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Fire Haired
10-10-2013, 01:12 AM
http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/Scythiancomb2.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=s6ER3ZgdNBYPdM&tbnid=5NThhJegduTlFM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britam.org%2FCamReaArmy.html&ei=ripRUovqJsm2yAG6sICwBA&psig=AFQjCNECfR_XNwMLOY3s-gnxyQcIxf03wA&ust=1381137368138188)
Indo Iranian and Tocharian are two Indo European languages their ancestral forms started to migrate out of Yamna culture in Russia deep into Asia at earliest 5,000ybp(my opinion). I am trying to figure out basically what the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color percentages of those people were unless they were a mix of very different people in eastern Europe.

For mtDNA I only counted Caucasian haplogroups since they inter married with Mongliods so much in asia and their Mongliod mtDNA haplogroups are typical for Siberian, Mongolian, Hunnic, and Chinese samples from the Iron age so they almost definitely did not bring them from Russia. It is true that Mongliod mtDNA C surprisingly popular in Neolithic Ukraine cultures ancestral to Yamna but still it cant explain all their Mongliod mtDNA. I also took pretty much all Caucasian mtDNA found in Huns, Mongols, Siberians, and Chinese from the Iron age most are typical for Indo Iranians U2e, U4, U5a, H, T1, K. Except shockingly mainly Near eastern U subclades U1, U3, and U7 are in Chinese and even Indo Iranian samples. This my mean some type of contact with China or just people around China, Mongolia, and Siberia with Near eastern's possibly from around Pakistan. Hopefully can help explain Near eastern southwest Asian and west Asian (globe13) in western China, Mongolia, and south Siberia that usually exceeds North European which would come from Indo Iranians and Tocharian's.

mtDNA=83
U=29 35%(U5=16(U5a=13(U5a1=9),U2=5(U2e=4(U2e1=1), U4=4(U4*=1), U*=1, U7=1, U1=1)
T=16 19.3%(T1=8(T1a=3), T3=3, T*=2, T2=1, T2a1b-T4=1)
H=16 19.3%(H?=7, H5=1, U2a1=1, H6=1, H2a1=1)
K=6 7.2%(K2b=1)
I=3 3.6%(I3=2)
J=3 3.6%(J1=2)
W=1 1.2%
H or U=3 3.6%
U5 or J=1 1.2%

Y DNA=19: R1a1=18(R1a1a=7), C(notC3)=1

Pigmentation from Genes
Skin color=8: fair to medium=8
Hair color=10: blonde-light brown=6, Brown=3, Dark Brown=1
eye color=22: blue or green=15, brown=7


With the 83 mtDNA samples the best guess of their mtDNA is U=30-40%(U5a1=20%, U2e=5-10%, U4=5-10%), H=15-30%(mainly in order H6, H2, H1, H3, and H5), T=15-20%(T1=10-20%, T2=1-5%, T3=1-5%), J=1-10%(mainly J1 then probably Euro J1c), I=0.1-5%(at least some I3), W=0.1-5%. The U5a1, U2e, and U4 all are extremely popular in Mesolithic mtDNA in eastern Europe. And like I say in Chronology of European I think mtDNA U5 would have come to Europe as U about 50,000-60,000ybp and developed into U5 while in Europe about 50,000ybp. U2 since it is in the oldest mtDNA sample in Europe 37,985 years old it would have arrived probably over 40,000ybp and developed into U2e. U4 is estimated as 25,000 years old and I think either originated in Europe or migrated to Europe 15,000-25,000ybp. The rest of their mtDNA is typical for farming Europeans in Neloithic age and all the ages after that. High amount of H then also good amount of T and the existence of I,W, and J.

Sapporo
10-10-2013, 01:22 AM
Apparently my mt-DNA was found at a Scythian grave site?


Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia
Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture
Mongolia
Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 6 [OKG-6-2, 3] F + inf
400-200 BC

HV2 - 2 samples found in same grave of 16217C, 00072C, 00073G, 00152C, +7025 HinfI, -14766 MseI

source: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

"Burials at Pazyryk in the Altay Mountains have included some spectacularly preserved Scythians of the "Pazyryk culture" – including the Ice Maiden of the 5th century BC."

source: Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0048904

Fire Haired
10-10-2013, 01:47 AM
But something different is how high T may have been in Indo Iranians and Tocherians 15-20% and that all may have been T1 almost all T in Ancient European mtDNA that has subclade identified is under subclade T2. T1 according to (Mitochondrial DNA Signals of Late Glacial Recolonization of Europe from Near Eastern Refugia (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3376494/)) arrived in Europe as T1a about 15,000 years ago. Its high amount in Indo Iranians is unique and can give an idea of were exactly in Europe at least part of their maternal ancestry originated. It is supringly low J is and that there is no X. The H subclades so far from Indo Iranians is H6(mainly in central asia and eastern Europe), H2(mainly in eastern Europe), and H5(mainly in the Near east). I got those regions fro the subclades from (Learning about mtDNA haplogroup H) (http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/20).

With 19 y DNA samples they were definitely very heavily R1a1a specifically Indo Iranian and Tocharian subclade R1a1a1b2 Z93. The C(not C3) most likely is from Mongliod inter marriage. R1a1 pops up in multiple sites they spread it a ton in asia that is why it is one of the main Y DNA hg's of central Asia and Indo Iranian speakers. I think it is pretty for sure they spread R1a1a1b2 Z93 and possibly also R1b1a1 M73 and J2b but either way I would think they had been around 90% or more Y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93. But that does not really give an idea of were they originated by looking at high R1a Europeans, Because around 5,000ybp Yamna culture also expanded more west in Europe with Corded ware culture which spoke the ancestral language to Balto Slavic and spread R1a1a1b1 Z283(my opinon) the main Y DNA haplogroup of eastern Europe close to 50% of total Y DNA. R1a1a M17 most likely originated and spread out of around Ukraine and Russia so that's all we can say about their Y DNA(R1a1 FTDNA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familytreedna.com%2Fpublic%2F r1a%2Fdefault.aspx&ei=8wRWUqrvMaOTyQHQwIGIDw&usg=AFQjCNF0ys_LAn-8I8c7XszBljvcOUuzYA&sig2=5pSYX95eRdWKeK3UTZGWDQ)). Most of their ancestry may have been from a people R1a1a1b S224 Indo Europeans conquered.

With their hair and eye color it is seems they were very light haired and eyed possibly mainly. It is not nearly enough samples to get a perfect idea of their percentages but they definitely were in the same range as modern central, eastern, and northern Europeans. Probably around 40-60% fair hair(not only yellow) and over 60% light eyes so I guess they would fit best with people around the Baltic sea, northwestern Russia, and Scandinavia. Some very light haired and eyed people that pop up in modern Indo Iranians speakers in the Near east and south Asia.

