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TigerMW
10-15-2013, 09:36 PM
I've looked for all of the M269+ L23- folks I could find in the DNA projects.

M269* is a bit of a challenge. I would like to see more people do deeper testing but I was able to pull together a number of haplotypes.

At least among our DNA projects, there is a heavy Jewish project focus along with Italy and folks from the Near East.

I think almost all of M269*, as we know it, or at least as I've found it, is a single subclade that is no older than P312. That's what the 67 marker comparisons would tell you, regardless of geography. I should just say it is probably about the same age.

alan
10-15-2013, 11:51 PM
I suppose the main interest in it is that it shows an M269 line that didnt derive from L23. That is still interesting in itself even if the modern clade is not old. By definition it has branched off the future L23 line after M269 and before L23 which according to some calculations would place its branching off between 4000 and 3500BC. If its variance is only c. 2500BC. It clearly has a long hidden history perhaps some 1000-1500 years long which has not been preserved in the modern variance presumably because they are all descended from a more recent common ancestor on that line. If it was very localised I would think it was just a case that interclades can fail to identify true age. However if it is widespread but still young then that creates a different picture that indicates the most recent common ancestor and spread itself is young.

I think its is worth thinking this lineage through a little more using the common central dates of SNPs and modern variance. What you have in this clade is evidence that M269 did very little on one line until L23 c. 3500BC and that another branching off at some point c. 4000-3500BC did very little for another 1000-1500 years and struggled to survive judging from the M269* clade variance being similar to P312. So the ancestor of the M269* group shared the lack of expansion with the L23 group but this actually extended for an extra 1000 years.

So, the first conclusion is that M269 itself is not the start of much other than producing the modern M269* line and the L23 lines. Not much happened in the M269 world at all until L23 happened and not much happened on the other M269 line until say 2500BC - bare survival. I think the obvious conclusion is that these were not expansive lines in advanced farming areas. They must have been at the margins of survival and the M269* line seems to have stayed at that stage of bare survival until c. 2500BC. So, context-wise we are really talking about one man c. 2500BC being the ancestor of all M269* today. As with all R1b downstream of P297, we must be looking at margin context.

It is a reasonable assumption that the two M269 lines, future L23 and future modern M269* spend some time in the same zone as they both shared the same barren spell for many centuries. So, although imperfect, I would think this struggling M269 line's position is probably best inferred from the L23xL51 clades. That does give a basic generalised best-guess location in the circum-Pontic/Caspian zone in its first 500 years or so anyway.

What then marks it out as different from L23 is a more protracted period in the doldrums, perhaps an additional 1000 years in that state. That suggests to me that while L23 found more fruitful pastures new, M269 may have remained in the less fruitful original M269 context (be that geographical/cultural/environmental/mode of existence) or a comparable one anyway. It seems to have missed the boat that L23 took somehow. I find the Balkans c. 4000-3000BC as the most likely place L23 found its prosperity. I have outline my reasons before for thinking that Anatolia has a later multiple input history of L23/Balkans groups. I cannot be sure of that but there is some sound reasons for thinking that given the many IE groups who many think spread into Anatolia from the Balkans be it Anatolians, Aremenias, Greeks etc.

Actually finding a story for perhaps just one man c. 2500BC (lets say 3000-2000BC) who somehow missed out on the expansion that L23 was able to do is virtually impossible. If I had to guess I would suggest a Balkans or Caucasus entry into Anatolia (there is some M269* in the Balkans and Armenia) in a non-elite context c. 3000-2000BC. The most obvious cultural network linking areas like the Caucasus and Anatolia to the Levant etc in that timeframe was Kura-Araxes. However, I think that culture has links to V88 and the very distant M269xL23 man would likely have been an outsider from a neighbouring culture, perhaps Maykop or from the Balkan-Anatolian IE groups. I doubt we are talking about a poweful high status lineage given its rarity.

Even leaving aside the archaeological side of things, M269* is known in Ararat Armenians. One could look at this geographically and say that could trace it back to a previous home or stepping stone in the Caucasus, Or one could look at the Armenians as an ethnic group and suggest a possible link with the Balkans where some M269* is also known. Either way, the Kura-Araxes culture linked from NW Iran through the south Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and down the Levant so its very good scenario for a small M269 line to end up scattered around.

I've looked for all of the M269+ L23- folks I could find in the DNA projects.

M269* is a bit of a challenge. I would like to see more people do deeper testing but I was able to pull together a number of haplotypes.

At least among our DNA projects, there is a heavy Jewish project focus along with Italy and folks from the Near East.

I think almost all of M269*, as we know it, or at least as I've found it, is a single subclade that is no older than P312. That's what the 67 marker comparisons would tell you, regardless of geography. I should just say it is probably about the same age.

lgmayka
10-16-2013, 01:19 AM
I wonder whether kit 277815 is M269+ L23- . He has 11 at DYS426, and 5 at DYS450.


277815 Dimitry Laban, 1822 - 1898 Ukraine R1b1a2
12 24 14 11 11-14 11 12 13 13 13 29
16 9-11 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-17-17
10 10 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12
11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10
12 22-23 16 10 12 12 15 5 13 22 20 13
12 11 15 11 11 12 12

TigerMW
10-16-2013, 02:51 AM
I wonder whether kit 277815 is M269+ L23- . He has 11 at DYS426, and 5 at DYS450.


277815 Dimitry Laban, 1822 - 1898 Ukraine R1b1a2


I found him in the Russian project so I copied him in. I'm pretty sure he is M269+ L23- but he's kind of an outlier. I wouldn't make too much of the 450=5 even though that is slow. It looks like a single mutation event with a jump in the allele.

Rathna
10-16-2013, 03:35 AM
I found him in the Russian project so I copied him in. I'm pretty sure he is M269+ L23- but he's kind of an outlier. I wouldn't make too much of the 450=5 even though that is slow. It looks like a single mutation event with a jump in the allele.
I completely agree with Mikewww. This is a R-M269 in line with all the others, apart this multistep mutation. I'd be curious about his origin, because Laban (white in Hebrew) could be of Jewish origin and this could be interesting.

Rathna
10-16-2013, 04:07 AM
I completely agree with Mikewww. This is a R-M269 in line with all the others, apart this multistep mutation. I'd be curious about his origin, because Laban (white in Hebrew) could be of Jewish origin and this could be interesting.

That this recent line of R-M269* Alan spoke about could be Jewish in its origin should be taken in consideration. Till there was the only cluster of the Ht35 FTDNA Project clearly it was an introgression, but now this Laban, the Russian Guralsky, a Lebanese (Jlelati) I found on SMGF and put on ysearch with YCAII=17-23, this guy posted recently by Humanist, those Italians above all from Calabria (but Ferrero came from Piemonte, but also Prowting/Micieli probably was named Ferrero (Smith)), this Haddad (Smith) labelled R-M269 but with the markers values of R-V88+, the same Tuscan Mangino/Mancini etc.
But LoPIccolo (from Sicily) and Filandro are autosomally pretty 100% Italian like me (from Tuscany)...
I think I'll use this offer of Geno 2.0 at 149$ to test my acquired cousin, Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany, Pisa province, an R-M269 I tested with SMGF. Finally we'll have another R-M269 to test for these three Sardinian SNPs.

