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Gray Fox
10-15-2013, 02:55 AM
I figured I'd start a new Norman thread to discuss potential families and surnames associated with this bunch. I remember the thread that Mikewww, started a few years ago and I haven't seen one like it since.

My main stake in this is my own paternal line. Which over the years has changed drastically. For those of you who remember me from the dna-forum's, you'll know that I was at one point considering my paternal line to be Highlander Scots!

Though I did finally confirm it to be from Devon, England. Which has led to the theory I'm about to present. I'll repeat this is just my own theory based on the research I've done for my specific genealogy.

A bit of background on my surname and coat of arms.. "Isaac, or Izacke, of Buriatt in Atherington. — This ancient family was settled at Buriatt as early as the reign of Henry III. The estate has been long ago alienated, but the family, I am informed, still exists, the representative living at Newton Tracey, and a younger branch at Newport, near Barnstaple."

My Isaac group appears to be of this initial, "Ancient" branch. Though over the years they generally stayed in the Winkleigh area of Devon, before moving closer to the Exeter area. The further north one goes in Devon, the higher amount of Isaac's there appears to be. Even extending on up into Southern Wales, where the surname reaches one of its frequency peaks.

"A coat of arms was granted to the Isaac family of Devonshire in the reign of Henry III (1216 - 1272). It has the blazon of a blue field charged per pale azure and purple, with a gold cross flory/fleury."

From what I have been able to find, it appears that the surname evolved out of the Latinized Anglo-Norman name, Filius Isaac, meaning son of Isaac. Of which there are a few variant's, these being Isaac/Isaacs, Higgins, Higginson, and Hickson.

The coat of arm's granted to the family are another source of my reasoning. The main feature of the arm's, the "Gold Cross Fleury", appears to derive its unique design from the French staple of Heraldry, the "Fleur-De-Lis". It seems this particular style of cross is associated with "One who has conquered". Another nod to possible connection with a French/Norman background.

The color of the arms is another source of interest.. "As an heraldic colour, the word azure simply means "blue". It is one of many concepts with both a French and German word in English, the former being used by the French-speaking nobles following the Norman Conquest of England in 1066."

"The many great estates subsequently held by William’s barons in Devon were known as "honours". Chief amongst them were Plympton, Okehampton, Barnstaple, Totnes and Harberton."

I'm not proposing that my y-line is a descendant of one of these barons per say, but I do think it is likely that we may be the descendants of a guard (possibly infantryman turned guard) or even a knight of some sort. This is where I'm really going out on a limb, as I have no idea what would be likely, given the name isn't generally well known. My main point regarding the Honours, is that there was one in the same area of the oldest known group of my family.

Another reason for all of this rambling, is my somewhat distant match with a Frenchman, whose ancestry is of Gallo/Breton descent. This person and I are both SRY2627 and share a rather uncommon str value, with 14 repeats at DYS392. I remember using a tmrca calculator a couple months back to see where the Frenchman and myself stood. Given the imprecise nature of these calculators, I came up with a general timeframe of 957 AD or 1033 AD.

At any rate, here are my initial thoughts on the subject!

I hope other's will contribute their family histories as well.

GTC
10-15-2013, 04:12 AM
"Though over the years they generally stayed in the Winkleigh area of Devon,

Are you in the Devon DNA project?

(And Sam, please keep your finger off the apostrophe key! ;) )

Gray Fox
10-15-2013, 04:20 AM
Are you in the Devon DNA project?

(And Sam, please keep your finger off the apostrophe key! ;) )

Gaahh! I knew something didn't look right about that title! :doh:

No, I'm not allowed to join the project due to the amount of time my specific branch of the family has been out of the area. However, I did discover my "cousin" through their project. So there was no need for me to join.

(*Any moderator's reading this, please feel free to correct my grammar regarding the title. )

GTC
10-15-2013, 04:37 AM
My paternal line is reportedly Anglo-Norman with historical record mentions of Devonshire.

Gray Fox
10-15-2013, 12:57 PM
Yes, Hiberno-Norman if I'm not mistaken? Interestingly enough, there appears to be a Joyce in the SRY2627 project. With regards to SRY2627 in the Isles, I'd say a good portion of it is there due to the Normans. I also have a Hargis line in my tree that appears to have arrived to England in this manner too. Though from what I've read of the Hargis's their appears to be a possibility of them arriving through Huguenot immigration.

GTC
10-15-2013, 01:44 PM
Yes, Hiberno-Norman if I'm not mistaken?

Yes, if historical records are true, apparently part of Stongbow's invasion forces.


Interestingly enough, there appears to be a Joyce in the SRY2627 project. With regards to SRY2627 in the Isles, I'd say a good portion of it is there due to the Normans. I also have a Hargis line in my tree that appears to have arrived to England in this manner too. Though from what I've read of the Hargis's their appears to be a possibility of them arriving through Huguenot immigration.

I don't know much about SRY2627. What's its distribution in France?

Gray Fox
10-15-2013, 01:57 PM
From academic testing the sub clade has shown a strong preference to the Pyrenees in general (Basically the same for the French and Spanish side). More recent studies have shown the clade to be quite common in the Aquitaine region as well. With some author's referring to it as a good fit for a sizeable amount of the ancient male population of that region.

Commercial testing has shown the sub clade to cluster in and around the Poitou region. Extending on up and getting lighter as one moves through Brittany and becoming very infrequent in the Isles. Though France in general seems to be somewhat thick with this clade, decreasing in numbers as you move to the East and Northeast of the country.

Gray Fox
10-17-2013, 03:09 AM
Regarding the Joyce SRY2627. It seems there is a small family cluster of Joyce's who belong to said sub clade, reporting roots to Ireland. I notice there is also a group of Joyce's from Ireland who have turned up L21. I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders. I doubt very much that the Native Irishmen would have belonged to SRY2627. I don't know of any SRY2627 that has been reported as being truly Native. Another interesting aspect of the Joyce family, well interesting to me, is that they also have 14 repeats at DYS392. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to believe it may have something do with a French/Norman origin for us both.

A similar trend also seems to be present in the Fitzgerald's.. With native groups adopting the name being L21 and the original invaders seem to have belonged to haplogroup I1. The Fitzhugh's also seem to be either I1 or I2a.

rms2
10-17-2013, 09:19 AM
. . . I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders . . .

That may be true, but has any SRY2627 been found in Normandy?

I do see one in the Normandy Y-DNA Project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

Gray Fox
10-17-2013, 09:42 AM
Thanks for the info. I don't really think of SRY2627 as being Norman. Rather I believe it was brought with the Normans. I feel my own specific branch, if it is in fact "Norman", was originally in the Gallo speaking region of Brittany.

AJL
10-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Thread title fixed. Moving on...

rossa
10-17-2013, 05:45 PM
Regarding the Joyce SRY2627. It seems there is a small family cluster of Joyce's who belong to said sub clade, reporting roots to Ireland. I notice there is also a group of Joyce's from Ireland who have turned up L21. I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders. I doubt very much that the Native Irishmen would have belonged to SRY2627. I don't know of any SRY2627 that has been reported as being truly Native. Another interesting aspect of the Joyce family, well interesting to me, is that they also have 14 repeats at DYS392. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to believe it may have something do with a French/Norman origin for us both.

A similar trend also seems to be present in the Fitzgerald's.. With native groups adopting the name being L21 and the original invaders seem to have belonged to haplogroup I1. The Fitzhugh's also seem to be either I1 or I2a.

I wonder how the surnames Burke and Walsh stack up clade wise.

Gray Fox
10-17-2013, 08:17 PM
I wonder how the surnames Burke and Walsh stack up clade wise.

As far as the Walsh clan is concerned, they seem to mirror the Fitzgerald's and Fitzhugh's. I couldn't find a project for the Burke family. Is it safe to assume you have Norman family name as well?

rossa
10-17-2013, 08:33 PM
As far as the Walsh clan is concerned, they seem to mirror the Fitzgerald's and Fitzhugh's. I couldn't find a project for the Burke family. Is it safe to assume you have Norman family name as well?

No my name is gaelic but given my haplogroup it derived form a similar sounding Scottish name. I just find it interesting that names like Walsh and Burke have a fairly high frequency; I'd say it may be down to people wanting to associate themselves with more prestigious families. In your research would you consider Rose a Norman surname?

Gray Fox
10-17-2013, 09:48 PM
No my name is gaelic but given my haplogroup it derived form a similar sounding Scottish name. I just find it interesting that names like Walsh and Burke have a fairly high frequency; I'd say it may be down to people wanting to associate themselves with more prestigious families. In your research would you consider Rose a Norman surname?

This should answer your question... https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Rose

I also agree with you on the issue of Native families adopting more prestigious names as a step up, so to speak.

thetick
10-18-2013, 02:43 AM
That may be true, but has any SRY2627 been found in Normandy?

There are a few..
783

rossa
10-18-2013, 05:58 AM
This should answer your question... https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Rose

I also agree with you on the issue of Native families adopting more prestigious names as a step up, so to speak.

Thanks, the name is common near where I am from but most likely everyone with it is related not too long ago, I never saw that description before.

rms2
10-18-2013, 07:53 AM
There are a few..
783

How many individuals do those dots represent?

rms2
10-18-2013, 10:53 AM
There are a few..
783

Actually, none of those looks like it's solidly in Normandy. The one just west of Paris might be in Normandy, but it's difficult to tell.

Isidro
10-18-2013, 12:50 PM
Hello there, I couldn't help noticing .
I assume that is a FTDNA map?. I believe it is grossly incomplete. I have been "diagnosed" L176.2 for over 2 years and L176.2* for well over a year at FTDNA and my dot is not showing in the map in the Valencia region in Spain.
And yes, my coordinates have been accurately entered for about 8 years now.

GTC
10-18-2013, 01:09 PM
Hello there, I couldn't help noticing .
I assume that is a FTDNA map?. I believe it is grossly incomplete. I have been "diagnosed" L176.2 for over 2 years and L176.2* for well over a year at FTDNA and my dot is not showing in the map in the Valencia region in Spain.
And yes, my coordinates have been accurately entered for about 8 years now.

FTDNA is falling seriously behind in maintaining its site. Strikes me their IT mob is constantly in fire-fighting mode, so housekeeping tasks don't get done.

Nonetheless, you can sometimes get such issues addressed individually by contacting FTDNA directly and pointing out what needs to be done.

You may get a response along the lines of "it's on our list", or they may just address it if it's easy.

Isidro
10-18-2013, 01:21 PM
Thank you for your advice. Like you say, maintenance for FTDNA is an issue. It has been today 3 months since I ordered FF and still waiting. I would be disappointed if FTDNA lost it's competitiveness after so many years I feel somehow attached to them.


FTDNA is falling seriously behind in maintaining its site. Strikes me their IT mob is constantly in fire-fighting mode, so housekeeping tasks don't get done.

Nonetheless, you can sometimes get such issues addressed individually by contacting FTDNA directly and pointing out what needs to be done.

You may get a response along the lines of "it's on our list", or they may just address it if it's easy.

Gray Fox
10-22-2013, 01:26 PM
My Breton "cousin" has contacted me with a very interesting list of Norman soldiers/knights settling in Devon.

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/devonshire7.html

Seems a good number of these settlers/invaders can trace their homeland to Brittany.. Many in the Eastern part of the county.

He too seems to believe we both derive from a similar place..

"Here I have all the names and places 40 miles around your village called Winkleigh in Devon. As my family had a similar status as your and I can trace them back to the very same village they are today - that is back to 1521 for sure) I believe your family did not move too far away neither. Knowing this I strongly believe you descend from one of the knights who came with William the Conqueror. As you will see by their family names they are all from North East Brittany, and Cotentin (North West Normandy) -- as of 1474 the guy with my family name is said to came from an important medieval naval town called LE VIVIER SUR MER which is right at the border between Brittany and Normandy. I really believe some one in that list is your ancestor and bear the name we both add at that time... "

TigerMW
10-22-2013, 10:04 PM
I wonder how the surnames Burke and Walsh stack up clade wise.

Both are a bit like everything else in much of Europe... a lot of R1b and little bit of a number of other things. I don't think you can tell that much by general looks at the projects. You probably have to get down to the details of genealogies and locations and see if any match up with genes. Still, it's a long time ago that the Normans came to and through England and they appear to have been a mixed group of recruits.

Baltimore1937
10-22-2013, 11:10 PM
You might want to try and trace your direct maternal line. Mitochondrial mtDNA is more stable than Y-STRs. You can go a long way back with your maternal haplotype. Of course the surname usually changes with each generation.

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 12:21 AM
Both are a bit like everything else in much of Europe... a lot of R1b and little bit of a number of other things. I don't think you can tell that much by general looks at the projects. You probably have to get down to the details of genealogies and locations and see if any match up with genes. Still, it's a long time ago that the Normans came to and through England and they appear to have been a mixed group of recruits.

Considering the high amount of L21 amongst Hiberno-Norman families, I think it is pretty safe to assume that in most cases the names were adopted by native Irish. I'm guessing the Normans didn't really make that big of an impact, genetically speaking, especially on Ireland. So I think the projects do give a fairly accurate picture, with actual, high societal, land owning Normans belonging to groups more foreign to areas such as Ireland. I'm sure you know more on the Walsh family than most anyone here, so I won't comment on that particular family.

GTC
10-23-2013, 02:15 AM
As always when this subject is discussed, I wish we could get more of our French cousins to test. However, we and they are up against complicating legal issues with DNA testing there, summarized as: DNA tests to determine paternity can only be ordered by a court. Doing otherwise is breaking the law.

I would love to discuss this legislation with a French lawyer to determine how it applies to DNA testing for genealogical purposes. Nonetheless, the effect of this law seems to be that 'the man in the street' thinks that all self-initiated DNA testing is prohibited in France.

I live in hope that, one of these days, the French government will take a cue from England and Ireland and fund a project such as 'The DNA Atlas of France'.

rms2
10-23-2013, 08:00 AM
Considering the high amount of L21 amongst Hiberno-Norman families, I think it is pretty safe to assume that in most cases the names were adopted by native Irish. I'm guessing the Normans didn't really make that big of an impact, genetically speaking, especially on Ireland. So I think the projects do give a fairly accurate picture, with actual, high societal, land owning Normans belonging to groups more foreign to areas such as Ireland. I'm sure you know more on the Walsh family than most anyone here, so I won't comment on that particular family.

I don't think that is safe to assume at all. L21 is very frequent in northern France, including Normandy. It is the most frequent y haplogroup in the Normandy Y-DNA Project, for example.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

801

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 10:21 AM
I don't think that is safe to assume at all. L21 is very frequent in northern France, including Normandy. It is the most frequent y haplogroup in the Normandy Y-DNA Project, for example.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

801

How many of these L21 people are true Normans in the sense that they would be descended from the actual Northmen?? How many would be of Brythonic descent? I had actually considered a Brythonic back migration of sorts to explain some of the L21 that might show up. Of course I didn't say that every L21 result amongst a person in Ireland who is claiming Norman descent would be a red-herring either. In general? You bet.

I'm referring to a small percentage here and if we're going with the thought these people were an elite few, then I am correct in saying that true Normans, not those who happen to live in Normandy, are more likely to be of a haplo-group that is reflective of Scandinavia. Was L21 along with other P312 clades brought into/back to the Isles and then Ireland? Of course, but I do not believe they represent the true Scandinavian Normans. Who's to say that the Native population in Normandy didn't do the same thing that the Native populations in the Isles and Ireland did? Simply adopting a prestigious name in order to get a leg up in society.

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 10:43 AM
As always when this subject is discussed, I wish we could get more of our French cousins to test. However, we and they are up against complicating legal issues with DNA testing there, summarized as: DNA tests to determine paternity can only be ordered by a court. Doing otherwise is breaking the law.

I would love to discuss this legislation with a French lawyer to determine how it applies to DNA testing for genealogical purposes. Nonetheless, the effect of this law seems to be that 'the man in the street' thinks that all self-initiated DNA testing is prohibited in France.

I live in hope that, one of these days, the French government will take a cue from England and Ireland and fund a project such as 'The DNA Atlas of France'.

Unfortunately the way France views such things as ethnicity, I'd say it will be a while yet before the current belief system is altered.

From Wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people

"Seeing itself as an inclusive nation with universal values, France has always valued and strongly advocated assimilation. However, the success of such assimilation has recently been called into question. There is increasing dissatisfaction with, and within, growing ethno-cultural enclaves (communautarisme). The 2005 French riots in some troubled and impoverished suburbs (les quartiers sensibles) were an example of such tensions. However they should not be interpreted as ethnic conflicts (as appeared before in other countries like the USA and the UK) but as social conflicts born out of socioeconomic problems endangering proper integration."

I doubt they would institute something that might further instigate possible ethnic separation.

rms2
10-23-2013, 11:13 AM
How many of these L21 people are true Normans in the sense that they would be descended from the actual Northmen?? How many would be of Brythonic descent? I had actually considered a Brythonic back migration of sorts to explain some of the L21 that might show up. Of course I didn't say that every L21 result amongst a person in Ireland who is claiming Norman descent would be a red-herring either. In general? You bet.

No, I wouldn't bet on that at all. L21 is common in Normandy. A person of actual Norman descent in Ireland - or anywhere else - is very likely to be L21+, since R-L21 is one of the most frequent y haplogroups in Normandy. Or do facts not matter?

Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all. If they were transplanted Britons, one would expect them to have some haplotype neighbors within 1500 years or so who are Welshmen or Cornishmen. They don't. Even if they were the descendants of transplanted Britons, the British exodus to Bretagne (no such exodus to Normandy is known) took place in the 5th and 6th centuries: long before the Norman Conquest.

From what I have seen, the "Northmen" for whom Normandy was named formed a thin veneer at the very top of society. Most of them were probably I-M253, with some R-U106, but not a lot of either has shown up in Normandy, as far as I know. The bulk of the population would have been Gallo-Roman natives, and many of those would have been R-L21. Of course, L21 is also not uncommon in Norway, where at least some of the "Northmen" who went to Normandy are said to have come from. That's not something I care much about, however.

I don't know how much R-SRY2627 there is in Normandy; some probably, but only one has shown up in the Normandy Y-DNA Project thus far.



I'm referring to a small percentage here and if we're going with the thought these people were an elite few, then I am correct in saying that true Normans, not those who happen to live in Normandy, are more likely to be of a haplo-group that is reflective of Scandinavia. Was L21 along with other P312 clades brought into/back to the Isles and then Ireland? Of course, but I do not believe they represent the true Scandinavian Normans. Who's to say that the Native population in Normandy didn't do the same thing that the Native populations in the Isles and Ireland did? Simply adopting a prestigious name in order to get a leg up in society.

Those involved in genetic genealogy who can actually trace their ancestry to Normandy are few, and by far most of them are French citizens or French Canadians. Some are Cajuns from Louisiana, who are the descendants of transplanted French Canadians. They certainly have a far far better claim to the title of Norman than most people of British Isles descent who imagine they have a Norman-descended surname but have absolutely no other provable connection to Normandy. I administered the Normandy Y-DNA Project for awhile (but was never a member myself) and I can tell you there are hordes of people who apply for membership in it who read on some web site somewhere or in some book that their last name was brought to England by the Normans. One would think the Normans completely overran and repopulated the place! But none of those people can establish any sort of real connection to Normandy. I have seen web sites that attribute my own surname to the Normans or to a Breton knight called Fitzstephen. Fact or fiction? I don't know, but either way, I make no claim to be a Norman or a Breton. I have better claim on the title of West Virginian.

As for "true Normans", meaning transplanted Scandinavians, I don't think their numbers in Normandy were ever very large. The Normans very quickly adopted the French language and, I believe, were absorbed and assimilated by the native Gallo-Roman population, which was probably largely R-L21, R-U152, and R-DF27 (some of that latter probably R-SRY2627). By the time the Normans went to Britain as conquerors, they weren't the same people they were a century or more earlier.

There was a large Breton contingent in William the Conqueror's army. Busby et al found L21 at 40% or more in Bretagne.

By the way, the Royal House of Stewart, family of a number of famous kings and queens of Scotland and England, has a pretty good claim on descent from Alan Fitz Flaad, a Breton knight born about 1070 (too late to have been in William's army, however). They have tested L21+ (actually L21>DF13>DF41>L745). Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, y-dna descendant of King Charles II, tested with ScotlandsDNA. He also has an STR match with a known descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at the Battle of Culloden.

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 01:42 PM
No, I wouldn't bet on that at all. L21 is common in Normandy. A person of actual Norman descent in Ireland - or anywhere else - is very likely to be L21+, since R-L21 is one of the most frequent y haplogroups in Normandy. Or do facts not matter?

Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all. If they were transplanted Britons, one would expect them to have some haplotype neighbors within 1500 years or so who are Welshmen or Cornishmen. They don't. Even if they were the descendants of transplanted Britons, the British exodus to Bretagne (no such exodus to Normandy is known) took place in the 5th and 6th centuries: long before the Norman Conquest.

From what I have seen, the "Northmen" for whom Normandy was named formed a thin veneer at the very top of society. Most of them were probably I-M253, with some R-U106, but not a lot of either has shown up in Normandy, as far as I know. The bulk of the population would have been Gallo-Roman natives, and many of those would have been R-L21. Of course, L21 is also not uncommon in Norway, where at least some of the "Northmen" who went to Normandy are said to have come from. That's not something I care much about, however.