Out of 10 hair color samples red hair did not pop up but even for Irish would not be a surprise. 3,000 year old man with brown head hair and red facial hair(Cherchen man (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCherche n_Man&ei=twVWUsOAD47OyAHTzIHIDw&usg=AFQjCNGwWxIzIjuhQKLtftSc-7ZvEjHbyw&sig2=CmGcMVh3Gs0rzBtuyQGi1Q)) was found in Tarim Basin China I think most likely Indo Iranian or Tocharian. The Budhni a Scythian tribe in modern day Ukriane were described by Greek Historian Herodtus as all having bright red hair(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FScythia ns&ei=wAZWUrC1L8bhyQGmzYDADA&usg=AFQjCNHWu2E9D2Xes0l35wOQUiuk29m3-A&sig2=caL4olIJ3Jp2-QnZ_LK3fg)) and today Ukriane has under 1% red hair(click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEUQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theapricity.com%2Fforum%2Fsho wthread.php%3F35882-New-Hair-and-Eye-color-statistics-(2011)&ei=3wZWUs7vJLGyygH-xIHADQ&usg=AFQjCNG1V1r38hvFfdhSjnN5K2j6DmuPUw&sig2=t4ZEmLOr2iHof3JxDmBwug) and here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fgenetics%2Forig ins_of_red_hair.shtml&ei=_gZWUt69DaXayAHI5oDQDQ&usg=AFQjCNEP1vrHeoa6NjY8zkDGe4ZGqrCHfg&sig2=cTonw91Bqcs4qnCHlk9HVg)). The Tocharian's were described by Chinese as being red and blonde haired and there is ancient Chinese art depicting Tocharian's as red haired. Red hair does pop up in modern day Indo Iranian speakers in the Near east(Origin and ancient history of red hair (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91491-Origin-and-ancient-History-of-red-hair)). Today red hair is kind of isolated in two parts of Europe western Europe and Volga Russia those are the only areas of Europe with 1% or more red hair. It seems the people who spoke the ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocharian had 1% or more red hair which maybe points to their ancestry mainly coming from around Volga Russia were red hair is 14% of the Udmurts.

Fire Haired
10-10-2013, 01:49 AM
Apparently my mt-DNA was found at a Scythian grave site?


Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia
Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture
Mongolia
Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 6 [OKG-6-2, 3] F + inf
400-200 BC

HV2 - 2 samples found in same grave of 16217C, 00072C, 00073G, 00152C, +7025 HinfI, -14766 MseI

source: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

"Burials at Pazyryk in the Altay Mountains have included some spectacularly preserved Scythians of the "Pazyryk culture" – including the Ice Maiden of the 5th century BC."

source: Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0048904
I guess you may have a common ancestor to those remains on the maternal line maybe 4,000-5,000 years ago.

kenji.aryan
01-10-2015, 05:43 PM
My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html
and it also found in one royal viking grave.

parasar
01-10-2015, 06:12 PM
My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html
and it also found in one royal viking grave.

If that is the Oseberg burial U7 you are referring to, that one had interesting symbolism.
Note the folded legs, Buddhist form of swastikas, and the form (mudra) of the closed eyes.
http://vikingrune.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/oseberg_buddha.jpg

Kurd
01-10-2015, 07:02 PM
My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html
and it also found in one royal viking grave.

I just realized you are a U7. I started a thread yesterday under autosomal discussing U7, W, and HV2. I have tabulated and mapped frequency among South Asian groups.

Kurd
01-10-2015, 07:08 PM
If that is the Oseberg burial U7 you are referring to, that one had interesting symbolism.
Note the folded legs, Buddhist form of swastikas, and the form (mudra) of the closed eyes.
http://vikingrune.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/oseberg_buddha.jpg

I started a thread yesterday under autosomal detailing frequency of U7, W, and HV2 among S and SC Asian populations. I have tabulated and mapped the frequencies.

Anything you can contribute under that thread to further the understanding of the origins of any of those lineages and overlapping with some west asian groups would be most appreciated.

Caspian
01-10-2015, 08:06 PM
My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html
and it also found in one royal viking grave.

Mine too :)

kenji.aryan
01-10-2015, 08:19 PM
Mine too :)

Did you use jameslick mtdna tool http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/ ?
and can we share our results i mean top match so that we can know whether we have same mutation's

Caspian
01-10-2015, 08:21 PM
No, I haven't used up to now.

kenji.aryan
01-10-2015, 08:26 PM
No, I haven't used up to now.

maybe you can use it now and i will Pm you my result.

jesus
01-10-2015, 08:29 PM
Did you use jameslick mtdna tool http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/ ?
and can we share our results i mean top match so that we can know whether we have same mutation's
What subclade do you belong to kenji ?

kenji.aryan
01-10-2015, 08:30 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA%20U7/default.aspx?section=mtresults

Caspian
01-10-2015, 08:33 PM
maybe you can use it now and i will Pm you my result.

