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View Full Version : L47* (Z159+, DYS438=11) - The "Ivanhoe Cluster"



gigrant74
08-15-2012, 02:17 PM
This seems like a great place to organize discussions regarding the work Dr. Mikhail Rogov has done on an interesting cluster of DNA matches with a small non-Jewish group from the British Isles and a larger Jewish group located in Eastern Europe.

Interesting links:

http://mykindred.com/L47x/
http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/message/5865
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishr1b/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/message/6325

plowedu
08-16-2012, 02:53 AM
I am L47*, Z159, but DYS438=12 and my ▒1700 ancestor (L÷wenstein) lived in Darmstadt, Hesse, Germany and he was Evangelisch Lutheran. He moved to The Netherlands and became the founder of the L÷wensteyn (L÷wensteijn) family in that country. Where do I fit in in relation to this Ivanhoe cluster?

gigrant74
08-16-2012, 04:33 AM
I am awaiting the results on my 111 marker test which will tell how close we are genetically, but as of now we split from each other a long time ago (you show up on my 12 marker matches with a distance of 1).

I am expecting, as more and more are tested, that we will find a large split around the 5th century. My theory is that 2,000-2,500 years ago we were all very closely related or even had the same ancestor during this period. Over time a group branched off and hit England either as laeti members of a Roman legion, such as XX which settled Deva (modern Chester) or as part of the Anglo-Saxon invasion (most likely Angles that founded the Mercia or Hwicce kingdoms). This would include my ancestors as well as members of what are now Cloud, Cheshire, Blood, Burns, Rattray and a few other surnames. A much larger group stayed in N. Germany for a long period, which I would include the Lowensteyn, Rubinsohn and Scott (Schacht) families. A third group, probably the largest group, ended up in Eastern Europe and are predominately Jewish. How this all happened is the beautiful mystery many people are working to solve. Some of the E. Europeans have a history as Sephardic Jews and lived for a period of time in Spain. I know that along the Rhine River there was a strong Jewish community (Askenazi Jews) that at some point was displaced. Most were pushed East while others ended up in Spain and other areas. There are several histories of countries exiling their Jewish communities, such as England in the 13th century and Spain in 1492. I believe Clovis may have exiled Jews in his kingdom much earlier. I think the English group came over as pagans and were converted into Christians (as history suggests) while the EE group went pagan->Judaism. Your group may have also gone pagan->Christian and ended up Luthern while my Grants went Puritan and the Clouds went Quaker.

There are many many different options on how we are got to where we are today. I'm hoping this discussion will help us all narrow down that list into something concrete.

gigrant74
08-16-2012, 04:57 AM
The time period for the mass exodus of Jews from N. Germany seems to be between 1096-1349. Closer to 1349 the majority went East to Poland and then probably into Lithuania, Russia & Belarus from there.

As for how a few families ended up in Spain, I am hoping the DNA shows a very early spit from the main group so that I can use the Vandals or Visigoths as an excuse, but it would have to be accepted that these members converted to Judaism at some point (neither the Vandals or Visigoths have any Jewish history and in fact persecuted Jews while in Spain). While none of our matches have Spanish origins, one (or more?) family claims to have gone from Spain to Eastern Europe (and I have no reason to doubt them). For now I am calling it the "Spanish Problem" as I can't seem to find an easy answer for it.

gigrant74
08-16-2012, 05:06 AM
By the way, you aren't the only DYS438=12 member of Z159, and perhaps this will help with the differentiation of the groups.

gigrant74
04-20-2014, 01:08 AM
I've done more research on L159+ which I will post here in the coming days. From there, the Big Y will sort things out. The short of it is there are 3 apparent groups:

DYS 438=11, 717=20 & 462=10 - which is the Eastern European and majority Jewish "Ivanhoe" Group (as named and originally discovered by Mikhail Rogov).

DYS 438=11, 717=19 & 462=11 - which is appears to be either Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking, (there's also an argument for Swedish Viking) and now labeled as the "Z159+ Beowulf" Group.