I don't know how much R-SRY2627 there is in Normandy; some probably, but only one has shown up in the Normandy Y-DNA Project thus far.



Those involved in genetic genealogy who can actually trace their ancestry to Normandy are few, and by far most of them are French citizens or French Canadians. Some are Cajuns from Louisiana, who are the descendants of transplanted French Canadians. They certainly have a far far better claim to the title of Norman than most people of British Isles descent who imagine they have a Norman-descended surname but have absolutely no other provable connection to Normandy. I administered the Normandy Y-DNA Project for awhile (but was never a member myself) and I can tell you there are hordes of people who apply for membership in it who read on some web site somewhere or in some book that their last name was brought to England by the Normans. One would think the Normans completely overran and repopulated the place! But none of those people can establish any sort of real connection to Normandy. I have seen web sites that attribute my own surname to the Normans or to a Breton knight called Fitzstephen. Fact or fiction? I don't know, but either way, I make no claim to be a Norman or a Breton. I have better claim on the title of West Virginian.

As for "true Normans", meaning transplanted Scandinavians, I don't think their numbers in Normandy were ever very large. The Normans very quickly adopted the French language and, I believe, were absorbed and assimilated by the native Gallo-Roman population, which was probably largely R-L21, R-U152, and R-DF27 (some of that latter probably R-SRY2627). By the time the Normans went to Britain as conquerors, they weren't the same people they were a century or more earlier.

There was a large Breton contingent in William the Conqueror's army. Busby et al found L21 at 40% or more in Bretagne.

By the way, the Royal House of Stewart, family of a number of famous kings and queens of Scotland and England, has a pretty good claim on descent from Alan Fitz Flaad, a Breton knight born about 1070 (too late to have been in William's army, however). They have tested L21+ (actually L21>DF13>DF41>L745). Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, y-dna descendant of King Charles II, tested with ScotlandsDNA. He also has an STR match with a known descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at the Battle of Culloden.

I was under the impression that the Normans by and large didn't have much of a genetic impact on Ireland or England. I was including all the Normans when I said that, both the Gallo and Scandinavian types (referencing back to my statement about SRY2627 being infrequent in the Isles). So, I still stand by my belief that most of the families in Ireland claiming Norman descent are more likely to have adopted the name from an invading Norman lord. I'd say for the most part, the elites would most likely have an actual claim to Scandinavian heritage. Not all of them, but most of them. We both agree that the true "Norsemen" were in the minority in a group which from what I've seen thus far, has left little mention of itself in a genetic sense.

I also never said L21 wasn't common in Brittany and Normandy by extension, so I don't know where you're getting that I'm ignoring that. My point, if you read my post carefully, was that the true, actual Norsemen were not likely to be L21. Not an impossibility, just not likely. If the French L21 Normans aren't showing any neighbors anywhere else, then how do you expect me to believe that they have large amounts of Irish or English cousins? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying L21 didn't make its way into England and Ireland with the Normans, but I feel that they, like SRY2627 didn't overturn any large number of the male population either.

I do agree that it is very, very hard to claim and lay out a convincing case for Norman heritage, be it Scandinavian or Gallo. I'm certainly not claiming it to be an absolute truth in my case. I'm merely presenting a fairly strong theory, in my opinion, that I may have descended from an invading "Norman". If I didn't have a pretty good claim to kinship to an actual person whose ancestry ultimately hails from a naval town right on the border with Normandy, I wouldn't be as confident in my theory. Our tmrca fits somewhat perfectly, (using an imperfect calculator of course ;)), to around an age that would place our Y-lines diverging just before William's advance.

GTC
10-23-2013, 02:00 PM
If we are talking about William's invasion forces of 1066 then we need to keep in mind that he gathered troops from far and wide.

As the Wiki says (citing references) "William assembled a large invasion fleet and an army gathered from Normandy and all over France, including large contingents from Brittany and Flanders. He mustered his forces at Saint-Valery-sur-Somme and was ready to cross the Channel by about 12 August. The exact numbers and composition of William's force are unknown."

On top of that, during the years of Norman rule, there were comings and goings between England and France of "Norman" settlers, be they original troops or administrative staff or simply immigrants.

When Strongbow assembled his invasion forces 103 years after the Conquest and headed to Ireland he drew from whoever he could draft in Wales.

TigerMW
10-23-2013, 03:52 PM
I think part of the problem is defining what it means to be Norman. From a British Isles point of view I think the people who thought of themselves as being derived from "Anglo-Normans" include those that might have had any one of a number of backgrounds, including ancient Scandinavian, Gallis, Hiberno-Norse, Breton, Flemish and even Welsh... prior to becoming "Anglo-Norman".


I was under the impression that the Normans by and large didn't have much of a genetic impact on Ireland or England. I was including all the Normans when I said that, both the Gallo and Scandinavian types (referencing back to my statement about SRY2627 being infrequent in the Isles). So, I still stand by my belief that most of the families in Ireland claiming Norman descent are more likely to have adopted the name from an invading Norman lord. I'd say for the most part, the elites would most likely have an actual claim to Scandinavian heritage. Not all of them, but most of them. We both agree that the true "Norsemen" were in the minority in a group which from what I've seen thus far, has left little mention of itself in a genetic sense.
...
I really don't think we know what the genetic impact was. It seems like it would be small but I don't know how one can discern this for the following reasons.

1) Anglo-Normans were a mix of people from multiple origins from Scandinavia to the Low Countries to much of France with possibly Gael and Briton mixed in before an arrival in the Isles. The haplogroup mix in northern France looks more like Ireland than England.
2) Anglo-Normans further mixed in England as they went on to Scotland, Wales and finally to Ireland.
3) The sources of Norsemen (and others) in Normandy were also in many cases mixed haplogroup-wise.

How's one to say to who is returning home versus a long time native versus just a distant, distant relation from somewhere else?

A major strength of the Norman movement seems to be their ability to ally and integrate with others. I would consider them internationalists from the git-go.

Alessio B. Bedini
10-23-2013, 04:11 PM
I know the history of southern Italy.
Here the Normans ruled nearly two hundred years
Yet I do not see the maps of FTDNA U106, U198, L1, L48
I think the Normans did not belong to any of These clade.
I see four L21 and two SRY2627.
Perhaps these have more chance ..

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 04:23 PM
Good points, Mike. I admit, I don't know much about L21. Given its unusually high frequency in Ireland and the fact that no one has yet produced evidence for a subclade specific to both those Norman derived L21 people and Hiberno-Irish L21; I just didn't see much of a case for actual Norman origins for a lot of the Irish families who probably just adopted the name. Add to that, what you have just said about the Normans being willing to integrate others into their flock and their route into Ireland, it would seem that a lot of the L21 the Normans brought to Ireland, whatever the extent, was likely from Wales, England and Scotland. Since the French L21 Normans seem to be unique , I'd venture to say their input wasn't as strong as those from the Isles.

rms2
10-23-2013, 04:38 PM
Here is what I was primarily responding to:



Of course I didn't say that every L21 result amongst a person in Ireland who is claiming Norman descent would be a red-herring either. In general? You bet.

In other words, and based on your words in an earlier post, you are saying Irishmen who are L21+ who claim Norman descent and have what are regarded as Norman surnames are really the descendants of "natives" who adopted those surnames. That is actually what you said, and then you reiterated it in the remark I quoted above.

I merely pointed out that L21 is actually very frequent in Normandy, so an L21+ Irishman with a Norman claim and a Norman surname is as likely to be the actual descendant of a Norman as otherwise.

We were also discussing y-dna in Normandy itself, and, to a certain extent neighboring Bretagne, but not the y-dna of the other various contingents in William's army.

The point I made about the French members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have ancestry in Normandy not having haplotype neighbors who are Welshmen or Cornishmen was meant as a counter to the claim that they are the descendants of Britons, not to support a claim that any particular person of British or Irish ancestry is the descendant of a Norman. Since I was not using Norman French L21s to support some British or Irish person's claim of Norman descent, it's a non-sequitur to attempt to imply that because they don't have "large numbers of Irish or English cousins", therefore the Normans who went to England and Ireland included none who were L21+. It's also trying to have things both ways, i.e., first to claim they are the descendants of transplanted Britons, and then, when it turns out they probably aren't, to use that to imply they should likewise have lots of English and Irish haplotype neighbors if they are really Normans.

TigerMW
10-23-2013, 04:52 PM
Good points, Mike. I admit, I don't know much about L21. Given its unusually high frequency in Ireland and the fact that no one has yet produced evidence for a subclade specific to both those Norman derived L21 people and Hiberno-Irish L21; I just didn't see much of a case for actual Norman origins for a lot of the Irish families who probably just adopted the name.
I have no doubt that many old Gaelic families adopted Norman surnames in Ireland. We also have Anglo-Normans in Ireland adopting Gaelicized surnames. I don't think you can make the case for either a Gaelic or Anglo-Norman origin solely on the basis of L21+ or L21-. That's all I'm saying. L21 is too old and too complex to assign (or not assign) to relatively youthful and mixed groups such as the Normans.


it would seem that a lot of the L21 the Normans brought to Ireland, whatever the extent, was likely from Wales, England and Scotland.

Since the French L21 Normans seem to be unique , I'd venture to say their input wasn't as strong as those from the Isles.

This is why I was trying to point how one defines Normans is important. The Anglo-Norman Invaders of Ireland, might have had Welsh and even English Y DNA with them, which could have brought along L21 in either case. Remember we are talking 1070 AD so L21 in England could have been indiscernible in the English populations at that time.

So what is a French L21? We have Bretons which may have been just old Britons and then we have the Gauls, even some Hiberno-Vikings in the Normandy area. I'm not sure that French L21 is unique.

Gray Fox
10-23-2013, 05:27 PM
Here is what I was primarily responding to:



In other words, and based on your words in an earlier post, you are saying Irishmen who are L21+ who claim Norman descent and have what are regarded as Norman surnames are really the descendants of "natives" who adopted those surnames. That is actually what you said, and then you reiterated it in the remark I quoted above.

I merely pointed out that L21 is actually very frequent in Normandy, so an L21+ Irishman with a Norman claim and a Norman surname is as likely to be the actual descendant of a Norman as otherwise.

We were also discussing y-dna in Normandy itself, and, to a certain extent neighboring Bretagne, but not the y-dna of the other various contingents in William's army.

The point I made about the French members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have ancestry in Normandy not having haplotype neighbors who are Welshmen or Cornishmen was meant as a counter to the claim that they are the descendants of Britons, not to support a claim that any particular person of British or Irish ancestry is the descendant of a Norman. Since I was not using Norman French L21s to support some British or Irish person's claim of Norman descent, it's a non-sequitur to attempt to imply that because they don't have "large numbers of Irish or English cousins", therefore the Normans who went to England and Ireland included none who were L21+. It's also trying to have things both ways, i.e., first to claim they are the descendants of transplanted Britons, and then, when it turns out they probably aren't, to use that to imply they should likewise have lots of English and Irish haplotype neighbors if they are really Normans.

I initially said, that in most cases, not all, that it is the result of a native family adopting the name. I didn't present it in the black and white manner that you did. If there are distinct L21 clades that indicate Norman ancestry that are also found in Ireland, then I ask that you provide evidence for them. From what little I know of the L21 in Ireland, it seems that it is mostly DF13? I can't remember the exact subclades, but I do remember reading that Continental and Isles L21 are distinct from each other. Thats my main point regarding Norman L21, is there a distinct group found in Northern france that is also found in Ireland? Is there continental derived L21 amongst these Irish families claiming Norman origins? From what I've seen most of it is DF13, which is highly localized to Ireland and the Isles.

You're expanding upon an idea which i mentioned but did not claim to be my general thought on the subject. I never explicitly said that I believed that the French normans were primarily the descendants of Cornish and Welsh britons. I asked you how many of them are. I quoted you in saying that French L21 in Normandy doesn't have any haplotype neighbors. I didn't do at all what you said in your closing paragraph. I said that it is very unlikely that L21 would represent true Northmen, as in the actual Scandinavians who settled there. I never said L21 wasn't present in Normandy and that the "Normans" couldn't have brought it with them. I said that genetic impact (Of Norman derived L21) appears to be minimal and I am basing that off of the high amount of DF13 derived sub clades in Ireland and the lack of those specific to the continent.

Here is what you said and what I quoted you on.. "Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all."

I'm assuming that you're including those specific to Normandy?

I apologize for any confusion.

Dubhthach
10-23-2013, 05:59 PM
It's important to point out that the Normans in Ireland are really "Cambro-Normans" the leading lights all been the sons of mixed marriages of Welsh women and "Norman's" who were marchers in Wales. The bulk of their followers were Welsh. This is why Walsh is the 3rd most common surname in Ireland. It reflects the bulk of the soldiery/archers who arrived with the "Cambro-Norman knights"

In an Irish context there is at least one Irish surname which is anglisced with a "norman twang" eg. Fitzpatrick -> Mac Giolla Phádraig (son of "Giolla Phádraig), there was also Mac Maol Phádraig which is also anglisced nearly totally to Fitzpatrick.

What's also important to note is that after the colony began to falter in the 14th century that a widespread "Gaelic Reconquista" happened, not only did native lordships win back territoriy but you see a process of Gaelicisation occuring among the "Norman lords", in most cases they switched from speaking French to Irish.

A prime eample is "Gearóid Iarla" (Earl Gerald) eg. Gerald FitzMaurice FitzGerald (1335–1398) 3rd Earl of Desmond, who wrote poetry both in Irish and Norman-French. He became so "native" that there is a story connecting him to the pre-christian goddess Áine.


n local legend, Gerald was romantically linked with the goddess Áine,[12] a legend which drew upon a pre-existing local Celtic legend about liaisons between Áine and the King of Munster, Ailill Aulom,[12] but updated it with themes drawn from the Francophone courtly love poetry of Continental Europe,[12][13] in particular the motif of the man who falls in love with a swan maiden.[14][12] The Geraldine claim to an association with Áine represents an extreme degree of Gaelicisation.

Going on updated Brabant project results which show L21+ at 8.9% in Belgium it wouldn't surprise me if it's higher in Normandy.

-Paul
(DF41+)

GTC
10-23-2013, 10:30 PM
As Yorkie used to say on DNA-Forums, probably the best way to get an Anglo-Norman Y-DNA signature is to test the English aristocracy among whom remnants of the conquerors remain. However, good luck with that! In fact good luck getting past the front gate and the hounds!

TigerMW
10-23-2013, 11:06 PM
It's important to point out that the Normans in Ireland are really "Cambro-Normans" the leading lights all been the sons of mixed marriages of Welsh women and "Norman's" who were marchers in Wales. The bulk of their followers were Welsh. This is why Walsh is the 3rd most common surname in Ireland. It reflects the bulk of the soldiery/archers who arrived with the "Cambro-Norman knights"...

Paul, I was a bit confused by the term "Anglo-Norman" in some readings I have from 18th century books about Irish family history. These were people I'd now call Cambro-Norman, but they actually called themselves Anglo-Norman. There was no mention of any kind of a Cambro-Norman. I found out later this is just how historians have treated this.

Some historians prefer this term [Cambro-Norman] over Anglo-Norman for the Normans who invaded Ireland after 1170 since many of them originated in Wales. However, the term is anachronistic. Contemporary Irish accounts of this period simply called the incomers Saxain, which means 'Saxon', i.e., 'English' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambro-Norman
Anachronistic... as we can see, it's a challenge to define what a Norman is and get agreement.

I actually think "Welsh-Norman" is a better term for the invaders of Ireland. Everyone would understand that without having to know the Romans called Wales "Cambria". So, I agree that Cambro-Norman is a better term in Ireland than Anglo-Norman but I actually think Welsh-Norman is better yet.

On the other point, I agree there is no doubt that there were many Welsh archers in the Cambro-Norman invasionary forces. However, as noted, even the knights were a mixed breed. The first two recorded Walsh's of Ireland were knights, Philip and David. Why not? They probably shared a g/grandmother with many of the French-like named leaders in the invasions, including the King Henry I's illegitimate grandson (father was). Much of the leadership was tied to the "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" - Nest ferch Rhys (John Davies, in "A History of Wales").

Some of these Cambro-Norman folks probably had Flemish or Breton lineages anyway. I'd be surprised if no Anglo-Saxon lineages made the cut. Maybe not, they may have been down and out at time.

rms2
10-24-2013, 12:32 AM
What I objected to, and still object to, is the repeated assertion, unsupported by any evidence, that, in general, L21+ Irishmen with supposed Norman surnames and claims of Norman ancestry must surely be the descendants of Irish natives who merely adopted Norman surnames. That assertion was repeated more than once. It was based, it seems to me, on the fact that there is a lot of L21 in Ireland, which, of course, is an understatement, and that therefore Norman y-dna would have to be something else.

I pointed out the fact that L21 is quite frequent in Normandy. That being the case, the mere fact that an Irishman with an allegedly Norman surname and a claim of Norman ancestry is L21+ does not mean his claim is false and that his y-dna ancestors were "natives" and not Normans.

Here's an analogy. Suppose you have a man with a Swedish surname who lives in Norway and whose family has lived in Norway a long time but who claims his family originally came over from Sweden. He can't, however, prove his claim of Swedish ancestry. He takes a y-dna test and turns out to be I-M253. Do you dismiss his claim because there is a lot of I-M253 in Norway, so obviously his ancestors were native Norwegians? What about the fact that there is also a lot of I-M253 in Sweden?

It is ridiculous to demand proof of a specifically "Norman" clade of L21 in order to prove that the L21 in Normandy is really Norman or that some of the L21 in the Isles is Norman. That is purposely setting an impossible standard in order to appear to have made a point.

It is a fact that L21 is frequent in Normandy. That being the case, it is not only possible but very likely that at least some, and probably many, of the Normans in William's conquering army were L21+. It is even more likely that many of those in the Breton contingent of his army were L21+.

I don't see how anyone could make a convincing case otherwise.

Joe B
10-24-2013, 05:29 AM
Is there a connection between the Normans and uncommon R-Z2103 (L23xL51) in in the British Isles? Or am I making too much out of what territories the Normans controlled around the Mediterranean where R-Z2103 in easier to find?

The Blair DNA project (http://blairdna.com/), one of the ISOGG surname projects (http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Blair_DNA_Project), is one of the better surname projects. The introduction claims a Norman origin.

The BLAIR surname, unlike many others, has a fairly well established origin. Although there is some question as to who was the "First Blair", it is generally accepted that he was an heir of Jean Francois, a Norman, granted Barony of Blare by King William, between 1165 and 1200.
Group one (http://blairdna.com/group01.html) looks like R-Z2103 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1479-Z2103-%28R1b-P25-gt-L389-gt-P297-gt-M269-gt-L23-gt-Z2103%29-amp-Z2105) (R1b1a2a2) or the old L23* group and is the largest group within the Blair Surname project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/blair/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). R-Z2103 is not very common in the isles but does benefit from the isles surname projects.

Group 1 (Blair of Blair descendants) consists of 56 participants with 42 different oldest known ancestors. This group appears to share a common ancestor with the only known descendant of the original Blair of Blair.
Some of the other surnames in FTDNA projects that seem to be close to the Blair (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/blair/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) strs are Bennett, (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/bennett/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) Carr (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/carr/default.aspx?section=ycolorized), and Robinson (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/robinson/default.aspx?section=ycolorized).
Looking at a map from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans) of the Norman expansion by 1130, would it be reasonable to suspect the Normans for some of the R-Z2103 in the UK and Ireland?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Normannen.png/800px-Normannen.png

Dubhthach
10-24-2013, 10:09 AM
Paul, I was a bit confused by the term "Anglo-Norman" in some readings I have from 18th century books about Irish family history. These were people I'd now call Cambro-Norman, but they actually called themselves Anglo-Norman. There was no mention of any kind of a Cambro-Norman. I found out later this is just how historians have treated this.

Some historians prefer this term [Cambro-Norman] over Anglo-Norman for the Normans who invaded Ireland after 1170 since many of them originated in Wales. However, the term is anachronistic. Contemporary Irish accounts of this period simply called the incomers Saxain, which means 'Saxon', i.e., 'English' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambro-Norman
Anachronistic... as we can see, it's a challenge to define what a Norman is and get agreement.

I actually think "Welsh-Norman" is a better term for the invaders of Ireland. Everyone would understand that without having to know the Romans called Wales "Cambria". So, I agree that Cambro-Norman is a better term in Ireland than Anglo-Norman but I actually think Welsh-Norman is better yet.

On the other point, I agree there is no doubt that there were many Welsh archers in the Cambro-Norman invasionary forces. However, as noted, even the knights were a mixed breed. The first two recorded Walsh's of Ireland were knights, Philip and David. Why not? They probably shared a g/grandmother with many of the French-like named leaders in the invasions, including the King Henry I's illegitimate grandson (father was). Much of the leadership was tied to the "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" - Nest ferch Rhys (John Davies, in "A History of Wales").

Some of these Cambro-Norman folks probably had Flemish or Breton lineages anyway. I'd be surprised if no Anglo-Saxon lineages made the cut. Maybe not, they may have been down and out at time.

Sure the term only dates to mid 20th century, however it's the default term used by professional historians writing in the field today. It's the default term for example used by academics in the relevant departments of Medieval History here in Ireland.

