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IronHorse
05-16-2018, 12:57 PM
My subclade, I thought I'd make a thread for it, it is interesting because of its distribution compared to other subclades of haplogroup I.

Some facts:

-There are two regions where I2c2 is relatively present: Caucasus and around the Aegean sea. Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, Ossetians, Turks, some Kurds, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, and Macedonians. It is also present in Ashkenazi Jews, and various south and west European countries.

-Frequency is about 5% in Caucasus countries, 3% in Greece, it is highest in Crete (9%) and Thessaly (6%).

-It is defined by 131 SNP's, the subclade formed around 12,600 years ago, but the time to the most recent common ancestor is 4000 ybp, that is 2000 BC.

-Ancient samples who carried I2c2 were found among: Scandinavian HG's from Motala Sweden, Unetice culture in the Bronze Age, the parent clade I2c was also found in Anatolian Neoliothic from Barcin, and European farmers in Hungary. The most recent I2c2 sample was from Armenia in the early Iron Age in Lchashen-Metsamor culture burials, it is significant because the modern distribution is mostly Caucasian and dates to the Middle Bronze Age.

-Link to Yfull :https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/
-Link to the FTDNA project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2nosubclade-m170p215/about/background

So any theories on its origin and spread ?

oz
05-18-2018, 09:58 AM
I have no idea. I'm surprised to hear that's the subclade of the Motala hg I thought it was I2a1.

eastara
05-18-2018, 11:26 AM
I think the assignment of Motala to I2c2 is some kind of a mistake and the branch is in fact I2c1. Later more detailed study of Mesolithic Scandinavian finds I2c1-S6635*. It makes more sense in view of the current I2c distribution.

Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703

Hummervikholmen 2 Southern Norway 7502–7325 I2c1-S6635*
Stora Förvar 11 Stora Karlsö, Sweden 7073–6810 I1~M253
Stora Bjers 1 Gotland, Sweden 7013–6629 I2a1a2a~L1286*
Steigen 1 Northern Norway 4000–3814 I2a1b-M423

I think I2c2 is a later migration to the Balkans from Anatolia, it is missing from the old samples from the Mesolithics and Neolithics.
I have a theory about the so called Balkan cluster, I2-BY4177 which is identifiable by 393=15 and 385a,b=14,14. It has definitely some Armenian connection as all brother clades are from there. For now it is found in a small area among West Bulgarians, Eastern Serbs, Macedonians and Kosovars. Maybe the common denominator was the old Naissus (current Nish), which was a garrison of Roman legions and capital of Moesia Superior and Dacia Mediterranea. After 2nd c. and until the Barbarian invasions most of the recruits were from the Eastern Roman provinces. The bulk of the regular army during Byzantine times was also coming from Anatolia.

oz
05-18-2018, 05:18 PM
Very interesting eastara, thanks for sharing that and Emperor Constantine was born in Niš. After Italy, the territory of modern Serbia is where the biggest number of Roman emperors were born. Many people probably don't know that.

IronHorse
06-02-2018, 11:22 PM
There are a number of old Armenian and Georgian noble families who belong to I2c2:

-Tsitsishvilli: One of the most important noble houses in the Kingdom of Georgia.


The Tsitsishvili family was a continuation of the medieval house of Panaskerteli, known in the province of Upper Kartli (Samtskhe) from the 12th century, who derived their name from the castle of Panaskerti in Tao-Klarjeti. They came into prominence with Zachariah of Panaskerti, who, together with some other nobles, put down in 1192 the revolt against Queen Tamar of Georgia and were eventually enfeoffed with the duchy of Tao.

-Hasan-Jalalian: An old Armenian dynasty descending from the house of Arranshahik.


The House of Hasan-Jalalyan (Armenian: Հասան-Ջալալյաններ) was an Armenian dynasty[1][2] that ruled the region of Khachen (Greater Artsakh) from 1214 onwards in what are now the regions of lower Karabakh, Nagorno-Karabakh and small part of Syunik.[3] It was named after Hasan-Jalal Dawla (Հասան-Ջալալ Դոլա), an Armenian feudal prince from Khachen. The Hasan-Jalalyan family was able to maintain its autonomy throughout several centuries of foreign domination of the region by Seljuk Turks, Persians and Mongols as they, as well as the other Armenian princes and meliks of Khachen, saw themselves of holding the last bastion of Armenian independence in the region.[4]

Through their many patronages of churches and other monuments, the Hasan-Jalalyans helped cultivate Armenian culture throughout the region. By the late 16th century, the Hasan-Jalalyan family had branched out to establish melikdoms in Gulistan and Jraberd, making them, along with Khachen, Varanda and Dizak, a part of what was then known as the "Melikdoms of Khamsa."[5]


Hasan-Jalal traced his descent to the Armenian Aranshahik dynasty, a family that predated the establishment of the Parthian Arsacids in the region.[6][7] Hasan-Jalal's ancestry was "almost exclusively" Armenian according to historian Robert H. Hewsen, a professor at Rowan University and an expert on the history of the Caucasus:

In the male line, (1) the princes (who later became kings) of Siunik. Through various princesses, who married his ancestors, Hasan-Jalal was descended from (2) the kings of Armenia or the Bagratuni Dynasty, centered at Ani; (3) the Armenian kings of Vaspurakan of the Artsruni dynasty, centered in the region of Van; 4) the princes of Gardman; (5) the Sassanid dynasty of Persia, and (6) the Arsacids, the second royal house of Albania, itself a branch of (7) the kings of ancient Parthia.

