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Saad2016
05-21-2018, 12:58 AM
https://i.gyazo.com/3d835f599d9c2328c60af52771c2d8b7.png
https://i.gyazo.com/2f0785fd7e39d9c0241a01881ee8425b.png

Source : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

The Jats represent a large ethnic community that has inhabited the northwest region of India and Pakistan for several thousand years. It is estimated the community has a population of over 123 million people. Many historians and academics have asserted that the Jats are descendants of Aryans, Scythians, or other ancient people that arrived and lived in northern India at one time. Essentially, the specific origin of these people has remained a matter of contention for a long time. This study demonstrated that the origins of Jats can be clarified by identifying their Y-chromosome haplogroups and tracing their genetic markers on the Y-DNA haplogroup tree. A sample of 302 Y-chromosome haplotypes of Jats in India and Pakistan was analyzed. The results showed that the sample population had several different lines of ancestry and emerged from at least nine different geographical regions of the world. It also became evident that the Jats did not have a unique set of genes, but shared an underlying genetic unity with several other ethnic communities in the Indian subcontinent. A startling new assessment of the genetic ancient origins of these people was revealed with DNA science.

Saad2016
05-21-2018, 02:53 AM
Jats generally have huge amount baloch component, isnt that basically neolithic Iranian? That means large part of their dna is from the indus valley folks

Also which branch of Q they have most?

Not sure about the branch of Q. There are some "I "too. The oldest amongst all these is H. Indus valley could be H...but I am not sure.

Raza94
05-21-2018, 06:52 AM
Hey not sure if this is the right thread to ask the question on but does anyone have an idea of when Jatts first starting converting to Islam?

Saad2016
05-21-2018, 12:44 PM
Hey not sure if this is the right thread to ask the question on but does anyone have an idea of when Jatts first starting converting to Islam?

710 CE with the first Muslim general Mohammad bin Qasim entering Sindh.

https://i.gyazo.com/661d098ff2d97fd342259c19d039afb9.png

bmoney
05-21-2018, 12:47 PM
Not sure about the branch of Q. There are some "I "too. The oldest amongst all these is H. Indus valley could be H...but I am not sure.

H would be there in the IVC but not the only haplogroup

y-I would be very small in the Jats as with other South Asians

parasar
05-22-2018, 01:41 AM
H would be there in the IVC but not the only haplogroup

y-I would be very small in the Jats as with other South Asians

0 is more likely - papers such as these based on STR predictions without SNP tests circa Sep 2017 are surprising.

"For the Jat population, a dataset of 302 men was compiled consisting of 44 records from the Genographic Project database ... haplogroups for these 258 records were identified by processing their haplotypes in the Haplogroup Predictor software."

"For other ethnic groups of the Indian subcontinent, a dataset of 1,855 men representing 38 ethnic groups in Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan was compiled from the Genographic Project database (Genographic, 2016), and published sources (Sengupta et al., 2006; Zhao et al., 2009; Giroti and Talwar, 2010; Nair et al., 2011; Chennakrishnaiah et al., 2013; Lee et al., 2014). All haplogroups for these records were predetermined at source, based on examination of SNPs in the lab with actual Y-DNA samples. "

Afshar
02-15-2019, 08:55 PM
Anybody can provide a link with STR data from this paper?

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 03:44 PM
Anybody can provide a link with STR data from this paper?

Nagy et al. 2007: "Searching for the origin of Romanies: Slovakian Romani, Jats of Haryana and Jat Sikhs Y-STR data in comparison with different Romani populations."

Link: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cd78/e9c0292016975dfc76ba7257e6532ea1cde7.pdf

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 06:30 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (from above study - using NEVGEN Y-STR Haplogroup Predictor):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
1.25%


G
3
3.75%


H
1
1.25%


I
1
1.25%


J
14
17.50%


L
13
16.25%


Q
3
3.75%


R1a
33
41.25%


R1b
1
1.25%


R2
10
12.50%


TOTAL
80

Afshar
02-17-2019, 08:46 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (from above study - using NEVGEN Y-STR Haplogroup Predictor):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
1.25%


G
3
3.75%


H
1
1.25%


I
1
1.25%


J
14
17.50%


L
13
16.25%


Q
3
3.75%


R1a
33
41.25%


R1b
1
1.25%


R2
10
12.50%


TOTAL
80




Most of the Qs went to R2 i believe. Can you point out the IDs of the Q ones ?

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 09:11 PM
Most of the Qs went to R2 i believe. Can you point out the IDs of the Q ones ?

One man has the H1s haplotype and two men have the H8s haplotype

Afshar
02-17-2019, 11:04 PM
One man has the H1s haplotype and two men have the H8s haplotype

The h8s seem to be Q-m25, which also is seen in hindus from punjab.

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 11:05 PM
The h8s seem to be Q-m25, which also is seen in hindus from punjab.

It's also distributed around East Europe and Russia quite a bit. Andronovo Y-DNA perhaps?

Afshar
02-17-2019, 11:17 PM
It's also distributed around East Europe and Russia quite a bit. Andronovo Y-DNA perhaps?

Haryana/punjab seems to be a hotspot for indian Q-m25. And there seem to be different subclades of m25 present.

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 11:23 PM
Haryana/punjab seems to be a hotspot for indian Q-m25. And there seem to be different subclades of m25 present.

Could Q-M25 be linked to the high Steppe levels seen in some groups of that region (mainly Jatts)?

Afshar
02-17-2019, 11:26 PM
Could Q-M25 be linked to the high Steppe levels seen in some groups of that region (mainly Jatts)?

I dont think the frequency is that high. I recall a kashmiri pandit also had m25

aaronbee2010
02-17-2019, 11:32 PM
I dont think the frequency is that high. I recall a kashmiri pandit also had m25

I was just wondering about the correlation between M25 and Steppe levels. I believe Kashmiri Pandits have higher-than-average levels of Steppe, as they're a Brahmin group, so it would make sense for M25 to be more frequent there then for other parts of South Asia.

Afshar
02-18-2019, 09:43 AM
I was just wondering about the correlation between M25 and Steppe levels. I believe Kashmiri Pandits have higher-than-average levels of Steppe, as they're a Brahmin group, so it would make sense for M25 to be more frequent there then for other parts of South Asia.

I believe it has a kushan/hephtalite origin

aaronbee2010
02-19-2019, 10:56 PM
Another thing I would say is that the one PB Jatt Sikh who had I specifically had I1 according to two Y-STR predictors. Considering I1 (unlike I2) is exclusive to Europe, I'm guessing this particular man most likely got his Y-DNA from a British man, unless there's some undiscovered Steppe strain of I1. I would guess the former scenario to be the case, although this could be due to some error too.

Thoughts anyone?

Jatt1
02-20-2019, 06:09 AM
Another thing I would say is that the one PB Jatt Sikh who had I specifically had I1 according to two Y-STR predictors. Considering I1 (unlike I2) is exclusive to Europe, I'm guessing this particular man most likely got his Y-DNA from a British man, unless there's some undiscovered Steppe strain of I1. I would guess the former scenario to be the case, although this could be due to some error too.