As for "Saxain" in reality for most of medieval period the term used is Gall (Gaill = plural). In this case there's a switch from it been used exclusivily for those of Hiberno-Norse origin to those who could be termed "Hiberno-Norman" during the 13th century (by which stage most norman lords were several generations Irish on their matrilineal lines -- eg. they married alot of native-Irish nobility).

The intermarriage is one of main reasons why you end up with Gaelicising of these lords. If anything it's an interesting to compare the process to what happened in Normandy. We know that there was obviously a "Norman" (Norse) elite who intermarried and became "More French then the French themselves" (to rephrase an Irish expression).

Of course process has happened earlier as well with the Norse, thence the arising of groups such as the "Gall-Ghaeil".

Anyways a funny note on the word "Gall" in Irish it obviously means "foreginer" it's original meaning though means "someone from France" (eg. Gaul), deriving from the latin Gallus (a Gaul). Quite appropriate in a sense that Cambro-Normans were thus known by the term later given it's origin!

-Paul
(DF41+)

AJL
10-24-2013, 02:13 PM
would it be reasonable to suspect the Normans for some of the R-Z2103 in the UK and Ireland?

It would be good to get as precise a map as possible of the Z2103 in Britain. It might correspond to areas with Roman soldiers, say.

Gray Fox
10-24-2013, 02:22 PM
What I objected to, and still object to, is the repeated assertion, unsupported by any evidence, that, in general, L21+ Irishmen with supposed Norman surnames and claims of Norman ancestry must surely be the descendants of Irish natives who merely adopted Norman surnames. That assertion was repeated more than once. It was based, it seems to me, on the fact that there is a lot of L21 in Ireland, which, of course, is an understatement, and that therefore Norman y-dna would have to be something else.

I pointed out the fact that L21 is quite frequent in Normandy. That being the case, the mere fact that an Irishman with an allegedly Norman surname and a claim of Norman ancestry is L21+ does not mean his claim is false and that his y-dna ancestors were "natives" and not Normans.

Here's an analogy. Suppose you have a man with a Swedish surname who lives in Norway and whose family has lived in Norway a long time but who claims his family originally came over from Sweden. He can't, however, prove his claim of Swedish ancestry. He takes a y-dna test and turns out to be I-M253. Do you dismiss his claim because there is a lot of I-M253 in Norway, so obviously his ancestors were native Norwegians? What about the fact that there is also a lot of I-M253 in Sweden?

It is ridiculous to demand proof of a specifically "Norman" clade of L21 in order to prove that the L21 in Normandy is really Norman or that some of the L21 in the Isles is Norman. That is purposely setting an impossible standard in order to appear to have made a point.

It is a fact that L21 is frequent in Normandy. That being the case, it is not only possible but very likely that at least some, and probably many, of the Normans in William's conquering army were L21+. It is even more likely that many of those in the Breton contingent of his army were L21+.

I don't see how anyone could make a convincing case otherwise.

There you go again with your over exaggerations and misinterpretation of what I actually said. I said that in most cases they appear to be Natives who adopted a prestigious name. You still haven't answered my question, are these Hiberno/Cambro/ Norman Irish families similar to those in Ireland? Or do they better mirror the French examples? Which as you have claimed seem to be lacking in neigboring haplotypes? From what I've read, it appears to me that there is a difference in Continental L21 and Irish derived.. If I'm mistaken please correct me. If this is the case, it would seem that you could distinguish between a haplotype that has been present in one location for a good deal of time versus one that has only recently arrived. I'm not saying that his forces didn't carry a lot of L21, surely they did if he had gathered large troops from Brittany. I'm only asking how can you tell what L21 was brought from where? Seems William amassed a lot of troops from England, Scotland and Wales too, all of these places are known for their high amounts of L21, who's to say one of the Irishman carrying a Norman surname isn't ultimately derived from one of these places?? From what mike has said it seems more than difficult in discerning where exactly a lot of the L21 that may have joined up with William came from. So how can you be so sure of your own claim that it is unsound to assume that many of those families in Ireland claiming Norman origins might not have come directly from Normandy/Brittany?

Aren't many of these Norman surnames derived from Lords and Knights who were just as likely to have belonged to a Scandinavian haplo? Seems that from what I understand of surnames, that many people would simply adopt the name of their chieftain or lord, while often times having no connection to the Y-chromosome of the original bearers.

We can argue this back and forth all day, but when it comes down to it, neither of us can definitively prove the other wrong. So I'll gracefully bow out of the argument.

Joe B
10-24-2013, 06:55 PM
It would be good to get as precise a map as possible of the Z2103 in Britain. It might correspond to areas with Roman soldiers, say.
I've started a new thread to address the larger issue of R-Z2103 in Western Europe.
R-Z2103 & Early R1b, an Enigma of Western Europe (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1501-R-Z2103-amp-Early-R1b-an-Enigma-of-Western-Europe&p=17390#post17390)
I'm not sure how big the legacy of the Romans was on Britain's genetics. Seems to me that 2000 years would lead to a larger presence of R-Z2103 in the Isles. That's why the Normans seem like another good candidate for introducing R-Z2103, 1000 years later.

rms2
10-25-2013, 01:24 AM
There you go again with your over exaggerations and misinterpretation of what I actually said . . .

No, you said that in general L21+ Irishmen with Norman surnames were natives who merely adopted the surname. I can pull the quote(s) if you would like. No exaggeration. You made the same point more than once.

AJL
10-25-2013, 01:54 AM
Let's keep this civil please.

Gray Fox
10-25-2013, 09:55 AM
No, you said that in general L21+ Irishmen with Norman surnames were natives who merely adopted the surname. I can pull the quote(s) if you would like. No exaggeration. You made the same point more than once.

Wow, just let it go. I know what I said and you took it the wrong way. That's all I have left to say on the matter.

rms2
10-25-2013, 10:50 AM
Wow, just let it go. I know what I said and you took it the wrong way. That's all I have left to say on the matter.

Nope. I know what you wrote, and I read pretty well. But I am glad that's all you have left to say.

AJL
10-25-2013, 04:35 PM
rms2, whether you disagree with Sam_Isaak or not you should move on, as he has been attempting to do -- there's nothing to be gained in having the last word. Consider this an informal warning, the next warning will be of a more formal nature.

rms2
10-26-2013, 02:51 PM
rms2, whether you disagree with Sam_Isaak or not you should move on, as he has been attempting to do -- there's nothing to be gained in having the last word. Consider this an informal warning, the next warning will be of a more formal nature.

Thanks, I'll move on now . . . to a different venue. My posts have been civil, his have not. You folks are too quick on the trigger for me.

You could have sent me a private message to convey what you wanted to say instead of publicly rebuking me. Low class; I don't need this.

alan
10-26-2013, 04:01 PM
I cannot see what offence Rich is guilty of there. He just disagreed with a point. No personal attack. No flaming etc. I dont think that rebuke was justified and certainly not worth losing a good man on this site over. I personally dont think he should have been rebuked publically for what seems like no offense at all.


rms2, whether you disagree with Sam_Isaak or not you should move on, as he has been attempting to do -- there's nothing to be gained in having the last word. Consider this an informal warning, the next warning will be of a more formal nature.

AJL
10-26-2013, 05:21 PM
I cannot see what offence Rich is guilty of there. He just disagreed with a point. No personal attack. No flaming etc. I dont think that rebuke was justified and certainly not worth losing a good man on this site over. I personally dont think he should have been rebuked publically for what seems like no offense at all.

The issue here is not who is right. Everyone is bound by the rules here, and to keep public order, one must be seen to be keeping public order. If other forum users see that fractiousness carries no consequences, they are more likely to cause trouble. It is standard practice in forums to keep order by public posts when warranted, and personal message when warranted. This seemed like a situation where a public message would be more useful, since Sam_Isaak was also very close to receiving a warning.

Look at the trail of posts. I had previously asked both users to stop attacking each other once. Both wanted to get the last shot in. Then I cautioned both parties again. At that point Sam_Isaak let it go but rms2 didn't. At a certain point we do have to take concrete measures to restore order, rather than repeat "Now, now" endlessly.

rms2
10-26-2013, 11:25 PM
There were no "attacks" from me. Read my posts. Sam_Isaack couldn't leave things alone without a Parthian shot at me each time.

But have it your own way. You were wrong, and I don't participate in these kinds of forums to experience arbitrary abuse. I can get that from my own government anytime, thanks.

I'll go elsewhere. I know that doesn't matter to anyone but me, but so be it.

TigerMW
10-26-2013, 11:59 PM
I don't really trust surnames in and of themselves so as I've said, I have no doubt surnames were adopted in one way or another in many lineages. However, I wanted to try to answer this question.


... From what I've read, it appears to me that there is a difference in Continental L21 and Irish derived..

Just to be clear on this aspect, I'd say the answer is no, generally speaking. Every case is different and the timing of the relationship (TMRCAs) are critical. It's hard to say what was really pre-Roman "Irish L21", Roman Era "Irish L21", Anglo Era "Irish L21, and only modern "Irish L21", etc. The answer depends on the point in time. A good example is M222. Most think of it that the Northwest Irish haplotype is as Irish as can be, and it very well could be... however, it is quite likely, by way of looking at brother and uncle subclades, that M222 didn't originate in Ireland. I would guess somewhere in England, but it could have just as easily been Brittany as England. So what? it still comes back to a question of when which is I why think assigning ethnicities to ancient haplogroups is a bit risky. There were multiple migrations and exchanges in both directions across the Irish Sea, English Channel, and I would add the North Sea, too.

Gray Fox
10-27-2013, 01:19 PM
Moving right along, I spoke with my Breton "cousin" and he mentioned this regarding my Hargis ancestors..

"It seems the Hargis family came to England in 1522, before coming their family name was Harges/Hargès and came from Normandy -- although this name sounds more southern French than Norman. The name could be Arges / d'Arges or even Hargues/Harguès, Argues/Arguès, d'Argues/d'Hargues, Arjes/ Harjes, Arc/d'Arc (as the French add and remove Hs randomly since we do not pronouce them)... anyways Argés is a Spanish city... if they would have move from there to France it makes sense as a family name.

Argues is also a French city: Argues, Baugy, France -- Joan of Arc is also called "Jeanne d'Argues", dite la Pucelle d'Orléans in ancient text.
it could be d'Argouges from Normandy too

Since the first one who moved to England came from Normandy in 1522 I would think the real name was d'Argouges.

Anyways 2 knights came also along with William the Conqueror in 1066:

D'Argouges

d'Argues Guillaume"

So I can understand the families original belief that they arrived to England via William. Though I wonder if their arrival to England is a bit too early to be considered Huguenot?

Baltimore1937
11-01-2013, 07:37 AM
I have a William Guillaume d'Arques in my putative fanciful mythological maternal line. Born about 1014 in Arques-la-Bataille, Haute-Normandie; died in Yorkshire 1086. That's from entries on Ancestry.

Gray Fox
11-01-2013, 04:41 PM
I have a William Guillaume d'Arques in my putative fanciful mythological maternal line. Born about 1014 in Arques-la-Bataille, Haute-Normandie; died in Yorkshire 1086. That's from entries on Ancestry.

Cool! I was starting think I was the only person on here with this potential connection. You're Marmaduke from the old dna-forums, right?

Baltimore1937
11-02-2013, 01:36 AM
Cool! I was starting think I was the only person on here with this potential connection. You're Marmaduke from the old dna-forums, right?

No. I'm just a little nobody. Which is one reason I started my family tree research in the first place. Surely there must be one or more persons in my tree who were worth something (ha ha). As for my Normandy maternal line, it depends on who really was Joan Plantagenet's mom. She was the illegitimate daughter of King John (before he became king). However, my U5 haplotype still looks Norman, regardless of who she was. King John spent a lot of time in France/Normandy. And he was the Count of Mortain, which is located close to where my putative female ancestress as Joan's mom (Clemence de Fougeres) lived.

avalon
11-08-2013, 08:58 PM
Paul, I was a bit confused by the term "Anglo-Norman" in some readings I have from 18th century books about Irish family history. These were people I'd now call Cambro-Norman, but they actually called themselves Anglo-Norman. There was no mention of any kind of a Cambro-Norman. I found out later this is just how historians have treated this.

Some historians prefer this term [Cambro-Norman] over Anglo-Norman for the Normans who invaded Ireland after 1170 since many of them originated in Wales. However, the term is anachronistic. Contemporary Irish accounts of this period simply called the incomers Saxain, which means 'Saxon', i.e., 'English' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambro-Norman
Anachronistic... as we can see, it's a challenge to define what a Norman is and get agreement.

I actually think "Welsh-Norman" is a better term for the invaders of Ireland. Everyone would understand that without having to know the Romans called Wales "Cambria". So, I agree that Cambro-Norman is a better term in Ireland than Anglo-Norman but I actually think Welsh-Norman is better yet.

On the other point, I agree there is no doubt that there were many Welsh archers in the Cambro-Norman invasionary forces. However, as noted, even the knights were a mixed breed. The first two recorded Walsh's of Ireland were knights, Philip and David. Why not? They probably shared a g/grandmother with many of the French-like named leaders in the invasions, including the King Henry I's illegitimate grandson (father was). Much of the leadership was tied to the "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" - Nest ferch Rhys (John Davies, in "A History of Wales").

Some of these Cambro-Norman folks probably had Flemish or Breton lineages anyway. I'd be surprised if no Anglo-Saxon lineages made the cut. Maybe not, they may have been down and out at time.

From a Welsh perspective I would prefer to characterise the invasion of Ireland as a Norman one that was launched from Wales. As this site shows http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/invasion.htm the leaders and knights who invaded Ireland were almost entirely Anglo-Normans or Flemish. True, a few of the leaders were quite closely related and were descended from the Welsh princess Nest ferch Rhys, but it is important to remember that their Y-DNA would have been Norman not Native Welsh. And these were men whose culture and ancestry were more Norman than Welsh.

The rootsweb site also points out that many of the adventurers who invaded Ireland had Flemish and English names. The Pembrokeshire families that are mentioned are all English/Flemish surnames not Welsh. The Norman marcher lords and their followers were very well established in parts of South Wales at this time but the Native Welsh kept themselves separate.

I think the best evidence for Native Welsh men crossing over to Ireland was in Gerald of Wales's account of 300 archers and foot soldiers described as "the flower and youth of Wales," but this is not conclusive to my mind and doesn't make sense in the context of the times - a segregated frontier society in which Welsh and Anglo-Norman generally didn't mix.

I guess the key question is that if Irish men with the name "Walsh" show close genetic matches with Welsh men with Welsh surnames then we could safely say that some amount of Native Welsh DNA crossed over to Ireland in the 12th century?

Gray Fox
11-08-2013, 09:10 PM
No. I'm just a little nobody. Which is one reason I started my family tree research in the first place. Surely there must be one or more persons in my tree who were worth something (ha ha). As for my Normandy maternal line, it depends on who really was Joan Plantagenet's mom. She was the illegitimate daughter of King John (before he became king). However, my U5 haplotype still looks Norman, regardless of who she was. King John spent a lot of time in France/Normandy. And he was the Count of Mortain, which is located close to where my putative female ancestress as Joan's mom (Clemence de Fougeres) lived.

Interesting theory! My Breton cousin is also potentially connected to this family. From what he has told me, his Grandmother is a "Argouges" by her fathers side.. So we may be cousins through that line as well. Small world!

TigerMW
11-08-2013, 09:41 PM
From a Welsh perspective I would prefer to characterise the invasion of Ireland as a Norman one that was launched from Wales.
Why? The historians don't classify it that way and the invasionary force and following settlements probably had more Welsh blood than Norman blood, which was mixed anyway. I would say that is almost certainly the case.


As this site shows http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/invasion.htm the leaders and knights who invaded Ireland were almost entirely Anglo-Normans or Flemish. True, a few of the leaders were quite closely related and were descended from the Welsh princess Nest ferch Rhys,
A "few leaders" is an understatement. Regardless of the surname, almost all of the invasion leadership had Welsh blood mixed in except for Strongbow himself, who later married an Irish princess. Nest is correctly termed by historians as the "Queen bee of the Cambro-Norman swarm."


but it is important to remember that their Y-DNA would have been Norman not Native Welsh. And these were men whose culture and ancestry were more Norman than Welsh. It could be that most of the leadership was of Norman Y DNA and I would expect the leadership to be. I don't think the historians coined the word "Cambro-Norman" by examining or considering Y DNA only though.


The rootsweb site also points out that many of the adventurers who invaded Ireland had Flemish and English names. The Pembrokeshire families that are mentioned are all English/Flemish surnames not Welsh. The Norman marcher lords and their followers were very well established in parts of South Wales at this time but the Native Welsh kept themselves separate.

I think the best evidence for Native Welsh men crossing over to Ireland was in Gerald of Wales's account of 300 archers and foot soldiers described as "the flower and youth of Wales," but this is not conclusive to my mind and doesn't make sense in the context of the times - a segregated frontier society in which Welsh and Anglo-Norman generally didn't mix. You cite a web site to support some of your ideas and then don't look much deeper than the surnames. Then you disagree with information that the web site aggregated. That web site is authored by my third cousin.

Some social strata of Welsh may have been segregated but the Normans were well known for intermarrying. It is well documented at the time, not after the fact, that Norman and Welsh leadership intermarried and/or interbred.


I guess the key question is that if Irish men with the name "Walsh" show close genetic matches with Welsh men with Welsh surnames then we could safely say that some amount of Native Welsh DNA crossed over to Ireland in the 12th century? I don't think there is any doubt that a lot of Brythonic speakers' blood came into Ireland, probably on multiple occasions. I'm not sure that the "Walsh" surname is more significant than any of the others so I don't know why that is a key question. It certainly it would have been one of the surnames in the mix.

Baltimore1937
11-09-2013, 12:54 AM
Interesting theory! My Breton cousin is also potentially connected to this family. From what he has told me, his Grandmother is a "Argouges" by her fathers side.. So we may be cousins through that line as well. Small world!

I keep getting my passwords, etc. mixed up. Whew.

As for Clemence de Fougeres (b.1172 Chateau Fougeres, d.1252 Chester, England) there is not a whole lot of support for her being (future King) John's girl friend. It seems to be a majority opinion that Joan's mom was named Clemence. But that's where agreement ends. Clemence de Fougeres had a couple of legitimate husbands, and offspring. I tentatively traced her maternal line back to a vague source (Danish or via Denmark). This is from entries at Ancestry. My interest is in following my own maternal U5b2b2 line back as far as possible. Anyway, Clemence de Fougeres' maternal line came from a high class lineage in Normandy. She had connections to at least one of the earliest Dukes of Normandy.

avalon
11-09-2013, 04:45 PM
Why? The historians don't classify it that way and the invasionary force and following settlements probably had more Welsh blood than Norman blood, which was mixed anyway. I would say that is almost certainly the case.


A "few leaders" is an understatement. Regardless of the surname, almost all of the invasion leadership had Welsh blood mixed in except for Strongbow himself, who later married an Irish princess. Nest is correctly termed by historians as the "Queen bee of the Cambro-Norman swarm."

It could be that most of the leadership was of Norman Y DNA and I would expect the leadership to be. I don't think the historians coined the word "Cambro-Norman" by examining or considering Y DNA only though.

You cite a web site to support some of your ideas and then don't look much deeper than the surnames. Then you disagree with information that the web site aggregated. That web site is authored by my third cousin.




Well, I can think of some prominent historians who refer/ed to the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland, including Simon Schama and Welsh historian John Edward Lloyd. R.R Davies - "Age of Conquest" is the authority on medieval Wales and he refers to Anglo-Norman invaders, not Cambro-Norman.

As far as I see it, the invasion of 1169 comprised a handful of Norman barons who were closely related and descended from one Welsh princess, Nesta, who appears to have been passed around various Norman lords following the death of her father Rhys ap Tewdwr, as some sort of prized asset. The remainder of their force comprised 100 knights/light cavalry, 150 Flemings and 300 archers and infantry - probably Native Welsh men.

The later 1170 invasion by Strongbow was larger with 1200 men and appears to have been a much more Anglo-Norman affair with large numbers of English infantry. If we look at the rootsweb site I find it very hard to find much evidence of Welsh names amongst the list of adventurers. There are a couple of Walshes but the rest of the names are clearly of Norman, English or Flemish origin, not Welsh. You say I look no further than surnames but aren't they rather central to genetic genealogy?

I must admit, I do not know the details of later Anglo-Norman settlement in Ireland (post invasion) and if there is evidence for Native Welsh men settling there?


Some social strata of Welsh may have been segregated but the Normans were well known for intermarrying. It is well documented at the time, not after the fact, that Norman and Welsh leadership intermarried and/or interbred.

True, but intermarriage was between ruling families. The vast bulk of the Welsh population remained separate from the English throughout medieval times.



I don't think there is any doubt that a lot of Brythonic speakers' blood came into Ireland, probably on multiple occasions. I'm not sure that the "Walsh" surname is more significant than any of the others so I don't know why that is a key question. It certainly it would have been one of the surnames in the mix.

The reason I mentioned Walsh is because it is a common Irish name that supposedly has a Welsh origin. I can't think of any other Irish names that might denote a Welsh origin, can you? If many Native Welsh men did settle in Ireland at this time then I would expect to see close genetic matches with Welsh men with Welsh surnames?

George Chandler
11-09-2013, 07:07 PM
I keep getting my passwords, etc. mixed up. Whew.