-Donauri: A Georgian noble family


The Vachnadze (Georgian: ვაჩნაძე) was a Georgian noble family, a principal line descending from the early medieval Donauri dynasty of Kakheti. Their offshoots were the Beburishvili (probably also Babadishvili). The family has produced several notable religious, military and cultural figures.

The Vachnadze fief was centered at the village Kardenakhi. Their princely rank was recognized by the Russian Empire in 1826 and 1850. An unrelated family, originally known as Onanashvili, was enfeoffed with the estate of one of the extinct lines of Vachnadze and allowed to adopt their title and surame in the 18th century.

-Tagaour clan: The Ossetian ‘Tagaour’ clan is an elite family in Ossetia that claims to be descendants of a Royal Armenian prince who took refuge among the Alans during middle ages. Tagaour also appears to be of Armenian etymology. “Tagaour” derived from the Armenian “Tagavor” which means “The king/Royalty”. A reference to their royal background.

-several Melik families and religious families from central and eastern Transcaucasia also belong to I2c2, if the Tagaour origin story is true, then the most likely noble house they descend from would be the Artsruni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsruni_dynasty), since they claim the refugee prince escaped from his uncle in the middle ages , the late rule of this house is the only one that involved un uncle deposing his nephews, and they also claimed the title "Tagavor".

another possible noble house would be the Mkhargrdzeli, but that's based on a participant surname from the I2c project, if indeed they are I2c2, this strengthens the possibility that the house of Artsruni is I2c2, and by extension the extremely old Orontid dynsty, the first royal house in the history of Armenia.

Edessa
06-08-2018, 02:43 PM
I'm i2c2 L-596. Waiting for more results to see the exact clade.
Autosomal mixed, half Slovak (mother) and half Persian (father)

My theory on how this haplogroup got to Persia is massive moves of Armenians and Georgians to Persia under Shah Abbas in XVI. century, of which some must have been I2c2 and were later assimilated in Persia.

IronHorse
06-08-2018, 04:29 PM
I'm i2c2 L-596. Waiting for more results to see the exact clade.
Autosomal mixed, half Slovak (mother) and half Persian (father)

My theory on how this haplogroup got to Persia is massive moves of Armenians and Georgians to Persia under Shah Abbas in XVI. century, of which some must have been I2c2 and were later assimilated in Persia.

Its true that the diversity of this subclade is in South Caucasus, but I'm still careful not to associate it exclusively with Armenians and Georgians, for example, I don't think most of the I2c2 in Greece is Armenian.

It could actually be older in Persia, unfortunately, we don't have many people taking Y-DNA tests in Iran.

IronHorse
06-08-2018, 05:52 PM
Well, given that the complexity of I2c2 is in the Caucasus, and TMRCA is 2000 BC Middle Bronze Age, we have samples from Armenia from that period, and the difference from the previous period is additional EHG, my principle is that they came with the new admixture. TMRCA alone is not enough, some J2 and G2a subclades are 4000 ybp, but they fall within other subclades from Asia and Caucasus, and so their expansion may not be associated with incoming admixture, ultimately their date is neolithic and mesolithic.

some samples of Armenia Middle Bronze Age on MDLP K11 (nMonte may be better I guess):

M182163

1 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 3.902516
2 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 3.906260
3 Germany_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
4 Germany_Bronze_Age + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
5 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.219965
6 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.259293
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.293549
8 Iran_Chalcolithic + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 4.364470
9 Armenia_EBA + Karsdorf_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.415440
10 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_MLBA @ 4.430830
11 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.498933
12 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.504904
13 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Satsurblia_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 4.523823
14 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.524409
15 Irish_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.527648
16 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_MBA + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.534238
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.544265
18 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.557515
19 Europe_MN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.637411
20 Armenia_EBA + Bell_Beaker_Germany + British_Roman + Kotias_CHG @ 4.673275

M575241

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.820611
2 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.226044
3 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.376464
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.485774
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.486670
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.524025
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.607221
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.673566
9 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.705075
10 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.782105
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.820276
12 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.835283
13 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.851664
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.871189
15 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.889132
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.932255
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.938704
18 Hungary_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.964811
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.098249
20 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 4.107765

M930063

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.786437
2 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.196865
3 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.212623
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.304193
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.404650
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.406595
7 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.546007
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.560032
9 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.574245
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.718486
11 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.732627
12 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.741688
13 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.830149
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.852664
15 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.857655
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.874595
17 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.887496
18 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 3.953663
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.029923
20 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.065589


Now, EHG admixture is not caused by a pure EHG population, as in the Laziridis et al(2016) paper, and it wasn't intended that way. the population that carried EHG arrived from Europe, Germany_BA, Nordic_BA, and Unetice_MBA are all possible sources, I don't think its a coincidence an I2c2 sample was found in Unetice culture, all I2c2 in Caucasus came from there it seems.

