE
I6900...................................E1b1b1b2.. .......927-831 calBCE
I1985.................M................E1b1b1b2a.. .....968-833 calBCE
I3262................ H14a...........E1b1b1b2a........974-836 calBCE
I6197.................M65a...........A0-T.................974-836 calBCE
I1799.................T2a1b..........E1b1b1b2..... ....992-830 calBCE

What is the genetic profile of those samples?

Sapporo
04-02-2018, 11:27 AM
Everyone read page 96 of the supplementary...

A very interesting list of groups considered fringe South Asians, Balochi and Brahui in this list. Implications are interesting.
An even more interesting list of 7 populations excluded due to statistically significant African ancestry... in this list Sindhis, Gujjars, and Kamboj are found...

This makes no sense. Most of the HGDP Sindhis have no African ancestry. In fact, only 2 samples have notable West African admixture in the 8-10% range (likely from Siddis or Makrani) and two have minor W African admixture (2-4%). As for Gujjars and Kamboj, they shouldn't be scoring any African admixture based on geography but even then, outliers could have been thrown out. My guess is they didn't have enough Gujjar and Kamboj samples to do so?

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/



They didn't bother addressing any population that doesn't help their cline. ie. the hard ones. It's a cop out to not model Baloch, Brahui, Makrani -- as how you model each of them them shows your theory of the ethnogenesis of the region in numbers and not words. Massive cop out for not modeling Sindhi. Seriously.
Bengali is too East Eurasian to consider in the South Asian cluster... !!!!Yeah, for Sindhis, they had a very weak excuse. They could have just tossed 4 of the HGDP Sindhi samples if necessary. As for the Baloch, Brahui and Makrani, they could have removed the ones with African admixture. I guess the issue was they couldn't be modeled properly with Indus diaspora (Indus periphery) due to low levels of AASI admixture nor with Steppe MLBA due to very low Steppe levels. Well, if that's the case, why not model them with just Iran N, Steppe MLBA and AASI (ie without using Indus Periphery) and put it in the supplementary data? Perhaps, add another ancient West Asian population if necessary to make them fit?



Furthermore, I'm getting the impression that the suggestion that certain populations are fringe populations (like Baloch), the authors are implying that their Iran N is independent/not-related to to Iran N/AASI story for the rest of South Asia as mediated via Indus-periphery.
By not including these populations in the model and saying they are atypical, it seems to me they are passively proposing that they are not necessary to explain the ethnogenesis of the region. ie. they are later arrivals, and they are not the source of Iran N, nor received Iran N from the Indus-periphery.

Exactly, I'm not sure what implications are meant to be drawn from the lack of not including the Baloch, Brahui and Makrani. For years, we thought their data was crucial to the understanding of ancient South Asian ancestral populations.



I haven't read the entire paper in detail at all. Just skimmed through, because what stood out to me IMMEDIATELY were plots with no Iranian population, no Baloch, no Sindhi, no Tajik, no Bengali.
Magically, on academic papers they decided to make a Jatt Sikh group and a Chaudhary ethnic group!? I highly doubt that idea occurred in a vacuum.... I think the South Asian community on AG's collective efforts to sort things out may have been absorbed via osmosis.
I'm still wondering where they got the autosomal data for 41 Jatt Sikh samples. There wasn't a single academic paper that included their autosomal data to my knowledge. The 2017 Mahal paper was focused only on Y-DNA as far as I'm aware. I didn't realize they had the autosomal data available. Regardless, that begs the question why they had so many Jatt Sikh samples (41) and so little of others such as Punjabi Khatri (3) and Gujarati Lohana (2) or even Gujarati A (4). Especially, considering the Gujarati A data has more than 4 samples available.



Kalash, Pathan, Khatri and Lohana at one end of the spectrum and Pulliyar at the other, and Chamar... another.....? I don't even know how to frame it. They cut out the populations we use to bound everyone between.
Of course the Brahmin groups will stand out with significant Steppe ancestry, the analysis didn't include the majority of ethnic groups that live between the Brahmins and the Pashtun and Kalash.... except the Jatt Sikh.

Well, I guess they did include the Punjabi Khatris and Gujarati Lohana (proxy for Hindu Sindhis and Sindhi Lohana?).



They basically define South Asia as 2 populations from Pakistan + India. They excluded the rest of Pakistan, south of the northwestern corner of KPK and Northeastern Punjab as fringe and atypical. In India they exclude all of Bengal and AAs, and additionally, they don't consider Bangladesh.
My guess is the Burusho were excluded due to their East Asian admixture as well? Otherwise, they're quite similar to the HGDP Pathan and Kalash. Only explanation I could think of.



Somehow the Kalash fit perfectly, but Burusho are too "W Eurasian" to consider -- Chaudhary is a real ethnicity on the plot, and there are no other populations in Northern Pakistan that exist to plot.

Yeah, some of the sample naming mechanisms and labeling leaves a lot to be desired.

anthroin
04-02-2018, 02:00 PM
Here is my summary wrt the South Asians.

Basically, we were expecting the Swat valley samples to be rich in Steppe and full of R1a, i.e. the Indo Aryan signal. Well, it turn out that the samples examined in this batch are less Steppe than the modern populations and have no R1a before 300BCE. Not the exclamation mark on the mass Aryan invasion that was supposed to turn the subcontinent upside down. Oh well.

It could very well be the case where they will not be finding mass R1a even if R1a did indeed turn out to be the patrilineal Aryans. If the Aryans were cremating their dead, good luck with aDNA. Sigh.

Hopefully we will know more about the Rakhigarhi samples soon.

I agree except point out that it appears that the consensus from Indology is that there was an Indo-Aryan migration not an ultra-violent Indo-Aryan invasion, though both may overlap to a certain extent (for that matter, the movement of Iranian agriculturalists into India is an invasion, the movement of Austroasiatic languages into India is an invasion, the movement of Dravidian languages to India/south India is an invasion, everything can be said to be an invasion). The interpretation of Rigveda and other texts leads the Indologists to that conclusion, I believe.

The R1a mystery is not yet clarified and perhaps is really going to be a bit difficult, as you say, because of potential cremation of many R1as and other stuff; in case the R1a truly came with later known steppe groups like Kushans, etc., it has had such dramatic effect over all of India though; and if the major steppe ancestry was also accompanied by these R1a bearing later Iranian-speaking groups, as opposed to the conclusions of the paper that the Swat Valley samples can be truly modeled as true Steppe_MLBA (the putative Indo-Aryans being pre-Scythian and post-Yamna, etc.) plus others, then it again has to be noted how massive of an effect these Iranian-speaking groups had on India culturally, and the elevated steppe ancestry in Brahmins should be explained as because of admixture between the Indian elite and the new Iranian elite.

It is all messy to me right now regarding the extent to which the paper's results go towards conclusively showing an Indo-Aryan migration into India. While the first movement towards that can be thought of as happened, it is definitely not conclusive in my opinion and it is much more helpful if they get aDNA from Cemetery H, etc. etc. (corresponding to the time the Indo-Aryans also likely buried their people) to document this more clearly. Till then, the Indus people can continue to be very well be Indo-Aryans (not to the people believing in academic consensus but for opposers of the consensus) though funnily or not, the Out-of-India theory for Indo-European languages is pretty much completely ruled out because the Iranian agriculturalists most likely moved into India from some place some where not the other way around.

According to me though, as I share the view of the consensus more or less (I came to doubt it a while ago but it seems I was mistaken and the consensus is after all basically correct it appears), the absence of Steppe-related ancestry in the Indus diaspora (who were really very likely to be true Indus diaspora according to me), which according to me correlates with Indo-European languages, seems to imply that Indo-Aryan came to India after IVC or at the end of it, not at the beginning of it or a while before it (their steppe signal could have vanished by the time of the diaspora though, I can't evaluate how likely this possibility is).

Overall for me personally, this paper is not about Indo-Aryan migrations at all (just the first step towards showing that) but about the proof of the presence of Ancient Ancestral "South" Indian ancestry in the ancient Indus diaspora individuals who died in Eastern Iran and BMAC. This tiny little diaspora group will always be held dear by me and I will be extremely disappointed if it turns out that these three folks did not have anything to do with the Indus tradition.

And forgot to add, the details of Dravidian invasion (why should only Indo-Aryans have all the fun? lol) into south India (or the lack thereof? This possibility quite unlikely in my view though) are also nowhere near clear with this research, just like the details of Indo-Aryan migration. For that to be known somewhat more conclusively, aDNA from pre-Southern Neolithic, Ashmound phase of the Southern Neolithic, and later phases of the same Neolithic have to be obtained and analysed. But some strange (only to me?) things seem to be implied by their modeling of Malayalam-languages-speaking tribal groups of Kerala as having almost pure ASI without later mixture and they having that admixture at such ancient time frame as 1700 BC. The reasons are as follows:

1. The ancestor of what is now Malayalam was the west coast dialect of Old Tamil the crystallisation of which cannot be put earlier than at most 5th or 6th century BC. And these seemingly-relic groups since ancient times but still showing admixture between Indus_Periphery and AASI all speak Malayalam languages and not any divergent Dravidian language.

