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View Full Version : Genotype vs Phenotpe - when your Phenotype does not Match with your claimed Ancestry



Saad2016
06-09-2018, 01:26 PM
Most phenotypes (physical characteristics) are influenced by both your genotype and the unique circumstances in which you have lived your life, including everything that has ever happened to you. We often refer to these two inputs as “nature,” the unique genome you carry, and “nurture,” the environment in which you have lived your life.

In India and Pakistan, genetic diversity is very vast, people claim to have many foreign ancestry claims some claim to have arab lineage some turk some mongol and some Aryan and Sycthian etc.

My curiosity is ; if that is the case then there has to be a direct relation between phenotype and genotype. To sum/explain up my argument a person who claims to be of chinsese ancestry have to look like a Chinese and if he doesn't then his claim is dubious. Looking in the mirror is one of the best proof of your ancestry , which many south Asians shy away from. Phenotype is greatly impacted by your genotype and does not and cannot evolve in isolation of it. A Chinese man cannot have an arab phenotype and like versa.



Do u guys agree? I am sorry if I have offended anybody. The purpose is to have a healthy debate and not cause an offense.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-09-2018, 03:24 PM
It is a very good topic if we talk in calm manner. In my opinion since SAs are so mixed, the genetic inheritance is very random. That's why you've sibling who can look very different in terms of features and skin tone.

Saad2016
06-09-2018, 07:19 PM
It is a very good topic if we talk in calm manner. In my opinion since SAs are so mixed, the genetic inheritance is very random. That's why you've sibling who can look very different in terms of features and skin tone.

Thank you for your participation. I agree that we have sibling who tend to be a lighter or darker skin tone in India/Pakistan. However, a strange tendency in south Asian exists that compel many to find their ancestors outside of region. For instance in my country of origin i.e. Pakistan , you would find many clans/tribes that claim to be arabs, turks and so on but when I look at their phenotype they don't even look a bit like their claimed ancestors and if the current populations of arabia come to know that we have these people in south Asian who claim to be from them...they would probably laugh at them aloud. Same goes with castes systems. I find this term "Low caste" very derogatory but people use it in south Asian as if they are a different genetic stock, when scientifically speaking that's not the case. The genepool is the same but due to social status etc etc. they started these caste based pseudo genealogy which is not solid at all!

poi
06-09-2018, 08:01 PM
Phenotypes can overlap despite no (recent) genetic ties. It is like looking at the shape/color/texture of the food and thinking they taste the same and have the same same nutritional properties. Chances are that two similar looking food taste the tame, but there is also a chance that they do not at all.

For example, South Asians and Arabs, do not share recent ancestry. In genetic tests, Arabs and South Asians are "distinct". The most recent ancestry probably diverged 10,000+ years ago. Yet, many South Asians are easily confused for Arabs and vice versa. That alone should tell us that phenotype is very subjective. If we go down this rabbit hole, we're going to have to open up 19th century literature to figure out "Races of Man" and start posting "plates" of side profiles and measurement of cranial index.

Censored
06-09-2018, 09:55 PM
Phenotypes can overlap despite no (recent) genetic ties. It is like looking at the shape/color/texture of the food and thinking they taste the same and have the same same nutritional properties. Chances are that two similar looking food taste the tame, but there is also a chance that they do not at all.

For example, South Asians and Arabs, do not share recent ancestry. In genetic tests, Arabs and South Asians are "distinct". The most recent ancestry probably diverged 10,000+ years ago. Yet, many South Asians are easily confused for Arabs and vice versa. That alone should tell us that phenotype is very subjective. If we go down this rabbit hole, we're going to have to open up 19th century literature to figure out "Races of Man" and start posting "plates" of side profiles and measurement of cranial index.


There is certainly some overlap although not as much as some people think. Peninsular Arabs can look quite a bit like some north Indians as can some Persians. Also, the similarity seems to be pretty limited to the males for some reason. Our women always look very different from theirs. No idea why this is.

thejkhan
06-09-2018, 10:21 PM
Same goes with castes systems. I find this term "Low caste" very derogatory but people use it in south Asian as if they are a different genetic stock, when scientifically speaking that's not the case. The genepool is the same but due to social status ...