IronHorse
09-15-2018, 12:10 PM
apparently the ISOGG tree for haplogroup I changed, I2c is now I2a2, and I2c2 is I2a2b. sharing a branch with I2-L460.

the deepest split now for I2 is I2b-L415, a mysterious subclade.

IronHorse
09-15-2018, 01:09 PM
Well, given that the complexity of I2c2 is in the Caucasus, and TMRCA is 2000 BC Middle Bronze Age, we have samples from Armenia from that period, and the difference from the previous period is additional EHG, my principle is that they came with the new admixture. TMRCA alone is not enough, some J2 and G2a subclades are 4000 ybp, but they fall within other subclades from Asia and Caucasus, and so their expansion may not be associated with incoming admixture, ultimately their date is neolithic and mesolithic.

some samples of Armenia Middle Bronze Age on MDLP K11 (nMonte may be better I guess):

M182163

1 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 3.902516
2 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 3.906260
3 Germany_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
4 Germany_Bronze_Age + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.218870
5 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.219965
6 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.259293
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.293549
8 Iran_Chalcolithic + Iran_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + Vatya_MBA @ 4.364470
9 Armenia_EBA + Karsdorf_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.415440
10 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_MLBA @ 4.430830
11 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.498933
12 Armenia_MBA + Armenia_Chalcolithic + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.504904
13 Armenia_EBA + Iran_Chalcolithic + Satsurblia_CHG + Swedish_LN @ 4.523823
14 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.524409
15 Irish_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.527648
16 Armenia_LBA + Armenia_MBA + Armenia_EBA + Armenia_EBA @ 4.534238
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Maros_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.544265
18 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.557515
19 Europe_MN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 4.637411
20 Armenia_EBA + Bell_Beaker_Germany + British_Roman + Kotias_CHG @ 4.673275

M575241

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.820611
2 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.226044
3 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.376464
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.485774
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.486670
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.524025
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.607221
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.673566
9 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.705075
10 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.782105
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.820276
12 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.835283
13 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.851664
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.871189
15 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.889132
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.932255
17 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.938704
18 Hungary_BA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.964811
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.098249
20 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 4.107765

M930063

1 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 2.786437
2 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LBA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.196865
3 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.212623
4 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_IA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.304193
5 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.404650
6 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.406595
7 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.546007
8 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_LN + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.560032
9 Bell_Beaker_Germany + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.574245
10 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.718486
11 Alberstedt_LN + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.732627
12 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_MBA @ 3.741688
13 Halberstadt_LBA + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG @ 3.830149
14 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_BA @ 3.852664
15 British_IronAge + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.857655
16 British_AngloSaxon + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.874595
17 British_Celtic + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 3.887496
18 Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Satsurblia_CHG + Unetice_EBA @ 3.953663
19 Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N + Nordic_MN_B @ 4.029923
20 Bell_Beaker_Czech + Kotias_CHG + Kotias_CHG + Levant_N @ 4.065589


Now, EHG admixture is not caused by a pure EHG population, as in the Laziridis et al(2016) paper, and it wasn't intended that way. the population that carried EHG arrived from Europe, Germany_BA, Nordic_BA, and Unetice_MBA are all possible sources, I don't think its a coincidence an I2c2 sample was found in Unetice culture, all I2c2 in Caucasus came from there it seems.


Please ignore this post .. now that I look at it, it's nonsense.

IronHorse
10-01-2018, 08:46 PM
If subclades from different haplogroups have the same distribution in the same ethnic groups, and roughly the same age, then most likely they share the same origin.

so which subclades are similar to I2a2b(I2c2) ?

the distribution is what I call "Byzantine", its silly I know, its just a Caucaso-Anatolian-Balkan kind of distribution.

I'm certain of two subclades: R1b-L277 (Z2103 ---> Y4363) and E1b1b1-FGC18401 (M84 ---> FGC18401).

