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IronHorse
05-16-2018, 12:57 PM
My subclade, I thought I'd make a thread for it, it is interesting because of its distribution compared to other subclades of haplogroup I.

Some facts:

-There are two regions where I2c2 is relatively present: Caucasus and around the Aegean sea. Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, Ossetians, Turks, some Kurds, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, and Macedonians. It is also present in Ashkenazi Jews, and various south and west European countries.

-Frequency is about 5% in Caucasus countries, 3% in Greece, it is highest in Crete (9%) and Thessaly (6%).

-It is defined by 131 SNP's, the subclade formed around 12,600 years ago, but the time to the most recent common ancestor is 4000 ybp, that is 2000 BC.

-Ancient samples who carried I2c2 were found among: Scandinavian HG's from Motala Sweden, Unetice culture in the Bronze Age, the parent clade I2c was also found in Anatolian Neoliothic from Barcin, and European farmers in Hungary. The most recent I2c2 sample was from Armenia in the early Iron Age in Lchashen-Metsamor culture burials, it is significant because the modern distribution is mostly Caucasian and dates to the Middle Bronze Age.

-Link to Yfull :https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/
-Link to the FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2nosubclade-m170p215/about/background

So any theories on its origin and spread ?

oz
05-18-2018, 09:58 AM
I have no idea. I'm surprised to hear that's the subclade of the Motala hg I thought it was I2a1.

eastara
05-18-2018, 11:26 AM
I think the assignment of Motala to I2c2 is some kind of a mistake and the branch is in fact I2c1. Later more detailed study of Mesolithic Scandinavian finds I2c1-S6635*. It makes more sense in view of the current I2c distribution.

Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

Hummervikholmen 2 Southern Norway 7502–7325 I2c1-S6635*
Stora Förvar 11 Stora Karlsö, Sweden 7073–6810 I1~M253
Stora Bjers 1 Gotland, Sweden 7013–6629 I2a1a2a~L1286*
Steigen 1 Northern Norway 4000–3814 I2a1b-M423

I think I2c2 is a later migration to the Balkans from Anatolia, it is missing from the old samples from the Mesolithics and Neolithics.
I have a theory about the so called Balkan cluster, I2-BY4177 which is identifiable by 393=15 and 385a,b=14,14. It has definitely some Armenian connection as all brother clades are from there. For now it is found in a small area among West Bulgarians, Eastern Serbs, Macedonians and Kosovars. Maybe the common denominator was the old Naissus (current Nish), which was a garrison of Roman legions and capital of Moesia Superior and Dacia Mediterranea. After 2nd c. and until the Barbarian invasions most of the recruits were from the Eastern Roman provinces. The bulk of the regular army during Byzantine times was also coming from Anatolia.

oz
05-18-2018, 05:18 PM
Very interesting eastara, thanks for sharing that and Emperor Constantine was born in Niš. After Italy, the territory of modern Serbia is where the biggest number of Roman emperors were born. Many people probably don't know that.

IronHorse
06-02-2018, 11:22 PM
There are a number of old Armenian and Georgian noble families who belong to I2c2:

-Tsitsishvilli: One of the most important noble houses in the Kingdom of Georgia.


The Tsitsishvili family was a continuation of the medieval house of Panaskerteli, known in the province of Upper Kartli (Samtskhe) from the 12th century, who derived their name from the castle of Panaskerti in Tao-Klarjeti. They came into prominence with Zachariah of Panaskerti, who, together with some other nobles, put down in 1192 the revolt against Queen Tamar of Georgia and were eventually enfeoffed with the duchy of Tao.

-Hasan-Jalalian: An old Armenian dynasty descending from the house of Arranshahik.


The House of Hasan-Jalalyan (Armenian: Հասան-Ջալալյաններ) was an Armenian dynasty[1][2] that ruled the region of Khachen (Greater Artsakh) from 1214 onwards in what are now the regions of lower Karabakh, Nagorno-Karabakh and small part of Syunik.[3] It was named after Hasan-Jalal Dawla (Հասան-Ջալալ Դոլա), an Armenian feudal prince from Khachen. The Hasan-Jalalyan family was able to maintain its autonomy throughout several centuries of foreign domination of the region by Seljuk Turks, Persians and Mongols as they, as well as the other Armenian princes and meliks of Khachen, saw themselves of holding the last bastion of Armenian independence in the region.[4]

