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bol_nat
06-07-2018, 03:40 PM
AGHPAT, UTTAR PRADESH:
HIGHLIGHTS

Archaeologists have found chariots and tombs dating back to 2000 BC
Items found in burial pits indicate sophisticated craftsmanship
Discoveries during 3-month long excavation in a village in UP's Baghpat

Archaeologists have stumbled upon chariots and artifacts belonging to the Bronze Age, in Uttar Pradesh's Baghpat district. "We are now certain that when in 2000 BC, the Mesopotamians were using chariots, swords, and helmets during wars, we also had similar things," researchers at the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) said.

For the first time they believe, chariots which are around 4000 years old have been found.

After a three-month long trial excavation, which started in March, the chariots and other items including three coffins, swords, daggers, combs and ornaments have been unearthed said the ASI officials.

"It is shocking to find such antique from ancient civilization in this area. Many royal tombs have also been found during the excavation. Whatever has been found so far seems to be 4,000 years old, which is approximately 2000-1800 BC," ASI official Dr Manjul said. The chariots found in the burial pits remind one of the familiar images of horse-drawn carriages from mythological television shows said the excavators.

asi up chariots
For the first time whole chariot belonging to 2000 BC found by ASI

The relics suggest the existence of a two-wheeled open vehicle that may have been driven by one person. "The wheels rotated on a fixed axle linked by a draft pole to the yoke of a pair of animals. The axle was attached with a superstructure consisting of a platform protected by side-screens and a high dashboard," Dr Manjul told news agency PTI. The wheels and the pole were decorated with copper triangles, symbolic of the rays of the sun.

Dr Manjul described the excavation drive a "path-breaking" one not only because of whole the chariot that was found but also for the copper plated anthropomorphic figures, having horns and peepal-leafed crowns, which indicate a possibility of "royal burials".

While coffins have been discovered during past excavations in Harappa, Mohenjo-daro and Dholavira but never with copper decorations, said Dr Manjul adding that "for the first time in the entire sub-continent we have found this kind of coffin. The cover is highly decorated with eight anthropomorphic figures and the sides with floral motifs."

The discovery of swords, daggers, shields and a helmet confirms the existence of a warrior population, and the earthen and copper pots, semi-precious and steatite beads, combs, and a copper mirror from the burial pits point towards sophisticated craftsmanship and lifestyle.

Archeologists believe even though the Harappans are known to have migrated to the Yamuna region, the recent findings were "completely different" from the ancient civilisation.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/in-uttar-pradesh-4000-year-old-chariots-and-coffins-found-1863677

Kulin
06-07-2018, 03:52 PM
This sets another narrative on the Indo-Aryan migrations, meaning if they have been in UP by 2000 BC, it means they had arrived in the Punjab/Gandhara a couple centuries earlier.

Kulin
06-07-2018, 03:56 PM
Btw, archaeological Survey of India or ASI is an interesting name. :lol:

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 04:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZOQKNqu0NE&t=9s

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 04:22 PM
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_zaDAZfDUFQ/WxeGvPfXTAI/AAAAAAABTWA/zSGTIyndEJgdvfpQGaxuQciNgKvfVFJGQCLcBGAs/s1600/chariota1.JPG


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/img/64473537/Master.jpg


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/img/64472458/Master.jpg


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/img/64472472/Master.jpg

purohit
06-07-2018, 04:33 PM
In video they say 5000year old.

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 04:33 PM
Are they Aryans? , Scythians? This is the first in south asia I think. Could this also explain the Higher NE Euro component in Western Uttar Pradesh/Haryana area?

Did you take DNA test to find this out?

surbakhunWeesste
06-07-2018, 06:00 PM
Translation/Gist... posted video:
Now for an important news. They have found ~5000 years old royal burial in the Bhagpat village ,Sanoli. The Indian Archaeological departments has declared it as an important discovery that is ought to change many historical importance.
Lol tedious
The village is about 7km away from Delhi, they have excavated 127 coffins with other stuff, the catch for the Indian archaeological department is that they excavated what looks like a royal tomb( The guy wearing a mustard shirt is showing the structure of the chariot: copper made). The found two chariots along with copper sword near the royal coffin and hats. At 1:30, The guy mentions that the coffin is made of wood and has humanoid depiction with horns and pipal leaf like crown....on the lid of the coffin. The body inside the coffin was laid east to west, and the king has his family's coffins along side his!(they were cremated or buried).
2:19, The two royal chariots are adorned with copper works, hence around ~5000 years ago our culture was as at par along side others culture!
They found gold jewelries like a finger ring, adorned comb with peacock(the lady shows later)..shows advances!