DYS 438=12, 717=19, 462=11, YCAlla=21 & 413=21 - mainly British Isles with some far west continent and labeled as the "Z159+ Norman" Group. This group is very closely related to Z160+ kits with the same DYS signatures which I call the "Z160+ Norman" Group.

And finally there are two CTS3553+ kits that are originated in S. Italy via the Norman-originated de Hauteville Family.

I believe all of the above can be traced back to a handful of families situated on the northern end of the Jutland Peninsula. The "Ivanhoes" probably travelled east to Lithuania & Poland and then down the Russian River system into Belarus & the Ukraine, some of which becoming Jewish later. The "Beowulfs" went west into England as either Anglo-Saxon invaders (most likely Jutes) or as part of the Danish Vikings. The other groups were likely Norman that moved around a little later then the first two, ending up mostly in England with a few staying in the far west of Europe. Of course the de Hautevilles went to Sicily and Southern Italy.

CLColegrove
09-24-2014, 07:45 PM
I haven't heard of any Jewish connection to R-L47 except online. I would imagine most y-DNA surnames with the U106 > L47 marker would be English or continental Dutch/German. My 23andMe.com results show my y-DNA as R1b1b2a1a1d1*, which apparently is the same (though I have yet to test with them) as Family Tree DNA's R1b1a2a1a1a4. So I have SNP U106/L47. My earliest known paternal ancestor was Francis Colegrove, Sr., c. 1663-c. 1759. He came from London, England to Rhode Island colony in the 1680's. Beyond him I have no records. The Colegrove surname, however, is found in the 1560's and into the 17th century, predominately in Oxfordshire, with the earlier references listed as Swalcliffe and Kiddington in the 16th century. I have no specific connection to Oxfordshire yet, but hopefully another Colegrove from the UK, another branch, will test as well. It is thought the name may have originated with a grove along the little River Thames, near Coleshill, Oxfordshire, but this is 19th century speculation. I've heard that others from England such as the Cloud family share our DNA siginiture, so perhaps we share a common English ancestor in the early Middle Ages?? Do you have any information on R-L47? Thanks. - Chris.

gigrant74
03-21-2015, 03:09 PM
I don't have much info on R-L47 other than it seems to originate in N. Germany or Denmark and it's quite old. There are several noble families of Germany that carried this SNP and it was probably very common among Vikings and the Normans. I would guess it first made it's way into England as part of the Anglo-Saxon Invasion and then a large wave of it appeared with the Viking Invasions that occurred later.

At this point I think the Jewish connection is more or less a non-story. There is a large number of Z159+ Jewish kits but it's skewed because there was a large push to find potential Z159 families and test them several years ago. My thoughts now are that these Jewish Z159+ kits all descend from one person who lived 1000+ years ago and was likely converted to Judaism via the Khazars in Eastern Europe or was part of a Jewish family that suffered an NPE during a Viking raid. The Jewish kits are all located in or near the Belarus region.

My own family can be traced to SW England as far back as 1601 and was likely always located in this region or moved there early on from the London area. There is an English le Graunt family that can be found near London in the early 1200's, and a Gaunt family can be found at the same time near the Welsh borders in SW England. My current guess is that my Grants connect to a Le Grand family that came over as part of the Norman Invasion, probably as servants or squires to one of the Nobles. We have no history of or connection with Scotland, and neither does any of our closest non-Grant matches (although they are all fairly distant genetically), so any previous membership or affiliation with the Scottish Clan Grant has been rejected.

Chances are the shared ancestor pre-dates the English Middle Ages and occurred either in Normandy or Denmark before.

joeflood
11-14-2015, 03:03 PM
It's surprising how few people are willing to credit a British source for various SNPs. There 's no doubt Britain was a major point of dispersal of a lot of Bronze Age lines.

What I see is a large British/North Sea group and a smaller much more recent East-Central European Jewish group. However there is a heavy British bias in sampling.

We have Mike Rogov's charming story of a Sephardic Jewish merchant In Iberia 12th century bought himself a Dutch slave who had a way with the ladies. The merchant went on regular trading trips up into Eastern Europe and the lad left a trail of little Ivanhoes behind him.