Rathna
10-16-2013, 05:33 AM
And if this haplogroup were linked to the diffusion of the Iron technology after the fall of the Hittite Empire?

alan
10-16-2013, 12:04 PM
There are so many possible scenarios for a lineage descending from on guy c. 3000-2000BC. I agree the possibly link with metal working is very tempting. However, I would be tempted to link this with the taking over of the copper metallurgical routes from the south Caucasus/NW Iran through east Anatolia and down the Levant that we see in the Kura-Araxes culture. They had a big role in the copper networks of those areas from 3500-2000BC. I think they were mostly V88 but M269* was also nearby in the Caucasus and the Balkans. The area of Maykop and the Kura-Araxes areas overlapped around NW Iran c. 3000BC when the latter took over dominance of that area from the former. A Balkans route is also possible as there is some M269* there and many see the Armenians, Hittites etc as deriving from there. Whatever, it was was a minor line that seems to have only taken off very late and got incorporated into Jewish populations.



And if this haplogroup were linked to the diffusion of the Iron technology after the fall of the Hittite Empire?

AJL
10-16-2013, 03:32 PM
it was was a minor line that seems to have only taken off very late and got incorporated into Jewish populations.

You should be aware that while there is considerable haplogroup diversity in Jewish populations there is similarly low haplotype/STR diversity in all these because of both founder effect and bottleneck. Unless you have a second relatively stable cluster to compare a Jewish STR cluster to, it is very hard to determine with any authority when the haplogroup was incorporated into the population -- it is fallacious to assume that date of incorporation is the same as TMRCA.

ADW_1981
10-16-2013, 05:44 PM
That this recent line of R-M269* Alan spoke about could be Jewish in its origin should be taken in consideration. Till there was the only cluster of the Ht35 FTDNA Project clearly it was an introgression, but now this Laban, the Russian Guralsky, a Lebanese (Jlelati) I found on SMGF and put on ysearch with YCAII=17-23, this guy posted recently by Humanist, those Italians above all from Calabria (but Ferrero came from Piemonte, but also Prowting/Micieli probably was named Ferrero (Smith)), this Haddad (Smith) labelled R-M269 but with the markers values of R-V88+, the same Tuscan Mangino/Mancini etc.
But LoPIccolo (from Sicily) and Filandro are autosomally pretty 100% Italian like me (from Tuscany)...
I think I'll use this offer of Geno 2.0 at 149$ to test my acquired cousin, Fabrizio Federighi from Tuscany, Pisa province, an R-M269 I tested with SMGF. Finally we'll have another R-M269 to test for these three Sardinian SNPs.

LoPiccolo appears 99.8% Italian because he was used as a reference sample, no other reason.

TigerMW
10-18-2013, 07:14 PM
You should be aware that while there is considerable haplogroup diversity in Jewish populations there is similarly low haplotype/STR diversity in all these because of both founder effect and bottleneck. Unless you have a second relatively stable cluster to compare a Jewish STR cluster to, it is very hard to determine with any authority when the haplogroup was incorporated into the population -- it is fallacious to assume that date of incorporation is the same as TMRCA.

I absolutely agree. That's why I used an airplane trip or two to try to subgroup M269* to a much deeper granularity.

If you have access to my R1b Early Subclades spreadsheet, you might want to take a look at it. It a while, but I've tried assign deep ancestral STR based varieties within SNP defined subclades and paragroups. You can use OpenOffice.org freeware to open and look at the spreadsheet, although some of the niceties don't work unless you Excel 2010. There is an accompanying thread within this category dedicated to the spreadsheet. The good news is it is not nearly as big as my L21, P312xL21 and U106 spreadsheets. Of course, that's the bad news too.

Below are the varieties I've assigned for M269*.

One variety that you should be cautious of is:
M269+ mm- uas

These mm- uas people haven't been tested for L23 and many of them are probably L23+. They need to do further testing. The "uas" stands for unassigned. "m" is for M343 and the 2nd "m" is for M269. The coding may seem strange but it really helps in sorting, when you sort by variety. The STR patterns become very clear in most cases. In the spreadsheet, I accepted FTDNA's prediction of "R1b1a2" as legitimate M269+ confirmation. I think that is fairly safe.

The known M269* (L23-) varieties all begin with "mm-a" with the "a" meaning asterisk.

Almost all of the M269* people have 426=11, which is an exceptionally slow marker.

mm-a42611-A and its subgroupings seem to have people in the Jewish projects and from Eastern Europe although there is a person listed from Kazakhstan(Myzev).

mm-a42611-B and its subgroupings seem to be Italian dominated but there is someone from Turkey in it.

mm-a42611-C and its subgroupings seem to be a mix of SW Asia - Armenian, Syria and Russian.

mm-a42611-D has a Russian and an Italian.

mm-a42611-E has people from the England and one from Spain.

mm-a42611-150 have the L150.1+ "advanced" marker so it is not for sure they are all related. There are folks from Jewish projects, Eastern Europe (inc. Bulgaria), a Greek and an Irishman. That would be something if R1b-L150.1* was the truest brother to L23!

mm-a42611 or unassigned contains many people from the SW Asia with a scattering from places like the Arabian Peninsula, Algeria, France, Italy, Eastern Europe, Bulgaria, the Balkans, the UK, Germany. I wouldn't make to much of being unassigned, particularly since many haplotypes are limited.

However, there are two proven M269* that are 426=12
f66862 Davids
f46835 Mangino

They are also 393=13 which isn't rare for M269* but is not modal, which is 393=12. They are not closely related with a GD=38 at 67 from each other so they are paragroup guys.

Can anyone make sense out of all of the above?

Here is the standard caveat. STRs are subject to vagaries so the M269* subgroupings are speculative.

TigerMW
10-18-2013, 07:27 PM
The premise of this question is that studies show high frequencies (relatively that is) of M269* in the Balkan, Lower Danube areas.

Do we think it is likely that people from there during the early/pre-Bronze Age would have moved northeast and east into places like Kazakhstan?

Do we think it is likely that people from there (Balkans/Lower Danube) would have crossed the Bosporous east into Anatolia and then on around to the east of the Caspian Sea during the early/pre/or mid-Bronze Age?

Essentially, I'm asking how did we get some of these guys over in the historical period Turkic speaking areas? M73 is more dominant, R1b-wise, over there, but some of these guys show up too.

Rathna
10-19-2013, 06:57 AM
However, there are two proven M269* that are 426=12
f66862 Davids
f46835 Mangino


Also this sample had been tested R-M269, but, after a letter of mine, has been put in the R-V88+ in the "R1b1 FTDNA Project":
M8800 blalb Libyan Arab Jamahiriya R1b1a2
13 25 15 10 13-15 12 12 12 14 13 32 18 9-10 11 12 27 14 19 29 12-12-15-15 12 11 21-23 15 16 17 17 33-37 13 12 12 8 15-16 8 11 11 9 10 11 12 21-22 16 11 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 14
I have spoken of many similar cases. About Mangino I am writing from many years. It seems that next he will be tested by Geno 2.0, with a contribution of mine of 50$.

