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nuplix
06-13-2018, 10:28 AM
Harappan site of Rakhigarhi: DNA study finds no Central Asian trace, junks Aryan invasion theory


By Anubhuti Vishnoi ET Bureau|Updated: Jun 13, 2018, 12.24 PM IST


The much-awaited DNA study of the skeletal remains found at the Harappan site of Rakhigarhi, Haryana, shows no Central Asian trace, indicating the Aryan invasion theory was flawed and Vedic evolution was through indigenous people.

The lead researchers1 of this soon-tobe published study — Vasant Shinde and Neeraj Rai — told ETthat this establishes the knowledge ecosystem in the Vedic era was guided by “fully indigenous” people with limited “external contact”.

“The Rakhigarhi human DNA clearly shows a predominant local element — the mitochondrial DNA is very strong in it. There is some minor foreign element which shows some mixing up with a foreign population, but the DNA is clearly local,” Shinde told ET. He went on to add: “This indicates quite clearly, through archeological data, that the Vedic era that followed was a fully indigenous period with some external contact.”

According to Shinde’s findings, the manner of burial is quite similar to the early Vedic period, also known as the Rigvedic Era. The pottery, the brick type used for construction and the general ‘good health’ of the people ascertained through the skeletal remains in Rakhigarhi, he said, pointed to a well-developed knowledge system that evolved further into the Vedic era. The study has, in fact, noted that some burial rituals observed in the Rakhigarhi necropolis prevail even now in some communities, showing a remarkable continuity over thousands of years.

Shinde, who is the vice-chancellor of the Deccan College, Pune, was the lead archaeologist in the study while Rai, who is the head of the ancient DNA laboratory at Lucknow’s Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeosciences, did the DNA study.

MINOR TRACES OF IRANIAN STRAINS
According to Rai, the evidence points to a predominantly indigenous culture that voluntarily spread across other areas, not displaced or overrun by an Aryan invasion. “The condition of the human skeletons, the burial...all show absence of palaeo-pathology symptoms which could indicate ailments due to lack of medical care. The persons here were healthy; denture morphology showed teeth free of any infection; bones are healthy, as is the cranium,” Rai told ET.

He also discounted the notion of any violent conflict. “There are no cuts and marks which would be associated with a population subjected to warfare. All this indicates that the people were receiving well-developed healthcare and had full-fledged knowledge systems.” The excavations in Rigvedic phase, he said, corroborate this. “This points to greater continuity rather than to a new Aryan race descending and bringing superior knowledge systems to the region,” Rai said.

The Rakhigarhi study, he said, while showing absence of any Central Asian/Steppe element in the genetic make-up of the Harappan people, does indicate minor traces of Iranian strains which may point to contact, not invasion.

The Aryan invasion theory holds forth that a set of migrants came from Central Asia armed with superior knowledge and arms and invaded the existing settlements to establish a more sophisticated civilisation in India and pushed the original inhabitants down south. Rakhigarhi is one of the biggest Harappan civilisation sites spread across 300 hectares in Hisar, Haryana. It’s estimated to be 6,000 years old and was part of the mature phase of the Harappan period.

Rai disclosed that 148 independent skeletal elements from Rakhigarhi were screened for the presence of DNA molecules at the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad. Of the 148 skeletal remains, only two samples yielded any relevant DNA material.

Meanwhile, hectic last-minute efforts are on to get additional genetic details of the DNA material. One of the DNA samples recently faced contamination in a Seoul laboratory and efforts are on to segregate it. Samples were sent to laboratories in Seoul and Harvard for establishing accuracy. The contamination, Rai said, is unlikely to have any major bearing on the study’s primary findings.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/harappan-site-of-rakhigarhi-dna-study-finds-no-central-asian-trace-junks-aryan-invasion-theory/articleshow/64565413.cms

What do you guys think? :\

Megalophias
06-13-2018, 01:15 PM
Well the actual genetic results seem to be: there are 2 samples (maybe only 1); they don't have steppe ancestry; they have mostly indigenous ancestry, especially maternally; they have minor Iranian ancestry. So depending on what they mean by indigenous vs Iranian, could mean they are mostly AASI with a little Iranian farmer type ancestry, or it could mean they are including ancient Iranian farmer type ancestry in the indigenous category and the "minor traces" refer to later elements like BMAC, Tepe Hissar, etc. The latter seems more likely but who knows. So probably like Indus periphery as suspected, maybe more AASI (they are much further east).

lukaszM
06-13-2018, 01:22 PM
They were simply pre-Aryan guys. What do they expect in such case? :)

thorin
06-13-2018, 01:33 PM
Well the actual genetic results seem to be: there are 2 samples (maybe only 1); they don't have steppe ancestry; they have mostly indigenous ancestry, especially maternally; they have minor Iranian ancestry. So depending on what they mean by indigenous vs Iranian, could mean they are mostly AASI with a little Iranian farmer type ancestry, or it could mean they are including ancient Iranian farmer type ancestry in the indigenous category and the "minor traces" refer to later elements like BMAC, Tepe Hissar, etc. The latter seems more likely but who knows. So probably like Indus periphery as suspected, maybe more AASI (they are much further east).

I think you are on the right track. The article is written very poorly. The only thing that everyone in mainstream India knows is the AIT. So every article will make some reference to that. Its quite sad. Because there is such an amazing story here but everything has to be brought back to that one thing because its the only thing that the general public knows about.

When they finally release the data, I'm gonna guess it will be AASI (south asian HG) with lesser amounts of Iran Neolithic farmer as well. These rakhigarhi graves were not very rich. The archaeological site apparently indicated they were labourer class or migrants or both. My bet it they will look similar to modern day tribal castes.

Whats more interesting are the so-called sanauli 'royal' burials that were recently discovered. A DNA test there will determine whether the people higher up the social order had more Iran_neolithic farmer in them. If that turns out to be the case, then we can reasonably assume that the origins of the caste system may precede the arrival of any steppe admixture.

In any case, the south asian HG (or AASI) are a remarkable people. They left such an insanely strong genetic imprint all over South Asia (and even Iran and central asia to a lesser extent). Very remarkable for people who were always being pushed to the bottom of society.

nuplix
06-13-2018, 03:17 PM
Finally, Razib responded to that publication.


The Rakhigarhi samples date to 2500 to 2250 BC last I checked. That means they shouldn’t have any steppe ancestry if the model of the relatively late demographic impact of Indo-Aryans after 2000 BC is correct.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/06/12/no-steppe-ancestry-in-the-the-rakhigarhi-samples-non-sequitur

redifflal
06-13-2018, 03:25 PM
Only way it would refute so called Aryan invasion is if the Steppe signal is there in Rakhigarhi. Lack of steppe and being heavy in AASI and minor Iranian Neolithic only advances Aryan intrusion theory and the historical retreat of an indigenous AASI group. Of course the whole construct of AASI is again artificial and is being defined as the xIran_N in those that were Indus periphery. If the original hypothesis and construct is invasionist then all the models can be presented in similar manner with any and all data...

MonkeyDLuffy
06-13-2018, 03:45 PM
The samples simply predate the arrival of steppe. I thought it was already established from recent papers that IVC was mainly AASI + Iran N, with different ratios. [Moderator: Edited post due to the political nature of the content]

BMG
06-13-2018, 03:54 PM
Only way it would refute so called Aryan invasion is if the Steppe signal is there in Rakhigarhi. Lack of steppe and being heavy in AASI and minor Iranian Neolithic only advances Aryan intrusion theory and the historical retreat of an indigenous AASI group. Of course the whole construct of AASI is again artificial and is being defined as the xIran_N in those that were Indus periphery. If the original hypothesis and construct is invasionist then all the models can be presented in similar manner with any and all data...
Niraj Rai has earlier told the results do support Aryan migration theory . I think the journalist might have confused what was told to him . The lack of steppe in Indus valley should actually support AMT/AIT rather than discrediting it . Vasant Shinde though it seems to support indigenous Aryan theory .

MonkeyDLuffy
06-13-2018, 04:09 PM
Niraj Rai has earlier told the results do support Aryan migration theory . I think the journalist might have confused what was told to him . The lack of steppe in Indus valley should actually support AMT/AIT rather than discrediting it . Vasant Shinde though it seems to support indigenous Aryan theory .

The picture used for article kind of gives away which people it is targeted towards. I'm positive the researchers have a lot of pressure from the government as well. This is why I sometimes doubt the papers from our country, or any country.

thorin
06-13-2018, 04:16 PM
Niraj Rai has earlier told the results do support Aryan migration theory . I think the journalist might have confused what was told to him . The lack of steppe in Indus valley should actually support AMT/AIT rather than discrediting it . Vasant Shinde though it seems to support indigenous Aryan theory .

The issue is with the constant commingling between the terms 'steppe' and 'aryan'. The people who first started calling themselves aryan in the bmac region may have well had aasi ancestry in them too. Certainly a lot of the data from Swat seems to indicate that (they had horses, cremation etc but only 22% steppe admix in the early second millennium bce).

Also the word 'invasion' is just implying something that there is absolutely no evidence for. Going forward these publications should refer to 'steppe migrations' as that would be more accurate. If and when we find evidence of an invasion, then we can start calling it steppe invasion. After that, if we ever find evidence that people in sintashta were referring to themselves as aryan then we can call it aryan invasion.

Also the word aryan is simply too ingrained in hindu religion for anyone to ever have a reasonable discussion about it right now.

Because of this bullsht no one is able to enjoy these amazing discoveries or feel real actual pride about them.

redifflal
06-13-2018, 04:18 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

BMG
06-13-2018, 04:22 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]
I Agree there . But When I read what Niraj told I felt like there was difference in opinion among the indian scientists . He also told there is no need to deny the obvious which might mean he may have been persuaded to do otherwise .

MonkeyDLuffy
06-13-2018, 04:42 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

BMG
06-13-2018, 04:52 PM
The issue is with the constant commingling between the terms 'steppe' and 'aryan'. The people who first started calling themselves aryan in the bmac region may have well had aasi ancestry in them too. Certainly a lot of the data from Swat seems to indicate that (they had horses, cremation etc but only 22% steppe admix in the early second millennium bce).

Also the word 'invasion' is just implying something that there is absolutely no evidence for. Going forward these publications should refer to 'steppe migrations' as that would be more accurate. If and when we find evidence of an invasion, then we can start calling it steppe invasion. After that, if we ever find evidence that people in sintashta were referring to themselves as aryan then we can call it aryan invasion.

Also the word aryan is simply too ingrained in hindu religion for anyone to ever have a reasonable discussion about it right now.

Because of this bullsht no one is able to enjoy these amazing discoveries or feel real actual pride about them.
What is problem with invasion . Most of the places in the world is invaded by one or the other people . I do think the event that introduced indo-aryan languages in the sub-continent resembled an invasion rather than migration . That is my personal perspective and it may change in future depending upon more knowledge i gain in the area.

The discoveries do interest me and I enjoy learning about it and do infer things which I find logical . There is no stopping anyone to do that . You can take pride in IVC culture if you want and also in Vedic culture since both have contributed to present Indian culture from north to south in varying degrees . You can't take Indo aryanness out of Indians whether there is invasion , migration or any thing else .

redifflal
06-13-2018, 04:53 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

thorin
06-13-2018, 05:16 PM
What is problem with invasion . Most of the places in the world is invaded by one or the other people . I do think the event that introduced indo-aryan languages in the sub-continent resembled an invasion rather than migration . That is my personal perspective and it may change in future depending upon more knowledge i gain in the area.

The discoveries do interest me and I enjoy learning about it and do infer things which I find logical . There is no stopping anyone to do that . You can take pride in IVC culture if you want and also in Vedic culture since both have contributed to present Indian culture from north to south in varying degrees . You can't take Indo aryanness out of Indians whether there is invasion , migration or any thing else .

Well if you want to call it an invasion even though there is no evidence for an invasion, then that is up to you. Academics and news outlets on the other hand, should stick to terms that are well supported by evidence.

In this case, the evidence is clear that there is an observable quantity of steppe dna admix into India along a cline which is strongest in the northwest and weakest in the southeast. This steppe admix is evident in 1200 bce from swat and not present in prior samples from Indus periphery or rakhigarhi. However, there is no evidence of Indus valley cities having been ransacked or burnt. So the current body of evidence would behoove an academic to refer to this as a steppe migration and not an aryan invasion.

You can take pride in vedic and/or IVC culture or both as I do, but that has nothing to do with how academics should properly refer to past events.

I mean whats the big crime in asking for evidence? Show me that there was an invasion and I'll happily call it an invasion. Show me that sintashta referred to themselves as aryans and I'll happily then call it an aryan invasion.

BMG
06-13-2018, 05:53 PM
In this case, the evidence is clear that there is an observable quantity of steppe dna admix into India along a cline which is strongest in the northwest and weakest in the southeast. This steppe admix is evident in 1200 bce from swat and not present in prior samples from Indus periphery or rakhigarhi. However, there is no evidence of Indus valley cities having been ransacked or burnt. So the current body of evidence would behoove an academic to refer to this as a steppe migration and not an aryan invasion.


Why do you think the steppe signatures are better preserved among upper castes and very low among lower castes .There is a geographic Cline and there is a caste wise Cline . Why is that so?
Why do the think Invaders should destroy anything and everything all their way . That is not the case with any invasion . Of course they may engage in destructive activities and proof of that is difficult to find . So the lack of burnt or destroyed doesn't mean that there is no invasion .
What I mean by invasion is that the shift wasn't peaceful and culture and language was forced on the majority by a minority group . By no means this is an exception but rather norm in case of language replacement . Overtime the community adopts the language and certain elements culture of the Invaders .

poi
06-13-2018, 07:49 PM
Why do you think the steppe signatures are better preserved among upper castes and very low among lower castes .There is a geographic Cline and there is a caste wise Cline . Why is that so?
Why do the think Invaders should destroy anything and everything all their way . That is not the case with any invasion . Of course they may engage in destructive activities and proof of that is difficult to find . So the lack of burnt or destroyed doesn't mean that there is no invasion .
What I mean by invasion is that the shift wasn't peaceful and culture and language was forced on the majority by a minority group . By no means this is an exception but rather norm in case of language replacement . Overtime the community adopts the language and certain elements culture of the Invaders .

Let's not get hung up on "invasion" lol. It is subjective. And by saying "forced", you're just putting burden on yourself to prove -- not migration -- but the nature of the migration. Migration definitely happened. What definitely happened was there was there was an infusion of Steppe ancestry by 2nd M. BCE. Aryans likely brought it.

