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Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 03:45 AM
Hello, my father tested at 23andme and his y dna haplogroup was found to be J1. He is Greek. I am new in this and I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject but I was wondering if in this case J1 is ancient/ native or if it could be due to Arab/Turkish or maybe even Avar invasions.

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 11:49 AM
J1 has lots of further branches. It would at least be helpful to determine if he is J1 (a mostly northern type) or J1e (a mostly southern type which includes Arabs). I think maybe 23andMe doesn't distinguish between them, although it used to --- https://blog.23andme.com/news/23andme-scientists-harness-linguistics-to-describe-origin-and-history-of-paternal-haplogroup-j1e/

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 12:41 PM
Try this. In his 23andMe account, at upper right, click on his name, the Browse Raw Data. In the search box, put rs34043621. Does it show anything as a result?

ArmandoR1b
06-02-2018, 12:54 PM
The direct link to rs34043621 in 23andme is https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs34043621

For those that don't know rs34043621 is P58/Page8/PF4698 which is J1a2a1a2 in the 2017 ISOGG tree (https://isogg.org/tree/2017/ISOGG_HapgrpJ17.html) which is J1e in the 2009 ISOGG tree (https://isogg.org/tree/2009/ISOGG_HapgrpJ09.html).

ArmandoR1b
06-02-2018, 01:03 PM
The J1 SNPs tested by the 23andme v5 chip are the following:



# rsid
position
SNP and synonyms
Ancestral
Derived


rs370799651
7171834
L321/PF4646
G
T


rs9341313
22741818
M267/PF4782: F4320
T
G


rs376267849
16227302
CTS5368/Z2215
G
A


i4000205
14487338
P56
A
G


i706857
14487338
P56
A
G


rs34043621
14486667
P58/Page8/PF4698
T
C


rs776291331
19136821
L818/S4972
A
G


rs201301961
6932106
L816
A
T


rs746714434
2669716
CTS15/Z1828
C
T






The results for each can be searched at https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 01:44 PM
Thank you guys!!! I will try to take a look now!

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 01:46 PM
His genotype is T

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 01:52 PM
His genotype is T

Excellent. And does he have a result for this one?

rs746714434 2669716 CTS15/Z1828

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 01:59 PM
Let me check! :-)

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 02:05 PM
It is C

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 02:14 PM
So, he doesn't have the typical Arab/Jewish type, and he doesn't have the typical Caucasus type.

Does he have a result for this one?

rs376267849 16227302 CTS5368/Z2215

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 02:19 PM
Yes! It's A.

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 02:25 PM
Well, we might as well finish Armando's list and then think about what we've got.

What are his results for these?

i4000205 14487338 P56
i706857 14487338 P56
rs776291331 19136821 L818/S4972
rs201301961 6932106 L816

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 02:39 PM
We were not as lucky this time...The first one is not listed at all (under any name) and the other three are listed but their genotype is not determined...:-(

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2018, 02:51 PM
OK then. Let's see what we've been able to squeeze out of his 23andMe results.

On this page, look at the simplified J1 tree. https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml#others

23andMe told you he was M267. That's the top box.

Then your investigation put him in Z2215, one level down.

Then your investigation showed he does not belong to Z8128 or P58. So we can cross out those two branches.

Not much left there. P56 is a southern branch, not likely for a Greek. M365 is a very small branch thought to have been carried to Portugal by Avars or something. No previous cases found in the Mediterranean.

Sorry I can't narrow this down any further for you. Retesting with Family Tree DNA might help, but it gets expensive with the add-on tests, and it seems to take forever.

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Thank you very much! This is all so interesting! So at least now we know that he is Z2215 or else J1a? I do know that Greece was invaded by Avaro-slavs during the early Middle Ages but I don't know if this can be related in any way. The islands and the coastal areas were also subjected to raids, mostly by Arab pirates. So who knows? Only testing further would help indeed but it does get expensive and I am not sure if I would do it, at least for now. Once again, thank you so much for your help!!!

Kelmendasi
06-02-2018, 06:34 PM
Use this tool https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal, upload your raw data and it will try and find your subclade

Alexandra_K
06-02-2018, 08:21 PM
Thank you, Kelmendasi, I will look at it.