Would you clear the your inbox? I can't reply it.

kenji.aryan
01-10-2015, 08:35 PM
Would you clear the your inbox? I can't reply it.

I just did.

Bulat
01-09-2017, 12:16 PM
History of the study and linguistic analysis of the Tocharian languages


(Note from editor: BEHPS begins publishing a series of works about the Tocharians written by great orientalist - Sverchkov Leonid Mikhailovich. This researcher has done a excellent work and analysis of linguistic, archaeological and historical materials on the Tocharians. Not everyone is familiar with the researchers of this orientalist, who, by the way, now beginning to be confirmed by the data of DNA-genealogy and DNA archaeology...)


L.M. Sverchkov

The Researchers drew attention to the particularly close ties uniting Tocharian with the Thracian-Phrygian, Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages (R. Kellogg, E. Schwentner, W. Krause, W. Porzig, E. Benveniste).

In the determination of the place of Tocharian language in relation to the Indo-European family of languages D. Adams used a single statistical method (which has already been tested before), but Adams is a little upgraded this method. In addition to the phonetic and morphological characteristics were used in the calculation and in the lexical correspondences. The result show the proximity the Proto-Tocharian language with the Proto-Germanic language at the stage of common proto-unity; the next contact matches is Greek language; then Baltic-Slavic languages, Latin language, Indian language, and other dialects.

Greek-Tocharian contacts were on the same stage when both of them had contact at least with a single representative from a not indoeuropean language. The time of separation Proto-Tocharian language by the opinion D. Adams refers to the second half of the fourth Millennium BC, when the speakers of Tocharian language were the so-called “the North-Western group”, which occupied the territory between the Elbe and the Dniester, North of the Carpathians. This dialect community, according to the author, corresponds to the archaeological Globular Amphora culture, common in Eastern Germany, Poland, Galicia and Volhynia, as well as Romania and Moldova. After leaving this region Proto-Tocharians in the first half of the III Millennium BC had contact native speakers of Greek, perhaps somewhere in Moldavia. This migration to the East was a through the territory of Black Sea and then through Asian steppes, where Proto-Tocharians met with the representatives of indo-aryans. And then, after the representatives of Indo-Aryans were incorporated in the Tocharians, they all together migrated to East, parallely on the way to the Tarim (Chinese Turkestan) including the new tribes in the Tocharians.


Note from editor BEHPS: The opinion of R. Kellogg, E. Schwentner, W. Krause, W. Porzig, E. Benveniste about the particularly close ties uniting Tocharian with the Thracian-Phrygian, Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages is confirmed by the data of DNA-genealogy (according by B.A. Muratov). See scheme 1.

http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2016-10/tocharians.jpg

Scheme 1. Ancestors of Tocharians by the data of DNA-genealogy (B.A. Muratov).

According to this scheme, the representatives of Proto-Tocharian languages with the representatives of Proto-Celtic, Proto-Baltic-Slavic and Proto-Germanic languages were the descendants of the R1a-Z282 subclade



As always, absolutely original idea about the origin of the Tocharians was offered in 1962 amazing scholar W.B. Henning (1908–1967). Initially, Proto-Tocharians were a great and numerous people consisting of many tribes who spoke differing dialects among themselves. As archaic Tocharian languages separated from the Indo-European community relatively early, they had to get into the middle Eastern sphere of influence and therefore leave traces in the written traditions of Mesopotamia. If Indo-Aryans after the breakup of Indo-Iranian unity were found in the sources about 1500 BC, so we can expect a mention of the Tocharians in 2000 BC or even earlier. In this context, the author draws attention to the name of the country and people of Guti (Kuti), or Gutian people (Kutium) for the first time in the cuneiform documents Dating to the late early dynastic period (XXIII century BC), the Akkadian dynasty during the reign of Naram-sin — one of the greatest conquerors in the history of Babylon. W.B. Henning quotes an excerpt from “Weidner Chronicle”, which describes the fury of the God Marduk, turned against Naram-sin, the tool of which are the hordes of Gutian people. Under the blows of the Gutian people collapsed Akkadian Kingdom, in Mesopotamia and began the era of Gutian dynasty (about 2100 BC), which lasted, according to various estimates, 91 or 124–125 years. To control all territories, Gutian people chose the place of his stay - the mountains of Western Iran, somewhere in the valley of the Lower Zab, and they migrated back relatively recently, during the life of Naram-sin. W.B. Henning pays tribute to a version of German scientist A. Ungnad about migration of Gutian people coming from the East, specifically from “Russian Turkestan" but W.B. Henning regards as the probable point of the outcome - the steppes of Southern Russia, where also Gutian people migrated into Mesopotamia through Derbent [10] (Henning, 1978, p. 217-219).