If the Swat samples had shown higher-than-modern Steppe signature, this would have been case closed, since IVC lacked it completely and we wouldn't be bickering about Steppe percentages. High Steppe in Swat samples would have made things so much cleaner. And add ydna E to make things even messy. yikes

Still, more Steppe definetely poured in during the Saka era. No doubt about it. That is why many NW groups have elevated Steppe than the Swat samples.

Big question for me is -- were 2nd MM BCE Vedic Aryans carrying lower than anticipated Steppe? Reich et al say that there was no BMAC signature. So, if Vedic Aryans bypassed BMAC, and Swat samples reflect Vedic Aryans,how did they lose steppe? May be Swat samples were outliers when it came to genetic Vedic Aryans? But Swat was ground zero. Fun times. More aDNA needed. If another batch of NW graves carry R1a or much higher Steppe, it would make things much more clearer for most of us. May be cremation practices render aDNA practically impossible. But children weren't cremated. So there is still hope regardless.

Censored
06-14-2018, 07:52 AM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

Saad2016
06-14-2018, 10:35 AM
Any clue on the YDNA of these samples?

thorin
06-14-2018, 01:00 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 02:29 PM
[Moderator: Removed at request of OP]

khanabadoshi
06-14-2018, 03:39 PM
LOL guys, we are starting to get very political.
I was about to ask a question regarding all this... but it would make the thread even more political.
Tomorrow is Eid so I doubt Reza or I will be monitoring much, so I hope this thread doesn't spawn a massive debate.

poi
06-14-2018, 03:42 PM
LOL guys, we are starting to get very political.
I was about to ask a question regarding all this... but it would make the thread even more political.
Tomorrow is Eid so I doubt Reza or I will be monitoring much, so I hope this thread doesn't spawn a massive debate.

This is so intertwined with politics, religion, genetics(due to historical caste structure). Let's focus just on the genetics part :)

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 03:47 PM
Khana for some reason I can't edit my post, please remove it. As much as I have stuff to say about RSS, it doesn't belong here and would start a flamewar. If possible please wipe the post clean.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 03:50 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 04:06 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to the political nature of the content]

redifflal
06-14-2018, 04:09 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to reference to the political nature of the content of other posts]

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 04:13 PM
[Moderator: Removed due to reference to the political nature of the content of other posts]

khanabadoshi
06-14-2018, 04:30 PM
This is so intertwined with politics, religion, genetics(due to historical caste structure). Let's focus just on the genetics part :)

Part of me wants to seek permission to have a separate stickied thread dedicated to political topics, as I'm sure we are pretty unfamiliar with the political environments in respective countries or regions. ie. Even within a country the view towards an institution or party varies based on region.
We have quite a unique group of people active in this sub-forum that is hard to replicate in other venues. Even the major subreddits, r/india and r/indianews, are large echo chambers with open biases towards the right or left. So it's hard to get a picture of reality. Honestly, I have a hard time believing much of what is written in those threads because it's so hyperbolic that it can't be actual sentiments of an average guy -- everything sounds more like parroting of the party line; not actual, original, or sincere opinion. Here we have an opportunity to hear from regular people, whom we know where they are from, and can put context to their views. But perhaps this isn't the forum for all this. We shall see.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 04:37 PM
Part of me wants to seek permission to have a separate stickied thread dedicated to political, as I'm sure we are pretty unfamiliar with the political environments in respective countries or regions. ie. Even within a country the view towards an institution or party varies based on region.
We have quite a unique group of people active in this sub-forum that is hard to replicate in other venues. Even the major subreddits, r/indian and r/indianews, are large echo chambers with open biases towards the right or left. So it's hard to get a picture of reality. Honestly, I have a hard time believing much of what is written in those threads because it's so hyperbolic that it can't be actual sentiments of an average guy -- everything sounds more like parroting of the party line, not actual, original, or sincere opinion. Here we have an opportunity to hear from regular people whom we know where they are from and can put context to their views. But perhaps this isn't the forum for all this. We shall see.

A thread like that would attract a lot of non forum users to register and participate and it will turn into a "tatti" show lol. It's best we keep it away from forum.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 04:39 PM
Which I still agree on, it is aimed towards certain group of people. It's insulting to other south Asians who have equal right on IVC. No conspiracy here. But I agree politics does not belong here.

Honestly bro I think first dibs on IVC going by territorial route is everyone along the Indus river route. Biologically since they are looking heavy AASI with minor Iran Neolithic, it will belong to the castes in that northwest region that have the least steppe, and then maybe south and central Indian middle castes. I can assure you that for folks on eastern side of subcontinent, we are more influenced and partial towards the empires built out of Pataliputra for example or Nalanda etc.

Now I'm not sure how widespread this Indus Valley civilisation was. If the consensus is they were mainly on Indus Valley only, then our disconnect from it is justifiable. But I've also read reports that they were diamond mining as deep down as Andhra Pradesh... so how restricted is this really? I don't know.

Culturally speaking it would be dishonest for anyone to claim heritage from IVC. Vedic era is post IVC. All the pashupati or mother goddess etc are fairly universal and we can say they went into primordial building blocks of Vedic Hinduism. Although Hinduism isn't just Vedas or Vedic either, so an argument can be made that it may not belong to Hinduism but it belongs to Sanatan Dharma from which Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, tribal religions all descend.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 04:44 PM
Honestly bro I think first dibs on IVC going by territorial route is everyone along the Indus river route. Biologically since they are looking heavy AASI with minor Iran Neolithic, it will belong to the castes in that northwest region that have the least steppe, and then maybe south and central Indian middle castes. I can assure you that for folks on eastern side of subcontinent, we are more influenced and partial towards the empires built out of Pataliputra for example or Nalanda etc.

Now I'm not sure how widespread this Indus Valley civilisation was. If the consensus is they were mainly on Indus Valley only, then our disconnect from it is justifiable. But I've also read reports that they were diamond mining as deep down as Andhra Pradesh... so how restricted is this really? I don't know.

Culturally speaking it would be dishonest for anyone to claim heritage from IVC. Vedic era is post IVC. All the pashupati or mother goddess etc are fairly universal and we can say they went into primordial building blocks of Vedic Hinduism. Although Hinduism isn't just Vedas or Vedic either, so an argument can be made that it may not belong to Hinduism but it belongs to Sanatan Dharma from which Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, tribal religions all descend.

Agree, I had conversation with Sapporo and Bmoney about it, that the most pushed down castes and groups in South Asian society has the most right on IVC. Just to think that these people founded such amazing civilization and then the infamous Indo Aryans came and made them sit at the bottom is very sad.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 05:12 PM
Agree, I had conversation with Sapporo and Bmoney about it, that the most pushed down castes and groups in South Asian society has the most right on IVC. Just to think that these people founded such amazing civilization and then the infamous Indo Aryans came and made them sit at the bottom is very sad.

Lot of sad things if you start tracing your history in India from any point in the past. If you start from right before British then we were still a first world economy despite Muslim invasions and scientific/technological retardation caused by that. If you start from before the Muslims came, there was still science, astronomy, math etc coming out of India. I think the first famines and examples of massive inequality in society arise in this stage in favor of the foreign Muslim classes and their upper caste (non Brahmin) Hindu collaborators like various mercantile groups and military/administrative groups. So the pre British India is no paradise. Only difference is the plunder of the land is getting hoarded into massive feudal power holders vs after British the technology is there to ship it out of India. Now you keep going back into further historical obscurity. Those Kushanas and Sakas etc are same stock as after they converted to Islam, I don't think they'd be nice to us either lol. If Indians had developed xenophobia towards central and west Asians already by then it was likely a similar sentiment as the sense of siege that we felt during plunders from Timur to Abdali. Finally if the Indus Valley folks were living like this
"fare. All this indicates that the people were receiving well-developed healthcare and had full-fledged knowledge systems.”
And Indo Aryan genesis means subordination of this sort of society, it is indeed lamentable. After all we build societies and governments and nations for individual betterment, not for benefit of select few. This is why IVC is highest point because at a time when Egyptians were building ego boosting monuments and killing multitude of slaves, Indians are building public sanitation, uniform measurement system across vast geographical spread for fair trade, etc.

Our core element is very industrious but politically and geostrategically vey innocuous. And that seems to be historian taken advantage of...

khanabadoshi
06-14-2018, 05:16 PM
MODERATOR PSA:

These 500 Internal Error pages make it a chore to edit posts. So take it easy on Reza and myself with the sidetracking. We are pretty lenient and prefer to let risque discussion take its course as we trust the members on here know when and how to conclude those conversations amicably. We usually only intervene if things are imminently about to get out of control or we have 2-3 complaints. On that note, I would have left everything on this thread as is and not removed any posts yet if I could monitor this thread tomorrow. However, since I won't be able to, and likely neither will Reza, I thought it best to heed the advice of everyone and clean it up now.

FYI: I tend to be more lenient when it comes to these matters than my co-moderator, so don't assume my inaction means his inaction.

thorin
06-14-2018, 05:31 PM
LOL guys, we are starting to get very political.
I was about to ask a question regarding all this... but it would make the thread even more political.
Tomorrow is Eid so I doubt Reza or I will be monitoring much, so I hope this thread doesn't spawn a massive debate.

I hear what you're saying. But South Asian genetics is a such a hot topic precisely because of the politics of it all. But I understand why you'd cancel the posts I guess. These discussions are famous for devolving into mudslinging pretty fast. Cheers.

thorin
06-14-2018, 05:43 PM
Agree, I had conversation with Sapporo and Bmoney about it, that the most pushed down castes and groups in South Asian society has the most right on IVC. Just to think that these people founded such amazing civilization and then the infamous Indo Aryans came and made them sit at the bottom is very sad.

Agree on that point. Its high time we as a culture start treating EVERYONE in our society with more respect. But I think we can all be proud of IVC. We all have S_Indian and Baloch in our admix. Yes we have some steppe and west asia... BUT really S_Indian and Baloch are doing the heavy lifting for virtually all of us. We are ALL essentially descendants of the IVC people to some degree.

There was a great presentation by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer on harappa a few years ago. I believe it was hosted by the pakistani association or something at some california university... i'll find it and post a link below. But he had some great points in there about how actual customs, practices, cooking pots (handi), jewelry etc from IVC are still found today on the subcontinent. I know for me personally, through my hobby research into genetics and history, I've made it a point to specifically treat people equally regardless of their current economic or social status. As you can imagine, sometimes in a subcontinental setting this can be odd, especially when you're talking to the busboy or autowalla so respectfully, but hey change has to start somewhere.

Here is the link - great preso - shtty sound, etc, but worth listening to nonetheless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkbuMDwVbO8

surbakhunWeesste
06-14-2018, 06:12 PM
Agree on that point. Its high time we as a culture start treating EVERYONE in our society with more respect. But I think we can all be proud of IVC. We all have S_Indian and Baloch in our admix. Yes we have some steppe and west asia... BUT really S_Indian and Baloch are doing the heavy lifting for virtually all of us. We are ALL essentially descendants of the IVC people to some degree.

There was a great presentation by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer on harappa a few years ago. I believe it was hosted by the pakistani association or something at some california university... i'll find it and post a link below. But he had some great points in there about how actual customs, practices, cooking pots (handi), jewelry etc from IVC are still found today on the subcontinent. I know for me personally, through my hobby research into genetics and history, I've made it a point to specifically treat people equally regardless of their current economic or social status. As you can imagine, sometimes in a subcontinental setting this can be odd, especially when you're talking to the busboy or autowalla so respectfully, but hey change has to start somewhere.

Here is the link - great preso - shtty sound, etc, but worth listening to nonetheless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkbuMDwVbO8

The romanticized idea of treating everyone with respect doesn't prevail much in reality, does it?

Why would anyone wanna show much respect and trust? That's much against the known human nature! Also, people bestowing credits to the rightful ones? sounds much Bollywood, sorry.

The cooking pot"Handi" is Sumerian as well, check 'Vajra'(Indra's weapon basically(open form)(saw in Kathmandu's Monkey Temple),Sumerians called it 'Sharur'.

poi
06-14-2018, 06:38 PM
The romanticized idea of treating everyone with respect doesn't prevail much in reality, does it?

Why would anyone wanna show much respect and trust? That's much against the known human nature! Also, people bestowing credits to the rightful ones? sounds much Bollywood, sorry.

The cooking pot"Handi" is Sumerian as well, check 'Vajra'(Indra's weapon basically(open form)(saw in Kathmandu's Monkey Temple),Sumerians called it 'Sharur'.

I guess thorin was not engaging in an hyperbole wrt respect, but had specific examples where, as a culture, we disrespect people belonging in lower socio economic status. Basically, you take a ride from rickshawwallahs to haul your ass around, but there is no appreciation for their work. Ditto for laborers that engage in back breaking labor. This is not to say this is exclusive to us, but, atleast in the West/USA, the people are much more appreciative of others, atleast publicly. And thank yous and sorrys are thrown around that despite them being facetious many times, help build the culture of appreciation.
My toddler says thank you and sorry at her age. I don't remember saying thank you or sorry to any of our housekeepers or folks that did day to day work for us. We took them for granted, thinking that was their duty and obligation. I feel sad remembering psychological abuse I must have caused to our housekeeper' s kids. We were of same age, but they were seen as lower than us.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 07:01 PM
I guess thorin was not engaging in an hyperbole wrt respect, but had specific examples where, as a culture, we disrespect people belonging in lower socio economic status. Basically, you take a ride from rickshawwallahs to haul your ass around, but there is no appreciation for their work. Ditto for laborers that engage in back breaking labor. This is not to say this is exclusive to us, but, atleast in the West/USA, the people are much more appreciative of others, atleast publicly. And thank yous and sorrys are thrown around that despite them being facetious many times, help build the culture of appreciation.
My toddler says thank you and sorry at her age. I don't remember saying thank you or sorry to any of our housekeepers or folks that did day to day work for us. We took them for granted, thinking that was their duty and obligation. I feel sad remembering psychological abuse I must have caused to our housekeeper' s kids. We were of same age, but they were seen as lower than us.

These are first world ethics and etiquette that have derived in modern West maybe in last century. You can trace it back to protestant work ethic, pull yourself up by bootstraps mentality, a generic disdain for bookish knowledge/intellectualism and emphasis on blue collar culture. You think in an engineering company in India your programmers and engineers would consider sitting at a table with the mechanics and plumber during lunch? But in US we do. Here in US the engineer is considered a person of same social status as the mechanic except he went for four years of college. Matter of fact many companies have moved away from suit boot tie culture to everyone wearing jeans and sneakers to work. Your level of work doesn't need to be apparent except inside your laptop, no need to wear your status on sleeve.

