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Jon
04-04-2018, 03:41 PM
Hi All,

I recently had my FTDNA matches analysed at Scottish Origenes. Briefly, the analysis involves a cross-referencing of surname matches with clusters of farming families in Scotland (from the census records) of those surnames. The idea is that farming communities tend to stay put; and that by examining clusters of associated surnames, the risk of confounding the data due to NPE etc is reduced. Sounds sensible to me.

Anyway, in my particular case, I've been stuck on my male (Sharp) line for years. MDKA is in south Ayrshire in 1742. With L193 (Z17817), I was thinking we maybe came from further north, like Perthshire or Stirlingshire.

Anyway, the surname analysis places my line south of where they are in 1742 - just north of Dumfries in the Nith Valley. I was aware of Sharp families in this area, but have not yet established a paper trail link. Sure enough, lots of my matching surnames cluster in this small area- The migration would make perfect sense as well - just upriver into south Ayrshire.

I wanted to post this, as the analysis was combined with an estimated 'ethnicity' of Ancient Briton. Nithsdale seems to have been just on the border of Galloway (Gaelic) and the old Kingdom of Strathclyde lands (Cumbric speaking). My matches are pretty much 50/50 Gaelic names and non-Gaelic names, but most all Scottish.

I always felt that if L193 was heavily represented in the Strathclyde Brits, there should be more of it further south into England? That's why I always guessed L193 must have migrated south, post Iron Age, into more southerly areas, after the Roman occupation ended.

Anyway, just wanted to share this analysis with you all, as I think on the surnames/location aspect it seems very plausible. Not sure about the DNA side. Any thoughts welcome.

Dave-V
04-05-2018, 01:13 AM
The Irish/Scottish/other Origenes geographic associations to surnames based on DNA at least as it was done some years ago lacked scientific rigor; although some people felt the results were accurate for them, others did not.

See for instance here on Anthrogenica: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1260-A-civil-discourse-on-IrishOrigenes-methods&highlight=origenes, or this link: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies, this one: https://cruwys.blogspot.com/2014/06/a-look-at-genetic-homeland-case-reports.html, and the other sites linked further from those.

My personal opinion is that if your ancestors DID stay in one place, the method may certainly find them, but then it's not really any different from using old census records and other data to locate a surname.

But the method required too many unsubstantiated leaps, cherry-picking of evidence and assumptions as to surname origins and which DNA to use over others for it to be actually scientific. As far as I know it's not able to be independently replicated and provide the same answers, and it also has not been verified through DNA testing of the surnames in the identified geography to prove the connection (which would need to be verified multiple times to prove the approach, not just one or two isolated cases! As I said, it's possible that the method does get it right every once in awhile but that doesn't mean it actually works).

I'll fully admit though that I haven't looked at the methodology in a few years so if it has changed significantly it's possible that it's more reliable.

Jon
04-05-2018, 10:52 AM
Thanks Dave. I agree that it's basically a version of a census analysis. What is impressive however is the detail on the map; this is what actually persuaded me to go for it. I saw a graphic online recently and with Galloway, for example, he's managed to place a lot of the old (and mostly extinct) Galloway gaelic names (e.g. MacGuffock), onto their farmsteads. This is certainly information available in the records, but must have taken a lot of time and effort to actually compile.

Regarding the methodology, I just can't tell. I mean, if we accept that the names we match with, especially at 67 and 111 GD, are fairly close relatives, then logically it seems fair enough to me to look at which geographical location/s feature exactly that cluster. For example, he ID'd 5 different locations of Sharp farming families in Scotland; but only one location where Sharp converges with all of the surnames I match with most frequently at the upper matching levels of 111 and 62/67. Going on a rough estimate of surnames coming into play around 1000 years ago, it seems that's where they might have been.

What I still struggle with is how to link this with the older DNA picture. If they were indeed in the Nithsdale area around 1000 years ago when they acquired surnames, where were they before that? I know that the Galloway region is tricky in this regard, as it was a real melting pot in the early medieval period. If you go further back in my matches, there seesm to be an increas in Argyllshire surnames (e.g. MacDuffee; Maclean; McIntyre etc.), which thin out the closer I get to 67 and 111. Could this mean an even earlier folk migration from the west down into Galloway? I just read today in WJ Watson's wonderful 'Celtic Placenames of Scotland' that settlement of Dumfriesshire from Argyll must have been happening from around the 7th century (based on historical linguistics). Any thoughts on how this fits the L193 DNA picture??