A somewhat parsimonious view to me, or so it was, I thought, was that they shifted language to Dravidian very recently like after Pre-Tamil people migrated to Kerala sometime in the second half of the first millennium BC. And thus they should have mostly AASI ancestry (going by the assumption that Dravidian languages were more likely to have been connected to Iranian agriculturalists or Indus_Periphery than to AASI of the south) and low Iranian agriculturalist related and any little admixture should be dated to very late at the second half of first millennium BC. In the paper they do have the lower bound for Indus_periphery and AASI admixture at 400 BC which makes sense for this view (though it is very difficult to believe that a pure Indus_Periphery-like population existed till that later point in time) but going by their 1700 BC number, I can see the following implications:

1. That basically the same thing as what I described earlier happened and the ancestors of Ulladan, etc. got their Indus_Periphery at the one admixture event they got their new language also. This means that Malayalam was existent at 1700 BC. Which is completely absurd.

2. All these folks Ulladan, Malayan, etc. in fact became foragers recently and were part of the mainstream west coast society till recently, perhaps with a lower social status. It is problematic why they did not have much of a later ANI admixture though. They say that they do have some minor ANI in the paper, so that may be correct.

3. A possible interesting implication may be that Indus_Periphery-type ancestry was in fact not responsible for the dispersal of Dravidian languages as we know them or that it dispersed some older Dravidian languages which were replaced later by the powerful South Dravidian dialect Pre-Tamil in the Kerala region. If Dravidian languages were AASI-of-south-related, then again, this implies that more powerful dialects possibly replaced older Dravidian languages routinely, layer over layer.

I may have missed some other relevant possibilities, please suggest them to me if you have some in mind.

bmoney
04-02-2018, 02:21 PM
Here is my summary wrt the South Asians.

Basically, we were expecting the Swat valley samples to be rich in Steppe and full of R1a, i.e. the Indo Aryan signal. Well, it turn out that the samples examined in this batch are less Steppe than the modern populations and have no R1a before 300BCE. Not the exclamation mark on the mass Aryan invasion that was supposed to turn the subcontinent upside down. Oh well.

It could very well be the case where they will not be finding mass R1a even if R1a did indeed turn out to be the patrilineal Aryans. If the Aryans were cremating their dead, good luck with aDNA. Sigh.

Hopefully we will know more about the Rakhigarhi samples soon.

To me its also the radical finding that during and before Swat Valley samples, the R1a peoples had nothing to do with SA history (though they did begin to arrive by then due to the 1 sample that was found), as they were mostly in the Kazakh steppe at that time.

Maybe now we can stop thinking of SA history as purely in terms of R1a and focus on the J, L and R2 peoples and their culture and how they contributed to modern SA society

The main R1a expansion probably happened just post Swat samples and gained dominance around the Kuru period

The genetic profile of the Swat samples fits these predictions the most:

According to Kennedy, who argues for a local cultural continuity, the Gandhara grave culture people shared biological affinities with the population of Neolithic Mehrgarh. This suggests a "biological continuum" between the ancient populations of Timargarha and Mehrgarh.

According to Tusa, the Gandhara grave culture and its new contributions are "in line with the cultural traditions of the previous period"

bmoney
04-02-2018, 02:41 PM
This means that Malayalam was existent at 1700 BC. Which is completely absurd.

They did not get Malayalam in that admixture event, which is a Sanskritised form of Western Tamil formed by northern immigrants relatively recently, but rather something close to proto-Tamil perhaps

anthroin
04-02-2018, 03:13 PM
They did not get Malayalam in that admixture event, which is a Sanskritised form of Western Tamil formed by northern immigrants relatively recently, but rather something close to proto-Tamil perhaps

As I said, I did go as far back as Pre-Tamil which gave birth to Tamil, Malayalam, Irula, Toda, Kota, Kurumba (edit: should also include Kodagu), and all the Tamil languages and all the Malayalam languages. Pre-Tamil is dated to 6th century BC just after Pre-Kannada separated from common stage Tamil-Kannada. It is very unlikely a distinctly South Dravidian-I language could have existed at 1700 BC, any form of Tamil is much more unlikely at that ancient period. Also, I was very liberal to have stretched the proto-language definition of the languages of these Kerala tribal groups to include as old a language as Proto-Tamil-Malayalam-Irula-Toda-Kota-Kurumba (that one's erroneous; it should be Proto-Tamil-Malayalam-Irula-Toda-Kota-Kurumba-Kodagu) aka Pre-Tamil; Wikipedia says that languages of Malayan, etc. are distinctly Malayalam, by which we mainly have in mind, Malayalam-like features like Tamil-Malayalam palatalisation, change of nasal-stop clusters of Old Tamil into nasal-nasal clusters, removal of person-number-gender agreement requirements in verbs, etc. Malayalam is not just about sanskritisation and it was definitely not "created" (edit: haha for some reason I wrongly read what you wrote as "created"; sorry; even if "formed" is milder, it is not correct though, as just one or few groups did not form the language but all of the Kerala-side Tamilakam people and a Malayalam became a distinct entity a good while before the lexical sanskritisation as detailed later too) by northern immigrants (by which you perhaps mean Nambutiris?) but it evolved west coast dialectisms a good while before Nambutiris and others sanskritised it lexically. In any case, even if lexically the languages of these tribal groups are not very sanskritised unlike the language of mainstream Kerala, grammatically their language is Malayalam if it has palatalisation, nasal-nasal clusters, etc. Or at most, they can be considered one of Tamil languages if not Malayalam but they are definitely not like Toda-Kota or Gondi-Kui or Kurukh-Malto or even Irula, which are results of older branch-offs from Dravidian speech history.

Edit: I get what you said perhaps; that the language that they got was some form of Dravidian that evolved to become Malayalam- this possibility I included in the 2 of my list. This possibility is very well there but the thing is, for one thing, it indicates that they were not as distant from mainstream as thought to be, as it requires that they have close contact with mainstream Kerala to commonly come to speak Malayalam with all of Kerala and also hypothetical true separations which took place at such ancient time frames like 1700 BC look like how Nilgiri languages evolved today- while the oldest Irula is almost exactly Old Tamil, once it separated, the modern Irula is very different from modern Tamil, similarly, modern Toda is worlds apart from earliest Pre-Toda which was like Pre-Tamil; similarly modern Telugu is worlds apart from the earliest Pre-Telugu which was like Proto-South-Dravidian-II.

jesus
04-02-2018, 03:46 PM
It would have been nice to compare with modern day Eastern Iranians from near the site , as well as Southern Iranians after all Shahr e Shokta is in Iran . S/SE Iran has maintained a strong continuum since the Neolithic. Interestingly the Steppe element to the paper was quite underwhelming, I was expecting very Steppe shifted samples that was not the case. The main take away was the various iterations of how Neolithic Iranian ancestry has mixed , how it has existed in almost unmixed form well into the early Bronze Age ( like the Afghan sample ), how the IVC contributed to the BMAC and existence of the ANE rich Central Asian "ghost" population ie Siberian HG / Kelteminar.

I donít think that they left a major impact on Iran, since even the Baloch in the area arenít that high in ASI. All of the four samples has y-DNA J2a, but their mtDNAs were diverse.

mtDNA list:
I1
J1
U2c1
R7

R7 map. They were basically trading as far as eastern/south eastern India!

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-8-227/MediaObjects/12862_2008_796_MOESM10_ESM.jpeg

anthroin
04-02-2018, 03:59 PM
Please never mind.

pegasus
04-02-2018, 05:12 PM
I donít think that they left a major impact on Iran, since even the Baloch in the area arenít that high in ASI. All of the four samples has y-DNA J2a, but their mtDNAs were diverse.

mtDNA list:
I1
J1
U2c1
R7

R7 map. They were basically trading as far as eastern/south eastern India!

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-8-227/MediaObjects/12862_2008_796_MOESM10_ESM.jpeg

They ( Gonur and the similar Eastern Iranian sample) would still show strong affinities to modern day Brohi , because of the high levels Iran_N, I would say even more so that Afghan sample, whose 86% Iran_N (with Brohi). Yes , the AASI element drops off on the Iranian plateau rapidly, but taken as the Indus periphery which includes Iran_N, there would be an genetic influence in the Eastern regions and more in the South as these were important seaports connecting the IVC with Mesopotamia their main trading partner.
Though the Shahr e Sokta is from Eastern Iran I am assuming its more connected with the Helmand culture.

heksindhi
04-02-2018, 06:25 PM
They ( Gonur and the similar Eastern Iranian sample) would still show strong affinities to modern day Brohi , because of the high levels Iran_N

Slightly OT, but I'm curious where you picked up the term "Brohi" - As far as I know, its pretty much used exclusively by Sindhis of Brahui origin. All the Brahui (from Balochestan), that I've ever come across, identify as Baloch, and refer to their language as Brahui or Brahvi.

pegasus
04-02-2018, 06:34 PM
Slightly OT, but I'm curious where you picked up the term "Brohi" - As far as I know, its pretty much used exclusively by Sindhis of Brahui origin. All the Brahui (from Balochestan), that I've ever come across, identify as Baloch, and refer to their language as Brahui or Brahvi.

