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05-28-2018, 10:22 PM
I've looked all over for the origin of my SNP I-Z17926. The updated Eupedia doesn't seem to have anything on it. I found one post in the FTDNA forum about it but I couldn't post to ask a question. There doesn't seem to be many of us out there and I'm starting to feel a little lonely. I've tested up to 67 markers but have no matches beyond 12 so I don't see the point in further y testing.

deadly77
05-29-2018, 01:09 AM
Z17926 is phyloequivalent with S2320 on the YFull tree - you can see that branch here https://yfull.com/tree/I-S2320/ - this will show you several people who have taken Big Y or equivalent to determine some of the known downstream branches. You can also follow the breadcrumbs at the top to trace the route back to the I1 parent branch. It looks like this falls under I-Z17954, and so would be negative for DF29. So far out of the I1 folks tested, greater than 99% are positive for DF29. That may explain why you don't have many STR matches as it's pretty rare. There is a I1-Z17954(xDF29) project at FTDNA which you could join your STR results to here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-z131y-dna/about - doesn't seem to have a lot of people in the project (75 people), which again speaks to the rarity. It does include the email address for the project admin, so it may be worth contacting him for advice.

oz
05-29-2018, 07:26 AM
Interesting you're a non-DF29 I1, that makes you pretty unique on the forums you might be the first. What's your paternal background? Cuz I'm under the assumption that the negative for DF29s are only found in Finland or that area ? I'm not sure though.

The_Lyonnist
08-28-2018, 02:18 PM
Interesting you're a non-DF29 I1, that makes you pretty unique on the forums you might be the first. What's your paternal background? Cuz I'm under the assumption that the negative for DF29s are only found in Finland or that area ? I'm not sure though.

No, it's me, the first one! B)

I live in Villeurbanne, near Lyon. My oldest known paternal ancestor was born in Saint-Etienne, southwest of Lyon.

Z17926 from the Bronze Age. He certainly spread to Western Europe when the Indo-Europeans passed. In this case, it is a celtised I1. But nothing is 100% sure.

25570

The_Lyonnist
08-28-2018, 08:56 PM
I've looked all over for the origin of my SNP I-Z17926. The updated Eupedia doesn't seem to have anything on it. I found one post in the FTDNA forum about it but I couldn't post to ask a question. There doesn't seem to be many of us out there and I'm starting to feel a little lonely. I've tested up to 67 markers but have no matches beyond 12 so I don't see the point in further y testing.

Read my reply above.

mwauthy
08-30-2018, 01:21 PM
No, it's me, the first one! B)

I live in Villeurbanne, near Lyon. My oldest known paternal ancestor was born in Saint-Etienne, southwest of Lyon.

Z17926 from the Bronze Age. He certainly spread to Western Europe when the Indo-Europeans passed. In this case, it is a celtised I1. But nothing is 100% sure.

25570

My opinion is that all modern I1 originated in Scandinavia prior to the Indo European invasions. Maybe it was brought to Scandinavia earlier from Central/Eastern Europe during the late Neolithic. However, I think Southern Sweden would be the origin for your parent clade I-Z17954 since itís still found there today in addition to the 99% I-DF29. Not sure how your subclade got to Lyon but maybe with the Burgundians. A Germanic expansion from Southern Sweden makes more sense to me than a Celtic one.

JonikW
08-30-2018, 07:39 PM
My opinion is that all modern I1 originated in Scandinavia prior to the Indo European invasions. Maybe it was brought to Scandinavia earlier from Central/Eastern Europe during the late Neolithic. However, I think Southern Sweden would be the origin for your parent clade I-Z17954 since it’s still found there today in addition to the 99% I-DF29. Not sure how your subclade got to Lyon but maybe with the Burgundians. A Germanic expansion from Southern Sweden makes more sense to me than a Celtic one.

I agree with you on Scandinavia. It makes sense given the prevalence in southern Sweden today. I remember reading somewhere that Denmark is a contender because it shows the most diversity today so I1 has had longest to develop there. I also remember Jean M writing somewhere on this site that the Hungary Neolithic sample would be from a now extinct clade separate from the expansion that led to the current lines. I'm only a DNA layman and any views/opinions welcome. I like the idea of a Celtic I1 though!

The_Lyonnist
08-30-2018, 09:57 PM
My opinion is that all modern I1 originated in Scandinavia prior to the Indo European invasions. Maybe it was brought to Scandinavia earlier from Central/Eastern Europe during the late Neolithic. However, I think Southern Sweden would be the origin for your parent clade I-Z17954 since itís still found there today in addition to the 99% I-DF29. Not sure how your subclade got to Lyon but maybe with the Burgundians. A Germanic expansion from Southern Sweden makes more sense to me than a Celtic one.

I was talking about the expansion to England and France.

Sweden > Germany

Then, at the passage of the Celts:

Germany > France and England

09-14-2018, 02:50 AM
Family immigrated to the US from Weimar, Germany (Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach. Lutheran/Evangelisch church records go 1610 in Bad Sulza a short distance from Weimar.

09-14-2018, 02:55 AM
Thanks for the reply. There is a project at ftdna whih deals with this subclade. I joined it this summer.

villandra
12-24-2019, 03:30 AM
OMG, I think The Lyonnist is the person who lived along the Rhone River who I had lost track of and could not find again.

mrz92, could you please tell us exactly where in Europe your earliest known ancestor lived, assuming you know where they lived.