Mag Uidhir 6
04-11-2018, 05:38 PM
I'll not name him here, although he probably wouldn't mind....I have a member in my Airgialla II group that has LONG standing historical ties in Scotland. Oddly enough, there has been a Maguire "neighbor" just a few drives down....for at least 4 generations. He and I have matched Y111 and SNPs unto Z16337....which is the weird MacGuire SNP....McGuire, Maguire, MacGuire, etc....

We are cousins of L193....about 2000 yrs ago....when S5668 broke apart.

I personally, think we were two tribes that meandered across the Belgian/French coast and wandered wherever the booty was best for our tribes. But, being a USN retired guy maybe I'm a bit prejudiced. My Grandad did WWI, my Dad did Korea, I've done everything since 77....so, a large bit of the cold war and all of the follow on crap that followed.

Apparently, being a Sailor, is in our DNA...I'm the only goofball to do 30 yrs...Grandad and Dad did their hitch and came back to the farm. I tried that, it didn't work out, a year later, the farm was sold at auction, much to my dismay. Dad was 52....and suddenly, jobless. Life sucked in 1985!

Grandma McGuire always said "we came from royalty"....I always thought she was a bit crazy.

And then I found her genealogy notes from the 40s!!!

And then, in 2008, I sent in a DNA kit to these folks called FTDNA.

Now??? Grandma, was MORE correct than she ever knew!!! It is amazing, the level of detail that I can now delve into!!

L21 > L513 > S5668 > Z16340.......and beyond!!! What I once thought was a break out point for one ancestor has shown to be three levels down on the Big Tree. I'm looking for cousins that have differences now!! On known hard paper.

I still ain't found Patrick's parents....but that will come. I'm patient like that.

Nqp15hhu
02-14-2019, 12:38 PM
How much did this cost you? I’m thinking of doing this for my Cummins ancestry.

Dubhthach
02-19-2019, 09:11 AM
How much did this cost you? I’m thinking of doing this for my Cummins ancestry.

I'd stay away from any of the Origenes sites, it's somewhat pseudo-scientific. What level of Y-STR testing have you done? I'm assuming you've gotten either a L513 or L193 result or show matches with men who are L193+

Nqp15hhu
02-25-2019, 11:19 PM
I'd stay away from any of the Origenes sites, it's somewhat pseudo-scientific. What level of Y-STR testing have you done? I'm assuming you've gotten either a L513 or L193 result or show matches with men who are L193+

Thanks, I tried him before and was offered results for £300 - no thanks.

My results are at the Y-DNA 37 level, my closest match shares 36 with me, and my closest surname matches shares 33. I do have numerous L193 matches, yes.

I'm not sure where to proceed from this point?

Dubhthach
02-26-2019, 10:48 AM
Thanks, I tried him before and was offered results for £300 - no thanks.

My results are at the Y-DNA 37 level, my closest match shares 36 with me, and my closest surname matches shares 33. I do have numerous L193 matches, yes.

I'm not sure where to proceed from this point?

Well join the Ireland project (if you aren't already a member) and I'll run a genetic distance report for you comparing your results against other project members.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ireland-heritage/

We obviously have a fair number of L513+ men in project including L193+. Obviously from a point of view of wider Ulster history L193 sits on same branch of L513 which the McGuires/Maguires of Fermanagh cluster (Airghialla II cluster)

eg.
L21/S145 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > A7 > S5979 > L193
vs.
L21/S145 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > FGC9807 > FGC9795

It would seem that S5668 (and thus L513) dates back to period covering transition between Bronze and Iron age so probably been found in both Ireland and Scotland (via it's branches) for a very long time.

You could potentially just test L193 by itself ($39), there is also L513 SNP bundle which is more expensive but which would test you for a large number of SNP's. I'm not sure though if it tests many/any of sub-branches of L193.

Nqp15hhu
02-26-2019, 04:29 PM
Would the L193 kit give me a branch of L193?

I have just joined the project, so I look forward to your analysis.