But you think of history of last 500 years. What a tremendous expansion of a subset of old world cultures was allowed to happen with discovery of new world. A few criminal Brits had an entire continent (Australia) to do whatever with, a few ultra religious Brits had a different continent to themselves. A few Spaniards and Portuguese also same thing. Like imagine if Bengalis had a colony somewhere, Telugu had a colony elsewhere, ultra orthodox Bihari Brahmins get another spot, etc etc. Expansion and availability of space allowed Western world to grow exponentially ahead. The types of behavioral difference you observe today didn't evolve over night.

Either way though, we're always going to be playing catch up on all these things, especially if the same exact social metrics are laid down as symbols of modernity. There is no right answer to how to go about it...

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 07:13 PM
Western Society has many problems, dont think it is culturally superior to South Asia. It is all going tits-up as we speak.

Literally no one said western society is superior. Addressing issues about our own culture does not mean other cultures are superior.

How to behave with people depends on individuals themselves regardless of their backgrounds.

surbakhunWeesste
06-14-2018, 07:16 PM
I guess thorin was not engaging in an hyperbole wrt respect, but had specific examples where, as a culture, we disrespect people belonging in lower socio economic status. Basically, you take a ride from rickshawwallahs to haul your ass around, but there is no appreciation for their work. Ditto for laborers that engage in back breaking labor. This is not to say this is exclusive to us, but, atleast in the West/USA, the people are much more appreciative of others, atleast publicly. And thank yous and sorrys are thrown around that despite them being facetious many times, help build the culture of appreciation.
My toddler says thank you and sorry at her age. I don't remember saying thank you or sorry to any of our housekeepers or folks that did day to day work for us. We took them for granted, thinking that was their duty and obligation. I feel sad remembering psychological abuse I must have caused to our housekeeper' s kids. We were of same age, but they were seen as lower than us.

I suppose that's cultural! It is ironic because in the holy books, it's written that one is to show utmost respect....basically emulate someone like Ram, I guess, people were selective of what to take and what not to form the ancient holy books and passed on such behaviors.
I have been reading Manusmiriti and I read many laws for men, women, I am pretty sure no one cares about those but rather will care about the most adulterated absurd 'laws'/rituals....

As much as I am fascinated by the vedic books, many present day vedic followers make me sad, my tragedy. phew

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 07:19 PM
I disagree strongly with both of you guys. I am ex-Muslim from a North-Indian background and I identify with both IVC and Vedic literature. IVC is post-Vedic. South Indians have a lot of land, IVC didnt encompass the whole of South Asia, they could have built whatever they wanted.

We need to move away from these Western, ideologically driven interpretations where everyone seems to be denying North Indian Hindus their cultural inheritance. IvC doesnt "belong" to anyone, to assert it was created by and driven by 'AASI' peoples, who have produced nothing comparable in South India, is without merit or justification.



Again, I disagree very strongly. "Mother Goddess" is a just a Western Academic invention for what looks like a childs plaything. Is there any evidence that these figures have religious significance? idols tend to be larger and less numerous, so not sure why you are jumping to weird conclusions.

There are numerous cultural similarities we can find...

Saraswati River
Gambling Dice (Vedic)
Chess Set
Knotted Hair (Vedic)
Chariot

Obviously there will be a gap between what is mentioned in religous literature, and what remains we can find from archeology, but it does look like there is continuity from the IVC to both modern culture and hinduism.

The AIT is just a really bad theory and needs to be consigned to the loony, racist, Eurocentric past from which it was created.

Can you please post the source which states IVC is post Vedic?

redifflal
06-14-2018, 07:23 PM
Beyath, Western academia and scholarship will never and neither should be expected to disown anything in its past. In any continuous civilisation, continuity means unbroken. When I'm writing a Journal article in electrical engineering, you can bet I have references from work that was done in 1950s, 1920s. There was a book I read once that referred to work by Pascal in proper mla format, yup, those wig wearing portrait-only pre photograph era scientists lol. Also journals etc system is a peer review system, so changes in these structures should not be expected to happen massively. If westerners are updating their systems, it is happening incrementally and on their own terms.

Massive changes in scholarship happen when your cities and libraries get burnt to the ground. You can pretty much imagine that Indians are starting from ground zero as of 1947, and always playing defense globally. All our histories are to be dismissed as myths and oral legends and hyperbole. An entire ecosystem needs to be rebuilt if we honestly want our own perspectives to be published. Otherwise it is going to be subjecting ourselves to ridicule, and sometimes it isn't unwarranted because the details have not been hashed out well enough. Example look at the title of this article, why? Rakhigarhi skeletons are from mature Harappan phase and not going to line up with dates of purported AIT. Why take potshots at it without the right material?
In my opinion, Indocentrics need to start building entire bodies of knowledge in fields of linguistics, anthropology, archaeology and genetics not just relevant to India (which we only do as a lashing out mechanism to one being attacked) but rather to explain all of Eurasia, Africa etc. If Indocentrics are only concerned in responding to Eurocentric or legacy Eurocentricism in western academia, that in itself makes us and limits us to Eurocentric as well...

As far as this AIT goes, Indocentrics need to do their own excavations across all of Eurasia. The data might be exactly the same but the interpretation are being made a$$ backwards just to fit the old invasionist models. But we need more than 1 Rakhigarhi skeleton to make that claim. Rest of data and raw materials are being analyzed by western academia, which like I said, has no incentive nor should be expected to come out of its own biases.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-14-2018, 08:36 PM
"I identify with both IVC and Vedic literature. IVC is post-Vedic."

Dont think I can qualify every single statement with an "I think" or "I believe". Though I do try and make it clear, and in this case state in the previous statement that this is my position.

That is more than can be said for AITists who rarely make it clear when they are making assumptions or speculations, and just present their own speculations as fact.

If you mean, can I defend my position, then yes, ofcourse I can.

Put it simply...Vedic is pre-urban. IVC is Urban. Both are in the same region. Ergo, by default Vedic is pre-IVC and vice-versa. (It confuses me that you need this explained to you, or why you need a 'source' for basic common-sense reasoning)

The burden of proof is on you if you wish to argue for another interpretation of South Asian history, or if you wish to push a European perspective on South Asia.

I'm not going to comment on your appeal-to-authority argument because I have seen too much of that from AITists and to be honest it is kinda boring. Either you know what you're talking about or you dont, Anthony made his money from his book, he is not here helping you out.

I have no idea who Anthony is, nor I care. I'm open to sources and facts. You twisted and dodged the question. It has nothing to do with common sense. Brahmins have huge history behind Vedas, and it is *common sense* that Brahmins have steppe paternal lines as well as admixture all over south Asia. The IVC and surrounding civilizations samples we have lacked steppe, as the original article states. So steppe came after foundation IVC, hence Brahmins came late IVC, hence Vedic culture and Vedas came in existence after IVC.

IVC had elements of proto Vedic culture, after all it is the base of south Asian culture. I'm simply asking something to back up the claim you made that IVC is post Vedic period. Please don't throw heavy words and strawmans to make it seem like a stupid question.

If you want to talk like you're right, please post sources. You're welcome to use Indian or non European sources to back them. Saying you're not going to comment on my *appeal to authority* is not how discussions work. We're here to learn.

And No I'm not a Brahmin nor a so called high caste privileged person. I'm not an AIT as well. My paternal lines is R1a as you can see, which is steppe in origin, and it is one of the most dominant lines in South Asia, along with other non South Asian lines like L, R2, J, Q. While the dominant maternal line in south Asia is M, which is south Asian in origin.

Please explain how did that happen, I'd love to hear your explanation about it rather than empty words to sound intelligent. It's not like H Yhalogroup suddenly became unattractive one day and all M females started marrying non South Asian males. Sentiments don't belong here.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 09:35 PM
Mdl I would like to know how certain y haps and mtdnas got classified as south Asian vs not. I know for sure all this Steppe _emba and mlba is being defined as from aDNA remains. Without South Asian aDNA and appropriate ones, all these steppe vs Neolithic Iranian vs so called AASI which isn't even constructed from aDNA start becoming a matter of how you interpret the data available. Like I mentioned if your model starts as invasionist, then the data can be manipulated to or cherry picked to present that way. The geneticists aren't linguists nor are they archaeologists, and the scholarship in these fields including references in latest papers hail from a time when dogs were being let loose on unarmed black women.

The science is good, the analysis is flawed inherently due to the hypothesis. Either way I have mentioned my reservations behind the latest Reich paper on that thread, as well as my reservations from interpreting Rakhigarhi data any which way in the event that the so called Steppe turns out absent in Rakhigarhi. You need similar aDNA available across all regions of subcontinent like Neolithic, emba, mlba, Mesolithic, etc in order to make any genetic conclusions.

redifflal
06-14-2018, 10:28 PM
I have a theory, which I'll post and scoot if anybody wants to ask for evidence. Caste is indigenous to subcontinent and Vedas to northern part so is Sanskrit. Steppe groups like Sakas that entered got pushed down the hierarchy once settled due to foreign origins. I would really like to know given a region, say Punjab, is Steppe highest in the Brahmins or in the warrior castes? My belief is that some warrior castes have twice the average steppe contribution than a Brahmin within the same ethnic group. This study needs to be made instead of clustering studies about upper caste vs lower caste. I'm sure in Punjabis the Jatts have higher steppe than Brahmins. In Bengalis also any given Bose or Roychoudhary has more chance of phenotypically exhibiting much more Caucasoid features than a given Banerjee Chatterjee etc.
Next part is everyone is more or less in agreement that in subcultures and various contexts, south Asians also selected for lighter complexion and Caucasoid features. So various indigenous groups like Brahmins or pre steppe kshatriyas used their caste advantage to marry lighter females from lower castes. This may have upped the steppe amount in Brahmins from what may have been at a similar level as the resident Shudra to an intermediate point to the warrior caste.
There is no use tracking this through uniparental markers because those could be lost in one generation if that initial steppe impulse in post Vedic era is male mediated. Ex we had a maid in India, her father was Englishman who had impregnated his maid right around 1947 and then left on his ship to UK. Now this lady grew up in slum in India and took up her mother's identity obviously. She had difficulty getting married off because in Bengali Hindus still in 60s the fair and lovely culture had not yet penetrated to slum levels. But her daughters had no problem marrying and actually married urban middle class upper caste Bengali guys house where she worked, because by then fair and lovely culture had penetrated, so imagine you in India now having a light skinned red freckled blue eyed maid, you're gonna holler. So similar way, maybe this happened in past also that various upper caste groups upped their steppe content from marrying girls from more Caucasoid communities in lower castes.

poi
06-15-2018, 12:22 AM
Those studies are not very useful presicely for the reason you mention. Brahmins only have higher steppe ancestry than non-northern (Punjabi) South Asians. The average Punjabi has comparable steppe ancestry to Brahmins, pointing to a North Indian origin for the brahmin caste.

Now that we have pre-IE(assuming IVC is not IE) and post-IE(assuming Swat IronAge are post-IE/IA), we can check how much did Steppe play into it. Looking at the data, Steppe was introduced in South Asia between the end of the BronzeAge and the start of the IronAge, as IVC populations lacked it and Swat samples showed steppe signal. This clearly points to IE/IA migration (assuming IVC was not IE already). But why did Steppe signal remain much lower than anticipated even back during the Vedic period? Everybody was expecting 50% steppe. Not lower-than-modern steppe. And no sign of R1a either, instead a bunch of Eurafrican Es? Amazing!

Scenario 1: Occam's razor. IE/IA migrants in South Asia were low in steppe, because steppe was far away and they just could not ride their chariots fast enough across the vast Central Asian plains.
This is the most obvious explanation so far. And additional modern steppe in various NW groups can be explained by subsequent non-IA migrations of Saka/Kushan groups. And Brahmins have high steppe because they also originated in the NW.

Scenario 2: requires a bit of unconventional thinking: IVC was IE/IA
This requires a bit of assumption and probably no well-accepted linguistic/archaeological evidence to back it up. The biggest hole in this scenario would be the lack of steppe in IVC. Since IE=Steppe in rest of Eurasia, this requires the Steppe hypothesis to go down in flames. Not likely, unless something shows up in West Asia. If Iran_N = P/IE, good bye Steppe as the sole-mediator of IE. Iran_N in IVC could explain IE there. Still, there is the cold reality of Dravidian. I just don't feel any respected scientists are researching Dravidian pre-history.

Scenario 3: Mint-condition Steppe folks actually touched down in South Asia, cremated their dead, so those Swat IronAge samples represented were not IndoAryans.
This scenario I made it up and there is no evidence at all to suggest it. Others might be thinking as well. This is the most Steppe-ist scenario. Just wait for more aDNA, we will catch that R1a in 1500 BC in South Asia. And that guy would have 51% Steppe. And a horse nearby with a decapitated dog head.

Scenario 4: OIT
Let's not even bother with this one anymore.

soulblighter
06-15-2018, 02:09 AM
Now that we have pre-IE(assuming IVC is not IE) and post-IE(assuming Swat IronAge are post-IE/IA), we can check how much did Steppe play into it. Looking at the data, Steppe was introduced in South Asia between the end of the BronzeAge and the start of the IronAge, as IVC populations lacked it and Swat samples showed steppe signal. This clearly points to IE/IA migration (assuming IVC was not IE already). But why did Steppe signal remain much lower than anticipated even back during the Vedic period? Everybody was expecting 50% steppe. Not lower-than-modern steppe. And no sign of R1a either, instead a bunch of Eurafrican Es? Amazing!

Scenario 1: Occam's razor. IE/IA migrants in South Asia were low in steppe, because steppe was far away and they just could not ride their chariots fast enough across the vast Central Asian plains.
This is the most obvious explanation so far. And additional modern steppe in various NW groups can be explained by subsequent non-IA migrations of Saka/Kushan groups. And Brahmins have high steppe because they also originated in the NW.

Scenario 2: requires a bit of unconventional thinking: IVC was IE/IA
This requires a bit of assumption and probably no well-accepted linguistic/archaeological evidence to back it up. The biggest hole in this scenario would be the lack of steppe in IVC. Since IE=Steppe in rest of Eurasia, this requires the Steppe hypothesis to go down in flames. Not likely, unless something shows up in West Asia. If Iran_N = P/IE, good bye Steppe as the sole-mediator of IE. Iran_N in IVC could explain IE there. Still, there is the cold reality of Dravidian. I just don't feel any respected scientists are researching Dravidian pre-history.

