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deuterium_1
04-28-2018, 10:49 AM
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/vantage/indus-valley-genetic-contribution-steppes-rakhigarhi

22831

As suspected by many on this forum, it is appears that early results from the Rakhigarhi Indus valley site in Haryana, India have been hinted at last. The inhabitants were a mix of Iranian Chalcolithic farmers and Ancient Ancestral South Indians. It appears to conform with this earlier paper:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/31/292581.full.pdf

It seems that the Indo-Aryans who brought Vedic civilisation to the Indus valley and beyond were as foreign as the Muslim dynasties who came to India 2500 years later to spread Islam. This is a sharp rebuke to Hindutva in India so I am especially happy about this.

MonkeyDLuffy
04-28-2018, 04:01 PM
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/vantage/indus-valley-genetic-contribution-steppes-rakhigarhi

22831

As suspected by many on this forum, it is appears that early results from the Rakhigarhi Indus valley site in Haryana, India have been hinted at last. The inhabitants were a mix of Iranian Chalcolithic farmers and Ancient Ancestral South Indians. It appears to conform with this earlier paper:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/31/292581.full.pdf

It seems that the Indo-Aryans who brought Vedic civilisation to the Indus valley and beyond were as foreign as the Muslim dynasties who came to India 2500 years later to spread Islam. This is a sharp rebuke to Hindutva in India so I am especially happy about this.

I love the fact it's a slap on OIT as well. On the other hand a bit sad that I can't claim IVC anymore because of my Y halogroup and high steppe.

deuterium_1
04-28-2018, 11:31 PM
I love the fact it's a slap on OIT as well. On the other hand a bit sad that I can't claim IVC anymore because of my Y halogroup and high steppe.

Yeah I said something very similar to my cousin in Pakistan who has also been gathering genetic data from my relatives there.I basically said that the OIT is now 100% untenable now.

I shared this article to a Tamil friend of mine because apparently they're the oldest of the South Indian cultures?.

Is there a vague possibility of the Bronze Age civilisations of the Iranian plateau being related to the Indus Valley Civilisation?.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/chalcolithic-era-in-persia

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bronze-age

poi
04-29-2018, 01:07 AM
I love the fact it's a slap on OIT as well. On the other hand a bit sad that I can't claim IVC anymore because of my Y halogroup and high steppe.

IVC died out 3500 years ago. The British dug it up 100 years ago. IVC was most likely a cultural dead-end, as far as South Asian history is concerned.

bmoney
04-29-2018, 01:18 AM
We're all a product of many migrations - do a basic nmonte to find that out. This shouldn't cause another fight lmao.

The most native tribe in SA are the Paniya and even they have migrant genes in them (Iran N). Also please tell your Tamil friend that Tamil is not the oldest culture in South India, these guys are the Lemurian version of the OIT squad.

@Monkey you do have IVC genes via Indus periphery even if your y-hap is Indo-Aryan. IMO if Tamils now have greater than 20% levels of R1a, R1a is basically South Asian full stop even if it mutated somewhere else

I agree with Poi though that the IVC wasn't culturally very relevant due to abandonment but lives on in all of us through genezzz

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 09:39 AM
IVC died out 3500 years ago. The British dug it up 100 years ago. IVC was most likely a cultural dead-end, as far as South Asian history is concerned.

Well hopefully we can find out what they said about themselves if the script is ever deciphered.


We're all a product of many migrations - do a basic nmonte to find that out. This shouldn't cause another fight lmao.

Unfortunately the religious right in India won't accept this because it goes against their claim that Hinduism is indigenous to India.



The most native tribe in SA are the Paniya and even they have migrant genes in them (Iran N). Also please tell your Tamil friend that Tamil is not the oldest culture in South India, these guys are the Lemurian version of the OIT squad.

That is true, Tamils were still in the megalithic age as recently as 1000 BCE right?.



I agree with Poi though that the IVC wasn't culturally very relevant due to abandonment but lives on in all of us through genezzz

Again, best to wait for the script to be deciphered first (if that ever happens). It has been theorised to be either Dravidian or Austro-Asiatic.

vintage_sky
04-29-2018, 11:21 AM
Does anyone know where R2 haplogroup falls into this history of Indian migration?

Saad2016
04-29-2018, 04:00 PM
what is the YDNA of these raghari body remains?

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 05:28 PM
There was NO invasion. The sooner people get this through their thick preconceived heads, the better. And before casting Aryans as foreigners, look at the timelines. All of this happened at some 3500 years ago. That is more than enough to call a place a homeland. There was no invasion and no imposition of culture either. India is an organic mixture of cultures and not a result of an inquisition project.

Judging by the comments on the article, people are still not accepting what has now been confirmed based on empirical scientific data :confused:


Does anyone know where R2 haplogroup falls into this history of Indian migration?


what is the YDNA of these raghari body remains?

We will have to wait for the paper itself.

Saad2016
04-29-2018, 06:11 PM
Judging by the comments on the article, people are still not accepting what has now been confirmed based on empirical scientific data :confused:





We will have to wait for the paper itself.

I agree that populations are not some automatic/instantaneous inclusions through invasions etc. Plus basing something on remains of 1-3 bodies alone is not decisive. Lets not jump to conclusions.

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 07:47 PM
I agree that populations are not some automatic/instantaneous inclusions through invasions etc. Plus basing something on remains of 1-3 bodies alone is not decisive. Lets not jump to conclusions.

That is true, I hope there is more data gathered from Indus Valley sites in Pakistan too:

22846

The problem with these commenters if often they latch onto any article or academic who dissents against the Hindutva view of history and troll them. These comments seem quite tame compared to what I have seen against Audrey Truschke on Twitter for example.

Another depiction from the Indus Valley civilisation, although I think this looks like a mythological creature of some sort. It is very strange:

22847

parasar
04-29-2018, 09:08 PM
...Judging by the comments on the article, people are still not accepting what has now been confirmed based on empirical scientific data

While the R1a1-Z93 expansion shows there was an invasion of some sort (or a heavy in-migration), this recent paper's data in conjunction with archaeology goes fully against any invasion scenario for Iron Age Swat Valley.

As Vidale notes:
"They were socially well organised and apparently very peaceful because no weapons were found from the site, unlike most civilisations."
https://tribune.com.pk/story/466048/a-lost-civilisation-3000-year-old-cemetery-discovered-in-swat/

If someone is thinking that these iron age Aryans at Swat were horsderidng invaders with iron weapons, that is absolutely not the case.
There were not horseriders and the iron that was found is not in weapons.
"Grave 19, fragmentary iron pins ... In grave 19 at Udegram three iron pins were found, one of them still attached to the skull as a hair ornament ... The iron pin worn by the deceased in grave 19 (Figure 6a) faithfully replicates a common copper or bronze pin type also present in grave 6 ..." Protohistoric graveyards of the Swat Valley, Pakistan

parasar
04-29-2018, 09:21 PM
I agree that populations are not some automatic/instantaneous inclusions through invasions etc. Plus basing something on remains of 1-3 bodies alone is not decisive. Lets not jump to conclusions.

It is true that the sample set is just one (at present).
Nevertheless, at least as far as R1a1-Z93 goes, they will not find it even if there are 1000s of samples, because that is a near immposibility for the samples from the Rakhigarhi period. It is phylogeny and ancient dna forund in Samara and Europe that makes that an impossiblity.

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 09:27 PM
While the R1a1-Z93 expansion shows there was an invasion of some sort (or a heavy in-migration), this recent paper's data in conjunction with archaeology goes fully against any invasion scenario for Iron Age Swat Valley.

As Vidale notes:
"They were socially well organised and apparently very peaceful because no weapons were found from the site, unlike most civilisations."
https://tribune.com.pk/story/466048/a-lost-civilisation-3000-year-old-cemetery-discovered-in-swat/

If someone is thinking that these iron age Aryans at Swat were horsderidng invaders with iron weapons, that is absolutely not the case.
There were not horseriders and the iron that was found is not in weapons.
"Grave 19, fragmentary iron pins ... In grave 19 at Udegram three iron pins were found, one of them still attached to the skull as a hair ornament ... The iron pin worn by the deceased in grave 19 (Figure 6a) faithfully replicates a common copper or bronze pin type also present in grave 6 ..." Protohistoric graveyards of the Swat Valley, Pakistan

That's unusual because the Indo-Iranians are known to have used bronze axes. I wonder what accounted for this change in the Swat valley?.

It has been claimed that there is continuity between pottery from the Late Harappan and Gandharan grave culture.

redifflal
04-29-2018, 09:40 PM
Is it appropriate to use "hunter gatherers" for AASI? Especially in the time frame of Indus valley collapse and Steppe incursions?

parasar
04-29-2018, 09:54 PM
That's unusual because the Indo-Iranians are known to have used bronze axes. I wonder what accounted for this change in the Swat valley?.

It has been claimed that there is continuity between pottery from the Late Harappan and Gandharan grave culture.

Exactly.
And now see in which previous context what is being said about Swat by Vidale, was said before:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130910-200-indus-the-only-great-civilisation-ever-to-survive-without-war/

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 10:01 PM
Exactly.
And now see in which previous context what is being said about Swat by Vidale, was said before:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130910-200-indus-the-only-great-civilisation-ever-to-survive-without-war/

They did still have a capacity for inflicting violence on individuals however as is evident from this rather gruesome looking spear from the Indus Valley civilisation meant for disembowelling:

22848

parasar
04-29-2018, 10:10 PM
They did still have a capacity for inflicting violence on individuals however as is evident from this rather gruesome looking spear from the Indus Valley civilisation mean for disembowelling:

22848

Yes I had seen these. The purpose is not clear, nor is the provenance. Some think that this came from the mines in the modern Rajasthan area. Other say the modern Singhbhum area is a possibility.
See also Meadow's opinion:
"The Indus people certainly did have serviceable weapons of copper-alloy materials including knives, spears, and arrow heads (many have been found) and there are depictions, for example, of a man spearing a water buffalo so the concept of attacking with a spear is certainly present."
https://www.harappa.com/answers/how-peaceful-was-harappan-civilization

See also the spear below, 3:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg/744px-Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg.png

deuterium_1
04-29-2018, 10:38 PM
Yes I had seen these. The purpose is not clear, nor is the provenance. Some think that this came from the mines in the modern Rajasthan area. Other say the modern Singhbhum area is a possibility.
See also Meadow's opinion:
"The Indus people certainly did have serviceable weapons of copper-alloy materials including knives, spears, and arrow heads (many have been found) and there are depictions, for example, of a man spearing a water buffalo so the concept of attacking with a spear is certainly present."
https://www.harappa.com/answers/how-peaceful-was-harappan-civilization

See also the spear below, 3:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg/744px-Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg.png

The Indus Valley Civilisation was more chalcolithic then?.

Yes Spear 3 is a perfect match for the picture that I posted. I would have not liked to have been been speared by that :\.

bmoney
04-30-2018, 12:04 AM
That is true, Tamils were still in the megalithic age as recently as 1000 BCE right?.

There seems to be a Megalithic culture in South India probably composing of pure AASI hunter gatherers but to tie them to iron-age Tamil civilization and thereby claim the whole thing as continuous is disingenuous IMO. The Tamil language itself is a newer split from the Dravidian language family than Kurukh/Malto and Brahui

Megalophias
04-30-2018, 12:08 AM
Is it appropriate to use "hunter gatherers" for AASI? Especially in the time frame of Indus valley collapse and Steppe incursions?
For that matter how do we know the South Asian Neolithic farmers in the Northwest weren't heavily AASI to being with? We have no Mehrgarh DNA alas but the Early Neolithic population's dental traits are supposed to be rather East Eurasian, and group with Madia Gonds or something among modern populations (though that analysis was all over the place, still it seems they can hardly have been just Iranian farmers). While Chalcolithic Mehrgarh population is distinct from their predecessors and clusters with a different South Asian groups.

Kambo
04-30-2018, 01:19 AM
I'm surprised that few focus on the "flawed" (using Rai's words from the article) aspects of the model.
For instance, the IVC in its time was considered the most populous area on Earth (millions of population). It has no equivalent parallel below the Vendhya range. Where did these millions of people go?

Kambo
04-30-2018, 01:25 AM
from the article, Rai says: "“The Indus Valley people were indigenous, but in the sense that their DNA had contributions from near eastern Iranian farmers mixed with the Indian hunter-gatherer DNA, that is still reflected in the DNA of the people of the Andaman islands.”

If the near eastern Iranian farmers built the IVC, why aren't there equivalent structures built near the point of claimed origin? Did the hunter-gatherers have the missing mathematical/engineering knowledge required?

Kulin
04-30-2018, 01:47 AM
from the article, Rai says: "“The Indus Valley people were indigenous, but in the sense that their DNA had contributions from near eastern Iranian farmers mixed with the Indian hunter-gatherer DNA, that is still reflected in the DNA of the people of the Andaman islands.”

If the near eastern Iranian farmers built the IVC, why aren't there equivalent structures built near the point of claimed origin? Did the hunter-gatherers have the missing mathematical/engineering knowledge required?


There are civilizations in the Near East that a lot of people posit a connection to the IVC like the Elamite civilization in Southern Iran or Sumer in Messopotamia.

tipirneni
04-30-2018, 02:19 AM
There are civilizations in the Near East that a lot of people posit a connection to the IVC like the Elamite civilization in Southern Iran or Sumer in Messopotamia.

TELUGU NAYAKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OLDEST MATERNALLY LINKED TO OLD DRAVIDIAN MIGRATION.

THE VELAMA NAME OCCURS IN NUMEROUS PLACES IN CENTRAL INDIA (Ellore, Ellur. Elam ETC... IN Rashtrakuta INSCRIPTIONS). The old name for NAYAKS is AMAR NAYAK which SOUNDS SIMILAR TO AMUR OR AMORITE ELAMS DURING 2ND MILLENIUM.

Just to give back ground on 1 to many matches on GED & myHeritage

At 7Cm/700 matches
at 20-100cM the top matches are mostly cluster to Kamma/VeLAMA ,
but below 20cM, I see Jewish, German/lbk, Gypsy, Shia, Reddy, Some Tamils, Scottish/Pict

anthroin
04-30-2018, 02:46 AM
TELUGU NAYAKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OLDEST MATERNALLY LINKED TO OLD DRAVIDIAN MIGRATION.

THE VELAMA NAME OCCURS IN NUMEROUS PLACES IN CENTRAL INDIA (Ellore, Ellur. Elam ETC... IN Rashtrakuta INSCRIPTIONS). The old name for NAYAKS is AMAR NAYAK which SOUNDS SIMILAR TO AMUR OR AMORITE ELAMS DURING 2ND MILLENIUM.

