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aruas
06-11-2018, 02:20 PM
Hi all, I just found out this forum.

I'm an east Asian with R2a* (L266) haplopgroup which looks like very rare.

I've been searching around but still got not much information about this type of haplopgroup.

And the last post here was from last year, is there any new progress for R2a?

aaronbee2010
06-16-2018, 01:19 AM
Hey aruas,

I don't think I've seen anything newer on R2a than whats on this forum to be honest. I should mention that L266 is an SNP currently associated with R2 (R-M479), not R2a (R-M124) according to the 2018 ISOGG Tree as well as the YFull YTree however it was previously associated with R2a in the past. Do you know any other positive Y-SNP's you've been tested for by any chance?

Also, it's nice to see somebody who's M479+ on this forum! There's not that many of us it seems :(

Edit: R2 originated around Central Asia as far as I know so it's not too unusual to see how there would be a small handful of M479+ people who made their way to East Asia. There is also a history of West Asian Muslim immigration to China as well. Do you know if you have any Central/West Asian autosomal DNA at all?

aruas
06-16-2018, 09:11 PM
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for replying.
I only tested at 23andme and it is all I got with no further downstream.
I know there are quite some west Asian Muslim descendants in China as well as some native Turkic-ethnic muslim minorities in west part of China. From what I found, they do have a little bit of R2. But I think it might be a different case (source) for me.
First I need to mention that I'm Mongolian ethnic. And after knowing that I'm R2, I dug a bit further and found some previous research about my people. Due to historical reason, Mongolian people are a combination of different tribes/clans and spread mainly in three countries(Mongolia, China, Russia). In general, it is not common to find R2 in Mongolian people (R1 is kind of common though). However for Kalmyk people (a group of mongolian-ethnic people living in Russia), there are quite some R2 and they are mainly from one tribe. It's like ~15% in that tribe comparing to 1~2% in other tribes of Kalmyk. The papers I read were very rough about this result. Look at the history, Kalmyk people were originated in Siberia (about 1000 years ago around Baikal lake area) , then they migrated to central Asia and finally moved to Caucasus about 400 hundreds years ago. They grew bigger and got more tribes during the migration. But not all of them moved, large portion of the people remained in the west part of China (central asia) and west of Mongolia. I'm from those part. And very interestingly my tribe and the tribe with high R2 in Kalmyk have very close relation , they shared same root. So it is very likely I got the same R2 with them. And this could veto the idea that they got the R2 during migration from central asia to caucasus. But that's not all, surprisingly I found out that in current Siberia (Baikal lake area), the local mongolian-ethnic people which called Buryat have also a bit of R2. Historically, we were living together and fight together but that was before we moved to central asia. Then the question rose that could this R2 was actually from Siberia and not during the migration? Then I found this discussion[1] which looking at the STR in detail and gave the following conclusion
the Buryat and Kalmyk R2a haplotypes display a striking degree of exclusivity from other Eurasian R2a's and match each other well enough to conclude a recent mutual ancestor pre-dates the two and was likely a native of the region, probably around Genghis Khan's era.
If this is true, the migration of R2 to Siberia could be older. But I don’t know why it’s not showed up in other local siberia ethnic group or along the way from central asia to siberia.
Anyway, that’s what I got so far with my rough knowledge. Please correct me for any wrongs.

sorry to original author, I'm not allowed to post link here. There were two sources of this discussion, i don't know if they were posted by same person. 1.forumbiodiversity_com user: Humata 2.vaedhya_blogspot_com
[1]

Of Buryats and Kalmyks: The R2a connection [Original Work]
Introduction
The following is an investigation I conducted of the Y-DNA R2a-M124 Siberians found in Ancient links between Siberians and Native Americans revealed by subtyping the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a;

"To investigate the structure of Y chromosome haplogroups R-M207 and Q-M242 in human populations of North Asia, we have performed high-resolution genotyping using both single nucleotide polymorphisms and short tandem repeat (STR)-based approaches of 121 M207- and M242-derived samples from 885 males of 16 ethnic groups of Siberia and East Asia. As a result, the following Y chromosome haplogroups were revealed: R1b1b1-M73 (2.0%), R1b1b2-M269 (0.7%), R2-M124 (1.1%)..."


Supplementary information can be found here.

The 10 R2a-M124 individuals were either Buryat (4/10) or Kalmyk (6/10), two Mongolic-speaking populations living in the Republic of Buryatia (South Siberia) and Republic of Kalmykia (northwest Caspian coast) respectively. It is worth noting, however, the Kalmyk sample was probably not from Kalmykia given the authors specified their participants were "...from 885 males of 16 ethnic groups of Siberia and East Asia". Thus, the results of the investigation (and the R2a-specific analysis here) may not be applicable to the Kalmyk majority of Kalmykia.

