PDA

View Full Version : Yamnaya derived culture did not contribute western Eurasian DNA in South Asia



deuterium_1
05-10-2018, 06:36 AM
I came upon this study, this field changes constantly so it doesn't surprise me if another Eurasian steppe culture ultimately introduced Indo-European languages to the Iranian plateau and Indian subcontinent but I guess this study may rule the Yamnaya out?

A quote from the article:


The Science study also uncovered evidence of two waves of migration from the western Eurasian steppes into South Asia, a topic that has been hotly debated by both archaeologists and linguists alike. Although the Yamnaya and Afanasievo cultures have been proposed as the most likely groups to have traveled south and introduced western Eurasian genetic signatures into South Asian populations, the authors behind today’s paper found no evidence that either group did so.

Instead, the team uncovered suggestions of two waves of migration into South Asia: a very early one prior to the Bronze Age (ruling out the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya and Afanasievo) and a second during the Late Bronze Age, 3,200-4,300 years ago, which may have introduced Indo-Iranian languages into the region.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/deadthings/2018/05/09/eurasian-steppes/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0094-2.epdf?referrer_access_token=49GKyhov34lz3luBs8Wlr tRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0Ny6sANquWuUwCaHKs0i-6vx0EbZupPVMe5EOU3mInKrCSbM2irk3xTQ97TnAYamC63PnUZ VpYb94MX3odSK-KSqEj2-Rh422nFI3WGCBoK8ISzxcLVbQD-em6SKCunmRGIC5Kcqz3ERpcGvkEJLosJL8SWE0mAZnPGF4ldVW iNokiEVQx7x1iLL0p2zZJ9d37eWGkZuR4m3va8khrid9nz&tracking_referrer=blogs.discovermagazine.com

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/05/08/science.aar7711

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6384/111

Kambo
05-10-2018, 04:01 PM
Many, many things have ruled Yamnaya out. These are a few more.

deuterium_1
05-10-2018, 04:09 PM
Many, many things have ruled Yamnaya out. These are a few more.

I suspected it when comparing my results with Yamnaya GED match samples yet I still shared DNA with a few other steppe sites in Russia.

Kambo
05-10-2018, 04:14 PM
I suspected it when comparing my results with Yamnaya GED match samples yet I still shared DNA with a few other steppe sites in Russia.

The Steppe is massive and an integral part of Central Asian and South Asian history.
Just Yamnaya isn't. But Yamnaya integral part of Central Asian history. Also half of South Asia is really in fact Central Asia.

deuterium_1
05-10-2018, 04:28 PM
The Steppe is massive and an integral part of Central Asian and South Asian history.
Just Yamnaya isn't. But Yamnaya integral part of Central Asian history. Also half of South Asia is really in fact Central Asia.

That is true, the Eurasian steppe stretched as considerable distance.

Sintashta appears to be part of South Asian history judging by Kurd's recent Geneplaza calculator.

Kambo
05-10-2018, 04:54 PM
That is true, the Eurasian steppe stretched as considerable distance.

Sintashta appears to be part of South Asian history judging by Kurd's recent Geneplaza calculator.

I believe so too.

Or as it should be called, Central Asian history, which includes South Asia.

deuterium_1
05-11-2018, 12:25 AM
I believe so too.

Or as it should be called, Central Asian history, which includes South Asia.

Yes that makes sense as developments in Central Asia were almost always felt in South Asia.

I wonder which culture brought Indo-European languages to the Indian subcontinent and the Iranian plateau.

shudra
05-12-2018, 01:18 AM
That is true, the Eurasian steppe stretched as considerable distance.

Sintashta appears to be part of South Asian history judging by Kurd's recent Geneplaza calculator.

Yeah isn't Sintashta culture the already proposed origin for the Indo-Iranian languages?

bmoney
05-12-2018, 07:23 AM
Yeah isn't Sintashta culture the already proposed origin for the Indo-Iranian languages?

Yeah the Sintashta/Abashevo cultures are the best candidates

I think the Yamna have already been ruled out in South Asia, though they are important for Europe especially as they are R1b.

Most modern Indo-Aryans will have Sintashta Mlba showing up in tight fight nmontes

deuterium_1
05-12-2018, 10:56 PM
Yeah isn't Sintashta culture the already proposed origin for the Indo-Iranian languages?

Who were the Sintashta culture descended from though?


Yeah the Sintashta/Abashevo cultures are the best candidates

I think the Yamna have already been ruled out in South Asia, though they are important for Europe especially as they are R1b.

Most modern Indo-Aryans will have Sintashta Mlba showing up in tight fight nmontes

Sintashta used to be considered part of the Andronovo culture right?

Descendants of the Sintashta likely brought R1a to South Asia?

Another article which discusses this recent paper:

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/05/new-research-shows-how-indo-european-languages-spread-across-asia/119565


“The Indo-European languages are usually said to emerge in Anatolia in the 2nd millennium BCE. However, we use evidence from the palatial archives of the ancient city of Ebla in Syria to argue that Indo-European was already spoken in modern-day Turkey in the 25th century BCE. This means that the speakers of these language must have arrived there prior to any Yamnaya expansions.”

Pretty sure Anatalia has been ruled out for a few years now?

This paragraph got my attention:


The study also shows that the spread of the Indo-Iranian languages to South Asia, with Hindi, Urdu and Persian as major modern offshoots, cannot result from the Yamnaya expansions. Rather, the Indo-Iranian languages spread with a later push of pastoralist groups from the South Ural Mountains during the Middle to Late Bronze Age.