The bagpat village has around 2 dozens such places from even Harappan era............

edit:twas 5000not 50,000

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 07:14 PM
edit: double post
edit: double post

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 07:15 PM
In video they say 5000year old.

Sanoli IVC site was discovered in 2005, dated 1800-2200BC. Its located about 100km east of Rakhigarhi. But now they have found chariots. These skeletons could be of indo-aryan nomads who settled there later on.

parasar
06-07-2018, 07:42 PM
Translation/Gist... posted video:
Now for an important news. They have found ~5000 years old royal burial in the Bhagpat village ,Sanoli. The Indian Archaeological departments has declared it as an important discovery that is ought to change many historical importance.
Lol tedious
The village is about 7km away from Delhi, they have excavated 127 coffins with other stuff, the catch for the Indian archaeological department is that they excavated what looks like a royal tomb( The guy wearing a mustard shirt is showing the structure of the chariot: copper made). The found two chariots along with copper sword near the royal coffin and hats. At 1:30, The guy mentions that the coffin is made of wood and has humanoid depiction with horns and pipal leaf like crown....on the lid of the coffin. The body inside the coffin was laid east to west, and the king has his family's coffins along side his!(they were cremated or buried).
2:19, The two royal chariots are adorned with copper works, hence around ~5000 years ago our culture was as at par along side others culture!
They found gold jewelries like a finger ring, adorned comb with peacock(the lady shows later)..shows advances!

The bagpat village has around 2 dozens such places from even Harappan era............

edit:twas 5000not 50,000

Interesting.
That is the solar position of the Ganga plains. The angles slightly change with the season of the burial but for the most part they follow the east west surya pattern.
Harappan and late Harappan is more often north-south chandrai pattern.
The site looks like some kind of an hybrid Copper Hoard and Harappa.

pegasus
06-07-2018, 08:14 PM
Sanoli IVC site was discovered in 2005, dated 1800-2200BC. Its located about 100km east of Rakhigarhi. But now they have found chariots. These skeletons could be of indo-aryan nomads who settled there later on.

They are not Sintashta style chariots, they are Mesopotamian/Sumerian style chariots, that photo you posted now with the 4 wooden wheels made it even more clear. Though the most important thing is getting these remains to Reich lab ASAP before the Monsoon season arrives.

parasar
06-07-2018, 08:14 PM
...
The discovery of swords, daggers, shields and a helmet confirms the existence of a warrior population ...
Archeologists believe even though the Harappans are known to have migrated to the Yamuna region, the recent findings were "completely different" from the ancient civilisation.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/in-uttar-pradesh-4000-year-old-chariots-and-coffins-found-1863677

Different from Rakhigarhi and quite different from Swat valley proto-historic Iron Age.

“What we can understand from the graves is that they were a very powerful civilisation. They were socially well organised and apparently very peaceful because no weapons were found from the site, unlike most civilisations,"
https://tribune.com.pk/story/466048/a-lost-civilisation-3000-year-old-cemetery-discovered-in-swat/
"a female-centred pattern: women were buried in megalithic graves,thereby alluding to their leading role in the household, while the remains of a male relative
Figure 7. Grave 6 at Udegram (photograph by R. Micheli). (?) played an important but secondary role as an ‘accessory’"
"Secondary, sometimes defleshed, burials of males often followed the primary interment of an adult female"

poi
06-07-2018, 08:22 PM
Btw, archaeological Survey of India or ASI is an interesting name. :lol:

Forget ASI, it is now AASI lol I'm becoming a hermit if they add another A.

poi
06-07-2018, 08:49 PM
They are not Sintashta style chariots, they are Mesopotamian/Sumerian style chariots, that photo you posted now with the 4 wooden wheels made it even more clear. Though the most important thing is getting these remains to Reich lab ASAP before the Monsoon season arrives.

Not to derail this thread with offtopic, but what kind of chariots were in the movie Bahubali? This is a badass scene, probably sequence copied from a hollywood's marvel movie lol, but badass none the less.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_1uTPdP7k

Kulin
06-07-2018, 08:54 PM
Not to derail this thread with offtopic, but what kind of chariots were in the movie Bahubali? This is a badass scene, probably sequence copied from a hollywood's marvel movie lol, but badass none the less.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_1uTPdP7k


Lol that was some retro-futuristic vehicle with spinning blades. :lol:

poi
06-07-2018, 08:56 PM
Lol that was some retro-futuristic vehicle with spinning blades. :lol:

Don't tell me it is from the Information Age :D

parasar
06-07-2018, 09:04 PM
Not to derail this thread with offtopic, but what kind of chariots were in the movie Bahubali? ...