After leaving Gutian people from Mesopotamia some part of Gutian people remained on the northern borders, and from time to time mention of them and can be found in subsequent periods. Often in ancient texts, for example, in the inscriptions of Hammurabi (1792-1750 BC) Is indicated on the physical and ethnic difference frontier peoples, "whose hills far away and whose languages were strange".

The inscription of Hammurabi, along with Gutian people contains the name of the country - Tukriš, whose lands were situated somewhere east or northeast of Gutian people. Also Tukriš (together with Gutian people) and their king - Kiklipatalli mentioned in the story of Boğazky of prehistoric king of Elam. Constantly territorial and chronological relationship Gutian people and Tukri gave an opportunity to put forward the version from W.B. Henning about that Tukri and Gutian people were two closely allied brother nations that came together to Western Persia and who left it together shortly before the end of the third millennium (Henning, 1978 , pp. 220-221).

At the end of the third millennium BC the part of these peoples migrated from western Iran to China, where were scattered over a wide area from Chinese Turkestan to the west of Gansu province, p. Yellow River [11]. Part of the population began to lead a farmer life, and another part - nomadic, that over time, along with the geographical factor, resulted in linguistic isolation. From West Gansu more mobile nomads migrated more to the east, where in the II century BC their history were written in the ancient Chinese chronicles.

In chinese annals were recorded by names of Guti with two hieroglyphs, sounding like modern Chinese - Ye-chih (Yuezhi). Thus, Guti (hence Kuči) and Ye-chih absolutely equivalent, while the name is identical to the later Tukri Tuγri and Tuχār. In later times as a Tuγri, and Kuči could serve as political and geographical indication throughout the country, stretching from Kucha to Turfan, and known as the "Land of the four Tuγri: Kuči (Turk Ksn) to the west, Argi / Qarašahr the east, Turfan at north-east and the area north of Turfan - Bišbalik (Henning, 1978, pp. 221-226).

In chinese annals were recorded by names of Guti with two hieroglyphs, sounding like modern Chinese - Ye-chih. Thus, Guti (hence Kuči) and Ye-chih absolutely equivalent, while the name is identical to the later - Tukri, Tuγri and Tuχār. In later times as a Tuγri, and Kuči could serve as political and geographical indication throughout the country, stretching from Kucha to Turfan, and known as the "Land of the four Tuγri: Kuči (Turk Ksn) to the west, Argi / Qarašahr the east, Turfan at north-east and the area north of Turfan - Bišbalik (Henning, 1978, pp 221-226.).

10. By analogy with the situation of Middle East at the end of III thousand BC we have data of Herodotus, about the invasion of the Cimmerians and Scythians in the late eighth century BC.

11. In the confirmation of the idea W.B. Henning also were found materials, which when comparing the prehistoric archaeological materials from ancient China (published by E. Hertzfeld) and Iran gave characteristics of a single archeological culture. Their the similarities are so identical, that excludes any possibility of an independent autochthon origin.

The fully an article (sorry but only in Russian language)
http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2016-10/Tocharian_language_3_20161126_10_[1_2]_3_BEHPS_2016_10_4.pdf

parasar
01-09-2017, 04:26 PM
...