Prior to entering South Asia, these groups, thought to have spoken an Indo-Iranian language, were impacted by groups with an ancestry typical of more western Eurasian populations. This suggests that the Indo-Iranian speakers did not split off from the Yamnaya population directly, but were more closely related to the Indo-European speakers that lived in Eastern Europe.

bmoney
05-13-2018, 12:51 PM
This paragraph got my attention:


Rather, the Indo-Iranian languages spread with a later push of pastoralist groups from the South Ural Mountains during the Middle to Late Bronze Age.

This makes sense, follows the z93 trail


This suggests that the Indo-Iranian speakers did not split off from the Yamnaya population directly, but were more closely related to the Indo-European speakers that lived in Eastern Europe.

Can someone more knowledgeable share their thoughts on the above. Linguistically it makes sense as Indo-Iranians are satem along with Balto-Slavic

What does 'impacted' mean, that they were not initially as western Eurasian?

Rafe
05-16-2018, 07:54 PM
I don't think anyone has actually proposed that the Yamnaya directly migrated to South Asia. Only that Yamnaya-derived cultures, such as Andronovo and Sintashta, did so and are the source of the IE culture in South and Central Asia.

deuterium_1
05-16-2018, 08:46 PM
I don't think anyone has actually proposed that the Yamnaya directly migrated to South Asia. Only that Yamnaya-derived cultures, such as Andronovo and Sintashta, did so and are the source of the IE culture in South and Central Asia.

Personally that is what I always thought, the Yamnaya lived and died on the Pontic-Caspian steppe 5000 years ago, it was only later that steppe peoples speaking peoples migrated South into Central Asia and then onwards to South Asia. Geographically the Afansevo culture was directly to the east of where the Andronovo and Sintashta cultures would later emerge.

Kambo
05-16-2018, 10:04 PM
I don't think anyone has actually proposed that the Yamnaya directly migrated to South Asia. Only that Yamnaya-derived cultures, such as Andronovo and Sintashta, did so and are the source of the IE culture in South and Central Asia.

This is the proposed Steppe theory -> a canard.

Yamnaya hardly has any R1a.
And now from the Hittites samples, the oldest branch (in theory) hardly has any steppe.

Yamnayans were the ancestors of those descendants who would later become IE speakers, that much is true. At least for many Europeans.

deuterium_1
05-17-2018, 09:18 AM
This is the proposed Steppe theory -> a canard.

Yamnaya hardly has any R1a.
And now from the Hittites samples, the oldest branch (in theory) hardly has any steppe.

Yamnayans were the ancestors of those descendants who would later become IE speakers, that much is true. At least for many Europeans.

I get the feeling that the authors of the study are trying rehabilitate the Anatolian origin theory for PIE by using the Hittites (maybe I am mistaken). I remain sceptical of that because I can't help but be reminded of the Sun language theory.

Who were the Sintashta and Andronovo descended from? I mean before the Abashevo, Srubna and Poltavka cultures.

Kanenas
05-17-2018, 09:28 AM
I don't think anyone has actually proposed that the Yamnaya directly migrated to South Asia. Only that Yamnaya-derived cultures, such as Andronovo and Sintashta, did so and are the source of the IE culture in South and Central Asia.

Yeah, but the problem is that some 'Yamnaya-derived' cultures aren't really Yamnaya-derived. That was obvious 3 years ago, at least.

Rafe
05-17-2018, 01:58 PM
Yeah, but the problem is that some 'Yamnaya-derived' cultures aren't really Yamnaya-derived. That was obvious 3 years ago, at least.

I know that Yamnaya's lack of R1a makes it difficult to link it to Sintashta, Andronovo, etc., but once you ignore the European farmer genetic element in these cultures, they're autosomically indistinguishable from Yamnaya, who are, as far as we know, the most plausible source for the EHG+CHG descent found in these populations. Unless you count Afanasievo, who are, however, no more plausible as a source for that type of ancestry among proto-Indo-Iranians because they, too, are predominantly R1b.

Plus, so far, western variants of R-M269 haven't shown up among the Yamnya, but people never have any trouble linking them to the Bell Beakers, in large part because of similarities in autosomal DNA. If Bell Beakers didn't have clear Yamnaya descent, few would think of linking their variant of R-M269 with that of the Yamnaya.

deuterium_1
05-17-2018, 02:39 PM
Is it more likely that the Proto Indo-Iranians and Yamnaya shared a common ancestor?. Possibly the Samara culture?.

Kambo
05-17-2018, 10:16 PM
I get the feeling that the authors of the study are trying rehabilitate the Anatolian origin theory for PIE by using the Hittites (maybe I am mistaken). I remain sceptical of that because I can't help but be reminded of the Sun language theory.

Who were the Sintashta and Andronovo descended from? I mean before the Abashevo, Srubna and Poltavka cultures.

Yes, unfortunately (or fortunately) that's how academia works. They see what models their colleagues have approved of, then try to make the data fit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

In answer to your question, that's the million dollar question.

Kambo
05-17-2018, 10:17 PM
Is it more likely that the Proto Indo-Iranians and Yamnaya shared a common ancestor?. Possibly the Samara culture?.

They share a 20K year old ancestor maybe. Nothing recent.

deuterium_1
05-17-2018, 11:36 PM
Yes, unfortunately (or fortunately) that's how academia works. They see what models their colleagues have approved of, then try to make the data fit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

In answer to your question, that's the million dollar question.

Yeah it is constantly changing in light of new discoveries


They share a 20K year old ancestor maybe. Nothing recent.

The Mal'ta–Buret' culture?

Kambo
05-18-2018, 05:29 PM
Somewhere around there.