Just to give back ground on 1 to many matches on GED & myHeritage

At 7Cm/700 matches
at 20-100cM the top matches are mostly cluster to Kamma/VeLAMA ,
but below 20cM, I see Jewish, German/lbk, Gypsy, Shia, Reddy, Some Tamils, Scottish/Pict

Oh my God! No need for all caps, no? (You seem to have a liking for it, but it is considered to convey shouting on the internet and it really does not appear there is any need to shout and it also somewhat appears you may have no particular intention of shouting so I just wanted to bring it to your notice.) (Also, I'll refrain from entering the fearsome linguistic territory altogether.)

tipirneni
04-30-2018, 02:55 AM
Oh my God! No need for all caps, no? (You seem to have a liking for it, but it is considered to convey shouting on the internet and it really does not appear there is any need to shout and it also somewhat appears you may have no particular intention of shouting so I just wanted to bring it to your notice.) (Also, I'll refrain from entering the fearsome linguistic territory altogether.)

No intention of shouting. Just highlighting some facts based on Genetic evidence and some inscriptions evidence.

Kambo
04-30-2018, 06:38 AM
There are civilizations in the Near East that a lot of people posit a connection to the IVC like the Elamite civilization in Southern Iran or Sumer in Messopotamia.

For the moment, those connections are tenuous, even though there are intriguing hints of certain similarities or coincidences. I.e. Rim Sin, Warad-Sin.

deuterium_1
04-30-2018, 07:24 AM
There seems to be a Megalithic culture in South India probably composing of pure AASI hunter gatherers but to tie them to iron-age Tamil civilization and thereby claim the whole thing as continuous is disingenuous IMO. The Tamil language itself is a newer split from the Dravidian language family than Kurukh/Malto and Brahui

Are there any Brahui genetic samples?, it would be interesting to compare with the genetic data of the inhabitants of Indus Valley sites in Balochistan such as the Kulli and Nal.



If the near eastern Iranian farmers built the IVC, why aren't there equivalent structures built near the point of claimed origin? Did the hunter-gatherers have the missing mathematical/engineering knowledge required?

The Elamite civilisation was comparable to the Indus Valley civilisation, its language also remains undeciphered. Considering that the Indus Valley Civilisation and the Elamite (most probably) had Iranian neolithic ancestry, there may have been some connection.


There are civilizations in the Near East that a lot of people posit a connection to the IVC like the Elamite civilization in Southern Iran or Sumer in Messopotamia.

Elamites were more easterly inclined so they may be more likely to be related?.

redifflal
04-30-2018, 04:41 PM
So is the "Iranian" farmer gene flow also heavily male mediated? It will be useful to understand why or how there seems to be a historical (or in this case prehistoric) pattern regarding the disproportionate sex based migration. In the modern era, I'd daresay it continues but we have factors to pinpoint to. Example, states like Haryana with massive gender imbalance caused by female infanticide (brought about by dowry pressure mainly) are now having males from various classes acquiring brides from tribal communities.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/world/asia/india-freedom-project/index.html


Eastern Indian states like Assam, Jharkhand, West Bengal and Odisha turn into source areas for bride trafficking, because they have much more balanced sex ratios. Meanwhile, India's northwestern states are more conservative and also more affluent, meaning they're able to afford ultrasound scans and selective abortions.

Was there such case in the past also? I do know that Kushan would definitely have a very strongly male mediated migration due to being driven out of their Tarim basin homeland, but not sure what cultural forces would be at play for Neolithic Iranian farmer to also have a male mediated migration into AASI territory. With regards to steppe and if that is indeed the onset of varnashrama, then you may be able to pinpoint it to a historical excess of males in northwest due to female infanticide (before abortions they just used to leave the baby girls out to die) along with caste system codifying that men of higher caste have available to them women of their same level caste and/or lower.

tipirneni
04-30-2018, 07:05 PM
So is the "Iranian" farmer gene flow also heavily male mediated? It will be useful to understand why or how there seems to be a historical (or in this case prehistoric) pattern regarding the disproportionate sex based migration. In the modern era, I'd daresay it continues but we have factors to pinpoint to. Example, states like Haryana with massive gender imbalance caused by female infanticide (brought about by dowry pressure mainly) are now having males from various classes acquiring brides from tribal communities.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/world/asia/india-freedom-project/index.html

Was there such case in the past also? I do know that Kushan would definitely have a very strongly male mediated migration due to being driven out of their Tarim basin homeland, but not sure what cultural forces would be at play for Neolithic Iranian farmer to also have a male mediated migration into AASI territory. With regards to steppe and if that is indeed the onset of varnashrama, then you may be able to pinpoint it to a historical excess of males in northwest due to female infanticide (before abortions they just used to leave the baby girls out to die) along with caste system codifying that men of higher caste have available to them women of their same level caste and/or lower.

In South It depends upon Castes, Since each one holds few kingdoms the way they expand makes difference.

These people might be closed societies during Chalcolithic times & lived in closed forts. But mostly were matrilineal during Iron age in Vedic expansion due to Integrations & started diverging in groups only after Ishkvaku expansion in the south. Soldiers in the main Capitol were called Kamma, outside the capitol are were Velama, other related to them were called Reddy.

The soldiers in Capitol had more opportunity to mix with newer soldiers coming in from North such as Kushan, Kamboja, Hun, Cholas etc.. Many of these groups patrilineally mixed with existing soldiers taking up wives locally. Also due to Buddhist influence these big groups in the capitol were matrimonally connected with ruling elite from UP/Bihar. This is reflected in the genome.

whereas the ones outside in smaller principalities didnt get that many soldier groups from North post Ikshvaku period which is why Reddy groups have lesser of these newer explorers & older genome diluted with local populance.

I ran K36 report here it is
https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/d89c24d4-9209-4cd4-b63e-94f56ea66847.png
Correlation values (values below 0.2 are insignificant, below 0 completely not important)
1 Velamas 0.99968
2 Gujarati_D 0.99954
3 Muslim UP 0.99949
4 Tharus 0.99879
5 Meghawal 0.99786
6 Lambadi0.99595
7 Gujarati_C 0.99536
8 Scheduled Caste UP 0.99414
9 Scheduled Caste Tamil Nadu 0.99359
10 Cochin_Jew 0.99116
11 South_Brahmin 0.99085
12 Brahmin UP 0.99026
13 Bangladeshi 0.99025
14 Bangladeshi 0.99025
15 Kshatrija UP 0.99001
16 Bengali 0.98963
17 Kurumba0.9887
18 Brahmin Tamil Nadu 0.9868
19 Gujarat 0.98595
20 Yadava 0.98293
22879
22880

bmoney
05-01-2018, 01:00 AM
So is the "Iranian" farmer gene flow also heavily male mediated? It will be useful to understand why or how there seems to be a historical (or in this case prehistoric) pattern regarding the disproportionate sex based migration. In the modern era, I'd daresay it continues but we have factors to pinpoint to. Example, states like Haryana with massive gender imbalance caused by female infanticide (brought about by dowry pressure mainly) are now having males from various classes acquiring brides from tribal communities.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/world/asia/india-freedom-project/index.html

Was there such case in the past also? I do know that Kushan would definitely have a very strongly male mediated migration due to being driven out of their Tarim basin homeland, but not sure what cultural forces would be at play for Neolithic Iranian farmer to also have a male mediated migration into AASI territory. With regards to steppe and if that is indeed the onset of varnashrama, then you may be able to pinpoint it to a historical excess of males in northwest due to female infanticide (before abortions they just used to leave the baby girls out to die) along with caste system codifying that men of higher caste have available to them women of their same level caste and/or lower.

I've always wondered that too, why would a farming urban society not bring their females.

I think some of the U clades came with Iran neo, but it seems odd that such a significant amount of mixture with slash and burn mtdna M hunter gatherers occurred.

You would have instead expected them to be driven off their land for more productive farming use.

This is less drastic compared to the Vedic Aryans who would have carried common ANE and Iran N ancestry on their way through the Turan before they hit SA, and as such not as different genetically

Kambo
05-01-2018, 04:58 AM
Does anyone know where R2 haplogroup falls into this history of Indian migration?

Traveled with R1a.

Generalissimo
05-01-2018, 05:43 AM
Traveled with R1a.

No it didn't.

R2 is from Neolithic farmers from Iran, who didn't carry any R1a.

Kambo
05-01-2018, 02:18 PM
No it didn't.

Then why is it all the way up in Central Asia/Siberia? And what's it doing amongst the the main Y-haplos of North Indian Brahmins?

Don't be so sure of yourself.

Kambo
05-01-2018, 02:20 PM
No it didn't.

R2 is from Neolithic farmers from Iran, who didn't carry any R1a.

As I said - it TRAVELED with R1a.

agent_lime
05-01-2018, 07:20 PM
I studied 3 years of Sanskrit in school and a few weeks of Russian (though I lost interest). They are remarkably similar languages (something I didn't notice when learning Spanish), digging in further I found some Russian accounts of being able to speak with each other 2000-3000 years ago(sorry I cannot find the link I looked).

I thought there was some thought to reference ANI populations having a Georgian component. There seems to be some cultural exchange between Steppe people and IVC. Entirely possible that Hinduism is a mix of IVC and Steppes culture. Anyway here is a couple of links for interested people-

https://1000petals.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/amazing-affinity-of-russian-and-sanskrit/

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/01/sanskrit_and_russian_ancient_kinship_39451

Awale
05-01-2018, 08:22 PM
Then why is it all the way up in Central Asia/Siberia?

Well, because it's probably tied to ANE ancestry the same way R1 is with the steppe so there's no surprise that it's found in Central Asia/Siberia where you find an abundance of ANE-related ancestry to this day and, well, Iran-Neolithic farmers, like the Hotu-Cave Hunter-Gatherer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves) before them, also carry substantial ANE-related ancestry that probably rolled into the Iranian Plateau from Central-Asia at some point and brought in R2, it's what mainly differentiates Epipaleolithic/Neolithic Iranians and Caucasians from their contemporaries in the Levant and Anatolia who didn't really have any ANE-related ancestry.


And what's it doing amongst the the main Y-haplos of North Indian Brahmins?

Random founder-effects? It doesn't have to be some early Indo-Iranian lineage simply because it's common among North-Indian Brahmins...

Saad2016
05-01-2018, 08:46 PM
I studied 3 years of Sanskrit in school and a few weeks of Russian (though I lost interest). They are remarkably similar languages (something I didn't notice when learning Spanish), digging in further I found some Russian accounts of being able to speak with each other 2000-3000 years ago(sorry I cannot find the link I looked).

I thought there was some thought to reference ANI populations having a Georgian component. There seems to be some cultural exchange between Steppe people and IVC. Entirely possible that Hinduism is a mix of IVC and Steppes culture. Anyway here is a couple of links for interested people-

https://1000petals.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/amazing-affinity-of-russian-and-sanskrit/

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/01/sanskrit_and_russian_ancient_kinship_39451


Similar affinities existed between Urdu and American English during the peak of cold war era but then faded away with the changing world scenario. The article is not a solid one. Some Similarities are always there in languages from across the world. You can do 10's of such comparisons for instead Similar words between Hindi and Persian, Similar words between Hindi and Somali etc. etc. but these do not prove much.

johen
05-01-2018, 08:57 PM
I studied 3 years of Sanskrit in school and a few weeks of Russian (though I lost interest). They are remarkably similar languages (something I didn't notice when learning Spanish), digging in further I found some Russian accounts of being able to speak with each other 2000-3000 years ago(sorry I cannot find the link I looked).

I thought there was some thought to reference ANI populations having a Georgian component. There seems to be some cultural exchange between Steppe people and IVC. Entirely possible that Hinduism is a mix of IVC and Steppes culture. Anyway here is a couple of links for interested people-

https://1000petals.wordpress.com/2013/08/18/amazing-affinity-of-russian-and-sanskrit/

https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/01/sanskrit_and_russian_ancient_kinship_39451

So do you mean that Sanskrit is MORE similar to Russian than to Hindu language? B/c the Hindu language would be mixed with IVC language and steppe language, right?

mephisto
05-01-2018, 09:20 PM
Well, because it's probably tied to ANE ancestry the same way R1 is with the steppe so there's no surprise that it's found in Central Asia/Siberia where you find an abundance of ANE-related ancestry to this day and, well, Iran-Neolithic farmers, like the Hotu-Cave Hunter-Gatherer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves) before them, also carry substantial ANE-related ancestry that probably rolled into the Iranian Plateau from Central-Asia at some point and brought in R2, it's what mainly differentiates Epipaleolithic/Neolithic Iranians and Caucasians from their contemporaries in the Levant and Anatolia who didn't really have any ANE-related ancestry.
This is not just wrong, it is absurd. R1 is not connected to ANE like ancestry. It's like claiming haplogroup E is connected to West African ancestry. People have to understand that uniparental markers cannot be just connected to a type of autosomal admixture. Both R1 and R2 are from the Near East. R2 spread directly from Iran to South Asia, while R1 came over the Caucasus. Also do you seriously claim that the only difference between Iranian Neolithics to their contemporary Anatolian/Levantine neighbours is ANE like ancestry? I can't take this serious.

Observer
05-01-2018, 09:32 PM
So do you mean that Sanskrit is MORE similar to Russian than to Hindu language? B/c the Hindu language would be mixed with IVC language and steppe language, right?

No, Sanskrit is more similar to other Indo-Iranian languages. Indo-Iranian languages shows some similarity with Balto-Slavic in terms of vocabulary but not in terms of grammar or word-order.

Balto-Slavic has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in Sanskrit. Similarly, Sanskrit has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in other I.E languages. Balto-Slavic are SVO word-order, while Sanskrit is SOV word-order. Both also have retroflex which isn't found in PIE.

Awale
05-01-2018, 09:34 PM
Also do you seriously claim that the only difference between Iranian Neolithics to their contemporary Anatolian/Levantine neighbours is ANE like ancestry? I can't take this serious.

Nope, not at all, that's why I didn't actually claim that. I said mainly not only... And autosomal-DNA wise, it is the most glaring difference between the two clusters. Is this a controversial point now or did I miss something?

Generalissimo
05-01-2018, 09:35 PM
This is not just wrong, it is absurd. R1 is not connected to ANE like ancestry. It's like claiming haplogroup E is connected to West African ancestry. People have to understand that uniparental markers cannot be just connected to a type of autosomal admixture. Both R1 and R2 are from the Near East. R2 spread directly from Iran to South Asia, while R1 came over the Caucasus. Also do you seriously claim that the only difference between Iranian Neolithics to their contemporary Anatolian/Levantine neighbours is ANE like ancestry? I can't take this serious.

What evidence is there in ancient DNA that R1 arrived in Eastern Europe from the Near East via the Caucasus?

Obviously, R1 is frequent in ancient Eastern European samples, while it's non-existent in the pre-Bronze Age Near East, so how are you getting this strange idea?

Agamemnon
05-01-2018, 11:05 PM
No, Sanskrit is more similar to other Indo-Iranian languages. Indo-Iranian languages shows some similarity with Balto-Slavic in terms of vocabulary but not in terms of grammar or word-order.

Balto-Slavic has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in Sanskrit. Similarly, Sanskrit has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in other I.E languages. Balto-Slavic are SVO word-order, while Sanskrit is SOV word-order. Both also have retroflex which isn't found in PIE.