W.B. Henning pays tribute to a version of German scientist A. Ungnad about migration of Gutian people coming from the East, specifically from “Russian Turkestan" but W.B. Henning regards as the probable point of the outcome - the steppes of Southern Russia, where also Gutian people migrated into Mesopotamia through Derbent [10] (Henning, 1978, p. 217-219).
...

At the end of the third millennium BC the part of these peoples migrated from western Iran to China, where were scattered over a wide area from Chinese Turkestan to the west of Gansu province, p. Yellow River [11]. Part of the population began to lead a farmer life, and another part - nomadic, that over time, along with the geographical factor, resulted in linguistic isolation. From West Gansu more mobile nomads migrated more to the east, where in the II century BC their history were written in the ancient Chinese chronicles.

...

Narain's theory is in line, except that Narain feels the Togri and the Indo Europeans themselves originated from further to the east - from Gansu.

"...As we have just mentioned, the people who emerge as Tocharians in Western sources are often equated with a branch of the Yuezhi of Chinese sources who were driven first from the Gansu borderlands by the Xiongnu, then further west by the Wusun, arriving at the Oxus, and going on to conquer Bactria and establish the Kushan empire. Narain argues that once one accepts the equation Tocharian = Yuezhi, then one is forced to follow both the Chinese historical sources (which for him would propel the Yuezhi back to at least the 7th century BC) and the geographical reference of their first cited historical location (Gansu) to the conclusion that they had lived there ‘from times immemorial’. Narain infers that they had been there at least since the Qijia culture of c. 2000 BC and probably even earlier in the Yangshao culture of the Neolithic. This would render the Tocharians as virtually native to Gansu (and earlier than the putative spread of the Neolithic to Xinjiang) and Narain goes so far as to argue that the Indo-Europeans themselves originally dispersed from this area westwards.

Seldom has a tail so small wagged a dog so large." from Mallory and Mair (2000), p. 281.

parasar
01-09-2017, 04:52 PM
From Dunhuang and Qilian mountains of Gansu.
https://books.google.com/books?id=8FVsWq31MtMC&pg=PA14

Chapter 6 Indo-Europeans in Inner Asia
http://dl.yazdanpress.ir/BOOKS/HISTORY%20AND%20GEOGRAPHY/The_Cambridge_History_of_Early_Inner_Asia(marked). pdf

Bulat
01-10-2017, 10:31 AM
In English only Abstract, sorry.

Abstract of the article

Great Chemurchek migration from France to Altai at the beginning of the III-rd millennium B.C. - 1



A.A. Kovalev

The paper is devoted to the Chemurchek culture that existed on the territory of Dzhungaria and Mongolian Altai ca. 26001700 kyr BC. This culture appears to have a considerable num-ber of very close analogies in the Middle and Late Neolithic of South and Western France.

Numerous parallels can be seen in the con-struction of burial structures (overlapping perimetral cairns, burial corridors with dry stone side-walls), in the specific style of stone statues, and in the peculiar forms of vessels. In the authors opinion, such a the close similarity between the cultural phe-nomena, separated by the distance of over 6,500 kilometers, can only be explained by a migration from the west of Europe to the Mongolian Altai. The results of this research can throw light on the problem of the origin of Tokharians. The Tokharian language belongs to the western Indo-European languages and is closely related to the Proto-Germanic and Proto-Italian languages. According to the glottochronological data, it was exactly du-ring the period under consideration that the tokharian-speaking people came from the west to the heart of Asia.


http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2017-1/stone_statues_neolithic_europe_&_chemurchek.png

Keywords: Early Bronze Age, European Megalithic cultures, Dzhungaria, Mongolian Altay, Chemurchek culture, Tokharians, Tocharians.

