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shutout52
04-09-2018, 02:39 PM
Wondering if anyone might have some insight into this. I likely will also post it in the Finland section.

My dad just got tested via Ancestry and it came out pretty much as we expected: All four of his grandparents were born in Finland, so of course that would expect to come out mostly Finnish, maybe some Swedish/Norwegian/Russian in there, perhaps some British Isles since there's a paper trail that leads back to Scotland on one ancestor.

Well, we were close: 99+% Finnish... and <1% Native American.

He said a more specific breakdown put the Finnish to Lakeland/Lapland and also Western Finland/Oulu. Both of those make sense: his mother's parents were from Western Finland (Ylivieska and Toysa and before them it mostly traces back to the Western coast and a bit into Sweden), and his father's parents from up near the Arctic Circle (Tervola, with previous lines in Rovaniemi, Kemijarvi, Sodankyla, Ii, Kittila, and into Northern Sweden).

So... Where would this tiny amount of Native American come from?

Eihwaz
04-11-2018, 02:52 AM
Wondering if anyone might have some insight into this. I likely will also post it in the Finland section.

My dad just got tested via Ancestry and it came out pretty much as we expected: All four of his grandparents were born in Finland, so of course that would expect to come out mostly Finnish, maybe some Swedish/Norwegian/Russian in there, perhaps some British Isles since there's a paper trail that leads back to Scotland on one ancestor.

Well, we were close: 99+% Finnish... and <1% Native American.

He said a more specific breakdown put the Finnish to Lakeland/Lapland and also Western Finland/Oulu. Both of those make sense: his mother's parents were from Western Finland (Ylivieska and Toysa and before them it mostly traces back to the Western coast and a bit into Sweden), and his father's parents from up near the Arctic Circle (Tervola, with previous lines in Rovaniemi, Kemijarvi, Sodankyla, Ii, Kittila, and into Northern Sweden).

So... Where would this tiny amount of Native American come from?

I'm certainly not the best person to explain this, but you're certainly not the only Northeastern European person who scores some Amerindian. How much of it do you score in K15? Erzyas, Mordvins, Tatars, and Russians commonly score it, too, and it's almost certainly not because they have recent Amerindian ancestors. There's this thing called "ANE", or Ancient/Ancestral North Eurasian, which is based on Afontova Gora and Mal'ta samples from Paleolithic Siberia - this population contributed a bit less than half to the genome of most modern Native Americans, with the rest being East Asian. So, the other forum members can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's most likely registering excess ANE + East Asian (also genes from Iron/Bronze Age migrations of Siberians into NE Europe) as "Native American."

shutout52
04-11-2018, 04:07 PM
I haven't run it through any of the GedMatch options yet-- it's my dad's test so I don't have access to the raw data to run it yet, but I will if I can. At the very least I'll see him the summer and can probably do it then.

Thanks for the explanation though, that certainly makes sense.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-11-2018, 04:16 PM
I'm British and I regularly get around 1 % Native American/Amerindian/Arctic Amerindian.
If it isn't noise my guess is also that it could be a trace of something with an Ancient Asian source.
On archaic matches I get a small match with a sample from Altai Siberia.
My Y DNA results suggest a connection to Norway but that may be a 1,000 years ago or longer.

Don Felipe
04-11-2018, 04:26 PM
Northeast Europeans occasionally receive such outlandish trace regions (also "Polynesia"!) on Ancestry. See this link for their results


East European AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/east-european-results/)

I would just consider it a mislabeled region which instead is probably indicative of ancient shared Siberian origins.

Messier 67
04-18-2018, 06:45 PM
It is not noise, nor outlandish. It is traces or in many cases more than trace from parts of East Asia.

If there was no interaction with Western/Central Eurasians, N1c would plot closely with the Chinese and other East Asians. But since much happened along the way, N1c males and the rest of Finns can have 1% Native American. 1% Siberian and so on. None of it is noise.

Noise would be .5% Khoisan for a Finn of 100% Finn Ancestry.

skyyrie
04-22-2018, 10:00 AM
it's obvious most N and R have their Y dnas traced back to north asia ,or SE Asia.

Jenny
04-22-2018, 11:16 AM
Finns and Native Americans were outcasts for many years in places like the UP, that said, 1% seems like noise to me

Messier 67
04-22-2018, 05:18 PM
it's obvious most N and R have their Y dnas traced back to north asia ,or SE Asia.

Yes, and do they consider 1% Neanderthal results "noise"?