That's irrelevant quite frankly.

pegasus
05-02-2018, 01:11 AM
Similar affinities existed between Urdu and American English during the peak of cold war era but then faded away with the changing world scenario. The article is not a solid one. Some Similarities are always there in languages from across the world. You can do 10's of such comparisons for instead Similar words between Hindi and Persian, Similar words between Hindi and Somali etc. etc. but these do not prove much.

What nonsense are you saying, Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages are both Satem languages, they have a common root.

pegasus
05-02-2018, 01:22 AM
This is not just wrong, it is absurd. R1 is not connected to ANE like ancestry. It's like claiming haplogroup E is connected to West African ancestry. People have to understand that uniparental markers cannot be just connected to a type of autosomal admixture. Both R1 and R2 are from the Near East. R2 spread directly from Iran to South Asia, while R1 came over the Caucasus. Also do you seriously claim that the only difference between Iranian Neolithics to their contemporary Anatolian/Levantine neighbours is ANE like ancestry? I can't take this serious.

R* originates with MA1 people in Siberia/North ASia , EHG are largely descended from them and the Khalvynsk people who are down stream from them (but with 20% Zagrosian related ancestry) , they were largely R1a. ANE is intrusive to the Near East where it was brought in by R2 carrying MA1 people from Central Asia who mixed with Iranian Basal Eurasians to form Iranian famers, in most of Europe's case ANE was mainly brought in far later with Yamna.

pegasus
05-02-2018, 11:06 AM
I love the fact it's a slap on OIT as well. On the other hand a bit sad that I can't claim IVC anymore because of my Y halogroup and high steppe.

Actually you can because your main ancestry is still Indus Periphery.

agent_lime
05-02-2018, 01:13 PM
Similar affinities existed between Urdu and American English during the peak of cold war era but then faded away with the changing world scenario. The article is not a solid one. Some Similarities are always there in languages from across the world. You can do 10's of such comparisons for instead Similar words between Hindi and Persian, Similar words between Hindi and Somali etc. etc. but these do not prove much.

This might be the most absurd statement I have ever read on the Hindi section. You know most of us understand and can speak Urdu?


So do you mean that Sanskrit is MORE similar to Russian than to Hindu language? B/c the Hindu language would be mixed with IVC language and steppe language, right?

I think the correct comparison would be ancient Russian vs Sanskrit. IMO Sanskrit is closer to some North Indian languages but the difference is not that huge. Frankly, I would have get back into studying Sanskrit and learning Russian to have an educated real answer to this.


No, Sanskrit is more similar to other Indo-Iranian languages. Indo-Iranian languages shows some similarity with Balto-Slavic in terms of vocabulary but not in terms of grammar or word-order.

Balto-Slavic has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in Sanskrit. Similarly, Sanskrit has non-I.E substrata, which is not found in other I.E languages. Balto-Slavic are SVO word-order, while Sanskrit is SOV word-order. Both also have retroflex which isn't found in PIE.

I was showing a link between Sanskrit and Russian, the fact that Sanskrit and Avestan or Hindi are closer are frankly irrelevant.

mephisto
05-02-2018, 01:28 PM
R* originates with MA1 people in Siberia/North ASia , EHG are largely descended from them and the Khalvynsk people who are down stream from them (but with 20% Zagrosian related ancestry) , they were largely R1a. ANE is intrusive to the Near East where it was brought in by R2 carrying MA1 people from Central Asia who mixed with Iranian Basal Eurasians to form Iranian famers, in most of Europe's case ANE was mainly brought in far later with Yamna.
You apparently don't know that MA1 and his R* has more than 40 novel mutations (he could get an own haplogroup asigned, maybe R^-10) which means that he is a dead end. But I won't discuss this here on the "Hindi" section. I also think it does not make any sense to discuss this when you are connecting autosomal admixture with uniparental markers.

Myths and customs seem to be an essential part of the discussion on this sector, some people claim that Russian and Sanskrit were mutually intelligible 2000 years ago which is completely nonsense, because Russian did not even exist back then.

vintage_sky
05-02-2018, 02:20 PM
Well Im glad a started a healthy debate re: R2 haplogroup. My ancestry comes from the Kshaytria since my gotra originates from the Raput of Jammu allegedly. I couldn't say why R2 is found amongst the Brahmins etc except that R2 may have held a position of importance during IVC. Who knows? Not enough research is found.

I am inclined to believe it has a neolithic iranian presence from the Ganj Dareh excavations and the older R2 found in parts of Central Asia. Its difficult to say but I find it hard to believe it arose in India. It makes no sense. But then the OOI theorist are usually nationalists or have some kind of agenda to even assume R1a arose in India LOL

poi
05-02-2018, 03:12 PM
Well Im glad a started a healthy debate re: R2 haplogroup. My ancestry comes from the Kshaytria since my gotra originates from the Raput of Jammu allegedly. I couldn't say why R2 is found amongst the Brahmins etc except that R2 may have held a position of importance during IVC. Who knows? Not enough research is found.

I am inclined to believe it has a neolithic iranian presence from the Ganj Dareh excavations and the older R2 found in parts of Central Asia. Its difficult to say but I find it hard to believe it arose in India. It makes no sense. But then the OOI theorist are usually nationalists or have some kind of agenda to even assume R1a arose in India LOL

I have quite a few (Nepali) brahmins with R2 in my 23andme relatives list.

agent_lime
05-02-2018, 03:46 PM
Did a little more research and the precursor to Russian is known as Balto Slavic. It stands to reason since Avestan and Sanskrit are related languages that they are related to the Balto Slavic languages (since they were not that far away). Anyway, I'll stop posting about language. From Wikipedia-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Balto-Slavic_lng.png

Saad2016
05-02-2018, 08:01 PM
What nonsense are you saying, Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages are both Satem languages, they have a common root.

Indo-European Family Tree is very wide. So if you u start basing the affinity between various languages on this basis then yes every language would be linked to another.

and this would imply Sanskrit is similar to Greek, Sanskrit is similar to Bulgharian, Sanskrit is similar to German, Sanskrit is Similar to Czech, Finnish and so on.....we all know that there is not much similarity between Sanskrit and Russian and that's what I wanted to say. The closest Language to Sanskrit would be current day Hindi or Urdu.

Kulin
05-02-2018, 09:14 PM
Indo-European Family Tree is very wide. So if you u start basing the affinity between various languages on this basis then yes every language would be linked to another.

and this would imply Sanskrit is similar to Greek, Sanskrit is similar to Bulgharian, Sanskrit is similar to German, Sanskrit is Similar to Czech, Finnish and so on.....we all know that there is not much similarity between Sanskrit and Russian and that's what I wanted to say. The closest Language to Sanskrit would be current day Hindi or Urdu.

Sanskrit is closer to Balto-Slavic than other non-Indo-Iranian IE branches, which is an obvious fact. Also, Hindi/Urdu are hardly the closest languages to Sanskrit gramatically/vocabulary wise. Grammar-wise its debatable of course, but vocabulary-wise Bengali and Marathi have the most Sanskrit-based vocabulary.

tipirneni
05-02-2018, 10:05 PM
Well Im glad a started a healthy debate re: R2 haplogroup. My ancestry comes from the Kshaytria since my gotra originates from the Raput of Jammu allegedly. I couldn't say why R2 is found amongst the Brahmins etc except that R2 may have held a position of importance during IVC. Who knows? Not enough research is found.

I am inclined to believe it has a neolithic iranian presence from the Ganj Dareh excavations and the older R2 found in parts of Central Asia. Its difficult to say but I find it hard to believe it arose in India. It makes no sense. But then the OOI theorist are usually nationalists or have some kind of agenda to even assume R1a arose in India LOL

R2 found widely among Kshtriyas of east India & Kamma pouplation in the south including some Brahmins & farmer caste

pegasus
05-03-2018, 01:32 AM
Indo-European Family Tree is very wide. So if you u start basing the affinity between various languages on this basis then yes every language would be linked to another.

and this would imply Sanskrit is similar to Greek, Sanskrit is similar to Bulgharian, Sanskrit is similar to German, Sanskrit is Similar to Czech, Finnish and so on.....we all know that there is not much similarity between Sanskrit and Russian and that's what I wanted to say. The closest Language to Sanskrit would be current day Hindi or Urdu.

You seem new to the forum but this is very basic stuff which everyone knows here and your statements are very misguided. Finnish is an Uralic language, German is a Centum IE language and a very late one at that. Russian is a down stream Satem language from Balto Slavic so it is related. If you listen to Old Church Slavonic that becomes apparent. IIr languages share more affinities with some Baltic languages compared to the Slavic branch .

pegasus
05-03-2018, 01:53 AM
Sanskrit is closer to Balto-Slavic than other non-Indo-Iranian IE branches, which is an obvious fact. Also, Hindi/Urdu are hardly the closest languages to Sanskrit gramatically/vocabulary wise. Grammar-wise its debatable of course, but vocabulary-wise Bengali and Marathi have the most Sanskrit-based vocabulary.

In terms of Classical Sanskrit yes, I would include Orissa language as well , which I believe Bengali is related with. In terms of Rig Vedic /early Vedic Sanskrit I would definitely say Kalash and Kho languages more so the Kalasha language and it preserved sound features which would have been heard with Proto Indo Aryan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA31aPOH888

Kulin
05-03-2018, 01:57 AM
In terms of Classical Sanskrit yes, I would include Orissa language as well , which I believe Bengali is related with. In terms of Rig Vedic /early Vedic Sanskrit I would definitely say Kalash and Kho languages more so the Kalasha language and it preserved sound features which would have been heard with Proto Indo Aryan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA31aPOH888

Yeah, although Oriya has a lot of austro-asiatic vocabulary due to the large presence of tribal communities.

Ebizur
05-03-2018, 02:31 AM
Well Im glad a started a healthy debate re: R2 haplogroup. My ancestry comes from the Kshaytria since my gotra originates from the Raput of Jammu allegedly. I couldn't say why R2 is found amongst the Brahmins etc except that R2 may have held a position of importance during IVC. Who knows? Not enough research is found.

I am inclined to believe it has a neolithic iranian presence from the Ganj Dareh excavations and the older R2 found in parts of Central Asia. Its difficult to say but I find it hard to believe it arose in India. It makes no sense. But then the OOI theorist are usually nationalists or have some kind of agenda to even assume R1a arose in India LOLHas anyone published a theory to explain the notable diversity and frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R2 among present-day Arabs or the presence of a few fairly deeply divergent lineages among present-day Europeans (e.g. YFull id:YF12133 from Slovakia, id:YF02834 from southern Italy, id:YF08971 from England)?

bmoney
05-03-2018, 03:49 AM
Well Im glad a started a healthy debate re: R2 haplogroup. My ancestry comes from the Kshaytria since my gotra originates from the Raput of Jammu allegedly. I couldn't say why R2 is found amongst the Brahmins etc except that R2 may have held a position of importance during IVC. Who knows? Not enough research is found.

I am inclined to believe it has a neolithic iranian presence from the Ganj Dareh excavations and the older R2 found in parts of Central Asia. Its difficult to say but I find it hard to believe it arose in India. It makes no sense. But then the OOI theorist are usually nationalists or have some kind of agenda to even assume R1a arose in India LOL

Ganj Dareh area is a viable source. Definite Iran Neo related in SA as its also found in the high Iran N BMAC

In South India R2 J and L are correlated

vintage_sky
05-03-2018, 10:18 AM
I have quite a few (Nepali) brahmins with R2 in my 23andme relatives list.

interesting. I have three other matches who are R2 on my matches list all which havent got back to me.

One is Charanjit I think he is Brahmin. One goes by the surname Shah and finally a Nathwani named R2. Nathwani is interesting since the name belongs to the Lonhana. Technically they should be Vaishya but the Lohanas have long claimed a Kshaytria origin. Maybe there is some truth in it? I dont know, but they did rule some of Sindh in the 7th Century i think

vintage_sky
05-03-2018, 10:21 AM
Ganj Dareh area is a viable source. Definite Iran Neo related in SA as its also found in the high Iran N BMAC

In South India R2 J and L are correlated

I agree. The region is neolithic so one could assume it makes sense atleast for R2a. The older R2 branch has be found in samples in Central Asia. I read the correlation between J and L and R2 in India. Particularly the south. I have always theorised that the haplogroup carriers literally became blocked by the sea. Had there been more land going south of South India, there would been a wider spread of all 3 haplogroups.

vintage_sky
05-03-2018, 10:26 AM
R2 found widely among Kshtriyas of east India & Kamma pouplation in the south including some Brahmins & farmer caste

See i find this very interesting, the one issue I have had is that I placed myself on the Yfull tree using FTDNA big Y results. And my snp is awfully elusive. I am not sure where is has come from. I fall under Y1331 but I cannot find any matches. I have a Kuwaiti who falls under Y1331 but he isn't a direct match.

I find that my branch seems to have gotten isolated in the foothills of the Kashmiri Himalyas. But then i have 3 r2 matches based on autosomal dna and none of them are responsive for me to offer them a a Y1331 snp test. None have the same family names or caste.

vintage_sky
05-03-2018, 10:35 AM
Has anyone published a theory to explain the notable diversity and frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R2 among present-day Arabs or the presence of a few fairly deeply divergent lineages among present-day Europeans (e.g. YFull id:YF12133 from Slovakia, id:YF02834 from southern Italy, id:YF08971 from England)?

I know Abdulaziz/Undergrounder was doing some mapping way before I came on the scene. He is busy with other things these days. But one of his main conversers told be there seems to be 4 main branches. Anatolian, Jewish, Arab and South Asian. South Asian falling into L295. But looking at Yfull. L295 is full of Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians Italians and Brits. I think R2 needs a bit more research into it.

tipirneni
05-03-2018, 01:08 PM
See i find this very interesting, the one issue I have had is that I placed myself on the Yfull tree using FTDNA big Y results. And my snp is awfully elusive. I am not sure where is has come from. I fall under Y1331 but I cannot find any matches. I have a Kuwaiti who falls under Y1331 but he isn't a direct match.

I find that my branch seems to have gotten isolated in the foothills of the Kashmiri Himalyas. But then i have 3 r2 matches based on autosomal dna and none of them are responsive for me to offer them a a Y1331 snp test. None have the same family names or caste.

if you look at the tree in FTDNA there is 1 additional Indian member (Vasireddy at Y1283+ 1 level above). This is Kamma member found widely in Krishna-Godavari delta. Kammas have very high R2 similar in distribution to Kshtriyas of Bihar. There are many studies conducted but I havent seen full YDNA published openly.
22940

vintage_sky
05-03-2018, 08:05 PM
if you look at the tree in FTDNA there is 1 additional Indian member (Vasireddy at Y1283+ 1 level above). This is Kamma member found widely in Krishna-Godavari delta. Kammas have very high R2 similar in distribution to Kshtriyas of Bihar. There are many studies conducted but I havent seen full YDNA published openly.
22940

Which studies are out There?