Bulat
01-11-2017, 01:58 PM
Tocharians-Turanians and Pseudotocharians-Tarimians. The traces of Chemurchek migration


B.A. Muratov

The term the Tocharians - not lucky in the science. Originally, after the works of the German researcher Walter Bruno Henning, the scientists gave this name for Arsi people and Kusan people from Tarim basin. Accordingly the lands of the Tarim basin, where lived Arsi and Kushan was called a ancient Tocharistan, in contrast to the modern Tocharistan, which is located to the South of the Tarim basin.

But there a lot of questions about why ancient Tocharistan was located to the North of the Tarim, than say a modern Tocharistan, where now live the Iranian peoples? Why done a name Tocharians for the inhabitants of the Tarim basin, because Arsi and Kusans was not talking at Iranian languages, and also the languages of Arsi-Kusan have relation with to Thracian-Phrygian, Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.

Well, named the Tocharians the peoples of the Tarim: Arsi and Kushan - no problem, it would be possible to close this topic. But there were found archival documents about true Tocharians Turanians (East-Iranian) tribes , whose descendants also live still in modern Tocharistan, and whose the genetic line known, the descendants of these true Tocharians R1a-Z2125, that is exactly the same subclade as cluster of most other Iranian and Turanian peoples - Pashtuns, Baluchi, Bashkirs, Karachays, Kyrgyzs, etc.

Also, need to figure out who was Tarimians, whose language was akin to the Thracian-Phrygian, Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.

The better than researcher A.A. Kovalev this question - nobody failed to install. A.A. Kovalev on the basis of archaeological material revealed that Tarim people are descendants of the population of Chemurchek archaeological culture from Dzungaria and Southern Siberia (2 600-1 700 BC). Chemurchek people the descendants of the Neolithic population from France and Switzerland, which in the IV-III Millennium migrated from Europe to the territory of Southern Siberia and Dzungaria. also this question was proved by data of Paleo-DNA, the mitochondrial haplogroup of Chemurcheks from Ayna-Bulak I-3 had European origin .

Very close to unraveling the origin Tarimians approached and V.V. Napolskikh, which found that, Tocharian-Uralic areal connection was the basis of Tocharian attribution of Seima-Turbino phenomenon, also with this version about relationship of Tarimians with Seima-Turbino phenomenon worked A.A. Kovalev.

What were reasons for migration, the population of Neolithic France and Switzerland to the far Southern Siberia and Dzungaria in the IV-III Millennium BC, the distance - will agree with me, are decent 6.5 thousand km.

As the version is the - search of a land where the sun rises. Perhaps there were still stories about coming once the ancestors of these people from the East, and they wanted to find the land of their ancestors. By the way according ethnogenomics, the main haplogroups of Europeans R1a and R1b as their ancestral paragroup - R1 originated in Southern Siberia.

The one group of tribes (probably led by the priests) went to the East to find the sun and find the land of the ancestors...

The East in the beliefs of the ancient Indo-Europeans was associated with the country good and Holy , while the West was considered a country of death, because every day the sun went down and disappeared from the horizon. Indirectly on the grounds of religious thinking as one of the causes of migration indicated by the fact that along with the men, went also women , i.e. families, it was the migration of a whole people.


http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2017-1/chemurchek_shaman.jpg



Perhaps the traces of this migration can be found also among the population of Mezhovskaya archaeological culture of the early Bronze age. The part of Mezhovskaya also lived in the Kapova cave in the Southern Ural. The, Paleo-DNA of Mezhovskaya culture from Kapova cave (Shulgan Tash) revealed subclade R1a-Z645 and R1b, and R1a-Z645 with possible lines of the European R1a-Z283, but because of the poor quality of paleo-material of Mezhovskaya - i can not to say this fact more correctly. And it is very significant that among population of Mezhovskaya in addition to R1a-Z645 was discovered also and man with haplogroup R1b, because it is the representatives of haplogroup R1b are currently distributed among the inhabitants of Western and Central Europe. And the languages of Germanic and Celtic peoples related with languages of Tarimians.




whole article see here (In Russian)
http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=RUS&p=4_10012017_1_2