If people are being labeled 1% Denisovan, while at the same time only 1% total Native American and East Asian. Then something is completely wrong and biased in the %.

The Denisovan are only from East Asia. And they are tens of thousands of years before the departure from East Asia by P which divided into Q and R. And Denisovan mixing was relatively minimal for there exists no Denisovan mtDNA women (a pre-L offshoot). When the East Asians were mixing with those with those with Denisovan DNA (possible the mtDNA M family in East Asia), they were the ancestors of the Chinese, Koreans, Native American and Indo-European (back when they were Mongoloid in appearance). When these K2 were 100% East Asians like the Chinese (Y-DNA O) they came up 2-4% or more Denisovan. For they did not change much out of Sundaland (Y-DNA k2).

When leaving East Asia (Q and R), they are trying to tell us, all the East Asian DNA vanished for it is just "noise", but Denisovan DNA is not noise in Europe at around 1%. So when they had 100% East Asian admixture in Sundaland and at the same time 2-4% Denisovan DNA, that is fairly accurate. But when they invaded West Eurasia, some will try to convince you they lost all East Asian admixture, but kept about (a rough estimate of) 1/5 of the Denisovan DNA. Shouldn't they also kept around 20% East Asian admixture.

Those in Russia should be getting their admixture above 20% East Asian. Central Europe 10% East Asian. Western Europe 5% East Asian. If they are getting 1% Denisovan.

There are SNPs that are shared between East Asians and Europeans and are discarded/mislabeled to minimize the appearance of a link between East Asia and Europe. But to show something "neat and cool", like being 1% Nethanderthal and 1% Denisovan. That is ok to show.

This is why I like the Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project, because they do show Europeans with Siberian DNA, Native American DNA, and East Asian DNA. While the big companies try to eliminate all links between East and West Eurasia.

Sebbo
04-22-2018, 05:26 PM
I think like has been posted above it is related to Ancient North Eurasians.

skyyrie
04-23-2018, 01:58 AM
Yes, and do they consider 1% Neanderthal results "noise"?

If people are being labeled 1% Denisovan, while at the same time only 1% total Native American and East Asian. Then something is completely wrong and biased in the %.

The Denisovan are only from East Asia. And they are tens of thousands of years before the departure from East Asia by P which divided into Q and R. And Denisovan mixing was relatively minimal for there exists no Denisovan mtDNA women (a pre-L offshoot). When the East Asians were mixing with those with those with Denisovan DNA (possible the mtDNA M family in East Asia), they were the ancestors of the Chinese, Koreans, Native American and Indo-European (back when they were Mongoloid in appearance). When these K2 were 100% East Asians like the Chinese (Y-DNA O) they came up 2-4% or more Denisovan. For they did not change much out of Sundaland (Y-DNA k2).

When leaving East Asia (Q and R), they are trying to tell us, all the East Asian DNA vanished for it is just "noise", but Denisovan DNA is not noise in Europe at around 1%. So when they had 100% East Asian admixture in Sundaland and at the same time 2-4% Denisovan DNA, that is fairly accurate. But when they invaded West Eurasia, some will try to convince you they lost all East Asian admixture, but kept about (a rough estimate of) 1/5 of the Denisovan DNA. Shouldn't they also kept around 20% East Asian admixture.

Those in Russia should be getting their admixture above 20% East Asian. Central Europe 10% East Asian. Western Europe 5% East Asian. If they are getting 1% Denisovan.

There are SNPs that are shared between East Asians and Europeans and are discarded/mislabeled to minimize the appearance of a link between East Asia and Europe. But to show something "neat and cool", like being 1% Nethanderthal and 1% Denisovan. That is ok to show.

This is why I like the Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project, because they do show Europeans with Siberian DNA, Native American DNA, and East Asian DNA. While the big companies try to eliminate all links between East and West Eurasia.


yeah,u r right.

The reason why most eurasians trace their ancestry in SE Asia is that, SE Asia is the only place after Sub Sahara Africa, which harbors a tropical forest and savanna environment,same thing for the primitive Homo sapiens who just came out of Africa.

What's more important is that the Sahara is a geographic barrier for most homo sapiens to accross,so naturally the Homo Sapiens in SE Asia are the only people who live in the familiar pro-hunter-gather tropical environment to excel and multiply and colonize other places

Messier 67
04-23-2018, 03:37 AM
yeah,u r right.

The reason why most eurasians trace their ancestry in SE Asia is that, SE Asia is the only place after Sub Sahara Africa, which harbors a tropical forest and savanna environment,same thing for the primitive Homo sapiens who just came out of Africa.

