Looking for Lee, M222 DF109 Clusters.

[Dan Lee]

I recently received my results from Living DNA. My yDNA shows R-M222, R-DF109. I believe My Great Grandfather was from Northwest Cork. I am looking for yDNA clusters to verify.

[Molfish]

I recently received my results from Living DNA. My yDNA shows R-M222, R-DF109. I believe My Great Grandfather was from Northwest Cork. I am looking for yDNA clusters to verify.
I am DF109. My paternal line is from Offaly, and very heavily embedded in the Irish Midlands.

[Dubhthach]

Dan,

Have you only done testing with LivingDNA?

DF109 as a clade is also known as DF105 (the two SNP's are phylogenetically equivalent eg. all DF105+ men so far tested are also DF109+ and vice-versa)

DF105/DF109 makes up the vast bulk of all Irish M222+, probably on order of 80-90%

It's also quite old probably dating to the late Iron age/Early Christian period. Dr. Iain McDonald calculated the following dating for when it arose/began to diversify:

Clade\t Best guess (95% confidence interval)
DF105 214 AD (90 BC — 466 AD)

Here is a block tree made up of a couple hundred DF105+ men who have done BigY.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=564&star=false

As can be seen there are several major branches. I'm not sure which if any are tested as part of LivingDNA. You would imagine given the M222 result and perhaps the surname (Lee can be a Galway surname) that origins in early medieval period are somewhat more northward of Cork. (M222 has it's lowest levels in Munster)

[Dan Lee]

I have only done testing with Living DNA. I have found a Patrick Lee born 1847 in Templemolaga, Co. Cork. This could be my great grandfather. There is a Patrick Lee & Daniel Lee headstone in the graveyard at Labbamolaga. The dates on those headstones don't coincide with an 1847 birth. It could be the same family.


That area is near the Cork/Limerick border.

[Dubhthach]

I have only done testing with Living DNA. I have found a Patrick Lee born 1847 in Templemolaga, Co. Cork. This could be my great grandfather. There is a Patrick Lee & Daniel Lee headstone in the graveyard at Labbamolaga. The dates on those headstones don't coincide with an 1847 birth. It could be the same family.


That area is near the Cork/Limerick border.

Well there is definetly a cluster in North Cork from looking at the Griffith Survey data from

https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Lee
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish.php?county=Cork&surname=Lee
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?CountyMap=East&civilparishid=119&surname=Lee&county=Cork&civilparish=Templemolaga

In most studies M222 is rare enough in Munster, for example here's a map built on data that was in IrelandsDNA/ScotlandsDNA database:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

Ideally you need to find out what sub-branch of M222 you belong to, as some of these have geographic biases when it comes to surnames found in them. Does Living DNA give you a tree and result for any of sub-branches of M222? (I'm not familiar with their interface). In general I would recommend doing a Y-DNA test at FTDNA, and then follow it up with for example the M222 SNP bundle etc.

[Dan Lee]

Here is my Phylogenic Tree from Living DNA.

Fatherline Phylogenetic Tree
ROOTA00A0-TA0A1A1*A1aA1bA1b*A1b1BTBCTDECFCFF*F1F2F3GHIJKGHIJ KHIJKIJKK*LTK(xLT)K(xLT)*K-M2335K-P261K-P402MP-M1205MP-M1205*K-P397PQRR*R-Y482R-Y482*R1R1*R1aR1bR1b*R1b1R1b1*R1b1bR1b1cR1b1aR-L389R-L389*R-P297R-P297*R-M478R-M269R-M269*R-PF7562R-L23R-Z2103R-L51R-L51*R-Z2111R-L151R-L151*R-S1200R-U106R-P312R-P312*R-Y17221R-DF99R-Z2244R-DF19R-U152R-DF27R-L21R-DF1R-L21*R-Y16251R-DF63R-DF13R-CTS2457.2R-L195R-L679R-S1051R-Y9090R-S1026R-Y14049R-Y15071R-Y9097R-L371R-Y16233R-CTS1751R-Y5305R-FGC11134R-Z255R-Z251R-L1335R-DF21R-Z253R-CTS2501R-Z39589R-DF49R-Z2980R-Z2976R-DF23R-Z2961R-M222R-S568R-M222*R-Y3454R-PF1169R-Y2841R-DF106R-S588R-DF85R-Y3644R-A259R-DF104R-DF109YouR-Z2970R-L238R-V1636R2P1

[Solothurn]

Hope they bring in the autosomal matching facility soon :)

I am walled on my mtDNA and Lee from Cork (I think) is one of my 'possibles'

https://cowings.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?view=0&rand=593623998&pid=1316&userid=cowings

[Dan Lee]

I have a .CSV file with my complete yDNA sequence. How can I link or upload it?