Rathna
10-19-2013, 07:21 AM
About Davids I wrote to you this:

f66862 HTVE9 Davids, having DYS426=13, should be R-L51+ if a SNP test doesn’t demonstrate otherwise.
[Title: Re: R-M269xL23, L23xL11 and L11* / ht35 (R1b1a2 except R-P312 and R-U106)
Post by: Maliclavelli on October 18, 2011, 03:20:04 PM]

P.S. By watching at his data on Ysearch, for having DYS464d=18 and DYS446=14, I'd say for sure that he is R-L51*.

alan
10-19-2013, 02:29 PM
I totally agree. All it gives is a terminus ante-quem date. The real date for incorporation lies somewhere between the MRCA and the date of M269 itself.

Is there a separate variance date for only Jewish M269* compared to all M269*? I realise the pitfalls in this but it would still be interesting if for example Jewish M269* is as old as all M269*. It would give us at least a terminus ante quem date for incorportation. I am curious as to the detail of the Jewish groups involved too and whether this indicates incorporation in the Levant or somewhere else.


You should be aware that while there is considerable haplogroup diversity in Jewish populations there is similarly low haplotype/STR diversity in all these because of both founder effect and bottleneck. Unless you have a second relatively stable cluster to compare a Jewish STR cluster to, it is very hard to determine with any authority when the haplogroup was incorporated into the population -- it is fallacious to assume that date of incorporation is the same as TMRCA.

TigerMW
10-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Also this sample had been tested R-M269, but, after a letter of mine, has been put in the R-V88+ in the "R1b1 FTDNA Project":
M8800 blalb Libyan Arab Jamahiriya R1b1a2
13 25 15 10 13-15 12 12 12 14 13 32 18 9-10 11 12 27 14 19 29 12-12-15-15 12 11 21-23 15 16 17 17 33-37 13 12 12 8 15-16 8 11 11 9 10 11 12 21-22 16 11 12 12 16 8 12 22 21 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 14
I have spoken of many similar cases. About Mangino I am writing from many years. It seems that next he will be tested by Geno 2.0, with a contribution of mine of 50$.

Thank you, Rathna. He is a good catch. I have Blalb in the spreadsheet. There is no need to copy/paste long STR ht info into these forum postings. I don't have the mind to absorb what the implications are without having them in a spreadsheet with GD calculations, sorting and the like. (yikes! I see I forgot to adjust the sorting on my uploaded version... will fix later today)

As you said, he hasn't tested downstream so we don't know what he is.... but you are right. His M269+ status looks like an error. His combination of 385=13,15 464=12,12,15,15 YCAII=21,23 446=12 is very, very much V88ish. [[ xxxx EDIT out]]

I was going to change the M269+ to M269? in the spreadsheet and put Blalb in the V88 varieties. However, I see Haddad has very low 464 values and a strange 385=12,12.

fM8800 Blalb - Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
f298933 Haddad - Lebanon

FTDNA has both as M269+ but that's all the testing that's been done. We probably should do something to make sure these guys get further testing.

alan
10-19-2013, 03:20 PM
Its pretty mind boggling but the zone does remind me vaguely of the L23xL52 zone with the Balkans, eastern Europe, SW Asia, Armenians etc and Italy the highest within western Europe. There is a hint again of that circumpontic pattern. To me, in the lists you provide, at a guess, the Balkans sort of area jumps out as repeatedly coming up. Again, it all depends on age. If this is widely scattered but yet only has an age like P312 then its most tempting to think that the scattering commenced at that sort of time. I think that is rational. It would not be a safe deduction if it was geographically or ethnically concentrate but as its so scattered dating its scattering to somewhere around the variance dating seems reasonable.

If we give a generous time slot from the SNP itself to the variance date it would be something like 4000-2000BC we would be looking at. In that period I think the key is to look at connections between the Balkans and Anatolua/SW Asia.

Essnetially I see the picture as connection possibly moving from Anatolia to the Balkans in the pre-5000BC date ranger.
Unless the date is over 1000 years older, then the Anatolian-Balkans links of the Neolithic demonstrated in the maps in the link below could not be used as explanations

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/balkans-map/index.htm

Once we get towards 4300BC and later then most of the evidence of traffic between these two area in the late copper, Bronze and Iron ages moves in the opposite direction. So, if M269* dates between the SNP and the variance date bookends c. 4000-2500BC then it would look much more likely to have moved INTO Anatolia from the Balkans. All of the IE Groups - Luwians, Lydians, Hittites, Phrgyians, Armenians etc are trace back to the Balkans by a majority of academics these days. This of course again backs a Balkans to Anatolia/SW Asia picture. In IE groupings, the present or historically IE speaking M269* people are in the Balkans and Armenia which also seems to confirm this link. Some believe in a linguistic Balkans block consisting of Armenians, Greeks, Phyrgians and Albanians. The Kurgan theory pretty well demands that Armenians came from the Balkans. I have posted before that they are an exception to the general rule of L23xL51 being much higher on the north than south Caucasus and to me this fits best a Balkans male elite origin.

So, on balance I think the Balkans, probably originally the east Balkans, may be the origin or perhaps a very important stepping stone for M269* before reaching SW Asia via Anatolia. However, I also believe that a lot in the structure, branching and variance of P297 clades points to an ultimate origin on the steppe of either M269 itself or its immediate P297* ancestor. Otherwise its very hard to explain how the two P297 clades that arose c. 5000-3500BC are Balkans and Ural/eastwards distributed. What lies in between the M73 concentration in the east and the M269/L23xL52 concentration in the Balkans - the western steppes. What was going on c. 5000-3500BC that would link those areas? Pretty well the only thing is the steppe cultural groups.


I absolutely agree. That's why I used an airplane trip or two to try to subgroup M269* to a much deeper granularity.

If you have access to my R1b Early Subclades spreadsheet, you might want to take a look at it. It a while, but I've tried assign deep ancestral STR based varieties within SNP defined subclades and paragroups. You can use OpenOffice.org freeware to open and look at the spreadsheet, although some of the niceties don't work unless you Excel 2010. There is an accompanying thread within this category dedicated to the spreadsheet. The good news is it is not nearly as big as my L21, P312xL21 and U106 spreadsheets. Of course, that's the bad news too.

Below are the varieties I've assigned for M269*.

One variety that you should be cautious of is:
M269+ mm- uas

These mm- uas people haven't been tested for L23 and many of them are probably L23+. They need to do further testing. The "uas" stands for unassigned. "m" is for M343 and the 2nd "m" is for M269. The coding may seem strange but it really helps in sorting, when you sort by variety. The STR patterns become very clear in most cases. In the spreadsheet, I accepted FTDNA's prediction of "R1b1a2" as legitimate M269+ confirmation. I think that is fairly safe.

The known M269* (L23-) varieties all begin with "mm-a" with the "a" meaning asterisk.