R1b-L584 has the same distribution but is a bit older, there is another subclade of J2 (J-YP879) that I suspect should be added to my list, but I'm not sure if it has the same Balkan distribution.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4364/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC18413/
Yfull may not give the E subclade its proper distribution, the E-M35 project does a better job.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP879/

IronHorse
09-19-2019, 02:47 PM
I've uploaded my Bam file to Yfull, I'm now the only Arabian in the I2 tree, glory to genetic genealogy !!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/

I thought I would cluster with the Jewish subclade (from Ukraine), but no shared variants with anyone, five people from my ancestral village have tested and all are I-Y16419, I'll try and convince some of them to invest in Big Y

spruithean
09-19-2019, 06:56 PM
I've uploaded my Bam file to Yfull, I'm now the only Arabian in the I2 tree, glory to genetic genealogy !!!

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/

I thought I would cluster with the Jewish subclade (from Ukraine), but no shared variants with anyone, five people from my ancestral village have tested and all are I-Y16419, I'll try and convince some of them to invest in Big Y

Very interesting, any idea where your paternal line may have come from prior to Saudi Arabia? Perhaps came down through the Caucasus or through Anatolia?

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 05:10 AM
Very interesting, any idea where your paternal line may have come from prior to Saudi Arabia? Perhaps came down through the Caucasus or through Anatolia?

Sea peoples from Crete :D

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 08:47 AM
This lineage is definitely connected to the founding history of the Armenian ethnicity, its lack or weak presence in western Georgia (Colchis), Azerbaijan, or the North Caucasus republics, points to an origin related specifically to Armenians as an ethnolinguistic group.

I-Y16419 has been found in Lchashen Metsamor culture, Arame in this eurogenes thread (Early chariot riders of Transcaucasia came from... (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/04/early-chariot-drivers-of-transcaucasia.html)) claims that the context is of an elite burial, if true then this must be connected to the disproportionate spread of this subclade in Georgian-Armenian noble families.

outside the Caucasus, this haplogroup is found in the Aegean, some studies that document this:

Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474)

Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata

Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin (Eupedia) (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F7W8HpoP8UAJ:https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page11&hl=en&gl=sa&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18269686).

this one is indirect, its found in Balkh, Afghanistan, along with E-V13 and other seemingly Balkan lineages, ultimately of Greco-Bactrian heritage
Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076748)

in the Levant, and more relavent to my case, in a study of 900 Lebanese, none was I2c, but I managed to find two I2c2 among 370 Palestinians from this old study:
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/)
but my methodology was by STR values only, nevgen predictor assigns 100% chance that they're I2c2, so.

artemv
09-20-2019, 10:16 AM
in the Levant, and more relavent to my case, in a study of 900 Lebanese, none was I2c, but I managed to find two I2c2 among 370 Palestinians from this old study:
Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/)
but my methodology was by STR values only, nevgen predictor assigns 100% chance that they're I2c2, so.

I guess there is no such information in the paper, but those I2c2 Palestinians could be of bedouin descent.

IronHorse
09-20-2019, 10:48 AM
I guess there is no such information in the paper, but those I2c2 Palestinians could be of bedouin descent.

the study on Lebanon is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/

the subclade is quite rare in the Levant, I wonder how the Jewish branch originated?

SakaDo
01-15-2020, 04:00 AM
Sea peoples from Crete :D

Sea people are group of tribes and yes peleshet are one of them. Egyptians named them and the location from where they invade. The correct name is people “beyond the sea” not sea people. It’s easier to locate them now.
But about your dna there is other connection ...with the Ottoman Empire and through the white slaves markets thanks to the Jewish merchants of course.

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 04:31 AM
There are a number of old Armenian and Georgian noble families who belong to I2c2:

-Tsitsishvilli: One of the most important noble houses in the Kingdom of Georgia.

-Hasan-Jalalian: An old Armenian dynasty descending from the house of Arranshahik.





-Donauri: A Georgian noble family



-Tagaour clan: The Ossetian ‘Tagaour’ clan is an elite family in Ossetia that claims to be descendants of a Royal Armenian prince who took refuge among the Alans during middle ages. Tagaour also appears to be of Armenian etymology. “Tagaour” derived from the Armenian “Tagavor” which means “The king/Royalty”. A reference to their royal background.

-several Melik families and religious families from central and eastern Transcaucasia also belong to I2c2, if the Tagaour origin story is true, then the most likely noble house they descend from would be the Artsruni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsruni_dynasty), since they claim the refugee prince escaped from his uncle in the middle ages , the late rule of this house is the only one that involved un uncle deposing his nephews, and they also claimed the title "Tagavor".

another possible noble house would be the Mkhargrdzeli, but that's based on a participant surname from the I2c project, if indeed they are I2c2, this strengthens the possibility that the house of Artsruni is I2c2, and by extension the extremely old Orontid dynsty, the first royal house in the history of Armenia.