Through their many patronages of churches and other monuments, the Hasan-Jalalyans helped cultivate Armenian culture throughout the region. By the late 16th century, the Hasan-Jalalyan family had branched out to establish melikdoms in Gulistan and Jraberd, making them, along with Khachen, Varanda and Dizak, a part of what was then known as the "Melikdoms of Khamsa."[5]


Hasan-Jalal traced his descent to the Armenian Aranshahik dynasty, a family that predated the establishment of the Parthian Arsacids in the region.[6][7] Hasan-Jalal's ancestry was "almost exclusively" Armenian according to historian Robert H. Hewsen, a professor at Rowan University and an expert on the history of the Caucasus:

In the male line, (1) the princes (who later became kings) of Siunik. Through various princesses, who married his ancestors, Hasan-Jalal was descended from (2) the kings of Armenia or the Bagratuni Dynasty, centered at Ani; (3) the Armenian kings of Vaspurakan of the Artsruni dynasty, centered in the region of Van; 4) the princes of Gardman; (5) the Sassanid dynasty of Persia, and (6) the Arsacids, the second royal house of Albania, itself a branch of (7) the kings of ancient Parthia.

-Donauri: A Georgian noble family


The Vachnadze (Georgian: ვაჩნაძე) was a Georgian noble family, a principal line descending from the early medieval Donauri dynasty of Kakheti. Their offshoots were the Beburishvili (probably also Babadishvili). The family has produced several notable religious, military and cultural figures.

The Vachnadze fief was centered at the village Kardenakhi. Their princely rank was recognized by the Russian Empire in 1826 and 1850. An unrelated family, originally known as Onanashvili, was enfeoffed with the estate of one of the extinct lines of Vachnadze and allowed to adopt their title and surame in the 18th century.

-Tagaour clan: The Ossetian ‘Tagaour’ clan is an elite family in Ossetia that claims to be descendants of a Royal Armenian prince who took refuge among the Alans during middle ages. Tagaour also appears to be of Armenian etymology. “Tagaour” derived from the Armenian “Tagavor” which means “The king/Royalty”. A reference to their royal background.

-several Melik families and religious families from central and eastern Transcaucasia also belong to I2c2, if the Tagaour origin story is true, then the most likely noble house they descend from would be the Artsruni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsruni_dynasty), since they claim the refugee prince escaped from his uncle in the middle ages , the late rule of this house is the only one that involved un uncle deposing his nephews, and they also claimed the title "Tagavor".

another possible noble house would be the Mkhargrdzeli, but that's based on a participant surname from the I2c project, if indeed they are I2c2, this strengthens the possibility that the house of Artsruni is I2c2, and by extension the extremely old Orontid dynsty, the first royal house in the history of Armenia.

Edessa
06-08-2018, 02:43 PM
I'm i2c2 L-596. Waiting for more results to see the exact clade.
Autosomal mixed, half Slovak (mother) and half Persian (father)

My theory on how this haplogroup got to Persia is massive moves of Armenians and Georgians to Persia under Shah Abbas in XVI. century, of which some must have been I2c2 and were later assimilated in Persia.

IronHorse
06-08-2018, 04:29 PM
I'm i2c2 L-596. Waiting for more results to see the exact clade.
Autosomal mixed, half Slovak (mother) and half Persian (father)

My theory on how this haplogroup got to Persia is massive moves of Armenians and Georgians to Persia under Shah Abbas in XVI. century, of which some must have been I2c2 and were later assimilated in Persia.

Its true that the diversity of this subclade is in South Caucasus, but I'm still careful not to associate it exclusively with Armenians and Georgians, for example, I don't think most of the I2c2 in Greece is Armenian.

It could actually be older in Persia, unfortunately, we don't have many people taking Y-DNA tests in Iran.

IronHorse
06-08-2018, 05:52 PM
Well, given that the complexity of I2c2 is in the Caucasus, and TMRCA is 2000 BC Middle Bronze Age, we have samples from Armenia from that period, and the difference from the previous period is additional EHG, my principle is that they came with the new admixture. TMRCA alone is not enough, some J2 and G2a subclades are 4000 ybp, but they fall within other subclades from Asia and Caucasus, and so their expansion may not be associated with incoming admixture, ultimately their date is neolithic and mesolithic.

some samples of Armenia Middle Bronze Age on MDLP K11 (nMonte may be better I guess):