Almost all of the M269* people have 426=11, which is an exceptionally slow marker.

mm-a42611-A and its subgroupings seem to have people in the Jewish projects and from Eastern Europe although there is a person listed from Kazakhstan(Myzev).

mm-a42611-B and its subgroupings seem to be Italian dominated but there is someone from Turkey in it.

mm-a42611-C and its subgroupings seem to be a mix of SW Asia - Armenian, Syria and Russian.

mm-a42611-D has a Russian and an Italian.

mm-a42611-E has people from the England and one from Spain.

mm-a42611-150 have the L150.1+ "advanced" marker so it is not for sure they are all related. There are folks from Jewish projects, Eastern Europe (inc. Bulgaria), a Greek and an Irishman. That would be something if R1b-L150.1* was the truest brother to L23!

mm-a42611 or unassigned contains many people from the SW Asia with a scattering from places like the Arabian Peninsula, Algeria, France, Italy, Eastern Europe, Bulgaria, the Balkans, the UK, Germany. I wouldn't make to much of being unassigned, particularly since many haplotypes are limited.

However, there are two proven M269* that are 426=12
f66862 Davids
f46835 Mangino

They are also 393=13 which isn't rare for M269* but is not modal, which is 393=12. They are not closely related with a GD=38 at 67 from each other so they are paragroup guys.

Can anyone make sense out of all of the above?

Here is the standard caveat. STRs are subject to vagaries so the M269* subgroupings are speculative.

TigerMW
10-19-2013, 03:32 PM
I totally agree. All it gives is a terminus ante-quem date. The real date for incorporation lies somewhere between the MRCA and the date of M269 itself.

Is there a separate variance date for only Jewish M269* compared to all M269*? I realise the pitfalls in this but it would still be interesting if for example Jewish M269* is as old as all M269*. It would give us at least a terminus ante quem date for incorportation. I am curious as to the detail of the Jewish groups involved too and whether this indicates incorporation in the Levant or somewhere else.

First a footnote/caveat. I don't make assumptions or assignments based on what I think a person's ethnic or religious background might be. I'm just going on what they say or denote by their MDKA origin and/or project membership. In other words, I'm not recording anybody as "Jewish", but rather as in a "Jewish project". Likewise you'll see "Turkic" in the MKDA origin columns. That means membership in the TurkicWorld (speaking) project. A person could be from Turkey but not marked as "Turkic", for example.

You probably need to go into the spreadsheet and look for yourself. There are not that many M269* people with long haplotypes. I highly suspect that our DNA project long haplotype M269* information is heavily biased.. towards Jewish project members.

I'm not sure that variance by various STR based varieties is that useful. We don't really know where the edges of the potential underlying subclades fit. That being said, with perhaps just Davids and Mangino being the exceptions, all of M269* (that we know of) looks like it own subclade that is a brother to L23, but has passed through bottlenecks such that the remnant's MRCA is younger than the L23 remnant's MRCA. In fact, the M269* 426=11 remnant is no older than P312, probably.

I think the usefulness of the limited M269* data we have is looking at outliers or geographically associated configurations... not too much to do with statistical analysis.

TigerMW
10-19-2013, 05:13 PM
...
I think the usefulness of the limited M269* data we have is looking at outliers or geographically associated configurations... not too much to do with statistical analysis.

This all could just be a sign showing the separation in ages between M269 and L23, with the M269* 426=11 guys just being a late expanding remnant.

Back to Alan's questions on aging, think of it like this. M269* 426=11 has a coalescence comparable with P312. L23 has an older coalescence. However, there may be outliers of M269* that are NOT mutational oddities (multi-increments jumps, massive segment mutation, etc.). They could very easily be just twigs left on a very long branch that broke off early.

My supposition is that we should think of M269* 426=11 as its own subclade to be evaluated separately from the rest of the M269* paragroup.

Important outliers of M269* might be the following three as they all have very low 464 values.

fM8800 Blalb M269+ Libyan Arab Jamahiriya
f298933 Haddad M269+ Lebanon
f46835 Mangino M269+ L23- Italy

For sure, the first two need to test for L23 or get Geno 2 or something like that. Blalb needs to be rechecked at M269 in some manner.

Fortunately, Blalb and Mangino have 67 STRs so I can tell you their GD's to the M269* 426=11 modal are 39 and 34 at 67. Of the slowest 27 markers, Blab is off by a GD=11 where Mangino is a more normal GD=5.

Another important outlier might be
f66862 Davids M269+ L23- New York

He is 426=12. There is a chance that is a back-mutation from 426=11, though, or just a slightly earlier branch off. At 67 his GD to the M269* 426=11 modal is 19 and for the slowest 27, GD=2. He could very well be of this subclade as those GD's fit just fine in the M269* 426=11 coalescence.

Rathna, you'll be happy to know I'm looking at those YCAIIa=17 and 18 folks, too. I know I've told you "one does not a trend make" and I think that is always the case, but given the low coalescence for M269* 426=11, all we have to look at is outliers and their geographies and ethnicities, etc..... so my hat is off to you because I know you've studied that for a long time. Now, that doesn't mean I think one thing or another about the geographic origins although Italy is certainly a beautiful place.

As far as other potential outliers that need more testing but appear to be M269+ L23- and are 426=12, I've got what I can find in the spreadsheet listed under mm- uas. There are onesie-twosies scattered to places like the Channel Islands, Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Greece, etc., but the old Soviet Union and the Arabian Peninsula seem to have more then their fair share.

AJL
10-19-2013, 10:14 PM
alan I am afraid I am not by any means an authority on early R1b -- I just have a passing interest because I have both Near Eastern L584 and West European L11-and-beyond ancestors. Some of the people I would like to see comment on this are Mike Maddi and Vince Vizachero. But I think Mikewww is doing solid analysis here.

A real problem is that haplogroups are expanding, numerous SNPs are cropping up and being challenged and updated, more results are coming in, and some of the key DNA people have either been sidelined (e.g. Krahn) or are potentially getting burnt out from volunteer overwork. It is also unfortunate that FTDNA has made it very difficult to separate or add projects over the past few years, so we are largely stuck with project structures from 2008 or so.

I second Mike's suggestion not to take project membership literally as many projects don't screen, or accept everyone. In the case of M269*, I think what exactly you mean by "the Balkans" is an important question. I can see M269 coming from Anatolia or nearby, but I can't see it originating in Slovenia. One possible link could be the hypothesized Black Sea flooding about 7500 ybp.

alan
10-19-2013, 11:59 PM
Well going back to geography if nothing else it does point to eastern Europe and SW Asia. Also, Italy seems to be the main west European representation in western Europe. So, it does have a very broad similarity with L23xL51 in that sense. I dont think its easy to understand an origin point or archaeological identity for this clade. Its thin spread makes me doubt it was elite driven which makes that even more difficult to speculate on. All I would speculate is that there is a period in the Neolithic and early copper age where Anatolia and the Balkans are well connected, probably initially Anatolia to the Balkans but perhaps two way later, but there are also periods of disconnection such as after the fall of old Europe c. 4000BC. The date of c. 2500BC does not favour an Anatolia to Europe movement though. Traffic seems to go the other way mainly c. 3000BC onwards, a pattern that continues into the periods of recorded early history of peoples. So, if I had to guess I would say that if the main M269* clade converges around c. 2500BC it seems far more likely to relate to a Balkans to Anatolia movement than the reverse.