Thoughts anyone?

Are British I1?

Rahuls77
02-20-2019, 07:41 AM
I was just wondering about the correlation between M25 and Steppe levels. I believe Kashmiri Pandits have higher-than-average levels of Steppe, as they're a Brahmin group, so it would make sense for M25 to be more frequent there then for other parts of South Asia.

No, Kashmiri Pandits tend to have higher Caucasian/Zagrosian, and relatively lower Steppe.

aaronbee2010
02-20-2019, 09:25 AM
No, Kashmiri Pandits tend to have higher Caucasian/Zagrosian, and relatively lower Steppe.

Thank you :)

aaronbee2010
02-20-2019, 09:34 AM
Are British I1?

I1 is seen mainly in NW Europe (including England, which has 14-16% I1). I can't think of any other way I1 would make its way into England, unless the study made an error and mistook a Romani's result for PB Jatt Sikh (the study also looked at Slovakian Romani and Haryana Jatts). Either way, I think the I1 man in that study is an anomaly, and I would ignore him.

Jatt1
02-20-2019, 09:48 AM
I1 is seen mainly in NW Europe (including England, which has 14-16% I1). I can't think of any other way I1 would make its way into England, unless the study made an error and mistook a Romani's result for PB Jatt Sikh (the study also looked at Slovakian Romani and Haryana Jatts). Either way, I think the I1 man in that study is an anomaly, and I would ignore him.

He will need a NGS of his yDNA to find out the truth. Even STRs can be helpful because there are lot many Europeans on FTDNA ySTRs Projects.

aaronbee2010
02-20-2019, 10:28 AM
He will need a NGS of his yDNA to find out the truth. Even STRs can be helpful because there are lot many Europeans on FTDNA ySTRs Projects.

The I1 FTDNA project only lets you view their STRs if you're a member :(

Jatt1
02-20-2019, 11:08 AM
The I1 FTDNA project only lets you view their STRs if you're a member :(

Sad. Which test gave him I1, does he know the subclade? YSEQ I1 panel may be useful, if it comes out to be some old subclade then he may have nothing to do with British, it may be Greek or from steppe.

aaronbee2010
02-20-2019, 11:41 AM
Sad. Which test gave him I1, does he know the subclade? YSEQ I1 panel may be useful, if it comes out to be some old subclade then he may have nothing to do with British, it may be Greek or from steppe.

He was one of the people in this study: Nagy et al. 2007: "Searching for the origin of Romanies: Slovakian Romani, Jats of Haryana and Jat Sikhs Y-STR data in comparison with different Romani populations."

Link: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cd78/e9c0292016975dfc76ba7257e6532ea1cde7.pdf

There's no way of knowing the exact identity of this person, so the only thing I could do is compare Y-STRs. Two different predictors said I1 as well.

If the I1 FTDNA project was open, that would be great lol

Jatt1
02-20-2019, 08:53 PM
He was one of the people in this study: Nagy et al. 2007: "Searching for the origin of Romanies: Slovakian Romani, Jats of Haryana and Jat Sikhs Y-STR data in comparison with different Romani populations."

Link: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/cd78/e9c0292016975dfc76ba7257e6532ea1cde7.pdf

There's no way of knowing the exact identity of this person, so the only thing I could do is compare Y-STRs. Two different predictors said I1 as well.

If the I1 FTDNA project was open, that would be great lol

You can get that information from an existing member of I1 project or can write to the I1 project administration. There are many other I1 projects under different subclades you can try to contact theirmanagers etc., and I am sure very many I1 people and project managers are members of anthrogenica and you can ask them for help. Again, what can you tell with 11 STRs, nothing much I guess?

aaronbee2010
03-03-2019, 07:04 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (from above study - using NEVGEN Y-STR Haplogroup Predictor):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
1.25%


G
3
3.75%


H
1
1.25%


I
1
1.25%


J
14
17.50%


L
13
16.25%


Q
3
3.75%


R1a
33
41.25%


R1b
1
1.25%


R2
10
12.50%


TOTAL
80




Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (various data collected by me and 2 other Punjabi Jatt users. Note the much higher sample size):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
0.28%


G
2
0.57%


H
21
5.98%


J
38
10.83%


L
106
30.20%


Q
3
0.85%


R1a
150
42.74%


R1b
2
0.57%


R2
26
7.41%


T
2
0.57%


TOTAL
351

poi
03-03-2019, 07:30 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (various data collected by me and 2 other Punjabi Jatt users. Note the much higher sample size):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
0.28%


G
2
0.57%


H
21
5.98%


J
38
10.83%


L
106
30.20%


Q
3
0.85%


R1a
150
42.74%


R1b
2
0.57%


R2
26
7.41%


T
2
0.57%


TOTAL
351




Interesting how L is the second highest... I would have thought R2 would be the second highest. Btw, there were 2 R1bs... are they related or are there multiple instances of R1b from unrelated individuals?

Jatt1
03-03-2019, 07:42 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (various data collected by me and 2 other Punjabi Jatt users. Note the much higher sample size):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
0.28%


G
2
0.57%


H
21
5.98%


J
38
10.83%


L
106
30.20%


Q
3
0.85%


R1a
150
42.74%


R1b
2
0.57%


R2
26
7.41%


T
2
0.57%


TOTAL
351




I don't believe H is that high, unless you know the H people personally chances are that they are SC who use Jatt Surnames. There are lot many more R2s, I believe.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-03-2019, 07:45 PM
I don't believe H is that high, unless you know the H people personally chances are that they are SC who use Jatt Surnames. There are lot many more R2s, I believe.

Lmao, why H is being associated with SCs? We've had couple of Muslim jatts here on the forum with H yhalo. 5-6% is not unreasonable at all, considering the immense number of jatts in the region. With that logic C jatts should be bunch of gurkhas pretending to be jatts.

Btw H is found in Kalash as well. SCs will have hard time pretending to be Kalash I'm positive.

aaronbee2010
03-03-2019, 07:58 PM
Interesting how L is the second highest... I would have thought R2 would be the second highest. Btw, there were 2 R1bs... are they related or are there multiple instances of R1b from unrelated individuals?

Many Hindu groups in North India that have loads of R1a also seem to have R2 in 2nd place (i.e. Kashmiri Pandits, Punjab and West Bengal Brahmins), so I can see why you would think that. Hell, Chaturvedis even have R2 in first place, followed by R1a.

This appears to be a phenomenon that mainly applies to Brahmins, or just upper Hindu castes. L-M357 comes under 2nd place after R1a with Punjabi Jatt Sikhs.

