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Fire Haired
10-10-2013, 01:52 AM
Borshevo region Russia 37,985ybp mtDNA=U2

Dolni Vestonice, Czech Republic 31,155ybp mtDNA=3: U5=2, U8=1

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 28,000ybp mtDNA= H or HV or U

Gravettian culture Wales, UK 26,000ybp mtDNA= CRS unknown haplogroup click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html) says rCRS is most likely H.

Gravettian culture Sunghir Russia 25,000ybp mtDNA=2: click here and here most likely H17'27

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA=HV or RO or H or U

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA= 73G, 10873C, 10238T, 10397A, 10398A, 10399C, 10400C, 16223T, reported as N*, correct for 10398A, but inconsistent with 10400C, so possible mosaic.

Solutrian,Nerja, Málaga Spain 18,000-15,000bc mtDNA=3 RO?=1, U=2

Magdalenian Hohler Fels, Germany 13,400bc mtDNA=2: U=2

Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 13,000-9,000bc mtDNA= U2'3'4'7'8'9(Based on modern, Paleoithic, Mesloithic, Neloithic, Bronze, and Iron age European mtDNA samples most likely U2 or U4.

Magdalenian El Pirulejo , Spain 11,500-10,500bc mtDNA= CRS unknown for sure haplogroup

Magdalenian La Pasiega (Cantabria), Spain: mtDNA=3: reported as H=2(H6=1), U5=1. Jean Manco creator of Ancient Euraisan DNA says RO or HV=1, U=2(U5=1)

Late Epi-Gravettian Continenza, Italy 14,000-8,000ybp mtDNA= U5b2b1

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 05:19 PM
EDITED

Borshevo region Russia 33,250ybp mtDNA=U2

Dolni Vestonice, Czech Republic 31,155ybp mtDNA=3: intermediate between U and U5=2, U8=1

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 28,000ybp mtDNA= HV or U?

Gravettian culture Wales, UK 26,000ybp mtDNA= CRS unknown haplogroup click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html) says rCRS is most likely H.

Gravettian culture Sunghir Russia 25,000ybp mtDNA=2: click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html) and here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fthreads %2F25546-25-000-year-old-Russian-Cro-Magnons-might-have-been-hg-H17&ei=9w9kUpzxKaL4yQGM8oHwCg&usg=AFQjCNFO4y_Xr2GtxsqwpqJliOuz3GLUvw&sig2=ilTlC73T0GPdMfvOuv3mtA) most likely H17'27

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA=HV or RO

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA= 73G, 10873C, 10238T, 10397A, 10398A, 10399C, 10400C, 16223T, reported as N*, correct for 10398A, but inconsistent with 10400C, so possible mosaic.

Solutrian,Nerja, Málaga Spain 18,000-15,000bc mtDNA=3 RO?=1, U=2

Magdalenian Hohler Fels, Germany 13,400bc mtDNA=2: U=2

Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 13,000-9,000bc mtDNA= U2'3'4'7'8'9(Based on modern, Paleoithic, Mesloithic, Neloithic, Bronze, and Iron age European mtDNA samples most likely U2 or U4)

Oberkassel, Germany mtDNA=2: U5b1=2: one from 12,000BC and one from 11,400BC

Magdalenian El Pirulejo , Spain 11,500-10,500bc mtDNA= CRS unknown for sure haplogroup

Magdalenian La Pasiega (Cantabria), Spain: mtDNA=3: reported as H=2(H6=1), U5=1. Jean Manco creator of Ancient Euraisan DNA says RO or HV=1, U=2(U5=1, U?=1)

Late Epi-Gravettian Continenza, Italy 14,000-8,000ybp mtDNA= U5b2b1

J Man
10-20-2013, 05:34 PM
EDITED

Borshevo region Russia 33,250ybp mtDNA=U2

Dolni Vestonice, Czech Republic 31,155ybp mtDNA=3: intermediate between U and U5=2, U8=1

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 28,000ybp mtDNA= HV or U?

Gravettian culture Wales, UK 26,000ybp mtDNA= CRS unknown haplogroup click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html) says rCRS is most likely H.

Gravettian culture Sunghir Russia 25,000ybp mtDNA=2: click here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html) and here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fthreads %2F25546-25-000-year-old-Russian-Cro-Magnons-might-have-been-hg-H17&ei=9w9kUpzxKaL4yQGM8oHwCg&usg=AFQjCNFO4y_Xr2GtxsqwpqJliOuz3GLUvw&sig2=ilTlC73T0GPdMfvOuv3mtA) most likely H17'27

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA=HV or RO

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 24,000ybp mtDNA= 73G, 10873C, 10238T, 10397A, 10398A, 10399C, 10400C, 16223T, reported as N*, correct for 10398A, but inconsistent with 10400C, so possible mosaic.