Sadly, this is simply not true. DNA tests in recent times have proved there is correlation between caste status and the proportion of ancestry from particular ancestral groups.

poi
06-09-2018, 11:18 PM
There is certainly some overlap although not as much as some people think. Peninsular Arabs can look quite a bit like some north Indians as can some Persians. Also, the similarity seems to be pretty limited to the males for some reason. Our women always look very different from theirs. No idea why this is.

Females are much more inclined to modify their appearances than males. Females in general wear massive eyeliners, many even put on fake eyelashes, most definitely fix up their eyebrows, most put on lipstick and many wear foundation and makeup.

And, no, I did not just go through my wife's makeup kit lol

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:16 AM
Sadly, this is simply not true. DNA tests in recent times have proved there is correlation between caste status and the proportion of ancestry from particular ancestral groups.

this table proves it otherwise, almost all ethnic groupos/clans are mixed check this out :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

Sapporo
06-10-2018, 12:21 AM
this table proves it otherwise, almost all ethnic groupos/clans are mixed check this out :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

He's referring to autosomal ancestry. Not Y-DNA. Also, "lower castes" tend to have different proportions of West Eurasian Y-DNA and mt-DNA than "upper castes."

Censored
06-10-2018, 12:21 AM
Females are much more inclined to modify their appearances than males. Females in general wear massive eyeliners, many even put on fake eyelashes, most definitely fix up their eyebrows, most put on lipstick and many wear foundation and makeup.

And, no, I did not just go through my wife's makeup kit lol

Possible. Middle Eastern women have a unique make up style. Also we tend to pay more attention to minute details in females compared to other males.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:23 AM
He's referring to autosomal ancestry. Not Y-DNA. Also, "lower castes" tend to have different proportions of West Eurasian Y-DNA and mt-DNA than "upper castes.

what is an upper caste and what is a lower caste ? where did they originate from? your religious scripture? or do u have a scientific evidence for that?

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:29 AM
The minor variations in autosomal are due to geography..find your so called upper cast from north of india and find one upper cast from south of indian, you will find a variation there too and hence a blow on your theory of upper vs lower castes.

Censored
06-10-2018, 12:41 AM
The minor variations in autosomal are due to geography..find your so called upper cast from north of india and find one upper cast from south of indian, you will find a variation there too and hence a blow on your theory of upper vs lower castes.

The variation in autosomal dna is not minor. The differences between castes in any given Indian state can be as big as different nationalities in Europe or the Mideast.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:46 AM
The variation in autosomal dna is not minor. The differences between castes in any given Indian state can be as big as different nationalities in Europe or the Mideast.

do u have a data that of atleast 200 samples from the high caste from the north and then 200 samples from the hight castes of the south and see if they are similar too? variations will be there ...but my point is that these variations are due to geography and not castes ! I don't believe in caste systems. Sorry if u have hurt your sentiments.

Censored
06-10-2018, 12:53 AM
do u have a data that of atleast 200 samples from the high caste from the north and then 200 samples from the hight castes of the south and see if they are similar too? variations will be there ...but my point is that these variations are due to geography and not castes ! I don't believe in caste systems. Sorry if u have hurt your sentiments.

Nobody is denying variations due to geography. You can find that by controlling for caste. Similarly you can find variations due to caste by controlling for geography(i.e within the same state). The proof is already well documented.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:55 AM
Nobody is denying variations due to geography. You can find that by controlling for caste. Similarly you can find variations due to caste by controlling for geography(i.e within the same state). The proof is already well documented.

lets agree to disagree. The so called higher castes of the North will not match with the higher castes of the south . Any studies done on that?

poi
06-10-2018, 01:54 AM
lets agree to disagree. The so called higher castes of the North will not match with the higher castes of the south . Any studies done on that?