One R1b is a Dulai Jatt. He's half Euro, so it was hard at first to determine whether his Y-DNA (R-L23) or mtDNA (J1c7a) is Jatt. This was hard because both lineages are prevalent in both Europe and South Asia, however:

1. Z2103 was only added to the ISOGG tree in 2013. Until then, anyone who was Z2103+ would've been assigned R-L23. If his Y-DNA was Euro, then he would most likely come under R-L51 specifically, instead of R-L23 (xL51).
2. J1c7a appears to be quite frequent in SW/E/SE/NE Europe, and even Iran according to EUpedia. India wasn't mentioned although I would guess there could be J1c7a in India that came from Indo-Iranians, although this mtDNA line appears to be more frequent in Europe than India.

Based on the above, I think he's more likely to be paternally Jatt, although this is an assumption.

The other R1b is my maternal uncle.


I don't believe H is that high, unless you know the H people personally chances are that they are SC who use Jatt Surnames. There are lot many more R2s, I believe.

I looked at my results individually, as well as the other two's results individually, and H does not seem to be that rare among all of our results individually.

While most H results were something broad like H-M69, H-M52 and H-M82, there were two samples who came under H-Z4507. On YFull, there are some subclades of H-Z4507 that appear to have a really strong NW distribution. H1a1 was found in two Swat IA samples: S8194 and I6548.

R2a (particularly L295-) seems stronger in middle/upper Hindu castes that with Punjabi Jatts.

tipirneni
03-03-2019, 08:07 PM
Lmao, why H is being associated with SCs? We've had couple of Muslim jatts here on the forum with H yhalo. 5-6% is not unreasonable at all, considering the immense number of jatts in the region. With that logic C jatts should be bunch of gurkhas pretending to be jatts.

Btw H is found in Kalash as well. SCs will have hard time pretending to be Kalash I'm positive.

H is heavily found near major river basins occurring with R1a like people close to some 25-40% people, in Punjab it should be close to 10% since there are not many R1a brahmins left due to repeated invasions.

tipirneni
03-03-2019, 08:56 PM
H is heavily found near major river basins occurring with R1a like people close to some 25-40% people, in Punjab it should be close to 10% since there are not many R1a brahmins left due to repeated invasions.

All india estimates


H 20-35%
L 10-15%
R1 15-25%
R2 10-15%
J 10-15%

Together, haplogroups R1, R2, L, O, H, J2, and C characterize >90% of the Y-chromosomal variation in all socio-linguistic groups of India. Both IE- and DR-speaking populations show a high combined frequency of haplogroups C*, L1, H1, and R2. The total frequency of these four haplogroups outside of India is marginally low. There is near absence of L lineages within the IE speakers from Bihar (0%), Orissa (0%), and West Bengal (1.5%)

26284729292
03-04-2019, 05:25 AM
Lmao, why H is being associated with SCs? We've had couple of Muslim jatts here on the forum with H yhalo. 5-6% is not unreasonable at all, considering the immense number of jatts in the region. With that logic C jatts should be bunch of gurkhas pretending to be jatts.

Btw H is found in Kalash as well. SCs will have hard time pretending to be Kalash I'm positive.

I think the subclade of H will be more telling, if anything.

It's the same way M30 and U dominate south asia, but you could be a velama with U and a pashtun with M and neither define your ethnic group.

poi
03-04-2019, 05:57 AM
I think the subclade of H will be more telling, if anything.

It's the same way M30 and U dominate south asia, but you could be a velama with U and a pashtun with M and neither define your ethnic group.

Not sure about M30's frequency in modern South Asians, but 5 SwatValley IronAge samples, starting from the 1200BCE S8193.E1.L1 all the way to the 100 BCE Butkara I6549 were M30. In this forum, we have you, bmoney, me, and DrMcNinja M30. Am I missing someone?

26284729292
03-04-2019, 05:58 AM
Not sure about M30's frequency in modern South Asians, but 5 SwatValley IronAge samples, starting from the 1200BCE S8193.E1.L1 all the way to the 100 BCE Butkara I6549 were M30. In this forum, we have you, bmoney, me, and DrMcNinja M30. Am I missing someone?

M in general. I was thinking M30 because it's common, my b.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-04-2019, 06:05 AM
Not sure about M30's frequency in modern South Asians, but 5 SwatValley IronAge samples, starting from the 1200BCE S8193.E1.L1 all the way to the 100 BCE Butkara I6549 were M30. In this forum, we have you, bmoney, me, and DrMcNinja M30. Am I missing someone?

My gf is m30 too lol.

tipirneni
03-04-2019, 06:15 AM
I think the subclade of H will be more telling, if anything.

It's the same way M30 and U dominate south asia, but you could be a velama with U and a pashtun with M and neither define your ethnic group.
FTDNA major subclades M82, M69, M52. M82 & M69 has most caste people.

parasar
03-04-2019, 05:28 PM
All india estimates


H 20-35%
L 10-15%
R1 15-25%
R2 10-15%
J 10-15%

...

Comparing to Arunkumar's sampled Tamil data from a reasonable sample-set of "1,680 Y chromosomes representing 12 tribal and 19 non-tribal (caste) endogamous population"

H 20-35% 19%
L 10-15% 14.82%
R1 15-25% 12.74%
R2 10-15% 8.21%
J 10-15% 10.7%

(Some of the F* are likely in another subclade)

Going further south in South Asia to the Maldives

https://wol-prod-cdn.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/b60ab003-d7f4-444b-ba3b-0ffadf5b6a81/ajpa22256-fig-0003-m.png

aaronbee2010
03-04-2019, 06:02 PM
Comparing to Arunkumar's sampled Tamil data from a reasonable sample-set of "1,680 Y chromosomes representing 12 tribal and 19 non-tribal (caste) endogamous population"

H 20-35% 19%
L 10-15% 14.82%
R1 15-25% 12.74%
R2 10-15% 8.21%
J 10-15% 10.7%

(Some of the F* are likely in another subclade)

Going further south in South Asia to the Maldives

https://wol-prod-cdn.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/b60ab003-d7f4-444b-ba3b-0ffadf5b6a81/ajpa22256-fig-0003-m.png

Is Y-STR data available from this study? Southern Brahmins have tons of R (xR1a1a, R2a). I can understand R2a not being very common them (R2a appears to be prevalent in NW, NE and E South Asia, but not much anywhere else), however the relative lack of R1a1a-M17 is baffling to me. Is this not a reliable SNP to use? Do these Brahmins overwhelmingly come under basal R1a, R1b, R2b or even something else altogether?

Basal R1a, R1b and R2b are all pretty rare in India as far as I know. There are a few select populations that will have more of a certain group due to founder effects (i.e. Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatts having noticeable R2b, Agarhias and various Pakistani groups having noticeable R1b). Do you have any idea what this mystery R prevalent in South Indian Brahmins is?

tipirneni
03-04-2019, 07:23 PM
Is Y-STR data available from this study? Southern Brahmins have tons of R (xR1a1a, R2a). I can understand R2a not being very common them (R2a appears to be prevalent in NW, NE and E South Asia, but not much anywhere else), however the relative lack of R1a1a-M17 is baffling to me. Is this not a reliable SNP to use? Do these Brahmins overwhelmingly come under basal R1a, R1b, R2b or even something else altogether?