I also think the fact that M269* appears to have a period of bare survival between the SNP and the clade coalescence date. That surely tells us something about the context of the ancestors of the surviving M269* clade. We are clearly not looking at some sort of successful booming context or some major powerful lineage. Its also fair to say that M269 in general did not seem to do much prior to L23 anywhere and was also apparently having a bare survival sort of experience. You could argue that M269* actually retained the bare survival existence experienced by P297 in general from 9000-3500BC and actually continued this traditional pattern longer than L23 did. You could argue that L23 and M73 are actually aberrations in the the norm of P297 history which was otherwise one of bare existence and presumably also frequent extinctions. In that sense the modern M269* simply is more 'business as usual' in its poor performance prior to 2500BC. Its L23 that somehow spawned several expansive lineages.

I wonder if M269* simply originated as a much less powerful fellow travellor with L23.

I think the best we can hope for is some patterns to emerge in population studies.

In Iran its low except for 15% among Zoroastrians

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9ItFg3ZDOCc/UAfrJKKY7aI/AAAAAAAAFC8/WQfxUO6_9Vw/s1600/journal.pone.0041252.t001.jpg


Its low in Bulgaria and the only area where it is above noise is in the Bulgarian Sophia city. Its telling that its much higher in Sofia city than Sofia provence, kind of suggestive of non-local origin to me.

The recent Moldova and caucasus studies didnt test for L23 which makes it useless for our purposes

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0053731#pone-0053731-t002

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2011/09/02/msr221.DC1/msr221supp_tables_corr.pdf

Are there any other individual population studies that allowed M269xL23 statistics to be deduced?

Myres et al noted a west Balkans peak

Wiki drawing on Myres states

M269(xL23) is found at highest frequency in the central Balkans notably Kosovo with 7.9%, Macedonia 5.1% and Serbia 4.4%.[6] Kosovo is notable in also having a high percentage of descendant L23* or L23(xM412) at 11.4% unlike most other areas with significant percentages of M269* and L23* except for Poland with 2.4% and 9.5% and the Bashkirs of southeast Bashkortostan with 2.4% and 32.2% respectively.[6] Notably this Bashkir population also has a high percentage of M269 sister branch M73 at 23.4%.[6] Five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley, Armenia belonged to R1b1a2* and 36 to L23*, with none belonging to subclades of L23.[29]


An old post by Mike on WF gave this summary of Myres

Here is an extract of the Myres frequency data of R1b-M269xL23 versus the total population sampled, at least as I understand it.

Kosovo___________________________ 7.9%
Germany__________________________ 5.3%
Macedonia________________________ 5.1%
Serbia___________________________ 4.4%
Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus)______ 3.2%
Switzerland Northeast____________ 3.1%
Italy____________________________ 2.9%
Iran_____________________________ 2.7%
Romanians________________________ 2.7%
Bashkirs South-Bashkortostan_____ 2.5%
Bashkirs Southeast-Bashkortostan_ 2.4%
Poland___________________________ 2.4%
Tabasarans-Northeast Caucasus____ 2.3%
Turkey-Cappadocia________________ 2.2%
Crete____________________________ 2.1%
Switzerland-Lower Rhone__________ 2.0%
Turkey___________________________ 1.9%
Herzegovina______________________ 1.4%
Bosnia___________________________ 1.3%
Greece___________________________ 1.2%
Germany South____________________ 1.1%
Slovenia_________________________ 1.0%
Germany West_____________________ 1.0%
Hungary__________________________ 0.9%
Italy North______________________ 0.8%
Italy South______________________ 0.8%
Russians Northern Russia_________ 0.8%
Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea_________ 0.7%
Ukraine West_____________________ 0.6%

I
Germany's relatively high frequency tends to be forgotten. I assume from the much lower quoted figs for south and west Germany that this must relate to east or north Germany having a major peak. Other than Germany, I must say overall I find a connection to the most consolidated block of this clade in the west Balkans and possibly Balkans-derived Armenians and the possibility of a Balkans grouping of IE that included Armenian as about as close to solid ground as there is in the murky world of M269* The clade if its from a common ancestor within a few centuries of 2500BC falls into a period where it would best fit a dispersal with one or more of the several Balkans IE groups that are thought to have spread into Anatolia and beyond.

alan
10-20-2013, 12:28 AM
I think one observation worth making is that the bulk of the top frequencies reported fall into an east-central or eastern European (in a cold war sense) and Caucasus sort of environment. It doesnt feel like a Med. thing on the whole or seaborne sort of clade. One has to suspect that as with L23xL51, that Italy's proximity to the west Balkans is a factor in its frequency.

Kosovo___________________________ 7.9%
Germany__________________________ 5.3%
Macedonia________________________ 5.1%
Serbia___________________________ 4.4%
Armenia???
Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus)______ 3.2%
Switzerland Northeast____________ 3.1%
Italy____________________________ 2.9%
Iran_____________________________ 2.7%
Romanians________________________ 2.7%
Bashkirs South-Bashkortostan_____ 2.5%
Bashkirs Southeast-Bashkortostan_ 2.4%
Poland___________________________ 2.4%
Tabasarans-Northeast Caucasus____ 2.3%

AJL
10-20-2013, 12:42 AM
Its low in Bulgaria and the only area where it is above noise is in the Bulgarian Sophia city. Its telling that its much higher in Sofia city than Sofia provence, kind of suggestive of non-local origin to me.

With a possible Romany cluster identified, and Romany constituting 5% of Bulgaria's population, one also has to wonder how well the Bulgarian samples were screened for ethnic minorities.

Joe B
10-20-2013, 01:56 AM
Here is an extract of the Myres frequency data of R1b-M269xL23 versus the total population sampled, at least as I understand it.

Kosovo___________________________ 7.9%
Germany__________________________ 5.3%
Macedonia________________________ 5.1%
Serbia___________________________ 4.4%
Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus)______ 3.2%
Switzerland Northeast____________ 3.1%
Italy____________________________ 2.9%
Iran_____________________________ 2.7%
Romanians________________________ 2.7%
Bashkirs South-Bashkortostan_____ 2.5%
Bashkirs Southeast-Bashkortostan_ 2.4%
Poland___________________________ 2.4%
Tabasarans-Northeast Caucasus____ 2.3%
Turkey-Cappadocia________________ 2.2%
Crete____________________________ 2.1%
Switzerland-Lower Rhone__________ 2.0%
Turkey___________________________ 1.9%
Herzegovina______________________ 1.4%
Bosnia___________________________ 1.3%
Greece___________________________ 1.2%
Germany South____________________ 1.1%
Slovenia_________________________ 1.0%
Germany West_____________________ 1.0%
Hungary__________________________ 0.9%
Italy North______________________ 0.8%
Italy South______________________ 0.8%
Russians Northern Russia_________ 0.8%
Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea_________ 0.7%
Ukraine West_____________________ 0.6%

I
Germany's relatively high frequency tends to be forgotten. I assume from the much lower quoted figs for south and west Germany that this must relate to east or north Germany having a major peak. Other than Germany, I must say overall I find a connection to the most consolidated block of this clade in the west Balkans and possibly Balkans-derived Armenians and the possibility of a Balkans grouping of IE that included Armenian as about as close to solid ground as there is in the murky world of M269* The clade if its from a common ancestor within a few centuries of 2500BC falls into a period where it would best fit a dispersal with one or more of the several Balkans IE groups that are thought to have spread into Anatolia and beyond.
Alan,
A 5.3% for Germany just does not seem right. With the majority of the population in the former West Germany, it would take a high concentration of R1b-M269xL23 in the former East Germany to bring the total for the country up from 1.0% in the west to 5.3% for the whole. The German Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&section=ycolorized)is pretty large. You will find the group you are looking for on page 3. One population you might be interested in is found in the German Jewish Gersig DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GermanJewishGersig/default.aspx) where the R1b-M269xL23 percentages seem to be a little higher.
Sticking with the post war cold war theme, on the other side of the Oder-Niesse line, Upper and Lower Silesia might have higher R1b-M269xL23 percentages. That should be reflected in the Poland numbers.