CG enhanced Ajatasattu type? :\
rathamusala
https://books.google.com/books?id=Wk4_ICH_g1EC&pg=PA114

bol_nat
06-07-2018, 09:08 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/De20o9XVMAASziI.jpg:large

pegasus
06-08-2018, 12:03 PM
Not to derail this thread with offtopic, but what kind of chariots were in the movie Bahubali? This is a badass scene, probably sequence copied from a hollywood's marvel movie lol, but badass none the less.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF_1uTPdP7k

Those look like Roman inspired chariots a la Benhur, which in turn were influenced by Etruscan ones but there is a lot of added fantasy and futuristic elements, no functioning chariot irl would look like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frE9rXnaHpE

redifflal
06-08-2018, 12:25 PM
You could use a gearing mechanism to convert the spin of the shaft of the wheels into the spin of the blades using gears at 90 degrees. Still be mechanically powered by the bulls or horses driving the chariot. I didn't think that design was necessarily futuristic.

akash
07-23-2020, 11:44 PM
any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?

tipirneni
07-24-2020, 12:16 AM
any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?

The information on the dig I don't see it in published

Following paper says swords came in later 2000BC which probably indicates people were peaceful traders unlike ancient ME

Rigveda and Atharvaveda Shaunaka Samhitas have been carefully analyzed to check whether they
mention copper or bronze swords. It has turned out that both texts do not know swords (only knives) and
therefore must be dated in their habitats in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent prior to the introduction
of such weapons into the region. Swords have been archaeologically evidenced both in the Indus valley and
in the Yamuna–Ganges Doab only after 2000 BC. This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).
Then all available data on copper and bronze swords of different types (straight double-edged,
machete-cleaver, sickle-shaped, ‗rapier‘, ‗harpoon‘) originating from the Old World and dating back to 3500–
2000 BC have been collected and scrutinized.
Based on this analysis the following regions are to be excluded from the list of possible Indo-Aryan
homelands prior to 2000 BC because they already had copper or bronze swords: North-Western Caucasus,
Kuban region — in 3500–3300 BC; (South-)East Anatolia – in 3400–2900 BC; Palestine/ Israel/ Canaan — in
3200–2750 BC, 2400–2000 BC; Central Anatolia – in 2750–2250 BC; Elam — in 2500–2000 BC; Cyclades
— in 2500–2100 BC; Mesopotamia, Sumer – in 2400–2000 BC; Mesopotamia, Akkad — in 2350–2200 BC;
Northern Anatolia – in 2300–2000 BC; Bactria–Margiana — in 2300–2000 BC; Transcaucasia — in 2200–
2000 BC.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/58396622/Semenenko_Sword_in_RV__AVSh_and_in_the_Old_World.p df?1550068919=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DSemenenko_Aleksan dr_Andreyevich._The_abs.pdf&Expires=1595553147&Signature=NTI1bRAHoc8P-x-wfBXK6HmEHicORz3g3RmwtxHWtkj8LGVlIkxBqYcEI4FJuV~Rw ~HAteDCdweCp3Vk873XYP4EXd2xMgdgZAx3l9oQMXHQpjZ-PiXb-zGKLNIkeLxlX4fYqg-zxdFeCYf5CV03-In5hbBGX1CDeUx0rKGUzkEW0KZckxgvsdkNHKWxBLFVx5coHr-KT~b5OeSrSkXtQ89vPeYKicJU0nphI6YJ3gEQj2hnEl1uBVyMZ 7SvM8GZHuElrtjGvG6JaZj6IAk5ksyB7yAH8IhSBwp4b4ga6V1 ~aLD6MKGiztBWZLT6eumb0uZViSNX5IzoR5XQgbf3Bg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

pegasus
07-24-2020, 03:37 AM
The information on the dig I don't see it in published

Following paper says swords came in later 2000BC which probably indicates people were peaceful traders unlike ancient ME