Really the 2 I know here use Brohi but yes they identify as Baloch, in any way its trivial the term is meant for similar local people in the Kalat area.

pegasus
04-02-2018, 06:51 PM
You can ignore what I say but according to the Greek sources (based on myths that may or may not have been based on actual events) there were two movements to 'India' (the region around Indus, therefore basically mostly around Pakistan), one older associated with Dionysus [who has Thracian & Phrygian (Brigian) connections] and the spread of agriculture according to the story, the other associated to 'Egyptian Heracles'. I will leave the first aside. Concerning the second the following is interesting:

All from Udegram_IA in Swat valley

7725.E1.L1.........M65a1.........E1b1b1b2......... 831-796 calBCE
S8191.E1.L1.......T2a1b..........E1b1b1b2......... 894-798 calBCE
S8195.E1.L1.......U8b1a2b......E1b1b1b2.........89 5-801 calBCE
S8194.E1.L1.......R30a1b........H1a1a............. .900-800 BCE
I3261...................................DE........ ...........921-831 calBCE
I1992.................H2a2...........E1a.......... .......921-831 calBCE
I6899...................................E1b1b1b2.. .......921-831 calBCE
I6900...................................E1b1b1b2.. .......927-831 calBCE
I1985.................M................E1b1b1b2a.. .....968-833 calBCE
I3262................ H14a...........E1b1b1b2a........974-836 calBCE
I6197.................M65a...........A0-T.................974-836 calBCE
I1799.................T2a1b..........E1b1b1b2..... ....992-830 calBCE

What is the genetic profile of those samples?

Its interesting this area is now dominated by R1a and L now. Samples 8191 and I1799 are interesting , very Near Eastern E1b but with Steppe Mtdna T2a1b ,the U8b1a2b is interesting thats a very Trans Caucasus mtdna.

bmoney
04-03-2018, 01:51 AM
Overall for me personally, this paper is not about Indo-Aryan migrations at all (just the first step towards showing that) but about the proof of the presence of Ancient Ancestral "South" Indian ancestry in the ancient Indus diaspora individuals who died in Eastern Iran and BMAC. This tiny little diaspora group will always be held dear by me and I will be extremely disappointed if it turns out that these three folks did not have anything to do with the Indus tradition.

You'll be happy to know AASI (in admixed form) went all the way to Iran, which is another major finding IMO.

Look at Shar-i-Sokhta_BA3 with >40% AASI-related ancestry

Also as north as Gonur with Gonur2_BA having just under 20% AASI-related ancestry. So the steppe wave diluted some of the AASI ancestry already present in SC Asia

22449

It is almost certain AASI had something to do with the Indus tradition extrapolating from these surrounding samples

bmoney
04-03-2018, 01:54 AM
Its interesting this area is now dominated by R1a and L now. Samples 8191 and I1799 are interesting , very Near Eastern E1b but with Steppe Mtdna T2a1b ,the U8b1a2b is interesting thats a very Trans Caucasus mtdna.

How did E1b end up there? is this legit?

poi
04-03-2018, 01:58 AM
Its interesting this area is now dominated by R1a and L now.

Archaeologically and anthropologically, were the early IronAge Swat samples considered IndoAryan? What could have caused Swat in early Iron Age to have E1b/H/DE/A(!)?

bmoney
04-03-2018, 02:01 AM
They ( Gonur and the similar Eastern Iranian sample) would still show strong affinities to modern day Brohi , because of the high levels Iran_N, I would say even more so that Afghan sample, whose 86% Iran_N (with Brohi). Yes , the AASI element drops off on the Iranian plateau rapidly, but taken as the Indus periphery which includes Iran_N, there would be an genetic influence in the Eastern regions and more in the South as these were important seaports connecting the IVC with Mesopotamia their main trading partner.
Though the Shahr e Sokta is from Eastern Iran I am assuming its more connected with the Helmand culture.

Elam -> Jiroft/Helmand -> IVC with more AASI being picked up along the way

bmoney
04-03-2018, 02:01 AM
Archaeologically and anthropologically, were the early IronAge Swat samples considered IndoAryan? What could have caused Swat in early Iron Age to have E1b/H/DE/A(!)?

I think it is more likely Swat was either a blend or mainly pre-IA with IA culture coming shortly after with the bulk of the R1a

bmoney
04-03-2018, 02:09 AM
Edit: I get what you said perhaps; that the language that they got was some form of Dravidian that evolved to become Malayalam- this possibility I included in the 2 of my list. This possibility is very well there but the thing is, for one thing, it indicates that they were not as distant from mainstream as thought to be, as it requires that they have close contact with mainstream Kerala to commonly come to speak Malayalam with all of Kerala and also hypothetical true separations which took place at such ancient time frames like 1700 BC look like how Nilgiri languages evolved today- while the oldest Irula is almost exactly Old Tamil, once it separated, the modern Irula is very different from modern Tamil, similarly, modern Toda is worlds apart from earliest Pre-Toda which was like Pre-Tamil; similarly modern Telugu is worlds apart from the earliest Pre-Telugu which was like Proto-South-Dravidian-II.

Yep, before differentiation.

poi
04-03-2018, 02:28 AM
I think it is more likely Swat was either a blend or mainly pre-IA with IA culture coming shortly after with the bulk of the R1a

But why pre-IndoAryan though? Did Swat sites, archaeologically and anthropologically, from the Iron Age, show non-IndoAryan features?

bmoney
04-03-2018, 03:05 AM
But why pre-IndoAryan though? Did Swat sites, archaeologically and anthropologically, from the Iron Age, show non-IndoAryan features?

I'm assuming R1a is Indo-Aryan

And the only hypothesis that fits the lack of R1a found at the sites (apart from one 500-300bc late Swat sample) is the cultural continuity of Mehrgarh/Harappan people proposed by Kennedy

Parpola also suggests an IVC-like pop with trade influence from Iran and Central Asia: in the centuries preceding the Gandhara culture, during the Early Harappan period (roughly 3200–2600 BCE), similarities in pottery, seals, figurines, ornaments etc. document intensive caravan trade between the Indian Subcontinent and Central Asia and the Iranian plateau.

deuterium_1
04-03-2018, 06:17 PM
The R1a mystery is not yet clarified and perhaps is really going to be a bit difficult, as you say, because of potential cremation of many R1as and other stuff; in case the R1a truly came with later known steppe groups like Kushans, etc., it has had such dramatic effect over all of India though; and if the major steppe ancestry was also accompanied by these R1a bearing later Iranian-speaking groups, as opposed to the conclusions of the paper that the Swat Valley samples can be truly modeled as true Steppe_MLBA (the putative Indo-Aryans being pre-Scythian and post-Yamna, etc.) plus others, then it again has to be noted how massive of an effect these Iranian-speaking groups had on India culturally, and the elevated steppe ancestry in Brahmins should be explained as because of admixture between the Indian elite and the new Iranian elite.

Out of the later known Steppe groups, the Scythians would have probably had the greatest impact by far particularly in western and northwest India. Their cultural influence can be seen farther afield, from my visit to the National Archaeological Museum in Delhi 2 years ago:

22461

This is a Scythian figure from a Mandapa pillar depicting Ikshvaku which was found in Nagarjunakonda, Andhra Pradesh, it was carved in 3rd Century AD.


I'm assuming R1a is Indo-Aryan

And the only hypothesis that fits the lack of R1a found at the sites (apart from one 500-300bc late Swat sample) is the cultural continuity of Mehrgarh/Harappan people proposed by Kennedy

Parpola also suggests an IVC-like pop with trade influence from Iran and Central Asia: in the centuries preceding the Gandhara culture, during the Early Harappan period (roughly 3200–2600 BCE), similarities in pottery, seals, figurines, ornaments etc. document intensive caravan trade between the Indian Subcontinent and Central Asia and the Iranian plateau.

A depiction of an Indus Valley civilisation inhabitant:

22463

The mysterious Indus Valley script can be seen, she is jovial and perhaps what is written may be describing why?.

The Indus Valley Civilisation is known to have had influence as far west as Baluchistan and as far north as Badakhshan where they mined Lapis Lazuli.

pnb123
04-28-2018, 06:26 PM
I'm pretty sure the Jatt Sikh samples are mislabeled in some manner. They are scoring exceedingly low Indus Disapora (Majority Iran Farmer + AASI + ANE/West Siberian) in comparison to Punjabi Khatri, Gujarati A, Gujarati Lohana, etc. and more AASI than Bihari Brahmins, Yadavs from UP and Rajasthan, Haryana Baniya, etc. If you compare Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatri, you wouldn't even think they score remotely similar on admixture calculators when in fact on Harappa, I usually get Punjabi Khatri in my top 3. So do my parents.

Here is the link to the excel admixture breakdowns from the paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/03/31/292581.DC1/292581-2.xlsx

Here are some scores from my other post:



Punjabi_Khatri - 61% Indus Diaspora + 26.1% Steppe MLBA + 12.9% Onge AASI related

Kashmiri_Pandit - 62.7% Indus Diaspora + 21.9% Steppe MLBA 15.4% Onge AASI related

Muslim_Kashmiri - 60.5% Indus Diaspora + 19.6% Steppe MLBA + 19.9% Onge AASI related

Dogra_Jammu - 60.8% Indus Diaspora + 22.2% Steppe MLBA + 17% Onge AASI related

Jatt_Sikh - 55% Indus Diaspora + 24.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.8% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_A - 63.6% Indus Diaspora + 24.5% Steppe MLBA + 11.9% Onge AASI related

Gujarati_Lohana - 64% Indus Diaspora + 25.1% Steppe MLBA + 10.9% Onge AASI related

Yadav_Rajasthan - 61.5% Indus Diaspora + 22.4% Steppe MLBA + 16.1% Onge AASI related

Yadav_UP - 61.1% Indus Diaspora + 21.3% Steppe MLBA + 17.6% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Haryana - 58.6% Indus Diaspora + 23.5% Steppe MLBA + 17.9% Onge AASI related

Rajput_Haryana - 58.8% Indus Disapsora + 20.9% Steppe MLBA + 20.3% Onge AASI related

Bhumihar_Bihar - 54.5% Indus Diaspora + 25.4% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Nepal - 53.6% Indus Diaspora + 23.4% Steppe MLBA + 23.0% Onge ASSI related

Brahmin_UP - 52.2% Indus Diaspora + 24.4% Steppe MLBA + 23.4% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Tiwari - 53% Indus Diaspora + 25.0% Steppe MLBA + 22.0% Onge AASI related

note: Tiwari Brahmins are from Chattisgarh

Gujarati B - 57.7% Indus Diaspora + 21% Steppe MLBA + 21.3% Onge AASI related

Gujarati C - 58.7% Indus Diaspora + 16.2% Steppe MLBA + 25.1% Onge AASI related

Haryana Baniya - 61.7% Indus Diaspora + 18.2% Steppe MLBA + 20.1% Onge AASI related

Brahmin_Karnataka - 57.5% Indus Diaspora + 18.6% Steppe MLBA + 23.9% Onge AASI related

note: Indus Diaspora is the Iran Farmer like component. It is part majority Iran Farmer like but part ASI and part West Siberian like as pegasus explained in the other thread.