Jilla on the list you posted in a Parsi or Iranian origin.

tipirneni
05-04-2018, 03:27 AM
Ganj Dareh area is a viable source. Definite Iran Neo related in SA as its also found in the high Iran N BMAC

In South India R2 J and L are correlated

J is higher than H1 only (12% to 8% )in Brahmins, among non-Brahmins H1 is way higher (26% vs 6%), especially in south & tribals & brahmin in the east always more than 25%.

All together (Brahmins, schedule castes and tribals), 22 Y-haplogroups were observed. The percentages of seven of these haplogroups (with percentage >5%) accounted for 85.5% of the total number of Y-chromosomes (n=2809). The haplogroups with their percentages in descending order were: R1a1* (21.1%), H1 (19.1%), R2 (10.5%), O (10.1%), L (9.5%), J*/J2 (8.3%) and F* (6.9%).
Five haplogroups out of 18 were found to be most frequent (>5%) in Brahmins (R1a1* (35.7%), J*/J2 (12.4%), L (11.3%), R2 (10.8%) and H1 (8.0%)) and represented 78.2% of the total number of samples (n =767), whereas haplogroup O was found to be very less frequent (0.7%) in Brahmin Y-chromosomes. Seven out of 14 haplogroups (with percentage >5%) (H1 (24.2%), R1a1* (17.2%), R2 (14.2%), L (12.2%), F* (9.8%), J*/J2 (6.4%) and K* (5.3%)) represented 89.3% of the total number of Dalit Y-chromosomes (n =674). Tribal Y-chromosomes represented by seven out of 20 haplogroups displayed percentages >5%: O (25.5%), H1 (25.3%), R1a1* (10.2%), F* (7.5%), R2 (6.4%), J*/J2 (6.1%) and L (5%) (86% of the total number of samples (n=1368)).
Swarkar Sharma et al., “The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system,” J Hum Genet 54, no. 1 (January 9, 2009): 47-55.

tipirneni
05-04-2018, 03:46 AM
Which studies are out There?

Jilla on the list you posted in a Parsi or Iranian origin.

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/4/843 talks about these R2 percentages which is widely present in castes.
http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2006/01/11/0507714103.DC1/07714Table_3.pdf
Among regional groups, it is found among West Bengalis (23%), New Delhi Hindus (20%), Punjabis (5%) and Gujaratis (3%).[34] Among tribal groups, Karmalis of West Bengal showed highest at 100%[10] followed by Lodhas (43%)[41] to the east, while Bhil of Gujarat in the west were at 18%,[35] Tharus of north showed it at 17%,[4] Chenchu and Pallan of south were at 20% and 14% respectively.[10][9] Among caste groups, high percentages are shown by Jaunpur Kshatriyas (87%), Kamma Chaudhary (73%), Bihar Yadav (50%), Khandayat (46%)and Kallar (44%).

It is also significantly high in many Brahmin groups including Punjabi Brahmins (25%), Bengali Brahmins (22%), Konkanastha Brahmins (20%), Chaturvedis (32%), Bhargavas (32%), Kashmiri Pandits (14%) and Lingayat Brahmins (30%).

North Indian Muslims have a frequency of 19% (Sunni) and 13% (Shia),[12] while Dawoodi Bohra Muslim in the western state of Gujarat have a frequency of 16% and Mappila Muslims of South India have a frequency of 5%.

ADW_1981
05-04-2018, 03:51 AM
R* originates with MA1 people in Siberia/North ASia , EHG are largely descended from them and the Khalvynsk people who are down stream from them (but with 20% Zagrosian related ancestry) , they were largely R1a. ANE is intrusive to the Near East where it was brought in by R2 carrying MA1 people from Central Asia who mixed with Iranian Basal Eurasians to form Iranian famers, in most of Europe's case ANE was mainly brought in far later with Yamna.

Khvalynsk were largely R1a? EHG R1a? You sure? Not sure why R1b is excluded here. R1a is found in mesolithic eastern Europe but has a younger expansion time than most R1b branches. In fact most of the aDNA we have from mesolithic Russia is R1b, not R1a.

tipirneni
05-04-2018, 05:33 AM
Khvalynsk were largely R1a? EHG R1a? You sure? Not sure why R1b is excluded here. R1a is found in mesolithic eastern Europe but has a younger expansion time than most R1b branches. In fact most of the aDNA we have from mesolithic Russia is R1b, not R1a.

Sengupta's 2006 study of India included 176 Pakistanis and 728 Indians, for a total of 904 samples. It found 9 M269+ samples, or 1% R1b1b2. 8 had 393=12 and 7 of these 8 also had 461=11, indicating that at least 7 of the M269+ were practically guaranteed to be P310- (probably all 8).

The 9th sample had 393=14 and 461=12, so it was likely a P310+. This 9th sample came from north Pakistan.

Figure 3 in this Kivilsild et al (2003) study for the supporting figures on M269 among the various groups studied. 13 of 35 Lambadi in Andhra Pradesh were M269+, for example. The Lambadi speak Lambadi, which is a branch of Rajasthani, an Indo-European language.

It is interesting that R1b1b2 was the most frequent y haplogroup among the Lambadi men sampled. Of 35 Lambadi tested, 13 were R1b1b2, and only 3 were R1a. 6 were L1; 6 were C*; 3 were H1; 2 were J2*; 1 was F*; and 1 was P*.

Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%, fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India

bmoney
05-04-2018, 06:24 AM
Sengupta's 2006 study of India included 176 Pakistanis and 728 Indians, for a total of 904 samples. It found 9 M269+ samples, or 1% R1b1b2. 8 had 393=12 and 7 of these 8 also had 461=11, indicating that at least 7 of the M269+ were practically guaranteed to be P310- (probably all 8).

The 9th sample had 393=14 and 461=12, so it was likely a P310+. This 9th sample came from north Pakistan.

Figure 3 in this Kivilsild et al (2003) study for the supporting figures on M269 among the various groups studied. 13 of 35 Lambadi in Andhra Pradesh were M269+, for example. The Lambadi speak Lambadi, which is a branch of Rajasthani, an Indo-European language.

It is interesting that R1b1b2 was the most frequent y haplogroup among the Lambadi men sampled. Of 35 Lambadi tested, 13 were R1b1b2, and only 3 were R1a. 6 were L1; 6 were C*; 3 were H1; 2 were J2*; 1 was F*; and 1 was P*.

Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%, fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India

The Banjaras are an interesting group of people

Kulin
05-04-2018, 03:36 PM
Sengupta's 2006 study of India included 176 Pakistanis and 728 Indians, for a total of 904 samples. It found 9 M269+ samples, or 1% R1b1b2. 8 had 393=12 and 7 of these 8 also had 461=11, indicating that at least 7 of the M269+ were practically guaranteed to be P310- (probably all 8).

The 9th sample had 393=14 and 461=12, so it was likely a P310+. This 9th sample came from north Pakistan.

Figure 3 in this Kivilsild et al (2003) study for the supporting figures on M269 among the various groups studied. 13 of 35 Lambadi in Andhra Pradesh were M269+, for example. The Lambadi speak Lambadi, which is a branch of Rajasthani, an Indo-European language.

It is interesting that R1b1b2 was the most frequent y haplogroup among the Lambadi men sampled. Of 35 Lambadi tested, 13 were R1b1b2, and only 3 were R1a. 6 were L1; 6 were C*; 3 were H1; 2 were J2*; 1 was F*; and 1 was P*.

Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%, fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India



What clade(s) of R1b were carried by Tocharians from the Tarim Basin?

tipirneni
05-04-2018, 08:15 PM
the "Tocharian" R1b1b1 (the sister of your R1b1b2) in Uighurs seems like a relic of an early IE expansion
R1b1b2 tocharian http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2010/05/finally-some-good-research-on-r1b1b2.html

language family close to Anatolian, Luwian, Hittite
22958

some more info
The Afanasievo culture was intrusive in the Altai and it introduced a suite of domesticated animals, metal types, pottery types, and funeral customs that were derived from the Volga Ural steppes. This long-distance migration almost certainly separated the dialect group that later developed into the Indo-European languages of the Tocharian branch'

Toch. luks (illuminate) : latin lux (i.e. luks) meaning "light" (also close to russian luch : ray of light)
Toch. nt, nte (fore) : latin ante (in front of, before)
Toch. me (soul) : latin anim- (soul)

There's also some vocabulary quite close to some Hittite/anatolian words. A few examples :

Tocharian A kas.t, Tocharian B kest (famine) : Hittite kast-
Tocharian yam, ya, ym (to do) : Hittite aia- (to do)
Tocharian aryu (long) : Luwian ara-
Tocharian pas. (he gave) : Hittite pai- (to give)

Toch. A arki (white) : Hittite harki- (white, light-colored) or even latin ARGEntus (silver), closer to anything germanic or slavic.

For Tocharian twere (door), you do have door/tr/dr but Russian dver' seems again closer, as Tocharian B mit is closer to russian md than anything germanic, or Tocharian lap (skull) is also closer to slavic lob (forehead) than anything germanic as well.

I'm not saying you can't find very close words in Germanic, of course ( you also have danish okse / toch. B okso; Toch. (A and B) : (laks and lks) (fish) /Danish laks (salmon)), but I'm not so sure we can directly consider Tocharian languages as closer to specific IE european languages.



Allentoft et al (2015) already drew the conclusion that the much younger Tarim basin mummies were not sprung from the earliest wave through autosomal analysis. This implies there were at least two movements eastwards. The latter being R1a1, and the earlier being R1b. I'm not certain that R1a1 was even around, or that far east at the time of Afanasievo or even eastern Yamnaya. I guess we need to see more data. R1b has always been the slightly older brother.

Tomasso29
05-19-2018, 01:55 AM
No it didn't.

R2 is from Neolithic farmers from Iran, who didn't carry any R1a.

Generalissimo, I know you're a huge proponent of the steppes, but you need to look at the bigger picture here. Suppose we entertain the idea that R1a came dropping down to India from the steppes, do you honestly think that it came to there as a single lineage? Based on the latest studies, R2a was found all over South Central Asia, meaning there's a very strong chance that a good chunk of modern R2a in South Asia came down from the samples found in Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan. As the other poster mentioned, it's very possible that it traveled with R1a, along with other lineages that were found in SC Asia like J2, L, etc.

bmoney
05-19-2018, 04:33 AM
Generalissimo, I know you're a huge proponent of the steppes, but you need to look at the bigger picture here. Suppose we entertain the idea that R1a came dropping down to India from the steppes, do you honestly think that it came to there as a single lineage? Based on the latest studies, R2a was found all over South Central Asia, meaning there's a very strong chance that a good chunk of modern R2a in South Asia came down from the samples found in Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan. As the other poster mentioned, it's very possible that it traveled with R1a, along with other lineages that were found in SC Asia like J2, L, etc.

The problem is R2a has been estimated to be older in SA than R1a, and doesn't follow R1a anywhere outside of South Asia.

I'm sure later migrations of R2a came with the Indo-Europeans or other SC Asian migrations like L1a2, but it wasn't something that originally came from the Pontic-Caspian like R1a in South Asia

Tomasso29
05-19-2018, 05:40 AM
The problem is R2a has been estimated to be older in SA than R1a, and doesn't follow R1a anywhere outside of South Asia.

I'm sure later migrations of R2a came with the Indo-Europeans or other SC Asian migrations like L1a2, but it wasn't something that originally came from the Pontic-Caspian like R1a in South Asia

You're misunderstanding, I simply said that R1a's journy to India was likely part of a group where other lineages existed, so it did indeed travel with others.

People need to look at the big picture here, such ancient migrations don't happen over night. So by the time the group arrived to India, it was probably already an Indo-Aryan group that had R1a, R2a, J2, L, H, etc...

bmoney
05-19-2018, 08:36 AM
You're misunderstanding, I simply said that R1a's journy to India was likely part of a group where other lineages existed, so it did indeed travel with others.

People need to look at the big picture here, such ancient migrations don't happen over night. So by the time the group arrived to India, it was probably already an Indo-Aryan group that had R1a, R2a, J2, L, H, etc...

Agree, especially if the Swat Samples are Indo-Aryan (they are genetically) and only 1 R1a was found among them

pegasus
05-20-2018, 04:43 AM
Sengupta's 2006 study of India included 176 Pakistanis and 728 Indians, for a total of 904 samples. It found 9 M269+ samples, or 1% R1b1b2. 8 had 393=12 and 7 of these 8 also had 461=11, indicating that at least 7 of the M269+ were practically guaranteed to be P310- (probably all 8).

The 9th sample had 393=14 and 461=12, so it was likely a P310+. This 9th sample came from north Pakistan.

Figure 3 in this Kivilsild et al (2003) study for the supporting figures on M269 among the various groups studied. 13 of 35 Lambadi in Andhra Pradesh were M269+, for example. The Lambadi speak Lambadi, which is a branch of Rajasthani, an Indo-European language.

It is interesting that R1b1b2 was the most frequent y haplogroup among the Lambadi men sampled. Of 35 Lambadi tested, 13 were R1b1b2, and only 3 were R1a. 6 were L1; 6 were C*; 3 were H1; 2 were J2*; 1 was F*; and 1 was P*.

Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%, fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India

Thats very interesting

Kambo
05-20-2018, 08:19 PM
Well, because it's probably tied to ANE ancestry the same way R1 is with the steppe so there's no surprise that it's found in Central Asia/Siberia where you find an abundance of ANE-related ancestry to this day and, well, Iran-Neolithic farmers, like the Hotu-Cave Hunter-Gatherer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves) before them, also carry substantial ANE-related ancestry that probably rolled into the Iranian Plateau from Central-Asia at some point and brought in R2, it's what mainly differentiates Epipaleolithic/Neolithic Iranians and Caucasians from their contemporaries in the Levant and Anatolia who didn't really have any ANE-related ancestry.



Random founder-effects? It doesn't have to be some early Indo-Iranian lineage simply because it's common among North-Indian Brahmins...

"Probably" is not an answer, only an opinion, a conjecture.

There are only a handful of Y-haplos amongst Brahmins. Each has to be accounted for, and associated with a timeline.

