A4a1 from Greece

[Alexandra_K]

Hello,
I come from Greece and my mtdna haplogroup is A4a1. I have posted about it here before but have gotten no responses yet so I decided to give in another try in a new thread :-)
Can anybody help me acquire an idea of its possible origin in relation to Greece? (Northwestern Greece, area of Ioannina)
Thank you in advance

[Michalis Moriopoulos]

Kalimera from the States. A4 is an East Asian hap so I would assume you probably have a Turkic-speaking maternal ancestor somewhere in the woodpile. As far as I know this haplogroup isn't even all that common in Turkey, but given that you're Greek, a Turkish origin makes the most sense to me...

[Alexandra_K]

Kalimera, Michali! Thank you for answering! Yes indeed, I was told that it may have come either from a Turkish or an Avar/Avaroslavic woman. Truth is all are possible in the case of our village/area in Ioannina, Epirus.
The village itself was an initial Slavic settlement (Tsarkovista). But I know from historical sources that Slavic male settlers married mostly to local women. They must have been Vajunites. Then it was conquered by Bulgarians (also possible Avar source?), by Serbs and in the end by the Ottomans.
Although the Turkish presence there was much longer than this of the other invaders (except for the Slavs that stayed there and were gradually assimilated) , my only doubt is the following: do you think it was probable for a Turkish woman to marry into a family of locals? (mixture of Romioi, Slavs, Vlachs and Arvanites?). The other way around must have been more probable (a Turkish man having a wife of Greek/Balkan origin). But of course it could have been a rare exception.

[J1 DYS388=13]

There's no A4 on Phylotree --- http://www.phylotree.org/tree/A.htm

I suggest you do this free analysis and see if your haplogroup has another name --- https://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/23andMe.html

[Alexandra_K]

Hello! That's the name 23andme uses. I did do it yesterday coincidentally (James Lick) and it comes out as A1a there which is the new name of A4a1. James Lick told me that no further analysis is needed because it is quite certain that this is the final result.

[J1 DYS388=13]

You are a very good researcher.

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you! 😄

[Thracian88]

What about your autosomal DNA? I think that auDNA could give you more info about your ancestors.

[Afshar]

Its quite atypical for greece, there is some minor presence in Turkey so its probably some Turkish maternal ancestor along the line, which you can probably detect in your autosomal dna also ( if that is thecase)

[Alexandra_K]

Hello, Thracian88 and Afshar and thank you! Well, no company has ever given me West Asian etc. except for Ancestry before the update? (4% Caucasus). Now it completely vanished as noise (according to their explanation). I do get high Balkan percentages always and in some companies, even Eastern European, ranging from 4-14%. Also Italian (updated Ancestry 29%! and updated 23andme 12%). The Italian must come mainly from my father who has tested at 23andme too and has the double percentage compared to me.
Since A1a is indeed atypical for Greece I guess it must come from a historical co-existence as you say (either with the Turkish or Avars etc.) so normally it should be able to show in autosomal dna, right? Or not necessarily?
Also, my mother (whose line this is about) has tested at MyHeritage and I have uploaded her results to other vendors too (Gencove, Geneplaza, Gedmatch, DNA.land, FTDNA). She too has no West Asian except for at Geneplaza - West Asian: Caucasian (Georgians) 2,6% and Southwest Asians (Bedouin B, Saudi)0,7%). I don't know if she would have gotten the same as me at Ancestry in the past (4% Caucasus) before the update, because as you know no transfer option from other vendors is available for Ancestry.

[Alexandra_K]

If you think it can be helpful I can try posting at least some of our results here.

[Afshar]

It does not have to show, but it might give a hint, if its actually recent shared heritage. Did you test at 23andme?

[Alexandra_K]

Hello, Afshar! Yes, I did. My initial results were as follows:
- 86 % Balkan (5 dots for Greece, 5 dots for Albania, 2 dots for Macedonia, 1 for Serbia, 1 for Croatia and 1 for Romania)
- 9 % Italian
- 0,4% Eastern European
- 0,1 East Asian and Native American
- rest: broadly Southern European and unassigned

After the very recent update they changed to:
- 85,8 Balkan (same dots)
- 12,8 Italian
- 0,1 South Asian (broadly SA)
- 1,2 broadly Southern European

My ancestry DNA results before the very recent update:

- 71% Southern Europe (Italy and Greece)
- 14% Eastern European
- 5% Middle Eastern
- 4% Caucasian
- 2% British
- 2% Western Europe
- 1% European Jewish
- <1% Iberian

After the update:

- 73% Greece and the Balkans
- 27% Italy

[Alexandra_K]

This is my Eurogenes K13 Oracle:

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.18
2 West_Med 21.67
3 Baltic 18.21
4 North_Atlantic 16.97
5 West_Asian 12.62
6 Red_Sea 3.75
7 East_Asian 1.20