Scenario 3: Mint-condition Steppe folks actually touched down in South Asia, cremated their dead, so those Swat IronAge samples represented were not IndoAryans.
This scenario I made it up and there is no evidence at all to suggest it. Others might be thinking as well. This is the most Steppe-ist scenario. Just wait for more aDNA, we will catch that R1a in 1500 BC in South Asia. And that guy would have 51% Steppe. And a horse nearby with a decapitated dog head.

Scenario 4: OIT
Let's not even bother with this one anymore.

I did hear this rant from an OITer who flipped the beans on others proclaiming that IE propagation is due to OIT and you don't find Indian genetics outside south/central Asia because they refused to mix with Barbarians leaving no traceable genetic lines behind and being true Aryans, were all cremated leaving no ancient DNA outside South Asia. I thought it was creative on his part though....
This political linkage of haplogroups to culture has made all of the great advances in science recently into this ugly drag rather than fun!

surbakhunWeesste
06-15-2018, 02:26 AM
"and it is *common sense* that Brahmins have steppe paternal lines as well as admixture all over south Asia"
"My paternal lines is R1a as you can see, which is steppe in origin"

No, it is not. It is far from conclusive that South Asian R1A is Steppe-derived or that 'steppe' or steppe-like admixture in South Asia is post-2000BC.

There are 3 possibilities regarding 'steppe' admixture.

1. It was in South Asia prior to 2000BC
2. It came in post-2000BC and was assimilated
3. It came in post-2000BC and brought IA languages with it.

All 3 three are still open, obviously, and that is simple enough that it shouldnt escape anyone.

More importantly, regarding South Asian R1A, it should be noted that out of 100 Andronovo samples, none had the correct clade of R1A to have been the ancestor of South Asian R1A, so Andronovo is likely not the origin. So please dont post things like "South Asian R1A is Steppe-derived" because that is unqualified and not supported by the data.


"You twisted and dodged the question."

I haven't done either. I stated (the position) that IVC is post-vedic. This is a consequence of the Out of India Theory. So are you asking for a link to back it up, or for a name of an author? My claim is not based on a single data point, like for instance an archeological find, or a Vedic verse, so there is no 'source' to speak of. But you can read any OIT author you want.

In fact, here is a video I made myself that you can watch if you have the time. I argue that PIE is Vedic Sanksrit and that Germanic and Balto-Slavic are derived from Iranian.


https://youtu.be/966dAKcpoT8

That's a ~49 mins long video, anyway, which 'Iranian' language do you refer to in your video?

anthroin
06-15-2018, 02:28 AM
Now that we have pre-IE(assuming IVC is not IE) and post-IE(assuming Swat IronAge are post-IE/IA), we can check how much did Steppe play into it. Looking at the data, Steppe was introduced in South Asia between the end of the BronzeAge and the start of the IronAge, as IVC populations lacked it and Swat samples showed steppe signal. This clearly points to IE/IA migration (assuming IVC was not IE already). But why did Steppe signal remain much lower than anticipated even back during the Vedic period? Everybody was expecting 50% steppe. Not lower-than-modern steppe. And no sign of R1a either, instead a bunch of Eurafrican Es? Amazing!

Scenario 1: Occam's razor. IE/IA migrants in South Asia were low in steppe, because steppe was far away and they just could not ride their chariots fast enough across the vast Central Asian plains.
This is the most obvious explanation so far. And additional modern steppe in various NW groups can be explained by subsequent non-IA migrations of Saka/Kushan groups. And Brahmins have high steppe because they also originated in the NW.

Scenario 2: requires a bit of unconventional thinking: IVC was IE/IA
This requires a bit of assumption and probably no well-accepted linguistic/archaeological evidence to back it up. The biggest hole in this scenario would be the lack of steppe in IVC. Since IE=Steppe in rest of Eurasia, this requires the Steppe hypothesis to go down in flames. Not likely, unless something shows up in West Asia. If Iran_N = P/IE, good bye Steppe as the sole-mediator of IE. Iran_N in IVC could explain IE there. Still, there is the cold reality of Dravidian. I just don't feel any respected scientists are researching Dravidian pre-history.

Scenario 3: Mint-condition Steppe folks actually touched down in South Asia, cremated their dead, so those Swat IronAge samples represented were not IndoAryans.
This scenario I made it up and there is no evidence at all to suggest it. Others might be thinking as well. This is the most Steppe-ist scenario. Just wait for more aDNA, we will catch that R1a in 1500 BC in South Asia. And that guy would have 51% Steppe. And a horse nearby with a decapitated dog head.

Scenario 4: OIT
Let's not even bother with this one anymore.

Not directly related to the matter but I don't think Dravidian pre-history is not being researched at all by respected scientists and others. It's perhaps more like we tend to see a disproportionate amount of discussions about IE languages in discourse, especially on this website (or rather every website on the internet it seems), everywhere. If you as a non-IE speaker have some sort of historical connection with any branch of IE language family, you are doomed. For example, papers on Caucasus attract IE language discussions majorly and people don't to seem to care too much about bringing the actual languages of the Caucasus into discussion. Or I'm myself erroneously biased because I did not read each and every thread on this forum and perhaps selectively picked and read IE threads (though I like to think I'm a bit more averse than your average reader to the phenomenon of indulging in endless discussion about IE languages) myself.

That said, one reason Dravidian pre-history (as in the material aspects like geographical homelands, etc.) is inherently more difficult to study than that of known IE languages because Dravidian is an isolate language family (IE even has a known possibility of being connected to Uralic on a genetic level going even far behind than what is fairly sufficient). For example, Dravidian could easily have been one of the (possibly many) languages of the hunter gatherers of India native to western regions like Gujarat and may have enjoyed recent success because of its attachment to the Indus people (whose linguistic identity is not known). And of course it could very well have been the Indus language. As genetic evidence accumulates, perhaps people will tend to view Dravidian as the Indus language which is fair but the possibility of it being descended from one of AASI speeches in regions culturally attached to the Indus neolithic is also there and some sort of cultural connection to Indus, is in my view, sufficient enough to explain its success, without being equated to Indus itself (it is not at all the case that I'm ushering in a new Indigenous Indian theory for Dravidian; just that I think attachment to Indus does not magically solve all the problems for Dravidian any more than attachment to Gujarat or southern Deccan; or that I'm just very nit-picky).

The Zagrosian or Elamo-Dravidian that usually creeps up is really not a hypothesis that enjoys significant amount of support currently though I guess people (at least two- David McAlpin, the scholar who put forward the hypothesis and Frank Southworth and possibly also Suresh Kolichala) have started to work more vigorously on the matter. And outside historical linguistics, the most helpful thing that closes this problem once and for all would be the decipherment of Indus script (if it's not one, then tough luck again.) and knowing its language.

Saad2016
06-15-2018, 02:34 AM
Overall I agree with this article. Theories are often flawed and exaggerated. Aryan Invasion? somebody came from steppes and replaced/eradicated populations of millions? I don't think so! India/Pakistan was always densely population. It is next to impossible to eradicate the locals. Just like the Moghuls were unable to replace the locals, the british came and gone and even if the aryans theory is true..i don't think they had the potential to replace the locals.

Saad2016
06-15-2018, 02:38 AM
Aryan invasion theory was created by some local indian scholars to show affinity with Hitler as defiance to the british! Before the Brtiish colonial Era , nobody in India/Pakistan even knew the Term Aryan or used it in their literature. Do u guys agree?

redifflal
06-15-2018, 02:43 AM
That's a ~49 mins long video, anyway, which 'Iranian' language do you refer to in your video?

Its actually well articulated imho. I watched all of it. Balto-Slavic and Germanic hanging around Iranic for much longer and after Greek and Latin and Celtic had split away from Sanskrit explains the deva-ashura dichotomy being present in English as well but not in Latin.

Check this out as well, not sure if posted elsewhere on genica
https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2018/05/30/war-clan-structubiological-event/


Starting about 7,000 years ago, something weird seems to have happened to men: Over the next two millennia, recent studies suggest, their genetic diversity –specifically, the diversity of their Y chromosomes – collapsed. So extreme was that collapse that it was as if there were only one man left to mate for every 17 women.


This may line up with events of the Mahabharata as well...

poi
06-15-2018, 02:53 AM
Those studies are not very useful presicely for the reason you mention. Brahmins only have higher steppe ancestry than non-northern (Punjabi) South Asians. The average Punjabi has comparable steppe ancestry to Brahmins, pointing to a North Indian origin for the brahmin caste.

That is true, groups like Jatts, Chitralis, Khalashs, etc have higher steppe. So, steppe doesn't imply caste status in the NW. However, Brahmins have much higher Steppe-to-IVCp ratio. Khalash, despite being higher steppe, have low Steppe-to-IVCp. It was as if the Vedic Brahmins avoided IVC and straight went to the Gangetic plains and the Himalayas .i think you could see anti urban attitudes of Brahmins even in the postVedic epics. Only few royal acharyas stayed in the city, while most/all Brahmins were wandering around the forests and the mountains.

poi
06-15-2018, 03:08 AM
Aryan invasion theory was created by some local indian scholars to show affinity with Hitler as defiance to the british! Before the Brtiish colonial Era , nobody in India/Pakistan even knew the Term Aryan or used it in their literature. Do u guys agree?

I'm sure Aryan is English and doubt anyone used that word before the British. But Arya was a sign of respect used throughout theliterature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arya

anthroin
06-15-2018, 03:26 AM
Of course, what's the basis for separating Indus regions and Gujarat linguistically during the IVC period, as I did in my previous post? There is not much- except there seems to have been a significant cultural difference between Gujarat and the core Indus region with Gujarat's cropping patterns and stuff not being exactly identical to that of Indus (Gujarat- majorly millets, Indus- barley and wheat). However this could easily have been because of the climate differences (Gujarat apparently fell under the Indian monsoon climate zone) and the boring Iran_N or Iran_N+AASI of NW (yay! my somewhat extreme regionalism for the win) farmers physically inhabiting Gujarat too in large numbers (and needless to say, spreading their language) and cropping different crops than their usual barley and wheat.

And regarding middle caste Dravidian speakers of the genetic constellation made up of Panta Kapu, Reddy, Kodava, etc. tending to have significant Iran_N Y-DNA haplogroups like J2, R2, L, etc., this is a somewhat strong argument in my view in favour of the ultimate Iran origin of Dravidian languages but what amount of probability do you folks think could have been there in prehistory for the possibility where a certain small number of Indus Neolithic men influenced Gujarat genetically and culturally but still did not change the native language of Gujarat which was Dravidian and not related to the languages of the Indus in the scenario I'm imagining? Not much?

redifflal
06-15-2018, 04:00 AM
That is true, groups like Jatts, Chitralis, Khalashs, etc have higher steppe. So, steppe doesn't imply caste status in the NW. However, Brahmins have much higher Steppe-to-IVCp ratio. Khalash, despite being higher steppe, have low Steppe-to-IVCp. It was as if the Vedic Brahmins avoided IVC and straight went to the Gangetic plains and the Himalayas .i think you could see anti urban attitudes of Brahmins even in the postVedic epics. Only few royal acharyas stayed in the city, while most/all Brahmins were wandering around the forests and the mountains.

Bro they also avoided the BMAC according to the Raghavan Reich paper. So they avoided BMAC, IVC, also avoided early Swat, like how much hoops do we need to keep jumping to get the genetic data to fit old victorious march of white race theory? Earlier we thought that Sintashta acculturated for centuries in the BMAC before gradually coming through into IVC/Punjab, but now that is not the case genetically. I understand horses give greater geographical mobility, but this is even greater than Muslim invasions or Mongolian ones. I find the idea of Brahmins riding on horses with tiki and dhoti flapping in air extremely comical lol.

I am sincerely starting to doubt the entire archaeo-linguistic scholarship that has gone on in the West regarding all this stuff for last two centuries:
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/migrations-yes-but-aryan-migrations-not-really
Real meat of arguments start from horse culture in above article.

poi
06-15-2018, 04:12 AM
Bro they also avoided the BMAC according to the Raghavan Reich paper. So they avoided BMAC, IVC, also avoided early Swat, like how much hoops do we need to keep jumping to get the genetic data to fit old victorious march of white race theory? Earlier we thought that Sintashta acculturated for centuries in the BMAC before gradually coming through into IVC/Punjab, but now that is not the case genetically. I understand horses give greater geographical mobility, but this is even greater than Muslim invasions or Mongolian ones. I find the idea of Brahmins riding on horses with tiki and dhoti flapping in air extremely comical lol.

I am sincerely starting to doubt the entire archaeo-linguistic scholarship that has gone on in the West regarding all this stuff for last two centuries:
https://swarajyamag.com/culture/migrations-yes-but-aryan-migrations-not-really
Real meat of arguments start from horse culture in above article.

lol, you might just have given the irrefutable evidence for the indigenous origin of the Brahmins.

Seriously, though, I do not at all trust any of the hypotheses on prehistorical populations, unless things have been straightened out (or at least illuminated) by modern ancient(!) genetics. So, I don't give a crap about what some professor of psychology said about Sintashta-Bmac-IndoAryans in 1973. But I listen to what Reich and his labs say. I will keep listening as new data pour in. At least Reich stuff is based on real science, not pseudo science.

redifflal
06-15-2018, 04:25 AM
lol, you might just have given the irrefutable evidence for the indigenous origin of the Brahmins.

Seriously, though, I do not at all trust any of the hypotheses on prehistorical populations, unless things have been straightened out (or at least illuminated) by modern ancient(!) genetics. So, I don't give a crap about what some professor of psychology said about Sintashta-Bmac-IndoAryans in 1973. But I listen to what Reich and his labs say. I will keep listening as new data pour in. At least Reich stuff is based on real science, not pseudo science.