R2a haplotypes
All the R2a Siberians belonged to the same 12 STR haplotype apart from two Buryats, whose haplotype differed from the others only by a 1-step mutation at DYS389II (16 -> 17). Adjacent is a spreadsheet comparing the Buryat and Kalmyk haplotypes with raw data from the R2 FTDNA Project, which contains 62 participants who have tested to 67 markers. A legend can be found on the bottom of the attached comparison. Please also note that DYS389II in this instance is the sum between DYS389I+II found on the spreadsheet, as per the standard used by SMGF and FTDNA (DYS389II should've really been called DYS389B!).

Results

The paucity of 12/12 matches (or even 1/2-step) alone indicate these Siberian R2a's are divergent to the R2 project participants beyond the genealogical time frame. Therefore, we can already surmise none of the Jewish, Iranian, Indian, European or Near-Eastern R2a's in the project are recently related to them.
Deeper analysis of the Buryat and Kalmyk haplotypes through McGee's Y-Utility reveals the MCRA (Most Common Recent Ancestor) was roughly 900 years ago based on the single one-step mutation on DYS389ii (Infinite allele mutation model, 30 years/gen, constant mutation rate of 0.0024). This date (~1100 A.D.) coincides with the rise of Mongolian steppe dominance and falls just short of Genghis Khan's reign. Based on the above, it is likely the haplotype differentiation happened in historical times and the common ancestor was a native of the region.
Comparing the Buryat and Kalmyk haplotypes with the R2 project participants with the Y-Utility again demonstrates their great divergence. The earliest match to both is a Syrian paternal ancestor (1530-2190 y.b.p.). All other matches are invariably between 2970-7530 y.b.p. with little geographical coherency. This is likely an artefact of the limited number of STR's.


Summary
Although the number of STR's has limited the scope of this investigation, the Buryat and Kalmyk R2a haplotypes display a striking degree of exclusivity from other Eurasian R2a's and match each other well enough to conclude a recent mutual ancestor pre-dates the two and was likely a native of the region, probably around Genghis Khan's era. The twelve STR's alone have safely shown that R2a in Siberia is not of recent South Asian origins, indicating a greater antiquity in Siberia as well as Central Asia, which is presumably the source location.

Additional

Phylogenetic tree showing degree of relatedness between Buryat and Buryat-Kalmyk haplotypes relative to the R2a FTDNA Project participants on the 12 STR's used in this investigation (shown opposite). FITCH and FigTree used to generate. Special thanks to vineviz for elaborating on their application. Inferences should be made with plenty of caution given the low number of STR's, but it is interesting to see the Syrian match appear again.

Through this investigation I have inadvertently coined a "Mongolian" R2a Haplotype (i.e. mutual Buryat and Kalmyk) defined by the following STR's;


DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS437 DYS43814 23 14 10 12-19 10 12 10 16 11


In a study by Nasidze et al. on 99 Kalmyk men, the exact same haplotype shown above was observed. Although the earlier (justified) warning of this investigation's results being extrapolated onto the Kalmyk's living in Kalmykia, it was clearly without merit; the Republic of Kalmykia R2a haplotype is an exact match with the Mongolian one identified here. Therefore, at least some of the R2a found in Kalmykia is a direct import from Siberia rather than nearby sources, such as the Caucasus.

Through this independent investigation, I have demonstrated that the antiquity of R2a outside the Indian Subcontinent is very understated and haplogroups existing at background frequencies may have their own interesting stories to tell.

aaronbee2010
06-19-2018, 07:06 PM
Hey aruas,

23andme's haplogroup assignment is quite bad for some people who are M479+ (my haplogroup assignment on 23andme is R-M207, which is a far cry from LivingDNA's assignment (R-Y1383)) so I would recommend downloading your raw data file and uploading it to MorleyDNA's Y-SNP subclade predictor and seeing if you tested positive for M124 (23andme do test for M124 but nothing below it). MorleyDNA use an outdated tree but the main thing is seeing if you're positive for M124 or not.

For autosomal DNA analysis I would recommend uploading the raw data file to GEDmatch (if you did a recent test on 23andme's v5 chip you will need to upload through genesis.GEDmatch) and looking at admixture (heritage) with a database like Eurogenes K13 or even uploading to wegene (who specialise in East Asian autosomal DNA)

As for the studies you've shared, it's interesting to see an R2a Y-STR haplotype so far from all the others (possibly a new branch of R2a alltogether?) This would suggest (to a novice like me anyway) that this is quite an ancient subclade of R2a considering these Siberian/Mongolic men seem to be located around opposite ends of the supposed origin of R2a (Eurasian steppe) to the majority of R2a men located in South and West Asia, suggesting to me that South/West Asian and Mongolic/Siberian R2a men are very far apart in relation.

Tomasso29
06-25-2018, 01:51 AM
Welcome aruas, I see that you already found the studies that link up R2a to Mongolians. You should also try testing with family tree dna, you can figure out your STRs there, check out the R2 WTY project, there are a few similar Asians such as Kazakhs, Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Tatars:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY?iframe=yresults