Thank you.

Dubhthach
02-26-2019, 09:17 PM
Would the L193 kit give me a branch of L193?

I have just joined the project, so I look forward to your analysis.

Thank you.

So you have a minimum of 20 L513+ (most in the S5668+ subgroup) confirmed matches in GD report. They range in genetic distance from 2 to 7. In both cases your closest confirmed L513+ match and your most distant are both also confirmed as L193+. So I'd imagine it's fairly certain that you belong in this branch of L513.

I just had a look and it turns out there is a L193 SNP bundle test for $119:



R1b - S5982&L193 SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
L193, Z17299, FGC32661, A8, A3, Z17817, A1063, A1067, Z17813, Z17815, Z17816, ZS4576, ZS4578, BY2634, S5982, A1075, BY651, Z18059, Z18060, Z18065, A5863, A5864, BY3152, ZS4584, ZS4585, A1064, A1065, BY11240, BY11249, FGC39900, A9, FGC31823, FGC31824, Z17295, Z17294, Z17296, Z17297, Z17298, BY207, ZS4581, FGC32004, BY2635, BY2636, BY2637, BY2638, FGC39512, FGC39513, FGC39508, FGC39511, BY4017, BY4018, BY4019, BY4020, BY4021, BY4024, ZS4577, ZS4580, ZS4582, ZS4583, ZS4587, ZS4588, FGC30219, FGC30223, FGC30231, FGC30221, FGC39649, FGC32128, BY11239, FGC32082, FGC32083, FGC32085, FGC32087, FGC32088, FGC32090, BY11214, BY11221, BY11238, BY11243, BY11210, BY11211, BY11555, BY11559, BY11212, BY11231, BY11218, BY11247, BY11242, FGC39507, BY11241, FGC36506, FGC36507, BY11558, BY11554, BY11227, BY11228, BY11224, BY11230, BY11217, FGC30218, FGC30222, FGC30220, BY4023, BY11556, A1069, FGC39651, Z17814, FGC40094, BY11557, A1072, A1074, FGC40129, FGC40130, FGC39793, FGC39794, BY11248, A1066, A1068, BY11244, BY11245, A5862, A5865, FGC39899, FGC39901, BY11232, BY11220, BY11233, BY11234, BY11215, FGC32836, FGC32837, BY11226, BY11216, FGC32123, FGC32124, FGC32127, Z18061, Z18062, Z18063, Z18064, FGC35609, FGC35610, BY11246, BY11552, BY11237, BY11213, FGC36390, FGC36391, BY11250, BY11229, FGC21249, FGC21250, FGC35851, FGC35852, FGC32657, FGC32658, BY11219, FGC31825, FGC31827, FGC32001, FGC32002, A7712, A7713, BY13856, BY13857, A5867

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
M9846, BY11236, BY11222, BY11549, BY11550, BY11551, BY11553


Looking at this it does appear to cover the major branches of L193:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=539

Obviously $119 is more of an ask then $39 for just L193 test, however given it tests quite a large number of SNP's you end up with considerably more data (eg. what branches of L193 you might be negative or positive for) at a very low cost per snp. If it helps I could always do some sponsorship via the Ireland project fund (say $39) to help bring the cost down.

Nqp15hhu
02-26-2019, 10:23 PM
So what does this mean? Is there L193 in Ireland?

What surnames are the closest matches? Elliott/McClean?

Dubhthach
02-27-2019, 10:13 AM
So what does this mean? Is there L193 in Ireland?

What surnames are the closest matches? Elliott/McClean?

Sure of course, there's at least 35 confirmed L193+ in the Ireland project. Obviously there are those untested like yourself who should get a L193+ result. Your closest surname matches in project are:
Ferguson, McKnight, Craig, Drew, Parker, Elliot, Patterson, Montgomery, Wilson, Hood

Most of those men are tested to either 67 or 111 STR's. Age analysis on L193 done back in 2017 by Dr. Iain McDonald predicted the following:


Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 1819.49 YBP (131 AD). The 95% confidence interval is 304 BC to 478 AD.

S5668 which is ultimate parent of both L193 and the Maguire/McGuire cluster (Airghialla II) had following prediction:

Using the aging method developed by Iain McDonald, the median age of this block is 3336.89 YBP (1388 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1921 BC to 913 BC.