I agree but the baseline models on which Reich ends up drawing conclusions on is ultimately built from existing models forwarded from 1873 when genetics wasn't around. Like I said I don't blame them, they will use the nearest published literature to show cross discipline collaboration, a huge thing in universities. Poor Raghavan has gotten involved with hard hitters in OIT circles on tweeter since the pre print came out and has already been backing down from a lot of his conclusions that are based on references to Witzel.

poi
06-15-2018, 04:29 AM
I agree but the baseline models on which Reich ends up drawing conclusions on is ultimately built from existing models forwarded from 1873 when genetics wasn't around. Like I said I don't blame them, they will use the nearest published literature to show cross discipline collaboration, a huge thing in universities. Poor Raghavan has gotten involved with hard hitters in OIT circles on tweeter since the pre print came out and has already been backing down from a lot of his conclusions that are based on references to Witzel.

True, the baseline was there. There was no other alternative. Eventually, it's gonna sort itself out. This is a new field with no money in line (except national/ethnic/racial pride). If this was a debate on climate, etc., where industries and economies are directly affected, I would be worried about long running biases suppressing the scientific evidence. But this is prehistorical population history and Steppe vs OIT has no money involvement(except a lot of pride). Science will not stop.

redifflal
06-15-2018, 05:01 AM
True, the baseline was there. There was no other alternative. Eventually, it's gonna sort itself out. This is a new field with no money in line (except national/ethnic/racial pride). If this was a debate on climate, etc., where industries and economies are directly affected, I would be worried about long running biases suppressing the scientific evidence. But this is prehistorical population history and Steppe vs OIT has no money involvement(except a lot of pride). Science will not stop.

I sincerely hope so. Although I do feel paranoid over some break India stuff. Like in 2012 this movie came out with lot of high publicity. Listen to the first three minutes of intro talking of Aryan invasion.

https://youtu.be/g5C5CagzFDk
There's a lot of politics at stake with this and I fear the damage is already done with media dramatization like above

poi
06-15-2018, 06:04 AM
I sincerely hope so. Although I do feel paranoid over some break India stuff. Like in 2012 this movie came out with lot of high publicity. Listen to the first three minutes of intro talking of Aryan invasion.

There's a lot of politics at stake with this and I fear the damage is already done with media dramatization like above

Persecution complex is huge and gives a sense of identity. It is also a big business. Truly a first world problem. Given a lot of previously overlooked/marginalized groups like Tribals are "joining" society, I can only imagine what they would be feeling when they start having these first-world problems -- watching movies about their meek ancestors facing massive persecution by the evil Brahmins lol.


Obviously the Brahmins didnt go straight to the Gangetic plain, given the whole Rigved is based around Sapta Sindhu.

Which is interesting indeed. I did not mean that they physically skipped IVC, btw. In the epics, the Brahmins were always in the forests, in their ashrams or huts, and very rarely within the city limits except for the royal purohits' family.

poi
06-15-2018, 06:17 AM
I would advise you not to have such an optimistic view. Reich may be unbiased, or not, I dont know, but he works in Western Academia, and that whole thing is as biased as can be.

If you think you need more data to refute the AIT, then you are mistaken. There is ample data available, and myself as an amateur have come up with a better theory than what has yet been proposed by the Western Academic. It is only because they are biased that they show so little results.

Indo European has nothing to do with genetics. Large groups can invade and become assimilated (Mongols and Parthians are good examples) and small elite groups can change a whole culture and language with little genetic impact (colonialism, global english, western democracy, technology etc)

I agree with most of what you said, particularly about the Mongols and the English, but not the AIT bit. It does not matter if Steppe brought Sanskrit or Iran_N brought Sanskrit, it is STILL AMT(I don't particuarly care for AIT due to hyperbole involved).

If Steppe=P/IE, then OIT is dead for sure. If Iran_N=P/IE then the only way OIT survives is to make Iran_N->India_N lol

bol_nat
06-16-2018, 06:11 AM
I have a theory, which I'll post and scoot if anybody wants to ask for evidence. Caste is indigenous to subcontinent and Vedas to northern part so is Sanskrit. Steppe groups like Sakas that entered got pushed down the hierarchy once settled due to foreign origins. I would really like to know given a region, say Punjab, is Steppe highest in the Brahmins or in the warrior castes? My belief is that some warrior castes have twice the average steppe contribution than a Brahmin within the same ethnic group. This study needs to be made instead of clustering studies about upper caste vs lower caste. I'm sure in Punjabis the Jatts have higher steppe than Brahmins. In Bengalis also any given Bose or Roychoudhary has more chance of phenotypically exhibiting much more Caucasoid features than a given Banerjee Chatterjee etc.
Next part is everyone is more or less in agreement that in subcultures and various contexts, south Asians also selected for lighter complexion and Caucasoid features. So various indigenous groups like Brahmins or pre steppe kshatriyas used their caste advantage to marry lighter females from lower castes. This may have upped the steppe amount in Brahmins from what may have been at a similar level as the resident Shudra to an intermediate point to the warrior caste.
There is no use tracking this through uniparental markers because those could be lost in one generation if that initial steppe impulse in post Vedic era is male mediated. Ex we had a maid in India, her father was Englishman who had impregnated his maid right around 1947 and then left on his ship to UK. Now this lady grew up in slum in India and took up her mother's identity obviously. She had difficulty getting married off because in Bengali Hindus still in 60s the fair and lovely culture had not yet penetrated to slum levels. But her daughters had no problem marrying and actually married urban middle class upper caste Bengali guys house where she worked, because by then fair and lovely culture had penetrated, so imagine you in India now having a light skinned red freckled blue eyed maid, you're gonna holler. So similar way, maybe this happened in past also that various upper caste groups upped their steppe content from marrying girls from more Caucasoid communities in lower castes.

Steppe in brahmins and others in NW is pretty much same with in same ethnic group. I don't know if we have any sample from moyhal brahmins of punjab but I believe they will be similar to others in punjab.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 12:37 PM
Steppe in brahmins and others in NW is pretty much same with in same ethnic group. I don't know if we have any sample from moyhal brahmins of punjab but I believe they will be similar to others in punjab.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said first isolate to one ethnic group geographically. That can be Punjabis, Kashmiris, Bhojpuris, Gujaratis, Tulus whatever. Then tell me inside of said ethnic group, are Brahmins of said ethnic group the highest steppe bearers or certain other castes with much more open interpretation to their position in the hierarchy the ones with higher steppe? I think various male meditate central Asian pre Islamic groups like Sakas an nd Huna and Yavanas and Kamboj etc were originally given Shudra caste. But functionally since they had military expertise, they would attempt to be placed and accepted as kshatriyas. Now if there exists some kind of fair and lovely culture locally, then it can be that various upper castes found it convenient to take brides from these high steppe groups and so this could explain why steppe is higher by a little bit in Brahmins. But I'm pretty sure them Thakurs and Rajputs and Jatts etc are the source of steppe in Brahmins, not the fatherlines...

Saad2016
06-16-2018, 12:50 PM
A lot of theories vs theories thread!

redifflal
06-16-2018, 01:39 PM
A lot of theories vs theories thread!

The problem is you can scour over all the extant studies and you will realize the level of lameness in competence levels when they record in tables categories like 1) Brahmin-India 2) Brahmin-Tiwari 3) Paniya 4) Tamil 5) Telugu Reddy
Like seriously who the eff designs these experiments? Why they don't record all relevant things of their individuals being tested instead of throwing out what looks like random level of detail? They should record language, caste, subcaste, GOTRA (hello has anyone had the bright idea yet of correlating gotras to yhaps). Instead in the conclusion paragraphs everyone sugarcoat their incompetence by saying "complex migration patterns" like come on...

So not only are you dealing with a 1000x disparity in amounts and resolution of aDNA to build models for subcontinent, the studies on modern populations are complete garbage in garbage out. The science has good potential, but these folks straightjacket themselves to stay within bounds of 19th century linguistic models to the point where last Reich paper in their modern population analysis throws out like 80 out of 220 samples because it doesn't fit some cline and throws out 250 million Indo-Gangetic plains Bengalis because it doesn't fit a cline... like really? Also they present autosomal cluster of Punjabi at one end and some tribe on other? Are 200 million Punjabis really a genetic cluster to compare against some tribe with five thousand members?

Saad2016
06-16-2018, 01:43 PM
The problem is you can scour over all the extant studies and you will realize the level of lameness in competence levels when they record in tables categories like 1) Brahmin-India 2) Brahmin-Tiwari 3) Paniya 4) Tamil 5) Telugu Reddy
Like seriously who the eff designs these experiments? Why they don't record all relevant things of their individuals being tested instead of throwing out what looks like random level of detail? They should record language, caste, subcaste, GOTRA (hello has anyone had the bright idea yet of correlating gotras to yhaps). Instead in the conclusion paragraphs everyone sugarcoat their incompetence by saying "complex migration patterns" like come on...

I am very new to this and get very confused when I read these discussions. Aryan Invasion vs non Aryan theory. Would it not safe to assume that current day indian/pakistanies/bengalies/sri lankans/ are mixtures of Aryans and Dravidians.

bol_nat
06-16-2018, 02:19 PM
You misunderstood what I wrote. I said first isolate to one ethnic group geographically. That can be Punjabis, Kashmiris, Bhojpuris, Gujaratis, Tulus whatever. Then tell me inside of said ethnic group, are Brahmins of said ethnic group the highest steppe bearers or certain other castes with much more open interpretation to their position in the hierarchy the ones with higher steppe? I think various male meditate central Asian pre Islamic groups like Sakas an nd Huna and Yavanas and Kamboj etc were originally given Shudra caste. But functionally since they had military expertise, they would attempt to be placed and accepted as kshatriyas. Now if there exists some kind of fair and lovely culture locally, then it can be that various upper castes found it convenient to take brides from these high steppe groups and so this could explain why steppe is higher by a little bit in Brahmins. But I'm pretty sure them Thakurs and Rajputs and Jatts etc are the source of steppe in Brahmins, not the fatherlines...

I think you didn’t understand what I said. Punjabi brahmins actually have higher steppe then majority of greater punjab population. So your theory doesn’t apply to punjab. Only community which consistently score bit higher steppe then punjabi brahmin by at best 2-3% are sikh jatts in greater punjab. Not rajputs or even all jatts.

Now in other regions outside punjab, brahmins always score much much more steppe then native population. For exemple bengali brahmins didn’t increase their steppe by marrying other bengalis of little to no steppe.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 02:38 PM
I think you didn’t understand what I said. Punjabi brahmins actually have higher steppe then majority of greater punjab population. So your theory doesn’t apply to punjab. Only community which consistently score bit higher steppe then punjabi brahmin by at best 2-3% are sikh jatts in greater punjab. Not rajputs or even all jatts.

Now in other regions outside punjab, brahmins always score much much more steppe then native population. For exemple bengali brahmins didn’t increase their steppe by marrying other bengalis of little to no steppe.

Bengali KULIN Brahmins with surnames Banerjee/Bandopadhyay, Chatterjee/Chattopadhyay, Mukherjee/Mukhopadhyay, Bhattacharjee/Bhattacharya and Ganguly/Gangopadhyay are getting higher Steppe than rest of Bengalis because they moved from Kannauj UP to Bengal at the invite of Sen dynasty to do religious work in Bengal. This is a historical recorded migration not even more than a thousand years old.
Show the study which is making level of distinction of Bengali Kulin vs non-Kulin Brahmins. None-->Laziness, this kind of stuff any street level guy knows. There are non-Kulin or pre-Kulin Bengali Brahmins with surnames Ghoshal, Lahiri, Sanyal etc. Do they also have higher Steppe? Highly doubtful. Either way, if folks writing their conclusions are going to be lazy about the levels of resolution required (and available on the street) but not taken into account, then I have to pass on these things.

bol_nat
06-16-2018, 03:29 PM
Bengali KULIN Brahmins with surnames Banerjee/Bandopadhyay, Chatterjee/Chattopadhyay, Mukherjee/Mukhopadhyay, Bhattacharjee/Bhattacharya and Ganguly/Gangopadhyay are getting higher Steppe than rest of Bengalis because they moved from Kannauj UP to Bengal at the invite of Sen dynasty to do religious work in Bengal. This is a historical recorded migration not even more than a thousand years old.
Show the study which is making level of distinction of Bengali Kulin vs non-Kulin Brahmins. None-->Laziness, this kind of stuff any street level guy knows. There are non-Kulin or pre-Kulin Bengali Brahmins with surnames Ghoshal, Lahiri, Sanyal etc. Do they also have higher Steppe? Highly doubtful. Either way, if folks writing their conclusions are going to be lazy about the levels of resolution required (and available on the street) but not taken into account, then I have to pass on these things.

But you also have to take in account higher ratio of steppe in brahmins of North and east India compared to NW steppe shifted groups. This point towards the fact that brahmin steppe genes have only decreased with time and depending on where they went.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 03:41 PM
But you also have to take in account higher ratio of steppe in brahmins of North and east India compared to NW steppe shifted groups. This point towards the fact that brahmin steppe genes have only decreased with time and depending on where they went.

Brahmins in UP and Bihar have higher Steppe than non Brahmins in Punjab? Which ones? Also the Kulin non Kulin distinction I know of being of Bengali Brahmin parentage myself. What other distinctions are there in all these regions around the subcontinent? I've heard of Marathas having Chitpavan Brahmins known for having colored eyes like Ajit Agarkar but there is also a Deshastha Brahmin among Marathas who historically looked down on Chitpavan. Are Deshastha having high steppe like I'd imagine Chitpavan having or are they similar to other Maratha castes? Which ones?
The details on these studies are woefully inadequate and inappropriate to draw conclusions (which in turn become allegations because we know the political twist on all these things) towards the foreign parentage of Brahmins...

bol_nat
06-16-2018, 03:47 PM
To explain higher ratio of steppe in north and east Indian brahmins heavy steppe shifted central asians sakas or kushans after conquering gave their pure steppe shifted daughters to north Indian brahmins who were looking to marry fair and lovely ladies. This sound far fetched, other way around is more likely in this scenario.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-16-2018, 03:57 PM
Bengali KULIN Brahmins with surnames Banerjee/Bandopadhyay, Chatterjee/Chattopadhyay, Mukherjee/Mukhopadhyay, Bhattacharjee/Bhattacharya and Ganguly/Gangopadhyay are getting higher Steppe than rest of Bengalis because they moved from Kannauj UP to Bengal at the invite of Sen dynasty to do religious work in Bengal. This is a historical recorded migration not even more than a thousand years old.
Show the study which is making level of distinction of Bengali Kulin vs non-Kulin Brahmins. None-->Laziness, this kind of stuff any street level guy knows. There are non-Kulin or pre-Kulin Bengali Brahmins with surnames Ghoshal, Lahiri, Sanyal etc. Do they also have higher Steppe? Highly doubtful. Either way, if folks writing their conclusions are going to be lazy about the levels of resolution required (and available on the street) but not taken into account, then I have to pass on these things.