What's more important is that the Sahara is a geographic barrier for most homo sapiens to accross,so naturally the Homo Sapiens in SE Asia are the only people who live in the familiar pro-hunter-gather tropical environment to excel and multiple and colonize other places

Correct, except for "The reason why most eurasians trace their ancestry in SE Asia is that".

I believe conquest is why R1 is so prolific in Eurasia. N did not do much conquest, and is scattered here and there as a result. And Finns were still labeled mongoloid in the 19th century by Western Europeans to prove N1c did not do much pillaging and all that.

Q left their genetic footprint, for the most part, in North and South America, except for in Turkic tribes and sparsely populated in other areas of Eurasia.

skyyrie
04-23-2018, 03:45 AM
Correct, except for "The reason why most eurasians trace their ancestry in SE Asia is that".

I believe conquest is why R1 is so prolific in Eurasia. N did not do much conquest, and is scattered here and there as a result. And Finns were still labeled mongoloid in the 19th century by Western Europeans to prove N1c did not do much pillaging and all that.

Q left their genetic footprint, for the most part, in North and South America, except for in Turkic tribes and sparsely populated in other areas of Eurasia.

maybe because they developped nomad pastoralism

Messier 67
04-23-2018, 04:00 PM
maybe because they developped nomad pastoralism

I am not saying they didn't, but the Gs and Is (and to a lesser extent Js) of Europe were removed from the gene pool as R1s advanced in Europe from Eastern Europe to Western Europe. But the women that were living with the Gs and the Is remain there to this day. While the G lines vanished and the I lines vanished.

N1c of Finland looks like they picked up the scraps of conquest by the R1a moving to relatively unwanted Finland. N1c is showing up as late arrivals in the Baltic region. After the Indo-European invasion.

Ruderico
04-27-2018, 12:42 PM
While the G lines vanished and the I lines vanished.

"Vanished" and "removed form the genepool" is an overstatement, they are still common in various parts of Europe, particularly I.
Eupedia's map of yDNA G (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif)
Eupedia's map of yDNA I1 (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif)
Eupedia's map of yDNA I2 (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif)

Maybe not 100% accurate, but still evidence enough those paternal lines are still around and kicking.

Messier 67
04-27-2018, 05:46 PM
In Northern, Western and some parts of Eastern Europe, R1 removed the Is and Gs from the gene pool. Where R1s did not conquer in Europe, the Is and Gs stayed in the gene pool.

Even in India where the native lines remained, a small tribe of conquering warlords, R1a, managed to become over 50% of the population of many parts India, particularly Northern and Western. Many Europeans today would call even that genocide.

50,000 years of history and human population in India and in matter of centuries, R1a becomes the dominant haplogroup in Northern India. But, no, the native Y-DNA did not vanish from the gene pool in India, it did in Europe where the R1s settled. It took the reconquest by the Germanic tribes (Saxons, Lombards, Angles and others) to repopulate Europe with Is. Gs had no such luck.

lgmayka
04-27-2018, 06:44 PM
In Northern, Western and some parts of Eastern Europe, R1 removed the Is and Gs from the gene pool.
As Ruderico has already explained to you, this is an (unintentionally insulting) overstatement. Remnants survived, and some are alive to this day.

No one deserves to be told, "You don't exist." Europe has many examples of rare and "exotic" clades. Some may be fairly recent immigrants to the continent, but others are more likely ancient remnants. Others are quite mysterious.

Messier 67
04-27-2018, 07:46 PM
For example in the baltic states, before around 4,000 BCE, 4/5 samples of Y-DNA are I. After around 3,000 BCE, 13/14 samples are R1a/b Indo-European. Not a single case of Nordics found after 3,000 BCE in the study. Today, Nordic males represent 1/7 or 1/8 of the y-dna population, this is after settlers from Scandinavia came back to their cousin's homeland thousands of years later, when they were strong Vikings and such Nordics.

The Celts have a similar replacement rate of the native population, all the G2a and I2s vanish in the studies after the Indo-European invasion and R1b Indo-Europeans at levels of 90-95% of the y-dna population. Close to these levels this today.

If any remnant survived, it was because they did not come in contact with the Indo-Europeans.

Even the Irish agree with me.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/is-distinctive-dna-marker-proof-of-ancient-genocide-1.1426197

The ones that survived were the females.

From the Irish Times article:


“How did these new people impose themselves in such a big way,” he asks. “It has to have been through conflict. The early people were farmers so they invested generations of effort in improving the land. When these new people show up they must have used violence to shift the ‘G-Men’. The frequency of ‘G-Men’ is tiny in Ireland. Compare the statistics: 1 per cent versus 84 percent.”