Solutrian,Nerja, Málaga Spain 18,000-15,000bc mtDNA=3 RO?=1, U=2

Magdalenian Hohler Fels, Germany 13,400bc mtDNA=2: U=2

Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 13,000-9,000bc mtDNA= U2'3'4'7'8'9(Based on modern, Paleoithic, Mesloithic, Neloithic, Bronze, and Iron age European mtDNA samples most likely U2 or U4)

Oberkassel, Germany mtDNA=2: U5b1=2: one from 12,000BC and one from 11,400BC

Magdalenian El Pirulejo , Spain 11,500-10,500bc mtDNA= CRS unknown for sure haplogroup

Magdalenian La Pasiega (Cantabria), Spain: mtDNA=3: reported as H=2(H6=1), U5=1. Jean Manco creator of Ancient Euraisan DNA says RO or HV=1, U=2(U5=1, U?=1)

Late Epi-Gravettian Continenza, Italy 14,000-8,000ybp mtDNA= U5b2b1

Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 28,000ybp mtDNA= HV or U?

Gravettian culture Wales, UK 26,000ybp mtDNA= CRS unknown haplogroup click here says rCRS is most likely H.

Gravettian culture Sunghir Russia 25,000ybp mtDNA=2: click here and here most likely H17'27


Those three samples that I list above are very unlikely to be some sort of H. It should be quite clear by now that the Upper Paleolithic samples from Europe all the way to Siberia are dominated by mtDNA haplogroup U....Those all need to be retested.

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 05:57 PM
Gravettian culture Rignano Garganico, Apulia, southern Italy 28,000ybp mtDNA= HV or U?

Gravettian culture Wales, UK 26,000ybp mtDNA= CRS unknown haplogroup click here says rCRS is most likely H.

Gravettian culture Sunghir Russia 25,000ybp mtDNA=2: click here and here most likely H17'27


Those three samples that I list above are very unlikely to be some sort of H. It should be quite clear by now that the Upper Paleolithic samples from Europe all the way to Siberia are dominated by mtDNA haplogroup U....Those all need to be retested.

I gave my evidence you should click on the links there are some that are for sure not U!! That 24,000 year old mtDNA U in Siberia there is a better chance it came from the Near east not Europe. You should not generalize the U so far one U2 33,250 ybp Russia, two 31,155 year old pre U5's Czech republic and one U8 for mtDNA in Europe over 30,000ybp. And already a Varity of U5b and U5a subclades and U2e in Europe from over 8,000 and over 10,000ybp and U4's from 7,500ybp. There are also two reported H's in northern Spain from 15,000ybp one H6 and a bunch of reported H's including H1b from Mesolithic Portugal 7,500-9,500ybp and 7,500 year old H in Karlie Russia. You should become one of those anti H people who assume only U5, U2,U4, and U8 existed in pre farming Europe. It is way to simple to say the huge variety of H, J, T, K, V, I, W, and X subclades in Europe arrived with farming. Because of such deep subclades and how unique are some to Europe and that we have samples of these almost exclusively European subclades in Neolithic Europe from 7,000ybp just 2,000 years after farming arrived.

So its crazy to say they evolved so quickly and especially for main European H subclades H1 and H3 where there is not much evidence they could have come from the Near east. But I do agree ancient DNA has pretty much proven the huge difference between hunter gather and farmer mtDNA and austosomal DNA. Also the autosomal DNA of the farmers show they where note exactly Near eastern. There huge amount of Meditreaen in globe13 is never found in the near east and same with their small amount of southwest Asian and west Asian. They had more southwest Asian than west Asian unlike modern Anatolians which is where farming came to Europe through. I think there Med came from a non Near eastern source maybe southeast European hunter gathers.

I still cant understand how the hunter gathers maternal lines are so rare today but their autosomal group North European is very common.

J Man
10-20-2013, 06:18 PM
I gave my evidence you should click on the links there are some that are for sure not U!! That 24,000 year old mtDNA U in Siberia there is a better chance it came from the Near east not Europe. You should not generalize the U so far one U2 33,250 ybp Russia, two 31,155 year old pre U5's Czech republic and one U8 for mtDNA in Europe over 30,000ybp. And already a Varity of U5b and U5a subclades and U2e in Europe from over 8,000 and over 10,000ybp and U4's from 7,500ybp. There are also two reported H's in northern Spain from 15,000ybp one H6 and a bunch of reported H's including H1b from Mesolithic Portugal 7,500-9,500ybp and 7,500 year old H in Karlie Russia. You should become one of those anti H people who assume only U5, U2,U4, and U8 existed in pre farming Europe. It is way to simple to say the huge variety of H, J, T, K, V, I, W, and X subclades in Europe arrived with farming. Because of such deep subclades and how unique are some to Europe and that we have samples of these almost exclusively European subclades in Neolithic Europe from 7,000ybp just 2,000 years after farming arrived.