As for Clemence de Fougeres (b.1172 Chateau Fougeres, d.1252 Chester, England) there is not a whole lot of support for her being (future King) John's girl friend. It seems to be a majority opinion that Joan's mom was named Clemence. But that's where agreement ends. Clemence de Fougeres had a couple of legitimate husbands, and offspring. I tentatively traced her maternal line back to a vague source (Danish or via Denmark). This is from entries at Ancestry. My interest is in following my own maternal U5b2b2 line back as far as possible. Anyway, Clemence de Fougeres' maternal line came from a high class lineage in Normandy. She had connections to at least one of the earliest Dukes of Normandy.

I would use a lot of caution in terms of paper genealogy (as Mike previously mentioned)..especially when using the Ancestry site unless there are good citations and paperwork that go with it. What is frustrating with the Ancestry tree site is that even if you make a mistake or find some new information once you change your tree data the old information stays on the site for up to a month until they do their updates. So in theory people can be copying bad information for a month. When you get back that far it usually takes thousands of dollars just to get good paperwork on 1 or 2 people and even then you have to prove your line through DNA..as I'm sure you already know.

George

Baltimore1937
11-09-2013, 09:38 PM
I would use a lot of caution in terms of paper genealogy (as Mike previously mentioned)..especially when using the Ancestry site unless there are good citations and paperwork that go with it. What is frustrating with the Ancestry tree site is that even if you make a mistake or find some new information once you change your tree data the old information stays on the site for up to a month until they do their updates. So in theory people can be copying bad information for a month. When you get back that far it usually takes thousands of dollars just to get good paperwork on 1 or 2 people and even then you have to prove your line through DNA..as I'm sure you already know.

George

I'm familiar with all those pitfalls. But I sort of create my own mythology until better info comes along. I made a research tree just for Clemence de Fougeres. She existed alright. The only question being whether or not my direct maternal line is connected. She has solid trees of her own, by others. But none of them claimed that she had King John's illegitimate daughter Joan as a teenager. I also have a research tree for the (early) Danish royal family and their connections. That one is public at Ancestry, currently. It radiates in all directions, but has relatively little about the Danish royals. My U5b2b2 seems to be teasingly pointing at Viking Age Sweden. But I just can't seem to get there from here. I need a time machine.

TigerMW
11-10-2013, 12:13 AM
Well, I can think of some prominent historians who refer/ed to the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland, including Simon Schama and Welsh historian John Edward Lloyd. R.R Davies - "Age of Conquest" is the authority on medieval Wales and he refers to Anglo-Norman invaders, not Cambro-Norman...
I'm okay with the use of the term "Anglo-Normans", it's just that Paul/Dubthach had presented earlier in this thread that "Cambro-Norman" is the term being used currently as most appropriate.

We are repeating the conversation with back on post #40 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1454-The-Normans&p=17236&viewfull=1#post17236) and post #45 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1454-The-Normans&p=17343&viewfull=1#post17343).

I think I quoted this earlier from Wikipeidia,
"Cambro-Normans were Norman knights who settled in southern Wales after the Norman conquest of England in 1066. Some historians prefer this term over Anglo-Norman for the Normans who invaded Ireland after 1170 since many of them originated in Wales. However, the term is anachronistic..."

I have found an old family history book where people who had Welsh-like surnames called themselves Anglo-Normans. At first I was puzzled at this, but I can see it was just a matter of the semantics of the time.


Sure the term ["Cambro-Norman"] only dates to mid 20th century, however it's the default term used by professional historians writing in the field today. It's the default term for example used by academics in the relevant departments of Medieval History here in Ireland.

Anglecynn
11-10-2013, 12:46 AM
I find it interesting that there were Normans along the Welsh Marches in the 1050s, invited there by Edward the Confessor. I think the first Norman castle in Britain was built in 1051 or thereabouts. I'll need to check the books when i return home then i can provide more information, although i guess you guys already know it, you might not have this particular author's book.

TigerMW
11-10-2013, 01:01 AM
Some social strata of Welsh may have been segregated but the Normans were well known for intermarrying. It is well documented at the time, not after the fact, that Norman and Welsh leadership intermarried and/or interbred.


.... As far as I see it, the invasion of 1169....
You say I look no further than surnames but aren't they rather central to genetic genealogy?

I must admit, I do not know the details of later Anglo-Norman settlement in Ireland (post invasion) and if there is evidence for Native Welsh men settling there?
....
True, but intermarriage was between ruling families
...
The reason I mentioned Walsh is because it is a common Irish name that supposedly has a Welsh origin. I can't think of any other Irish names that might denote a Welsh origin, can you? If many Native Welsh men did settle in Ireland at this time then I would expect to see close genetic matches with Welsh men with Welsh surnames?

I agree that genetic genealogy is of concern on this forum, but I'm not sure that genealogical records and surnames are that useful going all the way back to the period we are discussing. Surnames weren't even well fixed then.

I don't think the surnames will be quite as helpful in looking at a timeframe, i.e. 12th century, when surnames were not fixed yet. Among surnames in Ireland, regardless of when they become fixed, that have been attribute to Welsh origins or Welsh/Cambro-Norman origins include Griffith, Joyce, Davis, Howell, Walsh, Williams, Walsh. I'm not trying to create an exhaustive list. We can also discuss the entymology of surnames but I think that is largely a moot point, at least as far as many of these folks since they didn't have surnames. The rootsweb web site you are citing also is not an exhaustive list, but that is a moot point since surnames were not permanently affixed yet for the most part.

There is genetic evidence that a lot of modern Irish descendants have Welsh or Old Briton of some type in them.

TigerMW
11-10-2013, 01:33 AM
... The later 1170 invasion by Strongbow was larger with 1200 men and appears to have been a much more Anglo-Norman affair with large numbers of English infantry. If we look at the rootsweb site I find it very hard to find much evidence of Welsh names amongst the list of adventurers. There are a couple of Walshes but the rest of the names are clearly of Norman, English or Flemish origin, not Welsh. ...

There were multiple groups invading. Robert FitzStephen led one of the early ones as did Maurice Pendergrast. Richard de Clare (Strongbow) did not actually come until later. I suppose we should also consider that King Henry I showed up with a large force in 1171 but Henry's force wouldn't be considered Cambro-Norman. umm.... I can see why Welsh launching group should be termed Cambro-Norman, because they had an additional mix beyond what Henry's group would have been, so I could see better usage of the term Anglo-Norman for Henry's force while Cambro-Norman for de Clare's.

I think you have to a be a little careful about assigning ethnicities when intermarriage was involved. First, the Normans contained only a remnant of the old "Norse"-man in them by this time, via their path into Normandy, then England and then Wales, before Ireland. They had already mixed with Bretons, Gauls, Flemings, Franks and finally English by the time they got to Wales. There was over 100 years between the Battle of Hastings and the beginning of the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland. I believe the first well-known half-Norman/half-Welshman would have been Henry FitzHenry, born about 1100 AD. His mother was Nest and father was King Henry I. Nest's grandchildren and probably some great great children as well as other various relation were probably key parts of the Cambro-Norman elite mix.

The beautiful Nest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_ferch_Rhys) is quite a character in this play. Having multiple husbands and affairs and possibly subject to rape. Grandson Gerald of Wales wrote of her with somewhat of uneasiness, I think. He was a churchman but my interpretation of his writings about her is that she was manipulative... Cleopatra-like, so to speak. Historians also called her "Helen of Wales" so there is plenty more to the story. Ultimately, we can count Elizabeth I and John F. Kennedy among her descendants. Nest's father was Rhys ap Tewdwr. This is the blood leading to the Tudor Dynasty.

Baltimore1937
11-10-2013, 05:33 AM
At one point in my maternal tree building, I had Richard "Strongbow" de Clare, earl of Pembroke. He married Eva of Leinster (Ireland). Then I discovered I made a mistake, and I erased all of that branch. Now his line is creeping back indirectly. And I wish I had kept my earlier information. From the present perspective, it is only indirect connections (in-law or the other wife, etc). For example, Isabel Marshall, daughter of Sir William Marshall, married King John's son Richard, 1st earl of Cornwall. Isabel's mom, Isabel de Clare, was the daughter of Strongbow himself. Richard Plantagenet (above) is an ancestor on isabel Cornwall's paternal line. I have Isabel Cornwall on my direct maternal line. I think there is another way Strongbow indirectly connects, but that's what I erased before. That came into a Le Strange family sibling of a Le Strange on my maternal line.

avalon
11-10-2013, 09:25 PM
There were multiple groups invading. Robert FitzStephen led one of the early ones as did Maurice Pendergrast. Richard de Clare (Strongbow) did not actually come until later. I suppose we should also consider that King Henry I showed up with a large force in 1171 but Henry's force wouldn't be considered Cambro-Norman. umm.... I can see why Welsh launching group should be termed Cambro-Norman, because they had an additional mix beyond what Henry's group would have been, so I could see better usage of the term Anglo-Norman for Henry's force while Cambro-Norman for de Clare's.

I think you have to a be a little careful about assigning ethnicities when intermarriage was involved. First, the Normans contained only a remnant of the old "Norse"-man in them by this time, via their path into Normandy, then England and then Wales, before Ireland. They had already mixed with Bretons, Gauls, Flemings, Franks and finally English by the time they got to Wales. There was over 100 years between the Battle of Hastings and the beginning of the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland. I believe the first well-known half-Norman/half-Welshman would have been Henry FitzHenry, born about 1100 AD. His mother was Nest and father was King Henry I. Nest's grandchildren and probably some great great children as well as other various relation were probably key parts of the Cambro-Norman elite mix.

The beautiful Nest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest_ferch_Rhys) is quite a character in this play. Having multiple husbands and affairs and possibly subject to rape. Grandson Gerald of Wales wrote of her with somewhat of uneasiness, I think. He was a churchman but my interpretation of his writings about her is that she was manipulative... Cleopatra-like, so to speak. Historians also called her "Helen of Wales" so there is plenty more to the story. Ultimately, we can count Elizabeth I and John F. Kennedy among her descendants. Nest's father was Rhys ap Tewdwr. This is the blood leading to the Tudor Dynasty.

I think it's fair to say that the invaders of Ireland 1169-1171 were a mixed bunch. Welsh, English, Flemings and of course Normans - and I agree that the Normans themselves by this point were a hot potch of ethnicities. I also agree that in the 12th century we have a problem with surnames not always being fixed. But, in the case of Wales, the patronymic naming system was deeply rooted in Welsh culture and we see very distinctive Welsh names such as Llewelyn, Gruffydd, Hwyel, Madog, Owain, Dafydd, Rhys, Bleddyn, Cadfael, etc. Welsh pedigrees were long lasting but I don't see much evidence of them amongst the list of invaders who went to Ireland.

One problem we do have, is that during this period of history the Welsh native sources are quite scarce so we do have to rely on the account of Gerald of Wales, who as we know, was grandson of Nesta and closely related to the likes of FitzStephen and FitzGerald. There is no doubt that by 1169 the Anglo-Normans had become firmly entrenched in lowland South Wales from Chepstow and Monmouth in the east to the Vale of Glamorgan, Gower and Pembrokeshire in the west.

You are right that by 1169 a Cambro-Norman society had developed in some parts of South Wales but generally speaking the valleys and uplands remained the refuge of the native and hostile Welsh. No doubt there were some "friendly" Welsh who were assimilated in to the Anglo-Norman lowland manorial system in and around the major Norman castles. I presume it was from these friendlies that the Welsh archers were recruited. On the other hand though, in Southern Pembrokeshire in the early 1100s, the Brut y Tywysogion records the native Welsh as having been expelled from the area to make way for the Anglo-Flemish colony that was to dominate Southern Pembrokeshire thereafter. So there was much hostility between Welsh and English at this stage as well. Indeed, one of the reasons that Robert FitzStephen went to Ireland was that he had fallen foul of Rhys ap Gruffydd, Lord of Deheubarth.

It is interesting that the places in South Wales that the Normans took control of were also the most Romanised areas a thousand years earlier - mainly the southern coastal strip.

TigerMW
11-10-2013, 09:53 PM
I think it's fair to say that the invaders of Ireland 1169-1171 were a mixed bunch. Welsh, English, Flemings and of course Normans - and I agree that the Normans themselves by this point were a hot potch of ethnicities. I also agree that in the 12th century we have a problem with surnames not always being fixed. But, in the case of Wales, the patronymic naming system was deeply rooted in Welsh culture and we see very distinctive Welsh names such as Llewelyn, Gruffydd, Hwyel, Madog, Owain, Dafydd, Rhys, Bleddyn, Cadfael, etc. Welsh pedigrees were long lasting but I don't see much evidence of them amongst the list of invaders who went to Ireland.
I agree that the invaders were a mixed bunch and that the Normans themselves were a mixed bunch.

1) Those lists are not exhaustive so you can only expect the to find the leadership and most famous people on them.
2) The infantry and archers don't seem to have been identified by name, period.
3) The Welsh were slow at fixing surnames anyway. We are talking about the 12th century and we see the Welsh weren't big on fixing surnames yet.
"Fixed family names were adopted in Wales from the 15th century onwards", Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_surnames).


So there was much hostility between Welsh and English at this stage as well. Indeed, one of the reasons that Robert FitzStephen went to Ireland was that he had fallen foul of Rhys ap Gruffydd, Lord of Deheubarth.... Why are you describing this as a Welsh vs. English issue and then giving an example of a Welsh prince, Rhys ap Gruffyd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_ap_Gruffydd) and FitzStephen, who was half-Welsh/half-Norman(probably of Breton origin)?

Perhaps I'm confused with how you are defining "English". You also mentioned earlier that you thought there were English people in the invasion forces. I would expect some, but prior to King Henry's arrival, I had not read of a heavy English presence with Richard de Clare's conquest.

avalon
11-11-2013, 07:58 PM
I find it interesting that there were Normans along the Welsh Marches in the 1050s, invited there by Edward the Confessor. I think the first Norman castle in Britain was built in 1051 or thereabouts. I'll need to check the books when i return home then i can provide more information, although i guess you guys already know it, you might not have this particular author's book.

That's right, I've read that in a few books. Of course, the Welsh-English border area had been a contested frontier between Saxon and Welsh long before the Normans arrived.

avalon
11-11-2013, 08:58 PM
I agree that the invaders were a mixed bunch and that the Normans themselves were a mixed bunch.

1) Those lists are not exhaustive so you can only expect the to find the leadership and most famous people on them.
2) The infantry and archers don't seem to have been identified by name, period.

Agreed.



3) The Welsh were slow at fixing surnames anyway. We are talking about the 12th century and we see the Welsh weren't big on fixing surnames yet.
"Fixed family names were adopted in Wales from the 15th century onwards", Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_surnames).

True, but as I said in my previous post, in the 12th century the Welsh used a deep-rooted patronymic naming system that was very distinct from the naming system used by the Normans and the Anglo-Saxon English, not least because they spoke a different language. From the common people right up to the Welsh princes, pedigrees were well known and long lasting. Hence, a Llewelyn ap Hywel Fychan, for example, is easy to distinguish from a Bernard de Neufmarche or a Walter de Barry (a Norman who was granted lands in Glamorgan) when we look at the chronicles.



Why are you describing this as a Welsh vs. English issue and then giving an example of a Welsh prince, Rhys ap Gruffyd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_ap_Gruffydd) and FitzStephen, who was half-Welsh/half-Norman(probably of Breton origin)?

I am just making the point that this period in Welsh history was a bloody one of conflict between the Welsh and the Anglo-Normans. The huge number of castles in the Welsh March is testimony to this. Welsh uprisings against the Anglo-Normans were frequent and the general situation was one of hostility between the two peoples for much of the Medieval period. Yes, there was a small amount of intermarriage and some assimilation of native Welsh into Anglo-Norman society but this was not the norm.



Perhaps I'm confused with how you are defining "English". You also mentioned earlier that you thought there were English people in the invasion forces. I would expect some, but prior to King Henry's arrival, I had not read of a heavy English presence with Richard de Clare's conquest.

I will check my sources but I have read somewhere that Strongbow's invasion of Ireland 1170 comprised English infantry. My definition of English in this context is Anglo-Saxon origins as separate from the Norman aristocracy who at this point were still Norman French speaking I believe. Together they are the Anglo-Normans.

I believe that Strongbow recruited from the garrison at Pembroke so it makes sense that he recruited English infantry because Pembroke had been colonised by English and Flemings earlier in the 1100s when the Welsh had been expelled from the area.

I would also point out that the Norman Barons who colonised South Wales in the 11th and 12th centuries were men who held estates in England as well, so many of the peasants who settled in Norman held parts of South Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, drawn from English estates.

TigerMW
11-11-2013, 09:28 PM
... I will check my sources but I have read somewhere that Strongbow's invasion of Ireland 1170 comprised English infantry.
Thank you, I'm certainly interested in any estimates of the breakdown of the invasion forces as well as settlers that followed.


I believe that Strongbow recruited from the garrison at Pembroke so it makes sense that he recruited English infantry because Pembroke had been colonised by English and Flemings earlier in the 1100s when the Welsh had been expelled from the area.

I would also point out that the Norman Barons who colonised South Wales in the 11th and 12th centuries were men who held estates in England as well, so many of the peasants who settled in Norman held parts of South Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, drawn from English estates.

I don't think it is correct to think the Welsh were entirely expelled from South Wales in the 1100s. No doubt control swung back and forth between different Welsh factions and then finally the Norman Marcher Lords took control. Of course the interbreeding between the Marcher Lord families and the Welsh produced the new breed, but even after the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland, the Welsh persisted in South Wales. Wikipedia says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_ap_Gruffydd) of Welsh Prince Rhys ap Gruffydd,

"In 1171 Rhys made peace with King Henry and was confirmed in possession of his recent conquests as well as being named Justiciar of South Wales. He maintained good relations with King Henry until the latter's death in 1189. Following Henry's death Rhys revolted against Richard I and attacked the Norman lordships surrounding his territory, capturing a number of castles. In his later years Rhys had trouble keeping control of his sons, particularly Maelgwn and Gruffydd, who maintained a feud with each other. Rhys launched his last campaign against the Normans in 1196 and captured a number of castles."

I've looked for genetic evidence of Anglo-Saxon migration mapping the Normans in Ireland but have had trouble figuring that out. On the other hand, it's pretty evident to see that where latter known English migrations showed up.

One problem might have been the mixing machine in England. There were probably still plenty of Old Britons around to integrate with the Anglo-Saxons, so the English-Brits, so to speak, might have just looked like Englishmen moving west in to Wales. Something that should be pointed out is that the Norman Marcher Lords were not necessarily in Wales as a reward. My understanding is that in many cases, de Clare being the prime example, their families were on the "outs" with the top of the Norman food chain and Wales provided an opportunity to rebuild their positions.

TigerMW
11-11-2013, 09:38 PM
... for example, is easy to distinguish from a Bernard de Neufmarche or a Walter de Barry (a Norman who was granted lands in Glamorgan) when we look at the chronicles.
Walter de Barry is another example of a mixed breed Cambro-Norman type. His grandmother was Welsh.

"He (William FitzOdo de Barry) had sons: Robert, Philip, Walter and Gerald (better known as Giraldus Cambrensis) by Angharad (also known as Hangharad) daughter of Gerald de Windsor (died 1135) and Nest ferch Rhys." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Barry_family)

GoldenHind
11-11-2013, 11:45 PM
That's right, I've read that in a few books. Of course, the Welsh-English border area had been a contested frontier between Saxon and Welsh long before the Normans arrived.


I find it interesting that there were Normans along the Welsh Marches in the 1050s, invited there by Edward the Confessor. I think the first Norman castle in Britain was built in 1051 or thereabouts. I'll need to check the books when i return home then i can provide more information, although i guess you guys already know it, you might not have this particular author's book.

Lately I try my best to stay away from anything involving the Normans, but since this is something I know a little about, I will chime in.

The Welsh were indeed a difficult neighbor for the Anglo-Saxons, and there were constant raids across the border, occasionally resulting in the destruction of English towns near the border.

Edward the Confessor was half Norman through his mother, and when he became King of England he brought along his Norman nephew, with the uncharacteristic name of Ralf the Timid, to England and installed him as Earl of Hereford, one of the counties along the Welsh border. Ralf brought in some of his Norman followers, and they began the construction of castles, previously unknown in England. One was located at what is today known as Richard's Castle, in north Herefordshire, quite near the border with Shropshire. A second may have been at Hereford itself, and the third may have been at a place called Eywas Harold, though this is disputed. I believe these are the only three pre-Conquest castles in England.

William the Conqueror was less patient with his Welsh neighbors, and installed three of his chief followers as earls of the counties along the Welsh border, Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire. The three earls almost immediately began the process of invading Wales, and it continued for two centuries until the conquest was completed in the reign of Edward I. Castles were constantly built as the invasion continued throughout that time, and more castles were built along the moving border than anywhere else in Britain.

As noted by the historian John Beeler in Warfare in England 1066 to 1189, "the conquest of England by Duke William meant far far more to the Welsh than the substitution of a strong for a weak king of England. Instead of facing a people who were largely content to maintain the status quo along the border, the Welsh now had to contend with the foremost colonizers of the day- a pushing, grasping set of pioneers for whom the rigors of frontier warfare had no terrors."

avalon
11-12-2013, 08:47 PM
Thank you, I'm certainly interested in any estimates of the breakdown of the invasion forces as well as settlers that followed.

