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View Full Version : Ancient East-West movements across the Caspian



newtoboard
10-02-2013, 04:57 PM
I know users on this board like Jean and Alan have talked about and speculated on movements across the Caspian in a North-South direction. But what about East-West movements which would have likely been ashorter and easier journey? I believe the Central Asian R1b-M269 and its L23 subclades match better with Caucasian R1b than Iranian or Kurdish R1b. Could that have been a west to east migration? On a related note could Y-DNA L1c have migrated in the opposite direction?

alan
10-04-2013, 01:57 PM
That is an interesting thought. Just need to consider period and push-pull factors. M269 and L23 do have what is not a simple wave-like distribution in the east of Europe and SW Asia. There is elevation in L23 in the Balkans, Anatolia, the north Caucasus, Armenians and NW Iran. Noone now knows what the situation in the western steppe was 5000 plus years ago.

I know you are probably looking deeper back in time but I do imagine that the sea and then the kuban were used to link Maylop to NW Iran. It would seem crazy not to have used it. Maykop was also in a position to trade across Azov and the Black Sea too although the evidence of trade beyond the steppes is scarce. Its also true that Mayop's phase of expansion and influence dates to around the time the wheel was invented.

As for east-west or west-east, I do not see anything really pointing to that in the Neolithic or copper age periods. However, I would not rule out a similarity of shoreline groups in the Mesolithic. In the Neolithic the sea may have been more of a barrier. Personally I think R1b looks most likely to have originated in the Iran south Caspian shoreline and moved from there. I actually think it might explain the origin of the striking differences in M269 and M73 distribution if two ancestral P297* lineages headed north along opposite shores of the Caspian at some point c. 9000-5000BC. However, in the case of M269 it is just possible that it was stay-home for longer than M73 and only moved into the Caucasus-steppe interface c. 4000BC - around the time both it and Maykop came into existence. I certainly think a location on the trail between nw Iran and the Maykop zone. However, as their are Maykop derived kurgans in NW Iran this was probably a two-way flow and therefore it cannot be ruled out that R1b was already on the Caucasus-steppe interface earlier. In fact, the fact L23 seems to have moved in large numbers into the Balkans would suggest that it was on the steppes at that time but actual Maykop intrusions didnt really reach there so its clearly complex. Maykop had a steppe element as well as farmers possibly of a south Caucasus origin and possible Iranian connections too.

I know users on this board like Jean and Alan have talked about and speculated on movements across the Caspian in a North-South direction. But what about East-West movements which would have likely been ashorter and easier journey? I believe the Central Asian R1b-M269 and its L23 subclades match better with Caucasian R1b than Iranian or Kurdish R1b. Could that have been a west to east migration? On a related note could Y-DNA L1c have migrated in the opposite direction?

TigerMW
10-04-2013, 07:36 PM
... I believe the Central Asian R1b-M269 and its L23 subclades match better with Caucasian R1b than Iranian or Kurdish R1b. Could that have been a west to east migration? On a related note could Y-DNA L1c have migrated in the opposite direction?
Is there any particular data you are looking at? I haven't looked at this recently but I think it is quite possible that L23 types in Central Asia, particularly to the north are from west to east movements. I guess we have to assume the origin of L23 itself. That's probably a challenge in itself.