It would suggest that during the Iron age when you had variations of insular Celtic spoken across both Ireland and Britain that S5668 entered both Ireland and Scotland. In case of 'Airghialla II' cluster if is indeed the signature of Mag Uidhre (McGuire/Maguire) it's been present in SW Ulster (Fermanagh) for at least 900 years. L193 is probably introduced into Ireland during the 16th-17th centuries, though there might have been some bleed over earlier in shape of Gallowglasses/Redshanks from Western Scotland into medieval Ireland.

Nqp15hhu
02-27-2019, 11:42 AM
Thanks, Dubhthach. I have a few questions regarding my Y-DNA results, perhaps you or someone else can answer them?

- According to the manager of my surname project, I have matches of Cumming/Cummins at the 31/32/33 level. I cannot see these as FTDNA only allows me to go back to 34? Is this the case? Most of my online matches are in the 10-12 category. (I have one cummins in Donegal at 10, and wondered how i’d be connected to that person if they’re of a different origin)
- Is it common for your own surname to be “rare” within the matches in frequency?
- Have you been able to pinpoint a common ancestral location for my surname?


Thanks, lol! Still learning.

Jon
03-18-2019, 02:54 PM
Thanks, I tried him before and was offered results for £300 - no thanks.

My results are at the Y-DNA 37 level, my closest match shares 36 with me, and my closest surname matches shares 33. I do have numerous L193 matches, yes.

I'm not sure where to proceed from this point?

Hi Guys - Tyrone Bowes does offer a cheaper option at 199 Dollars (at least he did a year ago). The same analysis, but without his personal report - he takes you through his analysis by e-mail.

In fairness, there are aspects of the Origenes approach which I think were useful. For example, he includes copies of 3 maps, one of which is a surnames map with all farming family surname clusters from early records. His rationale is that farming communities are the least likely to have moved significantly, so represent some of the earliest surname locations. The map I received of Scotland was incredibly detailed, and for my surname it did indeed include all the clusters I had discovered in my own research.

His DNA analysis is based on 67-marker matches, which in my case includes lots of L193 typical names. This, combined with surname locations, forms the basis of his conclusions. While I'm not sure how accurate his DNA analysis is, I did find the surname history and location work to be very helpful.

I am perhaps a good example - I'm also L193; I sit on the Z17817 branch with Meek. My MDKA is in South Ayrshire; but there's a family legend that we came down from Perth/Angus regions before that - these are the regions where the Sharp surname is most frequent. The Z17817 marker seems to point to Perthshire and central Scotland (including Clan Drummond). But the Origenes analysis concluded firmly that my line came UP from even further south, into Nithsdale towards Dumfries.

The problem is, as Paul has mentioned: L193, even, is very very old. Probably been in Scotland since the Iron Age and before. So one really needs to test as thoroughly as possible to get a detailed idea of the line. Big Y is probably the best option, right? Although I've not taken that route myself yet for financial reasons (!).

Dave-V
03-19-2019, 02:58 AM
Hi Guys - Tyrone Bowes does offer a cheaper option at 199 Dollars (at least he did a year ago). The same analysis, but without his personal report - he takes you through his analysis by e-mail.

I'll avoid getting into a long diatribe about the Origenes method because it's not the point of this thread, but I'll just say every time it comes up I want to run around screaming "it's not science!!!" because it's not. The idea that at the last census all the men with the same surname were Irish farmers chasing their sheep across the same idyllic pastures that their genetic ancestors had lived on since they adopted surnames is as stereotypical as if you said they were all red-headed drunkards and has just as much basis in fact. And I certainly agree the DNA analysis is questionable.

Sorry, pet peeve :-). Readers should probably avoid taking the thread off-track about the method. In any case if the surname analysis is useful and the colorful maps are helpful, who am I to judge.

Edit: and clearly I can no longer keep track of posts I’ve already commented on! Sorry for the duplicate opinion for one I posted here earlier.

Nqp15hhu
03-19-2019, 04:45 AM
To be fair though, on the island of Ireland at least, rural communities didn't move too much.