Ruderico
04-27-2018, 09:39 PM
If any remnant survived, it was because they did not come in contact with the Indo-Europeans.

I advise you to look at the maps and yDNA distributions again, there was a population shift but those patrilinear lineages did not cease to exist

Messier 67
04-27-2018, 09:51 PM
I am not saying they were wiped out in all of Europe, "but In Northern, Western and some parts of Eastern Europe, R1 removed the Is and Gs from the gene pool. the Gs and Is (and to a lesser extent Js) of Europe were removed from the gene pool as R1s advanced in Europe from Eastern Europe to Western Europe."

Areas that were not effected by the proto-Celts and proto-Slavs did not cease to exist.

Ruderico
04-27-2018, 10:21 PM
I am not saying they were wiped out in all of Europe, "but the Gs and Is (and to a lesser extent Js) of Europe were removed from the gene pool as R1s advanced in Europe from Eastern Europe to Western Europe."

Areas that were not effected by the proto-Celts and proto-Slavs did not cease to exist.

Both are everywhere
Eupedia's map of yDNA G (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif)
Eupedia's map of yDNA I1 (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif)
Eupedia's map of yDNA I2 (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif)
The Balkans are a hotbed of I2s and all of them speak IE languages, mostly Slavic.

Haplogroup I2 is the most common paternal lineage in former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Sardinia, and a major lineage in most Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed in Bosnia (55%, including 71% in Bosnian Croats), Sardinia (39.5%), Croatia (38%), Serbia (33%), Montenegro (31%), Romania (28%), Moldova (24%), Macedonia (24%), Slovenia (22%), Bulgaria (22%), Belarus (18.5%), Hungary (18%), Slovakia (17.5%), Ukraine (13.5%), and Albania (13.5%). It is found at a frequency of 5 to 10% in Germanic countries.
This conversation is pointless, I'm done here.

johnthe
12-30-2018, 03:26 PM
It's most likely a misplaced match since you have a small amount of Siberian / northern Arctic / northern Asian heritage which is almost the equivalent of native american because they're sourced from the same ancient people in northeastern Asia. A relative of mine who's part central Asian also had a small percentage of native American on her ancestry test but not on her 23 and me.

ThirdTerm
01-05-2019, 12:12 AM
Siberian ancestry was detected by Lamnidis et al. (2018) in the six early Metal Age individuals from an archaeological site at Bolshoy in the Murmansk Region on the Kola Peninsula. Three Bolshoy individuals had mtDNA haplogroups Z1, C4 and D4, which are common in modern Siberia, and haplogroups C and D further spread to the Americas with Native American founders. The native Siberian genetic component is consistently shared among Uralic-speaking populations. Ancient individuals in Fennoscandia and modern Finns, Saami, Mordovians and Russians showed excess allele sharing with Nganasan. It's likely that Siberian ancestry was mixed up with Native American ancestry by the DNA test company, which makes no distinction between them. Or it was assumed to be Native American because he lives in the US.



Interestingly, results from uniparentally-inherited markers (mtDNA and Y chromosome) as well as certain phenotypic SNPs also show Siberian signals in Bolshoy: mtDNA haplogroups Z1, C4 and D4, common in modern Siberia24,34,35 are represented by the individuals BOO002, BOO004 and BOO006, respectively (confirming previous findings24), whereas the Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) is represented by the individuals BOO002 and BOO004. Haplogroup N1c, to which this haplotype belongs, is the major Y-chromosomal lineage in modern north-east Europe and European Russia. It is especially prevalent in Uralic speakers, comprising for example as much as 54% of eastern Finnish male lineages today36. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia. Additionally, within the Bolshoy population, we observe the derived allele of rs3827760 in the EDAR gene, which is found in near-fixation in East Asian and Native American populations today, but is extremely rare elsewhere37, and has been linked to phenotypes related to tooth shape38 and hair morphology39 (Supplementary Data 2). Scandinavian hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden have also been found to carry haplotypes associated with this allele4. Finally, in the Bolshoy individuals we also see high frequencies of haplotypes associated with diets rich in poly-unsaturated fatty acids, in the FADS genes4,40,41.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5

Táltos
01-07-2019, 01:13 AM
Sounds like ancient shared genes via Siberia as others have pointed out. I just wanted to note that FTDNA’s first version of ethnicity results, Population Finder, commonly gave Finnish results for people who had Native American ancestry.