Basal R1a, R1b and R2b are all pretty rare in India as far as I know. There are a few select populations that will have more of a certain group due to founder effects (i.e. Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatts having noticeable R2b, Agarhias and various Pakistani groups having noticeable R1b). Do you have any idea what this mystery R prevalent in South Indian Brahmins is?

Sample population percent among South hovers close to 1% in all states except Karnataka (where one of the latest polls found it is between 2-3%), as per latest estimates in Outlook magazine. Many of these are citizens of other countries. So even though R1a is high there is not enough numbers in total. R1a is high in some tribes such as Chenchu in South India but not that big in Farming castes who make up higher percent.

https://images.outlookindia.com/public/uploads/images_old/brahamins_table_20070604.jpg

26284729292
03-04-2019, 10:20 PM
Is Y-STR data available from this study? Southern Brahmins have tons of R (xR1a1a, R2a). I can understand R2a not being very common them (R2a appears to be prevalent in NW, NE and E South Asia, but not much anywhere else), however the relative lack of R1a1a-M17 is baffling to me. Is this not a reliable SNP to use? Do these Brahmins overwhelmingly come under basal R1a, R1b, R2b or even something else altogether?

Basal R1a, R1b and R2b are all pretty rare in India as far as I know. There are a few select populations that will have more of a certain group due to founder effects (i.e. Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatts having noticeable R2b, Agarhias and various Pakistani groups having noticeable R1b). Do you have any idea what this mystery R prevalent in South Indian Brahmins is?

How does m17 compare to z93?

26284729292
03-04-2019, 10:23 PM
Sample population percent among South hovers close to 1% in all states except Karnataka (where one of the latest polls found it is between 2-3%), as per latest estimates in Outlook magazine. Many of these are citizens of other countries. So even though R1a is high there is not enough numbers in total. R1a is high in some tribes such as Chenchu in South India but not that big in Farming castes who make up higher percent.

https://images.outlookindia.com/public/uploads/images_old/brahamins_table_20070604.jpg

Brahmins in Tamil Nadu are such a small percent of the population that they can't be used to represent anything, especially in terms of haplogroups. I'm some subclade of z93 and I score like the gaud saraswat brahmin samples with excess NE asian/siberian. I've seen gujarat brahmin shifted tambrams who score 8% NE Euro and 8% Caucasus with H haplogroups. It's somewhat random.

Kallars, Mudialars, and even SC/ST & tribals will still score some R/R1a, probably due to founder effects.

aaronbee2010
03-04-2019, 11:03 PM
How does m17 compare to z93?

M17 = R1a1a
Z93 = R1a1a1b2

M17 is above Z93. I would expect these southern Brahmin groups to have loads of Z93 but that's not possible if they're M17-

tipirneni
03-05-2019, 01:05 AM
this study talks about 1 bp deletion event at M17 UEP among north indian Brahmins.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755252/

Haplogroup R was segregated into R1 by the presence of the M173-C allele and R2 by the presence of the M124-Tallele. Haplogroup R1, which was observed 133 times, was the most frequent (23.8%) and was found in all five populations. The frequency in each population was 24.0% (Bhargavas), 23.9% (Chaturvedis), 29.7% (Brahmins), 15.6% (Shias) and 28.8% (Sunnis), respectively (Figure 1). Interestingly, 130 of the 133 R1 lineages belonged to R1a1★ haplogroup, which carried a 1 bp deletion at M17 UEP in the lineage of M173-C allele. R1b1b2★ was only found in Bhargavas (once) and Brahmins (twice). Haplogroup R2 had a similar high frequency in the sample – it was observed 123 times. Its frequency in each group was 32.3% in Bhargavas, 31.8% in Chaturvedis, 20.3% in Brahmins, 13.0% in Shias, and 19.2% in Sunnis, respectively


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755252/bin/nihms103422f1.jpg

Cluster showing South Indians closer to middle east
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755252/bin/nihms103422f2.jpg

26284729292
03-05-2019, 02:01 AM
M17 = R1a1a
Z93 = R1a1a1b2

M17 is above Z93. I would expect these southern Brahmin groups to have loads of Z93 but that's not possible if they're M17-

That’s very odd.

parasar
03-05-2019, 05:59 PM
Is Y-STR data available from this study? Southern Brahmins have tons of R (xR1a1a, R2a). I can understand R2a not being very common them (R2a appears to be prevalent in NW, NE and E South Asia, but not much anywhere else), however the relative lack of R1a1a-M17 is baffling to me. Is this not a reliable SNP to use? Do these Brahmins overwhelmingly come under basal R1a, R1b, R2b or even something else altogether?

Basal R1a, R1b and R2b are all pretty rare in India as far as I know. There are a few select populations that will have more of a certain group due to founder effects (i.e. Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatts having noticeable R2b, Agarhias and various Pakistani groups having noticeable R1b). Do you have any idea what this mystery R prevalent in South Indian Brahmins is?

Those R-M207 are mostly M479. And the R1a1 are all M17+ (i.e. M17 deletion). But yes the Tamil data-set has lots of P-M45xM242xM207.
There was a misalignment error in their published table. Are you looking at the corrected table here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44

The STRs from the Tamil paper: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0050269.s005

The STRs from the Maldives paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652038/bin/ajpa0151-0058-SD10.xlsx

Jatt1
03-05-2019, 08:24 PM
M17 = R1a1a
Z93 = R1a1a1b2

M17 is above Z93. I would expect these southern Brahmin groups to have loads of Z93 but that's not possible if they're M17-

You don't get enough information from a few STRs, you don't need to count R1as but need to compare its subclades to have better understanding of it.

laltota
03-06-2019, 01:19 PM
H is heavily found near major river basins occurring with R1a like people close to some 25-40% people, in Punjab it should be close to 10% since there are not many R1a brahmins left due to repeated invasions.

I do not believe there is any correlation in that manner between H and R1a. There are plenty of Brahmins in Punjab as far as I am aware. You will find them more in towns than villages, but there are probably some villages with a larger population of Brahmins than most villages.

Table shows y-Dna percentages for Punjab Brahmins, India and for some other people. We don't know to which group some of these samples belonged (e.g. "Punjabi (India)" who are they exactly like Chamar or Rajput or Saini or what?), but at least there is something to look at.

We can see Punjab Brahmins had 35.71% R1a and 25% R2, but no H in this sample.