Rigveda and Atharvaveda Shaunaka Samhitas have been carefully analyzed to check whether they
mention copper or bronze swords. It has turned out that both texts do not know swords (only knives) and
therefore must be dated in their habitats in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent prior to the introduction
of such weapons into the region. Swords have been archaeologically evidenced both in the Indus valley and
in the Yamuna–Ganges Doab only after 2000 BC. This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).
Then all available data on copper and bronze swords of different types (straight double-edged,
machete-cleaver, sickle-shaped, ‗rapier‘, ‗harpoon‘) originating from the Old World and dating back to 3500–
2000 BC have been collected and scrutinized.
Based on this analysis the following regions are to be excluded from the list of possible Indo-Aryan
homelands prior to 2000 BC because they already had copper or bronze swords: North-Western Caucasus,
Kuban region — in 3500–3300 BC; (South-)East Anatolia – in 3400–2900 BC; Palestine/ Israel/ Canaan — in
3200–2750 BC, 2400–2000 BC; Central Anatolia – in 2750–2250 BC; Elam — in 2500–2000 BC; Cyclades
— in 2500–2100 BC; Mesopotamia, Sumer – in 2400–2000 BC; Mesopotamia, Akkad — in 2350–2200 BC;
Northern Anatolia – in 2300–2000 BC; Bactria–Margiana — in 2300–2000 BC; Transcaucasia — in 2200–
2000 BC.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/58396622/Semenenko_Sword_in_RV__AVSh_and_in_the_Old_World.p df?1550068919=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DSemenenko_Aleksan dr_Andreyevich._The_abs.pdf&Expires=1595553147&Signature=NTI1bRAHoc8P-x-wfBXK6HmEHicORz3g3RmwtxHWtkj8LGVlIkxBqYcEI4FJuV~Rw ~HAteDCdweCp3Vk873XYP4EXd2xMgdgZAx3l9oQMXHQpjZ-PiXb-zGKLNIkeLxlX4fYqg-zxdFeCYf5CV03-In5hbBGX1CDeUx0rKGUzkEW0KZckxgvsdkNHKWxBLFVx5coHr-KT~b5OeSrSkXtQ89vPeYKicJU0nphI6YJ3gEQj2hnEl1uBVyMZ 7SvM8GZHuElrtjGvG6JaZj6IAk5ksyB7yAH8IhSBwp4b4ga6V1 ~aLD6MKGiztBWZLT6eumb0uZViSNX5IzoR5XQgbf3Bg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

That article is hinged on false positives. A 2600 BC date for the Rig Veda!!?? How is that even possible given their Fatayanovo-Abashevo ancestors were still hanging out in Western Russia, that eliminates any remote chance of that occurring.

This facts make us date Atharvaveda Shaunaka prior to
2000 BC, and more archaic Rigveda — a few centuries earlier (prior to 2600 BC).

Those Sannauli chariots are not spoke wheeled they clearly look like updated and refined versions of Mesopotamian chariots , its almost a millennia before PGW is in full sway in this region, and by that time PGW Indo Aryans were pretty much cavalry riders. Scythed chariots make sort of a come back in the Classical Age but even then cavalry was the dominant choice of warfare.

The appearance of antennae swords after 2000 BC is because , Steppe Indo Iranians are moving into Central Asia proper, and access to the Zerafshan mines allowed for more increased metallurgy, and after antennae swords spread all over via trade. That paper you linked suggests its via the Copper Hoard. Which is blatantly incorrect.

A double-edged sword 52 cm long with shoulders and a tang with a short ‗antenna‘ at the end was
found in Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) (Figure 37). This weapon belongs typically to the blades of the
Copper Hoards or Ochre Coloured Potter culture and can be dated circa 2000 BC or later.

DMXX
07-24-2020, 04:02 AM
It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece (https://www.greekboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Chariot-Racing-720x400.jpg)). You can only stand with chariots.

Four-wheeled, heavier carriages driven by other animals (f.ex. oxen, potentially Caspian horses in agricultural EBA northern Iran) are best described as wagons (or carriages in the case of horses). You can either stand or sit with these wagons. Quite a few reliefs from the Near-East show horses pulling wagons (plus chariots) from the BA onwards.

This has already been elaborated upon in clear detail by the experts (f.ex. Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language). There simply hasn't been a finding thus far outside of the Eurasian steppes of a two-wheeled, lightweight, standing-only, spoke-wheeled chariot that's older than Sintashta.

Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.

I wouldn't take the reporter's comments as gospel either, for that matter - Even native English speakers don't always recognise the difference between chariots, wagons and carriages.

deuterium_1
07-24-2020, 08:47 AM
It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece (https://www.greekboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Chariot-Racing-720x400.jpg)). You can only stand with chariots.