M182163

1 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 3.902516
2 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 3.906260
3 Germany_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
4 Germany_Bronze_Age + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
5 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.219965
6 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.259293
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.293549
8 Iran_Chalcolithic + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 4.364470
9 Armenia_EBA + Karsdorf_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.415440
10 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_MLBA @ 4.430830
11 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.498933
12 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.504904
13 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Satsurblia_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 4.523823
14 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.524409
15 Irish_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.527648
16 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_MBA + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.534238
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.544265
18 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.557515
19 Europe_MN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.637411
20 Armenia_EBA + Bell_Beaker_Germany + British_Roman + Kotias_CHG @ 4.673275

M575241

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.820611
2 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.226044
3 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.376464
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.485774
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.486670
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.524025
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.607221
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.673566
9 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.705075
10 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.782105
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.820276
12 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.835283
13 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.851664
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.871189
15 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.889132
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.932255
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.938704
18 Hungary_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.964811
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.098249
20 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 4.107765

M930063

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.786437
2 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.196865
3 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.212623
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.304193
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.404650
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.406595
7 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.546007
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.560032
9 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.574245
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.718486
11 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.732627
12 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.741688
13 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.830149
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.852664
15 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.857655
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.874595
17 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.887496
18 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 3.953663
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.029923
20 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.065589


Now, EHG admixture is not caused by a pure EHG population, as in the Laziridis et al(2016) paper, and it wasn't intended that way. the population that carried EHG arrived from Europe, Germany_BA, Nordic_BA, and Unetice_MBA are all possible sources, I don't think its a coincidence an I2c2 sample was found in Unetice culture, all I2c2 in Caucasus came from there it seems.

IronHorse
09-15-2018, 12:10 PM
apparently the ISOGG tree for haplogroup I changed, I2c is now I2a2, and I2c2 is I2a2b. sharing a branch with I2-L460.

the deepest split now for I2 is I2b-L415, a mysterious subclade.

IronHorse
09-15-2018, 01:09 PM
Well, given that the complexity of I2c2 is in the Caucasus, and TMRCA is 2000 BC Middle Bronze Age, we have samples from Armenia from that period, and the difference from the previous period is additional EHG, my principle is that they came with the new admixture. TMRCA alone is not enough, some J2 and G2a subclades are 4000 ybp, but they fall within other subclades from Asia and Caucasus, and so their expansion may not be associated with incoming admixture, ultimately their date is neolithic and mesolithic.

some samples of Armenia Middle Bronze Age on MDLP K11 (nMonte may be better I guess):

M182163

1 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 3.902516
2 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 3.906260
3 Germany_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
4 Germany_Bronze_Age + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
5 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.219965
6 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.259293
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.293549
8 Iran_Chalcolithic + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 4.364470
9 Armenia_EBA + Karsdorf_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.415440
10 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_MLBA @ 4.430830
11 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.498933
12 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.504904
13 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Satsurblia_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 4.523823
14 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.524409
15 Irish_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.527648
16 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_MBA + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.534238
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.544265
18 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.557515
19 Europe_MN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.637411
20 Armenia_EBA + Bell_Beaker_Germany + British_Roman + Kotias_CHG @ 4.673275

M575241

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.820611
2 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.226044
3 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.376464
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.485774
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.486670
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.524025
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.607221
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.673566
9 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.705075
10 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.782105
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.820276
12 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.835283
13 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.851664
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.871189
15 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.889132
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.932255
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.938704
18 Hungary_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.964811
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.098249
20 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 4.107765

M930063

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.786437
2 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.196865
3 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.212623
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.304193
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.404650
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.406595
7 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.546007
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.560032
9 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.574245
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.718486
11 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.732627
12 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.741688
13 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.830149
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.852664
15 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.857655
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.874595
17 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.887496
18 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 3.953663
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.029923
20 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.065589


Now, EHG admixture is not caused by a pure EHG population, as in the Laziridis et al(2016) paper, and it wasn't intended that way. the population that carried EHG arrived from Europe, Germany_BA, Nordic_BA, and Unetice_MBA are all possible sources, I don't think its a coincidence an I2c2 sample was found in Unetice culture, all I2c2 in Caucasus came from there it seems.


Please ignore this post .. now that I look at it, it's nonsense.

IronHorse
10-01-2018, 08:46 PM
If subclades from different haplogroups have the same distribution in the same ethnic groups, and roughly the same age, then most likely they share the same origin.

so which subclades are similar to I2a2b(I2c2) ?

the distribution is what I call "Byzantine", its silly I know, its just a Caucaso-Anatolian-Balkan kind of distribution.