I have seen results of a lahiri chap, he scored 9 ne euro. I'll try to find the results.

Found it:

Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.7
2 Baloch 32.15
3 NE-Euro 8.64
4 SE-Asian 3.32
5 NE-Asian 3.42
6 Caucasian 2.71
7 Siberian 0.9
8 Papuan 0.8
9 Pygmy 0.16
10 Mediterranean 1.11
11 W-African 0.08

redifflal
06-16-2018, 04:21 PM
To explain higher ratio of steppe in north and east Indian brahmins heavy steppe shifted central asians sakas or kushans after conquering gave their pure steppe shifted daughters to north Indian brahmins who were looking to marry fair and lovely ladies. This sound far fetched, other way around is more likely in this scenario.

Well those steppe groups themselves did not become Brahmins. They transitioned from Shudra to Kshatriya, and Brahmin have historically taken wives from Kshatriya groups if Brahmin is unavailable. You do know the main difference between the Saka/Kushan etc from Turk/Mongols etc is former assimilated into and accepted Hindu system whereas latter had fervor of new religion Islam to prevent assimilation... hence main reason for ancient central vs south Asian racial tension to get exacerbated into a Hindu Muslim tension. Brahmin Kshatriya tension is captured in story of Parashuram destroying all Kshatriya clans, so this might also be metaphorical for the old tensions.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-16-2018, 04:33 PM
Well those steppe groups themselves did not become Brahmins. They transitioned from Shudra to Kshatriya, and Brahmin have historically taken wives from Kshatriya groups if Brahmin is unavailable. You do know the main difference between the Saka/Kushan etc from Turk/Mongols etc is former assimilated into and accepted Hindu system whereas latter had fervor of new religion Islam to prevent assimilation... hence main reason for ancient central vs south Asian racial tension to get exacerbated into a Hindu Muslim tension. Brahmin Kshatriya tension is captured in story of Parashuram destroying all Kshatriya clans, so this might also be metaphorical for the old tensions.

The issue with the theory of Brahmins taking saka or steppe people wives is that the maternal line M dominance in South Asia. While the paternal lines are dominated by non South Asian lines.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 04:42 PM
I have seen results of a lahiri chap, he scored 9 ne euro. I'll try to find the results.

Found it:

Population Percent
1 S-Indian 46.7
2 Baloch 32.15
3 NE-Euro 8.64
4 SE-Asian 3.32
5 NE-Asian 3.42
6 Caucasian 2.71
7 Siberian 0.9
8 Papuan 0.8
9 Pygmy 0.16
10 Mediterranean 1.11
11 W-African 0.08

Can that be compared to a Bose or Basu? Ghosh? Roy? Roychoudhary? Mazumdar? Chakraborty? Sen? Pal? Gupta? Dasgupta?

redifflal
06-16-2018, 04:49 PM
The issue with the theory of Brahmins taking saka or steppe people wives is that the maternal line M dominance in South Asia. While the paternal lines are dominated by non South Asian lines.

They would be taking wives from lower caste communities with steppe fathers and Indian mothers. So Indian mtdna prevails while steppe autosomal goes up for the Brahmins...

MonkeyDLuffy
06-16-2018, 04:50 PM
Can that be compared to a Bose or Basu? Ghosh? Roy? Roychoudhary? Mazumdar? Chakraborty? Sen? Pal? Gupta? Dasgupta?

I can certainly find them as well via matches. Gupta won't work since it is used largely by baniyas. Rest I can definitely find.

prashantvaidwan
06-16-2018, 04:54 PM
The issue with the theory of Brahmins taking saka or steppe people wives is that the maternal line M dominance in South Asia. While the paternal lines are dominated by non South Asian lines. it has been seen the overwhelming founder effect in some brahmin groups as Bengali brahmins with 72% r1a. R1a is widely considered a steppe father line.. On the other hand most steppe shifted jatts are dominated by l haplo.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-16-2018, 04:56 PM
it has been seen the overwhelming founder effect in some brahmin groups as Bengali brahmins with 72% r1a. R1a is widely considered a steppe Catherine. On the other hand most steppe shifted jatts are dominated by l haplo.

Nah, R1a and L are same ratio, Haryana jatts and Rajsthani jatts seems to be more R1a.

prashantvaidwan
06-16-2018, 05:07 PM
Nah, R1a and L are same ratio, Haryana jatts and Rajsthani jatts seems to be more R1a.

Right. Still it is not entirely r1a show. Brahmins taking brides from later coming steppe group does not make sense. Northwestern is totally oblivion of this phenomenon . Though brahmins Rajputs marriage alliances are seen in Nepal and Bengal and these Kshatriyas are less steppe in comparison of brahmins of the same region in most of the samples I have seen.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-16-2018, 05:10 PM
Right. Still it is not entirely r1a show. Brahmins taking brides from later coming steppe group does not make sense. Northwestern is totally oblivion of this phenomenon . Though brahmins Rajputs marriage alliances are seen in Nepal and Bengal and these Kshatriyas are less steppe in comparison of brahmins of the same region in most of the samples I have seen.

Oh yea I totally agree, OIT is a crazy theory.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 06:32 PM
Right. Still it is not entirely r1a show. Brahmins taking brides from later coming steppe group does not make sense. Northwestern is totally oblivion of this phenomenon . Though brahmins Rajputs marriage alliances are seen in Nepal and Bengal and these Kshatriyas are less steppe in comparison of brahmins of the same region in most of the samples I have seen.

Arranged inter-caste marriage is never a "celebrated" phenomenon historically. It is something that happened rarely when appropriate same caste brides are unavailable, and the social hierarchy allowed for ways to get around the issue by only allowing bride taking from lower communities. Also keep in mind that the man's side overall loses status by doing so and might set itself up for having trouble to get their own women married in their own level in the future.

My Bengali Brahmin folks have taken non-Brahmin wife only once in last 400 years, an event that is very redefining of the lineage compared to all marriages prior to it as well as marriages after it. Prior to that they were regular pujari/bhikkhu types in small villages. Around late 1600s a Bengali Kayastha zamindar and co-founding-father of Kolkata city Sabarna Roychoudhary had no sons and wished his 3 daughters marry into Brahmins as it is status-up for him. I don't have access to this Kayastha ancestor ladies' DNA from 1600s obviously, but I have gone to school around Bengali Hindus of all castes and as a rule I noticed the Roy's, Bose's, Ghosh's had much more NW shifted phenos compared to even us Kulin Brahmins. I'm fairly certain intermarriage with Kayastha Zamindar clan increased our Steppe.
As far as implications of that marriage, I will just mention that those 3 guys lost status among other Brahmins because they took up a nontraditional job for Brahmins which is Zamindari/landholding. These 3 families intermarry to the level of inbreeding for last 400 years because they were unable to get Brahmin brides from the root villages where they stayed true to orthodox Brahminical lifestyle of living on alms only. Remember caste system is at end of the day not an economic hierarchy but a spiritual one. The Brahmin lifestyle is meant to live aloof from monetary and food concerns to be best set up for liberation of the soul. Once a Brahmin takes up a lifestyle like landlording, that line loses status in Brahmin circles.
Only mentioning above to show that intercaste marriage is generally highly frowned upon and happens circumstantially. You can imagine the types of snide comments made on my particular line's like "oh they married for money yuck". So it wouldn't be something celebrated or written about. Only reason we know of this particular incident is because A it is my own line, and B the old spiritual ladder is defacto turning into an economic one anyway. So by becoming landlords, also want to mention that Bengali Hindu landlords had lot of interactions with Britishers, this Brahmin line also started getting Westernized culturally, rubbing shoulders with whites (mleccha, if you want to know how this was taken in society, maybe read Tagore's story Gora or there is also movie on Antony Firingi, or look at fact that whites aren't allowed inside orthodox Hindu temples like Jagannath Mandir in Orissa to this day both as tourists or as devotees), sending girls to get educated, etc. Basically when you start going down the ladder, the ball accelerates on downward trajectory. But it is because of Western education in our families for 5+ generations including women that we are economically high now.

Parallel to us there is another example of Bengali Brahmins that had Zamindari positions called the famous Tagore family. They had originally lost status possibly a century prior to our line by becoming Pirili Brahmins. The apologetic from their side is their ancestor lost status because he was caught enjoying the aromas of mutton being cooked by Muslims. Truth is probably in that story as well as that they became landlords by rubbing shoulders with Mughal powers in medieval times similar to how mine became zamindars by rubbing shoulders with Kayastha landlords and collaborators of British. Either way the Pirili Brahmin line lost status very fast as well. When Sharmila Tagore married Mansur Ali Khan the nawab of Pataudi, everyone was like "what's left of that line? Now they are marrying into Muslims"...

With above examples I'm just showing that intercaste arranged marriage happened very rarely, probably brushed under the carpet by the group that did it whereas remembered in oral memory by those around to protect their own status. Now my family is marrying outside of Bengalis, outside of India, all kinds of Jews, blacks, Chinese, Italians, whites in my near extended family lol. We have downhill-ski'd fast

bol_nat
06-16-2018, 06:50 PM
Well those steppe groups themselves did not become Brahmins. They transitioned from Shudra to Kshatriya, and Brahmin have historically taken wives from Kshatriya groups if Brahmin is unavailable. You do know the main difference between the Saka/Kushan etc from Turk/Mongols etc is former assimilated into and accepted Hindu system whereas latter had fervor of new religion Islam to prevent assimilation... hence main reason for ancient central vs south Asian racial tension to get exacerbated into a Hindu Muslim tension. Brahmin Kshatriya tension is captured in story of Parashuram destroying all Kshatriya clans, so this might also be metaphorical for the old tensions.

How do you explain UP kashtriyas scoring less steppe then UP brahmins.

redifflal
06-16-2018, 07:21 PM
How do you explain UP kashtriyas scoring less steppe then UP brahmins.

Look man, I refuse to operate on these terms like Brahmin or even less so with Kshatriya. Within a region if there are 2-3 subtypes of Brahmins, then there are are 20-30 subtypes of Kshatriyas, 200-300 subtypes of merchant castes, goodness knows of all the variations within OBC, SC and ST and in those also there is hierarchies practiced stringently. Are you averaging out all UP Kshatriyas? What if a particular subtype of UP Kshatriyas has literal oral history of descent from Sakas and another has literal oral history of coming from Bhil background? Are you just going to ignore that juicy piece of information? Like come on, we need to ramp up from this lack of resolution, again when it is available at a street level in a caste-conscious land. This stuff is easy peasy work for anthropologists and geneticists, that is if they wanted.

Maybe the existing Saxena's (Saka+Sena/Army) have been intermarrying with Bijur's (name of town in Karnataka) and Verma's for what like close to 2000+ years, whereas maybe the daughters of Saxena's back when Saxena were purer descended from their Saka ancestors have periodically gone in to Sharma or Tiwari (UP Brahmin) households. I don't know dude. This stuff is complicated. I know that much. But the papers need to be using the level of science available and level of oral/anthropological knowledge available to clear the complications. So far I grade them at F- level...

lgmayka
06-16-2018, 11:37 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Please learn to read a haplotree, and to understand its implications.

R-M459 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-M459/) divides into the rare R-YP1272 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/) (Eastern European and North African) and R-M198.
R-M198 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-M198/) divides into the rare R-YP1051 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1051/) (European) and R-M417.
R-M417 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-M417/) divides into R-CTS4385 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4385/) (European) and R-Z645.
R-Z645 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/) divides into the prolific R-Z283 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/) (European except for the much younger R-YP4858 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP4858/) sub-sub-subclade) and R-Z93.
R-Z93 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/) divides into many rare singletons and subclades (mostly European) and R-Z94.
R-Z94 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z94/) divides into R-Y3 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y3/) (Asian), R-Y40 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y40/) (mostly Asian), and R-Z2124 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/) (mixed European and Asian).

It is clear that R1a was European until the split-up of R-Z94.

poi
06-17-2018, 12:28 AM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

We're in the wait-and-see mode. The incumbent hypothesis is steppe, so it is being probed from all angles. Just the way it should be. We will see whether it holds up or something else takes over. Honestly, I want a bit of chaos. So, I'm personally rooting against the steppe hypothesis. But what I believe has no importance. It is just my own. Let's see the data on IVC era chariots. And L657 from ancient South Asia.

Squad
06-17-2018, 12:32 AM
Yeah right, keep wishing R1a to be indian...

bmoney
06-17-2018, 03:36 AM
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Bro youre like the Indian m85

I'm not sure if it was an invasion but it certainly was some form of elite dominance.

Can you explain to me why Brahmins score much higher steppe ancestry (accounting for regional differences) and higher r1a coincidentally. I'll wait.

Agree with the 'Aryan' word adoption though, even though it adds barely any weight to your argument.

I'm not sure if Aryan goes back to PIE and it might be a non-IE loan word the Indo-Iranians picked up from the BMAC instead

pegasus
06-17-2018, 03:52 AM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post


What you are talking is circumstantial and hypothetical. The fact is the genetics is there, this Steppe ancestry is intrusive to South Asia and comes in waves first in the Bronze Age and from the way its shaping upto to be another wave via SC Asian groups in Antiquity. Germanic does not derive from Steppe Indo Iranians lol.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 05:49 AM
Corrected for you buddy, as per the above examples of loony anti-logical, OIT reasoning
Oh yea I totally agree, OIT is a crazy theory.
Honestly mate, you sound like a banned troll. So far you've only posted sentiments and guesses, while multiple users have posted equal arguments. Calling someone's argument bullshit is not the way to argue. Tells a lot about the person.

poi
06-17-2018, 06:00 AM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Dude, you need to chill a bit. You certainly aren't going to be changing minds by ranting and attacking. And "South Indians" can't participate in this because why? Spend your energy on something constructive.

Squad
06-17-2018, 06:14 AM
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I'm not european, I'm merely stating facts from my very good understanding of haplogroup dynamism.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 06:22 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

I said adjusted for geography but Punjab overall has more of a genetic impact from post-Indo-Aryan migrations

What are you by the way? 'North Indian' isnt a term you can hide behind, its not a genetic construct. Theres a lot diversity there as much as you pretend its one casteless genetic unit

You get pissed off a lot but can barely string a bunch of sentences together to create an argument. Why should a low IQ peasant like you be allowed to discuss the noble IVC?

bmoney
06-17-2018, 06:32 AM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

You're literally the definition of a troll.