There are a number of "upper caste" groups in the South that have historically migrated from the North. And probably many have legends of migration. And Tamil Brahmins do have different profile from Tamil Scheduled Castes, for example. Ditto for UP Brahmins and Scheduled Castes. In the Northwest, things become a bit muddier because of lack of caste system, at least the system based purely on immediate occupation rather than ancestral lineage.

A lot of geneticists would be unemployed right now if it was not for the caste system. I swear the only place where "caste system" is so relevant is in these genetic studies. Society(that I interact with at least) seems to have moved on for the most part.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 02:16 AM
There are a number of "upper caste" groups in the South that have historically migrated from the North. And probably many have legends of migration. And Tamil Brahmins do have different profile from Tamil Scheduled Castes, for example. Ditto for UP Brahmins and Scheduled Castes. In the Northwest, things become a bit muddier because of lack of caste system, at least the system based purely on immediate occupation rather than ancestral lineage.

A lot of geneticists would be unemployed right now if it was not for the caste system. I swear the only place where "caste system" is so relevant is in these genetic studies. Society(that I interact with at least) seems to have moved on for the most part.

sometimes they deliberately push a caste based narrative to protect certain interest groups, I always say increase your sample size and then let a neutral non south Asian conduct/lead the research . I don't trust govt led or local researches as they are always biased and religiously motivated.

Sapporo
06-10-2018, 11:35 AM
what is an upper caste and what is a lower caste ? where did they originate from? your religious scripture? or do u have a scientific evidence for that?

Look, it's not my religion. I'm irreligious and don't follow any caste system. It's in reference to groups which are generally seen as "upper caste" such as Brahmins, Kshatriya, etc. or avarna and outside of the caste system (for some groups in the North/Northwest) versus groups which are generally seen as "lower caste" such as dalits, chamars or tribals. There is a genetic cline with regards to West Eurasian ancestry in South Asia and it is closely linked to whether you are from "upper caste/avarna groups" or "lower castes/dalit" ancestry. These are facts and there are papers written on it (Reich, Moorjani, etc.). You can discuss these things without getting all up in arms over who is upper caste and who is lower caste or even discussing religion.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 12:41 PM
It is racist to say that Brahmin is an upper caste and dalit is a low caste. Don't you think so?

redifflal
06-10-2018, 01:05 PM
It is racist to say that Brahmin is an upper caste and dalit is a low caste. Don't you think so?

Lower upper etc is not used in civilized dialogue anymore in India. The terms originate from direct translations of "Ooch" and "Neech". The thing is, there are proper nouns for different groups but then it becomes too numerous for official work example affirmative action. So the position-neutral vocabulary that India uses is Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Groups get enlisted into these categories via extensive surveys village to village to see who is being discriminated against through untouchability.
But nowadays I think SCST can also take derogatory or dismissive forms like "Oh I don't go to SCST doctors". The word for upper is general category.

If you are inside a region particularly if you go to village level, phenotype will match caste. But when you look cross regional like in Delhi our Mumbai big cities, a UP/Bihar upper caste will look like a Punjab lower or middle caste, a Bengali or south Indian upper caste will look like a UP/Bihar middle or lower caste.

The caste system is not built around phenotype or around who has what percentage foreign autosomal makeup. It could be that groups from Punjab out migrated into different parts of rest of north India during Vedic times and established as upper castes. So whatever autosomal makeup was going on there just got carried through to the rest.

Saad2016
06-10-2018, 01:38 PM
Lower upper etc is not used in civilized dialogue anymore in India. The terms originate from direct translations of "Ooch" and "Neech". The thing is, there are proper nouns for different groups but then it becomes too numerous for official work example affirmative action. So the position-neutral vocabulary that India uses is Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Groups get enlisted into these categories via extensive surveys village to village to see who is being discriminated against through untouchability.
But nowadays I think SCST can also take derogatory or dismissive forms like "Oh I don't go to SCST doctors". The word for upper is general category.

If you are inside a region particularly if you go to village level, phenotype will match caste. But when you look cross regional like in Delhi our Mumbai big cities, a UP/Bihar upper caste will look like a Punjab lower or middle caste, a Bengali or south Indian upper caste will look like a UP/Bihar middle or lower caste.

