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View Full Version : How Did L21 Get to the British Isles and Ireland?



rms2
10-05-2013, 04:16 PM
How did L21 get to the Isles?

alan
10-05-2013, 07:58 PM
By boat :-)

Anglecynn
10-05-2013, 10:11 PM
By boat :-)

Haha i was debating as to whether to say that. :P

Maybe they were world-class swimmers? You never know..

alan
10-05-2013, 11:29 PM
It would have been a scary sight as 100s of naked men came out out the sea at dover with copper knifes in their teeth and a beaker swimming cap.


Haha i was debating as to whether to say that. :P

Maybe they were world-class swimmers? You never know..

alan
10-05-2013, 11:46 PM
Joking aside, the only people capable of arriving on islands would need to have had some sort of tradition of boats themselves or even have been deliberately sought and transported across. I

rms2
10-06-2013, 12:47 AM
Well, if they came early enough, no boat would be needed. Of course, I voted for Beaker Men from the Continent who were already L21+, so, yeah, by boat (or water wings). :P

alan
10-06-2013, 10:25 AM
They could have constructed a massive bow and fired people half of the way to save part of the swim.

I think thin copper sheet boats would have been very picturesque and I would definately include them in a fantasy film about it.

rms2
10-06-2013, 11:16 AM
I notice two people have voted for Neolithic Farmers from the Continent who were already L21+. I am interested in why they voted that way. I was hoping to get some discussion of the origin of L21 started, just for fun.

Dubhthach
10-06-2013, 12:19 PM
The question is how old is L21. I've seen TMRCA calculations pointing at between 2000BC and 1800BC. The question is did it immediately spread around that period or was it bottled up for couple hundred years before saying spreading during the "Atlantic Bronze Age" period (1300-700BC)

rms2
10-06-2013, 12:28 PM
The question is how old is L21. I've seen TMRCA calculations pointing at between 2000BC and 1800BC. The question is did it immediately spread around that period or was it bottled up for couple hundred years before saying spreading during the "Atlantic Bronze Age" period (1300-700BC)

Yes, and those age estimates have considerable margins of error, so L21 could be a couple of thousand years older. It doesn't seem likely that it is much younger.

jdean
10-06-2013, 12:57 PM
The question is how old is L21. I've seen TMRCA calculations pointing at between 2000BC and 1800BC. The question is did it immediately spread around that period or was it bottled up for couple hundred years before saying spreading during the "Atlantic Bronze Age" period (1300-700BC)


Yes, and those age estimates have considerable margins of error, so L21 could be a couple of thousand years older. It doesn't seem likely that it is much younger.

Personally I think L21 is a little older than most estimates, but not by much. However I also think it was probably bottled up for a little while as well, this from L459, Z245, Z260 & Z290

alan
10-06-2013, 02:35 PM
The Atlantic Bronze Age period IMO is not a good scenario for migration INTO the isles. The isles were probably the kingpin in that phase rather than receiver. The much older part of those connections was really Britain, Ireland and northern France/Belgium. There was a very long tradition of constant interaction there from long before the period c. 1300BC that we start calling the Atlantic Bronze Age. Atlantic Iberia only joined in that party briefly c. 1000BC-800BC and its seems the traffic in trade was towards them rather than from them. Anyway Atlantic Iberia is almost entirely DF27 in terms of R1b while the northern part of the Atlantic Bronze Age zone is dominated by L21. So, its a really unlikely scenario as a significant period for R1b entering the isles. The real aspect that extended the zone was Iberia joining in for a couple of centuries but as I said they were more the receiver than the donor in terms of trade and influence. I suspect Iberia joined the zone c. 10-bc due to an improvent in boat technology - especially the sail - under the influence of the Phoenicians. I would still say the most likely source of L21 in Britain was the beaker era from northern France and the Low Countries. France has the most variance followed by England just behind so it makes sense. I suspect L21's dominance must have once been wider along the channel coast and extended to the Rhine but has been majorly diluted by U152 in the late Bronze Age and Germanic U106. Otherwise its impossible to explain L21's dominance in the isles. I personally dont care much about the exact origin of L21 as its just an SNP that is a useful marker and there was essentially no difference between the first L21 man and his P312* father. I am kind of interested in the possibility of remants of P312xL21Xu153XDF27 around the coasts opposite Britain as they could well be part of the trail. I understand there seems to be a significant amount of it in the Belgium area which makes sense. Even if they have a downstream SNP other than those listed above they might be ancestral to L21 as long as the SNP is younger than L21. I suspect France is too undertested to see much of it there.