Population
Language
n
B
C
DE
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
R1
R1a
R1b
R2
T
Reference


New Delhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Delhi)Hindus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) (India)
IE
49


0




0
2
18.3


8.1
0
4.1




2
0
6.1




34.7
0
20.4
0
Fornarino2009[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Fornarino2009-1)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)
IE
176


7.4




0
6.2
6.2


15.3


13.1




2.3


3.4




24.4
7.4
7.4
0
Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)


638


3




0.8
2.7
2.5


20.2


11.6




0.5
0
2.2




37.1


7.8
0
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Afghanistan)
IE
49


2




0
6.1
6.1


2


12.2




0
0
18.4




51
0
2
0
Haber2012[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Haber2012-3)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Pakistan)
IE
96


0




2.1
11.5
4.2


6.2


12.5




5.2
0
5.2




44.8


0
1
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pathan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns)(Pakistan)
IE
21


4.8






9.5
14.3






9.5








9.5
4.8


38.1
9.5
9.5


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Punjab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab,_India)Brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin)(India)
IE
28


3.58




3.57
3.57




21.43


7.14














35.71


25


Sharma2009[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-S_Sharma_2009-6)


Punjabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(India)
IE
66


3








4.6


21.2


12.1














47
7.6
4.6


Kivisild2003[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Kivisild2003-8)


Punjabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(Pakistan)
IE
48


2.08






8.33
6.25


27.08


4.17








4.17




35.42


12.5


Poznik2016[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Poznik2016-4)


Rajput (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput) (India)
IE
29


3.4




3.4


20.7


17.2


6.9




3.4








31


13.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Shia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) (India)
IE
154


9.1


11
3.3
9.7
7.8


19.5
3.3
3.9




2
2






15.6


13


Zhao2009[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Zhao2009-5)


Sindhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhis)(Pakistan)
IE
21
















33.3


4.8








4.8




52.4


4.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)

aaronbee2010
03-06-2019, 03:18 PM
I do not believe there is any correlation in that manner between H and R1a. There are plenty of Brahmins in Punjab as far as I am aware. You will find them more in towns than villages, but there are probably some villages with a larger population of Brahmins than most villages.

Table shows y-Dna percentages for Punjab Brahmins, India and for some other people. We don't know to which group some of these samples belonged (e.g. "Punjabi (India)" who are they exactly like Chamar or Rajput or Saini or what?), but at least there is something to look at.

We can see Punjab Brahmins had 35.71% R1a and 25% R2, but no H in this sample.



Population
Language
n
B
C
DE
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
R1
R1a
R1b
R2
T
Reference


New Delhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Delhi)Hindus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) (India)
IE
49


0




0
2
18.3


8.1
0
4.1




2
0
6.1




34.7
0
20.4
0
Fornarino2009[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Fornarino2009-1)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)
IE
176


7.4




0
6.2
6.2


15.3


13.1




2.3


3.4




24.4
7.4
7.4
0
Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)


638


3




0.8
2.7
2.5


20.2


11.6




0.5
0
2.2




37.1


7.8
0
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Afghanistan)
IE
49


2




0
6.1
6.1


2


12.2




0
0
18.4




51
0
2
0
Haber2012[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Haber2012-3)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Pakistan)
IE
96


0




2.1
11.5
4.2


6.2


12.5




5.2
0
5.2




44.8


0
1
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pathan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns)(Pakistan)
IE
21


4.8






9.5
14.3






9.5








9.5
4.8


38.1
9.5
9.5


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Punjab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab,_India)Brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin)(India)
IE
28


3.58




3.57
3.57




21.43


7.14














35.71


25


Sharma2009[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-S_Sharma_2009-6)


Punjabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(India)
IE
66


3








4.6


21.2


12.1














47
7.6
4.6


Kivisild2003[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Kivisild2003-8)


Punjabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(Pakistan)
IE
48


2.08






8.33
6.25


27.08


4.17








4.17




35.42


12.5


Poznik2016[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Poznik2016-4)


Rajput (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput) (India)
IE
29


3.4




3.4


20.7


17.2


6.9




3.4








31


13.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Shia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) (India)
IE
154


9.1


11
3.3
9.7
7.8


19.5
3.3
3.9




2
2






15.6


13


Zhao2009[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Zhao2009-5)


Sindhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhis)(Pakistan)
IE
21
















33.3


4.8








4.8




52.4


4.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)



That study (Sharma et al. 2009) defines R2 as M124, so those results would now be classed as R2a. People who came under R2b in that study would've been designated R*.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2019, 03:26 PM
I do not believe there is any correlation in that manner between H and R1a. There are plenty of Brahmins in Punjab as far as I am aware. You will find them more in towns than villages, but there are probably some villages with a larger population of Brahmins than most villages.

Table shows y-Dna percentages for Punjab Brahmins, India and for some other people. We don't know to which group some of these samples belonged (e.g. "Punjabi (India)" who are they exactly like Chamar or Rajput or Saini or what?), but at least there is something to look at.

We can see Punjab Brahmins had 35.71% R1a and 25% R2, but no H in this sample.



Population
Language
n
B
C
DE
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
R1
R1a
R1b
R2
T
Reference


New Delhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Delhi)Hindus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) (India)
IE
49


0




0
2
18.3


8.1
0
4.1




2
0
6.1




34.7
0
20.4
0
Fornarino2009[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Fornarino2009-1)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)
IE
176


7.4




0
6.2
6.2


15.3


13.1




2.3


3.4




24.4
7.4
7.4
0
Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)


638


3




0.8
2.7
2.5


20.2


11.6




0.5
0
2.2




37.1


7.8
0
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Afghanistan)
IE
49


2




0
6.1
6.1


2


12.2




0
0
18.4




51
0
2
0
Haber2012[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Haber2012-3)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Pakistan)
IE
96


0




2.1
11.5
4.2


6.2


12.5




5.2
0
5.2




44.8


0
1
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pathan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns)(Pakistan)
IE
21


4.8






9.5
14.3






9.5








9.5
4.8


38.1
9.5
9.5


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Punjab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab,_India)Brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin)(India)
IE
28


3.58




3.57
3.57




21.43


7.14














35.71


25


Sharma2009[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-S_Sharma_2009-6)


Punjabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(India)
IE
66


3








4.6


21.2


12.1














47
7.6
4.6


Kivisild2003[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Kivisild2003-8)


Punjabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(Pakistan)
IE
48


2.08






8.33
6.25


27.08


4.17








4.17




35.42


12.5


Poznik2016[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Poznik2016-4)


Rajput (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput) (India)
IE
29


3.4




3.4


20.7


17.2


6.9




3.4








31


13.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Shia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) (India)
IE
154


9.1


11
3.3
9.7
7.8


19.5
3.3
3.9




2
2






15.6


13


Zhao2009[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Zhao2009-5)


Sindhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhis)(Pakistan)
IE
21
















33.3


4.8








4.8




52.4


4.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)



If I'm not wrong, F is just above H. I had few people on 23&me who were initially assigned F, which later changed to H.

aaronbee2010
03-06-2019, 03:53 PM
If I'm not wrong, F is just above H. I had few people on 23&me who were initially assigned F, which later changed to H.

I think pretty much all old assignments of F now come under H. H was defined in that study as M69, and ISOGG until 2014. Now it defines H1a, and H is defined by M2939 and H1 is defined by M3061.