Jon
03-19-2019, 07:14 AM
Thanks Dave - I always respect your views. Was that after the second coffee already ?! ;)

I agree that he seems to cut some corners...but in genealogy I always learned the basic rule that once you've traced a family back into the 1700's, the technology and transport options available, as well as the nature of especially rural societies like Scotland and Ireland, meant that folks were a lot less mobile than they were in the 1800's. Meaning statistically they were probably in that general location for hundreds of years previous. But I agree that it's a generalisation, and certainly can't be compared to the hard science of DNA.

Back to topic...what was the topic?! Surname/DNA analysis in L193....I'm still no further on. I get the feeling things are slowing down a bit. Been a while since there's been any real movement in the group in terms of breakthroughs. I'm still sitting with Meek on Z17817. Ann Stansbarger and I were working on a theory that a lot of the L193 subclades matched up with the old Mormaer areas - looked like Picts who had flooded into areas left powerless by the retreating Romans. I also don't think L193 can necessarily be thought of as 'borders' any more. Seems well spread over Scotland, and into Ireland as well as we're seeing here.

Dubhthach
03-19-2019, 10:17 AM
To be fair though, on the island of Ireland at least, rural communities didn't move too much.

Generally but there have been some internal migration, so for example in 17th century there was fairly large migration form Ulster into North Connacht (Mayo), so much so that the local dialect of Irish which is normally part of 'Connacht Irish' dialect chain is heavily influenced by 'Ulster Irish'. This was linked to plantation of Ulster. Up until the 19th century there were even communities in parts of Achill island / Mullet peninsula who were known as been 'Ultach' (Ulstermen). Likewise there was also migration after the Battle of Diamond in the late 1790's with up to 7k people displaced in Armagh for example.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/archaeologist-finds-200-year-old-galway-refugee-camp-1.3190982

However I would agree that if people have specific 'local surnames' in a region it's probably showing lack of migration over a long period of time. There are for example some surnames which to this day are highly localised in parts of Ireland. One of more famous examples I can think of is the surname Durack which is so heavily localised to parts of East Clare that many Irish people wouldn't even realise it was an Irish surname:

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Durack&search_type=variants

The family are famous as pioneers in Australia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Durack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_in_Grass_Castles

They even got a whole electoral district in Western Australia named after them:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Division_of_DURACK_2016.png/270px-Division_of_DURACK_2016.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_Durack

Nqp15hhu
03-19-2019, 06:04 PM
Thanks Dave - I always respect your views. Was that after the second coffee already ?! ;)

I agree that he seems to cut some corners...but in genealogy I always learned the basic rule that once you've traced a family back into the 1700's, the technology and transport options available, as well as the nature of especially rural societies like Scotland and Ireland, meant that folks were a lot less mobile than they were in the 1800's. Meaning statistically they were probably in that general location for hundreds of years previous. But I agree that it's a generalisation, and certainly can't be compared to the hard science of DNA.

Back to topic...what was the topic?! Surname/DNA analysis in L193....I'm still no further on. I get the feeling things are slowing down a bit. Been a while since there's been any real movement in the group in terms of breakthroughs. I'm still sitting with Meek on Z17817. Ann Stansbarger and I were working on a theory that a lot of the L193 subclades matched up with the old Mormaer areas - looked like Picts who had flooded into areas left powerless by the retreating Romans. I also don't think L193 can necessarily be thought of as 'borders' any more. Seems well spread over Scotland, and into Ireland as well as we're seeing here.

Well, my 'Irish' link is Ulster Scots, so not really Irish.

What ethnic group with L193 be then? Gaelic?

Jon
03-21-2019, 01:51 PM
The others can correct me if I'm wrong, but to my mind L193 is older than the Gaelic/Brythonic Celtic language split. I've always thought that since L193 is so focused on Scotland, that it was probably found among the Pictish tribes. But recent scholarship seems to favour a Gaelic-speaking population in the west of Scotland since very early on - so I guess L193 could have been found in both.

According to stats I got from the old ScotlandsDNA company, their L193 customers were mostly found in Perthshire and the Hebrides. So this could be Gaelic, or Pictish, or both (!).

Nqp15hhu
03-21-2019, 07:40 PM
Yeah. I’ve got a mix of Highland and Lowland matches, a lot of McClean’s/McClains, McVittie and Elliott’s. Also some border names e.g Savage and Walker. This is of course making it impossible for me to determine an origin!