ArmandoR1b
06-02-2018, 09:57 PM
Use this tool https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal, upload your raw data and it will try and find your subclade

That does something similar that J1 DYS388=13 and I did. It just looks for the result of the tested SNPs but it doesn't always report all negative SNPs and no-calls. The 23andme v5 test has all of the same SNPs in it's list of tested SNPs for all customers so the Morley tool isn't going to find any other SNPs that are current. That tool at times has an incorrect prediction because it uses a tree from 2013 which has SNPs that were unreliable.

ArmandoR1b
06-02-2018, 11:33 PM
I did a little digging. I found this Pontic & Anatolian Greeks DNA page https://www.familytreedna.com/public/russiangreeks?iframe=yresults which shows most of the J1 people to be positive for Z1828 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/) which is downstream from Z2215 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2215/).

Z2217 is tested by the J1-M267 Superclade Panel at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693

I suggest getting that panel to find the most downstream subclade that the panel tests for.

J1 DYS388=13
06-03-2018, 04:27 AM
I did a little digging. I found this Pontic & Anatolian Greeks DNA page https://www.familytreedna.com/public/russiangreeks?iframe=yresults which shows most of the J1 people to be positive for Z1828 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/) which is downstream from Z2215 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2215/).

Z2217 is tested by the J1-M267 Superclade Panel at https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=30693

I suggest getting that panel to find the most downstream subclade that the panel tests for.

Good idea. This is more detail than you get with Family Tree DNA.

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 05:25 AM
Thank you, Armando R1b!

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 06:16 PM
Hello again! I uploaded my father's 23andme raw data to Wegene and the result for paternal haplogroup was J1a2a1a1 (!!!) instead of just J1, which was provided by 23andme. Do you think I can trust this result?!

Kelmendasi
06-03-2018, 07:02 PM
Hello again! I uploaded my father's 23andme raw data to Wegene and the result for paternal haplogroup was J1a2a1a1 (!!!) instead of just J1, which was provided by 23andme. Do you think I can trust this result?!
I am pretty sure J1a2a1a1 is another name for J1-PF7264 or J1-ZS4393 which the father clade of J1-P56 and J1-PF7263.

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2018, 07:06 PM
Hello again! I uploaded my father's 23andme raw data to Wegene and the result for paternal haplogroup was J1a2a1a1 (!!!) instead of just J1, which was provided by 23andme. Do you think I can trust this result?!

Yes because J1a2a1a1 is defined by PF7264 and it is downstream from Z2215 there is not a reverse mutation on that position and it isn't a false positive in the kits that I have. It is i703425 in the raw data. Position 7842079. C is negative and G is positive. You can check your result at https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=i703425

I didn't have that SNP in the tree that I used so I'll have to update the tree that I used. It's good that we verified the upstream result of Z2215 first.

It's position in the tree can be seen at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS4393/

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 07:06 PM
Hello Kelmendasi and thank you! Do you know something more about this clade?

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 07:07 PM
I hope Wegene is accurate 😎

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 07:32 PM
Thank you too, Armando! I checked it and it is a G.

Kelmendasi
06-03-2018, 07:58 PM
Hello Kelmendasi and thank you! Do you know something more about this clade?
No problem. I would say that ZS4393/PF7264 expanded from eastern Anatolia which is where it ancestor, L136, seems to have originated. It's descendant branch PF7263 seems to have moved in the rest of Anatolia, the middle east and Europe whilst it's other descendant, P56, moved down to the red sea and crossed it. I would say that your father possibly is PF7263 under ZS4393 and that this clade may have arrived to Europe during the Bronze Age with links to cultures like the Kura-Araxes or later on, there isn't much info on this haplogroup so this is all guess work. The main J1 clade among Serbs is actually PF7263

Alexandra_K
06-03-2018, 08:06 PM
Very interesting!

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2018, 10:58 PM
I hope Wegene is accurate ��


Thank you too, Armando! I checked it and it is a G.

Now you have the proof that it is accurate.

In case you are interested in knowing how it is proven - The ISOGG SNP Index is here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UY26FvLE3UmEmYFiXgOy0uezJi_wOut-V5TD0a_6-bE/edit#gid=1934392066) You have to use Build 37 to cross reference the position with your raw data. The Ybrowse hg19 file is here (http://ybrowse.org/gbrowse2/gff/snps_hg19.vcf.gz). There is a column that say start which is the start position. Both of those files have PF7264 as position 7842079 and 23andme has that position as i703425.