The caste system is not built around phenotype or around who has what percentage foreign autosomal makeup. It could be that groups from Punjab out migrated into different parts of rest of north India during Vedic times and established as upper castes. So whatever autosomal makeup was going on there just got carried through to the rest.

Thank you for confirming that these racist words are getting gradually eliminated from India. As a gesture of equality and respect for diversity, May I request the forum mods to ban these terms " High caste" and " Low caste" from this forum and use proper nouns for instance when mentioning the brahmans ethnic entity call them Brahmin and not high caste and when mentioning dalit or some other clan call them with their proper noun and not as a Low caste?

purohit
06-10-2018, 07:05 PM
Itna load kyo le raha hai

agent_lime
06-11-2018, 04:46 AM
Thank you for confirming that these racist words are getting gradually eliminated from India. As a gesture of equality and respect for diversity, May I request the forum mods to ban these terms " High caste" and " Low caste" from this forum and use proper nouns for instance when mentioning the brahmans ethnic entity call them Brahmin and not high caste and when mentioning dalit or some other clan call them with their proper noun and not as a Low caste?

It's a general classification between general castes and SC/ST people of India. Since this is a genetics forum, and these folks are genetically apart. I don't understand why this is a big deal.

khanabadoshi
06-11-2018, 05:08 AM
Thank you for confirming that these racist words are getting gradually eliminated from India. As a gesture of equality and respect for diversity, May I request the forum mods to ban these terms " High caste" and " Low caste" from this forum and use proper nouns for instance when mentioning the brahmans ethnic entity call them Brahmin and not high caste and when mentioning dalit or some other clan call them with their proper noun and not as a Low caste?

It is somewhat necessary when discussing the historical, societal, and genetic factors that led to the of the peopling of South Asia to use the terms "caste" and "high" or "low"; if for no other reason than to understand if there is a genetic relevance to caste and what that relevance is. While I agree with you that the use of the proper noun is preferable, for the sake of genetic discussion, we do need to know if the group is "high" or "low" to observe if there are patterns. On this forum, the use of the term high-caste and low-caste are filters, to sort through all the various data: f. ex. Group A, Group B, Group C; one is not assigning cultural status, one is just sorting by 1 of the many variables we use to make sense of the data. You must take into account the historical implications of caste because they claim to be based on some difference -- is that difference genetic or purely self-assigned? I think most would agree that genetics simultaneously proves that the fine-scaled hierarchy in the caste/varna system is moot -- especially relative to geography -- while at the same time proves that there are genetic distinctions between castes (especially within the same geographical region).

tl;dr - There is value in use of these terms especially in the context of an anthropology and genetics forum. If they are used to insult, malign, or denigrate a person or group, we will ban the user -- not the word.

redifflal
06-11-2018, 04:33 PM
Saad I have had a similar sentiment as you in the past when a few trollish users came on reflecting a casteist mindset in disparaging groups and using the terms low in that regard. However the majority of genica desi users from what I've noted are also too far removed from the social context and it should be apparent that the low/high terminology is being used purely as a way of referring to group A or B. Using proper nouns can get cumbersome but I do think at some point we do need to graduate our discussion to that level anyway for academic purposes because giant groupings like low/high or SCST etc do become lazy. In my opinion caste becomes relevant only after region or language, so there should always be a linguistic/ethnic qualifier in front of caste, not just the caste.

midichlorian
06-11-2018, 07:53 PM
Thread has been derailed about caste discussion instead of discussion about phenotypes and genotypes. Good job folks.... smh

poi
06-11-2018, 10:17 PM
Thread has been derailed about caste discussion instead of discussion about phenotypes and genotypes. Good job folks.... smh

But it can be brought back to the topic after the elephant in the room is addressed.

Back to the topic: various commercial companies use just a few SNPs to determine skin pigmemtation. But we know, atleast for South Asians, those aren't enough. Are there SNPs to determine other characteristics? If somebody generous enough to make a list or point to the list somewhere online?