Edit: I am going to also inquire into getting the 41 Jatt Sikh individual's results from Dr. Reich. It's possible there are outliers, mixed individuals or non Jatt Sikhs in the average with them being the largest ethnoreligious group in Indian Punjab. Many non Jatt Sikhs take on Jatt Sikh clan names and in rare cases might even identify as such.

I'm also unsure of how they are accounting for East Asian admixture. Reich and co decided not to include some East Asian admixed Eastern Indo-Aryan populations such as Bengalis but what happens for the minor but notable East Asian in Nepali Brahmins for example? Does it just go into AASI? I think it's also possible the Nepali Brahmins here a bit different than the Nepali Brahmin members on the forum like the academic samples lukasz had in his Eurogenes K36 data.

@poi/pnb123, can either if you confirm if they're the same eastern shifted samples (relative to you guys) that lukasz has in his set?

Until those kits are uploaded to Gedmatch, we have no way to compare Nepali samples with us. I definitely do think some of that East Asian must have gone into AASI, as they don't have dedicated E Asian component. Also we don't know what happens to other East Eurasian components like Siberian, Beringian, etc that most Northern South Asian score in minor amounts. In Nepal we have Pahari Brahmins (Khas - Purviya and Kumai), Newari Brahmins, Maithili Brahmins, etc. I haven't really seen admixture from any other groups other than Khas Pahari Brahmins. They do specify in paper that brahmin are from Kathmandu, but since it's a capital region the sample could've come from anyone, as they didn't specify ethnic group.

poi
04-29-2018, 01:17 AM
Until those kits are uploaded to Gedmatch, we have no way to compare Nepali samples with us. I definitely do think some of that East Asian must have gone into AASI, as they don't have dedicated E Asian component. Also we don't know what happens to other East Eurasian components like Siberian, Beringian, etc that most Northern South Asian score in minor amounts. In Nepal we have Pahari Brahmins (Khas - Purviya and Kumai), Newari Brahmins, Maithili Brahmins, etc. I haven't really seen admixture from any other groups other than Khas Pahari Brahmins. They do specify in paper that brahmin are from Kathmandu, but since it's a capital region the sample could've come from anyone, as they didn't specify ethnic group.

Khas Brahmins are the LARGEST ethnic-caste group in Kathmandu district(only includes Kathmandu proper, no Newari-heavy Bhaktapur and Lalitpur). The entire valley has Newars as the largest group, but not so in core Kathmandu.

Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahun):

Hill-Brahmins are largest group in 11 districts in Nepal; Jhapa, Morang, Kathmandu, Chitwan, Nawalparasi, Rupandehi, Kaski, Syangja, Parbat, Gulmi and Arghakhanchi. Among these, Bahuns in Parbat (35.7%), Arghakhanchi (32.8%) and Syangja (30.9%) consist more than 30% of district population while Kathmandu consists largest Bahun population with 410,126 (23.5%).[1]

pnb123
04-29-2018, 03:54 AM
Khas Brahmins are the LARGEST ethnic-caste group in Kathmandu district(only includes Kathmandu proper, no Newari-heavy Bhaktapur and Lalitpur). The entire valley has Newars as the largest group, but not so in core Kathmandu.

Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahun):

Most politicians are Bahuns, so it makes sense for them to have highest population in capital region. They probably did sample Khas Brahmins then. They do not specify surname (as they did with Tiwari samples). Is it possible for you to get datasets somehow & upload them to gedmatch ? We can then compare how closely they cluster with rest Bahuns.

poi
04-29-2018, 04:07 AM
Most politicians are Bahuns, so it makes sense for them to have highest population in capital region. They probably did sample Khas Brahmins then. They do not specify surname (as they did with Tiwari samples). Is it possible for you to get datasets somehow & upload them to gedmatch ? We can then compare how closely they cluster with rest Bahuns.

Half a million Khas Bahuns in just Kathmandu... that can't be politicians :) There has been a mass exodus of Brahmins from the hills into the valley. I think far-western Nepal probably has not much Brahmin population left as they pretty much all migrated east, particularly in the cities that otherwise did not have much Bahuns.

pnb123
04-29-2018, 04:21 AM
Half a million Khas Bahuns in just Kathmandu... that can't be politicians :) There has been a mass exodus of Brahmins from the hills into the valley. I think far-western Nepal probably has not much Brahmin population left as they pretty much all migrated east, particularly in the cities that otherwise did not have much Bahuns.

Maybe relatives of politicians, lol. But yes, lots of bahuns even today are migrating to Kathmandu region. Maybe it's because they could afford to live by not have to do any farming at all and it makes sense as they've one of the highest literacy rates in Nepal. They also dominate in public job sector. I think brahmin from Far Western hills migrated southwards or eastwards in search of fertile land. There hasn't been much development work over at Far Western Nepal. I've few relatives in Far Western (Dhangadhi) region. But they migrated from the East (<50 years ago).

sudkol
07-27-2018, 10:03 AM
Out of the later known Steppe groups, the Scythians would have probably had the greatest impact by far particularly in western and northwest India. Their cultural influence can be seen farther afield, from my visit to the National Archaeological Museum in Delhi 2 years ago:

22461

This is a Scythian figure from a Mandapa pillar depicting Ikshvaku which was found in Nagarjunakonda, Andhra Pradesh, it was carved in 3rd Century AD.



A depiction of an Indus Valley civilisation inhabitant:

22463

The mysterious Indus Valley script can be seen, she is jovial and perhaps what is written may be describing why?.

The Indus Valley Civilisation is known to have had influence as far west as Baluchistan and as far north as Badakhshan where they mined Lapis Lazuli.

About the Scythian figure in Andhra, Western Satraps were ruling in Saurashtra and parts of Maharashtra and were contemporaries of Satavahanas who ruled over Maharashtra and Andhra. Western Satrapy is accepted to be an offshoot of the 'Scythians' referred to as Kushanas in North India. This was based on analysis of names of emperors (non-Vedic names like Bhumaka, Nahapana similar to Kujula, Kanishka of the Kushanas) and numismatics (coins, seals). There were intermarriages between Western Satraps and Satavahanas. Satavahanas were initially patrons of Brahminism but gradually shifted to Buddhism due to influence of Western Satrapy. The kingdom was remarkably bicultural for those times with Brahmins marrying buddhists and vice versa. That's the period in which the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna born in those times started writing Buddhist philosophy in Sanskrit and made it prestigious in the eyes of the Brahmin elite. Buddhism was initially spread as a reform movement to counter sacrificial Vedic Brahmanism and avoided Sanskrit deliberately to reach the masses. That's why most Buddhist literature in the north is in Pali and Prakrit until Nagarjuna. Apologize if I am stating things that are well-known to other forum members.

midichlorian
07-29-2018, 06:18 AM
No one knows m8's. I have J2 which is indicative of Indo-Aryan even. Just depends on which waves of migrations your early folk came in.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-29-2018, 11:31 AM
No one knows m8's. I have J2 which is indicative of Indo-Aryan even. Just depends on which waves of migrations your early folk came in.

J2 is Iran N, not indo aryan. Indo aryan would be something like R1a1a.

bmoney
07-29-2018, 01:25 PM
J2 is Iran N, not indo aryan. Indo aryan would be something like R1a1a.

J2 could have come with Indo-Aryans as well though.

Those Swat Valley samples are Indo-Aryan its safe to say and the Indo-Aryans would have interacted with J2 BMAC inhabitants on their way in

midichlorian
07-29-2018, 06:44 PM
J2 is Iran N, not indo aryan. Indo aryan would be something like R1a1a.

Depends on the clade m8. How late it is and which one it is within the J2 family.

SpinosaurusN3H1
12-23-2018, 08:17 PM
I'm pretty sure the Jatt Sikh samples are mislabeled in some manner. They are scoring exceedingly low Indus Disapora (Majority Iran Farmer + AASI + ANE/West Siberian) in comparison to Punjabi Khatri, Gujarati A, Gujarati Lohana, etc. and more AASI than Bihari Brahmins, Yadavs from UP and Rajasthan, Haryana Baniya, etc. If you compare Jatt Sikhs and Punjabi Khatri, you wouldn't even think they score remotely similar on admixture calculators when in fact on Harappa, I usually get Punjabi Khatri in my top 3. So do my parents.