Alexandra_K
06-04-2018, 04:32 AM
Great! Thank you! I will take a look later from my computer since here the links cannot be opened.
So you all agree that his proven sub-haplogroup is PF7264? And then probably PF6263? Would testing with FTDNA enhance the research for the origin of his haplogroup or is this as far as it gets? Also,according to your experience is comparing with other users of FTDNA an important parameter or not so much?

Alexandra_K
06-04-2018, 04:33 AM
I meant PF7263 above.

J1 DYS388=13
06-04-2018, 07:32 AM
Great! Thank you! I will take a look later from my computer since here the links cannot be opened.
So you all agree that his proven sub-haplogroup is PF7264? And then probably PF6263? Would testing with FTDNA enhance the research for the origin of his haplogroup or is this as far as it gets? Also,according to your experience is comparing with other users of FTDNA an important parameter or not so much?

Well when FTDNA's J1 Project abandoned the updating of its J1 tree ( http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree ) there were further branches. You can cross-reference and identify those cases by looking at the small number at the lower right of the box, ignore the #, and looking up the case here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=yresults You need to set the Page Size to 9999 to display all the cases. I don't have time to look them up for you at the moment. But I have two concerns. One is that I don't think FTDNA tests in that much detail any more. Second is that even the youngest branch is about 1,758 years old, so what could you conclude from being in that branch? I'm not being negative, just cautious.

Alexandra_K
06-04-2018, 07:48 AM
Well when FTDNA's J1 Project abandoned the updating of its J1 tree ( http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree ) there were further branches. You can cross-reference and identify those cases by looking at the small number at the lower right of the box, ignore the #, and looking up the case here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=yresults You need to set the Page Size to 9999 to display all the cases. I don't have time to look them up for you at the moment. But I have two concerns. One is that I don't think FTDNA tests in that much detail any more. Second is that even the youngest branch is about 1,758 years old, so what could you conclude from being in that branch? I'm not being negative, just cautious.

Your concerns sound pretty rational to me. I was just very curious to understand the possible origin of the haplogroup in the case of my father but if you all agree that J PF7264 is a correct finding, I think I am good with it.
By the way, do you think the following summarizes the info one needs to know about this branch well?:

"J1-P56 (PF7263, PF7264) formed nearly 14300 years ago. Today, it is mostly seen among Europeans in East/Central Europe, and moderately among original Turkic people (Oghuz tribes) in Turkey, Iran and Azerbaijan. In this sense, a few P56 samples in Yemen could be related to recent historic migrations from Turkey to Yemen during the Ottoman or Seljuk period or before that because this lineage is not common among other Arabic people, and it is not seen in Arabia, Levant and North Africa as well. In this sense, historical periods can be effective for the expansion of J1-P56." (http://www.haplogroups.org/haplogroup-j1-y-dna-m267)

I don't know if one can go even further on to distinguish between the East/Central Europe branch and the Turkic branch (if they are indeed different branches as I understood?).
So, to conclude, if we assume he belongs to J1 PF7263 (European?), this means that in a way its origin is not historical but ancient (therefore not due to more recent invasions).

J1 DYS388=13
06-04-2018, 08:02 AM
Before concluding that, I would see how dispersed the cases in that J1 tree are, to see if they form any sort of geographical cluster.

Alexandra_K
06-04-2018, 08:05 AM
ok, I'll try to do so!

J1 DYS388=13
06-04-2018, 08:08 AM
I assumed you were in the United States. But it's the middle of the night there right now!

Alexandra_K
06-04-2018, 08:12 AM
Oh, ok! No, I am in Greece, sorry! :-)

Alexandra_K
06-05-2018, 05:11 AM
Hello again! I tried to follow your instructions but I have to admit I didn't really get it in the end... I could just spot the branch (PF7264/3) on the tree and that's it. I don't really get the small number at the right that you described. There is one concerning the SNP's I think. And then I got totally lost with the list of people. 😊

J1 DYS388=13
06-05-2018, 05:23 AM
OK I will do that for you later.