All of these noble families are descended of the Bagration family which ruled large parts of the Caucuses in medieval times. Their founding legend is that when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and deported the powerful wealthy people around his empire, he deported Shabat, a spice merchant, to the area of Armenia, and because Bagarat means spice in their language, they called him Shabat Bagarat, which became Bagration. This family was Jewish until the Christianization of Armenia when family members were persecuted or killed due to their high position in the court, prompting many of them to convert to Christianity and a few to flee to the neighboring Babylonian Jewish community. This would explain the shared I2c2 of Jews and Armenians. Syrian historians from the 2nd century corroborate this.

tyuiopman
06-19-2020, 02:50 AM
All of these noble families are descended of the Bagration family which ruled large parts of the Caucuses in medieval times. Their founding legend is that when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and deported the powerful wealthy people around his empire, he deported Shabat, a spice merchant, to the area of Armenia, and because Bagarat means spice in their language, they called him Shabat Bagarat, which became Bagration. This family was Jewish until the Christianization of Armenia when family members were persecuted or killed due to their high position in the court, prompting many of them to convert to Christianity and a few to flee to the neighboring Babylonian Jewish community. This would explain the shared I2c2 of Jews and Armenians. Syrian historians from the 2nd century corroborate this.

Bagarat doesn't mean "spice." It means "gift of God." It comes from Iranian. In other words, it's essentially the same name as Theodore.

Bagratuni means "belonging to Bagarat," Bagarat did not "become" Bagration. Bagrationi is just the Georgian-language version of Armenian Bagratuni.

As for I2c2 in Armenians, it goes back way before the Bagratunis (who appeared in 100 BCE, at earliest) to the Middle Bronze Age culture of Lchashen-Metsamor in northern Armenia. So it's more likely that the Armenian I2c2 ended up in Jews (maybe through Mitanni, neo-Hittites, or Greco-Romans) than vice versa.

Also, the Davidic origins of the Bagratunis has long been discredited. They simply gave themselves foreign/Biblical origins for legitimize themselves and connect themselves to Jesus after the Christianization of Armenia and Georgia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_the_biblical_descent_of_the_Bagrationi_dy nasty

jkotl0327
06-20-2020, 12:32 PM
Bagarat doesn't mean "spice." It means "gift of God." It comes from Iranian. In other words, it's essentially the same name as Theodore.

Bagratuni means "belonging to Bagarat," Bagarat did not "become" Bagration. Bagrationi is just the Georgian-language version of Armenian Bagratuni.

As for I2c2 in Armenians, it goes back way before the Bagratunis (who appeared in 100 BCE, at earliest) to the Middle Bronze Age culture of Lchashen-Metsamor in northern Armenia. So it's more likely that the Armenian I2c2 ended up in Jews (maybe through Mitanni, neo-Hittites, or Greco-Romans) than vice versa.

Also, the Davidic origins of the Bagratunis has long been discredited. They simply gave themselves foreign/Biblical origins for legitimize themselves and connect themselves to Jesus after the Christianization of Armenia and Georgia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagrat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_the_biblical_descent_of_the_Bagrationi_dy nasty

Yes, as I mention in the thread on my sublcade of I2c2, this legend’s origins are certainly dubious. I apologize for my misrepresentation of Bagarat (it actually means spice in old persian, not arabic). I have still seen this etymology ascribed to the Bagration family (even though it seems not to be the most commonly accepted one as you point out. I generally agree with the wikipedia page which is why I started my previous description with “their founding legend is.” The only thing the wikipedia page does not seem to cover is that Moses of Khorene got his information from a Syraic historian writing many centuries earlier, Mar Abbas Katina.

IronHorse
12-26-2020, 03:21 PM
there are a number of Neolithic and Chalcolithic I2c from Hungary and Romania that are positive for some snp's that define I2c2, suggesting that the ancestors of the middle bronze age founder lived there.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i2ngHuWjYiM0Q2ATGYzUKVspvhVhiPS4/edit#gid=177062368

source of spreadsheet

https://indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/

bunduqdari
04-21-2021, 08:53 AM
Salaam IronHorse, very interesting thread.

I belong to your cousin clade, I-Y14158 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y14158*/) which is also a mystery. I'm really interested in your finding of I2c2 in Palestinians, it may indicate that your clade has been in the Middle East since ancient times. Are you familiar with this twitter account? (https://twitter.com/Arab_IM170) The guy posts all the Arab haplogroup I samples he can find. Which is not many, but some of them are really odd like in tribes. If you're an Arabian I-M170 with public results somewhere like Ftdna then I'm sure he has posted about you.

I have extremely little information to go on for my clade. All I know is that my ancestor was in Egypt since the 1600s and was very wealthy and worked for the Ottoman government. Before Ysearch was shut down, I found 2 hits - 1 in Saudi Arabia and 1 in Iran, with the name indicating that he was a Sayyid. FTDNA's public haplotrees also shows 1 direct match in Reunion Island, east of Madagascar. So that means I am aware of 4 people with my subclade - Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion island. But all the downstream clades on Yfull are purely European! Germany, Italy, Hungary, Albania, Denmark, Finland, Norway. Completely bizarre results!