Most likely because of the higher vs lower no. of samples. 41 Jatt Sikhs compared to single digit no. of samples for the other groups will definitely skew the results. Secondly, since Jats are agrarian, the original population probably had higher AASI with Indus compared to higher caste groups after the initial formation of caste system. Later migration of Steppe people in the form of Indo-Scythians, etc greatly increased their Steppe ancestry compared to Indus diaspora and AASI. Might not be for all but might be for this specific group of samples from a specific region(Bathinda).


I'm also unsure of how they are accounting for East Asian admixture. Reich and co decided not to include some East Asian admixed Eastern Indo-Aryan populations such as Bengalis but what happens for the minor but notable East Asian in Nepali Brahmins for example? Does it just go into AASI? I think it's also possible the Nepali Brahmins here a bit different than the Nepali Brahmin members on the forum like the academic samples lukasz had in his Eurogenes K36 data.

As Kurd had explained, East Eurasian element is typical of South Asians, the research should have used some east asian specific group like Dai for that purpose.
BEB like PJL(as people here have said) shouldn't represent all Bengalis of that region. 'Bengali' in context of Bangladesh means both ethnicity and nation. Moreover, Bangladeshis have recent E Eurasian admixture which might be due to social upliftment and assimilation of minority groups as well as because part of Burma was under the Bengal Sultanate.

West Bengal Brahmins/Bengali Brahmins should have been tested in Narasimhan et al. since they show similar levels of NE/SE Asian like the Nepali Brahmins, Kashmiris, Pashtuns groups which were part of the research. Moreover the group 'Bangladeshi SCs' also show similarly low NE/SE Asian. I believe the same for isolated castes like Mahishyas and Bauris (one of the highest frequency of Y-DNA T (55%)).


Until those kits are uploaded to Gedmatch, we have no way to compare Nepali samples with us. I definitely do think some of that East Asian must have gone into AASI, as they don't have dedicated E Asian component. Also we don't know what happens to other East Eurasian components like Siberian, Beringian, etc that most Northern South Asian score in minor amounts. In Nepal we have Pahari Brahmins (Khas - Purviya and Kumai), Newari Brahmins, Maithili Brahmins, etc. I haven't really seen admixture from any other groups other than Khas Pahari Brahmins. They do specify in paper that brahmin are from Kathmandu, but since it's a capital region the sample could've come from anyone, as they didn't specify ethnic group.

Some NE Asian type element might get into Indus Periphery since West-Siberian HG = 20% Modern East Asians. More SE Asian types proabably went into AASI. I believe Steppe also has some East Asian and later Indo-Scythians definitely.

SpinosaurusN3H1
12-23-2018, 08:20 PM
Depends on the clade m8. How late it is and which one it is within the J2 family.

Yamnaya might have possessed J since it is 50% Near Eastern

Sapporo
12-24-2018, 12:04 AM
Most likely because of the higher vs lower no. of samples. 41 Jatt Sikhs compared to single digit no. of samples for the other groups will definitely skew the results. Secondly, since Jats are agrarian, the original population probably had higher AASI with Indus compared to higher caste groups after the initial formation of caste system. Later migration of Steppe people in the form of Indo-Scythians, etc greatly increased their Steppe ancestry compared to Indus diaspora and AASI. Might not be for all but might be for this specific group of samples from a specific region(Bathinda).

You’re wrong on this one and on a separate note, I have no idea why you are digging up such an old post from 9 months ago. At this point, we’ve already found out long ago they even mislabeled highly AASI shifted PJL samples from Lahore as Punjabi UK. The individual who did the sampling was a Bengali Kayastha per VM Narasimhan himself so it is highly improbable he has any familiarity with Punjab caste and social dynamics (such as non Jatt chamar or chura using Jatt names or mixed individuals identifying as Jatt). Furthermore, the Jatt Sikh samples are from an urban Bathinda hospital (most Jatt Sikhs live in rural pinds whereas the city of Bathinda is 60% Hindu) without verification that all 4 of the samples grandparents are Jatt Sikh. Since then, I’ve also collected 100 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (only 6-7 relatives with the rest being unrelated individuals of various clans and diverse origins within Indian Punjab) and we have 5+ Punjabi Jatt (all Jatt Sikh except 2) on nMonte. Our AASI levels are similar to the Punjabi Khatri forum member and closer to Northern Pakistani Pashtun and Kohistani groups than to South Indian Brahmins or Eastern UP Brahmins as the paper tried to present. Bathinda Jatts aren’t going to be special. The sampling is just inaccurate and full of mislabeling or flaws.

If we had access to the Bathinda samples, we could run their data and identify outliers but the samples are private and thus can’t be publicly shared.

26284729292
12-24-2018, 12:57 AM
You’re wrong on this one and on a separate note, I have no idea why you are digging up such an old post. At this point, we’ve already found out long ago they even mislabeled highly AASI shifted PJL samples from Lahore as Punjabi UK. The individual who did the sampling was a Bengali Kayastha with no familiarity with Punjab caste and social dynamics (such as non Jatt chamar or chura using Jatt names or mixed individuals identifying as Jatt). Furthermore, the Jatt Sikh samples are from an urban Bathinda hospital (most Jatt Sikhs live in rural pinds whereas the city of Bathinda is 60% Hindu) without verification that all 4 of the samples grandparents are Jatt Sikh. Since then, I’ve also collected 100 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (only 6-7 relatives with the rest being unrelated individuals of various clans and diverse origins within Indian Punjab) and we have 5+ Punjabi Jatt (all Jatt Sikh except 2) on nMonte. Our AASI levels are similar to the Punjabi Khatri forum member and closer to Northern Pakistani Pashtun and Kohistani groups than to South Indian Brahmins or Eastern UP Brahmins as the paper tried to present. Bathinda Jatts aren’t going to be special. The sampling is just highly inaccurate and full of flaws.

If we had access to the Bathinda samples, we could run their data and identify outliers but the samples are private and thus can’t be publicly shared.

Was this really ever in debate? Sometimes I wonder if these people buy what they're selling.

pnb123
12-24-2018, 12:58 AM
Some NE Asian type element might get into Indus Periphery since West-Siberian HG = 20% Modern East Asians. More SE Asian types proabably went into AASI. I believe Steppe also has some East Asian and later Indo-Scythians definitely.

Nope. If they sampled pop like us, then it definitely did get into AASI. This has been proven multiple times with various nMonte models. They don't have dedicated component for capturing excess E Asian (if they had, then AASI for us would definitely go down). WSHG is different from NE Asian.



Output Name Harappa: World: Snps Harappa: World: S-Indian Harappa: World: Baloch Harappa: World: Caucasian Harappa: World: NE-Euro Harappa: World: SE-Asian Harappa: World: Siberian Harappa: World: NE-Asian Harappa: World: Papuan Harappa: World: American Harappa: World: Beringian Harappa: World: Mediterranean Harappa: World: SW-Asian Harappa: World: San Harappa: World: E-African Harappa: World: Pygmy Harappa: World: W-African
1 Average - Ethnicity: WestSiberiaN - Group: West_Siberia_N - Region: Siberia - Nationality: Ancient - Kits: 3 80550 0.21 20.42 0.00 41.66 0.00 8.89 0.00 0.25 17.42 10.49 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.13 0.51

SpinosaurusN3H1
01-10-2019, 05:35 PM
You’re wrong on this one and on a separate note, I have no idea why you are digging up such an old post from 9 months ago. At this point, we’ve already found out long ago they even mislabeled highly AASI shifted PJL samples from Lahore as Punjabi UK. The individual who did the sampling was a Bengali Kayastha per VM Narasimhan himself so it is highly improbable he has any familiarity with Punjab caste and social dynamics (such as non Jatt chamar or chura using Jatt names or mixed individuals identifying as Jatt). Furthermore, the Jatt Sikh samples are from an urban Bathinda hospital (most Jatt Sikhs live in rural pinds whereas the city of Bathinda is 60% Hindu) without verification that all 4 of the samples grandparents are Jatt Sikh.
If we had access to the Bathinda samples, we could run their data and identify outliers but the samples are private and thus can’t be publicly shared.

Sorry for necroposting but could you provide a link where Narasimhan et al. accepted their mistakes? I still think the number of samples for different groups in the study was quite lopsided so equal no of samples would've sorted this out. Having stayed in Punjab for a long time, I know some lower caste surnames are similar to Jatts e.g. Bains, Thind and are mostly Hindus. Then again Hindu Jats from some regions are considered Backward Castes. Mislabelling in this case would be quite a blunder but I don't agree with the 'mixed Jatt Sikh' sampling part since other population groups like Khatris, Brahmins, etc could be just as mixed.


Since then, I’ve also collected 100 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (only 6-7 relatives with the rest being unrelated individuals of various clans and diverse origins within Indian Punjab) and we have 5+ Punjabi Jatt (all Jatt Sikh except 2) on nMonte. Our AASI levels are similar to the Punjabi Khatri forum member and closer to Northern Pakistani Pashtun and Kohistani groups than to South Indian Brahmins or Eastern UP Brahmins as the paper tried to present. Bathinda Jatts aren’t going to be special. The sampling is just inaccurate and full of mislabeling or flaws.

Are you referring to "South Asian Ancestry Spreadsheet"? It has quite a few mixed Jatt Sikh individuals. Not to mention, Jatt Sikhs are not that uniform genetically like the way you are presenting. In Gedrosia K12 their S. INDIAN range from 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE from 7.98 to 18.31.