I think maybe Highlands>Borders>Northern Ireland is the route of migration of my parental line?

How or why they ended up moving to Coleraine from the Highlands is incomprehensible to me!

spruithean
03-21-2019, 09:10 PM
Yeah. I’ve got a mix of Highland and Lowland matches, a lot of McClean’s/McClains, McVittie and Elliott’s. Also some border names e.g Savage and Walker. This is of course making it impossible for me to determine an origin!

I think maybe Highlands>Borders>Northern Ireland is the route of migration of my parental line?

How or why they ended up moving to Coleraine from the Highlands is incomprehensible to me!

It isn't incomprehensible though. People move, things change. They could have settled elsewhere initially and then moved to Coleraine.

I know of a few lineages from the Hebrides that ended up in Ulster. Some Border families that ended up further north within Scotland, people move seeking employment, better conditions, opportunities, military, etc.

Dubhthach
03-25-2019, 09:57 AM
Yeah. I’ve got a mix of Highland and Lowland matches, a lot of McClean’s/McClains, McVittie and Elliott’s. Also some border names e.g Savage and Walker. This is of course making it impossible for me to determine an origin!

I think maybe Highlands>Borders>Northern Ireland is the route of migration of my parental line?

How or why they ended up moving to Coleraine from the Highlands is incomprehensible to me!

It's also worth remembering that the Highlands/Lowlands spilt is really only relevant to late middle ages onwards. There are linguistic signs of Goidelic speech in the Lowlands (and leaving aside the whole issue of Galloway!)

For example 'baile' (thence anglisced 'Bally' eg. Ballymena, Ballymoney etc.)

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map4-w400.png

Obviously generally translated as 'town'/'townland' now adays, historically in Old/Middle Irish it specifically meant a 'landed estate' (tied to a lineage)

'achadh' (field)
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map5-w400.png


Nicolaisen contrasts baile 'hamlet' and achadh 'field' names - the absence of the latter in the south-east of Scotland suggests that the small numbers of Gaelic speakers in the east were "landowners rather than tillers of the soil" (1976: 128) (see Maps 4 and 5).

Basically the Kingdom of Scotland was speaking Middle Irish in the 11th/12th century as it's official language, obviously the incorporation of Lothian into the Kingdom of Scotland at the end of the 10th century resulted in a significant community of 'Old English' speakers within the Kingdom, no doubt the multi-lingugual situation was also increated by fact that in the Western Lowlands you would have had 'Cumbric' spoken which is a Brythonic language closely related to Old/Middle Welsh.

The widespread shift to 'Scots' (as the local variety of Old English became) in the Lowlands was probably driven by increased links into Norman England especially after David I invited in various Norman magnates and the process of creating Burghs which were populated by Scots speakers (at this time called 'Inglis' -- 'Scottis' was used to refer to Gaelic speakers!) help the process of the language shift in Royal Court.

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map9-w400.png

http://www.dsl.ac.uk/images/map11-w400.png

29519

There was obviously plenty of movement about, likewise from the 13th century onwards there was increased movement between Scotland and Ireland (and vice-versa), with the arrival of Gallowglass lineages from the Western Hebrides and later with yearly migrations of Highland troops (Redshanks) to serve in Ulster and Connacht.

Dubhthach
03-25-2019, 10:01 AM
Anyways I would reckon that L193 basically spent the Iron age in Scotland/Northern Britain, whereas it's brother clade FGC9794 (linked to McGuires of Fermanagh) ended up in Northern half of Ireland at around same time.

As a result you are looking at clades that pre-date the spilt of insular Celtic speech into Brythonic and Goidelic branches. One bunch might have stayed in Scotland and eventually spoken a Brythonic language (Cumbric? Pictish?) before shifting to a Goidelic language (what eventually becomes Scottish Gáidhlig) another branch ended up in southern Ulster and eventually spoke a Goidelic language (which eventually becomes Irish)

Jon
03-26-2019, 09:01 PM
Thanks Dubhthach - really interesting stuff as usual. That map of the 'baile' prefixes is fascinating (I had no idea this included the concept of landed estates connected to lineages). What is so striking is how much of them there is in the east/old Pictland. This would clearly underline Gaelic lineages coming into this area and grabbing land. Indeed, many of the names in Fife and Perth, where I have family, are amalgamations of the Pictish 'Pit' with a Gaelic second element, e.g. Pitlochry or Pitlessie. They've speculated that these were old Pictish land areas reassigned to incoming Gaels from the west of Scotland. I love seeing history and language merge like this...