Alexandra_K
06-05-2018, 06:23 AM
OK I will do that for you later.

Thank you very very much!!!

J1 DYS388=13
06-05-2018, 08:52 AM
So in the FTDNA J1 Project’s tree, PF7263 has two branches, ZS4376 and Z28138.

The ZS4376 is estimated to have formed 3,460 years ago.

There are no cases with only ZS4376; instead there are two further branches.

One is ZS8957. That case is German.

The other branch of ZS4376 is ZS4407. ZS4407 is estimated to have formed 2,998 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS4407; instead there are three further branches.

One is ZS4375. That case is French.

The second is ZS9949. ZS9949 is estimated to have formed 1,758 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS9949; instead there are two further branches. One is a German case, the other is a Croatian case.

The third is ZS10589. ZS10589 is estimated to have formed 2,975 years ago. There are no cases with just ZS10589; instead there are two further branches. One is a Ukrainian case, the other is a Saudi Arabian case.

Besides the extensively tested cases in the tree, many cases which look similar are grouped on the list at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=yresults. If that clustering is correct, PF7263 has:
— an English and German cluster
— a German cluster
— a Greek cluster of only one person (Yavit of Davut Thessaloniki)
— a Kuwaiti and Iraqi cluster
— an Iraqi, Turkish, and Azerbaijani cluster

ZS4376 has:
— a person named Sliwinski from ?
— a German and Canary Islands cluster
— a French cluster (just one person)
— a Bulgarian cluster (just one person)

ZS9949 has a cluster of German, Croatian, and Bosnian Herzegovinan cases

ZS10589 has:
— a case Maragoudakis from Sassalos Crete
— a case from Spain
— a cluster with cases from Portugal, Ukraine, Lithuania, and Russia
— a cluster with cases from Calabria, Germany, Ukraine, and France
— a Saudi and Yemeni cluster

So what can we conclude from all that? I’ll pause here and come back to this tomorrow.

Alexandra_K
06-05-2018, 09:39 AM
Wow, so much new info, you're amazing, thank you!!! I don't know exactly either but the two cases from Greece drew my attention even more. Yavit of Davut does not sound Greek as a name, of course, I wonder what his ethnicity would be (Turkish?). And then Maragoudakis might have something to do with what we are looking for...Crete and Kephalonia must have had some connection. It is just a hypothesis. Or else all the Balkan cases...

levantino
06-05-2018, 07:24 PM
First, sorry for my bad english

You also have Venardos from Agia Anastasia on island Kythira. he is considered J1 PF7263 cluster D. Main iference between him and Maragoudakis is in DYS390. Maragoudakis have 24 and Venardos 25

Alexandra_K
06-05-2018, 08:43 PM
Thank you, Levantino! Crete, Kythira and Kephalonia form even geographically a sort of continuation. Some connection could be possible rationally speaking.

J1 DYS388=13
06-06-2018, 07:21 AM
It seems we have done more analysis of the J1 PF7263 branch than anyone.

I’ll write out what I think we are seeing. Readers can point out my mistakes.

So we see first of all that the PF7263 branch is not geographically specific.

Shall we speculate on where it was formed?

The PF7263 branch was formed an estimated 6,841 years ago. That is during the Neolithic, but long after farming people moved from Anatolia to Europe.

Since the PF7263 branch seems to have a Kuwaiti and Iraqi cluster and an Iraqi, Turkish, and Azerbaijani cluster, it would be a reasonable assumption that the branch originated in or near Anatolia.

Since there are two branches of PF7263, namely ZS4376 and ZS9949, which seem to be entirely European, and another, namely ZS10589, which is European except for a Saudi and Yemeni cluster which I can’t explain*, it is reasonable to assume those branches formed in Europe. Their ages then suggest how long those branches of PF7263 have been in Europe: 2,998 years, 1,758 years, and 2,975 years.

Thanks to Alexandra and Levantino we now know there are four present-day cases of PF7263 in Greece.

With Greece being the closest place in Europe to Anatolia, I think we must assume that PF7263 first arrived in Greece, and expanded from Greece.

When PF7263 arrived in Greece is difficult to say. It is possible that PF7263 has been in Greece since the Bronze Age, or even since the Neolithic.