All H in India comes under H1. So I think those F folk in the study were M3061+, M69-. In that case they would almost certainly be Z5857+

https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-Z5857/

poi
03-06-2019, 04:33 PM
I think pretty much all old assignments of F now come under H. H was defined in that study as M69, and ISOGG until 2014. Now it defines H1a, and H is defined by M2939 and H1 is defined by M3061.

All H in India comes under H1. So I think those F folk in the study were M3061+, M69-. In that case they would almost certainly be Z5857+

https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-Z5857/

I am looking at the study ["Genetic Diversity in the Himalayan Populations of Nepal and Tibet" (2012).] from Nepal/Tibet and 3 Tibetans and 1 Nepali-Kathmandu are H M69+.


NplK30
Tib9
Tib17
Tib107

So, could M69, if it exists in India, be Tibetan in origin?

aaronbee2010
03-06-2019, 07:20 PM
I am looking at the study ["Genetic Diversity in the Himalayan Populations of Nepal and Tibet" (2012).] from Nepal/Tibet and 3 Tibetans and 1 Nepali-Kathmandu are H M69+.


NplK30
Tib9
Tib17
Tib107

So, could M69, if it exists in India, be Tibetan in origin?

Both pictures predate discovery of M2939 and M3061, so H is defined in this pictures as M69.

https://i.gyazo.com/25e2d7b4fbf17b2b993724045c815c88.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Haplogrupo_H_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Both pictures show a mainly Southern distribution for H-M69, with the cluster slightly slanted towards the left. This does suggest that the trajectory of entry seems to be more from the N/NE parts of the subcontinent. The broad area of possible areas of origin do include Nepal, but I think the best candidate region would be somewhere broadly around the eastern half of the Uttar Pradesh/Madhya Pradesh.

I haven't been able to find any other pictures of Y-DNA H's distribution across India, let alone an STR variance map, which would be really useful here, as I don't know how to make a heatmap out of YFull data, or any heatmap for that matter.

tipirneni
03-06-2019, 09:16 PM
I do not believe there is any correlation in that manner between H and R1a. There are plenty of Brahmins in Punjab as far as I am aware. You will find them more in towns than villages, but there are probably some villages with a larger population of Brahmins than most villages.

Table shows y-Dna percentages for Punjab Brahmins, India and for some other people. We don't know to which group some of these samples belonged (e.g. "Punjabi (India)" who are they exactly like Chamar or Rajput or Saini or what?), but at least there is something to look at.

We can see Punjab Brahmins had 35.71% R1a and 25% R2, but no H in this sample.



Population
Language
n
B
C
DE
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
R1
R1a
R1b
R2
T
Reference


New Delhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Delhi)Hindus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) (India)
IE
49


0




0
2
18.3


8.1
0
4.1




2
0
6.1




34.7
0
20.4
0
Fornarino2009[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Fornarino2009-1)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)
IE
176


7.4




0
6.2
6.2


15.3


13.1




2.3


3.4




24.4
7.4
7.4
0
Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan)


638


3




0.8
2.7
2.5


20.2


11.6




0.5
0
2.2




37.1


7.8
0
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Afghanistan)
IE
49


2




0
6.1
6.1


2


12.2




0
0
18.4




51
0
2
0
Haber2012[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Haber2012-3)


Pashtun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people)(Pakistan)
IE
96


0




2.1
11.5
4.2


6.2


12.5




5.2
0
5.2




44.8


0
1
Firasat2006[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Firasat2006-7)


Pathan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns)(Pakistan)
IE
21


4.8






9.5
14.3






9.5








9.5
4.8


38.1
9.5
9.5


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Punjab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab,_India)Brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin)(India)
IE
28


3.58




3.57
3.57




21.43


7.14














35.71


25


Sharma2009[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-S_Sharma_2009-6)


Punjabi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(India)
IE
66


3








4.6


21.2


12.1














47
7.6
4.6


Kivisild2003[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Kivisild2003-8)


Punjabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis)(Pakistan)
IE
48


2.08






8.33
6.25


27.08


4.17








4.17




35.42


12.5


Poznik2016[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Poznik2016-4)


Rajput (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput) (India)
IE
29


3.4




3.4


20.7


17.2


6.9




3.4








31


13.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)


Shia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) (India)
IE
154


9.1


11
3.3
9.7
7.8


19.5
3.3
3.9




2
2






15.6


13


Zhao2009[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Zhao2009-5)


Sindhi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhis)(Pakistan)
IE
21
















33.3


4.8








4.8




52.4


4.8


Sengupta2006[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia#cite_ note-Sengupta2006-2)



Maybe Sampling issues. Brahmins all over India are like 11.x% H haplogroups. UP has bigger percent & in absolute number lot more than other states. Even Pakistan many groups have some percent of H though not as big as in India, so it is likely the major H haplogroup brahmins like Bhargavas etc... got decimated in the wars.

parasar
03-06-2019, 09:23 PM
If I'm not wrong, F is just above H. I had few people on 23&me who were initially assigned F, which later changed to H.

F is not technically just above H anymore, as we have
F
...GHIJK
......G
......HIJK
........H
........IJK

Though the TMRCA of G (YFull TMRCA 26100 ybp) is about half that of H (YFull TMRCA 46500 ybp).

It is also true, as aaronbee2010 mentioned, that the known (if not all) Indian F* are now H.

The only confirmed F*xGHIJK we have are from SE Asia:

Vietnamese sample HG02040
"We observed one lineage, carried by the Vietnamese sample HG02040, that is derived for F-M89 and most other SNPs shared by the rest of megahaplogroup F. However, the individual carried the ancestral allele for four SNPs present in the derived state in all other hgF representatives. These SNPs include M3658 (85,89,031, C→T), M3680 (14,237,670, C→T), M3684 (14,367,181 G→A), and 14,565,310 C→A. The lineage therefore constitutes an outgroup to the rest of the clade and is the only one that we classify as belonging to paragroup F*"

Malay sample SSM072
"Malaysian Chr Y sequence data (Wong et al. 2013) reveals a split in
haplogroup F that predates the G/HT split by one mutation, F1329 (Figure S13). This finding is
in accordance with the two Lahu F2-M427 individuals reported in Poznik et al. (2013) as having
an ancestral allele of M578. In combination with the presence of deep branches of K in Southeast
Asia, this further strengthens the model proposing that the initial radiation of the non-African
Chr Y lineages may have taken place somewhere in Southeast Asia (Karafet et al. 2014).
Following PhyloTreeY (van Oven et al. 2014) we re-define the internal structure of haplogroup
H-M3035 that now incorporates South Asian lineages H1-M69 (predominantly found in Indian
peninsula)
...
we map the position of the F2 clade represented by Malay sample SSM072 and redefine haplogroup NO by F549 and 4
equivalent mutations. NO splits further into NO1-M214 and the novel NO2-F2755, as
defined by the SSM016 sequence."

