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afbarwaaqo
06-07-2018, 09:35 PM
I know itís in the nile regions but where exactly did they originate from? Anybody got a specific location? Was it the sudd marshes?

Angoliga
06-07-2018, 11:43 PM
Good question, I'd also like to know.

Relating to the genetic component ("Nilo-Saharan" also known as "Ancient East African"/"Nilotic"), until there's more ancient remains it'll be hard to pinpoint an exact origin but in and around Southern-Sudan prior to the neolithic seems to be the general consensus.

The current spread of the language group within Northern and Central-Western Africa (Sahara/Sahel) is likely most due to ancient geological events of the Holocene Wet Phase or "Wet Sahara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Subpluvial)" period (7500–7000 BCE to about 3500–3000 BCE). Linguists like Christopher Ehret state the distribution of NS language groups "may reflect ancient water courses in a green Sahara during the Neolithic Subpluvial".


Based on the principle of least moves/diversity, linguists generally argue for the language group originating by either bordering-regions of Sudan/Ethiopia or Sudan/Chad:


https://i.imgur.com/2nkaama.jpg

afbarwaaqo
06-09-2018, 09:46 PM
I wish there were more deeper studies on the nilotics, I heard theyíre the second oldest SSA people

beyoku
06-11-2018, 12:41 PM
I would argue an area North/South from Egypto-Sudanese Nubia....and East/West from the Nile to South Western Libya. Some of the early remains I would associate the language family with are Those at Jebal Sahaba and also cultures like the Qadan. Southern Sudan IMO is too far south for Origin as some of the populations there are know to have come from the North. NOT accounting for physical remains I would argue the Central Sahara.

There is a good video in this publication (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277379114002728).

Sikeliot
06-11-2018, 10:50 PM
I am wondering the very same. Or rather, my question is this.. are they most closely related to Bantus? West African non-Bantu people? Isolated groups like the Hadza and Khoisan?

My belief is that they are indigenous to East Africa and developed alongside/parallel to the ancestors of Bantus and West Africans but are neither directly descended from them nor ancestral to them.

Angoliga
06-12-2018, 05:10 AM
I would argue an area North/South from Egypto-Sudanese Nubia....and East/West from the Nile to South Western Libya.

Interesting, that's not too far from Maju's hypothesized centroid for my maternal hg (L3x2b (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11430-L3x2b-Lack-of-detection-due-to-armed-conflicts)):


https://i.imgur.com/3xWXzhl.png

Judging by the mutations, the detected Palestinian and Algerian are very anciently related; one coalescence estimate (http://mtdna.gentis.ru/hg/ages.htm) for the subclade is 26744.0000 +/- 6686.0000 ybp



...I will try to explain how would I estimate the origing of L3x2b using your map: I calculate the centroid for the four points, which falls in Libya. However I usually also consider the overall estimated origin of the upstream lineage (would be L3x2 or L3x) and these seem rather easterly or north-easterly within Africa, probably in Sudan or Ethiopia. So I "correct" the centroid towards that origin, usually by 1/3. It's all very "good hunch". That places the approx. origin in NW Sudan maybe, in Nubia (either at the Nile or at one of the nearby oases such as Kharga).

blog post here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/01/out-of-africa-migration-was-coincident.html)



Southern Sudan IMO is too far south for Origin as some of the populations there are know to have come from the North. NOT accounting for physical remains I would argue the Central Sahara.

Since nilotes are considered to have the darkest complexions on earth, I would suppose a region of higher daily UV exposure would make more sense? I GET this hasn't been the sole determinant for natural selection regarding skin tone, correct me if I'm wrong, other factors in human history have been different types of food consumption along with latitude, avg. temperatures, altitude etc... but as hypothetical regional urheimat for nilotes (w/o ancient remains), if I were to bet on the equatorial S.Sudan/the Sudd versus a further northern Tropical zone closer to the southern-sahara, the latter might make a lot more sense

beyoku
06-12-2018, 03:23 PM
Interesting, that's not too far from Maju's hypothesized centroid for my maternal hg (L3x2b (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11430-L3x2b-Lack-of-detection-due-to-armed-conflicts)):


https://i.imgur.com/3xWXzhl.png

Judging by the mutations, the detected Palestinian and Algerian are very anciently related; one coalescence estimate (http://mtdna.gentis.ru/hg/ages.htm) for the subclade is 26744.0000 +/- 6686.0000 ybp






Since nilotes are considered to have the darkest complexions on earth, I would suppose a region of higher daily UV exposure would make more sense? I GET this hasn't been the sole determinant for natural selection regarding skin tone, correct me if I'm wrong, other factors in human history have been different types of food consumption along with latitude, avg. temperatures, altitude etc... but as hypothetical regional urheimat for nilotes (w/o ancient remains), if I were to bet on the equatorial S.Sudan/the Sudd versus a further northern Tropical zone closer to the southern-sahara, the latter might make a lot more sense

Here is a central Saharan UV Hotspot I find commonly produced in many maps.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark_Jacobson2/publication/242537047/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Modeled-map-of-the-yearly-averaged-downward-surface-solar-radiation-reaching-the-surface.png

This green Saharan study also come in mind (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5809971/) but these idiot are speaking on A-M13 and B-M60 with no Sudanese Samples. I think that NS are going to have some types of Ancestry that will bridge the gap between what we think of SSA Substructure. Unfortunately there are not a lot of physical remains outside of Egypt/Sudan to be studied.

NetNomad
06-22-2018, 03:47 PM
I am wondering the very same. Or rather, my question is this.. are they most closely related to Bantus? West African non-Bantu people? Isolated groups like the Hadza and Khoisan?

My belief is that they are indigenous to East Africa and developed alongside/parallel to the ancestors of Bantus and West Africans but are neither directly descended from them nor ancestral to them.

West Africans and East Africans have been mixing with each other long before the Bantu expansion. There is a clear migration from E1b1a* from Ethiopia to E1b1a1-M2 West Africa for instance. L3e, L3b, L3d probably migrated with him from East to West. Furthermore, L2a1, L2b3, and L1b1a2 migrated from West/Central Africa into East Africa long before the Bantu expansion.

Meanwhile the South African Khoisan were always just A & B on the male side and L0d, L0k, L0f on the female side until the Bantu expansion.