"Founder-effect" is over-rated. Lazy thinkers resort to it whenever they don't want to look at a problem.

bmoney
05-21-2018, 02:27 AM
Is there a spreadsheet showing the results of those Swat valley samples

Parasar posted it in another thread:

I6891 500-300 BCE Saidu Sharif, Swat Valley Pakistan 34.75 72.35 M R5a2 R1a1a1b

I7725 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M M65a1 E1b1b1b2
I1799 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M T2a1b E1b1b1b2
I8195 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2
I8194 1100-900 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M R30a1b H1a1a
I3261 1200-800 BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. DE
I1992 1195-978 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M H2a2 E1a
I6899 1044-830 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. E1b1b1b2
I6900 1400-1126 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. E1b1b1b2
I1985 1192-939 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M E1b1b1b2a
I3262 976-832 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M H14a E1b1b1b2a
I6197 1200-800 BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa Province M M65a A0-T
I6194 1376-1041 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M U8b1a CT
I1799 1044-922 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M T2a1b E1b1b1b2

I8246 970-550 BCE Aligrama Pakistan 34.767667 72.344693 M .. G2a2a
I8245 970-550 BCE Aligrama Pakistan M .. R2a3a2b2b1
I6548 1000-800 BCE Barikot Pakistan 30.4 72.12 M H20a H1a1

I6549 167-46 calBCE Butkara Pakistan M M30b J1
I6550 41 calBCE - 57 calCE Butkara Pakistan M U2a J1

I5396 904-817 calBCE Katelai Pakistan M U4d J2a1
I5399 1000-800 BCE Katelai Pakistan M J1d R2a3a

I10001 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan M R30b1 L1a
I10974 900-800 BCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M .. L1a
I8998 1000-800 BCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M W3a1b R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2
I8997 900-800 BCE M W3a1b R2a
I6553 971-834 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M U2e1'2'3 C1b1a1a1
I6555 906-820 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M M4 L1a
I5400 927-831 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M M5a Q1b2
I6554 831-796 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M T2g1 L1a

poi
05-21-2018, 02:43 AM
Parasar posted it in another thread:

I6891 500-300 BCE Saidu Sharif, Swat Valley Pakistan 34.75 72.35 M R5a2 R1a1a1b

I7725 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M M65a1 E1b1b1b2
I1799 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M T2a1b E1b1b1b2
I8195 1200-800 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2
I8194 1100-900 BCE Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, Swat M R30a1b H1a1a
I3261 1200-800 BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. DE
I1992 1195-978 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M H2a2 E1a
I6899 1044-830 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. E1b1b1b2
I6900 1400-1126 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M .. E1b1b1b2
I1985 1192-939 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M E1b1b1b2a
I3262 976-832 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M H14a E1b1b1b2a
I6197 1200-800 BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa Province M M65a A0-T
I6194 1376-1041 cal BCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M U8b1a CT
I1799 1044-922 calBCE Swat District , Khyber-Pakhtunkwa M T2a1b E1b1b1b2

I8246 970-550 BCE Aligrama Pakistan 34.767667 72.344693 M .. G2a2a
I8245 970-550 BCE Aligrama Pakistan M .. R2a3a2b2b1
I6548 1000-800 BCE Barikot Pakistan 30.4 72.12 M H20a H1a1

I6549 167-46 calBCE Butkara Pakistan M M30b J1
I6550 41 calBCE - 57 calCE Butkara Pakistan M U2a J1

I5396 904-817 calBCE Katelai Pakistan M U4d J2a1
I5399 1000-800 BCE Katelai Pakistan M J1d R2a3a

I10001 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan M R30b1 L1a
I10974 900-800 BCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M .. L1a
I8998 1000-800 BCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M W3a1b R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2
I8997 900-800 BCE M W3a1b R2a
I6553 971-834 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M U2e1'2'3 C1b1a1a1
I6555 906-820 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M M4 L1a
I5400 927-831 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M M5a Q1b2
I6554 831-796 calBCE Loebanr 1 Pakistan M T2g1 L1a

Bro, are those E1bs in the Global25 datasheet?

bmoney
05-21-2018, 03:12 AM
Bro, are those E1bs in the Global25 datasheet?

Should be bro

They are all Udegram I believe

parasar
05-21-2018, 03:40 AM
Parasar posted it in another thread:

...

A more comprehensive listing for the overall picture with emphasis on R1a:

"there are no shifts in Steppe related ancestry until the late Bronze Age and the sample dated to 1455 BCE." [Parkhai_LBA_o 1497-1413 calBCE]


West_Siberia_N likely R (R1a possible)
I5766 U5a2b2 .. West_Siberia_N 4230-3983 calBCE Russia
I1958 U5a1 .. West_Siberia_N 4723-4558 calBCE Russia
I1960 U2e1'2'3 .. West_Siberia_N 6361-6071 calBCE Russia

Russia (no R1a portion)
I6713 .. .. Afanasievo 3000-2000 BCE Russia
I6715 .. .. Afanasievo 3300-2500 BCE Russia
I3388 U5a1d2b .. Afanasievo 2900-2600 BCE Russia
I3950 U5b2a1a Q1a2 Afanasievo 2878-2636 calBCE Russia
I3952 U5a1a1 R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 2866-2579 calBCE Russia
I3954 U4b3 .. Afanasievo 2872-2625 calBCE Russia
I1829 J2a2a .. Afanasievo 3316-2915 calBCE Russia
I6711 .. R1b1a1a2a Afanasievo 2950-2650 BCE Russia
I3387 J2a2a R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 2950-2600 BCE Russia
I6712 .. R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 2950-2650 BCE Russia
I5269 T2a1a R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3016-2899 calBCE Russia
I5270 T1a1 R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3322-2939 calBCE Russia
I5271 T2a1a .. Afanasievo 3013-2901 calBCE Russia
I5277 U4b3 R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3264-2929 calBCE Russia
I5272 U5a1g .. Afanasievo 3003-2887 calBCE Russia
I2069 K1b2a .. Afanasievo 3331-2922 calBCE Russia
I5273 T2a1a R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3011-2887 calBCE Russia
I5278 U5a1a1 R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3084-2911 calBCE Russia
I5279 U4d1 R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3012-2897 calBCE Russia
I2071 H6a1b R1b1a1a2a2 Afanasievo 3331-2704 calBCE Russia
I3951 U5b2a1a .. Afanasievo_1d.rel.I3950 2879-2639 calBCE (416525 BP, PSUAMS-1956) Russia
I6714 .. Q1a2 2900-2600 BCE Russia
I3949 U5a1d2b Q1a2 2837-2498 calBCE Russia

I0944 .. .. Petrovka 2023-1744 calBCE (354052 BP, AA-90949) Russia
I0945 U5a1i1 .. Petrovka 2200-1700 BCE Russia
I0946 U2e2a1d .. Petrovka 2130-1765 calBCE (358455 BP, AA-90948) Russia
I6294 U5a1g R1b1a1a2a2 Poltavka 2876-2666 calBCE (416020 BP, PSUAMS-2956) Russia
I7671 U5a1b R1b1a1a2a2 Poltavka 2800-2000 BCE Russia
I0244 U2e1a1 .. Potapovka 2341-1981 calBCE (AA-53806) Russia
I7489 H2a1e .. Potapovka 2200-1900 BCE Russia
I6048 H7b .. Preobrazhenka_MLBA 1729-1563 calBCE (335020 BP, PSUAMS-2918) Russia

Russia (R1a portion) Srubnaya, Sintashta
I0419 U2e1 R1a1a1b2a2a Potapovka 2200-1900 BCE Russia
I0246 C R1 Potapovka 2469-1928 calBCE (3760100 BP, AA-12568) Russia
I0422 T1a1 .. Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0232 U5a1f2 R1a1a1b2 Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0430 H3g R1a1a1b2a2a Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0431 H2b .. Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0361 H5b R1a1a Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0358 H6a1a .. Srubnaya 1906-1631 calBCE (345556 BP, AA-47808) Russia
I0359 U5a2a1 .. Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia
I0424 T2b4 R1a1a1b2a Srubnaya 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0360 U5a1 R1a1 Srubnaya_1d.rel.I0354 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0421 H3g .. Srubnaya_1d.rel.I0430 1850-1600 BCE Russia
I0354 U5a1 .. Srubnaya_o 2014-1692 calBCE (351756 BP, AA-47809) Russia

I0233 U5a1 R1 Srubnaya 1850-1200 BCE Russia

I1019 W1c R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1003 U4b1a1a1 I2a1a1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0942 H2b R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0986 H1 R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0989 H1 R1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1006 U5a1c R1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1082 U5b2a1a2 R1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1084 U2e1'2 R1a1a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1008 T1a1 R1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1086 T1a1 R1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1065 H6a1a R1a1a1b Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1018 T2e2 R1a1a1b2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1055 U2e1 R1a1a1b2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1011 U5a2+16294 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1012 U2e1h R1b1 Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0937 U5a1b1f .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0938 H2a1a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0939 T2e2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0943 J1b1a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1013 K1a+195 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1022 U5a1a2a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1024 H2b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1060 T2b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1061 H5a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1062 K1a26 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1063 U4a .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1088 J1c2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1089 U5b2a1a2 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1090 T1a1 .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I0982 J2b1d .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I7480 K2a5b .. Sintashta_MLBA 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1064 H6a1a R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1879-1694 calBCE (346020 BP, PSUAMS-2102) Russia
I1053 H2b R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1922-1763 calBCE (352025 BP, PSUAMS-2064) Russia
I1027 T1a1 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 1962-1775 calBCE (355025 BP, PSUAMS-1954) Russia
I1029 J1c5a .. Sintashta_MLBA 1973-1772 calBCE Russia
I0984 T2e2 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA 2023-1782 calBCE Russia
I7670 J1c1b1a R1b1a1a2 Sintashta_MLBA 2200-1800 BCE Russia
I1010 T1a1 P1 Sintashta_MLBA_1d.rel.I1086 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0940 U2e1h .. Sintashta_MLBA_1st.degree.rel.I1055 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0985 U2e2a .. Sintashta_MLBA_1st.degree.rel.I1084 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I1054 H2b R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA_brother.of.I1053 1891-1746 calBCE Russia
I1007 U2e1'2'3 Q1a Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0980 H13a1a R1b1a1a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE Russia
I0983 J1b1a3 .. Sintashta_MLBA_o1 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1017 H6b Q1a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o1 1929-1753 calBCE (352030 BP, Beta-436294) Russia
I1057 U5a1 R1a1a1b2a2a Sintashta_MLBA_o2 1949-1772 calBCE (354025 BP, PSUAMS-1953) Russia
I1020 J2b1 R1b1a1a2a2 Sintashta_MLBA_o2 2012-1774 calBCE (355531 BP, OxA-12533) Russia
I1056 U5a1 R1a1a1b Sintashta_MLBA_o2_brother.of.I1057 1886-1695 calBCE Russia
I1058 U5a1 R1a1a Sintashta_MLBA_o2_brother.of.I1057 1906-1743 calBCE Russia
I0941 U5a1 R1b1a1a Sintashta_MLBA_o3 2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Russia
I1028 U2e1'2 R1b1a1a1 Sintashta_MLBA_o3 1878-1664 calBCE (344030 BP, Beta-436293) Russia

[B]Krasnoyarsk/Andronovo (R1a)
I1853 H2b R Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1611-1503 calBCE (327020 BP, PSUAMS-2437) Russia
I1821 T1a1 R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1612-1506 calBCE (327520 BP, PSUAMS-2435) Russia
I1856 K1a26 R1a1a1b2a2a Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1685-1531 calBCE (333025 BP, PSUAMS-2067) Russia
I1851 H2b R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1611-1459 calBCE (325520 BP, PSUAMS-2436) Russia
I1828 K1a4b .. Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1611-1503 calBCE (327020 BP, PSUAMS-2960) Russia
I1852 T2b .. Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1623-1518 calBCE (329520 BP, PSUAMS-2865) Russia
I3389 H27 R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I3392 U2e2a4 R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I6718 .. R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 2000-900 BCE Russia
I3396 T2b R1a1a1b1a2b1 Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I3391 U5b2c R1a1a1b2 Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I3394 U4a1 R1a1a1b2a Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I3390 U5a2a .. Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I3395 T1a1 .. Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I6716 .. .. Krasnoyarsk_MLBA 2000-900 BCE Russia
I3393 U5b2b R1a1a1b Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_father_or_son.I6718 1900-1400 BCE Russia
I6717 .. Q1a2 Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_o 2000-900 BCE Russia

I3767 U5b2b R1a1a1b2 1869-1665 calBCE (343020 BP, PSUAMS-2496) Kazakhstan
I4773 U5a1a2a R1a Aktogai_MLBA 1618-1513 calBCE Kazakhstan
I4774 J1c5a R1a1a1b Aktogai_MLBA 1615-1509 calBCE Kazakhstan
I4265 N1a1a1 R1a1a1b2 Aktogai_MLBA 1640-1527 calBCE Kazakhstan
I4264 T1a1 .. Aktogai_MLBA 1691-1528 calBCE (333530 BP, PSUAMS-2124) Kazakhstan

I3447 R3 .. Dali_EBA 2850-2495 calBCE (407525 BP, PSUAMS-2071) Kazakhstan
I0507 U5a1a2a R1a1a1b2a2a Dali_MLBA 1871-1636 calBCE (342030 BP, Beta-391199) Kazakhstan
I1931 J2b1a2 .. Dali_MLBA 1495-1300 calBCE (313030 BP, Beta-391198) Kazakhstan
I3448 .. .. Dali_MLBA 1871-1636 calBCE (342030 BP, Beta-391199) Kazakhstan

I6823 T1a1 .. Alpamsa_MLBA_Alakul 1700-1400 BCE Kazakhstan


I4567 U4a1 R Kairan_MLBA 1743-1631 calBCE (339020 BP, PSUAMS-2545) Kazakhstan
I4568 T1a1 R1 Kairan_MLBA 1745-1636 calBCE (339520 BP, PSUAMS-2546) Kazakhstan
I4318 J2b1a2 .. Kairan_MLBA 1767-1658 calBCE (341520 BP, PSUAMS-2961) Kazakhstan
I4776 U5b2a1a2 .. Kairan_MLBA 1767-1658 calBCE (341520 BP, PSUAMS-2912) Kazakhstan
I4779 H27 .. Kairan_MLBA 1745-1636 calBCE (339520 BP, PSUAMS-2939) Kazakhstan
I5761 T1a1 .. Kairan_MLBA 1931-1772 calBCE (353020 BP, PSUAMS-3099) Kazakhstan
I4566 Z1 .. Kairan_MLBA_o 1729-1563 calBCE (335020 BP, PSUAMS-2991) Kazakhstan
I4780 U2e1b .. Kairan_MLBA_o 1754-1642 calBCE (341020 BP, PSUAMS-2913) Kazakhstan
I4319 .. BT Kairan_MLBA_o_LC 1746-1630 calBCE (339525 BP, PSUAMS-2543) Kazakhstan
I6708 .. C2b Kanai_MBA 2193-2031 calBCE (370520 BP, PSUAMS-2916) Kazakhstan
I4262 K1a26 R1a1a1b2a2a Karagash_MLBA 1881-1695 calBCE (346525 BP, PSUAMS-2122) Kazakhstan
I4263 U5a1d2b R1a1a1b2a2a Karagash_MLBA 1861-1639 calBCE Kazakhstan
I4778 H7b R1a1a1b2a2a Karagash_MLBA_father.or.son.I4262 1728-1546 calBCE Kazakhstan

I4322 U2e1 R1a1 Kazakh_Mys_MLBA 1611-1503 calBCE (327020 BP, PSUAMS-2544) Kazakhstan
I4783 H1b R1a1a1b Kazakh_Mys_MLBA 1610-1454 calBCE (325020 BP, PSUAMS-2612) Kazakhstan
I4321 J1c2 .. Kazakh_Mys_MLBA 1640-1527 calBCE (331020 BP, PSUAMS-2962) Kazakhstan
I4782 U5b2b .. Kazakh_Mys_MLBA 1736-1621 calBCE (337020 BP, PSUAMS-2915) Kazakhstan