This is a genetics forum, not a forum to discuss theories based on chariots and getting pissed off

The IVC was not Indo-Aryan

All South Asians have IVC ancestry

bmoney
06-17-2018, 06:38 AM
Dude, you need to chill a bit. You certainly aren't going to be changing minds by ranting and attacking. And "South Indians" can't participate in this because why? Spend your energy on something constructive.

Yep South Indians cant participate even though some South Indian members in this forum scored 90%+ SISBA3'

Anyway the Rakhigarhi remains will be interesting, I wonder whats next for this guys #identitycrisis

bmoney
06-17-2018, 06:46 AM
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Did you look at the Y-DNA wiki page? do you know how to sort a list by descending order

Also, I don't think Indo-Aryans are foreigners, you're strawmanning me into someone you met on one of your pseudoscience forums where your argument was probably considered highbrow and great. Indo-Aryans, AASI and Iran_N all form part of native South Asian history (the latter 2 mainly for the South of India)

All South Asians (like Europeans) are the product of multiple migrations, even AASI was a migrant at one point along the southern coastal route.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 07:01 AM
Niraj Rai has earlier told the results do support Aryan migration theory . I think the journalist might have confused what was told to him . The lack of steppe in Indus valley should actually support AMT/AIT rather than discrediting it . Vasant Shinde though it seems to support indigenous Aryan theory .

yes all over the shop in terms of reaching their conclusions. Since there was no steppe dna, it appears there were no Indo-Aryans in Rakhigarhi at that time

bmoney
06-17-2018, 07:08 AM
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No actually, some Punjabis have a remarkable continuity from the Swat IA samples. A member in this forum just modelled this today.

And Brahmins show elevated steppe as expected, even on top of Swat IA.

Why are we arguing about this? what does it have to do with OIT

bmoney
06-17-2018, 07:47 AM
Ohh, i see what you're trying to say.

Your premises:
-the IVC was partly in Punjab
-Steppe dna is high in modern Punjab

conclusion: steppe DNA is indigenous to the IVC and Brahmins originated from there.

Yeah no, those conditions don't satisfy the conclusion as theres a clear timing issue around when steppeDNA shows up. The article the thread is based on finished off any doubt.

You'd also have to prove how IVC cultural features didn't come with the Proto-Indo-Europeans out of South Asia and how R1a is native to South Asia

Also the Southern Indus and the Mehrgarh area (Baloch/Brahui/Memon/Khojas) is relatively low steppe even compared to UP Brahmins.

The strongest correlation is with Brahmins and steppedna, not with Punjab and steppedna, though Punjab has high levels of both Iran_N and Steppe in general (varies by group). Nepal Brahmins have higher steppe ancestry than most or all Punjabis for example

And, based on your IVC steppe dna dilution theory, steppe levels should go down. Instead they went up over time in Punjab based on the paper:

Later samples from the Swat time transect from the 1st millennium BCE had higher proportions of Steppe and AASI derived ancestry more similar to that found on the Indian Cline, showing that there was an increasing percolation of Steppe derived ancestry into the region and additional admixture with the ASI through time.

The additional Sintashta could have come via Sakas, Hunas and what not. The Jatts for example show additional steppe ancestry than what was found in the Swat samples

Finally, you being of UP Muslim background (which I respect), should embrace your common ancestry with South Indians instead of calling it a political construct:

up-muslim up-muslim tamil
harappa metspalu harappa
9 5 3
S Indian 34% 53% 53%
Baloch 33% 33% 32%
Caucasian 11% 3% 5%
NE Euro 8% 5% 1%
SE Asian 2% 1% 1%
Siberian 2% 0% 2%
NE Asian 1% 2% 1%
Papuan 1% 1% 1%
American 1% 0% 1%
Beringian 1% 1% 0%
Mediterranean 2% 1% 0%
SW Asian 2% 0% 2%
San 0% 0% 0%
E African 0% 0% 1%
Pygmy 0% 0% 0%
W African 0% 0% 0%

pegasus
06-17-2018, 08:33 AM
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Before PlantingMapleSaplings on everyone, try and be more logical. He does not have to prove sh!t , the results are available . You look like another banned member do you need some Burnol?

bmoney
06-17-2018, 08:51 AM
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Youre getting the other less SI UP-Muslim group as a match.

And most Gujarati Patels cluster with mid-caste South Indians, Gujaratis if anything have a weaker link to the steppe and a stronger link to the IVC.

Brahmins controlling for their region, except Punjab which seems to be a bit different due to the biradari presence, have higher steppe ancestry than other groups from their region. Other non-Brahmin groups also brought steppe so wtf you on about no one said they didn't

khanabadoshi
06-17-2018, 09:09 AM
Moderator:

Gentlemen, I implore you to acquire some chill. Take some deep breaths.... something something Yoga something IVC culture? Count to 10... something something number 0 something IVC culture? If you don't, I'll call Baba Reza, Sher Khan of Bengal. He is like Brad Pitt in Inglourious Basterds when it comes to swinging that banhammer.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 09:32 AM
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Good for you, I'm sure thats working out great for you in the UK.

Anyway you're confusing migration dates, conflating different migrations, assuming steppedna was present in the IVC smh

Nepali Brahmins are a group who have higher steppe ancestry than Punjabi groups except the Jatts.

Good luck convincing all of us that Brahmins of India descend from the Jatts (or Gujjars) who were historically avarna. You might have trouble understanding Hinduism if you think this is a plausible scenario. I wish you success

I think the Gujjars have lower steppe than UP Brahmins and higher Iran_N, do we have a Gujjar G25 run?


Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Also your Aryan highness now won't consider low-castes Aryan? What about your fellow Gujaratis, they can't claim descent from the IVC now due to not being as Aryan as you?

gujarati gujarati-a gujarati-a gujarati-b gujarati-patel tamil
harappa 1000genomes hapmap hapmap harappa harappa
4 5 63 34 2 3
S Indian 46% 53% 54% 44% 55% 53%
Baloch 37% 41% 42% 39% 41% 32%
Caucasian 4% 1% 0% 5% 0% 5%
NE Euro 5% 1% 1% 7% 0% 1%
SE Asian 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 1%
Siberian 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 2%
NE Asian 1% 0% 0% 0% 1% 1%
Papuan 1% 0% 0% 0% 1% 1%
American 1% 0% 0% 1% 0% 1%
Beringian 1% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
Mediterranean 1% 1% 1% 1% 2% 0%
SW Asian 1% 1% 0% 1% 0% 2%
San 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
E African 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 1%
Pygmy 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
W African 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%

khanabadoshi
06-17-2018, 09:43 AM
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I've edited posts to acquire a standard of chill I deem acceptable.
You need to respond to debate with a lot less Pathos and a little more Logos.

You will likely be banned if you keep your current trajectory. It is your good fortune that I am the one in this thread right now and Reza is not.

If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion in a non-moderator capacity: Type out your entire theory and argument on a word processor, read it over a few times, find a few sources for it, and then post it. You are making a large argument in a very piecemeal fashion and getting frustrated that people are not getting the whole picture. This is because you are not painting the entirety of your vision on the canvass; either because you haven't tried, or -- as others are alluding -- there isn't enough on the palette to paint the picture you envision.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 10:13 AM
What?? you're confusing me using half-assed criss-crossed assertions that lead nowhere

Brahmins are differentiated in Punjab, they just share that differentiation with biradari castes (who have avarna histories without Brahmin gotras, read this up). Have you heard of PJL?

Also Punjabi Brahmins score differently to modern Jatts and Jatts do not get Brahmins from Punjab or other parts of India as matches on 23andme (Sapporo has told me). There is no history of shared descent between Punjabi Brahmins and Punjabi Gujjars and Jatts, so where are you coming up with this

And yes Gujaratis would have high levels of ancestry from the IVC along with Southern Indus people, but so do all South Asians including Sri Lankans, Bengalis, and Nepalis due to a concept called DNA

Sapporo
06-17-2018, 10:42 AM
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So your argument rests heavily on Punjabi Brahmins/Brahmin groups sharing an origin with Punjabi biradaris such as Jatts, Gujjar, Arain, Tarkhan, Khatri, Saini, etc?

That doesn't seem to be the case. Neither admixture, haplogroup data or history support this. Now, I'm not suggesting the admixture is world's part but it is enough to follow certain trends.

I'm not sure how well versed you are on Punjab but there is great historical animosity in Punjab between Jatts and Brahmins in particular. However, other Punjabi biradaris aren't exactly fond of Brahmins either. It is most likely related to Brahmins labeling avarna/mleccha tribes like Jatts as shudras. In fact, the hostility between Brahmins and Jatts exists to this day. Many Jatt Sikhs don't even consider Punjabi Brahmins as ethnic Punjabis. If we shared common origins, I would imagine modern inter tribe/caste relations would be much better.

Also, bmoney is right. Other than Jatt Sikhs and some Central Punjab Muslim Jatts, many Northern Indian Brahmins are equivalent or higher in steppe to other Punjabis (Arain, Gujjar, Tarkhan, etc.) on a group level. Although, individually, some Khatris, Rajputs, Tarkhans, etc. can be higher Steppe. Eastern UP Brahmins and Nepali Brahmins are good example of Brahmin groups who have higher Steppe than the average biradari Punjabi while being significantly less "West Asian" like (mostly Iran N).

Sapporo
06-17-2018, 11:22 AM
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Wrong. Jatts are just as endogamous as Brahmins if not more so. Punjabi biradaris rarely marry outside their tribe or biradari. Even in Pakistani Punjab (rural areas/villages). The groups that are most likely to marry out are urban groups such as Khatris or Aroras. However, even then, most Khatris and Aroras marry within their group. In Pakistani Punjab, it's usually the upper class/bourgeois class in cities like Lahore, Islamabad, etc. that marries outside of their tribe/caste.

Who are you to decide they need to be significantly/unambiguously higher than all Punjabis? You do realize not all Punjabis share the same origin right? The Punjabi identity is less than 1000 years old. Regardless, North Indian Brahmins are notably higher Steppe than certain biradaris. If anything, the fact there are any non Brahmins of Punjab who are of supposedly lower "shudra" status that score more Steppe than Punjabi Brahmins points to a foreign origin for Steppe.


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Lower castes? Tarkhans and Arains are biradaris and aren't found in India outside of Punjab/Northwest. Neither is more AASI than Punjabi Brahmins. Also, what are you basing the comment "high ASI types migrating" to the north on?


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What results? What are you referring to exactly? Jatts do score differently than Khatris and vice versa with Arain and Gujjars. The differences or trends are more than 1-2%.

The reason it isn't so clear in Punjab is because many of the tribes or "castes" in Punjab are avarna/mleccha tribes restricted to the region (greater Punjab including parts of Rajasthan, Haryana, Jammu, etc.). Many of them don't have a notable Vedic history or outside of the varna system entirely. It's not because they share a common origin with Punjabi Brahmins. The Y-DNA differences are clear indicators that they are distinct. Paternal ancestry is the simplest way to determine common descent. 70%+ of Jatts (Sikh and Hindu) fall into two haplogroups. There is not enough data on Muslim Jatts to make a reliable assertion.


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Is it not possible for tribes such as Jatts or Arains to be late comers to the subcontinent after the caste system was already established with Brahmins on top? Otherwise, why do Brahmins consider tribes such as Jatts and Arains as "outcastes" or "shudras?" Despite being of steppe origin, Saka/Scythians were labeled mleccha "barbarians" by the the established Vedic peoples.

North Indian Brahmins have slightly more Steppe than average Punjabi biradaris but lower than Jatts.



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That's a given since the predominant ancestry in Punjab is still Iran N + AASI. However, common origin does not equal shared ancestry. You're arguing that all Punjabis have a common origin, which the distinctive enough clusters and Y-DNA show is incorrect.

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 11:39 AM
If I may please recap :

Some people are of the opinion that Brahmins(the highest religious caste India) has the highest steppe ancestry and more aryan. The counter argument is Punjabi gujjars/jatts have more steppe in them and yet they are not high castes. So Jatts are more aryan shifted than Brahmins? Am I right @ beyath?

Sapporo
06-17-2018, 11:45 AM
If I may please recap :

Some people are of the opinion that Brahmins(the highest religious caste India) has the highest steppe ancestry and more aryan. The counter argument is Punjabi gujjars/jatts have more steppe in them and yet they are not high castes. So Jatts are more aryan shifted than Brahmins? Am I right @ beyath?

The counter to that is that Jatts are not actually a caste or part of the Hindu varna system at all. Instead, they are a large mleccha/avarna tribe (restricted to the Northwest) and harbor later Steppe ancestry than Brahmins. There are plenty of individuals among Jatts who "love" to claim foreign Saka/Scythian ancestry.

Gujjars have moderate Steppe and are less steppe than Eastern UP Brahmins or Nepali Brahmins. In contrast, they are more Iran N "West Asian" like shifted.

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 12:14 PM
The counter to that is that Jatts are not actually a caste or part of the Hindu varna system at all. Instead, they are a large mleccha/avarna tribe (restricted to the Northwest) and harbor later Steppe ancestry than Brahmins. There are plenty of individuals among Jatts who "love" to claim foreign Saka/Scythian ancestry.

Gujjars have moderate Steppe and are less steppe than Eastern UP Brahmins or Nepali Brahmins. In contrast, they are more Iran N "West Asian" like shifted.

is there an easy to use steppe calculator that I can use and check mine how much steppe I have. Thanks.

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 12:17 PM
The counter to that is that Jatts are not actually a caste or part of the Hindu varna system at all. Instead, they are a large mleccha/avarna tribe (restricted to the Northwest) and harbor later Steppe ancestry than Brahmins. There are plenty of individuals among Jatts who "love" to claim foreign Saka/Scythian ancestry.

Gujjars have moderate Steppe and are less steppe than Eastern UP Brahmins or Nepali Brahmins. In contrast, they are more Iran N "West Asian" like shifted.

https://i.gyazo.com/d121135ef19bf5c848831aee6637b58c.png
I am non Aryan and not a brahman!

Sapporo
06-17-2018, 12:19 PM
is there an easy to use steppe calculator that I can use and check mine how much steppe I have. Thanks.

nnmonte is the most accurate but it requires your K25 coordinates from Davidski. Harappa is just a rough approximation of trends and individual differences.