As per the attachment below, your own AASI percentage is similar to the Narasimhan's "Jatt Sikh" sample which you find atypical.
28258

*Jatt Sikhs in Narasimhan et al. : AASI - 20.8%, Indus Diaspora - 55 % and Steppe MLBA - 24.2%.
*Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Sapporo) : AASI - 20.68%, Iran_N - 50.52%, Steppe MLBA East - 28.8%

I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region before the admixture with Indo-Scythians

SpinosaurusN3H1
01-10-2019, 05:42 PM
Nope. If they sampled pop like us, then it definitely did get into AASI. This has been proven multiple times with various nMonte models. They don't have dedicated component for capturing excess E Asian (if they had, then AASI for us would definitely go down). WSHG is different from NE Asian.

But as per Narasimhan et al 2018 :


Three individuals from the West Siberian forest zone with direct dates ranging from 6200 BCE to 4000 BCE play an important role in this study as they are representatives of a never-before reported mixture of ancestry that we call West_Siberian_HG: ~30% derived from EHG, ~50% from Ancestral North Eurasians (defined as being related deeply to 22000-15000 BCE Siberians and ~20% related to present-day East Asians.

The East Asians are modern day Han Chinese and Indus Periphery is AASI+Iranian Farmer+West Siberian HG as per "Fig. 2 Modeling results A and B"

Sapporo
01-10-2019, 07:32 PM
Sorry for necroposting but could you provide a link where Narasimhan et al. accepted their mistakes? I still think the number of samples for different groups in the study was quite lopsided so equal no of samples would've sorted this out. Having stayed in Punjab for a long time, I know some lower caste surnames are similar to Jatts e.g. Bains, Thind and are mostly Hindus. Then again Hindu Jats from some regions are considered Backward Castes. Mislabelling in this case would be quite a blunder but I don't agree with the 'mixed Jatt Sikh' sampling part since other population groups like Khatris, Brahmins, etc could be just as mixed.

They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu, Bal, Sandhu, etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14980-Punjabi-Ravidassi-(Chamar)-Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=1369294505

Although, it wasn't this paper, the 2018 Damgaard paper below mislabeled Khatris. Go to the IN_Khatri GEDMatch Genesis tab in the link above. Two of the Khatris score almost identical to the Gujarati Brahmin average. The Gujarati Brahmin results are shown on the same sheet two tabs to the right.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711/tab-figures-data




Are you referring to "South Asian Ancestry Spreadsheet"? It has quite a few mixed Jatt Sikh individuals. Not to mention, Jatt Sikhs are not that uniform genetically like the way you are presenting. In Gedrosia K12 their S. INDIAN range from 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE from 7.98 to 18.31.

As per the attachment below, your own AASI percentage is similar to the Narasimhan's "Jatt Sikh" sample which you find atypical.
28258

*Jatt Sikhs in Narasimhan et al. : AASI - 20.8%, Indus Diaspora - 55 % and Steppe MLBA - 24.2%.
*Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Sapporo) : AASI - 20.68%, Iran_N - 50.52%, Steppe MLBA East - 28.8%

I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region before the admixture with Indo-Scythians


You seem to be quoting McNinja's sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link (it may be separate one created by Dr_McNinja). I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.


I managed to dig up Dr_McNija's fathers results for Gedrosia K12:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5174-Post-your-Gedmatch-calculator-Gedrosia-12-results&p=103313&viewfull=1#post103313

His family is mixed and he has openly stated his results are atypical for his group (Punjabi Jatt Muslim) and they're even more atypical for Jatt Sikhs. What caused you to believe McNinja or his family are Jatt Sikhs exactly?


Now, much more data:

On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=898798223

There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

Regarding, my own result:

If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component (around 30% according to pegasus). It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI. Assuming the 30% number is accurate, the Narasimhan Jatt Sikh average is actually 16.5% more AASI than myself. I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.

aaronbee2010
01-10-2019, 08:01 PM
*Jatt Sikhs in Narasimhan et al. : AASI - 20.8%, Indus Diaspora - 55 % and Steppe MLBA - 24.2%.
*Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Sapporo) : AASI - 20.68%, Iran_N - 50.52%, Steppe MLBA East - 28.8%

Quick question: Why are you equivocating Iran_N with Indus Diaspora (a component that itself contains much higher AASI levels than Iran_N)?

If you add the AASI from Indus Diaspora to the 20.8% AASI from the Narasimhan study, their results will no longer be similar.

laltota
01-10-2019, 09:06 PM
They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu,etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14980-Punjabi-Ravidassi-(Chamar)-Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

Ö.
...

Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link. I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.

On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=898798223

There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

Regarding, my own result:

If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI.

I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.


Two other last names often used by Chamar brethren are Mattu (Jatt) and Banga (Saini).

MonkeyDLuffy
01-10-2019, 09:55 PM
Two other last names often used by Chamar brethren are Mattu (Jatt) and Banga (Saini).

I know chamars from our pind use sohal (used by Tarkhans and jatts) and Kalyan (my surname), in my mom's pind they use (Nijjer and Sembhi).

bol_nat
01-11-2019, 02:42 AM
They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu, Bal, Sandhu, etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14980-Punjabi-Ravidassi-(Chamar)-Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=1369294505

Although, it wasn't this paper, the 2018 Damgaard paper below mislabeled Khatris. Go to the IN_Khatri GEDMatch Genesis tab in the link above. Two of the Khatris score almost identical to the Gujarati Brahmin average. The Gujarati Brahmin results are shown on the same sheet two tabs to the right.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711/tab-figures-data





You seem to be quoting McNinja's sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link (it may be separate one created by Dr_McNinja). I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.


I managed to dig up Dr_McNija's fathers results for Gedrosia K12:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5174-Post-your-Gedmatch-calculator-Gedrosia-12-results&p=103313&viewfull=1#post103313

His family is mixed and he has openly stated his results are atypical for his group (Punjabi Jatt Muslim) and they're even more atypical for Jatt Sikhs. What caused you to believe McNinja or his family are Jatt Sikhs exactly?


Now, much more data:

On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=898798223

There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

Regarding, my own result:

If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI. I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.

Results of Sidhu

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 53.6
2 Baloch 31.25
3 NE-Euro 3.19
4 Caucasian 2.75
5 SE-Asian 2.65
6 Beringian 1.8
7 Mediterranean 1.65
8 Papuan 1.12
9 Siberian 1.07
10 SW-Asian 0.92

We will likely find more kits if PJL D samples were uploaded on old gedmatch.

pegasus
01-11-2019, 03:51 AM
They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.

You really don't have the slightest clue about Punjab. Bains and Thind? Those are just 2 of the tons of Jatt Sikh names that Chamars or dalits use. Others are Gill, Maan, Sahota, Basra, Dhanda, Johal, Virk, Heer, Sidhu, Bal, Sandhu, etc. Also, are you not aware of the large percentage of chamars/dalits in Punjab who are Sikh? Punjab is around 30-35% dalit (Chamar, Mazhabi, etc.). Not all of them are Hindu. The forum member bol_nat even found a "Sahota" kit on GEDMatch who scored 56% South Indian (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14980-Punjabi-Ravidassi-(Chamar)-Results/page3) on Harappa while I have two Jatt Sikh Sahota kits who score 25%+ less South Indian on Harappa.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=1369294505

Although, it wasn't this paper, the 2018 Damgaard paper below mislabeled Khatris. Go to the IN_Khatri GEDMatch Genesis tab in the link above. Two of the Khatris score almost identical to the Gujarati Brahmin average. The Gujarati Brahmin results are shown on the same sheet two tabs to the right.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711/tab-figures-data





You seem to be quoting McNinja's sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

Are you referring to Gedrosia K11? I don't see a K12 on there so please provide the link (it may be separate one created by Dr_McNinja). I'm very familiar with Gedrosia K12 though and the Jatt Sikh range on there is not 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE does not range from 7.98 to 18.31. You're either counting McNinja's family who is Jatt Muslim and mixed or including other mixed individuals.


I managed to dig up Dr_McNija's fathers results for Gedrosia K12:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5174-Post-your-Gedmatch-calculator-Gedrosia-12-results&p=103313&viewfull=1#post103313

His family is mixed and he has openly stated his results are atypical for his group (Punjabi Jatt Muslim) and they're even more atypical for Jatt Sikhs. What caused you to believe McNinja or his family are Jatt Sikhs exactly?


Now, much more data:

On my spreadsheet, there are 105 Jatt Sikh GEDMatch kits (tab 6):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit#gid=898798223

There is some internal variation between individuals but the scores are remarkably consistent for a sub-ethnic group of Punjabis that numbers in the millions.

Regarding, my own result:

If you want to make a fool out of yourself, go right ahead. You are comparing the AASI estimates in the Narasimhan paper that don't include the substantial AASI in the Indus Periphery component. It is a mixed component that is Iran N + WSHG + AASI. Are you even aware of which ancients the paper used to proxy Indus Periphery? They included SIS BA3 + a few others. SIS BA3 itself is 42-44% AASI. I'm not sure if its intellectual dishonesty on your part or you're just being disingenuous but you should think before you write.