Thanks for your thoughts on L193. If the L193 presence in Ulster perhaps reflects this older migration from Scotland, what about the other L513 branches in Ireland, especially those under S6365 down in Munster and Kerry (e.g. the mainline O'Shea's)? Surely these guys must have been established in southern Ireland from much earlier?

Nqp15hhu
03-27-2019, 03:45 AM
I can’t see any large scale migration from the Republic of Ireland to Scotland in the past, given the tendency to move from Europe over to Ireland via Britain.

Garvan
03-27-2019, 10:50 AM
I can’t see any large scale migration from the Republic of Ireland to Scotland in the past, given the tendency to move from Europe over to Ireland via Britain.

Discussion of migrations between Britain and Ireland tend to have political undertones, but you display Irish flags beside your name, so you know the history. From the Dalriada Gaelic speaking kingdom to my genetic relatives who ended up in the Dundee jute mills.

Nqp15hhu
03-27-2019, 11:21 AM
Yeah but not from the south

Garvan
03-27-2019, 04:49 PM
Yeah but not from the south

From Donegal

Nqp15hhu
03-28-2019, 05:44 PM
Not the South though, even within the island of Ireland there has been very little native mixing from North to South,

alan
03-28-2019, 06:24 PM
About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).

FionnSneachta
03-28-2019, 06:48 PM
There's a story that at some point my 3x great grandmother's family came Donegal to Roscommon. I don't know how many generations before my 3x great grandmother that would have been but the surname is primarily associated with Donegal. I have come across some stories of people from Ulster going to Connacht too. The McGovern surname is also associated with Ulster I think and I have McGovern relatives in Roscommon. Lots of families did tend to remain around the one area (such as my paternal line) but there were opportunities for movement to occur many times throughout Irish history.

Nqp15hhu
03-29-2019, 03:17 PM
About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).

Did they not come from all over Ulster? I have a lot of 1850’s onwards connections in Glasgow and my gg grandfather worked for the Police there.

Nqp15hhu
03-29-2019, 03:18 PM
There's a story that at some point my 3x great grandmother's family came Donegal to Roscommon. I don't know how many generations before my 3x great grandmother that would have been but the surname is primarily associated with Donegal. I have come across some stories of people from Ulster going to Connacht too. The McGovern surname is also associated with Ulster I think and I have McGovern relatives in Roscommon. Lots of families did tend to remain around the one area (such as my paternal line) but there were opportunities for movement to occur many times throughout Irish history.
I have gone through my Irish lines and they are all associated with North western Ulster. There is no suggestion or a link to further south, and that is evident in my matches.

I think most mixing would occur down near Fermanagh and Armagh.

MacUalraig
03-29-2019, 04:07 PM
Did they not come from all over Ulster? I have a lot of 1850’s onwards connections in Glasgow and my gg grandfather worked for the Police there.

There was more migration from Antrim and Down than from the border areas. My study of Kennedy migration shows that and you can see it more generally just by looking at place of birth in the Scottish censuses (1851 has Irish county of birth).

Donegal also provided huge numbers especially to the Glasgow area.
Roscommon also quite a few but probably dropping off further south and the numbers from Munster are negligible. So far I have only found one L226 Kennedy in Scotland (offhand).

I did a special survey of the parish my gf and ggf were from looking at origins:

http://www.kennedydna.com/The%20Irish%20and%20Scottish%20Kennedys%20of%20Cam psie.htm

Nqp15hhu
03-29-2019, 08:19 PM
Yeah, I think really most of the migration is from Northern counties of the Island of Ireland.