The source is Lynn Nelson's "Normans in South Wales." http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/nelson/index.html


About the middle of August in 1170, Strongbow began to move along the old coast road, heading for Milford and gathering recruits along the way. In Pembrokeshire the addition of Maurice of Prendergast's force brought his total strength to about two hundred milites and a thousand infantry. It must be noted that the symmetry of the earlier Cambro-Norman contingents here breaks down. This was a more cosmopolitan group, numbering among its members groups of javelin men and of English infantry


I don't think it is correct to think the Welsh were entirely expelled from South Wales in the 1100s.

I was just referring to South Pembrokeshire not the whole of South Wales. The Brut y Tywysogion (Chronicle of the Princes) records the native Welsh as being forced out by the Anglo-Flemish colonists in early 1100s.





I've looked for genetic evidence of Anglo-Saxon migration mapping the Normans in Ireland but have had trouble figuring that out. On the other hand, it's pretty evident to see that where latter known English migrations showed up.

One problem might have been the mixing machine in England. There were probably still plenty of Old Britons around to integrate with the Anglo-Saxons, so the English-Brits, so to speak, might have just looked like Englishmen moving west in to Wales. Something that should be pointed out is that the Norman Marcher Lords were not necessarily in Wales as a reward. My understanding is that in many cases, de Clare being the prime example, their families were on the "outs" with the top of the Norman food chain and Wales provided an opportunity to rebuild their positions.

With enough testing in Ireland and Britain, genetics should provide some of the answers to the questions about the invaders of Ireland.

As I said earlier, native Welsh sources are quite scarce in the medieval era so I suppose we must look to Irish sources for information about the invaders who settled in Ireland?

Ultimately, as it was only 900 years ago I would expect to see close genetic matches between modern Irish and Welsh men?

Baltimore1937
11-13-2013, 08:00 AM
If you scan the entries at Ancestry on Richard "Strongbow" de Clare, you see that his father, Gilbert de Clare (abt 1100-1148), was the 1st Earl of Pembroke. They both were born in Tinbridge/Tonbridge, Kent. The father was married to Isabel Elizabeth de Beaumont 1102-1172 (dates vary). Strongbow married an Irish woman, so their offspring were half Irish.

Gray Fox
01-09-2014, 05:12 PM
I've found a bit more information on my family. I've located the estate and what became of it.

"Buriate, or Boriatte, in this parish was the ancient property of the family of Isaac. To whom it was conveyed in the reign of Henry III. by Sir. Ralph de Wellington. It now belongs to Gonville and Caius College which is based in Cambridge, to which it was given, about 1730, by Gertrude Pyncombe."

"In the parish church is a monument of Sir Arthur Basset, Of Umberleigh, 1586; and memorials of the families of Isaac, Chichester, and Pollard."

I'm not sure of the Wellington families origins, but Sir Ralph did marry into the de Champernon family. From what I gather the de Champernon surname seems to derive from the name Arnulph/Arnolphe which I gather is French/Norman in origin.

"Gertrude Pyncombe, spinster of Welsbeare, who died on March 19 1730 or 1731 endowed by her Will a permanent Charitable Trust with extensive properties in many Devon and Somerset Parishes, with the principal purposes of providing schooling and augmenting poor clerical livings."

I'm glad to see my families ancestral home was given to a prestigious school rather than simply fading away into nothing.

GTC
01-10-2014, 02:50 AM
I'm glad to see my families ancestral home was given to a prestigious school rather than simply fading away into nothing.

Great find!

So, when do you plan to visit it? :)

Gray Fox
01-10-2014, 12:41 PM
Great find!

So, when do you plan to visit it? :)

Within the next few years if possible! I imagine it going something like this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajbDybJjiM

GTC
01-10-2014, 03:19 PM
Within the next few years if possible! I imagine it going something like this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajbDybJjiM

:lol: !!!!

Don't forget the guitar.

Gray Fox
01-11-2014, 03:59 PM
:biggrin1:

Baltimore1937
01-13-2014, 02:58 AM
I'm seeing knights recruited from all over northern France by William-the-Conqueror. Or anyway, inferred. The latest on my hypothetical maternal tree goes back to Blois, a neighboring duchy of Normandy (Chartres area). Another family name seems to come from the Paris area (Anvers). And I've seen St. maur and Metz and Picardy alluded to. Williiam's wife came from Flanders. These were people of high social status. So no wonder the DNA of England is so mixed up.

Anglecynn
01-13-2014, 03:33 AM
I'm seeing knights recruited from all over northern France by William-the-Conqueror. Or anyway, inferred. The latest on my hypothetical maternal tree goes back to Blois, a neighboring duchy of Normandy (Chartres area). Another family name seems to come from the Paris area (Anvers). And I've seen St. maur and Metz and Picardy alluded to. Williiam's wife came from Flanders. These were people of high social status. So no wonder the DNA of England is so mixed up.

Among the elite, most likely. We're actually fairly homogeneous compared to some immediate neighbours, more so than France and Germany for example, but less so than the Dutch, Scots and Irish.

GTC
01-13-2014, 05:43 AM
Among the elite, most likely.

Yes, it would be fascinating to see test results of a broad selection of the English aristocracy, but I guess Hell will freeze over before that occurs.

Anglecynn
01-13-2014, 02:16 PM
Yes, it would be fascinating to see test results of a broad selection of the English aristocracy, but I guess Hell will freeze over before that occurs.

Yeah, it would be fascinating. :)

I don't know, they traditionally are acutely knowledgeable and interested in their ancestry, so i think you could probably recruit a fair number of them.

GTC
01-13-2014, 02:31 PM
Yeah, it would be fascinating. :)

I don't know, they traditionally are acutely knowledgeable and interested in their ancestry, so i think you could probably recruit a fair number of them.

While they may be interested in their connected ancestry (as in "is he/she in the book" [i.e. Burke's Peerage]), I'm not so sure that they would be willing to share DNA test results with the great unwashed.

When this subject arises, as it usually does when Normans and genealogy are discussed together, the usual reason advanced for such unwillingness is the social and financial jeopardy today's aristos may put themselves into should expected family matches not eventuate. Mon Dieu! As we know, if there's one thing the upper classes try desperately to avoid it's a family scandal, especially a public one. And then there's the unimaginable horror of a commoner coming knocking with a DNA pedigree that entitles them to a large piece of the pie.

I think any approach to recruit them would result in the order "Release the hounds!"

Jean M
01-13-2014, 02:37 PM
Yes, it would be fascinating to see test results of a broad selection of the English aristocracy..

Or maybe not. Most of them have no Norman ancestry in the male line. To quote myself:


Few baronial lines last down to the present day. Nearly a third failed to produce male heirs just in the century after the Conquest. Barons were expected to fight for the king, and might turn out for war with every able man of their family. Risings against a monarch tended to start among the barons too, leading to civil war. So lineages could be lost on the battlefield, while some overmighty subjects were condemned to death as traitors. Among the Earls, Norman male lines had shrunk to de Vere, Percy and Talbot by 1600, though new earldoms had been created for some old Norman families. Subsequent centuries saw more Norman male lineages disappear from the ranks of the aristocracy. The present Percy family, Earls of Northumberland, has twice descended through female lines, adopting the Percy surname. The last de Vere Earl of Oxford died without issue in 1625.

So of the medieval earls of Norman lineage, only the Talbots survive to this day in the male line. The Talbots were a minor Norman family in origin, considered baronial by the 14th century. The Marcher lord John Talbot was created Earl of Shrewsbury in 1442. The Talbot Y-DNA project lists the results of a handful of men bearing the Talbot surname today, none of whom is a known descendant of the Shrewsbury line. It is clear that they cannot all be descended from the same ancestor. Four different haplogroups (including a little R1a1a) have been identified. This is a cautionary tale. Even if you carry a surname that can be found in the Domesday Book, you are not necessarily descended from the person recorded there. The origin of the name is a Germanic personal name Dalabod, which occurs in 13th-century England in the form Talebod and Talebot. So the surname could have arisen a number of times, first in Normandy and later in England. Initially it would mean X, son of Talebot, but become hereditary. It has been assumed that the two Talbots listed in Domesday - Richard and Geoffrey - were related, but that is not necessarily so. Richard was a feudal tenant of Walter Giffard and his descendants can be traced partly through continuing service to the Giffards. Geoffrey Talbot held a manor from Hugh de Gournai. So there is nothing to link the two men.


http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/normans.shtml

Jean M
01-13-2014, 02:47 PM
And then there's the unimaginable horror of a commoner coming knocking with a DNA pedigree that entitles them to a large piece of the pie.

Usually the only way anyone would be entitled to any slice of the pie is if it had been left to them in a will, or under a deed of trust. In some cases that might include persons as yet unborn, but these would usually be defined as "the legitimate heirs of the body" so there is no way that anyone without a paper trail including marriage certificates of ancestors would get anywhere near the pie.

The lost heir turning up is a favourite theme in fiction. Not so common in fact. ;)

GTC
01-13-2014, 02:55 PM
so there is no way that anyone without a paper trail including marriage certificates of ancestors would get anywhere near the pie.

Perhaps, but I'm not a lawyer and so I don't know what sorts of challenges are possible in this modern era.


The lost heir turning up is a favourite theme in fiction. Not so common in fact. ;)

Yes, but now we have DNA testing of ever increasing levels of sophistication. What was fiction yesterday, may become fact tomorrow. Who knows?

But there are always the hounds!

Jean M
01-13-2014, 03:08 PM
Perhaps, but I'm not a lawyer and so I don't know what sorts of challenges are possible in this modern era.

Having read a good few wills and entails in my time (in the line of work), I'd say it would be impossible to challenge them on DNA alone. Sorry! I know that it is fun to dream up these scenarios.

GTC
01-13-2014, 03:14 PM
Most of them have no Norman ancestry in the male line.

I think any aristo today claiming Norman ancestry would be hard-pressed to use DNA to prove it. What would they use for comparison/proof? What do we mean by "Norman" in this sense? They would be in the same situation of anybody here who suspects Norman ancestry from the various historical writings, etc. Which "set" of recognized living "Normans" do we test against? Who do we dig up and test and from where?

As is often remarked, it's really only when you reach the level of royalty that you find reliably documented pedigrees long enough to prove such relationships.

GTC
01-13-2014, 03:19 PM
Having read a good few wills and entails in my time (in the line of work), I'd say it would be impossible to challenge them on DNA alone.

I leave legal opinions to lawyers.


Sorry! I know that it is fun to dream up these scenarios.

I don't dream up such scenarios, but I do try to keep an open mind to future possibilities in a range of areas.

Jean M
01-13-2014, 03:21 PM
Take a look at this list of earls : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earls

You can see the date that each peerage was created. It runs from 1398 (in Scotland) and 1442 (in England) to 1999. Nothing from 1066. Norman barons - all gone. Dead as the dodo.

Jean M
01-13-2014, 03:23 PM
I leave legal opinions to lawyers.

What I'm trying in my fumbling way to say is that these things are drawn up by lawyers. The standard format excludes illegitimate heirs.

GTC
01-13-2014, 03:26 PM
Nothing from 1066. Norman barons - all gone.

That may be the case as far as what's written but, as has been alluded to, William's lot didn't necessarily stay faithful to their spouses. Their offspring may be here there and everywhere today. But, as I said, if I or anyone else was to try to prove such a thing who do we dig up and where?

GTC
01-13-2014, 03:31 PM
The standard format excludes illegitimate heirs.

And if DNA testing should prove illegitimacy of a current "heir" ... ?

I guess that's a question for a lawyer.

Jean M
01-13-2014, 03:38 PM
William's lot didn't necessarily stay faithful to their spouses. Their offspring may be here there and everywhere today. But, as I said, if I or anyone else was to try to prove such a thing who do we dig up and where?

Illegitimate offspring of kings and barons were in some cases recognised and recorded. But many a child of a Norman lord of the manor would go unrecorded, and this was before the days of surnames for the majority. So there is little hope there.

However legitimate junior branches of a manorial family might well retain the family surname, and hand it down. There are examples of known Norman surnames which by the 19th century had lost any connection with landed acres, the senior line having died out, but which were thriving in the professions or quite humble occupations.

It sounds as though Isaac/Isaack in Devon could be case in point, looking at http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=ISAAC&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

Jean M
01-13-2014, 03:39 PM
And if DNA testing should prove illegitimacy of a current "heir" ... ?

Yes that is much more to be feared by those with something to lose.

GTC
01-13-2014, 03:46 PM
There are examples of known Norman surnames which by the 19th century had lost any connection with landed acres, the senior line having died out, but which are thriving the professions or quite humble occupations.

It's these people that I think would be interesting to test, and they may be more inclined to do so than the lords of the manor with the big gates (and the hounds).

However, although their deep clade and haplotype data would be fascinating to me, and perhaps many others, I'm not sure what particular benefit they themselves would derive from testing unless they were provided access to the equivalent of the Holy Grail -- a database of certified "Norman" signatures to compare themselves against. And there's the rub.

GTC
01-13-2014, 04:02 PM
It sounds as though Isaac/Isaack in Devon could be case in point, looking at http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=ISAAC&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

Mentioning that reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask:

Sam, are you still SRY2627* ?

If so, have you considered doing the BIG Y?

Gray Fox
01-13-2014, 05:54 PM
Mentioning that reminded me of something I've been meaning to ask:

Sam, are you still SRY2627* ?

If so, have you considered doing the BIG Y?

Yes, I'm still walking around with an asterisk :)

I am considering it, but I'm playing the waiting game right now. Until the price is lowered a bit I can't afford to shell out the required funds.

GTC
01-14-2014, 12:13 AM
Yes, I'm still walking around with an asterisk :)

I am considering it, but I'm playing the waiting game right now. Until the price is lowered a bit I can't afford to shell out the required funds.

Fair enough.

I was very tempted to purchase during the initial discount period, but decided to wait until I see how others in and around my branch fare in terms of new SNPs.

Gray Fox
01-14-2014, 03:02 AM
Fair enough.

I was very tempted to purchase during the initial discount period, but decided to wait until I see how others in and around my branch fare in terms of new SNPs.

Through my French connection (Alright, I was just looking for an excuse to say that :biggrin1:) I am currently waiting for the results of another Grouazel's test. Hoping he'll be a bit closer to me. I've also spoken to a few British Isaac's in hopes of recruiting them.. No luck so far, but I wouldn't be where I am today without persistence!

Stephen Parrish
01-14-2014, 02:18 PM
Yes, I'm still walking around with an asterisk :)

I am considering it, but I'm playing the waiting game right now. Until the price is lowered a bit I can't afford to shell out the required funds.

Sam and GTC -

Sixteen members of the SRY2627+ DNA project have Big Y tests in progress. Geno 2.0 results suggest that the SRY2627+ DYS490 = 10 group has R-CTS8289+ as one of its Geno 2.0 terminal SNPs; furthermore, R-Z205+, R-Z205-, and CTS8289- appear in the SRY2627+ DYS490 = 12 group. After Big Y results arrive (as well as results from FGC), we should have better estimates of when SNPs appeared that are downstream from SRY2627+.

Stephen Parrish
Co-administrator, DF27+ and Subclades and SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ DNA Projects

TigerMW
01-14-2014, 02:57 PM
What kind of name is Hatcliffe? Is that considered more Norman or more pure English based? I found a match from North Yorkshire.

Jean M
01-14-2014, 03:37 PM
What kind of name is Hatcliffe? Is that considered more Norman or more pure English based? I found a match from North Yorkshire.

It is from a place-name. The place is Hatcliffe, Lincolnshire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatcliffe . The parish church of St Mary's dates from the 13th century, and contains memorials dedicated to the Hatcliffe family dating to 1525.

The surname appears in records from 1204, though at that date it is "of Hatcliffe". I would have to research a bit to find out more.

Gray Fox
01-14-2014, 03:46 PM
What kind of name is Hatcliffe? Is that considered more Norman or more pure English based? I found a match from North Yorkshire.

Adding to what Jean has already said.

From surnamedb.com

"Recorded in several forms including Hatcliffe, Hatliff, Hatlife, Hatliffe, Hattiff, and others, this is an English surname. It is locational from the village of Hatcliffe, in the county of Lincolnshire, and is first recorded in the famous Domesday Book as "Hadeclive." This translates, according to the Oxford Dictionary of English place Names as "Headda's slope," with Headda being apparently an early personal name. We believe that a more likely explanation is a fusing of the pre 7th century Olde English "heap dun cliv," which would mean the heather covered hill side."

GoldenHind
01-14-2014, 09:41 PM
What kind of name is Hatcliffe? Is that considered more Norman or more pure English based? I found a match from North Yorkshire.

There are comparatively few "Norman" surnames in Britain- namely those which refer to places in Normandy. Many of the Normans, at least at the manorial level, adopted the name of their English manor as their surname. So having an English place name as a surname, such as Hatcliffe, does not necessarily indicate an Anglo-Saxon origin.

An example is the once numerous and powerful family of Dutton of Cheshire. Through a remarkable survival of charters and other records, the family's origin can be traced to one Odard, a Norman knight who held the manor of Dutton in Domesday.

GTC
01-15-2014, 03:17 AM
Sixteen members of the SRY2627+ DNA project have Big Y tests in progress.

Thanks for the info. I hope that uncovers a bunch of new downstream SNPs to test for.

GoldenHind
01-16-2014, 12:43 AM
There are comparatively few "Norman" surnames in Britain- namely those which refer to places in Normandy. Many of the Normans, at least at the manorial level, adopted the name of their English manor as their surname. So having an English place name as a surname, such as Hatcliffe, does not necessarily indicate an Anglo-Saxon origin.

An example is the once numerous and powerful family of Dutton of Cheshire. Through a remarkable survival of charters and other records, the family's origin can be traced to one Odard, a Norman knight who held the manor of Dutton in Domesday.

Since this comment seems to be of interest, I thought I should expand on it. By the late 12th/early 13th centuries, most of the manors in England were in the possession of people who had taken the name of their manor as their surname. By that time they almost always had Norman personal names- Robert, William, Richard etc. However Anglo-Saxon personal names did not long survive the Norman Conquest, at least at this level of society (with some exceptions such as Edward). In almost all of these cases, it is simply not possible to prove whether these individuals were of Anglo-Saxon or Norman (including Flemish, Breton and other French) origin, although it seems likely that most were Normans. It is only the extremely rare case where their ancestry can be traced to an individual mentioned in Domesday Book.

Another example of a family with Domesday ancestry is Arden of Arden in Warwickshire. Shakespeare's mother was possibily a member of this family. Their origin can be traced to one Aelfwine, who was Sheriff of Warwickshire before the Conquest, and obviously of Anglo-Saxon origin. Another example with an Anglo-Saxon origin is the well known family of Berkeley in Gloucestershire. The family held Berkeley Castle for eight centuries. Their ancestor is generally accepted to be Harding son of Eadnoth, an Anglo-Saxon thane.

Gray Fox
02-19-2014, 01:15 AM
The results of my French "cousin's" new recruit are in. He's similar to him, but couldn't be further away from my group. This means that my initial thoughts were correct and that his similarity to us was simply a coincidental, recent mutation. So, as I had long feared, it appears I have brick-walled in Winkleigh/Buriate.

The highs and lows of Genetic Genealogy!

Jean M
02-19-2014, 12:39 PM
There are comparatively few "Norman" surnames in Britain- namely those which refer to places in Normandy.

Once there were more, but the surnames do not survive e.g. St Valery, Bolebec.

razyn
02-19-2014, 01:29 PM
Is anybody here aware of the release date for the FaNUK project -- Family Names of the United Kingdom? It's a big one, has been underway for some time, and I've been allowed a peek at the primary entry for my surname (under the spelling Hulin), which they interpret as Norman. That's why I mention it on this thread. Here's a link to the project, though not to its product: http://www1.uwe.ac.uk/cahe/research/bristolcentreforlinguistics/fanuk.aspx

Edit: this url may link to an eprint version of the study itself, for those who are able somehow to access it:
http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16302/

GoldenHind
02-19-2014, 08:02 PM
Once there were more, but the surnames do not survive e.g. St Valery, Bolebec.

Some which do survive are virtually unrecognizable in their modern form. An example is Mainwaring, pronounced Mannering, as in the case of the bumbling Colonel in Dad's Army. According to Reaney, there are 130 variant spellings of the name. The Cheshire family of the name stems from Ranulf de Maisnilwarin, who held a dozen manors from Earl Hugh Lupus in Domesday. The name comes from a place in Normandy called Mesnilwarin.

GTC
02-20-2014, 02:00 AM
Some which do survive are virtually unrecognizable in their modern form. An example is Mainwaring, pronounced Mannering, as in the case of the bumbling Colonel in Dad's Army. According to Reaney, there are 130 variant spellings of the name. The Cheshire family of the name stems from Ranulf de Maisnilwarin, who held a dozen manors from Earl Hugh Lupus in Domesday. The name comes from a place in Normandy called Mesnilwarin.

Very interesting.

(PS: It's Captain Mainwaring. One of my all time favorite shows.)

Gray Fox
03-13-2014, 05:59 PM
I received a message last night from a new member on here. Seems she is an Isaac descendant of the same family as myself. Hopefully she doesn't mind my sharing some of the information she gave me!