I3770 T1a1 R1a1a1b2a2a Zevakinskiy_BA 2132-1940 calBCE (364525 BP, PSUAMS-2079) Kazakhstan
I4295 A2 R1a1a1b Zevakinskiy_LBA 1211-1056 calBCE (293520 BP, PSUAMS-2515) Kazakhstan
I4267 I2 R1a1a1b2a2a Zevakinskiy_LBA 1193-1013 calBCE Kazakhstan
I3976 U5b2a1a2 Q1a2a1c Zevakinskiy_LBA 1191-1010 calBCE Kazakhstan
I3753 K1c1 R1a1a1b Zevakinskiy_LBA 1111-941 calBCE (286020 BP, PSUAMS-2540) Kazakhstan
I3977 U5b2b R1b1a1a1 Zevakinskiy_LBA 1126-1000 calBCE (288520 BP, PSUAMS-2507) Kazakhstan
I3772 W3a1 .. Zevakinskiy_LBA 1025-901 calBCE (281025 BP, PSUAMS-2080) Kazakhstan
I3763 U2 R1a1a1b2a2a Zevakinskiy_MLBA 1609-1443 calBCE (324025 BP, PSUAMS-2502) Kazakhstan


I4323 U2e1'2'3 .. Kyzlbulak_MLBA1 1741-1627 calBCE (338520 BP, PSUAMS-2963) Kazakhstan
I4784 G2a1e Q1a2b2 Kyzlbulak_MLBA2 1618-1513 calBCE (329020 BP, PSUAMS-2613) Kazakhstan
I6788 .. .. Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 1862-1664 calBCE (342520 BP, PSUAMS-2921) Kazakhstan
I6800 .. .. Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 1767-1658 calBCE (341520 BP, PSUAMS-2942) Kazakhstan


I6789 .. R1a1a1b Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1877-1693 calBCE Kazakhstan
I6793 .. R1a1a1b Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1745-1636 calBCE Kazakhstan
I6794 .. R1a1a1b Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1876-1688 calBCE Kazakhstan
I6790 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1872-1684 calBCE (343520 BP, PSUAMS-2980) Kazakhstan
I6791 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1862-1664 calBCE (342520 BP, PSUAMS-2923) Kazakhstan
I6796 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1882-1748 calBCE (348520 BP, PSUAMS-2928) Kazakhstan
I6797 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul 1872-1684 calBCE (343520 BP, PSUAMS-2929) Kazakhstan
I6792 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul_o 1876-1691 calBCE (345020 BP, PSUAMS-2924) Kazakhstan
I6795 .. .. Maitan_MLBA_Alakul_o 1749-1642 calBCE (340520 BP, PSUAMS-2927) Kazakhstan
I3769 T1a1 .. Molaly_MLBA 1400-1000 BCE Kazakhstan
I4791 J1b1a1 R1a Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1609-1450 calBCE (324520 BP, PSUAMS-2548) Kazakhstan
I4790 W1c R1a1a1b2a2a Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1527-1439 calBCE (322020 BP, PSUAMS-2547) Kazakhstan
I4789 U5a1a1 .. Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1617-1498 calBCE (327025 BP, PSUAMS-2964) Kazakhstan
I7060 T1a1 .. Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1600-1400 BCE Kazakhstan
I3861 U4a1 .. Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1872-1684 calBCE (343520 BP, PSUAMS-3115) Kazakhstan
I3788 U4b1a1a R1a1a1b2a2a Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA 1683-1532 calBCE Kazakhstan
I3860 R3 R1a1a1b2a2a Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_o1 1734-1617 calBCE Kazakhstan
I7059 J1b1a1+146 .. Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_o2 1600-1400 BCE Kazakhstan

I6707 .. .. Unknown_MLBA 1596-1439 calBCE (323020 BP, PSUAMS-2978) Kazakhstan

I6799 .. R1a1a1b2a2a Satan_MLBA_Alakul 1876-1688 calBCE (344520 BP, PSUAMS-2981) Kazakhstan

I3864 R3 .. Solyanka_MLBA 1728-1546 calBCE (334520 BP, PSUAMS-3183) Kazakhstan

I4787 H3g R1a1a1b2a2a Taldysay_MLBA1 1379-1196 calBCE (301520 BP, PSUAMS-2614) Kazakhstan
I4794 C4 J2a1h2 Taldysay_MLBA2 1600-1400 BCE Kazakhstan

I4153 U5b2b R1a1a1b Kashkarchi_BA 1200-1000 BCE Uzbekistan
I4255 N1a1a1 R1a1a1b Kashkarchi_BA 1200-1000 BCE Uzbekistan


IRAN (no R1a)
I2312_d K2a E1b1a1a1c2b1 Belt_Cave_Mesolithic_LC 12000-8000 BCE Iran

S8724.E1.L1 I1 J2a1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1 2650-2550 BCE Iran
S8725.E1.L1 J1 J2a1 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA1 2800 BCE Iran
S8726.E1.L1 U2c1 J2a1h Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 3200-3000 BCE Iran
S8728.E1.L1 R7 J2a Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3 2550-2450 BCE Iran


I1947 R2 R2a Ganj_Dareh_N 8210-7845 calBCE (886030 BP, Beta-432800) Iran
I1954 R2 R2a Ganj_Dareh_N 8330-8255 calBCE (900040 BP, Beta-436170) Iran
I7527 U7a .. Ganj_Dareh_N 8200-7700 BCE Iran
I1946 .. R2a Ganj_Dareh_N_father.of.I1947_father.of.I1952 8250-7850 BCE Iran
I1952 R R2a Ganj_Dareh_N_son.of.I1946_brother.of.I1947 8219-7761 calBCE Iran

I4243 I1b .. Hajji_Firuz_BA 2465-2286 calBCE (387525 BP, PSUAMS-2113) Iran
I2328 K1b1a CT Hajji_Firuz_C 6013-5898 calBCE (707530 BP, PSUAMS-2345) Iran
I4241 K1a3a J2b Hajji_Firuz_C 6016-5899 calBCE (708030 BP, PSUAMS-2163) Iran
I4349 U1a4 J2b Hajji_Firuz_C 5887-5724 calBCE (691540 BP, PSUAMS-2126) Iran
I2327 K1a17a R1b1a1a2a2 Hajji_Firuz_C 5900-5500 BCE Iran
I2323 K1a20 .. Hajji_Firuz_C 6060-5851 calBCE (709050 BP, Poz-81115) Iran
I4351 HV9 .. Hajji_Firuz_C 6056-5894 calBCE (710045 BP, PSUAMS-2151) Iran

I2927 .. J Tepe_Hissar_C 2575-2350 calBCE (397030 BP, PSUAMS-1916) Iran
I2337 I1 J2a1h2 Tepe_Hissar_C 3641-3519 calBCE (478030 BP, PSUAMS-1919) Iran
I2923 W3b L2 Tepe_Hissar_C 2878-2636 calBCE (416025 BP, PSUAMS-1915) Iran
I2512 HV T Tepe_Hissar_C 2916-2876 calBCE (426525 BP, PSUAMS-1914) Iran
I2514 W3b T1a Tepe_Hissar_C 2474-2307 calBCE (391525 BP, PSUAMS-1918) Iran
I2513 W3b .. Tepe_Hissar_C 2849-2492 calBCE (407025 BP, PSUAMS-2229) Iran
I2918 U7 .. Tepe_Hissar_C 3702-3536 calBCE (485030 BP, PSUAMS-2228) Iran
I2921 J1d .. Tepe_Hissar_C 3656-3526 calBCE (482030 BP, PSUAMS-1912) Iran
I2922 .. .. Tepe_Hissar_C 2197-2027 calBCE (370525 BP, PSUAMS-2227) Iran
I2924 U5b2a1b .. Tepe_Hissar_C 2881-2666 calBCE (417025 BP, PSUAMS-2262) Iran
I2925 X2 .. Tepe_Hissar_C 2881-2666 calBCE (417025 BP, PSUAMS-1913) Iran
I2928 .. .. Tepe_Hissar_C 2858-2505 calBCE (409525 BP, PSUAMS-1917) Iran
I2335 U1a'c H3 Tepe_Hissar_C_LC 3639-3385 calBCE (476025 BP, PSUAMS-2346) Iran

I1949 .. R1 Ganj_Dareh_N 8241-7962 calBCE (891540 BP, PSUAMS-2261) Iran
I1945 J1 R2a Ganj_Dareh_N 8000-7700 BCE Iran
I1944 R2 .. Ganj_Dareh_N 8000-7700 BCE Iran
I1951 HV* .. Ganj_Dareh_N 8202-7681 calBCE (880050 BP, Poz-81109) Iran


TURAN (no R1a)
Darra.I.Kur_d H2a R1b1a1a2a1a Darra_i_kur_MBA 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

I4156 HV G Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan
I4899 R0 J Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan
I4157 .. J2a Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan
I4159 T1 J2a1 Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan
I5604 K1a1 L1a Bustan_BA 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) Uzbekistan
I5605 W6 .. Bustan_BA 1600-1300 BCE Uzbekistan


I4160 U2e1 .. Dashti_Kozy_BA 1700 BCE Tajikistan
I4257 T2a1b1 .. Dashti_Kozy_BA 1518-1434 calBCE (321520 BP, PSUAMS-2510) Tajikistan
I4258 T2b .. Dashti_Kozy_BA 1620-1506 calBCE (328525 BP, PSUAMS-2121) Tajikistan


I4315 R2 R1b1 Dzharkutan1_BA 1609-1465 calBCE (325515 BP, PSUAMS-2518) Uzbekistan
I4161 HV .. Dzharkutan1_BA 2100-1800 BCE Uzbekistan
I4163 J1b3 .. Dzharkutan1_BA 1611-1453 calBCE (325025 BP, PSUAMS-2112) Uzbekistan
I4312 HV2 .. Dzharkutan1_BA 1736-1621 calBCE (337020 BP, PSUAMS-2516) Uzbekistan
I4313 U3a'c .. Dzharkutan1_BA 1513-1431 calBCE (321020 BP, PSUAMS-2517) Uzbekistan
I7411 .. .. Dzharkutan1_BA 1686-1534 calBCE (333520 BP, PSUAMS-3227) Uzbekistan
I7412 .. .. Dzharkutan1_BA 1749-1642 calBCE (340520 BP, PSUAMS-3228) Uzbekistan
I4314 H .. Dzharkutan1_BA_LC 1885-1701 calBCE (348025 BP, PSUAMS-2800) Uzbekistan
I4901 U5a2a .. Dzharkutan2_BA 2100-1800 BCE Uzbekistan
I5608 I4a .. Dzharkutan2_BA 2100-1800 BCE Uzbekistan


S8527.E1.L1 .. I2a2a2a Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8524.E1.L1 U7a J Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8504.E1.L1 T2d2 J1 Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8529.E1.L1 U Q Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8526.E1.L1 J1d6 R Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8510.E1.L1 I1b .. Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8528.E1.L1 I1b .. Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8530.E1.L1 I1 .. Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8532.E1.L1 .. .. Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8534.E1.L1 J1b1a1 .. Geoksiur_EN 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8505.E1.L1 H J1 Geoksiur_EN.1d.rel.of.S8502 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
S8502.E1.L1 U7a .. Geoksiur_EN.1d.rel.of.S8502 5000-2000 BCE Turkmenistan
I6119 J1c10 E1b1a1a1c2c3c Gonur1_BA 2130-1948 calBCE (365020 BP, PSUAMS-2840) Turkmenistan
I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (358020 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan
I2128 .. J Gonur1_BA 2198-2036 calBCE (372020 BP, PSUAMS-2316) Turkmenistan
I1784 U7 J1 Gonur1_BA 2201-2031 calBCE (372030 BP, Poz-83485) Turkmenistan
I2087 .. R Gonur1_BA 2196-2034 calBCE (371520 BP, PSUAMS-2335) Turkmenistan
I1781 .. T Gonur1_BA 2009-1772 calBCE (355030 BP, PSUAMS-2065) Turkmenistan
I1782 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2288-2142 calBCE (378520 BP, PSUAMS-2309) Turkmenistan
I1787 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2139-1981 calBCE (368020 BP, PSUAMS-2310) Turkmenistan
I1788 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2127-1905 calBCE (363030 BP, PSUAMS-2066) Turkmenistan
I1790 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2134-1957 calBCE (366020 BP, PSUAMS-2311) Turkmenistan
I1793 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2190-2029 calBCE (370020 BP, PSUAMS-2312) Turkmenistan
I2116 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2118-1883 calBCE (360535 BP, Poz-83490) Turkmenistan
I2121 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2203-2041 calBCE (373520 BP, PSUAMS-2314) Turkmenistan
I2125 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2136-1977 calBCE (367020 BP, PSUAMS-2315) Turkmenistan
I3374 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2125-1945 calBCE (364520 BP, PSUAMS-2317) Turkmenistan
I6124 H14a .. Gonur1_BA 2193-2031 calBCE (370520 BP, PSUAMS-2804) Turkmenistan
I6217 .. .. Gonur1_BA 2285-2135 calBCE (377020 BP, PSUAMS-2806) Turkmenistan
I6118 J1b1a3 A Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I6122 N1d A Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I6310 I5a A Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I6318 H A Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I7173 .. A Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I6120 R2 BT Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I7101 .. BT Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I6312 R2 CT Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I7170 .. CT Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I6127 W6 J Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I3365 U2b2 .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I6125 W3b .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I6126 W .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I6218 .. .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I7102 .. .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I7171 .. .. Gonur1_BA_LC 2500-1700 BCE Turkmenistan
I1792 .. J Gonur1_BA_o 2458-2202 calBCE (384035 BP, Poz-83487) Turkmenistan
I1783 .. .. Gonur1_BA_o 2275-2024 calBCE (372535 BP, Poz-83484) Turkmenistan
I1789 .. P Gonur1_BA_o2 2277-2030 calBCE (373535 BP, Poz-83486) Turkmenistan
I2122 .. .. Gonur1_BA_o2 2139-1981 calBCE (368020 BP, PSUAMS-2152) Turkmenistan
I6117 T1a1 A Gonur1_BA_sibling.I1781_LC 2500-1600 BCE Turkmenistan
I2123 .. .. Gonur2_BA 2452-2140 calBCE (381535 BP, Poz-83491) Turkmenistan

I6671 HV14 .. Parkhai_EBA 3000-2200 BCE Turkmenistan
S6670.E1.L1 .. G Parkhai_EBA_LC 2500 BCE Turkmenistan
I4634 I1b .. Parkhai_EN 3500 BCE Turkmenistan
I4635 HV13 .. Parkhai_EN 3500 BCE Turkmenistan
I6669 HV2 .. Parkhai_EN 3082-2909 calBCE (436525 BP, PSUAMS-2950) Turkmenistan
I4259 HV13 .. Parkhai_EN 3307-2928 calBCE (442520 BP, PSUAMS-2799) Turkmenistan
I6668 H29 .. Parkhai_LBA 1600-1000 BCE Turkmenistan
I6667 HV2a .. Parkhai_LBA_o 1497-1413 calBCE (317020 BP, PSUAMS-2998) Turkmenistan
I6674 U1a1 .. Parkhai_MBA 2338-2039 calBCE (377540 BP, PSUAMS-2951) Turkmenistan