And I see no support for any assumption that PF7263 arrived in Greece/Europe with any invaders.

——————————

*When I see the “tail” of an apparently European haplogroup extending into Muslim lands, I avoid dealing with that. Some people are very touchy about what it might imply.

Alexandra_K
06-06-2018, 08:11 AM
Wow! So great that you could infer all this from our conversation! I am glad to have contributed a little with my data. A great thank you to you J1 DYS388=13 and to the rest of you as well!

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 01:49 PM
Hello again guys! I was wondering, if I would be able to afford it in the future, would doing the FTDNA Y-37 test give us any more specific important information? Like, would it be able to place my father under a specific branch of PF7263? Or in order to do that one would have to test at the 67 or maybe even at a higher level (111, big Y). The only one I would be able to afford in the future is the Y-37 so I am wondering if it would be enough to place him under some specific branch or not. Logically thinking (but you never know of course) he could share the same cluster with Venardos. We are just speculating with my father and getting more and more curious to find out.
Also, concerning my male cousins from my mother's side, once in the future it is my aim to have one of them tested. They have had no test whatsoever until now. My interest in having one of them tested is due to my wish to find out the haplogroup of my maternal grandfather. His paternal line was allegedly a line of Arvanite Souliots (original surname= Markou) connected to the Botsaris family. So I am curious to see if his haplogroup corresponds in some way (although not sure if there exists such a thing as an Arvanite/Albanian haplogroup). In this case for which test should they aim? I was thinking that they would find the autosomal part interesting too but the FTDNA package (autosomal and Y-37) is too expensive. Would the 23andme test be enough in this case?
Thank you

J1 DYS388=13
07-01-2018, 03:11 PM
The answer to your first question is no. Additional STRs are no help. The tree is defined by SNPs.

I don't know the answer to your second question. Maybe someone else does.

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 03:21 PM
Hello! So, in the first case (excuse my total ignorance) which test would help - if any?

J1 DYS388=13
07-01-2018, 05:38 PM
The BigY used to be the test for all the SNPs. But Family Tree DNA has made the BigY results very difficult to understand, so I don't recommend it. Sorry.

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 07:33 PM
No problem, anyways I cannot afford it..😕 As far as I understand it is pretty certain that he is PF7263 so that's already enough in a way.
I have noticed that (probably they were among the cases you had mentioned too) there are also some Serbians with PF7263. I read that in their case they must date back to settlements in the Balkans during the Middle Ages or else the Roman times. And somewhere else I read that PF7263 and especially the cases from France, Germany etc. can be linked to a Jewish man living in France around 800 AD.
In the case of my father, maybe none of the above apply. As you said, it must be more characteristic of much more ancient settlements in the Mediterranean.

BMK
07-01-2018, 07:54 PM
Hotspot of Serbs (including PF7263 Croatian Serb from FTDNA) who are PF7263+ is with high probability in Eastern Herzegovina.

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 07:58 PM
Thank you, BMK!

Jatt1
07-01-2018, 08:13 PM
Hello! So, in the first case (excuse my total ignorance) which test would help - if any?

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=30693

23andme for to test maternal uncle or cousin.

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 08:25 PM
Thank you too, Jatt1! So this test could get you further than PF7263?
23andme sounds like a good solution for the maternal cousin. At least it includes autosomal analysis too and it is more affordable.

Jatt1
07-01-2018, 09:40 PM
Thank you too, Jatt1! So this test could get you further than PF7263?
23andme sounds like a good solution for the maternal cousin. At least it includes autosomal analysis too and it is more affordable.

Yes, it is the cheapest solution.

Alexandra_K
07-01-2018, 10:04 PM
Thanks again, I'll have it in mind!!

Jatt1
07-01-2018, 10:15 PM
Thank you too, Jatt1! So this test could get you further than PF7263?
23andme sounds like a good solution for the maternal cousin. At least it includes autosomal analysis too and it is more affordable.

It appears to be more complicated , best is to email yseq people and get some direction from them. if downstream of PF7263 you come out to be PF7264 then they have a very expensive panel just for PF 7264. This is where you are now PF7263=ZS4416, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS4416/

So don't waste your money better make sure you don't just come back again with PF7263= ZS4416 after the test also, you already know that you are ZS4416.