Joe B
10-20-2013, 03:33 AM
In the case of M269*, I think what exactly you mean by "the Balkans" is an important question. I can see M269 coming from Anatolia or nearby, but I can't see it originating in Slovenia. One possible link could be the hypothesized Black Sea flooding about 7500 ybp.

Noah's Ark ......Just Kidding.
The best timelines I have seen for the Black Sea were published last May by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) (http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases?tid=3622&cid=167969) and it seems to be more of a slow trickle than a flood.
Evolution of the plankton paleome in the Black Sea from the Deglacial to Anthropocene (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1219283110) abstact.

Salinity increased rapidly with the onset of the dry Subboreal climate stage after ca. 5200 years ago leading to an increase in marine fungi and the first occurrence of marine copepods. A gradual succession of phytoplankton such as dinoflagellates, diatoms, and golden algae occurred during refreshening of the Black Sea with the onset of the cool and wet Subatlantic climate around 2500 years ago.

This increase is salinity may have been influenced more by the lack of fresh water river flow into the Black Sea from the Don, Dnieper and Danube Rivers than increased salt water flow from the Sea of Marmara.

I wonder if events like the 5.9 kiloyear and in particular the 4.2 kiloyear event drove some of our early R1b to places that would guarantee fresh water. Water not only for themselves and any agriculture, but also for flora and fuana they might need. In other words, trees and other green things are good to have around.

During the 4.2 kiloyear event, it was dry all over and cold and dry to the north. Civilizations such as the The Akkadian Empire collapsed. Looking down from a goesychronous orbit, areas with transverse mountain ranges with water to the north would be very green on the north slopes with snow on the peaks. This is due to sea or lake effect snow, enhanced by orographic lift. The Pontic mountains of Turkey are a great example of this. Ironically, colder and stronger wind from the north over open water increases precipitation.

I like the out of Anatolia theory for early R1b. However, could the higher str variance seen in Anatolia be due to a refugium from something like the 4.2 kiloyear event?

alan
10-20-2013, 10:50 AM
Anatolia is problematic when it comes to comparison of variance with the Balkans because it has had multiple waves of settlers that many think came from that direction and potentially shared the R1b clades with - Hittites, Luvians etc; Armenians. Phyrgians, Greeks etc. That makes Turkey a place where the variance is certainly going to be inflated because it is clearly cumulative.


Noah's Ark ......Just Kidding.
The best timelines I have seen for the Black Sea were published last May by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) (http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases?tid=3622&cid=167969) and it seems to be more of a slow trickle than a flood.
Evolution of the plankton paleome in the Black Sea from the Deglacial to Anthropocene (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1219283110) abstact.
Salinity increased rapidly with the onset of the dry Subboreal climate stage after ca. 5200 years ago leading to an increase in marine fungi and the first occurrence of marine copepods. A gradual succession of phytoplankton such as dinoflagellates, diatoms, and golden algae occurred during refreshening of the Black Sea with the onset of the cool and wet Subatlantic climate around 2500 years ago.

This increase is salinity may have been influenced more by the lack of fresh water river flow into the Black Sea from the Don, Dnieper and Danube Rivers than increased salt water flow from the Sea of Marmara.

I wonder if events like the 5.9 kiloyear and in particular the 4.2 kiloyear event drove some of our early R1b to places that would guarantee fresh water. Water not only for themselves and any agriculture, but also for flora and fuana they might need. In other words, trees and other green things are good to have around.

During the 4.2 kiloyear event, it was dry all over and cold and dry to the north. Civilizations such as the The Akkadian Empire collapsed. Looking down from a goesychronous orbit, areas with transverse mountain ranges with water to the north would be very green on the north slopes with snow on the peaks. This is due to sea or lake effect snow, enhanced by orographic lift. The Pontic mountains of Turkey are a great example of this. Ironically, colder and stronger wind from the north over open water increases precipitation.

I like the out of Anatolia theory for early R1b. However, could the higher str variance seen in Anatolia be due to a refugium from something like the 4.2 kiloyear event?

alan
10-20-2013, 12:14 PM
Yeah I wondered about that Statistic. Given the huge population of Germany that would translate into couple of million and would surely be by far the biggest concentration of that clade on earth. I notice the stat is not often quoted so maybe a problem was identified at the time.


Alan,
A 5.3% for Germany just does not seem right. With the majority of the population in the former West Germany, it would take a high concentration of R1b-M269xL23 in the former East Germany to bring the total for the country up from 1.0% in the west to 5.3% for the whole. The German Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany&vgroup=germany§ion=ycolorized)is pretty large. You will find the group you are looking for on page 3. One population you might be interested in is found in the German Jewish Gersig DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GermanJewishGersig/default.aspx) where the R1b-M269xL23 percentages seem to be a little higher.
Sticking with the post war cold war theme, on the other side of the Oder-Niesse line, Upper and Lower Silesia might have higher R1b-M269xL23 percentages. That should be reflected in the Poland numbers.

alan
10-20-2013, 12:35 PM
I would have thought leaving Anatolia would be most likely in a drought period. Movement into the nearest uplands may also have happened as there is often more rainfall at altitude and certainly lower temperatures. Also its a natural retreat for when things may have become violent in crisis in the lowlands. That sort of movement could be more subtle than cross continent migrations. It has been noted before that European and SW Asian R1b often, not always, rises in mountanious and also wet Atlantic areas. It normally assumed this is some kind of refuge effect but its possible it could be a preference for mountain and transhumant pastoralism developed in response to events a long period ago. It has sometimes been described as low risk agriculture where there is more limited investment in sophisticated buildings, large settlements etc and a preference for simple houses, semi-mobility, very heavy emphasis on pastoralism, use of the mobile lifestyle for trade, metal working etc. It does suit certain types of conditions. Of course this did become even more easy after horse riding, wheels etc became available. Such a change in strategy has been associated for instance not only with steppe groups but also with the Kura-Araxes expansion.


Noah's Ark ......Just Kidding.
The best timelines I have seen for the Black Sea were published last May by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) (http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases?tid=3622&cid=167969) and it seems to be more of a slow trickle than a flood.
Evolution of the plankton paleome in the Black Sea from the Deglacial to Anthropocene (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1219283110) abstact.
Salinity increased rapidly with the onset of the dry Subboreal climate stage after ca. 5200 years ago leading to an increase in marine fungi and the first occurrence of marine copepods. A gradual succession of phytoplankton such as dinoflagellates, diatoms, and golden algae occurred during refreshening of the Black Sea with the onset of the cool and wet Subatlantic climate around 2500 years ago.