I'm certain of two subclades: R1b-L277 (Z2103 ---> Y4363) and E1b1b1-FGC18401 (M84 ---> FGC18401).

R1b-L584 has the same distribution but is a bit older, there is another subclade of J2 (J-YP879) that I suspect should be added to my list, but I'm not sure if it has the same Balkan distribution.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC18413/
Yfull may not give the E subclade its proper distribution, the E-M35 project does a better job.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP879/

IronHorse
09-19-2019, 02:47 PM
I've uploaded my Bam file to Yfull, I'm now the only Arabian in the I2 tree, glory to genetic genealogy !!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/

I thought I would cluster with the Jewish subclade (from Ukraine), but no shared variants with anyone, five people from my ancestral village have tested and all are I-Y16419, I'll try and convince some of them to invest in Big Y

spruithean
09-19-2019, 06:56 PM
I've uploaded my Bam file to Yfull, I'm now the only Arabian in the I2 tree, glory to genetic genealogy !!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/

I thought I would cluster with the Jewish subclade (from Ukraine), but no shared variants with anyone, five people from my ancestral village have tested and all are I-Y16419, I'll try and convince some of them to invest in Big Y

Very interesting, any idea where your paternal line may have come from prior to Saudi Arabia? Perhaps came down through the Caucasus or through Anatolia?

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 05:10 AM
Very interesting, any idea where your paternal line may have come from prior to Saudi Arabia? Perhaps came down through the Caucasus or through Anatolia?

Sea peoples from Crete :D

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 08:47 AM
This lineage is definitely connected to the founding history of the Armenian ethnicity, its lack or weak presence in western Georgia (Colchis), Azerbaijan, or the North Caucasus republics, points to an origin related specifically to Armenians as an ethnolinguistic group.

I-Y16419 has been found in Lchashen Metsamor culture, Arame in this eurogenes thread (Early chariot riders of Transcaucasia came from... (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/04/early-chariot-drivers-of-transcaucasia.html)) claims that the context is of an elite burial, if true then this must be connected to the disproportionate spread of this subclade in Georgian-Armenian noble families.

outside the Caucasus, this haplogroup is found in the Aegean, some studies that document this:

Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474)

Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata

Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin (Eupedia) (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F7W8HpoP8UAJ:https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page11&hl=en&gl=sa&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18269686).

this one is indirect, its found in Balkh, Afghanistan, along with E-V13 and other seemingly Balkan lineages, ultimately of Greco-Bactrian heritage
Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076748)

in the Levant, and more relavent to my case, in a study of 900 Lebanese, none was I2c, but I managed to find two I2c2 among 370 Palestinians from this old study:
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/)
but my methodology was by STR values only, nevgen predictor assigns 100% chance that they're I2c2, so.

artemv
09-20-2019, 10:16 AM
in the Levant, and more relavent to my case, in a study of 900 Lebanese, none was I2c, but I managed to find two I2c2 among 370 Palestinians from this old study:
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/)
but my methodology was by STR values only, nevgen predictor assigns 100% chance that they're I2c2, so.

I guess there is no such information in the paper, but those I2c2 Palestinians could be of bedouin descent.

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 10:48 AM
I guess there is no such information in the paper, but those I2c2 Palestinians could be of bedouin descent.

the study on Lebanon is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/

the subclade is quite rare in the Levant, I wonder how the Jewish branch originated?

SakaDo
01-15-2020, 04:00 AM
Sea peoples from Crete :D

Sea people are group of tribes and yes peleshet are one of them. Egyptians named them and the location from where they invade. The correct name is people “beyond the sea” not sea people. It’s easier to locate them now.
But about your dna there is other connection ...with the Ottoman Empire and through the white slaves markets thanks to the Jewish merchants of course.

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 04:31 AM
There are a number of old Armenian and Georgian noble families who belong to I2c2:

-Tsitsishvilli: One of the most important noble houses in the Kingdom of Georgia.

-Hasan-Jalalian: An old Armenian dynasty descending from the house of Arranshahik.





-Donauri: A Georgian noble family



-Tagaour clan: The Ossetian ‘Tagaour’ clan is an elite family in Ossetia that claims to be descendants of a Royal Armenian prince who took refuge among the Alans during middle ages. Tagaour also appears to be of Armenian etymology. “Tagaour” derived from the Armenian “Tagavor” which means “The king/Royalty”. A reference to their royal background.