So its crazy to say they evolved so quickly and especially for main European H subclades H1 and H3 where there is not much evidence they could have come from the Near east. But I do agree ancient DNA has pretty much proven the huge difference between hunter gather and farmer mtDNA and austosomal DNA. Also the autosomal DNA of the farmers show they where note exactly Near eastern. There huge amount of Meditreaen in globe13 is never found in the near east and same with their small amount of southwest Asian and west Asian. They had more southwest Asian than west Asian unlike modern Anatolians which is where farming came to Europe through. I think there Med came from a non Near eastern source maybe southeast European hunter gathers.

I still cant understand how the hunter gathers maternal lines are so rare today but their autosomal group North European is very common.

The Sunghir and Welsh samples I can almost guarantee will not be H types when they are eventually get tested properly if they ever do. Southern European samples may be so maybe the Italian one could be but those from Northern Europe and into Siberia will most likely all be U.

J Man
10-20-2013, 06:21 PM
BTW the North European autosomal component is NOT 100% descended from Mesolithic Europeans. It is a composite of Mesolithic and Neolithic alleles.

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 08:24 PM
The Sunghir and Welsh samples I can almost guarantee will not be H types when they are eventually get tested properly if they ever do. Southern European samples may be so maybe the Italian one could be but those from Northern Europe and into Siberia will most likely all be U.

Once again your assuming its not impossible the sample in Wales is H.

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 08:25 PM
BTW the North European autosomal component is NOT 100% descended from Mesolithic Europeans. It is a composite of Mesolithic and Neolithic alleles.

What evidence and sources do you have.

J Man
10-20-2013, 10:00 PM
Once again your assuming its not impossible the sample in Wales is H.

Not impossible no but unlikely.

J Man
10-20-2013, 10:02 PM
What evidence and sources do you have.

The fact that the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from both La Brana in Spain and the PWC samples are out of the range of modern variation. I have also had numerous conversations with Polako about this. He was the one who has told me that it is not a pure Mesolithic component.

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 10:32 PM
The fact that the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from both La Brana in Spain and the PWC samples are out of the range of modern variation. I have also had numerous conversations with Polako about this. He was the one who has told me that it is not a pure Mesolithic component.

What do they mean by not in modern variation do you even know? Where they specifically talking about the north Euro component or the percentage of a variety of groups. Either way it does show a big amount of hunter gather ancestry in modern Europeans not excepted with ancient mtDNA.

Fire Haired
10-20-2013, 10:34 PM
J man do you realize you pointed out those samples couldn't be H but did not include their other possibilities like HV and RO. Even though there is a much lower chance it was one of those that shows a clear bias.

lgmayka
10-21-2013, 12:01 AM
The fact that the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from both La Brana in Spain and the PWC samples are out of the range of modern variation.
This simply means that every European population living today has some (perhaps small) degree of Neolithic, Indo-European, and/or Siberian admixture. Logically, then, actual Mesolithic hunter-gatherers would be outside the modern European range.

J Man
10-21-2013, 12:12 AM
This simply means that every European population living today has some (perhaps small) degree of Neolithic, Indo-European, and/or Siberian admixture. Logically, then, actual Mesolithic hunter-gatherers would be outside the modern European range.

That is quite interesting. Polako seems to think that around 80% of the North European autosomal component may be made up of Mesolithic European alleles.

J Man
10-21-2013, 12:13 AM
J man do you realize you pointed out those samples couldn't be H but did not include their other possibilities like HV and RO. Even though there is a much lower chance it was one of those that shows a clear bias.

No I did not include those possibilities but yes they are also possibilities. I just think that U is more likely.

hyrr hqfdi
10-22-2013, 03:14 AM
J man you know that on Ancient Eurasian DNA a few had U as not a possibility. 24,000ybp HV or RO Gravettian Italy, 20,000-17,000ybp RO? Solutrian Spain, 15,000ybp RO or HV(reported as H) Magdalenian, Spain. There is also a series if reported H's from Mesolithic Portugal and two from Palaeolithic Spain including that H6. I am also a U member like you I have U4b1(pretty cool right) which was found in a 8,600 year old Mesolithic Swede named St Forvar and it seems there may be some autosomal results from him coming up based on this article Reconstructing the Human Past using Ancient and Modern Genomes (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013_09_01_archive.html). He will probably have similar results to European hunter gathers tested so far. My Y DNA haplogroup I1a2a P109 is also very ancient in Scandinavia because of Finnish branches of I1a2 L22 it arrived before Germanic languages 4,000-3,500ybp it might have a Mesolithic origin.

I think you exclude any mtDNA H from European hunter gathers and the origin of H in Europe seems to complicated right now to say it all came with farming.