Alexandra_K
07-02-2018, 05:41 AM
Thank you Jatt1! I will send them an e-mail to ask.

Alexandra_K
08-17-2018, 09:17 AM
Hello again! In the end we decided to order the Alpha Beta panel from y-seq and we got the following results:

The predicted haplogroup is J1-PF7264.
We recommend to test PF7264 for verification. https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?currency=EUR&products_id=30040

DYS464 is still processing.

Testing PF7264 costs only 15 euros so I think we will go for it.

Full results:

FTDNA Format:
FTDNA PANEL 1 (1-12)
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II
Value 12 24 14 10 12-18 10 15 12 12 11 29
FTDNA PANEL 2 (13-25)
Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
Value 18.2 8-9 11 11 24 14 20 28
FTDNA PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 9 19-22 15 14 17 18 31-37 14 10


My Allele Results
SampleID Ordered Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
15974 2018-07-28 CDY ChrY 26152021 26152296 31-37
15974 free CDY ChrY 26152021 26152296 31-37
15974 free DYS19 ChrY 9521934 9522128 14
15974 free DYS385 ChrY 20801456 20801824 12-18
15974 free DYS388 ChrY 14747462 14747617 15
15974 free DYS389I ChrY 14612070 14612316 12
15974 free DYS389II ChrY 14612070 14612316 29
15974 2018-07-28 DYS390 ChrY 17274874 17275219 24
15974 free DYS390 ChrY 17274874 17275219 24
15974 free DYS391 ChrY 14102758 14103044 10
15974 free DYS392 ChrY 22633758 22634011 11
15974 free DYS393 ChrY 3131128 3131246 12
15974 free DYS426 ChrY 19134813 19134909 10
15974 free DYS437 ChrY 14466964 14467155 14
15974 free DYS438 ChrY 14937795 14938015 10
15974 free DYS439 ChrY 14515159 14515410 12
15974 free DYS442 ChrY 14761064 14761368 14
15974 free DYS447 ChrY 15278692 15278902 24
15974 free DYS448 ChrY 24365000 24365293 20
15974 free DYS449 ChrY 8217908 8218262 28
15974 free DYS454 ChrY 8224083 8224282 11
15974 free DYS455 ChrY 6911459 6911638 11
15974 free DYS456 ChrY 4270942 4271090 15
15974 free DYS458 ChrY 7867839 7867961 18.2
15974 free DYS459 ChrY 26078790 26078941 8-9
15974 free DYS460 ChrY 21050798 21050966 11
15974 free DYS570 ChrY 6861115 6861370 18
15974 free DYS576 ChrY 7053302 7053492 17
15974 2018-07-28 DYS607 ChrY 18414306 18414498 14
15974 free DYS607 ChrY 18414306 18414498 14
15974 free DYS724 ChrY 26152021 26152296 31-37
15974 free Y-GATA-H4 ChrY 18743384 18743751 10
15974 free YCAII ChrY 19622083 19622240 19-22
Back

eastara
08-24-2018, 12:46 AM
J1-PF7264 is found also in Bulgaria, but the sample has no STR matches at any level and differs from the above haplotype.

Alexandra_K
09-02-2018, 08:33 PM
Thank you Eastara,
I just saw your response now. In the meanwhile we tested further and we have already confirmed he belongs to PF7263. Will probably test further for more detail.

Alexandra_K
09-13-2018, 05:47 PM
I would like to inform you about the new discoveries concerning the y-haplogroup of my father. So he tested further at Yseq and he is now confirmed to be J1 PF7263+ and ZS4452+. He already tested negative for ZS10589. I could also post his STR values if you think it can be helpful. Any ideas as to what to do next? Thank you!

J1 DYS388=13
09-13-2018, 06:03 PM
You have done very, very well. According to the company YFull, PF7263 and ZS4452 are both the same as ZS4416. And so far, ZS4416 has been found in Cagliari and Messina in Italy. Look up those places on a map. Add your father's place of paternal ancestry, and you have localised it with those three cases. https://yfull.com/tree/J-ZS4416/. And ZS4416 is about 3,400 years old.

Alexandra_K
09-13-2018, 06:22 PM
Thank you, once again, J1 DYS388=13! Wow, this is great! :-) Any hypothesis about its possible origin now that it is more localized?