NO they will NEVER ever do that and will never admit error. IMO its a combination of ego and what I call Ivy League snobbery also in fairness to them the stakes are high , for an anthro blogger to be pointing out glaring errors is like social suicide almost for them to admit. Its sounds petty but lol but human behavior even at the upper echelons is the same.
The Harvard case is baffling because they actually have had great archaeologists and linguists there , why not consult with them.
It was not a simple mix of Indo Iranians playing hopscotch and landing and mixing with one group. They definitely mixed up with BMAC related populations in varying portions and while its not apparent now , most SC Asian/ Afghan populations are heavily derived from them so they were definitely living in swathes of areas south of the Oxus. Also groups diffused in waves.

By Narasimhan's method you should be 37% AASI lol. IVCp is 30% AASI. Population genomics in this part of the world is not so cookie cutter simple. I have a huge issue with his sampling and model which is not comprehensive and inclusive. He left out Sindhis and Baloch/Makrani who inhabit the region where the main center of the IVC was. Granted Baloch/Makrani have extra Plateau Iranian ancestry , they still are quite important as they still harbor the most levels of Iran_N related ancestry.

DMXX
01-11-2019, 05:09 AM
NO they will NEVER ever do that and will never admit error. IMO its a combination of ego and what I call Ivy League snobbery also in fairness to them the stakes are high , for a anthro blogger to be point out glaring errors is like social suicide almost for them to admit. Its sounds petty but lol but human behavior even at the upper echelons is the same.
The Harvard case is baffling because they actually have had great archaeologists and linguists there , why not consult with them.
It was not a simple mix of Indo Iranians playing hopscotch and landing and mixing with one group. They definitely mixed up with BMAC related populations in varying portions and while its not apparent now , most SC Asian/ Afghan populations are heavily derived from them so they were definitely living in swathes of areas south of the Oxus. Also groups diffused in waves.

By Narasimhan's method you should be 37% AASI lol. IVCp is 30% AASI. Population genomics in this part of the world is not so cookie cutter simple. I have a huge issue with his sampling and model which is not comprehensive and inclusive. He left out Sindhis and Baloch/Makrani who inhabit the region where the main center of the IVC was. Granted Baloch/Makrani have extra Plateau Iranian ancestry , they still are quite important as they still harbor the most levels of Iran_N related ancestry.

At least the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy is a conventionally acceptable buffer and somewhat expected - I'm more taken aback by some of the misplaced hubris and ego from rank amateurs (which all of us are, let's be honest) we've seen in this community over the past couple years.

Yes, I too was surprised by the absence of "Gedrosian" samples in their analyses - They could've easily accounted for additional Iranian plateau ancestry in qpAdm by, you know... Including an additional Iranian plateau ancient to their Sintashta + Ip + AASI combo.

laltota
01-11-2019, 12:47 PM
Sorry for necroposting but could you provide a link where Narasimhan et al. accepted their mistakes? I still think the number of samples for different groups in the study was quite lopsided so equal no of samples would've sorted this out. Having stayed in Punjab for a long time, I know some lower caste surnames are similar to Jatts e.g. Bains, Thind and are mostly Hindus. Then again Hindu Jats from some regions are considered Backward Castes. Mislabelling in this case would be quite a blunder but I don't agree with the 'mixed Jatt Sikh' sampling part since other population groups like Khatris, Brahmins, etc could be just as mixed.



Are you referring to "South Asian Ancestry Spreadsheet"? It has quite a few mixed Jatt Sikh individuals. Not to mention, Jatt Sikhs are not that uniform genetically like the way you are presenting. In Gedrosia K12 their S. INDIAN range from 29.15 to 46.38 and their SINTASTA STEPPE from 7.98 to 18.31.

As per the attachment below, your own AASI percentage is similar to the Narasimhan's "Jatt Sikh" sample which you find atypical.
28258

*Jatt Sikhs in Narasimhan et al. : AASI - 20.8%, Indus Diaspora - 55 % and Steppe MLBA - 24.2%.
*Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Sapporo) : AASI - 20.68%, Iran_N - 50.52%, Steppe MLBA East - 28.8%

I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region before the admixture with Indo-Scythians

"I believe that the original Agrarian population that became Jats had higher AASI and lower Steppe than the higher castes of the region " - In that case what would have been the yDna and mtDna of the "original" population that had higher AASI?

26284729292
01-12-2019, 05:14 AM
Sapporo and perhaps MDL and others can chime in here as well. If some chamars use the same surname as Jatts, how can you tell the difference aside from looks? Is there any other aspect of their name/lifestyle that may give it away?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-12-2019, 05:34 AM
Sapporo and perhaps MDL and others can chime in here as well. If some chamars use the same surname as Jatts, how can you tell the difference aside from looks? Is there any other aspect of their name/lifestyle that may give it away?

Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference especially when you're in urban setting, and the person from dalit background is properly educated and has a lifestyle that allows them to blend in easily anywhere.

Second while they can sometimes overlap, the percentage is very small that can, and it's usually chamars that can look like biradari rather than Churahs, which the results show as well of both communities. It's easier to tell the difference when you're in pind than the city. From their overall style if they're not from a privileged family. As bad as it sounds, they won't be much open about their background, while a biradari person will be open about talking about their background. If I see someone who's surname is Sidhu, is working as a cleaner in an office and looks like aziz ansari, it won't be hard to guess.

For some reason it was weird typing all this, like you feel how messed up the society is.

26284729292
01-12-2019, 05:47 AM
Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference especially when you're in urban setting, and the person from dalit background is properly educated and has a lifestyle that allows them to blend in easily anywhere.

Second while they can sometimes overlap, the percentage is very small that can, and it's usually chamars that can look like biradari rather than Churahs, which the results show as well of both communities. It's easier to tell the difference when you're in pind than the city. From their overall style if they're not from a privileged family. As bad as it sounds, they won't be much open about their background, while a biradari person will be open about talking about their background. If I see someone who's surname is Sidhu, is working as a cleaner in an office and looks like aziz ansari, it won't be hard to guess.

For some reason it was weird typing all this, like you feel how messed up the society is.

Believe me, you put this more eloquently than some of my punjabi friends. Sorry if I put you in a weird spot. Your heart is in the right place. You're not talking down to anyone.

Sapporo
01-12-2019, 05:56 AM
Believe me, you put this more eloquently than some of my punjabi friends. Sorry if I put you in a weird spot. Your heart is in the right place. You're not talking down to anyone.

Believe me, you wouldn't imagine some of the things I've heard family members (not immediate) say regarding Chamars and Churas.

Jatt1
01-13-2019, 10:03 AM
Two other last names often used by Chamar brethren are Mattu (Jatt) and Banga (Saini)..

Chamar use Sandhu and Bhatti in my village and Chura use Bains. These people stoped using their original surmanes and started using the surnames of their Landlords they were working for. Their language and behavior can also set them apart even when well educated.

parasar
01-13-2019, 05:48 PM
They never accepted any of their mistakes and Narasimhan even ignored my Twitter posts toward him when I questioned the pre-print data. Not only did they mislabel PJL samples as UK diaspora Punjabis but they made other mistakes such as mislabeling where the Kashmiri Muslim or Dogra samples are from. I'll reconfirm which one it was.
...
I would follow the coordinates provided:
Punjabi 31.50 74.30 Lahore
Dogra 34.17 74.75 N. Srinagar
Kashmiri Muslim 33.88 74.93 S. Srinagar

Sapporo
01-13-2019, 11:23 PM
I would follow the coordinates provided:
Punjabi 31.50 74.30 Lahore
Dogra 34.17 74.75 N. Srinagar
Kashmiri Muslim 33.88 74.93 S. Srinagar

The coordinates provided for UK Punjabi diaspora are Lahore, which means they are PJL samples while the coordinates for Kashmiri Muslim are near Pulwama and apparently the Dogra samples are from Srinagar even though the vast majority of Dogra live in Jammu.

agent_lime
01-14-2019, 05:32 AM
.

Chamar use Sandhu and Bhatti in my village and Chura use Bains. These people stoped using their original surmanes and started using the surnames of their Landlords they were working for. Their language and behavior can also set them apart even when well educated.

I know a family that are likely chura, chamars using Jatt last name. They do not talk about caste at all, or about being Jatt. Their kids are very well educated high performing individuals. Really impossible to tell them apart. Maybe the whole family are genetic/ phenotypical outliers and my understanding of the situation is wrong. Being in an urban setting their daughter is married into a regular caste Punjabi family. Imagining that my read on the situation is accurate them revealing their caste would severely limit who their daughters can marry, even in a love marriage situation. General caste Punjabis in urban areas go across caste lines(sometimes into Sindhis, Kashmiris, Haryanvis) but almost never marry into Chura, Chamars.

26284729292
01-15-2019, 02:53 AM
I know a family that are likely chura, chamars using Jatt last name. They do not talk about caste at all, or about being Jatt. Their kids are very well educated high performing individuals. Really impossible to tell them apart. Maybe the whole family are genetic/ phenotypical outliers and my understanding of the situation is wrong. Being in an urban setting their daughter is married into a regular caste Punjabi family. Imagining that my read on the situation is accurate them revealing their caste would severely limit who their daughters can marry, even in a love marriage situation. General caste Punjabis in urban areas go across caste lines(sometimes into Sindhis, Kashmiris, Haryanvis) but almost never marry into Chura, Chamars.