Four-wheeled, heavier carriages driven by other animals (f.ex. oxen, potentially Caspian horses in agricultural EBA northern Iran) are best described as wagons (or carriages in the case of horses). You can either stand or sit with these wagons. Quite a few reliefs from the Near-East show horses pulling wagons (plus chariots) from the BA onwards.

This has already been elaborated upon in clear detail by the experts (f.ex. Anthony, The Horse, The Wheel and Language). There simply hasn't been a finding thus far outside of the Eurasian steppes of a two-wheeled, lightweight, standing-only, spoke-wheeled chariot that's older than Sintashta.

Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.

I wouldn't take the reporter's comments as gospel either, for that matter - Even native English speakers don't always recognise the difference between chariots, wagons and carriages.

Weren't horse drawn wagons, a Yamnaya innnovation?

DMXX
07-24-2020, 09:10 AM
Weren't horse drawn wagons, a Yamnaya innnovation?

Yes. Although wagons led by animals weren't a Yamnaya innovation. IIRC the Sumerians were using those in the 3rd millennium BC. The oldest wheel we currently have dates to a couple hundred years before that in CE Europe. I cannot remember the exact chronology of that particular invention.

Per Anthony, horses and (?)tin were mass-imported into the Near-Eastern city-states and empires during the BA period. We then see the appearance of the quintessentially steppe chariot in the LBA-IA onwards.

CopperAxe
07-24-2020, 09:24 AM
any further news on this? Did these Chariots belong to Indo Aryans?

Not chariots and probably not owned by Indo-Aryans.

They did some C14 dating and it came back to 1900-1800 bc or something. So it doen't predate the chariots found in the Sintashta-Petrovka cultural zone.

The designs are quite different from actual chariots and unlike in the steppes, were we see actual chariots buried with horses, this wagon was not buried with any horses and easily could've been pulled by another draft animal. Two-wheeled wagons pulled by oxen were common place in the Indus Valley civilization. It could've also been pulled by donkeys or onagers, but like David W. Anthony suggested actually using onagers like you'd use horses in combat seems almost impossible because onagers are nasty buggers and if so it was more ritualistic than anything.

But people trade and during this timeframe you'd like have the first horse trade between central Asia and the Near East, so who knows? Perhaps it was pulled by horses. However we have no evidence for it, nor for horses being used in this period and this burial cannot be linked to Indo-European traditions because chariot burials should be accompanied by horses.

Unrelated, but this is a pretty cool paper about Iron age in South Asia, and it includes an analysis of metallurgical terms used in the Rigveda, which could be a good way to gauge when various books were composed: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332103484_Iron_Age_in_IRON_AGE_IN_SOUTH_ASIA

deuterium_1
07-24-2020, 11:12 AM
Yes. Although wagons led by animals weren't a Yamnaya innovation. IIRC the Sumerians were using those in the 3rd millennium BC. The oldest wheel we currently have dates to a couple hundred years before that in CE Europe. I cannot remember the exact chronology of that particular invention.

Per Anthony, horses and (?)tin were mass-imported into the Near-Eastern city-states and empires during the BA period. We then see the appearance of the quintessentially steppe chariot in the LBA-IA onwards.

Horse drawn wagons gave the Yamnaya an edge over their neighbours.

This is worth watching:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngmsHRXD7gI

parasar
07-24-2020, 06:49 PM
It's hard to make out in the video and images, but this doesn't look like an actual chariot (which, by definition, is a two-wheeled, lightweight mobility platform driven by a horse usually; the two horse arrangement is widely seen in ancient times).

As pegasus rightly states, the most widely-accepted oldest discovery of a chariot was in Sintashta (IIRC 2100 B.C. is the oldest radiocarbon dating for it). These ones had spoke wheels, which were found in artistically recorded chariots in multiple other cultures later on (f.ex. ancient Greece (https://www.greekboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Chariot-Racing-720x400.jpg)). You can only stand with chariots.
...
Odds are, this was some sort of wagon (be it war or agricultural) with ancillary bronze items. We need a clearer view of this thing's wheels and overall structure to determine if it's a chariot or not.
...