[Dan Lee]

Here is the birth record for Patrick Lee. The Lees in East & West Labamologga in 1901 could be siblings or cousins. It's interesting that Patrick Lee was born there, he does not show up in there 1901. My great Grandfather appeared in Philadelphia, PA in 1870. No record of parents names, or place of birth except Ireland.


Name: Patrick Lee Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism:12-Mar-1847Address:Labamologga Parish/District: KILDORRERY Gender: Male County Co. Cork
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Lee Mother: Bridget Flyn Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:Mary Flyn

[RGM]

My maternal grandfather is an M222+ Lee and coincidentally also from Philly. But he's also A259+ and it looks like LivingDNA tests for that. I assume you're not A259 then.


My great Grandfather appeared in Philadelphia, PA in 1870. No record of parents names, or place of birth except Ireland.

I would strongly caution against jumping to any conclusions if you don't know anything about his family or specific origins. Records that far back are incomplete and prone to poor transcription. Patrick Lee would be a pretty common name I'm sure a number of Patrick Lees were born around that time. You really need more info before attempting to locate a baptism record in Ireland.

[Dan Lee]

My maternal grandfather is an M222+ Lee and coincidentally also from Philly. But he's also A259+ and it looks like LivingDNA tests for that. I assume you're not A259 then.



I would strongly caution against jumping to any conclusions if you don't know anything about his family or specific origins. Records that far back are incomplete and prone to poor transcription. Patrick Lee would be a pretty common name I'm sure a number of Patrick Lees were born around that time. You really need more info before attempting to locate a baptism record in Ireland.

My yDNA is M222, but the subclade is DF109.

[MacUalraig]

DF109 is pretty meaningless, too far back in time. The best and most cost effective way to accurately place yourself on the M222 SNP tree is to jump straight in at YSEQ and do their DF49(M222) 'North West Irish' panel.

If you go to ftdna you will end up shelling out for their old marker system of STRs which are notoriously poor at giving accurate matches. You can't buy their SNP panel directly but only after getting the other type of test first.

Note that there is no M222 STR tree. There are however a number of very good M222 SNP trees. I co-admin the YFull M222 group here:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/

Getting on that display requires a more expensive sequencing test like Y Elite but it gives you an idea of how much structure there is on the tree.

[Dan Lee]

RGM: I am A259. Here is my Phylogenetic Tree.

Fatherline Phylogenetic Tree
ROOTA00A0-TA0A1A1*A1aA1bA1b*A1b1BTBCTDECFCFF*F1F2F3GHIJKGHIJ KHIJKIJKK*LTK(xLT)K(xLT)*K-M2335K-P261K-P402MP-M1205MP-M1205*K-P397PQRR*R-Y482R-Y482*R1R1*R1aR1bR1b*R1b1R1b1*R1b1bR1b1cR1b1aR-L389R-L389*R-P297R-P297*R-M478R-M269R-M269*R-PF7562R-L23R-Z2103R-L51R-L51*R-Z2111R-L151R-L151*R-S1200R-U106R-P312R-P312*R-Y17221R-DF99R-Z2244R-DF19R-U152R-DF27R-L21R-DF1R-L21*R-Y16251R-DF63R-DF13R-CTS2457.2R-L195R-L679R-S1051R-Y9090R-S1026R-Y14049R-Y15071R-Y9097R-L371R-Y16233R-CTS1751R-Y5305R-FGC11134R-Z255R-Z251R-L1335R-DF21R-Z253R-CTS2501R-Z39589R-DF49R-Z2980R-Z2976R-DF23R-Z2961R-M222R-S568R-M222*R-Y3454R-PF1169R-Y2841R-DF106R-S588R-DF85R-Y3644R-A259R-DF104R-DF109YouR-Z2970R-L238R-V1636R2P1

[Dubhthach]

My maternal grandfather is an M222+ Lee and coincidentally also from Philly. But he's also A259+ and it looks like LivingDNA tests for that. I assume you're not A259 then.



I would strongly caution against jumping to any conclusions if you don't know anything about his family or specific origins. Records that far back are incomplete and prone to poor transcription. Patrick Lee would be a pretty common name I'm sure a number of Patrick Lees were born around that time. You really need more info before attempting to locate a baptism record in Ireland.