alan
10-06-2013, 02:46 PM
Well one thing I have learned is that not long after 4500bc there were already early steppe links with the Balkans. Given that the isles and the Funnel Beaker first Neolithic of northern Europe is not much older than 4000BC I dont think it can be totally ruled out that areas settled very late by farmers in European terms could have encorporated R1b, We also have the spread of dairy farming across Europe from Bulgaria c. 5200BC and entering both the steppe and these late farming groups in northern Europe. So there could be multiple considerations because the later wave of farmers in northern Europe, the Alps etc are late enough to have incorporated both dairy groups and even early steppe influences that the much earlier Balkans, LBK and Cardial waves of European farmers c. 2000 years before couldnt have. So they may not have been the same.

That said, the tiny amount of ancient DNA evidence so far does not much support this idea. However, how many sites relating to this later spread of dairy farmers in the mid Neolithic and the spread of farmers in northern and Alpine environments in the late Neolithic have actually been tested. I think its just the once TRB guy. We just need the geneticists to get the finger out and test more yDNA across more periods and areas. Its maddening how often yDNA is not tested despite the improvements in techniques.


I notice two people have voted for Neolithic Farmers from the Continent who were already L21+. I am interested in why they voted that way. I was hoping to get some discussion of the origin of L21 started, just for fun.

Anglecynn
10-06-2013, 04:29 PM
They could have constructed a massive bow and fired people half of the way to save part of the swim.

I think thin copper sheet boats would have been very picturesque and I would definately include them in a fantasy film about it.

Ahead of the curve, given that copper bottom boats were high technology in the 18th century and beyond!

alan
10-06-2013, 04:41 PM
Well dont let facts spoil the story. There is a golden Iron Age boat with oars and a mast found at Broighter near the north coast of Ireland. Maybe it was a model of the full sized rust-proof sheet gold boats that their copper age ancestors brought with them.



Ahead of the curve, given that copper bottom boats were high technology in the 18th century and beyond!

rms2
10-06-2013, 06:47 PM
. . . I personally dont care much about the exact origin of L21 as its just an SNP that is a useful marker and there was essentially no difference between the first L21 man and his P312* father. . .

Oh, I do. Not that I am uninterested in the entire trail from R1 on down, but my interest begins to wain progressively the further upstream from my own subclade one gets. I am still very interested in L21, a little less in P312 as a whole, still less in L11, and so on.

rms2
10-08-2013, 11:21 AM
There is at least one person who responded to this poll who believes that L21 predates the Neolithic Period in the Isles. It would be interesting to see his or her reasons for believing that.

rms2
10-11-2013, 04:40 PM
Now we have two votes for a pre-Neolithic origin for L21 in the Isles. It would be interesting to hear why they think that way, but this thread hasn't roused that much attention, so we probably won't hear from them.

Rory Cain
03-23-2015, 03:32 AM
Yes, and those age estimates have considerable margins of error, so L21 could be a couple of thousand years older. It doesn't seem likely that it is much younger.

You are supported by Yfull whose Y-tree shows an estimated age of 4,700 years for L21.

redeyednewt
05-14-2018, 05:39 PM
I have no idea, I have not really researched or studied Haplogroup L21 as much as I did another one.

glentane
01-08-2019, 06:31 PM
I think thin copper sheet boats would have been very picturesque
Nah at that early date it would have have to have been gold leaf boats of the "hair lock/earring" initial beaker metalcraft type , with oars and a plaid wool sail. The blingtastic alloy rims of prehistory.
A fine Irish tradition.
http://100objects.ie/broighterboat/