Regarding your clade, I'm not sure that you can say for sure it was part of the founding of Armenian ethnicity. Arab clades of haplogroup J migrated south from the Caucasus and Armenia into Arabia. There are several studies (that I can link to if you'd like) that show haplogroup J appeared in Arabia only in about 3000 BCE. They seem to have migrated straight down across Saudi, into yemen, and crossing over into Ethiopia and Sudan, avoiding the young but strong civilizations in Sumer to the east and Egypt to the west, and displacing or mixing with the haplogroup E inhabitants of Arabia and the Levant who were already there. If your clade is purely Saudi, 4,000 years old, and originating in ancient Armenia & the Caucasus, then isn't it plausible that it was part of this migration southwards?

bunduqdari
04-21-2021, 09:02 AM
I apologize for my misrepresentation of Bagarat (it actually means spice in old persian, not arabic). I have still seen this etymology ascribed to the Bagration family (even though it seems not to be the most commonly accepted one as you point out.

You are probably thinking of Bharat, which means India. In Arabic it is used to refer to spices because they traditionally came from India. The connection to spices has nothing to do with the etymology of the name, and is probably unrelated to Bagarat in Armenia.

IronHorse
04-21-2021, 05:32 PM
Salaam IronHorse, very interesting thread.

I belong to your cousin clade, I-Y14158 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y14158*/) which is also a mystery. I'm really interested in your finding of I2c2 in Palestinians, it may indicate that your clade has been in the Middle East since ancient times. Are you familiar with this twitter account? (https://twitter.com/Arab_IM170) The guy posts all the Arab haplogroup I samples he can find. Which is not many, but some of them are really odd like in tribes. If you're an Arabian I-M170 with public results somewhere like Ftdna then I'm sure he has posted about you.

I have extremely little information to go on for my clade. All I know is that my ancestor was in Egypt since the 1600s and was very wealthy and worked for the Ottoman government. Before Ysearch was shut down, I found 2 hits - 1 in Saudi Arabia and 1 in Iran, with the name indicating that he was a Sayyid. FTDNA's public haplotrees also shows 1 direct match in Reunion Island, east of Madagascar. So that means I am aware of 4 people with my subclade - Egypt, Saudi, Iran, and Reunion island. But all the downstream clades on Yfull are purely European! Germany, Italy, Hungary, Albania, Denmark, Finland, Norway. Completely bizarre results!

Regarding your clade, I'm not sure that you can say for sure it was part of the founding of Armenian ethnicity. Arab clades of haplogroup J migrated south from the Caucasus and Armenia into Arabia. There are several studies (that I can link to if you'd like) that show haplogroup J appeared in Arabia only in about 3000 BCE. They seem to have migrated straight down across Saudi, into yemen, and crossing over into Ethiopia and Sudan, avoiding the young but strong civilizations in Sumer to the east and Egypt to the west, and displacing or mixing with the haplogroup E inhabitants of Arabia and the Levant who were already there. If your clade is purely Saudi, 4,000 years old, and originating in ancient Armenia & the Caucasus, then isn't it plausible that it was part of this migration southwards?

Hi bunduqdari

yes I've been intrigued by your sample, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Reunion island, this distribution makes no sense.

but, a simple fact is I-M170 is ultimately European, and given that the only European is French, that may indicate a West European origin. there are 56 private variants between you and the sample from Reunion, by Yfull's equation the TMRCA should be close to 56 * 144.41 + 60 = 8147 ybp = 6126 BC ... maybe

maybe your clade accompanied R1b-V88 ? this clade is evidence for a migration from Europe in the Neolithic.

as to my own subclade within I2c2, its also found in a tribe that had historical connections to the Abna (https://iranicaonline.org/articles/abna-term) (descendants of Sassanian soldiers), Khawlan, a big y was ordered for it, if it turns out to be clade with mine, well then there is your answer.

bunduqdari
04-21-2021, 08:22 PM
Hi bunduqdari

yes I've been intrigued by your sample, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Reunion island, this distribution makes no sense.

I think this would only make sense if it entered the Middle East a very long time ago, and the Reunion Islander is an Arab emigrant from Yemen or Oman or something. That would mean an indigenous Middle Eastern branch of I-Y14158. Reunion Island is very demographically diverse, so this guy isn't necessarily a French immigrant. But only time will tell as more matches come through. A European match from pretty much anywhere in Europe would kill this theory




there are 56 private variants between you and the sample from Reunion, by Yfull's equation the TMRCA should be close to 56 * 144.41 + 60 = 8147 ybp = 6126 BC ... maybe

The Saudi guy and Iranian on Ysearch had a 2-step genetic distance over a comparison of 26 STRs. (I have no idea why it was 26, i can only presume that they tested with different companies that looked at different STRs). According to Ftdna's help page, a genetic distance of 2 over 37 markers indicates a 90% probablility of a shared paternal ancestor 12 generations ago. I don't understand how to compare this to private variants, but I assume this means me, the Saudi, and this Iranian guy have a relatively recent ancestor within the last 1,000 years or so.


maybe your clade accompanied R1b-V88 ? this clade is evidence for a migration from Europe in the Neolithic.