This increase is salinity may have been influenced more by the lack of fresh water river flow into the Black Sea from the Don, Dnieper and Danube Rivers than increased salt water flow from the Sea of Marmara.

I wonder if events like the 5.9 kiloyear and in particular the 4.2 kiloyear event drove some of our early R1b to places that would guarantee fresh water. Water not only for themselves and any agriculture, but also for flora and fuana they might need. In other words, trees and other green things are good to have around.

During the 4.2 kiloyear event, it was dry all over and cold and dry to the north. Civilizations such as the The Akkadian Empire collapsed. Looking down from a goesychronous orbit, areas with transverse mountain ranges with water to the north would be very green on the north slopes with snow on the peaks. This is due to sea or lake effect snow, enhanced by orographic lift. The Pontic mountains of Turkey are a great example of this. Ironically, colder and stronger wind from the north over open water increases precipitation.

I like the out of Anatolia theory for early R1b. However, could the higher str variance seen in Anatolia be due to a refugium from something like the 4.2 kiloyear event?

Rathna
10-20-2013, 12:53 PM
Rathna, you'll be happy to know I'm looking at those YCAIIa=17 and 18 folks, too. I know I've told you "one does not a trend make" and I think that is always the case, but given the low coalescence for M269* 426=11, all we have to look at is outliers and their geographies and ethnicities, etc..... so my hat is off to you because I know you've studied that for a long time. Now, that doesn't mean I think one thing or another about the geographic origins although Italy is certainly a beautiful place.

As far as other potential outliers that need more testing but appear to be M269+ L23- and are 426=12, I've got what I can find in the spreadsheet listed under mm- uas. There are onesie-twosies scattered to places like the Channel Islands, Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Greece, etc., but the old Soviet Union and the Arabian Peninsula seem to have more then their fair share.

@Mikewww
Unfortunately I am not able to see your spreadsheet, anyway I have worked on my data, some of them I have published on Worldfamilies and eng.molgen, seen that you don't like that I publish them here.
It seems to me that, if we take in consideration my haplotypes extracted above all from SMGF, where in the 43 markers tested we have DYS461 and DYS462, we may split them in three cluster:

DYS461=11 DYS462=11
DYS461=11 DYS462=12
DYS461=12 DYS462=11

It is believable that 11-11 is the older haplotype and that 11-12 and 12-11 are derived.

Amongst my data I have in the first cluster
79UHC Filandro Italy
RQ7K2 Rodrigues Soledade Brazil
Z3AV2 Anonymous from Canada

To the second cluster belong all the Jewish R-M269 (whom we know also L150+ PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+) and
MHK97 Federighi, Italy
3M8PU Ehrmann, Germany
6A5HQ Anonymous from Benin
SRPAM Anonymous
X3HFU Zebary Iraq
YUPF6 Anonymous

To the third cluster belong
796ME Donato, Italy (also YCAII=17-23)
G5CCP, Jlelati from Lebanon, one of the YCAII=17-23
TJKDA Ciaschini, Italy

There is also a sample with DYS461=13 (but we don't know his DYS462) and he is
Italian Miceli (36953). It is then believable that YCAII=17-23 (Italian Ferrero=17-22) belong to the 12-11 cluster and that Miceli has had DYS461=13 from 12.


Once more, from these data, it seems to me that Italy is on the center yet. Glad to compare with your data.

Rathna
10-20-2013, 03:13 PM
Another sample from Jewish R1b Project tested M269+, but who seems a V88+ for DYS454=12, DYS447=27, DYS464=12-12-15-15, YCAII=21-23, DYS438=11:

274871 Pinkas Pikholz d.~1826 Ukraine R1b1a2
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 18 9-9 11 12 27 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 19 19 32-39 11 11

274871 Pinkas Pikholz d.~1826 R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+

Joe B
10-20-2013, 10:32 PM
Just got 305168 to join the R1b gateway project. He is awaiting backbone test results and is tested to 67 str.
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 looks like a V88+?
Seems like a reasonable guy that may want to test more with the proper advise.

Rathna
10-21-2013, 03:46 AM
Just got 305168 to join the R1b gateway project. He is awaiting backbone test results and is tested to 67 str.
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 looks like a V88+?
Seems like a reasonable guy that may want to test more with the proper advise.

Not only he is R-V88+, but for sure he is of Ashkenazi origin.
His next values will be the same or very close to these.

13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 18 9-9 11 12 27 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 19 19 32-39 11 11

Joe B
10-21-2013, 04:32 AM
Not only he is R-V88+, but for sure he is of Ashkenazi origin.
His next values will be the same or very close to these.

13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 18 9-9 11 12 27 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 19 19 32-39 11 11
Those numbers are pretty close. He has joined the Jewish DNA Project along with a few geographic ones. Just checked the ftdna forum. Here is his response.
I didn't notice many DYS19=16. Wonder where that will lead.
I do plan on a Geno 2 test in the future, to refine my results.

Looking for good reasoning for Geno2.0. Has it helped to refine the R-V88+ subclade or would a couple of snps do? Keep in mind we are waiting for backbone test results? Would the 111 str upgrade be more worth while considering the backbone test?

TigerMW
10-28-2013, 03:35 AM
...
It seems to me that, if we take in consideration my haplotypes extracted above all from SMGF, where in the 43 markers tested we have DYS461 and DYS462, we may split them in three cluster:

DYS461=11 DYS462=11
DYS461=11 DYS462=12
DYS461=12 DYS462=11

It is believable that 11-11 is the older haplotype and that 11-12 and 12-11 are derived.
....
Unfortunately, FTDNA only has 461 and 462 in the 68-111 markers. I can only see four probable M269xL23 haplotypes that are 111 STRs and none of them have tested for L23 but they do have 426=11. 3 of the 4 hare 461=11 462=12 and the other is 461=12 462=11.

In the R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet I have 40 proven M269+ L23- guys. On top of that there are another 54 that look like matches with them. I end up with a dozen varieties/clusters and 3 people that can't be assigned to any variety.

The two proven M269* that stand alone are:
f66862 Davids R1b-EARLY>P25>L389>P297>M269* M269+ L23- mm-a- uas zzCountry
f46835 Mangino R1b-EARLY>P25>L389>P297>M269* M269+ L23- mm-a- uas Italy

Rathna
10-28-2013, 04:15 AM
The two proven M269* that stand alone are:
f66862 Davids R1b-EARLY>P25>L389>P297>M269* M269+ L23- mm-a- uas zzCountry
f46835 Mangino R1b-EARLY>P25>L389>P297>M269* M269+ L23- mm-a- uas Italy

I have written a lot about Mangino (it seems from Tuscany: Monticiano, Siena, and whose original surname was Mancini) and lastly also about Davids. My suspect is that he (and also Davids, I predicted V88+ if I remember well) are actually R1b1* and not R-M269. That some tested M269+ by FTDNA are unreliable I have demonstrated many times also on this forum.
I offered $50 for testing Mangino. My offer is on the "Italy FTDNA project", whereas Diana has used the other $50 for her very interesting mtDNA K1a2, I have spoken about a lot on eng.molgen.
It seems (ask Richard Rocca) that Mangino is going to test for Geno 2.0 this Christmas.
Joshi, as I have written a lot to him here and in private letters, has resulted L389- and put besides Raza out of the line of the European R1b1*, ancestor of the Western European subclades.