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 3.666719
2 Central_Greek @ 9.449551
3 Bulgarian @ 10.079420
4 East_Sicilian @ 10.860690
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.576796
6 West_Sicilian @ 12.273549
7 Romanian @ 13.143967
8 Ashkenazi @ 13.440406
9 Tuscan @ 13.884970
10 South_Italian @ 14.375315
11 Serbian @ 18.004507
12 North_Italian @ 18.399658
13 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.174377
14 Italian_Jewish @ 20.796219
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.003513
16 Moldavian @ 23.899855
17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 24.682604
18 Libyan_Jewish @ 24.937746
19 Cyprian @ 26.493221
20 Croatian @ 27.444063

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Central_Greek @ 3.605400


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Central_Greek +25% East_Sicilian @ 3.551438


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
1 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.652073
2 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 2.689845
3 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 2.898541
4 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.154184
5 Ashkenazi + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.164341
6 Central_Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.260642
7 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Belorussian + Sardinian @ 3.278632
8 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.278685
9 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.314328
10 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.320706
11 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.333169
12 Central_Greek + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.342300
13 Bulgarian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.371904
14 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.372509
15 Croatian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.382109
16 Greek_Thessaly + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.387726
17 Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Greek_Thessaly @ 3.395472
18 Ashkenazi + Iranian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.397145
19 Algerian_Jewish + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Ukrainian @ 3.414869
20 Assyrian + Central_Greek + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.415889

[Alexandra_K]

I also have results from MyHeritage and transfers to DNA.land, Geneplaza, Gencove, FTDNA and Wegene, haha...I can post them if you think they might have something more to offer.

[Alexandra_K]

Out of curiosity I uploaded my 23andme data on Gedmatch (I had uploaded just my myHeritage data in the past) and just for fun I post here the K13 results based on the 23andme data. There are some differences:

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit M829874

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.06
2 West_Med 22.28
3 Baltic 19.01
4 North_Atlantic 14.63
5 West_Asian 13.03
6 Red_Sea 4.27
7 Northeast_African 1.03
8 Siberian 0.35
9 East_Asian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.25
2 Central_Greek 9.08
3 Bulgarian 9.95
4 East_Sicilian 10.19
5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.8
6 West_Sicilian 12.24
7 Ashkenazi 12.28
8 Romanian 12.69
9 South_Italian 13.28
10 Tuscan 14.09
11 Serbian 16.85
12 Algerian_Jewish 17.88
13 North_Italian 17.91
14 Italian_Jewish 18.72
15 Sephardic_Jewish 18.97
16 Moldavian 21.38
17 Tunisian_Jewish 21.89
18 Libyan_Jewish 22.13
19 Cyprian 22.63
20 Turkish 23.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.5% Bulgarian + 28.5% Cyprian @ 4.61
2 83.1% Central_Greek + 16.9% Erzya @ 4.73
3 81% East_Sicilian + 19% Erzya @ 4.93
4 76.8% Bulgarian + 23.2% Samaritan @ 4.95
5 66.6% Bulgarian + 33.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.99
6 84.7% Central_Greek + 15.3% Lithuanian @ 5.01
7 81.8% Central_Greek + 18.2% Southwest_Russian @ 5.01
8 82.9% Central_Greek + 17.1% Estonian_Polish @ 5.02
9 83.3% Central_Greek + 16.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.03
10 95.9% Greek_Thessaly + 4.1% Kabardin @ 5.05
11 52.1% Cyprian + 47.9% Croatian @ 5.06
12 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Adygei @ 5.07
13 96.1% Greek_Thessaly + 3.9% Balkar @ 5.07
14 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Abhkasian @ 5.07
15 96.4% Greek_Thessaly + 3.6% North_Ossetian @ 5.08
16 82% Central_Greek + 18% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.08
17 51.5% Moldavian + 48.5% Cyprian @ 5.09
18 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Georgian @ 5.09
19 80.7% Central_Greek + 19.3% Ukrainian @ 5.1
20 96% Greek_Thessaly + 4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.1

[Sorcelow]

Could you provide your myheritage kit number?

[Alexandra_K]

You mean on Gedmatch?

[Alexandra_K]

Excuse me for not understanding everything yet, if you mean my Gedmatch kit number which refers to the transferred data from MyHeritage, then it is H791465.

[Alexandra_K]

I realized later that I uploaded my 23andme data using Gedmatch's older system (not the Genesis) so I went on to re-upload this time with the Genesis. The results are again a bit different. I am getting a bit lost in all this, haha...

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit CC2286652

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.06
2 West_Med 22.28
3 Baltic 19.01
4 North_Atlantic 14.62
5 West_Asian 13.03
6 Red_Sea 4.27
7 Northeast_African 1.03
8 Siberian 0.36
9 East_Asian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.26
2 Central_Greek 9.08
3 Bulgarian 9.95
4 East_Sicilian 10.19
5 Italian_Abruzzo 11.8
6 West_Sicilian 12.24
7 Ashkenazi 12.27
8 Romanian 12.7
9 South_Italian 13.29
10 Tuscan 14.09
11 Serbian 16.86
12 Algerian_Jewish 17.87
13 North_Italian 17.91
14 Italian_Jewish 18.71
15 Sephardic_Jewish 18.97
16 Moldavian 21.39
17 Tunisian_Jewish 21.88
18 Libyan_Jewish 22.13
19 Cyprian 22.63
20 Turkish 23.97