I7420 .. G2a2a Sappali_Tepe_BA 2000-1600 BCE Uzbekistan
I7421 .. J2a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1931-1767 calBCE (352525 BP, PSUAMS-3120) Uzbekistan
I7494 .. J2a1 Sappali_Tepe_BA 2010-1883 calBCE (357520 BP, PSUAMS-3230) Uzbekistan
I4285 U7a3 L1a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) Uzbekistan
I7419 .. R2a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1881-1701 calBCE (347520 BP, PSUAMS-3229) Uzbekistan
I7492 .. R2a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1971-1782 calBCE (356020 BP, PSUAMS-3121) Uzbekistan
I4286 I1c .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 1886-1756 calBCE (350020 BP, PSUAMS-2165) Uzbekistan
I4288 W4a .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 2000-1600 BCE Uzbekistan
I4289 U1a'c .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 1931-1767 calBCE (352525 BP, PSUAMS-2125) Uzbekistan
I7414 .. .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 2031-1915 calBCE (361520 BP, PSUAMS-3106) Uzbekistan
I7416 .. .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 1948-1777 calBCE (354520 BP, PSUAMS-3117) Uzbekistan
I7495 .. .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 1971-1782 calBCE (356020 BP, PSUAMS-3122) Uzbekistan
I7542 .. .. Sappali_Tepe_BA 1885-1752 calBCE (349520 BP, PSUAMS-3231) Uzbekistan
I7493 .. Q1b2 Sappali_Tepe_BA_o 2000-1600 BCE Uzbekistan

I4290 .. .. Sarazm_EN 3500 BCE Tajikistan
I4910 J1d .. Sarazm_EN 3636-3521 calBCE (476520 BP, PSUAMS-2624) Tajikistan


I6675 W3b R2a Sumbar_LBA 1600-1000 BCE Turkmenistan

I4087 W3a1 R2a Tepe_Anau_EN 4000-3000 BCE Turkmenistan
I4085 H13a2a R2a3a Tepe_Anau_EN 4000-3000 BCE Turkmenistan
I4086 U1a4 .. Tepe_Anau_EN 4000-3000 BCE Turkmenistan



Pakistan Iron Age (no R1a)

S7725.E1.L1 M65a1 E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8191.E1.L1 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8195.E1.L1 U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8194.E1.L1 R30a1b H1a1a Udegram_IA 1100-900 BCE Pakistan
S8190.E1.L1 U7a .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8192.E1.L1 U1a1a .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8193.E1.L1 M30+16234 .. Udegram_IA 1372-1027 calBCE Pakistan
I3261 .. DE Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I1992 H2a2 E1a Udegram_IA 1195-978 calBCE (289030 BP, Beta-428665) Pakistan
I6899 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1044-830 cal BCE (278545 BP, CEDAD LTL13328A) Pakistan
I6900 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1400-1126 cal BCE (3018 45 BP, CEDAD LTL13327A) Pakistan
I1985 M E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA 1192-939 calBCE (288030 BP, Beta-428667) Pakistan
I6198 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6897 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6901 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6195 U4c1a .. Udegram_IA 1011-909 calBCE (281020 BP, PSUAMS-2841) Pakistan
I1796 .. .. Udegram_IA 992-830 calBCE (276030 BP, Beta-428664) Pakistan
I1994 W3a1 .. Udegram_IA 1027-848 calBCE (280030 BP, Beta-428666) Pakistan
I3260 U1a1 .. Udegram_IA_1d.rel.I6900 921-831 calBCE (274020 BP, PSUAMS-2798) Pakistan
I3262 H14a E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA_father.or.son.I1799 976-832 calBCE Pakistan
I6197 M65a A0-T Udegram_IA_LC 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6194 U8b1a CT Udegram_IA_LC 1376-1041 cal BCE (2969 45 BP, CEDAD LTL14411A) Pakistan
I1799 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA_son.I13262 1044-922 calBCE Pakistan


I6557 U2e1 .. Arkotkila_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6548 H20a H1a1 Barikot_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6545 J1b1b .. Barikot_IA 921-831 calBCE (274020 BP, PSUAMS-2786) Pakistan
I6546 M65a .. Barikot_IA 974-836 calBCE (276020 BP, PSUAMS-2787) Pakistan
I6547 U8b1a1 .. Barikot_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan


I5396 U4d J2a1 Katelai_IA 904-817 calBCE (271520 BP, PSUAMS-2790) Pakistan
I5399 J1d R2a3a Katelai_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I5397 M35b .. Katelai_IA 968-833 calBCE (275020 BP, PSUAMS-2791) Pakistan
I5398 Z3a1a .. Katelai_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan

S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
S8998.E1.L1 W3a1b R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
S8997.E1.L1 W3a1b R2a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6553 U2e1'2'3 C1b1a1a1 Loebanr_IA 971-834 calBCE (275520 BP, PSUAMS-2795) Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (272020 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I5400 M5a Q1b2 Loebanr_IA 927-831 calBCE (274520 BP, PSUAMS-2793) Pakistan
I10000 U7a .. Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6292 T2g1 .. Loebanr_IA 895-801 calBCE (267520 BP, PSUAMS-2794) Pakistan
I6556 U2c1 .. Loebanr_IA 894-798 calBCE (267020 BP, PSUAMS-2792) Pakistan
S8999.E1.L1 U3b1a1 .. Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (264520 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan

I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan

I8246 .. G2a2a Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan
I8245 .. R2a3a2b2b1 Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan
I8219 .. .. Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan


Pakistan Historical Buddhist Period (R1a)

I6891 R5a2 R1a1a1b Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6888 H .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 1000-500 BCE Pakistan
I6893 H15a1a1 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6894 M30 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6896 .. .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7718.E1.L1 K1b1a1+199 Q1b2 Saidu_Sharif_IA 403-360 calBCE Pakistan
S7719.E1.L1 M52a .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7720.E1.L1 C4a'b'c .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7723.E1.L1 M30d1 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7717.E1.L1 H13a2a .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 406-353 calBCE Pakistan
I2955 R5a2 A Saidu_Sharif_IA_LC 431-381 calBCE (234621 BP, CIRCE DSH-6526) Pakistan
S7722.E1.L1 U2b2 R2a3a2b Saidu_Sharif_IA_o 500-300 BCE Pakistan

I6549 M30b J1 Butkara_IA 167-46 calBCE (208020 BP, PSUAMS-2788) Pakistan
I6550 U2a J1 Butkara_IA 41 calBCE - 57 calCE (199020 BP, PSUAMS-2789) Pakistan
I6551 HV .. Butkara_IA 200 BCE - 100 CE Pakistan
I6552 M30b .. Butkara_IA_mother.I6549 200-0 BCE Pakistan

bol_nat
05-21-2018, 03:56 AM
Pakistan Iron Age (no R1a)

S7725.E1.L1 M65a1 E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8191.E1.L1 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8195.E1.L1 U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8194.E1.L1 R30a1b H1a1a Udegram_IA 1100-900 BCE Pakistan
S8190.E1.L1 U7a .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8192.E1.L1 U1a1a .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8193.E1.L1 M30+16234 .. Udegram_IA 1372-1027 calBCE Pakistan
I3261 .. DE Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I1992 H2a2 E1a Udegram_IA 1195-978 calBCE (289030 BP, Beta-428665) Pakistan
I6899 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1044-830 cal BCE (278545 BP, CEDAD LTL13328A) Pakistan
I6900 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1400-1126 cal BCE (3018 45 BP, CEDAD LTL13327A) Pakistan
I1985 M E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA 1192-939 calBCE (288030 BP, Beta-428667) Pakistan
I6198 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6897 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6901 .. .. Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6195 U4c1a .. Udegram_IA 1011-909 calBCE (281020 BP, PSUAMS-2841) Pakistan
I1796 .. .. Udegram_IA 992-830 calBCE (276030 BP, Beta-428664) Pakistan
I1994 W3a1 .. Udegram_IA 1027-848 calBCE (280030 BP, Beta-428666) Pakistan
I3260 U1a1 .. Udegram_IA_1d.rel.I6900 921-831 calBCE (274020 BP, PSUAMS-2798) Pakistan
I3262 H14a E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA_father.or.son.I1799 976-832 calBCE Pakistan
I6197 M65a A0-T Udegram_IA_LC 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6194 U8b1a CT Udegram_IA_LC 1376-1041 cal BCE (2969 45 BP, CEDAD LTL14411A) Pakistan
I1799 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA_son.I13262 1044-922 calBCE Pakistan


I6557 U2e1 .. Arkotkila_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6548 H20a H1a1 Barikot_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6545 J1b1b .. Barikot_IA 921-831 calBCE (274020 BP, PSUAMS-2786) Pakistan
I6546 M65a .. Barikot_IA 974-836 calBCE (276020 BP, PSUAMS-2787) Pakistan
I6547 U8b1a1 .. Barikot_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan


I5396 U4d J2a1 Katelai_IA 904-817 calBCE (271520 BP, PSUAMS-2790) Pakistan
I5399 J1d R2a3a Katelai_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I5397 M35b .. Katelai_IA 968-833 calBCE (275020 BP, PSUAMS-2791) Pakistan
I5398 Z3a1a .. Katelai_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan

S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
S8998.E1.L1 W3a1b R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
S8997.E1.L1 W3a1b R2a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6553 U2e1'2'3 C1b1a1a1 Loebanr_IA 971-834 calBCE (275520 BP, PSUAMS-2795) Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (272020 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I5400 M5a Q1b2 Loebanr_IA 927-831 calBCE (274520 BP, PSUAMS-2793) Pakistan
I10000 U7a .. Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6292 T2g1 .. Loebanr_IA 895-801 calBCE (267520 BP, PSUAMS-2794) Pakistan
I6556 U2c1 .. Loebanr_IA 894-798 calBCE (267020 BP, PSUAMS-2792) Pakistan
S8999.E1.L1 U3b1a1 .. Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (264520 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan

I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan

I8246 .. G2a2a Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan
I8245 .. R2a3a2b2b1 Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan
I8219 .. .. Aligrama_IA 970-550 BCE Pakistan


Pakistan Historical Buddhist Period (R1a)

I6891 R5a2 R1a1a1b Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6888 H .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 1000-500 BCE Pakistan
I6893 H15a1a1 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6894 M30 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I6896 .. .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7718.E1.L1 K1b1a1+199 Q1b2 Saidu_Sharif_IA 403-360 calBCE Pakistan
S7719.E1.L1 M52a .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7720.E1.L1 C4a'b'c .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7723.E1.L1 M30d1 .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
S7717.E1.L1 H13a2a .. Saidu_Sharif_IA 406-353 calBCE Pakistan
I2955 R5a2 A Saidu_Sharif_IA_LC 431-381 calBCE (234621 BP, CIRCE DSH-6526) Pakistan
S7722.E1.L1 U2b2 R2a3a2b Saidu_Sharif_IA_o 500-300 BCE Pakistan

I6549 M30b J1 Butkara_IA 167-46 calBCE (208020 BP, PSUAMS-2788) Pakistan
I6550 U2a J1 Butkara_IA 41 calBCE - 57 calCE (199020 BP, PSUAMS-2789) Pakistan
I6551 HV .. Butkara_IA 200 BCE - 100 CE Pakistan
I6552 M30b .. Butkara_IA_mother.I6549 200-0 BCE Pakistan

Swat samples from 1200-800BC have steppe ancestry? Or its only found in later samples?

also looks like my maternal haplogroup was found in at least 1 sample.

I5400 M5a Q1b2 Loebanr_IA 927-831 calBCE (274520 BP, PSUAMS-2793) Pakistan

parasar
05-21-2018, 04:13 AM
Swat samples from 1200-800BC have steppe ancestry? Or its only found in later samples?

also looks like my maternal haplogroup was found in at least 1 sample.

I5400 M5a Q1b2 Loebanr_IA 927-831 calBCE (274520 BP, PSUAMS-2793) Pakistan

Most 1200-800BC samples have steppe ancestry.
Y lines Q1b2 and R1b were perhaps the carriers.

In later samples steppe increases along with AASI.

The M lines had a clear expansion post these samples. I had expected N line to be more frequent than M lines on the Indus ("mtDNA N > M, with both present"), but the extent of the skew was a surprise.

bmoney
05-21-2018, 04:36 AM
my ydna is Q1b2. But originally from India. What does it mean?

That your y-line probably came as part of the steppe genetic component as opposed to the Iran_farmer component or the AASI component

It could be Indo-Aryan related or from a later historical migration from the steppe like the Sakas Hunas etc

parasar
05-21-2018, 04:39 AM
my ydna is Q1b2. But originally from India. What does it mean?

Sure it has been in India for a long time. Its current presence in pan-Subcontinental. It is a P-P295 derived line breaking from P-M45 somewhere near the Baikal.

Dr_McNinja
05-22-2018, 02:32 AM
M30b, interesting. I have the results of my mitochondrial testing on FTDNA. I wonder if my family's is related to the Butkara one.

Dr_McNinja
05-22-2018, 02:36 AM
I was mentioning this to my friends. Everyone wants to be Aryan, here I am hoping my paternal line was IVC. The mystery surrounding the Aryans is mostly gone. The IVC is the exotic, cool one now.

poi
05-22-2018, 02:48 AM
M30b, interesting. I have the results of my mitochondrial testing on FTDNA. I wonder if my family's is related to the Butkara one.

Interesting. I only have mtdna from the standard 23andme test and it showed I am M30... nothing downclades, obviously. Do you think going FTDNA's more extensive testing worth it? I am waiting for the whole gemone to be in a few hundred bucks before shelling out more for the tests on myself. Still, I have been purchasing kits for my family members. Most of them think I'm absolutely crazy wasting money on these. They think this is absolute garbage and the whole topic is taboo in my family. So far I have 7 kits (purchased a month ago when 23andme and ANcestry went on sale). 5 of them are collecting dust instead of saliva lol.

bmoney
05-22-2018, 02:49 AM
I was mentioning this to my friends. Everyone wants to be Aryan, here I am hoping my paternal line was IVC. The mystery surrounding the Aryans is mostly gone. The IVC is the exotic, cool one now.

It probably was IVC related or from a later migration from Iran

Both J2b samples found were 7k YBP samples from Hajji Firuz, none were found in Sintashta

poi
05-22-2018, 03:03 AM
I was mentioning this to my friends. Everyone wants to be Aryan, here I am hoping my paternal line was IVC. The mystery surrounding the Aryans is mostly gone. The IVC is the exotic, cool one now.