I actually thought about this but ruled it out. R1b-V88 entered Africa from the M.E around 7000-8000 years ago. (Sidenote: only 4 ancient samples have been unearthed from Arabia, all 4 from Oman. 3 of them are R1b and the 4th is haplogroup P. All 4 are roughly 5,500 years old. This means that R1b predates J in Arabia)

It originated in southern Anatolia, northern Iraq, and central Syria. From this area, the V88 branch migrated to the Levant, where it exists in 1-4% of people. Then to Egypt around 7,500 years ago, where I believe it is about 5% or so. It then moved westwards across the Maghreb, and can be found in highest proportions in Berber groups. It exists in high numbers in all the Sahel people, 54% in Nigeria and Cameroon, 40% of Hausa. It's found in Rwanda, South Africa, Namibia, Angola, Congo, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, Ivory Coast, Guinea Bissau. That's the type of spread you would expect from a haplogroup that entered Africa 8000 years ago. Haplogroup I is nowhere near that prominent anywhere in Africa or the Middle East. So it's unlikely that we're talking about a neolithic migration of any size. My guess is that we're talking about a migrant from the historical period, like a Roman soldier, Visigoth Muslim convert expelled from Spain with the Moors, or a Crusader, or a Sassanian soldier. Something like that. It could even be Ottoman since my ancestor was an official with the Ottoman government in Egypt in the 1600s. They liked to appoint Georgians and people from the Caucasus into positions of power, but I've yet to see any evidence of Anatolians or Caucasians in my group.


as to my own subclade within I2c2, its also found in a tribe that had historical connections to the Abna (https://iranicaonline.org/articles/abna-term) (descendants of Sassanian soldiers), Khawlan, a big y was ordered for it, if it turns out to be clade with mine, well then there is your answer.

This is very interesting. How do you know of this connection? Surnames?

jkotl0327
04-23-2021, 01:20 AM
.

Hello bunduqdari!

I'm also I2c2, under Y16419>Y86519. That's the Jewish branch. We have a good number of Ashkenazi Jews, almost completely from Eastern rather than Western Europe who are within the subclade, but so far any definitive links to outside groups haven't been established. There is one person, on 23andme not ftDNA, who is likely of Mountain Jewish origin, but by surname can only be definitively identified as an Eastern (non-Ashkenazi/Sephardi) Jew from former Soviet lands. Our subclade may be linked through him to the aforementioned Palestinians/Lebanese, or possibly to the surrounding peoples of the Caucasus who the Mountain Jews lived near. There is also the possibility that the subclade is linked to the Aegean individuals through Sea People migrations, however I believe there are I2c2 Greeks on ftDNA and I don't match them at any level. We don't form a unique subclade with the Arabian people either, we each have our individual subclades under Y16419. If you ever stumble upon any other Middle Eastern I2c2 individuals, I'd love to hear all about it.

jkotl0327
04-23-2021, 01:51 AM
44468

The latest statistics from the I2c project.
Unfortunately I haven't had time to put the STRs in a sheet and look for differences, but some samples I believe are worth paying special attention to:

- 454894 (Germany): My original suspicion was a Jewish individual who wasn't tested specifically enough to go into the subclade, just based on the nationality, but a quick glance at the STRs shows numerous differences from the Jewish branch that make me doubt a Jewish origin for this individual, definitely something to keep an eye on.
- 342792 (Serbia): Falls into a subclade with an individual (I1a1a2a1b they call it) from Russia, almost certainly of Caucasian origin, and an Armenian, interesting implications for the Southeast European members of the branch.
- 298823 (Greece): I assumed the abundance of I2c2 Aegean Greeks would indicate a deeply rooted cluster there, but this Greek at least falls into a subclade (I1a1a2a1c) with a Russian national, again likely Caucasian.
- 504124 (Mexico): If this is who I think it is on ftDNA, they have a paper trail patrilineal ancestor in Spain going back to 1520, but this person is I-BY16408, right together with an Armenian.
- 163679 (England): Caught my attention because he is in a subclade completely on his own, I1a1a2a1g, his closest connection coming at the I-Z26403 root.

We also have the latest for Nevgen Y16419 predictions:
44469

Most on here seem to be Caucasians and Jews, I am planning to target the Syrian and Iraqi individuals to determine whether they are closer to northern subclades in Turkey and the Caucasus, or perhaps the Jewish and/or Arabian subclades.