J1 DYS388=13
09-13-2018, 06:35 PM
Well, what was happening in 1400 BC? Everything! And where was the center of it all? Greece? The evidence so far suggests ZS4416 is native to Greece and spread west from there.

Alexandra_K
09-13-2018, 06:36 PM
Cool! :-) Thank you so much!

J1 DYS388=13
09-13-2018, 06:50 PM
I found another match. Guess where --- Greece. Maragoudakis - Sassalos,Crete,Greece https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267?iframe=ysnp.

Maybe more on that page. Ooh, there's a good one, 423255 Kurdish from Iraq. I must be wrong about a Greek origin. What was happening in north of Mesopotamia in 1400 BC? Any interaction with Greeks?

This is interesting, wish I knew more about that era.

Anyway, never mind the Kurdish ethnicity. This means you have traced your father's Y-DNA back to the homeland of J1.

Alexandra_K
09-13-2018, 07:13 PM
According to some other J1 PF7263 guys who are also helping and guiding me in this research a lot, I do not match Maragoudakis or Venardos who are both Greeks. Something about a value being 14 in my dad's case rather than 13 or 15? Sorry but I am still struggling to understand and memorize this stuff :) I am not sure about the Kurdish case, but I think my fellow J1 PF7263 kind of thinks that this case too is different than ours (due to similar reasons if I remember well).
Wish I knew more too...I will have to read again ;-)

J1 DYS388=13
09-13-2018, 07:26 PM
SNPs define the tree. These cases are on the same branch. If you also have STR values for cases on the same branch, you can get a rough estimate of how long ago their common ancestor lived using http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm

BMK
09-13-2018, 08:22 PM
I’m glad to see that Serb guys from Serbian DNA Project helped you. :)

Alexandra_K
09-13-2018, 09:32 PM
Oh, yes! They certainly did! More than I would have wished for! :-) Very kind and nice people...:-) Thank you BMK for your suggestion!

Alexandra_K
09-14-2018, 05:13 AM
Ok, I remembered why I am not connected to Maragoudakis. He is under ZS10589 which I already tested negative for. Is the Iraqi Kurd under BY38105? I haven't tested this SNP yet.

levantino
09-14-2018, 06:19 AM
Hello, I am Radon from Serbian DNA project. I will try to explain my opinion. Sorry for my english.

Firs, we have some discrepancies between Viktar Mas tree and YFull tree. When I work, I mostly work with Viktar Mas tree. It's old but is still gold

(Interesting, it looks I can't put links on because I am not authorised)

Viktar estimate PF7263 to be 6800 old (4800 BC), and under it we have ZS4376 (4600 BP; common for ZS4452 and Goss) and ZS4452 (2990 BP; common for other who were tested). Under ZS4452 we have more independent branches: ZS4375 (Moray), ZS9952 (Maksimovic and Ruddenklau) and ZS10589 which is biggest branch, gathering people from Near East (North-western Saudi Arabia and Yemen) and Europe, some with Jewish heritage some without it, like Margoudakis. Viktar estimation for ZS10589 is about 2900 years before present, on the result of Vanett and Huseini

Yfull tee is little different. It don't recognize SNPs between PF7263 (or ZS4416 how they call it) and ZS10589. So the ZS4376 and ZS4452 are gone. Second, there estimation of ZS10589 is 3400 BP, what means that they place it on the place of ZS4376. I don't think that Viktar make so big mistake, especially when ZS4376 and ZS4452 are in use for so long.

Also, we have Yseq tree which don't have time estimations but it's structure is more close to Viktar tree

And here we are. Alexandra is positive on ZS4452 and negative on ZS10589 what is branch of Margoudakis. I don' belive that she is ZS9952 becose thay have DYS388-18 and Alexandra have 15 like most in the group. For ZS4375 (Moray) we don't know what SNPs are his private and what he share with some wider community. As I already said she is not ZS10589. So she can be other some independent branch (I believe this is her case) or BY38105

This BY38105 is a new marker which show in last year in one man in Norway, one in Portugal and one in Iraq (Rashed). From them, only Rashed results are available. Norwey man don't have markers in the table of J1 project but he can be found in map of J1 project. Rashed result is very important because he is positive on ZS4452 what place him in same level as ZS9952 and ZS10589.