If by chance you happen to have a WHOLE lot of distant matches scattered over England and southern Scotland, please tell me that.

My brother belongs to teh thinly scattered people all over England and southern Scotland. They appear to descend from someone who lived on the eastern coast of England between London and Norwich in Norman times. These people were very often merchants and had BIG TIME trouble keeping it in their pants. They dominate much of hte Z17954/ A8080 clade outside of Z131.

I am updating my geographical information on this clade and its origins. Z17926 is a subclade of Z17943, which is a major subclade of Z17954/ A8100. Probably the largest subclade of Z17954 / A8100 is Z131, which went north with DF29.

They are saying 98% of I1 is DF29. I think it may be more than that.

I don't think I1 was born in Scandinavia. For a long time I1 project participants have observed that the oldest subclades and greatest genetic variation in haplogroup I1 appears to be in Poland. The oldest Z17943 person I find comes from Gdansk, on the Baltic coast at the mouth of one of Poland's major rivers. Most of I1 went north into Scandinavia, but Z17943 is entirely in Poland and to the southwest.

I don't think the presence of one vaguely referenced ancestral seeming person in Sweden tells us that I1 was born in Scandinavia. Half to most people in Sweden did not originate there but from nearby places like Poland and Germany. A M253 positive Neolithic skeleton has been found on the Hungarian Plain, and ancestral origins there makes far more sense.

It looks to me like the Z17926/ S2320 branch is distinctly Bronze Age, and distinctly Celtic, in Celtic times. I think it was Bell Beaker. It spread in major hops along river trade routes. We've got a couple near the mouth of the Loire River on the west coast of France. One on the Rhone. Two 30 miles apart on the upper middle Rhine. A couple spread across central Germany. A couple also in the Netherlands and Belgium but the information I have basically tells me one lives in the Netherlands and the other in Belgium. I map to town. When two of them live near each other in mainland Europe there is always thousands of years of genetic distance between them, which tells me a shared ancestor got there before Celtic times, during the Bronze Age. The clade is dated by Y Full to between 2400 and 1200 BCE.

Z17926 / S2320 splits into two clades, maybe three, but number three doesn't seem to have people. One is A8096, and its people are found in Germany and France. The other is S2308, and its people are found in Belgium, the Netherlands, England and Scotland.

Yours,
Dora

villandra
12-24-2019, 03:31 AM
Oh, you're the guy from Sulza! I had you on my map.

Dora

spruithean
12-24-2019, 05:47 PM
OMG, I think The Lyonnist is the person who lived along the Rhone River who I had lost track of and could not find again.

mrz92, could you please tell us exactly where in Europe your earliest known ancestor lived, assuming you know where they lived.

If by chance you happen to have a WHOLE lot of distant matches scattered over England and southern Scotland, please tell me that.

My brother belongs to teh thinly scattered people all over England and southern Scotland. They appear to descend from someone who lived on the eastern coast of England between London and Norwich in Norman times. These people were very often merchants and had BIG TIME trouble keeping it in their pants. They dominate much of hte Z17954/ A8080 clade outside of Z131.

I am updating my geographical information on this clade and its origins. Z17926 is a subclade of Z17943, which is a major subclade of Z17954/ A8100. Probably the largest subclade of Z17954 / A8100 is Z131, which went north with DF29.

They are saying 98% of I1 is DF29. I think it may be more than that.

I don't think I1 was born in Scandinavia. For a long time I1 project participants have observed that the oldest subclades and greatest genetic variation in haplogroup I1 appears to be in Poland. The oldest Z17943 person I find comes from Gdansk, on the Baltic coast at the mouth of one of Poland's major rivers. Most of I1 went north into Scandinavia, but Z17943 is entirely in Poland and to the southwest.

I don't think the presence of one vaguely referenced ancestral seeming person in Sweden tells us that I1 was born in Scandinavia. Half to most people in Sweden did not originate there but from nearby places like Poland and Germany. A M253 positive Neolithic skeleton has been found on the Hungarian Plain, and ancestral origins there makes far more sense.

It looks to me like the Z17926/ S2320 branch is distinctly Bronze Age, and distinctly Celtic, in Celtic times. I think it was Bell Beaker. It spread in major hops along river trade routes. We've got a couple near the mouth of the Loire River on the west coast of France. One on the Rhone. Two 30 miles apart on the upper middle Rhine. A couple spread across central Germany. A couple also in the Netherlands and Belgium but the information I have basically tells me one lives in the Netherlands and the other in Belgium. I map to town. When two of them live near each other in mainland Europe there is always thousands of years of genetic distance between them, which tells me a shared ancestor got there before Celtic times, during the Bronze Age. The clade is dated by Y Full to between 2400 and 1200 BCE.

Z17926 / S2320 splits into two clades, maybe three, but number three doesn't seem to have people. One is A8096, and its people are found in Germany and France. The other is S2308, and its people are found in Belgium, the Netherlands, England and Scotland.

Yours,
Dora

The Neolithic LBK sample from Hungary is at best pre-I1, meaning it is unlikely to be an ancestral lineage to modern I1. Same with the far older sample from Spain that was initially considered I1 but after further analysis by some users on this website it was found to be pre-I1 as well.