IronHorse
04-23-2021, 10:12 AM
44473

this is the result of the str clustering tool from
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/yClustering.html

pasted data from I2c project.

jkotl0327
06-08-2021, 05:15 PM
45081

Thought it might be time to post some updates:

- The clade has a new splitter in addition to the Armenian who was there before. YF85803 is under I-Y16419* and the sample's origin is not yet known, if it becomes available on Yfull I will add it, or anyone who knows what this person's origin is please feel free to add it if they consent.
45082

- The recent study out of Turkey had one sample, SRS8752624, under I-BY3335 with only one other individual, an Armenian who was there previously. This sample's GEDMATCH ID has not been made available as of yet, so it isn't clear whether or not he is of Armenian origin. Once it is public I will add his origins.
45083

- I-A1143, a relatively large subclade containing individuals of Caucasian, Turkish, and Italian origin (TMRCA 3500 ybp) has another splitter in addition to the Turkish individual from an older study. This sample, YF11096, is of Caucasian, specifically North Ossetian, origin.
45084

As far as I am aware, there have been four recent TMRCA changes as of the release of Yfull v9.00 at the beginning of the year, if I missed any, please feel free to correct me.

- The clade I-Z26403, which encompasses most of I-Y16419, had its TMRCA moved back from 3800 ybp to 3900 YBP.
- I-FT121460, the Saudi subclade, had its TMRCA moved from 425 ybp to 500 ybp with the addition of a third Saudi sample, YF81563.
- With the addition of my sample, YF80928, the TMRCA of the Ashkenazi Jewish subclade, I-Y86519, has moved from 300 ybp to 225 ybp, which is where it was a year ago in v8.05.
- I-Y16418, a relatively large clade including a study sample from Sardinia, a Bulgarian, and five Armenians, had its TMRCA moved from 3000 ybp to 3100 ybp.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y16649/

IronHorse
06-08-2021, 05:54 PM
This sample, YF11096, is of Caucasian, specifically North Ossetian, origin.

this sample is for Mamsurov, they're from the Tagaour clan in Ossetia, they should have Armenian origin


Allusion has been made to the Dygorty Ossets ; we were now
among another tribe, the Tagaour, the supposed descendants of a
fugitive king of Armenia, whose name they have inherited.

https://archive.org/stream/Travel1876TelferCrimeaCaucasus/Travel_1876_Telfer_Crimea_Caucasus_djvu.txt

Armenians fall under all subclades of I-Y16418, except the Jewish and the Saudi branches, and they're both young, I think there should be some intermediate location where cousins of these two branches might show up, I think a good candidate to start with is the Iraqi from the I2c project, I have a feeling he could cluster with either, by STR values though, he is closer to the Jewish individuals than the Saudi.

jkotl0327
06-08-2021, 06:06 PM
this sample is for Mamsurov, they're from the Tagaour clan in Ossetia, they should have Armenian origin



https://archive.org/stream/Travel1876TelferCrimeaCaucasus/Travel_1876_Telfer_Crimea_Caucasus_djvu.txt

Armenians fall under all subclades of I-Y16418, except the Jewish and the Saudi branches, and they're both young, I think there should be some intermediate location where cousins of these two branches might show up, I think a good candidate to start with is the Iraqi from the I2c project, I have a feeling he could cluster with either, by STR values though, he is closer to the Jewish individuals than the Saudi.

Thank you for the information on Mamsurov, I noticed the Iraqi individual when you made the tree, do you have any information about their more specific origins?

IronHorse
06-08-2021, 06:11 PM
Thank you for the information on Mamsurov, I noticed the Iraqi individual when you made the tree, do you have any information about their more specific origins?

when we could see surnames from the project, his family name was آل کاشِف الغِطاء

I found an article on them

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Kashif_al-Ghita'_Family

IronHorse
06-16-2021, 03:33 AM
Armenians fall under all subclades of I-Y16418, except the Jewish and the Saudi branches

since the start of this thread, no one attempted to theorize for the linguistic affiliation of early I-Y16418 people. It might seem easy to associate it with early Armenian speakers, Big-Y tests and SNP tests show that they do fall under most known subclades, however, Georgian members are poorly tested (few SNP tests and only one Big-Y) compared to Armenian members, even though the lineage exists in equal frequencies in both nations

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/georgia/about
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/armeniadnaproject/about/background

the earliest I-Y16418 was from Lchashen-Metsamor culture, it is close to the age of the subclade, I think its fair to say that whatever these people spoke was the original language of early I-Y16418 people, but was it Armenian ?

see:
Armenia as Xenophon saw it (https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Asia/Armenia/_Texts/KURARM/9*.html)


In Xenophon's time the Armens had not yet occupied the plain of Ararat, which was then inhabited by Saspeirs, Alarodians (Urarteans) and the oldest native tribes.

so what language did these people speak ? Urartean ? Kartvelian ? or maybe an Indo-European sibling of Armenian ? I don't know

and where did I-Y16418 come from ? ultimately Europe but when and how ?