The Sinauli one does look like a two wheeled chariot, but with solid wheels per the Manjul representation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9i0ln1WkAIdxwN.jpg

tipirneni
07-24-2020, 09:32 PM
The Sinauli one does look like a two wheeled chariot, but with solid wheels per the Manjul representation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9i0ln1WkAIdxwN.jpg

Sumerian chariots seem to have full wheels unlike spoked wheels in other places

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/a6/20/51a6209987ffae19b4e0b106c06e1f3d.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/35/d6/c835d6dc7df3627b18c40c671d3a6a22.jpg
Sumerian chariot of King Eannatum of Lagash, c. 2500 B.C.



https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/scale-model-of-a-simple-chariot-with-two-solid-wooden-wheels-the-picture-id90760484
Primitive chariot, probably c 2000 BC.
UNSPECIFIED - APRIL 18: Scale model of a simple chariot with two solid wooden wheels. The two-wheeled chariot was invented by the Sumerians in Mesopotamia probably some time between 3500 and 3000 BC. They were used as a means of transport, but would also be developed for use in war. The earliest chariots had solid wheels such as the ones on this model. The Hyksos, a people from Palestine, developed chariots with spoked wheels, which enabled superior speeds to be achieved. They used their chariots to deadly military effect when they invaded Egypt in around 1700 BC. The Egyptians further improved their design to develop fast, strong, lightweight chariots which formed an elite part of their army. (Photo by SSPL/Getty Images)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/cd/e0/accde03bf8aa122d2fa5571226372e95.jpg


This probably shows the Egyptian, Mittani and later Assryian chariots were newer spoked wheel lighter design. The Sanauli chariot looks like an earlier Sumerian/Akkad design probably came from there.
https://d3q6qq2zt8nhwv.cloudfront.net/course/0faecb1e7776454fa68ba41ac2dec9d6.jpg

CopperAxe
07-24-2020, 11:17 PM
Horse drawn wagons gave the Yamnaya an edge over their neighbours.

This is worth watching:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngmsHRXD7gI

I think most wagons were pulled by oxen, as they were quite heavy. Western Steppe herders rode their horses. There is this pervasive myth that their horses were too small to ride so they had to use wagons or chariots but that is not true.

CopperAxe
07-24-2020, 11:22 PM
Sumerian chariots seem to have full wheels unlike spoked wheels in other places

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/51/a6/20/51a6209987ffae19b4e0b106c06e1f3d.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/35/d6/c835d6dc7df3627b18c40c671d3a6a22.jpg
Sumerian chariot of King Eannatum of Lagash, c. 2500 B.C.



https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/scale-model-of-a-simple-chariot-with-two-solid-wooden-wheels-the-picture-id90760484
Primitive chariot, probably c 2000 BC.
UNSPECIFIED - APRIL 18: Scale model of a simple chariot with two solid wooden wheels. The two-wheeled chariot was invented by the Sumerians in Mesopotamia probably some time between 3500 and 3000 BC. They were used as a means of transport, but would also be developed for use in war. The earliest chariots had solid wheels such as the ones on this model. The Hyksos, a people from Palestine, developed chariots with spoked wheels, which enabled superior speeds to be achieved. They used their chariots to deadly military effect when they invaded Egypt in around 1700 BC. The Egyptians further improved their design to develop fast, strong, lightweight chariots which formed an elite part of their army. (Photo by SSPL/Getty Images)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/cd/e0/accde03bf8aa122d2fa5571226372e95.jpg


This probably shows the Egyptian, Mittani and later Assryian chariots were newer spoked wheel lighter design. The Sanauli chariot looks like an earlier Sumerian/Akkad design probably came from there.
https://d3q6qq2zt8nhwv.cloudfront.net/course/0faecb1e7776454fa68ba41ac2dec9d6.jpg

What you are calling chariots are wagons. Indus Valley civilization had two-wheeled wagons, some similar in shape to those found at Sinauli (Sanauli?). Those wagons were likely pulled by oxen.

This is a chariot.

38690

tipirneni
07-25-2020, 12:57 AM
What you are calling chariots are wagons. Indus Valley civilization had two-wheeled wagons, some similar in shape to those found at Sinauli (Sanauli?). Those wagons were likely pulled by oxen.

This is a chariot.

38690

According to a theory the Chariot evolved from wagon like wheels to become more bigger spoken wheel during Egypt/Hurrian/Mittani era and then spread. The earlier Sumerian/Akkad were wooden wheel which had limited mobility while maneuvering curves etc..
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/cd/e0/accde03bf8aa122d2fa5571226372e95.jpg

parasar
07-25-2020, 01:19 AM
What you are calling chariots are wagons. Indus Valley civilization had two-wheeled wagons, some similar in shape to those found at Sinauli (Sanauli?). Those wagons were likely pulled by oxen.

This is a chariot.
...

Why? Two wheel, spoked wheel, horse driven, etc. are just innovations.
"A chariot is a type of carriage driven by a charioteer, usually using horses[a] to provide rapid motive power. Chariots were used by armies as transport or mobile archery platforms, for hunting or for racing, and as a conveniently fast way to travel for many ancient people."