-several Melik families and religious families from central and eastern Transcaucasia also belong to I2c2, if the Tagaour origin story is true, then the most likely noble house they descend from would be the Artsruni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsruni_dynasty), since they claim the refugee prince escaped from his uncle in the middle ages , the late rule of this house is the only one that involved un uncle deposing his nephews, and they also claimed the title "Tagavor".

another possible noble house would be the Mkhargrdzeli, but that's based on a participant surname from the I2c project, if indeed they are I2c2, this strengthens the possibility that the house of Artsruni is I2c2, and by extension the extremely old Orontid dynsty, the first royal house in the history of Armenia.

All of these noble families are descended of the Bagration family which ruled large parts of the Caucuses in medieval times. Their founding legend is that when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and deported the powerful wealthy people around his empire, he deported Shabat, a spice merchant, to the area of Armenia, and because Bagarat means spice in their language, they called him Shabat Bagarat, which became Bagration. This family was Jewish until the Christianization of Armenia when family members were persecuted or killed due to their high position in the court, prompting many of them to convert to Christianity and a few to flee to the neighboring Babylonian Jewish community. This would explain the shared I2c2 of Jews and Armenians. Syrian historians from the 2nd century corroborate this.

tyuiopman
06-19-2020, 02:50 AM
All of these noble families are descended of the Bagration family which ruled large parts of the Caucuses in medieval times. Their founding legend is that when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and deported the powerful wealthy people around his empire, he deported Shabat, a spice merchant, to the area of Armenia, and because Bagarat means spice in their language, they called him Shabat Bagarat, which became Bagration. This family was Jewish until the Christianization of Armenia when family members were persecuted or killed due to their high position in the court, prompting many of them to convert to Christianity and a few to flee to the neighboring Babylonian Jewish community. This would explain the shared I2c2 of Jews and Armenians. Syrian historians from the 2nd century corroborate this.

Bagarat doesn't mean "spice." It means "gift of God." It comes from Iranian. In other words, it's essentially the same name as Theodore.

Bagratuni means "belonging to Bagarat," Bagarat did not "become" Bagration. Bagrationi is just the Georgian-language version of Armenian Bagratuni.

As for I2c2 in Armenians, it goes back way before the Bagratunis (who appeared in 100 BCE, at earliest) to the Middle Bronze Age culture of Lchashen-Metsamor in northern Armenia. So it's more likely that the Armenian I2c2 ended up in Jews (maybe through Mitanni, neo-Hittites, or Greco-Romans) than vice versa.

Also, the Davidic origins of the Bagratunis has long been discredited. They simply gave themselves foreign/Biblical origins for legitimize themselves and connect themselves to Jesus after the Christianization of Armenia and Georgia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_the_biblical_descent_of_the_Bagrationi_dy nasty

jkotl0327
06-20-2020, 12:32 PM
Bagarat doesn't mean "spice." It means "gift of God." It comes from Iranian. In other words, it's essentially the same name as Theodore.

Bagratuni means "belonging to Bagarat," Bagarat did not "become" Bagration. Bagrationi is just the Georgian-language version of Armenian Bagratuni.

As for I2c2 in Armenians, it goes back way before the Bagratunis (who appeared in 100 BCE, at earliest) to the Middle Bronze Age culture of Lchashen-Metsamor in northern Armenia. So it's more likely that the Armenian I2c2 ended up in Jews (maybe through Mitanni, neo-Hittites, or Greco-Romans) than vice versa.

Also, the Davidic origins of the Bagratunis has long been discredited. They simply gave themselves foreign/Biblical origins for legitimize themselves and connect themselves to Jesus after the Christianization of Armenia and Georgia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_the_biblical_descent_of_the_Bagrationi_dy nasty

Yes, as I mention in the thread on my sublcade of I2c2, this legend’s origins are certainly dubious. I apologize for my misrepresentation of Bagarat (it actually means spice in old persian, not arabic). I have still seen this etymology ascribed to the Bagration family (even though it seems not to be the most commonly accepted one as you point out. I generally agree with the wikipedia page which is why I started my previous description with “their founding legend is.” The only thing the wikipedia page does not seem to cover is that Moses of Khorene got his information from a Syraic historian writing many centuries earlier, Mar Abbas Katina.

IronHorse
12-26-2020, 03:21 PM
there are a number of Neolithic and Chalcolithic I2c from Hungary and Romania that are positive for some snp's that define I2c2, suggesting that the ancestors of the middle bronze age founder lived there.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i2ngHuWjYiM0Q2ATGYzUKVspvhVhiPS4/edit#gid=177062368

source of spreadsheet

https://indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/