It seems at some point in the late 1800's the family members remaining in the area of the estate changed their name to de Buriatte. Apparently her Grandfather was born an Isaac, but was christened as de buriatte.

It also seems the family estate is no longer in possession of the school I mentioned earlier. Looks to be a bed and breakfast sort of thing..

Here is a review of the Estate.. There's even a room called "The Isaac Room" :biggrin1:

http://www.choice-cottages.co.uk/atherington-boreat-manor-%7C-5-bedrooms-umberleigh-82604.htm

GTC
03-13-2014, 11:32 PM
It also seems the family estate is no longer in possession of the school I mentioned earlier. Looks to be a bed and breakfast sort of thing..

Even better. Now you can visit and stay there too.

Gray Fox
03-14-2014, 02:14 PM
Even better. Now you can visit and stay there too.

Its so beautiful there, they may have to hire me on full time as some sort of living statue.. "And to your left, an actual descendant of the ancient family who once held estate here." :)

GTC
03-14-2014, 02:41 PM
Its so beautiful there, they may have to hire me on full time as some sort of living statue.. "And to your left, an actual descendant of the ancient family who once held estate here." :)

That could work. You may get tips out of sympathy. :)

GTC
03-14-2014, 02:42 PM
Its so beautiful there, they may have to hire me on full time as some sort of living statue.. "And to your left, an actual descendant of the ancient family who once held estate here." :)

That could work. You may get tips out of sympathy. :-)

Oh, and keep a good supply of test kits on hand for any visitors who claim a connection.

Gray Fox
03-14-2014, 08:09 PM
That could work. You may get tips out of sympathy. :-)

Oh, and keep a good supply of test kits on hand for any visitors who claim a connection.

Oh, but yes! I'll be locked and loaded and ready to ask bewildered Englishmen for a sample.

Gray Fox
04-27-2014, 03:55 AM
I slowly keep chipping away at this mystery.

If one is to follow the history of this region in Devon, one will invariably discover three families that have been of the utmost importance to the village. Said families are: de Soleigney, de Champernon, de Willington and Bassett.

The de Soleigney family were supporters of Henry the second during his fight for the throne of England. The de Soleigney family intermarried with the de Champernon family. The de Willington family eventually intermarried with the de Champernon connecting all three throughout the early recorded history for the region. I believe my family generally supported these families and this succession of kings down to Henry the third who recognized my families contributions to him and his fore-fathers.

I believe the Isaac family, although not as well recognized, were part of this trifecta of power. As our family history states, the name and family farm were bestowed upon us by Richard the lion-heart for crusader service. I doubt that Richard himself granted the name, but I do believe we may have been in service to him during the Crusades. The land which was the eventual location of Boriotte manor was bestowed to us by Ralph de Willington, a Gloucestershire Knight of Norman heritage. It seems he intermarried with the Champernon family who were at the time lord of the manor for atherington, where boriotte manor is located.

Baltimore1937
05-10-2014, 11:54 AM
Out of curiosity, how much Norman DNA is still circulating in Sicily? Italian immigrants from Sicily could have a small percentage of their autosomal DNA stemming from Norman overlords in Medieval times. Or?

GTC
05-10-2014, 12:05 PM
Out of curiosity, how much Norman DNA is still circulating in Sicily? Italian immigrants from Sicily could have a small percentage of their autosomal DNA stemming from Norman overlords in Medieval times. Or?

I don't think anybody can answer your question with meaningful statistics at the moment. For one thing, the term "Norman" when applied to invasion forces comprises folks of numerous regions, not just Normandy. For another thing, I know of no in-depth testing of Sicilians whose families can be traced back to the invasion era.

Baltimore1937
05-10-2014, 07:55 PM
I don't think anybody can answer your question with meaningful statistics at the moment. For one thing, the term "Norman" when applied to invasion forces comprises folks of numerous regions, not just Normandy. For another thing, I know of no in-depth testing of Sicilians whose families can be traced back to the invasion era.

I was looking at a writeup on Google. There is suspected Norman DNA in the Palermo area. That is partly due to Y-I1 (I think it was) being found there. Also, Roger I of Sicily came from Norman stock, which seemed to marry their own kind in early Normandy. His alleged 2 wives were possibly both daughters of Richard I, Duke of of Normandy. Anyway, I am just speculating on where my apparent extra Norse autosomal DNA came from.

jbarry6899
05-22-2014, 01:17 PM
My paternal ancestors, the Barry family of County Cork, are generally considered to be Anglo-Norman, based on their participation in the 12th century Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland. However, there are some genealogical studies that suggest an origin near Tournai in Flanders. (William of Nomandy's wife, Matilda, was the daughter of the Count of Flanders.) Interestingly, I am part of a group of 17 men who share the Barry surname, several of whom trace their families to Cork. We are all R1b-Z49, a rather rare haplogroup in Ireland and 10 of us have an extremely unusual value of DYS388=11, found in fewer than 0.5% of R1b men. I am currently awaiting results of an S8183 test at YSeq in the hope of refining the information on family origins.

Any thoughts most welcome.

Jim

GTC
05-22-2014, 01:41 PM
My paternal ancestors, the Barry family of County Cork, are generally considered to be Anglo-Norman, based on their participation in the 12th century Norman-Welsh invasion of Ireland. However, there are some genealogical studies that suggest an origin near Tournai in Flanders. (William of Nomandy's wife, Matilda, was the daughter of the Count of Flanders.)

As we've probably said earlier, the term "Norman" in the context of invaders certainly includes men from Flanders. It's said that William recruited from all of northern France, the Low Countries and Germany with promises of land and other rewards for joining him. I would not be surprised if my own R1b-Z12 line came from the Low Countries, or bordered on them.

jbarry6899
05-22-2014, 04:58 PM
As we've probably said earlier, the term "Norman" in the context of invaders certainly includes men from Flanders. It's said that William recruited from all of northern France, the Low Countries and Germany with promised of land and other rewards for joining him. I would not be surprised if my own R1b-Z12 line came from the Low Countries, or bordered on them.

And there is considerable genetic diversity in those groups. The Normandy project at FTDNA includes haplogroups E, I, J, R, and maybe Q (could be a new haplotree error); the Flanders project has all of those plus G; the Netherlands project also includes N.

Barellalee
07-07-2014, 04:12 AM
With regards to the ethnic English, what is at least the general current genetic/archaeological view, if not a consensus, of the "Celtic" (British) vs. Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) Admixture? Old views said that the Anglo-Saxons virtually replaced the Romano-Britons, and thus the English are mostly the descendants of Germanics. In recent times, the contrasting view is that it was a minority elite replacement, and most of the English descend from people no different than the Welsh and Cornish and Scots do. I suppose somewhere down the middle is that there was a large Germanic influx, but they merged with the natives, and the modern English are more or less a mixed "Celto-Germanic" people.

Gray Fox
07-22-2014, 10:03 PM
Its been a sort of Christmas in July for me. The proprietor of the old family estate shared a few gems today.

The first is a picture of a fellow Isaac and distant cousin to me. A John Isaac du buriatte. Portrait painted in 1812.

2106

The next is the family coat of arms. The Latin phrase translates as "Under this sign you will conquer."

2107

GTC
07-23-2014, 02:59 AM
Nice score there. You're fortunate that the proprietor is so helpful.

Gray Fox
07-23-2014, 07:06 AM
Yes, very much so. I'm very grateful that she cares about the family that once lived there. Especially since the actual estate burned down a short while back. Its history could've easily been forgotten.

razyn
07-23-2014, 01:29 PM
I thought perhaps I should cite the Family Names of the United Kingdom project again -- its website was updated in May, and my original post about it (#120 on this thread) was in February. http://www1.uwe.ac.uk/cahe/research/bristolcentreforlinguistics/fanuk.aspx

When that resource becomes available, you'll find that it's pretty amazing. And they seem to be into Normans.

Gray Fox
08-08-2014, 04:25 AM
The proprietor keeps on keeping on. She posted another wealth of info today.

Apparently the original bearers of Buriatte manor were named Hamlyn. It states the following..

"Sir Ralph Willington, Knight, Lived in the time of Henry III and gave Buryet unto Hamline, which hath continued a long while in the race of Isaacs. This married Garland: his father, Chichester: His grandfather, "Berry."

The Barton of Buryett, in this parish, now the dwelling of Isaac, was given to Hamlyn, one of their ancestors, by Sir Ralph Wellington.

14th century. Isaac family settle at Buriot."

GTC
08-08-2014, 07:40 AM
The proprietor keeps on keeping on. She posted another wealth of info today.

Apparently the original bearers of Buriatte manor were named Hamlyn. It states the following..

"Sir Ralph Willington, Knight, Lived in the time of Henry III and gave Buryet unto Hamline, which hath continued a long while in the race of Isaacs. This married Garland: his father, Chichester: His grandfather, "Berry."

The Barton of Buryett, in this parish, now the dwelling of Isaac, was given to Hamlyn, one of their ancestors, by Sir Ralph Wellington.

14th century. Isaac family settle at Buriot."

You're definitely going to have to pay her a visit.

Gray Fox
08-09-2014, 07:59 AM
You're definitely going to have to pay her a visit.

For sure. I'm glad she provided this new clue. Now I know my family only moved in at a later date. Back to square one, but at least that lead has been followed through and I can close the case on it.

La Papallona
09-19-2014, 11:25 PM
Regarding Normans, how many admixture did they leave in Sicily?

CeltoTate
11-06-2014, 01:05 AM
Regarding the Joyce SRY2627. It seems there is a small family cluster of Joyce's who belong to said sub clade, reporting roots to Ireland. I notice there is also a group of Joyce's from Ireland who have turned up L21. I can't help but feel that the L21 are Native Irish who adopted the surname and the SRY2627 represent the invaders. I doubt very much that the Native Irishmen would have belonged to SRY2627. I don't know of any SRY2627 that has been reported as being truly Native. Another interesting aspect of the Joyce family, well interesting to me, is that they also have 14 repeats at DYS392. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's fun to believe it may have something do with a French/Norman origin for us both.

A similar trend also seems to be present in the Fitzgerald's.. With native groups adopting the name being L21 and the original invaders seem to have belonged to haplogroup I1. The Fitzhugh's also seem to be either I1 or I2a.

Hello Sam!

This is my first time posting to any of the forums, but I have been lurking for a while now and have seen a lot of the different hypotheses regarding SRY2627 floating around. I came across an interesting tidbit of information regarding a possible link between my family and the Joyce family you referenced in your post. I am also SRY2627 (recently discovered), but also tested positive for R-CTS606 like a few of the Joyces. It is possible that my Tates and the Joyces crossed paths once they migrated to the new world, possibly by random chance, or possibly because they migrated from the same area at the same time. Both of our families happened to occupy a small corner of Virginia known as Lunenburg County, and a Tate woman married one of the Joyce brothers before they moved on to North Carolina. I have found no records of the Tate woman in our family history, but I did attempt to contact one of the SRY2627 Joyces through social media; if I hear anything interesting I will pass it along.

My particular branch of the Tates is believed to be from Northumberland/Scottish borders region, but we have no definitive documentation that confirms this link. I believe there was a Tate family of minor nobility that lived in Northhamptonshire and had a manor at Delapre Abbey, but I do not think there is a link between the two families (quite a jog to the borders from Delapre). I completed my test through Geno 2.0, and am currently in the process of upgrading to 37 markers over at FTDNA, so hopefully I can get a better picture for you all soon.

Trying to unravel how SRY2627 got to the Isles is driving me nuts! Hopefully in the near future we will have some better fidelity on migrations in the region.

Gray Fox
11-06-2014, 01:24 AM
Hello Sam!

This is my first time posting to any of the forums, but I have been lurking for a while now and have seen a lot of the different hypotheses regarding SRY2627 floating around. I came across an interesting tidbit of information regarding a possible link between my family and the Joyce family you referenced in your post. I am also SRY2627 (recently discovered), but also tested positive for R-CTS606 like a few of the Joyces. It is possible that my Tates and the Joyces crossed paths once they migrated to the new world, possibly by random chance, or possibly because they migrated from the same area at the same time. Both of our families happened to occupy a small corner of Virginia known as Lunenburg County, and a Tate woman married one of the Joyce brothers before they moved on to North Carolina. I have found no records of the Tate woman in our family history, but I did attempt to contact one of the SRY2627 Joyces through social media; if I hear anything interesting I will pass it along.

My particular branch of the Tates is believed to be from Northumberland/Scottish borders region, but we have no definitive documentation that confirms this link. I believe there was a Tate family of minor nobility that lived in Northhamptonshire and had a manor at Delapre Abbey, but I do not think there is a link between the two families (quite a jog to the borders from Delapre). I completed my test through Geno 2.0, and am currently in the process of upgrading to 37 markers over at FTDNA, so hopefully I can get a better picture for you all soon.

Trying to unravel how SRY2627 got to the Isles is driving me nuts! Hopefully in the near future we will have some better fidelity on migrations in the region.

Welcome to the forums!

Its always a delight when another SRY2627 person pops up!

As you've read I am currently in contact with an individual reporting ancestry from Brittany who also happens to be SRY2627. We've worked out a tmrca that places us just before the Crusades. I don't believe either of our two groups, Isaack and Grouazel, have tested for CTS606, but I've got a feeling that it may be our marker. I've suggested the possibility that we may form a distinct British/French cluster of SRY2627, but I've not yet worked out the kinks of that theory. I'll dig through my emails and Facebook posts to see if I can locate my admins test results and that will let us know about 606.

Thanks for joining on! We need more of our rank around here.

CeltoTate
11-06-2014, 01:49 AM
Welcome to the forums!

Its always a delight when another SRY2627 person pops up!

As you've read I am currently in contact with an individual reporting ancestry from Brittany who also happens to be SRY2627. We've worked out a tmrca that places us just before the Crusades. I don't believe either of our two groups, Isaack and Grouazel, have tested for CTS606, but I've got a feeling that it may be our marker. I've suggested the possibility that we may form a distinct British/French cluster of SRY2627, but I've not yet worked out the kinks of that theory. I'll dig through my emails and Facebook posts to see if I can locate my admins test results and that will let us know about 606.

Thanks for joining on! We need more of our rank around here.

Thanks for the welcome! It very well may be that 606 forms a French-British cluster, but I want to say there was a Rosales from northern Spain (Galicia area?) that was positive for 606 as well. As far as I can tell, the Tate surname was Germanic in origin...possibly from a Proto-Germanic root as it shows up in both Old Norse and Old English. I have also seen a suggestion that maybe it came from the Norman French word for head, "tete." How my branch came to adopt the surname will most likely remain a mystery, as Northumbria seemed to be a mix of everyone....Norse, Angles, Normans, Celts....who knows?

Were you Z202/205 positive? I believe the phylogenetic tree on FTDNA had 606 nestled under those groups; whether that appears proper I cannot say as I am just a novice when it comes to all of this.

Gray Fox
11-06-2014, 03:39 AM
Thanks for the welcome! It very well may be that 606 forms a French-British cluster, but I want to say there was a Rosales from northern Spain (Galicia area?) that was positive for 606 as well. As far as I can tell, the Tate surname was Germanic in origin...possibly from a Proto-Germanic root as it shows up in both Old Norse and Old English. I have also seen a suggestion that maybe it came from the Norman French word for head, "tete." How my branch came to adopt the surname will most likely remain a mystery, as Northumbria seemed to be a mix of everyone....Norse, Angles, Normans, Celts....who knows?

Were you Z202/205 positive? I believe the phylogenetic tree on FTDNA had 606 nestled under those groups; whether that appears proper I cannot say as I am just a novice when it comes to all of this.

I haven't tested for it yet. And yes, it is below Z205. I don't think Z202 and Z205 are phylogenetically equivalent, but I could be wrong.The only markers my surname group have tested for are Z200 and Z202, both of which were negative. Though my potential match has tested negative for it (Z205). I'm not 100% sure of that connection, so I'm going to have it tested before long. That will help shed some light on that connection. I want it to work, but I'm very skeptical of it.

CeltoTate
11-13-2014, 10:15 PM
I haven't tested for it yet. And yes, it is below Z205. I don't think Z202 and Z205 are phylogenetically equivalent, but I could be wrong.The only markers my surname group have tested for are Z200 and Z202, both of which were negative. Though my potential match has tested negative for it (Z205). I'm not 100% sure of that connection, so I'm going to have it tested before long. That will help shed some light on that connection. I want it to work, but I'm very skeptical of it.

I am starting to think that a Norman input or some other migration from France in the last 1600 years or so is becoming more likely for at least a few of the R-CTS606 groups in the British Isles. I was messing around and doing some very crude TMRCA calculations for a few of the R-CTS606 families, and it appears that the Joyces, a Baker family from Tennessee, and the Robert individual from La Rochelle shared a common ancestor from the period around 400 AD. Some of the other members of the 606 group in France/Spain had a more distant common ancestor, ranging from around 200-500 BC.

However, there seems to be a developing trend with R-CTS606 that may further muddy the waters. After messing around on the Genographic website I noticed there were a few 606 members that have not transferred their results to FTDNA; of the 7 or 8 I did not recognize from the SRY2627 project, 3 had origins in Spain, 1 from France, 1 Dutch, 1 from southern Germany (Immendingen area), and one from....Sweden.

Gray Fox
11-13-2014, 11:40 PM
I am starting to think that a Norman input or some other migration from France in the last 1600 years or so is becoming more likely for at least a few of the R-CTS606 groups in the British Isles. I was messing around and doing some very crude TMRCA calculations for a few of the R-CTS606 families, and it appears that the Joyces, a Baker family from Tennessee, and the Robert individual from La Rochelle shared a common ancestor from the period around 400 AD. Some of the other members of the 606 group in France/Spain had a more distant common ancestor, ranging from around 200-500 BC.

However, there seems to be a developing trend with R-CTS606 that may further muddy the waters. After messing around on the Genographic website I noticed there were a few 606 members that have not transferred their results to FTDNA; of the 7 or 8 I did not recognize from the SRY2627 project, 3 had origins in Spain, 1 from France, 1 Dutch, 1 from southern Germany (Immendingen area), and one from....Sweden.

Yes, most likely the input from was from France. I'm not sure of the common ancestor theory for the Joyce and Baker families. At least not one that recent. Their group (Joyce) modal is pretty distinct from the others in the group and it seems to suggest a much more ancient split.

Its looking like this group is one of the oldest varieties found under SRY2627/Z205. Very surprised to find it in Sweden, even though it is a singleton at the moment. I'll definitely be ordering these markers before long.

CeltoTate
11-14-2014, 12:05 AM
Yes, most likely the input from was from France. I'm not sure of the common ancestor theory for the Joyce and Baker families. At least not one that recent. Their group (Joyce) modal is pretty distinct from the others in the group and it seems to suggest a much more ancient split.

Its looking like this group is one of the oldest varieties found under SRY2627/Z205. Very surprised to find it in Sweden, even though it is a singleton at the moment. I'll definitely be ordering these markers before long.

Interesting. Are you referring at the DYS393 value of 14? I am fairly new to all of this, but I have read that the 393 marker has one of the slowest mutation rates. If I remember correctly, I think I read (amongst one of the many SRY2627 threads, perhaps this one) that the Joyces also have another interesting valueat DYS492 I believe. The TMRCA numbers I ran were very, very crude, so definitely take those with a grain of salt!

The Swedish R-CSTS606 hit is somewhat intriguing; I was kind of shocked to find it there as well. I am not sure if Gareth, Didier, or Stephen know about these 606 newbies yet, it would be nice to get them involved in the project.

GoldenHind
11-14-2014, 12:06 AM
Regarding Normans, how many admixture did they leave in Sicily?

I doubt anyone knows the answer to that question. My guess is that it probably isn't very large.

Gray Fox
11-14-2014, 01:30 AM
Interesting. Are you referring at the DYS393 value of 14? I am fairly new to all of this, but I have read that the 393 marker has one of the slowest mutation rates. If I remember correctly, I think I read (amongst one of the many SRY2627 threads, perhaps this one) that the Joyces also have another interesting valueat DYS492 I believe. The TMRCA numbers I ran were very, very crude, so definitely take those with a grain of salt!

The Swedish R-CSTS606 hit is somewhat intriguing; I was kind of shocked to find it there as well. I am not sure if Gareth, Didier, or Stephen know about these 606 newbies yet, it would be nice to get them involved in the project.

Yes, as well as DYS392, which seems pretty slow as well. They, like me, have 14 repeats at that value too. DYS392=14 is modal for my Isaac group and seems fairly infrequent amongst the M167 crowd. It is also modal for R1b-L21-M222. I actually assumed, incorrectly, that I would test for L21 and M222 based on that. I believe that's the marker you're referring to, as they seem modal with P312 at 492.

I ran a tmrca between Joyce and myself and I'm roughly coming up with a split in the late 700 AD time frame. We're at a genetic distance of 19 at 67 str markers. I'm closer to the Breton individual with a genetic distance of 15, roughly giving us a tmrca of 100 or so years before the invasion of 1066. At least I'll only have to order Z205 to find out which is more likely!

Are you on Facebook? There is a great P312 group on there with emphasis on DF27. DF27 project admins Richard Hulin and Stephen Parrish both post regularly on it.