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.5% Bulgarian + 28.5% Cyprian @ 4.62
2 83.1% Central_Greek + 16.9% Erzya @ 4.73
3 81% East_Sicilian + 19% Erzya @ 4.93
4 76.7% Bulgarian + 23.3% Samaritan @ 4.96
5 66.6% Bulgarian + 33.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 5
6 84.7% Central_Greek + 15.3% Lithuanian @ 5.01
7 81.8% Central_Greek + 18.2% Southwest_Russian @ 5.02
8 82.9% Central_Greek + 17.1% Estonian_Polish @ 5.03
9 83.3% Central_Greek + 16.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 5.04
10 95.9% Greek_Thessaly + 4.1% Kabardin @ 5.06
11 52.2% Cyprian + 47.8% Croatian @ 5.06
12 96.2% Greek_Thessaly + 3.8% Adygei @ 5.08
13 96.1% Greek_Thessaly + 3.9% Balkar @ 5.08
14 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Abhkasian @ 5.08
15 96.4% Greek_Thessaly + 3.6% North_Ossetian @ 5.08
16 82% Central_Greek + 18% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 5.08
17 51.5% Moldavian + 48.5% Cyprian @ 5.1
18 96.8% Greek_Thessaly + 3.2% Georgian @ 5.1
19 96% Greek_Thessaly + 4% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.1
20 80.7% Central_Greek + 19.3% Ukrainian @ 5.1

Kit Num: CC2286652
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.06
2 West_Med 22.28
3 Baltic 19.01
4 North_Atlantic 14.62
5 West_Asian 13.03
6 Red_Sea 4.27
7 Northeast_African 1.03


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 5.922265
2 Central_Greek @ 10.289817
3 Bulgarian @ 11.307978
4 East_Sicilian @ 11.539982
5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 13.410590
6 West_Sicilian @ 13.891223
7 Ashkenazi @ 14.047522
8 Romanian @ 14.516416
9 South_Italian @ 15.099088
10 Tuscan @ 16.127161
11 Serbian @ 19.318974
12 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.330965
13 North_Italian @ 20.597298
14 Italian_Jewish @ 21.385670
15 Sephardic_Jewish @ 21.576826
16 Moldavian @ 24.451012
17 Tunisian_Jewish @ 24.825899
18 Libyan_Jewish @ 24.964342
19 Cyprian @ 25.974539
20 Turkish @ 27.264814

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +50% Moldavian @ 5.643374


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Cyprian +25% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.115200


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.593829
2 Ashkenazi + Erzya + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.814654
3 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.922502
4 Ashkenazi + Assyrian + Erzya + Sardinian @ 3.982074
5 Ashkenazi + Estonian_Polish + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.002491
6 Erzya + Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.036243
7 Ashkenazi + Belorussian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.069313
8 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 4.083939
9 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.117380
10 Ashkenazi + Georgian_Jewish + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 4.153662
11 Ashkenazi + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.248354
12 Erzya + Greek_Thessaly + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.289258
13 Algerian_Jewish + Georgian_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.291332
14 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.293714
15 Central_Greek + Erzya + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.315039
16 Central_Greek + Kurdish_Jewish + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 4.319333
17 Assyrian + Erzya + Greek_Thessaly + Sardinian @ 4.337164
18 Greek_Thessaly + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 4.341557
19 Ashkenazi + Erzya + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.355459
20 Central_Greek + Erzya + Iranian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 4.392325

Done.

[Alexandra_K]

Hello again,
My FTDNA full mt sequence results are ready and I have some dozens of matches. Most of them are of Anglo-Saxon origin, some of North/Northwestern European origin (including 1-2 in Germany), also 2 from Italy. Except for those, I have a match with an individual from the Ukraine on the HVR1+2 levels (he hasn't tested any further), also a match at the HVR1 level with an individual from Kazakhstan (he too hasn't tested any further) and just at the HVR1 level too with someone from India (hasn't tested further either). Finally a couple of Native Americans but I will have to check again at which level we match.
Do you think that the above info can offer any clues as to the historical origin of my mtDNA haplogroup?
It seems to me (maybe I am thinking too simplistically though) that since it is a Northeast Asian haplogroup, the individuals from Italy and Northwestern Europe must have been the "next stations" in the spreading of the genetic ancestry since Greece is more to the east. (Except for the case of the Native American ancestry of course). Or at least due to further migrations to the west and/or various quasi simultaneous settlements in different places. I don't know well how to reason about relatedness via mtDNA so maybe I am thinking in the wrong way.
So is this a possible way to reason about it:
Given the history of our village and area, that it can indeed be due to an Avaro-slavic common ancestor connecting us to the cases of the Ukraine and even maybe Kazakhstan? Maybe I reason in the wrong way and/or maybe there is not yet enough evidence to think like this?
I would much appreciate your feedback!Thank you!

[Alexandra_K]

Now about my Native American matches that I checked in the meanwhile:
If I understand this correctly, I have in total matches with 9 (!) Native Americans (one of them being Cherokee, by oral tradition), of whom with 4 we match also at the coding region level (distances two and three). Wow! I wonder what this all could mean....

I would love to hear what you think!