I know a similar family near where I live. There's absolutely no way that they're jatt. They've always shyed away from their background, but their surname is a jatt surname. Pheno wise, it seems to line up as well. One of them married a muslim (malik). I'm assuming that this is progressive or something of that sort.

pegasus
01-17-2019, 08:32 AM
I know a family that are likely chura, chamars using Jatt last name. They do not talk about caste at all, or about being Jatt. Their kids are very well educated high performing individuals. Really impossible to tell them apart. Maybe the whole family are genetic/ phenotypical outliers and my understanding of the situation is wrong. Being in an urban setting their daughter is married into a regular caste Punjabi family. Imagining that my read on the situation is accurate them revealing their caste would severely limit who their daughters can marry, even in a love marriage situation. General caste Punjabis in urban areas go across caste lines(sometimes into Sindhis, Kashmiris, Haryanvis) but almost never marry into Chura, Chamars.

Reminds me of this article posted few years back

In a shocking case of caste discrimination, a 22-year-old Jat Sikh man from Punjab allegedly committed suicide days after his marriage, after coming to know that his mother-in-law is a Dalit, says a report
https://www.scoopwhoop.com/man-commits-suidice-after-coming-to-know-about-dalit-caste-of-his-motherinlaw/#.nxar5ddvu

agent_lime
01-17-2019, 09:05 AM
Reminds me of this article posted few years back

In a shocking case of caste discrimination, a 22-year-old Jat Sikh man from Punjab allegedly committed suicide days after his marriage, after coming to know that his mother-in-law is a Dalit, says a report
https://www.scoopwhoop.com/man-commits-suidice-after-coming-to-know-about-dalit-caste-of-his-motherinlaw/#.nxar5ddvu

This family has 2 kids now. I have met the girl and guy. I also know the family actively tries to not talk about caste. Unless we get a genetic test from such families it's impossible to know the truth. And the truth will only hurt everyone involved. Although I don't believe in lying about your background when you are going to marry the person.

Censored
01-17-2019, 09:49 AM
This family has 2 kids now. I have met the girl and guy. I also know the family actively tries to not talk about caste. Unless we get a genetic test from such families it's impossible to know the truth. And the truth will only hurt everyone involved. Although I don't believe in lying about your background when you are going to marry the person.

I have yet to meet a single person who admitted to being a low caste in the US. Everyone is “Brahmin” or “don’t know” what they are.

26284729292
01-17-2019, 10:01 AM
I have yet to meet a single person who admitted to being a low caste in the US. Everyone is “Brahmin” or “don’t know” what they are.

Ah yes we've talked about this.
There is some truth to it, but a lot of falsehood. Surname in any non south indian will tell you immediately.

Sapporo
01-17-2019, 06:11 PM
Ah yes we've talked about this.
There is some truth to it, but a lot of falsehood. Surname in any non south indian will tell you immediately.
Not if they’re using a surname of another community. The story of discrimination and suicide above is awful but the family should have been more transparent to avoid it. It’s better just to avoid marrying people like the son-in-law and his family rather than deceiving them to let the marriage be accepted.

Unless an individual looks stereotypically Chura or chamar, many (Chamars) at least can get away with pretending they’re from another community.

poi
01-17-2019, 06:52 PM
Reminds me of this article posted few years back

In a shocking case of caste discrimination, a 22-year-old Jat Sikh man from Punjab allegedly committed suicide days after his marriage, after coming to know that his mother-in-law is a Dalit, says a report
https://www.scoopwhoop.com/man-commits-suidice-after-coming-to-know-about-dalit-caste-of-his-motherinlaw/#.nxar5ddvu


Not if theyíre using a surname of another community. The story of discrimination and suicide above is awful but the family should have been more transparent to avoid it. Itís better just to avoid marrying people like the son-in-law and his family rather than deceiving them to let the marriage be accepted.

Unless an individual looks stereotypically Chura or chamar, many (Chamars) at least can get away with pretending theyíre from another community.

Is arranged marriage the norm within Sikh Jatts? If so, do they look for jatt/non-jatt, caste, etc during match making?

Regarding that suicide guy, he sounded like someone who was already mentally troubled and just needed a reason to go. It is difficult to imagine (may be my own biases) that somebody killing himself over a mother-in-law's background.

Sapporo
01-17-2019, 07:20 PM
Is arranged marriage the norm within Sikh Jatts? If so, do they look for jatt/non-jatt, caste, etc during match making?

Regarding that suicide guy, he sounded like someone who was already mentally troubled and just needed a reason to go. It is difficult to imagine (may be my own biases) that somebody killing himself over a mother-in-law's background.
I'm pretty sure it's (arranged) still the standard in India and for many 1st generation diaspora Jatt Sikhs. Regarding, multi-gens, if they don't already have a BF/GF, it's more common for people to be "introduced" to one another and to date for awhile to see if they're compatible and like one another before marriage is on the table. With regards to backgrounds, yes, most families and individuals still consider biradari, tribe, caste, etc. when marrying. Essentially, most people prefer to marry within their own biradari/tribe as that aspect of their identity is still important to them even if they may not state it openly (think certain Amritdhari or so called religious Sikhs). While Jatt Sikhs will marry with Sikh Khatris, Tarkhans, Rajputs, Gujjars, Saini, etc. on occasion, marrying a Chamar or Chura is essentially unheard of. They're more likely to marry a non South Asian or non Punjabi than a Chamar or Chura.

I wouldn't be so quick to presume this individual was completely off the deep end when they committed suicide. They certainly didn't have great mental health but this honor suicide or honor killing stuff isn't completely non-existent. It's quite rare but I'd have to be disingenuous to pretend it doesn't happen.

Agent_Vinod
01-17-2019, 07:56 PM
I know a family that are likely chura, chamars using Jatt last name. They do not talk about caste at all, or about being Jatt. Their kids are very well educated high performing individuals. Really impossible to tell them apart. Maybe the whole family are genetic/ phenotypical outliers and my understanding of the situation is wrong.

SCs here in my place mostly look & live like stereotyped ones unlike some Punjabi counterparts who don’t give that vibe rather resembles non SC one..Like singer Sukhvinder Singh resembles a good deal with an elder cousin of mine..More interesting incident of years back where I almost written to authorities to inquire about a Sikh girl who was listed as SC candidate in the competitive exam but looked an anomaly sort , atleast from my image of SCs 'back then'..

Otoh , have come across SCs from Shahdara-Seemapuri area with Khatri surnames(like Chopra , Kapoor , Kohli , Madaan etc) where it was fairly easy for me to decode them..And it is not just NCR ; recently my Khatri neigbour in this UP city was lamenting how his surname(Sagar) can be now come across among ‘qoutawalas’ also(& hence he reverted back to using ‘Saggar’)..

poi
01-17-2019, 09:14 PM
I'm pretty sure it's (arranged) still the standard in India and for many 1st generation diaspora Jatt Sikhs. Regarding, multi-gens, if they don't already have a BF/GF, it's more common for people to be "introduced" to one another and to date for awhile to see if they're compatible and like one another before marriage is on the table. With regards to backgrounds, yes, most families and individuals still consider biradari, tribe, caste, etc. when marrying. Essentially, most people prefer to marry within their own biradari/tribe as that aspect of their identity is still important to them even if they may not state it openly (think certain Amritdhari or so called religious Sikhs). While Jatt Sikhs will marry with Sikh Khatris, Tarkhans, Rajputs, Gujjars, Saini, etc. on occasion, marrying a Chamar or Chura is essentially unheard of. They're more likely to marry a non South Asian or non Punjabi than a Chamar or Chura.

I wouldn't be so quick to presume this individual was completely off the deep end when they committed suicide. They certainly didn't have great mental health but this honor suicide or honor killing stuff isn't completely non-existent. It's quite rare but I'd have to be disingenuous to pretend it doesn't happen.

Oh, I don't doubt at all about the honor killings/suicide at all. Typically females are at the receiving end. I would have been less amazed if that guy killed his mother-in-law because of her actions deceiving him, rather than killing himself to preserve his honor.

Sapporo
01-17-2019, 11:50 PM
Oh, I don't doubt at all about the honor killings/suicide at all. Typically females are at the receiving end. I would have been less amazed if that guy killed his mother-in-law because of her actions deceiving him, rather than killing himself to preserve his honor.

I don't think killing himself was to preserve his honor but to "atone" for the dishonor he brought upon his own family. At least that seems like it would be the rationale used in this messed up situation.

bmoney
01-25-2019, 03:20 AM
Yamnaya might have possessed J since it is 50% Near Eastern

There is a J EHG sample, Karelia HG but most of J (beyond specific subclades) is not a core IE lineage

Kapisa
10-08-2020, 02:51 PM
Ah yes we've talked about this.
There is some truth to it, but a lot of falsehood. Surname in any non south indian will tell you immediately.

You are right. Surnames in Punjab is significant and can disclose your background/socioeconomic status and geography. More true in rural areas then urban though. Interestingly its similar in Lebanon a diverse country: someone said if you tell me your surname I can tell where in Lebanon you are from and from what religious group (Lebanon has many).

MonkeyDLuffy
10-09-2020, 07:43 AM
You are right. Surnames in Punjab is significant and can disclose your background/socioeconomic status and geography. More true in rural areas then urban though. Interestingly its similar in Lebanon a diverse country: someone said if you tell me your surname I can tell where in Lebanon you are from and from what religious group (Lebanon has many).

It can, but some Musselis/chamars seem to use surnames from other biradaris. Especially when they move to cities. So it becomes hard to tell in some cases. Know plenty chamars/Churahs that use jatt/Rajput surnames. The churah of our village apparently use Jatt surname (Jhajj).