Reith
11-14-2014, 07:20 PM
I always thought it was interesting that Charlemagne deported 10,000 Saxons following the Saxon Wars to Neustria, where there were Saxon settlements (Saxon Shore) since the 400s already. This land is right next to Normandy too, yet there is so much L-21 in these areas. Perhaps the Normans and these Saxons did not have the classical Germanic DNA markers?

Or that the number of both waves of Saxon immigration and the Norman immigration to this area of France was inflated or did not affect the male population that much...

Anglecynn
11-14-2014, 07:35 PM
I always thought it was interesting that Charlemagne deported 10,000 Saxons following the Saxon Wars to Neustria, where there were Saxon settlements (Saxon Shore) since the 400s already. This land is right next to Normandy too, yet there is so much L-21 in these areas. Perhaps the Normans and these Saxons did not have the classical Germanic DNA markers?

Or that the number of both waves of Saxon immigration and the Norman immigration to this area of France was inflated or did not affect the male population that much...

Things can change over a long time, would need ancient DNA to get a better picture. Although there is about 8% R1b-U106 and a little less I1 in northern France iirc, so there's room for that. Although it depends on the size of the population they went into and their reproductive success over the generations. If they were of low social status (as you might expect) and didn't fare too well their input may have been fairly small i guess. Depends on what northern France looked like genetically prior to that i guess - if they had considerably less markers typically considered Germanic than they do today, then they may have been part of that change. Also depends on what y-DNA was like in Saxon homelands at the same time, it may have had a different distribution at that time - even if it was made up of the same sort of markers (R1b-U106, I1, R1a etc)?

Reith
11-16-2014, 03:39 PM
Things can change over a long time, would need ancient DNA to get a better picture. Although there is about 8% R1b-U106 and a little less I1 in northern France iirc, so there's room for that. Although it depends on the size of the population they went into and their reproductive success over the generations. If they were of low social status (as you might expect) and didn't fare too well their input may have been fairly small i guess. Depends on what northern France looked like genetically prior to that i guess - if they had considerably less markers typically considered Germanic than they do today, then they may have been part of that change. Also depends on what y-DNA was like in Saxon homelands at the same time, it may have had a different distribution at that time - even if it was made up of the same sort of markers (R1b-U106, I1, R1a etc)?

Well as far as the Saxon shore was concerned, I am sure there were plenty of warriors there already. Saxons raided this area for a good 500 years prior to the vikings and some theorize that not until The Saxon wars did the Vikings start to raid out of pressure to the Christians.

You could have a point of the 10k since a lot of warriors were killed as prisoners in the name of Christ.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated that we don't know what mix of Y groups were their in the original homeland. We know L21 came to even more northern spots and either by boat or land they had to move through the eventual Saxon lands

irishcheese
12-03-2014, 05:30 AM
Hello Folks,

I just happened to find this discussion on CTS606 and it happens that I am a Joyce who has tested positive for that! Am I correct in that the evidence is leaning towards cts606 as a Norman haplogroup? Oh yes, I am not the only Joyce who has tested positive for this haplogroup :}. I know of another person as well.

irishcheese
12-03-2014, 05:48 AM
And yes, Celtotate, we are from the same Joyce family in VA! I assume you're referring to the Thomas/Alexander Joyce family?

Gray Fox
12-03-2014, 06:33 AM
Well, at the moment it appears that I will be negative for Z205, thus CTS606 is off the table :(

I guess we have entered into the dreaded "*" stage of testing.

Baltimore1937
12-03-2014, 08:50 AM
Surname Joyce? Col. Joyce was commanding officer of the U.S. Army hospital in Augsburg, Germany while I was stationed there (1971-75). Does that have anything to do with anything? But it looks impressive.

irishcheese
12-03-2014, 09:48 PM
No problem Sam! It is still interesting information indeed :}.

Gray Fox
12-03-2014, 10:28 PM
I'm actually kind of glad it turned out that way. My Breton "cousin" is also in the same boat as he tested negative for Z205 as well. We've both invested a lot of energy into working up a connection for our two families and it was a bit disheartening for us both to consider that it was for nothing.

Alanson
12-04-2014, 05:05 AM
The Normans were Viking males who married French Gallo-Roman women, is from what I heard is this true?

Gray Fox
12-04-2014, 07:59 AM
The Normans were Viking males who married French Gallo-Roman women, is from what I heard is this true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans

Their contingents were taken from all over, so not all Normans were of Scandinavian heritage.

vettor
12-04-2014, 06:28 PM
The Normans were Viking males who married French Gallo-Roman women, is from what I heard is this true?

the normans came from denmark and norway, they took normandy and settled there.............they gave away their norse language, accept the customs and culture of the normans they conquered..............most likely they did not bring women with them in any large number.

The term mother-tongue is the term used for all town/cities/communities and regional languages/dialects ( there actually is no such thing as a language amongst professors of linguistics , they are all dialects ) because its a maternal language, taught my mothers to their children, ( fathers do not teach/influence their children very much in languages )................ if vikings brought a lot of women with them, this maternal language should have pockets of norse somewhere in normandy. We do not see it............we do see the germanic frankish influence in northern france due to a migration of franks into france ~800AD

so yes, I agree the viking norman men took gallo women as wives

rms2
12-05-2014, 12:08 PM
My impression is that the Vikings who settled in Normandy were never more than a relatively small military elite who did not have a very big genetic impact on the population of what is now Normandy. I know the Normandy Y-DNA Project, when I was running it, was pretty low on the y haplogroups that are usually thought of as typically Scandinavian, i.e., I-M253, R1b-U106, R1a.

The y-dna profile of Normandy looks pretty much like that of the rest of northern France: mostly R1b-L21, R1b-U152, R1b-DF27. In other words, the male population of Normandy was Gallo-Roman when the Vikings got there, and it stayed mostly Gallo-Roman after it assimilated them.

If one uses I-M253 (old "I1a") as a sign of Scandinavian influence (at least in part), he can see that the Vikings did not have a huge genetic impact on Normandy, at least based on this I-M253 distribution map from Rootsi et al's Phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroup I reveals distinct domains of prehistoric gene flow in Europe (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15162323).

3119

ph.
12-05-2014, 02:24 PM
And the Icelandic medieaval historical sources recount several instances where Norwegian kings, their kinsmen and followers use Rouen as a stopover (with what is stated as their relatives) when travelling. One paragraph tells of the father or grandfather of the earl of Normandy said he was so pleased to be able to speak (old)Norwegian again, since nobody there did.

Since that not even the palace of the earl kept his linguistic heritage it is unlikely that there was any central push for making people use the language. This is another indication that the numbers coming in for the invasion was small compared to the size of the population.

p.

alan
12-05-2014, 07:58 PM
I agree that the Viking element was probably very minor in Normandy. More importantly they were culturally Frankish and French speaking by the time of 1066. About 70 percent of Britain's land is still held by the descendants of William's army topped up by some big estates granted from the dissolved abbeys by Henry VIII etc.

alan
12-05-2014, 08:07 PM
It would be interesting to test to English upper class landed gentry but I think from reading a lot of records of landed estates they so frequently daughtered out and inheritance went through marriage - often with adoption of the wive's surname by the husband that it wouldnt be very coherent. Its interesting and kind of hard to explain it but the upper classes seem to have had problems reproducing compared to the uber breeders of Gaelic upper echelons. However, multiple sons were a problem in feudal primogeniture while it was a massive advantage in Gaelic society.

Gray Fox
12-05-2014, 09:30 PM
It would be interesting to test to English upper class landed gentry but I think from reading a lot of records of landed estates they so frequently daughtered out and inheritance went through marriage - often with adoption of the wive's surname by the husband that it wouldnt be very coherent. Its interesting and kind of hard to explain it but the upper classes seem to have had problems reproducing compared to the uber breeders of Gaelic upper echelons. However, multiple sons were a problem in feudal primogeniture while it was a massive advantage in Gaelic society.

That or the families fell out of prominence, such as mine.

TigerMW
12-06-2014, 01:10 AM
I agree that the Viking element was probably very minor in Normandy. More importantly they were culturally Frankish and French speaking by the time of 1066. About 70 percent of Britain's land is still held by the descendants of William's army topped up by some big estates granted from the dissolved abbeys by Henry VIII etc.
I recognize that there was a French language influence on English due to the Normans. Were the influences from what you are calling the Frankish element too?

I remember Henri Hubert's comment that the old French sounded like what you'd expect of a Gaul speaking Latin.


.. However, multiple sons were a problem in feudal primogeniture while it was a massive advantage in Gaelic society.

What was the advantage in Gaelic society? for fighting others rather than amongst your own family?

alan
12-06-2014, 05:30 AM
I recognize that there was a French language influence on English due to the Normans. Were the influences from what you are calling the Frankish element too?

I remember Henri Hubert's comment that the old French sounded like what you'd expect of a Gaul speaking Latin.



What was the advantage in Gaelic society? for fighting others rather than amongst your own family?

Basically in Gaelic society it was all about clans and offspring and numbers. It had a completely different land holding system where the basic block of lands belong collectively to the clan remained whole but within it it was regularly subdivided up to take into account the growth of the lineage and demise of the other. The chiefs were chosen on popularity/qualities from anyone who had a grandfather who had previously been a chief and they would get a mesnal estate within the lands but they didnt own the estate as a whole. Often the ordinary farmers would be distant cousins of the chief perhaps people who a few generations back had an ancestor who had been a chief but the succession had gone another way. The system was designed in a very different way from a father to eldest son intact private estate with serf as in the feudal world. In feudalism younger sons were a problem as they didnt inherit and they tended to be sent to the church, sent of crusade or they or their father had to somehow win or be granted new lands for them.

alan
12-06-2014, 05:39 AM
I recognize that there was a French language influence on English due to the Normans. Were the influences from what you are calling the Frankish element too?

I remember Henri Hubert's comment that the old French sounded like what you'd expect of a Gaul speaking Latin.



What was the advantage in Gaelic society? for fighting others rather than amongst your own family?

The Franks had fairly quickly become latinate on entering Gaul and also adopted a lot of the Gallo-Roman cultural traits or 'Romanitus'. The actual Franks also of course were in most of France a thin elite over the Gallo-Roman population but it seems over time they and the locals blended into one identity as French. The feudal system started to form among the Franks - from memory it was the Capetian kings who slowly rebuilt France using Feudal forms after a period of fission after the death of Charlemagne. One of the advantages that Feudalism had over the entirely patrilineal Gaelic system is that it allowed for the fusion of two territorial units by marriage.

aarmet
12-15-2014, 04:31 AM
Well, I definitely do believe there are ripe times to connect between France and Scotland. My own ancestors, Jean and Marie Armet popped up in Edinburgh when registering a child in 1680. It was right at the time when King Louis XIV issued the Edict of Fontainebleau, seizing the property of any who refused to convert to become Roman Catholic, when a million people fled France amid burning of churches etc. Google Books reports on frequent troubles of Huguenots in the years leading up to the big purge, including more than a few with my family name. I tracked a few including one minister who died in London, though could not track Jean and Marie further back. In the previous century, movement had been the other way, with large scale participation of Scottish mercenaries (10% of the adult male population) fighting in the 30 Years War over religion again, during the late 1500s. More than a few stayed on the continent after amassing significant wealth. Including some Irish as well.

Gray Fox
12-15-2014, 08:59 AM
Well, I definitely do believe there are ripe times to connect between France and Scotland. My own ancestors, Jean and Marie Armet popped up in Edinburgh when registering a child in 1680. It was right at the time when King Louis XIV issued the Edict of Fontainebleau, seizing the property of any who refused to convert to become Roman Catholic, when a million people fled France amid burning of churches etc. Google Books reports on frequent troubles of Huguenots in the years leading up to the big purge, including more than a few with my family name. I tracked a few including one minister who died in London, though could not track Jean and Marie further back. In the previous century, movement had been the other way, with large scale participation of Scottish mercenaries (10% of the adult male population) fighting in the 30 Years War over religion again, during the late 1500s. More than a few stayed on the continent after amassing significant wealth. Including some Irish as well.

Great to have another SRY2627 person aboard! Looks like both our lineages ultimately hail from France, though for very different reasons :)

CeltoTate
12-15-2014, 03:35 PM
Welcome aarmet! I agree with Sam, it is definitely nice to see another SRY2627 around, especially one of the R-CTS606 variety! That is unfortunate you were not able to trace Jean and Marie further back. R-CTS606, like its parent SRY2627, seems to be a very enigmatic group and is spread far and wide. It seems like majority of the present day population is located in France and Spain, followed by the British Isles (seems like there may be a mini-Scottish cluster); though I discovered on the Genographic website that there were also isolated hits in the Netherlands and Sweden.

Personally, I am in a rut as far as tracking my ancestry from the Isles to the United States. My Tates were fairly well documented after arriving in Virginia in the mid 17th century, though it appears I may be genetically distinct from my supposed line, as almost all other descendants have tested as U-152.

Gray Fox
01-01-2015, 05:29 AM
Something I didn't know.. Walt Disney's paternal line was introduced into Ireland via the Normans. The surname was originally derived from "d'Isigny" which itself was derived from Isigny-sur-Mer located in Normandy, France.

Webb
01-15-2015, 05:48 PM
Something I didn't know.. Walt Disney's paternal line was introduced into Ireland via the Normans. The surname was originally derived from "d'Isigny" which itself was derived from Isigny-sur-Mer located in Normandy, France.

I have a paternal great great greatgrandmother who was a Disney from Kentucky.

Gray Fox
01-15-2015, 07:02 PM
I have a paternal great great greatgrandmother who was a Disney from Kentucky.

There's a Disney road here in the back-roads of Pulaski. I'm assuming its named after someone with the surname. Do you know what area/county he was born in?

Webb
01-15-2015, 07:10 PM
There's a Disney road here in the back-roads of Pulaski. I'm assuming its named after someone with the surname. Do you know what area/county he was born in?

Elijah Disney married Sarah Miller in 1819, Knox County, Kentucky. The family ended up in Laurel, Kentucky.

Gray Fox
01-15-2015, 07:13 PM
Elijah Disney married Sarah Miller in 1819, Knox County, Kentucky. The family ended up in Laurel, Kentucky.

Yep, that's right next door to Pulaski. Probably some of your kin-folk!

Webb
01-15-2015, 07:20 PM
Yep, that's right next door to Pulaski. Probably some of your kin-folk!

The Tennessee Disney's are I-M170.

Helgenes50
01-15-2015, 07:38 PM
If you are interested.
Here are my K15 results


# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.91
2 North_Sea 31.65
3 West_Med 12.56
4 Baltic 7.98
5 Eastern_Euro 7.60
6 East_Med 2.92
7 West_Asian 2.49



--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southwest_English @ 6.062423
2 Southeast_English @ 6.699245
3 South_Dutch @ 7.574177
4 Irish @ 8.552782
5 West_Scottish @ 9.161456
6 French @ 9.658321
7 Orcadian @ 10.699735
8 North_German @ 10.822850
9 Danish @ 10.943417
10 North_Dutch @ 11.318829
11 West_German @ 12.473934
12 Spanish_Cataluna @ 15.426473
13 Norwegian @ 15.566179
14 West_Norwegian @ 16.351408
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.805851
16 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.004704
17 Swedish @ 17.093065
18 East_German @ 17.243433
19 Spanish_Cantabria @ 17.354856
20 Portuguese @ 17.559238


As you can see, a Norman is closer to a SW English than a French

Helgenes50
01-15-2015, 07:44 PM
If you are interested.
Here are my K15 results


# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.91
2 North_Sea 31.65
3 West_Med 12.56
4 Baltic 7.98
5 Eastern_Euro 7.60
6 East_Med 2.92
7 West_Asian 2.49



--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southwest_English @ 6.062423
2 Southeast_English @ 6.699245
3 South_Dutch @ 7.574177
4 Irish @ 8.552782
5 West_Scottish @ 9.161456
6 French @ 9.658321
7 Orcadian @ 10.699735
8 North_German @ 10.822850
9 Danish @ 10.943417
10 North_Dutch @ 11.318829
11 West_German @ 12.473934
12 Spanish_Cataluna @ 15.426473
13 Norwegian @ 15.566179
14 West_Norwegian @ 16.351408
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 16.805851
16 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.004704
17 Swedish @ 17.093065
18 East_German @ 17.243433
19 Spanish_Cantabria @ 17.354856
20 Portuguese @ 17.559238


As you can see, a Norman is closer to a SW English than a French

I forgot! my 4 grandparents are Norman

dp
01-15-2015, 08:06 PM
If you are interested.
Here are my K15 results
...

Thanks,
Welcome to Anthrogenica.
dp :-)

CeltoTate
02-25-2015, 10:52 PM
My Y-37 results finally came back this morning. It appears that I am not a close match with the Joyces, but apparently I have several matches with Welbourne, Wilborn, Welborn surnames within a GD of 1-3. I also share a DYS393=12 marker with the Welbournes, which from what I have read over the past hour, is pretty rare in western Europe and more typical of R1b ht35. Strange indeed since R-CTS606 falls under the greater P312/DF27 tree.

Gray Fox
02-28-2015, 11:26 AM
My Y-37 results finally came back this morning. It appears that I am not a close match with the Joyces, but apparently I have several matches with Welbourne, Wilborn, Welborn surnames within a GD of 1-3. I also share a DYS393=12 marker with the Welbournes, which from what I have read over the past hour, is pretty rare in western Europe and more typical of R1b ht35. Strange indeed since R-CTS606 falls under the greater P312/DF27 tree.

You may have posted it, but what was your str value for DYS392?

CeltoTate
02-28-2015, 07:40 PM
You may have posted it, but what was your str value for DYS392?

Hey Sam,

My DYS 392 is 13.

Gray Fox
03-02-2015, 11:38 PM
Hey Sam,

My DYS 392 is 13.

Ahh I see. The Joyces appear to have 14 repeats, like myself, at that value. Seems modal for them too. From what I've read it has a slow mutation rate.

In other news, I still appear to be stuck at base level SRY2627. Hopefully the price of these comprehensive y-tests will drop in the near future.

Also, I believe these two coats of arms may have something to do with my families connection to the Hamlyn's who originally inhabited the manor. They appear to be a combination of my coat of arms and the Hamlyn coat of arms.

3901

3902

Morges
03-10-2015, 11:28 AM
Is the high U106 in Catania (around 17%) related to the Normans?

Rory Cain
04-04-2015, 06:59 AM
...If there are distinct L21 clades that indicate Norman ancestry that are also found in Ireland...

That has been the hope of some, but no distinctively Norman L21 clade has been found, not when you wrote and not in the several years since.

TigerMW
04-05-2015, 02:11 PM
...If there are distinct L21 clades that indicate Norman ancestry that are also found in Ireland...
The Normans appear to be have been quite a mixed group. The Norman train that ran through Ireland may have picked up different peoples on the way. The Normans who left Normandy for England may not have had a lot of "Norse" in them, although surely would have had some.
The Cambro-Normans who entered Ireland were mixed even further making it difficult to tell who got on the train and where.
There are subclades of L21 that have ties to Cambro-Norman names, regions and practices. Some of these can also be found in Welsh and Scottish Marches as well as England.
Although L21 appears to be fairly thick in Normandy, I don't think we have a study of Normandy with enough depth in Y DNA testing to see if any align with the Irish Cambro-Norman subclades. A relationship of a Cambro-Norman descendant with a Normandy resident would be about 1000 years old so you need at least 67 STRs and later SNPs. Bronze Age SNPs like L21 and U106 are so old that doesn't help us make this link.


Is the high U106 in Catania (around 17%) related to the Normans?
It could be but since U106 appears to be fairly limited in Normandy it is hard to say there is much evidence for a U106 tie to the Normans (originating out of Normandy anyway).
On the other hand the Flemish were brought into England as allies of the Normans and the English intermarried resulting in Anglo-Norman families. U106 could easily have been injected at those points but I don't know if the Normans in England were part of the spread to places like Sicily.

Baltimore1937
04-06-2015, 07:20 AM
I wouldn't know about DNA stuff. But tracing the de Clare (includes Cambro-Normans) line back to Normandy shows mixing of Frankish/Flemish even back there in Normandy. And there is a whiff of possible Goth (Monaco, etc). But I didn't pursue that (entry or two at Ancestry). A daughter of Rollo married a prince of Monaco a few generations earlier than the point I went back to. Don't forget the Moors occupied southern France sometime back then. It could've driven one or more descendants back to Normandy. But I'm just speculating.

Baltimore1937
04-09-2015, 10:43 PM
I wouldn't know about DNA stuff. But tracing the de Clare (includes Cambro-Normans) line back to Normandy shows mixing of Frankish/Flemish even back there in Normandy. And there is a whiff of possible Goth (Monaco, etc). But I didn't pursue that (entry or two at Ancestry). A daughter of Rollo married a prince of Monaco a few generations earlier than the point I went back to. Don't forget the Moors occupied southern France sometime back then. It could've driven one or more descendants back to Normandy. But I'm just speculating.

Now I'm not so sure. I can't seem to re-locate that source about Monaco. Most sources at Ancestry at this point (person) just has the expected ancestors, one line of which goes back to Charlemagne.

Rory Cain
04-10-2015, 11:04 AM
I was howled down on another thread for even mentioning Rollo's pedigree, which I understand would make him haplogroup R1a like his alleged kinfolks. But so many alleged descendants exist with so many different haplogroups that it seems Rollo can be anything one wants him to be.

I don't know about Charlemagne specifically but suspect the situation may be similar.?