Mike's map certainly looks like that but it seems to have disappeared

Amazingly enough the DNA gives it some support. If you go down the line L47>Z159 >S3249>Y5461>FGC8590>FGC8579>FGC8578>FGC8573>FGC8587; then as far as FGC8579 the side branches are pretty much all British and Dutch; at that point we have a Portuguese, and then it’s all East-Central Europe and Russia.

A diaspora of Dutch anabaptists is another story.

Anyway hopefully the new L47 pack will reveal a whole lot more.

JF

genealaddict
11-16-2015, 03:20 PM
It's surprising how few people are willing to credit a British source for various SNPs.

[...]

Anyway hopefully the new L47 pack will reveal a whole lot more.


A recent topic on 23andMe forums may have interesting results. The original post was a fairly typical (for 23andMe) "I'm R1b1b2a1a1d from England, where are you from?" type. The OP was from Bristol. I'm from Somerset. Message after message came from people with paternal ancestry from South West England, with a few exceptions. It's raised enough interest to get at least a couple of people from 23andMe to decide to take FTDNA tests to see if we have any sort of link beyond L48.

I'm currently waiting for my result for the L47 SNP, recommended by project admins based on my Y-111. I'm almost certain that I'm L47+ because an "anonymous" (but known, with 95% certainty) cousin was found to be L47+ on the v3 chip.

As soon as I get confirmation I'll order the L47 pack.

genealaddict
12-08-2015, 03:43 AM
I've finally got my L47+ result. I'm about to order the "L47 SNP Pack" which tests 112 SNPs downstream from L47.

genealaddict
01-22-2016, 12:55 PM
I got the results today: FGC8590+, negative downstream of that.

jaykenny52
08-03-2016, 08:36 PM
Did you join any of the FTDNA groups? Also, I want to let you know that a new Facebook page has been set up for those of us who have tested FGC8590+ ... AI think the idea is that is we can find as many folks as possible to pull together, perhaps we can figure out more about this haplogroup ... Ken

genealaddict
08-04-2016, 05:33 PM
On FTDNA I'm a member of the U106 group. Is there anything more specific?

What's the Facebook group called? I couldn't find it when I searched for FGC8590.

Baltic Viking
08-09-2016, 01:38 AM
Baltic Vikings FGC8590 https://www.facebook.com/groups/523294947875964/

Richard Y
10-12-2016, 03:35 AM
A recent topic on 23andMe forums may have interesting results. The original post was a fairly typical (for 23andMe) "I'm R1b1b2a1a1d from England, where are you from?" type. The OP was from Bristol. I'm from Somerset. Message after message came from people with paternal ancestry from South West England, with a few exceptions. It's raised enough interest to get at least a couple of people from 23andMe to decide to take FTDNA tests to see if we have any sort of link beyond L48.

I'm currently waiting for my result for the L47 SNP, recommended by project admins based on my Y-111. I'm almost certain that I'm L47+ because an "anonymous" (but known, with 95% certainty) cousin was found to be L47+ on the v3 chip.

As soon as I get confirmation I'll order the L47 pack.

My earliest known Male Ancestor was in Exeter in the 1600s as a Freeman/Weaver.

YSEQ testing has established that I am L47+ L44+ but negative for l46 and below...including Z159 and Z9.

Is there anybody else in this forum on the same 'twiglet' of the tree?

Richard Y

lgmayka
10-12-2016, 09:10 AM
YSEQ testing has established that I am L47+ L44+ but negative for l46 and below...including Z159 and Z9.

Is there anybody else in this forum on the same 'twiglet' of the tree?
Take a look at YFull's R-L44 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-L44/). There is an entire clade that is L44+ L46- , named R-FGC6194 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC6194/).

Richard Y
10-12-2016, 04:21 PM
Thanks...but FGC6194 seems to be for L46+ (rather than negative.)...unless I am misreading it.

lgmayka
10-12-2016, 07:41 PM
Thanks...but FGC6194 seems to be for L46+ (rather than negative.)...unless I am misreading it.
You are misreading it. In a tree diagram of this kind, two sub-branches at the same level of indentation are brothers (i.e., same parent but otherwise mutually exclusive). R-L46 and R-FGC6194 are brothers.