Regarding your results from that outdated geneplaza calculator, it's not the best estimation imo. However, Kurd has more recent calculators that are better for estimating Steppe ancestry. Personally, as stated above, I believe nnmonte provides the most accurate estimation of Steppe ancestry.

I can't say where you fall in the picture without more data (such as your nnmonte results, Harappa, lukasz K47/K30 and kurd's most recent calc).

bmoney
06-17-2018, 12:31 PM
This lonely guy is claiming to be an Aryan + Indus Valley PIE elite (couldn't resist picking both) to feel better about himself, yet Gujarati Muslims score 4.763% NE Euro (less than South Indian Brahmins) on HAP and South Indian middle-castes score higher SISBA3 and therefore would more closely match the Rakhigarhi remains based on the article. Yet they can't talk about either

He also doesn't seem to understand that multiple waves of ancestry is possible in a region close to the Kazakh steppe like the Punjab

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 12:43 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

I guess your argument breaks religious barriers and that's why its a little hard for them to understand. Even the most common man in Pakistan/Afghanistan will show more Steppe than the elite Brahman of the east. Do u agree?

bmoney
06-17-2018, 12:45 PM
A thread like that would attract a lot of non forum users to register and participate and it will turn into a "tatti" show lol. It's best we keep it away from forum.

Monkey predicted it lmao.

Khana/Reza please the guy has no argument, doesn't use genetics (what this forum was named for), and already has been ID'ed as a loopy Apricity user

Before I get banned

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 12:58 PM
My two cents : lets be tolerant and let people share their perspectives and not lobby any bans re : BeyAth vs bmoney. Thank you both.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 02:01 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

They can get past Punjab for sure and admix into the bulk, however in Punjab we have more of a case of y-foundered tribes with no Vedic backstories shoehorned into Shudra by Brahmins who seem to be unfamiliar with them. Sapporos words about Jatt and Brahmin animosity make me even doubt if Brahmins had an established power structure in recent Punjab history as Brahmins do not play a major role in East or West Punjab society. The Brahmins were most undoubtedly strongest near the Ganges in terms of cultural power

Vedic Brahmins (writers) going by literature were more suspicious of northerners than anyone, as you mentioned Punjab was considered a Mleccha area in late Vedic literarure. So Brahmins and Jatts do not have a similar scenario at all

Also, as a Gujarati Muslim I'm curious as to your own tradition of caste/gotra.

Khojas and Memons for example seem to be outside the mainstream Vedic culture as does the Southern Indus in general (which plays a huge part in the IVC). I imagine they would also lack Vedic backstories.

Gujarati Muslims seem to be a mix of the above type and existing Patels going by HAP sample results

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 02:30 PM
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Err, I'm a Punjabi Sikh Tarkhan, and I am on higher steppe level, even higher than gujjars, I don't understand your claim.

Also Gujjars are not far off in terms of results from Tarkhans either, they fall on average 30-34 SI range, Tarkhans fall on 31-35 SI range. Both score similar Baloch, ne euro, same Caucasian.

Wait, Punjabi Tarkhans score more steppe than gujjars, even the exotic swat valley ones:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=drivesdk

Now please post your source rather than random claims.

Also understand the difference in labourer and carpenter. A carpenter runs his own stuff in a village and works on commissions. How is that same as labourer?

bmoney
06-17-2018, 02:35 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

So aren't you contradicting yourself? why would Brahmins hate on their own Punjabi Aryan family especially considering the importance of gotra in Aryan society which you don't seem to grasp? Punjab was known to the late Vedics as a frontier with foreign tribes moving in, from the horses mouth so to speak:

Later Vedic literature speaks of the western Anava tribes as mlecchas and occupying northern Punjab, Sindh and eastern Rajasthan. The tribes of the north were mlecchas either because they were located on the frontiers such as Gandhara, Kashmira and Kambojas and therefore both their speech and culture had become contaminated and differed from that of Āryāvarta, or else, as in the case of southern India, they were once Aryas but having forsaken the Vedic rituals were regarded to mleccha status

It seems the Vedic Brahmins and Sapporo are in agreement, whereas you are the contrarian claiming both as related

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 02:43 PM
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Read my whole post, I edited it. Not offended at all, just confused by the claim with no.backup.

Thatagus
06-17-2018, 02:49 PM
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Arrains are indeed recent migrants from south India, Gujarati Muslims like yourself are very West Eurasian shifted and are no doubt the original source of the Aryans.

This is proven by autosomal genetics.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 02:50 PM
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So you worked in Pakistan and live in the UK.

I actually lived in Gujarat and my south Indian caste was mentioned in two Brahmin historical Sanskrit texts.

The fact that you're not familiar with South Indian Brahmins or their Sanskritic corpus and Srauta Vedic rituals but yet claim Indo-Aryan culture for yourself when your community were probably historically unknown to Brahmins gives away your ABCD UK nature. At least have a deeper understanding of South Asia when searching for identity

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 02:51 PM
Arrains are indeed recent migrants from south India, Gujarati Muslims like yourself are very West Eurasian shifted and are no doubt the original source of the Aryans.

This is proven by autosomal genetics.

Is that sarcasm? Which genetics proved Arains are recent migrants from South India? They literally score like other zamindar Biradaris with high Iran N pull.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 02:53 PM
Is that sarcasm? Which genetics proved Arains are recent migrants from South India? They literally score like other zamindar Biradaris with high Iran N pull.

its sarcasm

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 02:55 PM
its sarcasm

Lmfao. My bad. I was like Arains are part of our beloved Punjabi Biradaris.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 03:01 PM
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Notice the word late in late Vedic, its obvious their culture extended to the Gangetic plains from where their late Vedic perspective was.

Who are these tribes they refer to? care to guess

MonkeyDLuffy
06-17-2018, 03:16 PM
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Please reply to your claim. No one ever claimed Tarkhans are low steppe on this forum. So I'm waiting for your reply towards the claim you made and the data I provided.

bmoney
06-17-2018, 03:18 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Yes that was the quote. I'm not sure if the Aryavarta definitions differed based on the perspective of the writer. Punjab/Gandhara was certainly an important part of the initial Indo-Aryan settlement, I would never argue against that. Look at the Swat IA samples

lgmayka
06-17-2018, 03:32 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

The above statement is utterly nonsensical, since all are branches of Indo-European. Or is it meant as some kind of bizarre ethnic slur?

lgmayka
06-17-2018, 03:34 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Which credible linguists claim that Balto-Slavic and Germanic derive from Iranian?

lgmayka
06-17-2018, 03:40 PM
Moderator: Removed reference to banned user's post

Your statement is incorrect. No credible scholar of ancient or modern DNA disputes that R-M198 is European. The minor dispute you cite is one level higher, at R-M459 (a.k.a. R-SRY1532.2). As I mentioned in a previous post, R-M459 divided into the clearly European R-M198 and the more anomalous but very rare R-YP1272 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/). The latter has been found in both Eastern Europe and North Africa, and may be present elsewhere as well. But this bifurcation of R-M459 occurred more than 14,000 years ago (https://yfull.com/tree/R-M459/), so it has no bearing on the homeland of Proto-Indo-European.

Kurd
06-17-2018, 03:45 PM
As some of you are aware, I have been working on an extensive article over the past couple of weeks to seek to address the timing and types of geneflows from the Eurasian steppe which have affected West and South Asians since the Chalcolithic. The article includes exhaustive analysis using Dstats and qpAdm tools and have been in constant correspondence with the authors of the recent papers. Some of the project members have been benefactors in this study.

As I wrap up the study over the next couple of days, a clear picture has emerged on the Bronze and Iron Age events involving the steppe and West and South Asians. Although I'm not ready to release details yet, as they will be included in the article on my website, and I promise it will be worth the wait, as there will be stuff in there that will take you days to digest, I will make a couple of general statements here, since I'm seeing that a couple of people here a little lost.

First of all, the results will of course trump anything obtained via ADMIXTURE since the analysis uses formal stats and is done on an individual genome to population comparison.

First, a little background on what has conflated results on steppe ancestry from my article:


A couple of big hurdles in western academia in determining whether Steppe-MLBA or Steppe-IA had the biggest impact on the demography of South and West Asia have been:



A shortage of appropriate Central Asian aDNA sources to date;
The wrong questions have been asked via statistical methods.

With regards to (1) above, with the aDNA published pursuant to Damgaard et al, 2018, and Narasimhan et al, 2018, we now have a decent amount of aDNA from Central Asia to make more accurate calculations.
With regards to (2) above, many papers seek to address steppe ancestry in South and West Asia via outgroup f3s and f4s, and via IBS. The problem with doing so is that only accumulated mutations and total shared drift between South & W Asians and Steppe populations since Out-of-Africa (OOA) is addressed. Since Steppe-MLBA is more West Eurasian than Steppe-IA, these types of analyses will be in favor of Steppe-MLBA, not necessarily because of greater geneflow to South and West Asians, but rather because they are substantially more derived from the same ancestral populations that contributed to South and West Asians, ie Iran-N/CHG/Antatolia-N related.
The proper question we should seek to answer with analyses should be ; Are modern South and West Asians differentially more Steppe-IA or Steppe-MLBA shifted POST Saidu_Sharif_IA and post Parkhai_EN.




I will share a couple of snipets, using Saidu_Sharif_IA as a common ancestor for N Indians, and Parkhai_EN as a proxy for a Chalcolithic population potentially ancestral to some S Asians, ie a baseline:

1- Remarkable continuity from the Iron Age Swati ancestors to modern NW Indians, with over 80% of sub-structure attributable to Saidu_Sharif IA in many cases.


2- Surprisingly, In the various S Asians I studied ( Arains, Jatts, Pashtuns, Gujjars, Gujratis, Brahmins, S Indians, etc), there is no evidence of Andronovo or Sintashta geneflow to moderns post BOTH Parkhai_EN and Saidu_Sharif_IA

3- Evidence of Saka and Z-93 Turkmenistan_IA geneflow post BOTH Parkhai_EN and Saidu_Sharif_IA in many cases

4- Steady dilutions of W-Siberian-HG admixture post Saidu_Sharif

5- Increase in Baikal-HG admixture post Saidu Sharif in many cases mediated via Saka, Huns, Mongols and Turkics

6- Increase of AASI in all cases post Parkhai_EN, with a leveling off in NW Indians post Saidu Sharif

7- For NW Indians, highest increase in Baikal-HG related, mediated via Saka Huns and Kipchik related Turkics for Dluffy (since he is mentioned in this thread) and some Pashtuns* followed by most Jatts.


See upcoming article for details and graphs. BTW, there is a section that addresses W Asians and one that addresses S Asians...


Edit: * forgot to mention Pashtuns.

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 03:57 PM
I will share a couple of snipets, using Saidu_Sharif_IA as a common ancestor for N Indians, and Parkhai_EN as a proxy for a Chalcolithic population potentially ancestral to some S Asians, ie a baseline:



Hi Kurd,

Pardon my dumb question, this Saidu_Sharif_IA is this a person who tested or is it a group of samples you are referring to?

Kurd
06-17-2018, 04:11 PM
Hi Kurd,

Pardon my dumb question, this Saidu_Sharif_IA is this a person who tested or is it a group of samples you are referring to?

They are a group of about 20 decent coverage Iron Age genomes sequenced pursuant to the Narasimhan et al, 2018 study, who in PCA cluster with modern S Asians.


I would like to also clarify the following:


With regards to (2) above, many papers seek to address steppe ancestry in South and West Asia via outgroup f3s and f4s, and via IBS. The problem with doing so is that only accumulated mutations and total shared drift between South & W Asians and Steppe populations since Out-of-Africa (OOA) is addressed. Since Steppe-MLBA is more West Eurasian than Steppe-IA, these types of analyses will be in favor of Steppe-MLBA, not necessarily because of greater geneflow to South and West Asians, but rather because they are substantially more derived from the same ancestral populations that contributed to South and West Asians, ie Iran-N/CHG/Antatolia-N related.
The proper question we should seek to answer with analyses should be ; Are modern South and West Asians differentially more Steppe-IA or Steppe-MLBA shifted POST Saidu_Sharif_IA and post Parkhai_EN.



What I mean here is that shared drift calculations should be post Saidu_Sharif_IA and Parkhai_EN, and not post divergence of Eurasians from Africans, because those results can mislead because they will include shared drift due to very ancient ancestry.

This of course doesn't apply to QpAdm because in this case qpAdm checks to see whether the Test population can be modeled as a mixture of Zagrosian-Chl (for W Asians) or Central Asian farmer or Saidu-Sharif-IA (for S Asians) with a steppe population such as Steppe-MLBA, Iron Age Saka or similar using various outgroups. The qpAdm methodology also provides a formal test of whether the model of the Test population as a mixture of 2 or 3 source streams that are clades with West Eurasians and East Eurasians, is a fit to the data, with all outgroups which are phylogenetically more distant.

Saad2016
06-17-2018, 04:55 PM
to those who are wondering where is saidu shareef , its is in Pakistan SWAT/Mingora

https://i.gyazo.com/50b8e7589054ac863aaf19a805c0d600.png

bmoney
06-18-2018, 12:49 AM
They are a group of about 20 decent coverage Iron Age genomes sequenced pursuant to the Narasimhan et al, 2018 study, who in PCA cluster with modern S Asians.


I would like to also clarify the following:




What I mean here is that shared drift calculations should be post Saidu_Sharif_IA and Parkhai_EN, and not post divergence of Eurasians from Africans, because those results can mislead because they will include shared drift due to very ancient ancestry.

This of course doesn't apply to QpAdm because in this case qpAdm checks to see whether the Test population can be modeled as a mixture of Zagrosian-Chl (for W Asians) or Central Asian farmer or Saidu-Sharif-IA (for S Asians) with a steppe population such as Steppe-MLBA, Iron Age Saka or similar using various outgroups. The qpAdm methodology also provides a formal test of whether the model of the Test population as a mixture of 2 or 3 source streams that are clades with West Eurasians and East Eurasians, is a fit to the data, with all outgroups which are phylogenetically more distant.

Kurd, to your point if you could estimate the CHG/Iran N ancient shared drift proportion of the Swat Indo-Aryans (South Asian Iran_N+ AASI), the CHG/Iran N they picked up on the way to South Asia (ie more recent BMAC related perhaps) and the Steppe MLBA Pontic-Caspian proportion that would be great (EHG, WHG + Yamnaya CHG).

I want to know how autosomally Pontic-Caspian the Swat Indo-Aryans were and whether this Pontic-Caspian % increased or decreased over time