GTC
04-10-2015, 12:13 PM
Speaking of Rollo, I wonder what happened to this proposed project?

Explico people went through a long purgatory courtesy of the French bureaucracy, finally got the necessary permissions and since then ... silence:


November 2012
We are currently planning our goals and projects for 2013. They include DNA collections in the Caucasus mountains, the opening of graves in Normandy (Rollo) and Italy (Hauteville family) ...

http://explicofund.org/caucasus-dna-expedition-2012/

Baltimore1937
04-11-2015, 12:22 AM
I suspect lots of people are connected to Charlemagne, and just don't know it. I've read that there is no longer a direct male line. In my case, it toggles back and forth between males and females along the way. Back when I thought I was connected to King John (Plantagenet) via my direct maternal line, I traced him back to Charlemagne via William-the-Conqueror's Flemish wife > Capet connection. This time it goes back via another pathway to Lothar II > Lothar I > Louis "The Pious" > Charlemagne himself. He had more than one wife/concubines.

rms2
04-11-2015, 06:55 PM
That has been the hope of some, but no distinctively Norman L21 clade has been found, not when you wrote and not in the several years since.

Should we expect a distinctively Norman L21 clade? Normandy is a pretty small place. Have any other distinctively Norman clades of any other y haplogroups been found? If not, why should we demand that of L21?

Baltimore1937
04-12-2015, 03:26 AM
It looks like Roolo's paternal lineage goes back ultimately to Sweden (Uppsala), via Oppland/Hedmark in Norway. But that is just from browsing in the internet. His father was Jarl of More og Romsdal, near Trondheim. One pedigree shows his family tree as going back to God (Odin). That was around the 200s A.D. Ha ha.

falconson1
04-12-2015, 02:43 PM
My paternal grandfather was born in Norwich, Norfolk, England. He said we were Norman (not the more popular "Huguenots"). I can trace the family back to 1380 in Suffolk at which time the surname was spelled Falke. Falke became Faulkes / Faux in the 1500s as seen in the Manorial Records. The surname Falke was found in Sweden and Denmark in Viking times - now mostly Prussia. My haplogroup is R1b - U152 - L2 - L20. Not diagnostic though. It is found in Normandy, but also locations as dispersed as Central Norway to the Italian Alps through Germany to Bouges France, north to Brittany, and west to Portugal.

There is more clarity with the de Mundefords. Dorothy de Mundeford married John Fawkes of Mundford, and her ancestry has been fairly easy to document (the coat of arms are quartered with the surnames I found in my research). I have traced a few lines, without a break (although NPE ??), to various Normans mentioned by the historians of the time. Just as an example, Robert de Tosny came over from Tosny on the Seine River with William the Conqueror. The Norman historians said he was descended from Malhud, the uncle of Rollo. He built Belvoir (pronounced "Beaver" by the English) Castle. His remains encased in a stone coffin with his name etched on it were taken from the ruined priory on the estate to repose in the Castle Chapel where they remain to this day. Surely it would not be out of place to ask for just one tooth to subject to DNA analysis .................

I have always found it intriguing that I have the same pattern of inheritance back to Robert de Tosny as the present occupant of the Castle, the 10th Duke of Rutland. If the inheritance had been via the youngest daughter not the eldest daughter, I would be the present day Duke. I call myself the "almost 10th Duke of Rutland" which buys be nothing other than odd stares.

castle3
04-12-2015, 09:16 PM
A note of caution: Beryl Platts' 'Scottish Hazard' vol 2 page 89 states that the Tony (sic) family belonged to 'a coterie of noble Flemings exiled from Hainaut' (Flanders). They settled in the Seine Valley. She, unlike other writers, actually researched the earlier Flemish roots of many supposed purely Norman families. Both her volumes on the subject of Flemings in Scotland are well worth scrutinizing.

falconson1
04-13-2015, 01:57 AM
A note of caution: Beryl Platts' 'Scottish Hazard' vol 2 page 89 states that the Tony (sic) family belonged to 'a coterie of noble Flemings exiled from Hainaut' (Flanders). They settled in the Seine Valley. She, unlike other writers, actually researched the earlier Flemish roots of many supposed purely Norman families. Both her volumes on the subject of Flemings in Scotland are well worth scrutinizing.

I have sifted through a mountain of sources, and have learned to trust (with some reservations) the work of 12th Century Norman historians such as Orderic Vitalis and Guillaume de Jumieres. Since I speak and read French I have also tapped into the work of various French academics. I feel quite confident in the attributions of Vitalis, Jumieres and others - although you are correct, one source did speculate on a Flanders connection for the man who others say is a grandson of Malahule de More.

Baltimore1937
04-13-2015, 02:38 AM
Now I'm not so sure. I can't seem to re-locate that source about Monaco. Most sources at Ancestry at this point (person) just has the expected ancestors, one line of which goes back to Charlemagne.

Looking closer at entries at Ancestry, I see where I got confused regarding the Monaco connection. There was more than one husband. My direct connection is not to Monaco. Her (Hawise/Heloise de Guines) second husband was Crispinus Ansgothus, whose father was Grimaldus de Monaco, who married a daughter of Rollo (Crispina de Normandie, 920-1002).

Rory Cain
04-13-2015, 05:33 AM
Should we expect a distinctively Norman L21 clade? Normandy is a pretty small place. Have any other distinctively Norman clades of any other y haplogroups been found? If not, why should we demand that of L21?


The case of the disappearing Normans?

GTC
04-13-2015, 06:33 AM
I have sifted through a mountain of sources, and have learned to trust (with some reservations) the work of 12th Century Norman historians such as Orderic Vitalis and Guillaume de Jumieres. Since I speak and read French I have also tapped into the work of various French academics. I feel quite confident in the attributions of Vitalis, Jumieres and others - although you are correct, one source did speculate on a Flanders connection for the man who others say is a grandson of Malahule de More.

Thank you for that.

Whenever the subject of the Normans arises on English language sites such as this one, I have to wonder how much information and opinion is being missed out on because the contents of French language texts are not being added to the discussion.

Gray Fox
04-13-2015, 10:02 AM
Regarding the language barrier. I have been lucky to have had a very kind and patient Breton gentleman to help with the language issue. I've seen books and sources of information that I likely would not have been able to make much use of, had I even found them, thanks to him.

Of course the biggest hurdle has yet to be cleared. We still haven't found the individual who both connects us and is actually of Breton/Norman descent. Neither of us can get past the 18th century as far as reliable paper trails are concerned. So, I've been wrestling with the fact that the magic documents are likely lost if they ever existed at all.

I've lost a good deal of faith in the theory that I originally proposed in the opening post. The evidence is still fairly sound, but without the smoking gun, there isn't much use in making the claim. An ancient Gaulish/Belgae man crossing the channel into Britain was always more appealing to me anyways and would better explain the distance between myself and the Breton.

Baltimore1937
04-13-2015, 11:36 AM
I more or less gave up tracing my direct maternal line (U5b2b2). Only my maternal grandmother's ancestry has to do with the possible Norman ancestry that we're talking about here. To narrow it down, it's mostly my maternal great-grandfather's line (Green/Greene). It apparently goes back to the second colonial governor of Maryland, then goes back and connects to other ancestors that originated in Normandy. The direct male descendants of Rollo should have his Y-DNA. I'm interested in the DeClare line. But they must have died out. I don't see that specific surname in The Peerage. But I only skimmed it.

http://www.thepeerage.com/index.htm

falconson1
04-13-2015, 02:32 PM
To do generation by generation genealogical work to trace a Norman connection, it will be rare indeed to have the thing handed on a silver platter.

I have had two distinct groups of Norman ancestors to research - those in my paternal surname line (Norfolk, England) and my maternal surname line (Shetland Islands, Scotland - formerly Norway). As an "old fashioned" genealogist, I need to travel backwards from myself to the earliest ancestors that will surface. Through a combination of luck, and the fact that aristocratic and hence Norman families tend to be relatively well documented, it is not an impossible task to arrive at Norman times (although if you find a half dozen lines that are securely documented back 1000 or more years, that would probably be the best one might expect.

The Shetland Islands are interesting in that the younger sons of aristocratic families such as the Stewarts, Bruce and Sinclair families were sent there as representatives of the Crown (charged with the role of tax collectors). Thus unless there was an NPE, a Stewart or any of the aristocratic surnames likely descend from the Kings Court in Edinburgh, Stirling or Rosslyn (for example). On paper I am a descendant of 5 Sinclair lineages, but only one of which I can trace without any break back to the builders of Rosslyn Castle. I am the project admin for the Shetland Islands Y-DNA Project, and so have the opportunity to see the matches of say a Shetland Stewart with others. Indeed, the Shetland haplotypes match many Stewarts even from the American South. In this instance I trust the genealogy to the "Islands genealogist" who maintains a database on all families born in Shetland, and has used the available paper trail to document each as far back as possible - and in some cases that means to the Kings of Scotland.

My paternal family provides more challenges. However if one is lucky (as I have been), you will find an ancestor in the Heraldic Visitations of the 1500s where the lineage of aristocratic families has been published. It is here that I learned that John Fawkes gent. of Mundford married Dorothy de Mundeford, whose published line goes back in these records to the 1100s. It is still necessary to verify this data since the heralds seem to have had a propensity to miss a complete generation - plus other errors. This is where the Manorial Records (in Latin) come into play. Fortunately for those of Norfolk descent, in the 1700s Francis Blomfield published a history of each parish (over 900) in a multi volume set that once entailed a visit to the large public library in Toronto to access - but they are now online. Here Blomfield describes the wording in Manorial Records, Pipe Rolls or other documents to trace forward from the original Lord of the Manor in Norman times (there were often 4 per parish) to the date of publication. Here I was able to connect the Herald's Visitation records with the manorial data to see how for example the properties (usually going to the eldest son, but if only daughters, then to the eldest) went through 4 Sir Thomas de Ingaldethorpes to a daughter Sybill who married John de Mundeford. Going back de Mundeford lands were inherited from the de Beaufour and de Tosny families and often there were detailed descriptions of the lands in 3 or more counties. Understanding the life and times, which for example involved extensive donations to priories (to save the soul), and burial in priory lands created records which can be integrated with those noted earlier. Anyway, this gives a sense of how one gets back far enough to reach the writings of Norman historians such as Vitalis and de Jumieres to piece together a fairly air tight genealogy. Of course I worry about NPEs and the like, but everyone working in this field has to assume that it did not occur in your particular line - otherwise what is the point. I can prove that there were no "irregularities" in my "Y line" thanks to testing 8th cousins, but before then one has to adopt the attitude that the behaviour for the earlier 8 generations would also be "uncluttered" with NPEs. Of course the recent genealogical and DNA work to identify the remains of King Richard III (of carpark fame) has shown that NPEs were a distinct possibility in any family line extending back so many generations. Despite this, I know that at least on paper, I have multiple secure lineages that reach Normandy, and also most of the Royal families of Europe. I fully acknowledge that we can not know if the DNA end of things is as it seems, but I stand by my genealogical work (or that of others whom I trust and whose work I can verify should I chose).

David K.

rms2
04-13-2015, 03:46 PM
The case of the disappearing Normans?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the fact remains that evidently R1b-L21 is the most frequent y haplogroup in Normandy, and that is not likely the result of migration from the Isles. So, if Isles families claiming Norman ancestry with some reasonable genealogical support happen to be L21+ in their y lines, I see no good reason to doubt them based solely on their y haplogroup. In fact, given the frequency of L21 in Normandy, Norman ancestry and an L21+ result are to be expected.

Rory Cain
04-13-2015, 09:00 PM
...if Isles families claiming Norman ancestry with some reasonable genealogical support...

Good enough. Happy with that rider being added. That would rule out some unlikely claims that appear little more than wishful thinking, while retaining others that appear more realistic.

Baltimore1937
04-13-2015, 09:11 PM
In my Green branch going back to England, and radiating out into other surname lines, I have both St. Clair and DeClare separately. It looks like there never was a "Clare" in Normandy. It started with the earliest baron or earl in Tonbridge, Kent or in Suffolk. It may have derived from Clermont in Normandy. I connect to DeClare via a daughter of Sir Thomas de Clare: Margaret, 1287 Clare, Ireland to 1333 in Kent. That DeClare line goes back to Richard I "The Fearless" Duke of Normandy.

rms2
04-14-2015, 05:49 PM
Good enough. Happy with that rider being added. That would rule out some unlikely claims that appear little more than wishful thinking, while retaining others that appear more realistic.

Oh, I agree. I was the one who started the Normandy Y-DNA Project and ran it for its first couple of years (not because I claim Norman y line ancestry for myself - I don't). Believe me, I know about bogus claims and Norman wannabeism. That was one of the reasons I passed that torch onto someone else. When I was running the project, I mostly restricted the Norman category to persons of actual Norman French ancestry, i.e., Frenchmen and French Canadians whose Norman ancestry was so recent they could prove it.

And most of them were L21+.

Disclaimer: I am not knocking anyone's claim of Norman ancestry. If you have the genealogical and/or genetic evidence for such a claim, great. Some people do.

Baltimore1937
04-14-2015, 09:40 PM
Well, I'm kind of Aspergery, if you know what I mean. I'm not seeking approval. I'm just putting out what I see at a particular time. I'm evolving. My trees/research trees change over time, or are discarded. This reminds me of bird watching. People seem to expect me to seek their approval in order to claim a rarity. But I am my own sovereign individual, and I am honest with myself.

rms2
04-15-2015, 11:20 AM
I wasn't criticizing anyone's claim of Norman ancestry. What I was talking about was all of the claims of Norman Conquest ancestry I had to sort through when I was the admin of the Normandy Y-DNA Project and the fact that about 99.9% of them were completely without substance or support. There were many people who joined that project simply because they read on one of those surname sites that their surname had been brought to the Isles by the Normans. That was it.

I've read the same thing about my own surname, but I don't really believe it, and besides, I can't get my y-dna line past my 3rd great-grandfather, who was born in West Virginia in 1804.

Baltimore1937
04-16-2015, 06:50 AM
This line that I'm claiming is not my R1a line. It is merely one line out of several radiating out from my maternal grandmother (her father). It took me years to feel comfortable with being connected to Governor Thomas Green(e) of colonial Maryland. There are many other Greens in Maryland. But I have at least two DNA matches (with their trees) at Ancestry that seem to confirm that connection. I have a back up tree (less extensive) at My Heritage. And I have many matches notifications there from that line back in Medieval times, including from Australia. So lots of distant cousins.

Baltimore1937
04-19-2015, 11:45 AM
I've only lately been tracing this Green line. Actually it should be called the Norton line. There was an apparently unknown mistress being the mother of a Norton son way back there somewhere. And that son changed his name to Green. That Norton line goes way back to France, but I haven't really looked into it that far back. Along the way, was a French wife from Poitou-Charente. Her dad, or something like that (I'll check it later) was born in Acre, Levant. His mother was an aristocrat from Spain (Leon-Castile),and apparently was there in the crusade. Now Ancestry gives me 4% Iberian Peninsula. Is it possible to inherit Iberian from that far back? Anyway, this is a work in progress.

later: Well, I just added a King to my Green (Norton) line. King Alfonso IX of Leon & Galicia. That is just taking the above back another generation. Peeking further back in time, I saw Eleanor of Aquitaine. I dropped King John, but can sneak in the back door again - ha ha.

Gray Fox
04-19-2015, 11:12 PM
Not sure, but I may have discovered a potential ancestor. I'll occasionally Google "Isaac of Buriatte/Atherington/Barnstaple etc." and this morning something interesting turned up. I searched for Isaac of Barnstaple and discovered an Isaac listed as the Archdeacon for the Barnstaple church, with his service ending in 1227. This is highly speculative and I'm very weary of claiming it as anything other than coincidence. But there is a possibility that this individual is where the surname is derived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archdeacon_of_Barnstaple

Gray Fox
05-12-2015, 10:38 PM
I've made contact with a woman whose grandfather is of the same Isaac family that my cousin (with recent roots to Whitestone, Devon) descends from. Hopefully she can convince her grandfather to test. She has the family going back to 1750 in Coldridge, Devon. She also mentioned something of a family legend that the Isaac's were originally from Cornwall. Not sure if that has any weight to it, but it is an interesting possibility.

SwampThing27
05-12-2015, 10:42 PM
Have any of you who are familiar with Norman history/ancestry, etc ever come across the surname Ward? I once read that it was Norman, but have also read that it was from pre-Norman England as well.

Baltimore1937
05-13-2015, 12:54 AM
Have any of you who are familiar with Norman history/ancestry, etc ever come across the surname Ward? I once read that it was Norman, but have also read that it was from pre-Norman England as well.

Yeah, I recently saw the name Ward in my browsings at Ancestry. But I'm clueless as to just where it was. It may have been in England, however.

later: (My WiFi connection is slow). OK, I just took a peek at where I thought I saw the Ward surname. I pushed my Webb side line back one generation, and lo and behold, I have a Ward there! It is Lady Lydia Ward, 1427 Little Wratting, Suffolk, died 1498 Brereton, Cheshire. She was married to Sir Thomas Brereton, 1420-1505 of Brereton, Cheshire.

Helgenes50
05-14-2015, 09:01 AM
The best way I found, as Norman, to use the 4Mix ( the new toy of Eurogenes)
I try to understand my differences with the French.

As Norman, I am less neolithic
That is confirmed in these results, with the modern populations and the ancient genomes

Norman *= 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% Bedouin @ D = 0.048
Norman= 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% LBK_EN @ D = 0.048
Norman = 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% Spain_EN @ D = 0.048
Norman = 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% Tuscan @ D = 0.048
Norman = 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% Spanish_Cantabria @ D = 0.048
Norman = 15% French + 82% French + 3% French + 0% Sardinian @ D = 0.048

And now my Nordic and my IE Ancestry via my German or Scandinavian Ancestors
Once more, the results speak for themselves
( I live in a region settled by the Danish, English, Batavian,Saxons...)

First, the ancient genomes

Norman= 8% French + 75% French + 2.99999999999999% French + 14% Corded_Ware_LN @ D = 0.0405
Norman = 26% French + 63% French + 5% French + 5.99999999999999% Yamnaya @ D = 0.0441

and now with the modern populations

Norman = 0% French + 58% French + 4.99999999999999% French + 37% Norwegian @ D = 0.0198
Norman = 3% French + 29% French + 35% French + 33% Swedish @ D = 0.0171
Norman = 0% French + 11% French + 29% French + 60% Dutch @ D = 0.0204
Norman = 0% French + 2% French + 34% French + 64% SW_English @ D = 0.0167
Norman = 0% French + 4% French + 34% French + 62% SE_English @ D = 0.0172

* French=the national average, Norman ( the target) are my personnal results

Baltimore1937
05-14-2015, 09:10 AM
Some of so called Norman are probably from elsewhere in France. I notice one line I've been following seems to go back to Clermont (central France). But I haven't gotten into really investigating that line. Another line goes back to Aquitaine. Then a connection with Champagne is connected to Spain. Even Rollo's wife was not Scandinavian, but Carolingian.

Helgenes50
05-14-2015, 10:07 AM
1/3 of the conquest Army in 1066, was composed of Normans.
Next to them, a great number of Britons( Brittany) and Flemish

jbarry6899
05-14-2015, 01:10 PM
1/3 of the conquest Army in 1066, was composed of Normans.
Next to them, a great number of Britons( Brittany) and Flemish

My "Anglo-Norman-Irish" ancestors, the Barrys, were probably from Flanders. William's wife Matilda was the daughter of Baldwin V, Count of Flanders and a number of Flemish knights participated in the 1066 invasion.

John Doe
05-14-2015, 02:06 PM
Apparently the remains of a Norman knight were found beneath the remains of a cathedral in England, wonder if it's possible to extract some DNA from the corpse.

RVBLAKE
06-29-2016, 08:00 PM
I don't know how many Branches I added to my Ancestry Tree involving European royalty, only to find they were false. Now I don't add anyone any earlier than the beginning of the 17th Century...That's where I've found that wishful thinking replaces fact.

RVBLAKE
06-29-2016, 08:07 PM
Bryan Sykes, in his book (I forgot the title) about the ethnic mix of the English, says that the English are more Celtic than before thought.

Theconqueror
06-30-2016, 01:22 PM
Don't discard these claims so fast. I am Canadian and my paternal and maternal lines go back to the 1100s (Normandy and Paris). I have many close matches that have Anglo-Norman surnames.


I wasn't criticizing anyone's claim of Norman ancestry. What I was talking about was all of the claims of Norman Conquest ancestry I had to sort through when I was the admin of the Normandy Y-DNA Project and the fact that about 99.9% of them were completely without substance or support. There were many people who joined that project simply because they read on one of those surname sites that their surname had been brought to the Isles by the Normans. That was it.

I've read the same thing about my own surname, but I don't really believe it, and besides, I can't get my y-dna line past my 3rd great-grandfather, who was born in West Virginia in 1804.

Celt_??
07-07-2016, 02:34 PM
@thetick - Post deleted. Found the answer to my question.

Edward J
07-07-2016, 03:05 PM
Is there any indication of specific MtDNA haplogroups of Normans?

Sikeliot
07-07-2016, 04:09 PM
I know very little about Normans, but I know they did not leave much DNA in Sicily nor in the Levant through the Crusades -- maybe 2-3% in SOME western Sicilians and Lebanese Muslims.