"Chariot, open, two- or four-wheeled vehicle of antiquity, probably first used in royal funeral processions and later employed in warfare, racing, and hunting."
https://www.britannica.com/technology/chariot

akash
07-25-2020, 01:58 AM
question, was the city of Kashi/Varanasi around during this?

Kulin
07-25-2020, 03:14 AM
question, was the city of Kashi/Varanasi around during this?

Aside from fringes of the IVC in western UP, the whole of the Gangetic plains (UP/Bihar/Bengal) was largely forested, with sparse settlements of Austro-asiatic tribes (and sino-tibetan tribes in the border regions). The Indo-Aryan immigrants (modern inhabitants of those regions derive 60-90% of their ancestry from them) cleared the dense jungle and settled around the early Iron Age period, gradually pusing eastwards up till Bengal-Assam. Urbanization also took place in this period, and Kashi is a product of this urbanization. So, no it wasn't around this time.

akash
07-25-2020, 04:00 AM
Aside from fringes of the IVC in western UP, the whole of the Gangetic plains (UP/Bihar/Bengal) was largely forested, with sparse settlements of Austro-asiatic tribes (and sino-tibetan tribes in the border regions). The Indo-Aryan immigrants (modern inhabitants of those regions derive 60-90% of their ancestry from them) cleared the dense jungle and settled around the early Iron Age period, gradually pusing eastwards up till Bengal-Assam. Urbanization also took place in this period, and Kashi is a product of this urbanization. So, no it wasn't around this time.

Austro Asiatic, you mean Munda? Im assuming ASI must have been there too

discreetmaverick
07-25-2020, 06:17 AM
Aside from fringes of the IVC in western UP, the whole of the Gangetic plains (UP/Bihar/Bengal) was largely forested, with sparse settlements of Austro-asiatic tribes (and sino-tibetan tribes in the border regions). The Indo-Aryan immigrants (modern inhabitants of those regions derive 60-90% of their ancestry from them) cleared the dense jungle and settled around the early Iron Age period, gradually pusing eastwards up till Bengal-Assam. Urbanization also took place in this period, and Kashi is a product of this urbanization. So, no it wasn't around this time.

Correct me if I am wrong, what you are saying there was no Dravidian movement into the Gangetic plains, like in South India. Indo Aryan replaced Austro-Asiatic languages.


Malto /ˈmæltoʊ/[3] or Paharia /pəˈhɑːriə/[4] or, rarely, archaically, Rajmahali[5] is a Northern Dravidian language spoken primarily in East India.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malto_language

How did Malto reach Bihar and Bengal? through central India?

akash
07-25-2020, 02:00 PM
dravdian languages did exist in Odisha, which is pretty close to UP, thats why I said ASI population must have been there too along side Munda type

Kulin
07-25-2020, 03:20 PM
Austro Asiatic, you mean Munda? Im assuming ASI must have been there too

Yes, Munda. There was no pure AASI in the Iron Age.


Correct me if I am wrong, what you are saying there was no Dravidian movement into the Gangetic plains, like in South India. Indo Aryan replaced Austro-Asiatic languages.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malto_language

How did Malto reach Bihar and Bengal? through central India?

The Kurukh-Malto have a tradition of recent migration from around the Deccan, but I'd posit that they lived in the hills of Odisha bordering the Deccan. Their exonym given by the neighbouring Munda people(s) is 'Oraon', meaning 'to roam'. Also modern distribution of Kurukh-Malto is more North-eastern than even two hundred years ago. These people moved to Bengal proper during British rule from the region's vicinity. This is also true for certain Austro-Asiatic groups like Santhals who did not have a presence in the plains until 300 years ago. The British primarily encouraged migration of aboriginal tribes for work in tea gardens and other farms that locals were not accustomed to.

discreetmaverick
07-26-2020, 05:50 AM
Yes, Munda. There was no pure AASI in the Iron Age.



The Kurukh-Malto have a tradition of recent migration from around the Deccan, but I'd posit that they lived in the hills of Odisha bordering the Deccan. Their exonym given by the neighbouring Munda people(s) is 'Oraon', meaning 'to roam'. Also modern distribution of Kurukh-Malto is more North-eastern than even two hundred years ago. These people moved to Bengal proper during British rule from the region's vicinity. This is also true for certain Austro-Asiatic groups like Santhals who did not have a presence in the plains until 300 years ago. The British primarily encouraged migration of aboriginal tribes for work in tea gardens and other farms that locals were not accustomed to.