And perhaps F-P14* samples from the Timor area.
https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/jhg/journal/v59/n9/extref/jhg201462x1.pdf

thejkhan
03-06-2019, 09:23 PM
Maybe Sampling issues. Brahmins all over India are like 11.x% H haplogroups. UP has bigger percent & in absolute number lot more than other states. Even Pakistan many groups have some percent of H though not as big as in India, so it is likely the major H haplogroup brahmins like Bhargavas etc... got decimated in the wars.

Sounds about right. According to this paper (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/651415/), around 11.5% of Punjabi Saraswat Brahmins are H men.

parasar
03-06-2019, 10:18 PM
Sounds about right. According to this paper (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2015/651415/), around 11.5% of Punjabi Saraswat Brahmins are H men.

H is pan-subcontinental as is R1a1, so that does not surprise. But I am not buying the decimation argument for H. If R1a1 had mixed with H in one location and then spread, all Brahman populations would have similar proportions of H:R1a1. But IMO what is more likely is that R1a1 mixed with others depending what was in the area/population.


I maybe wrong on this, but I still think R1a1 correlates better with R2 than with H, L, G, or J.
The muslims of UP are perhaps better exponents to this R1a1+R2 mixture than the UP Brahmans, or maybe this was a sample set artifact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/?report=objectonly

thejkhan
03-06-2019, 10:27 PM
H is pan-subcontinental as is R1a1, so that does not surprise. But I am not buying the decimation argument for H. If R1a1 had mixed with H in one location and then spread, all Brahman populations would have similar proportions of H:R1a1. But IMO what is more likely is that R1a1 mixed with others depending what was in the area/population.


The ratio varies because of founder effect.

Examples of founder effects:
- Brahmins of Bengal have one of the highest frequencies of R1a1. The founding population (migrants from UP) must have been mostly R1a1.
- Two thirds of Brahmins of Jaunpur (UP) are H-M82 men.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-06-2019, 10:27 PM
H is pan-subcontinental as is R1a1, so that does not surprise. But I am not buying the decimation argument for H. If R1a1 had mixed with H in one location and then spread, all Brahman populations would have similar proportions of H:R1a1. But IMO what is more likely is that R1a1 mixed with others depending what was in the area/population.


I maybe wrong on this, but I still think R1a1 correlates better with R2 than with H, L, G, or J.
The muslims of UP are perhaps better exponents to this R1a1+R2 mixture than the UP Brahmans, or maybe this was a sample set artifact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/?report=objectonly

What do you mean by that? Are you claiming R1a1 is native to subcontinent?

thejkhan
03-06-2019, 10:29 PM
What do you mean by that? Are you claiming R1a1 is native to subcontinent?

Found in almost all South Asian (east of Indus) ethnic groups, like H. "Pan-South Asia". Not necessarily native.

parasar
03-06-2019, 10:52 PM
The ratio varies because of founder effect.

Examples of founder effects:
- Brahmins of Bengal have one of the highest frequencies of R1a1. The founding population (migrants from UP) must have been mostly R1a1.
- Two thirds of Brahmins of Jaunpur (UP) are H-M82 men.

Yes I suppose that is theoretically possible, that the five Koranch brahmans considered progenitors of the kulin Bangali Brahmans were not H1.
(By the way we have a Koranch sept too. No idea about their Y, but they are of the Sandil got.)

laltota
03-06-2019, 11:49 PM
Maybe Sampling issues. Brahmins all over India are like 11.x% H haplogroups. UP has bigger percent & in absolute number lot more than other states. Even Pakistan many groups have some percent of H though not as big as in India, so it is likely the major H haplogroup brahmins like Bhargavas etc... got decimated in the wars.

Yes it might have been a sampling issue. Different sample of Brahmins from another location in Punjab might show some with H y-Dna. I cant say I have seen any evidence that Brahmins were decimated like that in wars in Punjab, any more than non-Brahmins, to cause the H in Brahmins to become reduced or lost, so I am reluctant to believe that is a reason.

More H might be found in Punjab India and Pakistan Punjab when more groups are tested. H overall increases going south? Is that correct? But in Pakistan Kalash have H-M52 at 21.5%.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Haplogrupo_H_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

laltota
03-07-2019, 12:09 AM
The ratio varies because of founder effect.

Examples of founder effects:
- Brahmins of Bengal have one of the highest frequencies of R1a1. The founding population (migrants from UP) must have been mostly R1a1.
- Two thirds of Brahmins of Jaunpur (UP) are H-M82 men.

Balkan Romani are high in H-M82 due to founder effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)
Romani people
Haplogroup H-M82 is a major lineage cluster in the Romani, especially Balkan Romani, among whom it accounts for approximately 60% of males.[23] A 2-bp deletion at M82 locus defining this haplogroup was also reported in one-third of males from traditional Romani populations living in Bulgaria, Spain, and Lithuania[24]. High prevalence of Asian-specific Y chromosome haplogroup H-M82 supports their Indian origin and a hypothesis of a small number of founders diverging from a single ethnic group in India (Gresham et al. 2001).

Important studies show a limited introgression of the typical Romani Y-chromosome haplogroup H1 in several European groups, including approximately 0.61% in Gheg Albanians, 2.48% in Tosk Albanians and 0.9% in Serbians.[25]

H1a in Romani populations


Population
n/Sample size
Percentage
Source


Bulgarian Roma
98/248
39.5
[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Gresham_2001-24)


Hungarian Roma
34/107
31.8
[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Pamjav_2011-26)


Kosovar Roma
25/42
59.5
[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Regueiro_2011-27)


Lithuanian Roma
10/20
50
[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Gresham_2001-24)


Macedonian Roma
34/57
59.6
[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Perecic2005-23)


Portuguese Roma
21/126
16.7
[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-28)


Serbian Roma
16/46
34.8
[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Regueiro_2011-27)


Slovakian Roma
19/62
30.65
[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Pamjav_2011-26)


Spanish Roma
5/27
18.5
[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Gresham_2001-24)

tipirneni
03-08-2019, 05:06 AM
H is pan-subcontinental as is R1a1, so that does not surprise. But I am not buying the decimation argument for H. If R1a1 had mixed with H in one location and then spread, all Brahman populations would have similar proportions of H:R1a1. But IMO what is more likely is that R1a1 mixed with others depending what was in the area/population.


I maybe wrong on this, but I still think R1a1 correlates better with R2 than with H, L, G, or J.
The muslims of UP are perhaps better exponents to this R1a1+R2 mixture than the UP Brahmans, or maybe this was a sample set artifact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/?report=objectonly

If you look at distribution, H1 appears in bulk (>30%) in castes & tribes that big in number like Kurmi, Reddy, Gowda, namsudra, kayast, Bania, Chamar, Yadav, Maratha, Kurumba etc... where there are a lot of R1a Brahmins nearby. R2 doesnt show that big % number in particular groups except for few lower communities in Bengal. Compared to H, Except for small spike in East Brahmins like WBR & in West coast like KBR GBR OBR there is not much big percent in R1a occurrence. In East India there are some places where H1 & R2 & J2b2 appear along side. going south it co occurs with H1 in castes like Karan/Gope, Kapu, Kamma, Mahisya, Namasudra . Central India tribals many places H1 & O appear big, with H > 50% in many places. Even South & West many tribals > 35% H occur.