Richard Y
10-13-2016, 02:41 AM
OK...I can see the brotherhood of L46 and FGC6194 at the same level of indentation. Can you kindly clarify the L46 + and L46 - issue for me? I have been looking at L46 (right indented from L44+) as exclusively positive and downstream from L44+....and an L46- result as indicative of being on a twiglet downstream of L44 and upstream of L46 and FGC6194....hence the search for others on the same twiglet.

YSEQ who did the analysis deliberately "drill down" from U106 until they stop getting positives (such as L44 +) and get negatives (such as L46 - )

CLColegrove
02-17-2017, 08:27 AM
Update: According to further testing with FamilyTreeDNA, I am in Haplogroup R-L44...

testing positive for the following SNPs: Z381+ U106+ L48+ L47+ L44+ FGC6183+;

and negative for the following
SNPs: Z9487- Z9- Z8180- Z8179- Z8- Z350- Z326- Z191- Z18- Z17913- Z160- Z159- Z158- Z157- Z156- Y6463-
Y6453- Y13229- U198- S9639- S9257- S8368- S6934- S6926- S6925- S6924- S6915- S3894- S3251- S3249-
S20039- S1933- S1920- S18461- S17698- S16752- S16602- S1260- PH4355- M10145- L525- L493- L46- L45-

Any other R-L44's out there with origins in England pre-1680's? Or any other Colegrove's taken the tests? I have found one other Colegrove who matches me on FTDNA, my closest y-dna match to date, but he's recently, sharing my 6x g-grandfather, born in the 1730's, as a match. Like to know where the R-L44 came from, how many of there of us are likely to exist, when the L44 mutation occured, if it is mostly found in certain areas of the world, linking back to any historical origins (e.g. Anglo-Saxons, before them, other historical migrations)? Thoughts?

netnik808
04-12-2017, 02:43 PM
Yeah, I'm also R1b U106 L48. I may also be L47 as a someone with my surname (who is probably a distant cousin) seems to be. My surname is Long and it probably was either Anglo-Irish or English coming from Yorkshire (or somewhere in the North of England).

netnik808
04-12-2017, 02:53 PM
I am R1b U106 L48 (surname Long of either Anglo-Irish or North English origin) and may also be L47 (a distant cousin with my surname is). Anyway, why is this called the "Ivanhoe Cluster"? It seems odd since it really seems to be more or a North German/Dutch/Frisian/Anglo-Saxon cluster, isn't that true? I know L48 clusters in Friesland/The Netherlands and England. Is L47 also found in significant numbers in those areas or is it more Jewish/Eastern European?

-Nicholas Long
New Jersey

Wing Genealogist
04-13-2017, 10:45 AM
I am R1b U106 L48 (surname Long of either Anglo-Irish or North English origin) and may also be L47 (a distant cousin with my surname is). Anyway, why is this called the "Ivanhoe Cluster"? It seems odd since it really seems to be more or a North German/Dutch/Frisian/Anglo-Saxon cluster, isn't that true? I know L48 clusters in Friesland/The Netherlands and England. Is L47 also found in significant numbers in those areas or is it more Jewish/Eastern European?

-Nicholas Long
New Jersey

The Ivanhoe cluster is still somewhat of a mystery. Their nearest neighbors are based in England and (surprisingly) Portugal, but almost everyone in the cluster appears in Eastern Europe. Charles Moore (the admin for the R-U106 Project https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background) calls this a "donut hole". One possible explanation is an English lad moving to Eastern Europe and marrying a Jewish woman (which is where the name of the cluster came from).

Ballumbie
05-24-2018, 03:55 PM
Hi,

I am interested to discover this thread and its intriguing content. I am DYS 438=12, 717=19, 462=11, but YCAlla=23 & 413=23 (FTDNA kit B271630). My subclade is R-FGC17304 via R1b U106 L47 Z159 S3251 FGC17298 BY41548 FGC17308 FGC17304.

I would be grateful to read anyone's ideas as to where this fits in and any information about the group's migration and/or heritage.

Thank you.