If we consider movement of Dravidians from (North)West to (South)/East, that would likely make Brahui, as the oldest language of the group and Kurukh - Malto among the youngest. How are both classified under North Dravidian languages?


Some authors deny that North Dravidian forms a valid subgroup, splitting it into Northeast (Kurukh–Malto) and Northwest (Brahui).[31]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages#Northern_Dravidian_pockets

Even if some others deny and classify as Northeast and Northwest, it is still likley they more close to one another than to nieghbouring centrel dravidians. or there more to these classifications.

CopperAxe
07-26-2020, 07:51 AM
According to a theory the Chariot evolved from wagon like wheels to become more bigger spoken wheel during Egypt/Hurrian/Mittani era and then spread. The earlier Sumerian/Akkad were wooden wheel which had limited mobility while maneuvering curves etc..
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/cd/e0/accde03bf8aa122d2fa5571226372e95.jpg

Chariots quite clearly developed on the steppes in the Potapovka-Sintashta cultural zone. Two wheeled, horse drawn wagons you can only stand on with spoked wheels are what I call a chariot.

akash
07-26-2020, 02:51 PM
Chariots quite clearly developed on the steppes in the Potapovka-Sintashta cultural zone. Two wheeled, horse drawn wagons you can only stand on with spoked wheels are what I call a chariot.

I thought Ancient Egyptians also had chariots? during Moses time

Alain
07-26-2020, 06:31 PM
I thought Ancient Egyptians also had chariots? during Moses time

The chariot came to Egypt through the Hyksos around 1250 BC.And the Hyksos were in contact with the Hittites and they know from Mitanni

Alain
07-26-2020, 06:55 PM
But I also have to add that the origin of the chariot is the Sintashta culture and was mediated by Central Asia through the migration of Mitanni in the Near East and at the end of the Bronze Age became an outdated model of military history and only in the Iron Age among the Persians and the Celts in Britain use came.

Alain
07-26-2020, 07:04 PM
Sorry and almost forgotten, the chariot came to use an example of King Poros in India

Kulin
07-28-2020, 01:47 AM
If we consider movement of Dravidians from (North)West to (South)/East, that would likely make Brahui, as the oldest language of the group and Kurukh - Malto among the youngest. How are both classified under North Dravidian languages?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages#Northern_Dravidian_pockets

Even if some others deny and classify as Northeast and Northwest, it is still likley they more close to one another than to nieghbouring centrel dravidians. or there more to these classifications.

I have read that the grouping is seen as controversial. There were even some proposals that Brahui represents an extinct independent branch of Dravidian (which is very likely IMO). After the Narasimhan paper, the theory is that the development of Indo-Aryan and (South Indian) Dravidian languages took hold in a similar time period (likely a few centuries apart) from the IVC due to migrations. Even though the Brahui have some oral history of migration, genetics is showing that they're likely native to the area. I think a current North Dravidian cluster is more based on geography rather than phylogeny. Research on Dravidian languages outside of the major ones are poor. Apparently there is some kurukh-malto substrate in Konkani/Marathi, and they're hypothesized to migrate from there. The distance looks a bit too unlikely for me though, but I don't have any knowledge of the kurukh-malto languages themselves.

deuterium_1
07-28-2020, 05:48 PM
I have read that the grouping is seen as controversial. There were even some proposals that Brahui represents an extinct independent branch of Dravidian (which is very likely IMO). After the Narasimhan paper, the theory is that the development of Indo-Aryan and (South Indian) Dravidian languages took hold in a similar time period (likely a few centuries apart) from the IVC due to migrations. Even though the Brahui have some oral history of migration, genetics is showing that they're likely native to the area. I think a current North Dravidian cluster is more based on geography rather than phylogeny. Research on Dravidian languages outside of the major ones are poor. Apparently there is some kurukh-malto substrate in Konkani/Marathi, and they're hypothesized to migrate from there. The distance looks a bit too unlikely for me though, but I don't have any knowledge of the kurukh-malto languages themselves.

What about links between the Brahui and the IVC?

parasar
08-02-2020, 04:45 AM
What about links between the Brahui and the IVC?

If Brahui had links to the IVC then it would have interacted with Indo-Iranian, Vedic, Gathic, Old Persian, Pali etc., and thus shown some remnants of those interactions.
But its interaction seems to be only with relatively modern Indic - Jatki, Sindhi, etc. and with (theoretically W. Iranian) Balochi.