I agree most studies don't have statistics random sampling where they get close to real distribution of the Haplogroups, in most cases the skew due to geography or subcastes are huge in most cases make the studies ineffective

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0090414 table 1

parasar
03-09-2019, 10:04 PM
Balkan Romani are high in H-M82 due to founder effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)
Romani people
Haplogroup H-M82 is a major lineage cluster in the Romani, especially Balkan Romani, among whom it accounts for approximately 60% of males.[23] A 2-bp deletion at M82 locus defining this haplogroup was also reported in one-third of males from traditional Romani populations living in Bulgaria, Spain, and Lithuania[24]. High prevalence of Asian-specific Y chromosome haplogroup H-M82 supports their Indian origin and a hypothesis of a small number of founders diverging from a single ethnic group in India (Gresham et al. 2001).

Important studies show a limited introgression of the typical Romani Y-chromosome haplogroup H1 in several European groups, including approximately 0.61% in Gheg Albanians, 2.48% in Tosk Albanians and 0.9% in Serbians.[25]
...

To an extent we see that in the Roma with R1a1-M780/L657 too.
"Notably, R1a-M780 (Figure 3d) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary, consistent with previous studies reporting the presence of R1a-Z93 in Roma"
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450

aaronbee2010
03-26-2019, 10:43 PM
Punjabi Jatt Sikhs (from above study - using NEVGEN Y-STR Haplogroup Predictor):



Haplogroup
Total
Percentage


C
1
1.25%


G
3
3.75%


H
1
1.25%


I
1
1.25%


J
14
17.50%


L
13
16.25%


Q
3
3.75%


R1a
33
41.25%


R1b
1
1.25%


R2
10
12.50%


TOTAL
80




The I sample present is most likely G. Y-STR predictors that work with 19 STR's or less tend to mistake G and I for each other.

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(17)30164-6/pdf

Rahuls77
03-27-2019, 07:11 PM
I tend to think there were a lot of migrations from the south into Punjab, of the Brahmins, as it also happened in Kashmir. Kashmiri Pandit y haplogroup diversity is quite rich,and they have had narratives of migrations out and back into the valley.

aaronbee2010
05-22-2019, 07:14 PM
Nagy et al. 2007 - Haryanvi Jatts

Note: Some of the predictions from the tool (NEVGEN) were split between different haplogroups. I'm assuming the haplotypes split between C/G are G and the haplogroups split between O/Q are Q

Also, me and my closest FTDNA match (hasn't disclosed his surname or background -_-) are the closest matches to one of the R2 haplotypes found in these Haryanvi Jatts, so I'm assuming this haplotype at least comes under R2-Z29271. This may or may not suggest a link between my lineage and Haryana :o

It's interesting to see that this group of people have some of the highest Steppe levels in South Asia, but only have R1a at 25%. I would really like to see what their maternal haplos are.



Y-DNA
n
%


G
3
3.57%


J
5
5.95%


L
34
40.48%


Q
18
21.43%


R1a
21
25.00%


R2
3
3.57%


Total
84

poi
05-23-2019, 05:18 AM
Nagy et al. 2007 - Haryanvi Jatts

Note: Some of the predictions from the tool (NEVGEN) were split between different haplogroups. I'm assuming the haplotypes split between C/G are G and the haplogroups split between O/Q are Q

Also, me and my closest FTDNA match (hasn't disclosed his surname or background -_-) are the closest matches to one of the R2 haplotypes found in these Haryanvi Jatts, so I'm assuming this haplotype at least comes under R2-Z29271. This may or may not suggest a link between my lineage and Haryana :o

It's interesting to see that this group of people have some of the highest Steppe levels in South Asia, but only have R1a at 25%. I would really like to see what their maternal haplos are.



Y-DNA
n
%


G
3
3.57%


J
5
5.95%


L
34
40.48%


Q
18
21.43%


R1a
21
25.00%


R2
3
3.57%


Total
84




Interesting, I would have thought their R1a would have been higher than L. Their Q is very high at over 20%(assuming the sampling was good enough). Do other SouthAsian groups have Q that high?

aaronbee2010
05-23-2019, 10:00 AM
Interesting, I would have thought their R1a would have been higher than L. Their Q is very high at over 20%(assuming the sampling was good enough). Do other SouthAsian groups have Q that high?

Some Pashtuns/Pathans seem to have high levels of Q.

Inder
09-14-2020, 12:20 AM
I'm new to all this & have just had a DNA test done & could not upload the results on GED; kept stating the file was too small. So, I went on a site called genomelink who compile a report on - ancient admixture. I wondered if someone could perhaps tell me what the South Asian component means at 37%? Is it ASI or is it all of South Asia - which means what, considering the number of ethnicities now residing there? I have read there description but it is rather vague, implying that it represents the whole of India.

My report is:
Hunter Gatherer - 3%
First Farmers - 20%
Steppe Pastoralists - 31%
Indigenous American - 4%
West African - 4%
East Asian - 2%
South Asian - 37%

ThaYamamoto
09-14-2020, 01:15 AM
I'm new to all this & have just had a DNA test done & could not upload the results on GED; kept stating the file was too small. So, I went on a site called genomelink who compile a report on - ancient admixture. I wondered if someone could perhaps tell me what the South Asian component means at 37%? Is it ASI or is it all of South Asia - which means what, considering the number of ethnicities now residing there? I have read there description but it is rather vague, implying that it represents the whole of India.

My report is:
Hunter Gatherer - 3%
First Farmers - 20%
Steppe Pastoralists - 31%
Indigenous American - 4%
West African - 4%
East Asian - 2%
South Asian - 37%

Could you post your HarappaWorld results + oracles?

deuterium_1
09-14-2020, 08:53 AM
I'm new to all this & have just had a DNA test done & could not upload the results on GED; kept stating the file was too small. So, I went on a site called genomelink who compile a report on - ancient admixture. I wondered if someone could perhaps tell me what the South Asian component means at 37%? Is it ASI or is it all of South Asia - which means what, considering the number of ethnicities now residing there? I have read there description but it is rather vague, implying that it represents the whole of India.

My report is:
Hunter Gatherer - 3%
First Farmers - 20%
Steppe Pastoralists - 31%
Indigenous American - 4%
West African - 4%
East Asian - 2%
South Asian - 37%

Which DNA testing company did you use?

Inder
09-15-2020, 01:17 AM
Which DNA testing company did you use?

23 and me, but the ancestral DNA was through Genomelink. I did not have to upload my raw data, Genomelink got it directly from 23 & Me through their site. I'm assuming they are part of the same organisation.