It would be quite something if the IVC thing turns out to be a direct precursor of the historical South Asian history and not just another deadend. The genes appear to have survived in all of us, with varying degree, but I wonder if IVC culture did. Are these scientific papers( from respectable universities within the last 10 years) on the actual cultural continuity?

poi
05-22-2018, 03:12 AM
Not sure why Aryans were even considered a some sort of master race. IVC/Neolithic Iranians were a much more advanced people. Also according to new research the area between present day Iraq and Indus was most likely the cradle of civilization, they were all connected at one point. Aryans most likely became advanced once they encountred IVC people at some point

Not sure how scientific my line of thinking is , but I think scarcity and the desolate nature of the steppe caused migrations. Why would people from Mesopotamia or the Indus ever want to migrate there? Unless they were escaping some calamity, it sounds natural (to my ears atleast) the migrations would be into to more rich lands rather than to the more desolate ones. And the migrants brought themselves hardy attitudes and religious customs -- that they liked need to survive in the desolate lands -- that eventually helped them take over and succeed. You see that in the modern times as well.

bmoney
05-22-2018, 03:19 AM
Not sure why Aryans were even considered a some sort of master race. IVC/Neolithic Iranians were a much more advanced people. Also according to new research the area between present day Iraq and Indus was most likely the cradle of civilization, they were all connected at one point. Aryans most likely became advanced once they encountred IVC people at some point

They certainly only became a civlization force in SC Asia once they merged with the existing farmer based pop.

I'm sure some level of similarity to this scenario exists in Europe when the pastoralist Steppe overran it but then merged to form an urban based civ

bmoney
05-22-2018, 03:23 AM
It would be quite something if the IVC thing turns out to be a direct precursor of the historical South Asian history and not just another deadend. The genes appear to have survived in all of us, with varying degree, but I wonder if IVC culture did. Are these scientific papers( from respectable universities within the last 10 years) on the actual cultural continuity?

yeah thats baffling, where did the culture go apart from a few features here and there into a largely conservative Indo-Aryan cultural toolkit

Unless it survived in Dravidian culture, which seems the likeliest scenario, it might have culturally largely gone extinct

poi
05-22-2018, 03:36 AM
yeah thats baffling, where did the culture go apart from a few features here and there into a largely conservative Indo-Aryan cultural toolkit

Unless it survived in Dravidian culture, which seems the likeliest scenario, it might have culturally largely gone extinct

Can you list some of those features? I simply dismissed them as overreaches. Like the "swastik" seal and a guy doing "yogi" poses.

poi
05-22-2018, 04:09 AM
Is there any research on what religion did IVC people practice? I have a feeling they must have had west asian type religion. Very different from hinduism

What features in IVC make you think it was west asian? Curious because when I think of IVC's "religion", I think of a content and happy civilization without armies or weaponry that were spending their time on trade and free time on meditation practices lol https://www.google.com/search?q=yogi+indus

Much different from a very war-like west asian antiquity. But I'm very open to other interpretations.

anthroin
05-22-2018, 04:14 AM
yeah thats baffling, where did the culture go apart from a few features here and there into a largely conservative Indo-Aryan cultural toolkit

Unless it survived in Dravidian culture, which seems the likeliest scenario, it might have culturally largely gone extinct

It sometimes looks as if they all just deliberately set fire themselves, to all their cultural belongings for some tragic reason. Not to mention the complete loss of urbanism with no traces whatsoever. Maybe they became angry with the Mesopotamians for some reason lol. For all their West Asian (Iranian) genetic ancestry, they moved further east into the subcontinent and not even some reasonably significant amount of migration seems to have taken place into Mesopotamia after the abandonment of their cities (maybe some very few people moved back to their homelands in Balochistan and Iran).

I believe the only major legacies are fertility religions and motifs and the survival of worship of Mother Goddesses- the Indo-Aryans had female deities like Dawn, Night and of course the Rivers but they appear to be of a different nature compared to somewhat fierce Indian mother goddesses and female deities like Buffalo-Demon Slayer riding on lions and tigers. And this I believe just because Indus Civilisation is similar to other Ancient Near Eastern Civilisations and they seem to have had similar importance of mother goddesses and we don't even know if the deities like these that we do have now are direct Indus survivals or from some other non-Indus cultures of India instead. Both Dravidian and Munda do not seem plausible candidates as even these non-Indus cultures to my mind which is possibly very biased against Dravidian and Munda (Language X anyone? Yep I love that Language X!).

And all this with the note that I have been surprised quite a few times in the past to discover that the stuff which I had been thinking of as having non-Indo-Aryan cultural origins possibly, may actually have had Indo-Aryan cultural origins after all. A lot of problems seem to get instantly solved if Indus = Indo-Aryans on a physical level, actually, though there would still be a lot of new stuff that needs to be explained.

bmoney
05-22-2018, 04:26 AM
Can you list some of those features? I simply dismissed them as overreaches. Like the "swastik" seal and a guy doing "yogi" poses.

Yeah as some of which anthroin posted earlier, off the top of my head:

Shivlinga, Fertility, Mother Goddess, Cow/Buffalos

poi
05-22-2018, 04:34 AM
Yeah as some of which anthroin posted earlier, off the top of my head:

Shivlinga, Fertility, Mother Goddess, Cow/Buffalos

If those are indeed IVC traces, then the IVC cultural impact was huge. Things like Shivalinga, Cow/buffaloes, mother goddess are pretty much what define the majority of "Hinduism". Nobody seems to worship Indra these days except may be Newaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%20Jatra

bmoney
05-22-2018, 04:43 AM
If those are indeed IVC traces, then the IVC cultural impact was huge. Things like Shivalinga, Cow/buffaloes, mother goddess are pretty what defines the majority of "Hinduism". Nobody seems to worship Indra these days except may be Newaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%20Jatra

true, can't remember the last time I heard bhajans about Dyauspitr

Newaris.. they are a very interesting people

anthroin
05-22-2018, 04:58 AM
If those are indeed IVC traces, then the IVC cultural impact was huge. Things like Shivalinga, Cow/buffaloes, mother goddess are pretty much what define the majority of "Hinduism". Nobody seems to worship Indra these days except may be Newaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%20Jatra

But I will not be very surprised if it turns out that the emergence of Mahishasura Mardini Durga was a pretty normal Indo-Aryan (as in the most conservative Vedic layer of it) cultural development with limited or no non-Indo-Aryan inputs. And the mother goddess village deities are technically Hindu, yes, but they are not of the High tradition of the Puranas, etc.

bmoney
05-22-2018, 05:24 AM
It sometimes looks as if they all just deliberately set fire themselves, to all their cultural belongings for some tragic reason. Not to mention the complete loss of urbanism with no traces whatsoever. Maybe they became angry with the Mesopotamians for some reason lol. For all their West Asian (Iranian) genetic ancestry, they moved further east into the subcontinent and not even some reasonably significant amount of migration seems to have taken place into Mesopotamia after the abandonment of their cities (maybe some very few people moved back to their homelands in Balochistan and Iran).

I believe the only major legacies are fertility religions and motifs and the survival of worship of Mother Goddesses- the Indo-Aryans had female deities like Dawn, Night and of course the Rivers but they appear to be of a different nature compared to somewhat fierce Indian mother goddesses and female deities like Buffalo-Demon Slayer riding on lions and tigers. And this I believe just because Indus Civilisation is similar to other Ancient Near Eastern Civilisations and they seem to have had similar importance of mother goddesses and we don't even know if the deities like these that we do have now are direct Indus survivals or from some other non-Indus cultures of India instead. Both Dravidian and Munda do not seem plausible candidates as even these non-Indus cultures to my mind which is possibly very biased against Dravidian and Munda (Language X anyone? Yep I love that Language X!).

And all this with the note that I have been surprised quite a few times in the past to discover that the stuff which I had been thinking of as having non-Indo-Aryan cultural origins possibly, may actually have had Indo-Aryan cultural origins after all. A lot of problems seem to get instantly solved if Indus = Indo-Aryans on a physical level, actually, though there would still be a lot of new stuff that needs to be explained.

Hey @anthroin what do you think of this paper, full pdf is downloadable

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275950220_The_Demise_of_the_Dravidian_Vedic_and_Pa ramunda_Indus_Hypotheses_A_brief_explanation_as_to _why_these_three_Hypotheses_are_no_longer_tenable

anthroin
05-23-2018, 04:31 AM
Hey @anthroin what do you think of this paper, full pdf is downloadable

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275950220_The_Demise_of_the_Dravidian_Vedic_and_Pa ramunda_Indus_Hypotheses_A_brief_explanation_as_to _why_these_three_Hypotheses_are_no_longer_tenable

Hey man, I'm sorry but it was such a pain for me to read that paper (rather like a mini-sized book). If I were you, I wouldn't take it very seriously and the reason is not because he is proposing very radical stuff in it but because it seems rather confusing and unclear to me what he even wants to propose. Regarding linguistics, he seems to say that the Indus languages were "Indic" and "ancestors of Prakrits" before any contact with actual Sanskrit-speaking Indo-Aryans of the Vedic era, which he places in the traditional time frame of post-1600 BC but in the Gangetic plains having come from their "homeland" in Kashmir or somewhere which he proposes and to which homeland in Kashmir they come as probably PIEs or Pre-PIIs from Ponto-Caspian steppe before 2300 BC. All development of Indo-Iranian or Indo-Aryan happens in the "Himalayan region" and they spread out into the Gangetic plains between 2300-2200 BC. They also move to Indus but are "acculturated" there by the Indus people. The languages of the Indus people are grouped as one confusing "Old Indic" as if they were a genetic group and include "Indo-Semitic", "Proto-Burushaski", "Dravidian", "Munda", etc. (he stresses in many other places that Dravidian and Munda were categorically not the languages of IVC (see his title) so probably he means Dravidian and Munda just had a minor presence in the IVC). The major languages are probably what he terms "Indo-Semitic", and the definition of the "Indo-" part of it is not clear. He writes in one of the annexures on page 135,


By the time of the mature Harappan phase, the languages of Baluchistan would have synthesized with the various languages already spoken in the Indus valley to give rise to the languages spoken in the Indus valley civilization. There would have been undoubtedly many languages belonging to many language families spoken here, such as proto-Burusharski [sic], and these can be reconstructed from the methods proposed in our paper. We have collectively referred to these as Indo-Semitic.

So the "Indo-Semitic" terminology is rather unclear (it does not seem to have anything to do with a proposed genetic grouping between Indo-European languages and Semitic languages; in case if they are proposed that way, then this proposal is not valid because Semitic languages are a known branch of Afroasiatic language family and any connections should be made between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Afro-Asiatic and not between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Semitic- no modern linguist considers valid an "Indo-Semitic" hypothesis which was existent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Semitic_languages) at an older point of time but was subject to paradigm shift later on). He says that the languages of this "Indo-Semitic" group "can be reconstructed from the methods proposed in our paper" but only (speculatively) mentions the just one "proto-Burusharski [sic]" by name.

On page 103, he writes


To put it somewhat differently, these languages were half-way between the very old Semitic languages of West Asia and the much later Prakrits of the Gangetic plains and the NW of India, but were clearly already Indic. This is attested from the fact that the languages of Sindh are different from the languages of Baluchistan, and the split up between Iranian and Old Indic (i.e. Indo-Semitic or the languages of the IVC) must have happened well before the Mature Harappan as there was a time gap of 4400 years between Mehrgarh Phase One and the Mature Harappa.

The concept of Harappan languages being "half-way between" Semitic and "later" "Prakrits" is not at all clear. The proposal of a "split up between Iranian and Old Indic (i.e. Indo-Semitic or the languages of the IVC)" is not tenable from known linguistics as Iranian branch is closely related to the Old Indo-Aryan branch, represented by Vedic Sanskrit, of the IE family and not this vaguely defined (as we have seen earlier) "Indo-Semitic".

So, yeah, many of his proposals are not even clear to me and some of those that I do seem to understand are not supported by linguistics.

parasar
09-25-2019, 08:30 PM
Most 1200-800BC samples have steppe ancestry.
Y lines Q1b2 and R1b were perhaps the carriers.

In later samples steppe increases along with AASI.

The M lines had a clear expansion post these samples. I had expected N line to be more frequent than M lines on the Indus ("mtDNA N > M, with both present"), but the extent of the skew was a surprise.

Looks like Narasimhan agrees with the correlation.
Per Razib:
"the rise in AHG is a function of indo-aryanization of swat."
"its andaman-related hunter-gatherer. basically aasi. it looks to both vagheesh and i that there was movement of ppl enriched for BOTH steppe and AHG into swat. i think these are indo-aryans who mixed with groups with little iranian-related farmer."

poi
09-26-2019, 12:42 AM
Fast forward to 2019 and this thread title makes no sense. If we are to take the results of those 2 August 2019 studies, the lone Rakhigarhi sample was in the middle of the IVCp cluster and the IVCp ancestry shows up in BMAC and eastern Iran(SiS2).

pegasus
09-26-2019, 02:23 AM
Looks like Narasimhan agrees with the correlation.
Per Razib:
"the rise in AHG is a function of indo-aryanization of swat."
"it’s ‘andaman-related hunter-gatherer.’ basically aasi. it looks to both vagheesh and i that there was movement of ppl enriched for BOTH steppe and AHG into swat. i think these are indo-aryans who mixed with groups with little iranian-related farmer."




Not at all, one cannot really use the Swat by the Saidu Sharif /Buddhist period to conclude that at all because of the heterogeneity of the people and who don't really represent the lay populations. Present populations in that area today and Western Pakistan in general, the vast majority of them have even much lower AASI levels than the SGPT groups today let alone those at Saidu Sharif. Lay populations in that region are mostly Steppe and/or Turan shifted versions of SPGT groups not Swat IA.

One can make that argument for the Indus Gangetic plains.I would say the rise in AASI occurs largely after the fall of the IVC around 2000 BC because you have AASI rich samples at Aligrama and this is Northern Pakistan, I am sure it was higher in the Indus plains. In Western Pakistan AASI falls and I would also say the same for some upper caste groups in the North Indus who have similar AASI levels to SPGT or even lower (Khatri, Kamboj). At least for the groups I mentioned AASI actually goes down esp of you use a composite Indo Aryan type like Loebanr outlier.

"sample": "PAK_Singoor_MA:Average",
"fit": 3.7254,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 44.17,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 16.67,
"RUS_Karelia_HG": 15.83,
"Simulated_AASI": 11.67,
"RUS_Sosonivoy_HG": 10,
"NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 1.67,
"closestDistances": [



Main population in the Swat are like this now

{
"sample": "Yusufzai:Average",
"fit": 3.3043,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 49.17,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 15.83,
"RUS_Karelia_HG": 14.17,
"Simulated_AASI": 13.33,
"RUS_Tyumen_HG": 5,
"NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 2.5,

deuterium_1
09-27-2019, 10:28 PM
Fast forward to 2019 and this thread title makes no sense. If we are to take the results of those 2 August 2019 studies, the lone Rakhigarhi sample was in the middle of the IVCp cluster and the IVCp ancestry shows up in BMAC and eastern Iran(SiS2).

Well I created this thread before the Rakhigarhi results were out lol.