I'm assuming your maternal grandfather's line was tested via FTDNA? Is he A259+/A260- or is it case that he wasn't tested for A260?

[Dubhthach]

RGM: I am A259. Here is my Phylogenetic Tree.

Fatherline Phylogenetic Tree
ROOTA00A0-TA0A1A1*A1aA1bA1b*A1b1BTBCTDECFCFF*F1F2F3GHIJKGHIJ KHIJKIJKK*LTK(xLT)K(xLT)*K-M2335K-P261K-P402MP-M1205MP-M1205*K-P397PQRR*R-Y482R-Y482*R1R1*R1aR1bR1b*R1b1R1b1*R1b1bR1b1cR1b1aR-L389R-L389*R-P297R-P297*R-M478R-M269R-M269*R-PF7562R-L23R-Z2103R-L51R-L51*R-Z2111R-L151R-L151*R-S1200R-U106R-P312R-P312*R-Y17221R-DF99R-Z2244R-DF19R-U152R-DF27R-L21R-DF1R-L21*R-Y16251R-DF63R-DF13R-CTS2457.2R-L195R-L679R-S1051R-Y9090R-S1026R-Y14049R-Y15071R-Y9097R-L371R-Y16233R-CTS1751R-Y5305R-FGC11134R-Z255R-Z251R-L1335R-DF21R-Z253R-CTS2501R-Z39589R-DF49R-Z2980R-Z2976R-DF23R-Z2961R-M222R-S568R-M222*R-Y3454R-PF1169R-Y2841R-DF106R-S588R-DF85R-Y3644R-A259R-DF104R-DF109YouR-Z2970R-L238R-V1636R2P1

Well it's good to see a Lee A259+ given that the Lee surname linked to Galway had a medieval genealogy which might imply a A259+ result (based on other surnames and the interlink between them in medieval genealogies). Here is current tree based on public A259 results:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=567

[Dan Lee]

The Lee name in Gaelic is O'Laidhigh. How is that pronounced?

[RGM]

I'm assuming your maternal grandfather's line was tested via FTDNA? Is he A259+/A260- or is it case that he wasn't tested for A260?

I forgot about this thread. My maternal grandfather is A5902+ from Co. Cavan.

Dan, if you are DF109, that might leave open the possibility that we have a distant connection. Any chance you'll be doing a Y-DNA test?

[Dan Lee]

I did a Y-DNA test on Living-DNA. I have posted my Fatherline Phylogenetic Tree. I have a Y-DNA database file with 385 entries, but I don't see A5902 in either of those. What is your maternal grandfather's first name? I have my complete paternal family tree on ancestry back to my great grandfather.

[Dan Lee]

Well it's good to see a Lee A259+ given that the Lee surname linked to Galway had a medieval genealogy which might imply a A259+ result (based on other surnames and the interlink between them in medieval genealogies). Here is current tree based on public A259 results:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=567

I don't see A260 in my tree.

[Dubhthach]

I forgot about this thread. My maternal grandfather is A5902+ from Co. Cavan.

Dan, if you are DF109, that might leave open the possibility that we have a distant connection. Any chance you'll be doing a Y-DNA test?

The A5902+ result would make sense given the origins in Cavan, given some of other surnames it shows up in.

[Dubhthach]

Dan,

I know it's bit of a kick in teeth, but to get the most out of your Y-DNA lineage you will probably need to test with FTDNA in long run, as there are a several thousdan M222+ men tested in there. It's also tends to be the place where the most in new discoveries is coming from due to tests such as "Big Y-500" etc. They do obviously have a number of tiers when it comes to testing (upgrading between them is cheaper, so useful for stretching test out over a period of time:
https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#/compare

[Dan Lee]

Living-DNA supplied a database file with 385 YDNA entries. I suppose that most entries have no importance in a family tree, but will certain entries help me narrow my search.

[MacUalraig]

Dan none of them will help in your family tree in the sense that most people understand the term, it takes a fair amount of effort to find a SNP that enters the 'genealogical' era. Some lines don't have even one such marker.

There are some dates on the branches on the YFull M222 tree. To get on the tree you would need a more expensive sequencing test (Full Genomes, YSEQ-WGS etc) but you will see that branches dated within the last 1000y aren't that easily located. However the catch is that we need more people to do sequencing in order to refine the tree and add more detail and that's the point at which the age of the branch will better approach meaningful family history (last 3-400y for most of us unless you are lucky).

Any more questions pm me, I co-admin the M222 group on YFull (sample kit YF01405 at the link below).

www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222