Dubhthach
04-01-2019, 02:35 PM
About 17% of the population of Scotland are roman catholic and of them the vast majority got that religion from migrant Irish ancestors who came over in the 19th century from Ireland. The vast bulk of the Irish migration to Scotland actually came from the counties all along what is now the border area between the Republic and Northern Ireland. That included the border counties of Ulster that are now in northern Ireland (Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh) -as well as the Ulster counties that now are in the Republic (Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan) and some of the counties in the Republic that border Ulster but are in Connaught (Sligo, Rosscommon) and Leinster (Longford). Some migrants came from other bits of Ireland but probably 90% of the Irish immigrants came from what is now the northern third of Ireland - an area that straddles both the Republic and NI. However at that time there was no such division in Ireland and indeed technically the Irish were not immigrants in Scotland as all of Ireland at that time was part of the UK, just as Scotland was.

You cannot tell who has Irish ancestry from surnames alone. For instance, in the huge Irish migration to Dundee in the 19th century, two thirds of the migrants were women. Simply arithmetic then dictates half of these Irish women would have had to take local Scottish protestant husbands. Their children would have then had Scottish surnames although the mother may have insisted on them taking the RC religion (or not as the case may be).

Historically also right into mid 20th century there was large scale seasonal migration from West of Ireland to Scotland, for stuff like the potato harvest. There's famous example in case of the 'Achill railway branch' which is now a Greenway



In 1894, the Westport - Newport railway line was extended to Achill Sound. The railway station is now a hostel. The train provided a great service to Achill, but it also is said to have fulfilled an ancient prophecy. Brian Rua O' Cearbhain had prophesied that 'carts on iron wheels' would carry bodies into Achill on their first and last journey. In 1894, the first train on the Achill railway carried the bodies of victims of the Clew Bay Drowning. This tragedy occurred when a boat overturned in Clew Bay, drowning thirty-two young people. They had been going to meet the steamer which would take them to Scotland for potato picking.

The Kirkintilloch Fire in 1937 almost fulfilled the second part of the prophecy when the bodies of ten victims were carried by rail to Achill. While it was not literally the last train, the railway would close just two weeks later. These people had died in a fire in a bothy in Kirkintilloch. This term referred to the temporary accommodation provided for those who went to Scotland to pick potatoes, a migratory pattern that had been established in the early nineteenth century.


Again Achill and Erris is one of those areas where there was significant migration from Ulster during the early 17th century due to effects of plantation of Ulster. So much so that the local dialect of Irish which is technically part of the 'Connacht Irish' dialect chain is significantly shifted towards Ulster Irish.

Dubhthach
04-01-2019, 02:50 PM
Not the South though, even within the island of Ireland there has been very little native mixing from North to South,

Well there was a significant migratory event after the Battle of the Diamond



Mayo witnessed another inward migration of Ulster weavers in the 1790s, but in this case the migrants were Ulster Catholics fleeing from the violent aftermath of the Protestant victory on 21 September 1795 in the sectarian affray near Loughgall, Co. Armagh, known as the Battle of the Diamond. TheIrish Migration, 1750–1800139
subsequent campaign of intimidation, stretching across north Armagh west into Tyrone and east into Down, drove out thousands of Catholic refugees, many of them linen weavers, towards predominantly Catholic areas. Some moved elsewhere within Ulster, some left Ireland altogether for Scotland andAmerica, but most went west to Fermanagh and Connacht, especially the area around Westport, on the Mayo coast. Indeed, the particular violence of theattack in 1798 on Arran’s colony at Mullifaragh was probably not unconnected with this migration by Ulster Catholics (Cullen 1981, 252). The ripple effect of the sectarian violence centred in north Armagh reached at least as farsouth as Tipperary, where even as late as the twentieth century a distinctive‘Ulster Irish’ was evident among those referred to locally as the ‘Oultachs’(Ultachaigh), remembered in local tradition as the descendants of the Ulstermen and women who had moved there in the 1790s (Ó Fiaich 1990, 7–19;Elliott 2000, 226). A balanced perspective of how the ‘sectarian disease’ operated in this period at the level of the parish is given in Kyla Madden’s study of Forkhill, south Armagh (2005, 3–9).


Leaving that aside in the last 200 years most internal migration within Ireland has been from periphery to Dublin and greater Leinster region. A process that continues to build up steam as County Dublin now contains 1.35 million people out of a population of 4.73 m (28.5% of state population) but only makes up 1.31% the area of the Republic (921km² out of 70,274 km²).