More of that, he was previously placed in the group with Maataqi and Amoor from Kuwait. Maataqi is part of Marafie FTDNA project, tribe what came in Kuwait from Alkofa (Kufa?) in today Iraq. In that area we have many PF7263, some of them been confirmed positive on ZS4376 (two Kurds from J1 DNA project) Unfortunately I don't know if they were tested on ZS4452 but I believe they should be positive on it and also on BY38106

So, if I am right, biggest variance should be in Levant area (oldest samples are from Sardinia and Germany; I am not sure about position in PF7263 man from Messina) and not in Mesopotamia.

So I rest my case:amen: Please, give your critical review

And this is too much english for me in the morning.

And how I get to put some links in my messages?

Alexandra_K
09-14-2018, 07:24 AM
Hello Radon,
Thank you for summing it all up so nicely! :-)
I think that posting links had worked for me the other time, I wouldn't know why it doesn't work either.
I will try posting here the link you had sent me:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LZFGhhjyLN1SpjYuJEfE_QRDjj9vNIL2/view?usp=sharing

levantino
09-14-2018, 01:29 PM
Well it looks like I still can't put links in messages. If anything would be needed, I will first send it to you through Poreklo

Alexandra_K
09-14-2018, 01:55 PM
Ok, Radon, sure! :) Strange that you cannot post any links, wonder why...

Agamemnon
09-14-2018, 02:00 PM
Hello, I am Radon from Serbian DNA project. I will try to explain my opinion. Sorry for my english.

Firs, we have some discrepancies between Viktar Mas tree and YFull tree. When I work, I mostly work with Viktar Mas tree. It's old but is still gold

Totally second that.

MacUalraig
09-14-2018, 02:41 PM
Ok, Radon, sure! :) Strange that you cannot post any links, wonder why...

New members can't post links in case they are about sunglasses or V-i-a-g-r-a.

Alexandra_K
09-14-2018, 04:01 PM
A, ok :-D thank you!

Alexandra_K
09-18-2018, 07:53 PM
Mystery solved! He is BY38105+ :-D
Thank you all for your contribution!!!

Alexandra_K
09-19-2018, 04:09 AM
In the same cluster, there is a man from Sicily (Messina), a man from Portugal, one from Norway and one from Iraq (I think).

Volat
09-19-2018, 05:15 AM
Good people came to us were saints Cyril and Methodius bringing us alpahbet, so we could record our history. Cyril and Methodius are considered saints coming to us from what is today northern Greece and Macedonia.

Alexandra_K
09-19-2018, 05:44 AM
If only they had made the alphabet still a little more similar to the Greek alphabet :-) I am currently learning Serbian on my own and I am struggling like hell with the Cyrillic alphabet, haha :-D

Volat
09-19-2018, 09:08 AM
Takes an hour or two and encouragement to learn any 30-35 symbols.

Alexandra_K
09-19-2018, 09:29 AM
Phew! So it's not only me! :-) I have to confess I have cursed at poor Cyrillus and Methodius quite a few times lately :-D

Volat
09-19-2018, 09:46 AM
Phew! So it's not only me! :-) I have to confess I have cursed at poor Cyrillus and Methodius quite a few times lately :-D

Their alphabet poor or not is the subject of a debate. Before them we didn't have much written about ourselves. They are 'saints' in eastern Orthodox church for a reason. Both came from the region in which your Slavic ancestors lived.

Alexandra_K
09-19-2018, 10:43 AM
Don't get me wrong, I was just being humoristic :-) Of course, they became saints for a reason and I really appreciate what they did too! Plus your alphabet is not poor at all! It is richer than ours ;-), that's why I find it difficult. The difficulty for me lies also in the fact that some letters are similar to the Greek ones but then not the same, whereas others are really complex. They surely did a great job! Although, sometimes I wish they had kept the Greek alphabet more or less unchanged so that we Greeks would be able to learn to read or write Slavic languages more easily (and vice versa: Slavic people would more easily learn Greek). :-)
Indeed, the two brothers came from Northern Greece but not Epirus, Thessaloniki which is in Macedonia.
I really respect them and their work, don't get me wrong ;-)