TigerMW
10-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I have written a lot about Mangino (it seems from Tuscany: Monticiano, Siena, and whose original surname was Mancini) and lastly also about Davids. My suspect is that he (and also Davids, I predicted V88+ if I remember well) are actually R1b1* and not R-M269. That some tested M269+ by FTDNA are unreliable I have demonstrated many times also on this forum.
I offered $50 for testing Mangino. My offer is on the "Italy FTDNA project", whereas Diana has used the other $50 for her very interesting mtDNA K1a2, I have spoken about a lot on eng.molgen.
It seems (ask Richard Rocca) that Mangino is going to test for Geno 2.0 this Christmas.
Joshi, as I have written a lot to him here and in private letters, has resulted L389- and put besides Raza out of the line of the European R1b1*, ancestor of the Western European subclades.

I don't know. All I can say is FTDNA has tested them for M269 and FTDNA reports them as M269+.

I totally agree that the Geno 2.0 offering is a great way to go so they can confirm or reject the M269 result and have corroborative evidence in the way of other SNP testing. I'll be anxious to see what happens.

I think it is important to recognize the M269* group that is out there (that we know of) and still survives is most likely its own subclade. It should not be viewed as ancestral to anybody else in M269. Howver, M269 is quite old, so it is possible that there are other remnants that we haven't found yet. We should not expect their STR patterns to be the same as the currently known group.

Joe B
11-01-2013, 02:41 AM
305168 just got his backbone test results. M343 or R1b
Good guy that needs good advise.
What should the next testing phase should be? Looks like they tested M343+, M269- for the backbone and he has 67 strs.
I have only found one R-M343 kit (N16605) that tested with Geno 2.0.
Edit:
Just heard back with some additional information and goals from Jdna.

So is R1b the best FTDNA can do, My Homepage still says I'm waiting for a "prediction", will this prediction give me a V88?
He is listed 305168 R1b R-M343 M343+, M269- with the R1b in green. This is confusing, any ideas or is V88+ still a possibility?

I will be getting Geno 2 test. I want to know my % of ethnicity(if its the right term), genetic origins, etc. Being Jewish with my "Y" originating in the Ukraine, I expected Ashkenazi origins and hoped to see my DNA line passing through the Levant, you know, the biblical connection.
Would Geno 2.0 give him what he wants and what we need for the phylogenetic tree? AJL or others, any thoughts on autosomal testing?


Moderators, if this needs to be thrown on another thread please do so.

Rathna
11-01-2013, 05:13 AM
@ JoeB

305168 Lehman Moses SCHUSTER, [email protected] - [email protected], Mielnica Ukraine R1b
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 28 18 9-9 11 12 27 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 18 19 32-38 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 10 11 8 9 11 12 22-22 15 11 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 This haplotype belong to the _R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C2, even though with a few mutations. They descend all from an unique recent ancestor and we know everything about them, being two of them (Kasdin and Vass) also tested for Geno 2.0: they have 25 SNPs marked PF (the Sardinian ones) in common with the other tested known so far: the guy of Spanish origin Alvarez. If you look at the "Morley's tree" all is clear. Morley accepted my remark that they belong to the same cluster even though one of them had two no-calls in his Geno 2.0 and only Kasdin has a new private SNP. It is an useless expense to test them, and also 305168: I may send him his Geno 2.0 without he does it.

It isn't true that only (N16605) Savage/Shpritz of the Jewish R1b1* cluster (they all belong to an unique haplotype) has been tested so far. Not only also Segarra of the Spanish cluster has been tested and has four mutations, but in the same cluster of Savage has been tested also the Italian American DeMao. Only that he found impossible to send his data to FTDNA , he sent them to me, he has only a private mutation (I have spoken of it in my "Rathna's assessment") and now you can see his data also in the "Itai Perez spreadsheet".
I remember to you that DeMao, Toniolo, Buono di Bello, possibly Mangino when he is tested for Geno 2.0, with their diversity and high variance are one of the strongest points of my theory of the Italian Refugium, now that all these Jews belong to an unique haplotype I think introgressed in Italy or in Europe and that the MIddle Eastern or Asian R1b1 are revealing not belonging to this cluster ancestor of the subclade, being P25+ but L388/L389-.

Joe B
11-01-2013, 03:31 PM
It is an useless expense to test them, and also 305168: I may send him his Geno 2.0 without he does it.

Are you saying that Geno 2.0 will not advance him to a terminal snp beyond the M343+, M269- tested with his backbone test? According to FTDNA, he just may be in the R-M343. Should he just wait for a la carte snps to be available? Also he has awaiting full mtdna results too.

Rathna
11-01-2013, 05:41 PM
Are you saying that Geno 2.0 will not advance him to a terminal snp beyond the M343+, M269- tested with his backbone test? According to FTDNA, he just may be in the R-M343. Should he just wait for a la carte snps to be available? Also he has awaiting full mtdna results too.

Joe B, I am saying that this will be his Geno 2.0, with or without F1389 (Kasdin’s private SNP):

CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1389+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L278+, L350+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L498+, L506+, L566+, L721+, L747+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P25+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6281+, PF6287+, PF6289+, PF6290+, PF6292+, PF6293+, PF6295+, PF6304+, PF6305+, PF6307+, PF6310+, PF6324+, PF6327+, PF6328+, PF6329+, PF6330+, PF6332+, PF6333+, PF6338+, PF6339+, PF6340+, PF6343+, PF6344+, PF6376+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V88+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+.

If he will get a different result, I’ll pay his test.

Joe B
11-01-2013, 07:48 PM
Joe B, I am saying that this will be his Geno 2.0, with or without F1389 (Kasdin’s private SNP):
CTS10168+,.......YSC0000288+.
If he will get a different result, I’ll pay his test.
That is very clear, thank you. I'll make sure he factors in your offer. I'm sure you are correct.

This is a list of the R-snps that Ftdna is using.
M207 rs2032658 ChrY:14091377 R-M207
M173 rs2032624 ChrY:13535818 R-M173
M198 rs2020857 ChrY:13540146 R-M198
M269 rs9786153 ChrY:21148755 R-M269
M124 - ChrY:20223889 R-M124

This may be a case where waiting until the new Y-tree is released in a week so is the better choice. Unless Geno 2.0 covers the M18, V8, V35, V7 V69 that are under V88 a la carte may be the best choice.

Rathna
11-01-2013, 08:23 PM
This may be a case where waiting until the new Y-tree is released in a week so is the better choice. Unless Geno 2.0 covers the M18, V8, V35, V7 V69 that are under V88 a la carte may be the best choice.

Kasdin [N9149 Kasdin R1b1c R-V88] has been tested M18- and of course all the cluster is and I think for all the other subclades of V88+. The solution isn't here. These V88+ have 25 PF (Sardinian) SNPs, and the problem is for me if they belonged to a Sardinian R-M18+, which we know is the most diffused subclade there of V88+. In this case V88+ and M18+ would be very close and that the origin of this haplogroup is in Italy or anyway Southern Europe is very strong.
It should make us think the fact that all the R-V88+ tested are very close for their Geno 2.0, both the Jewish clusters and the Spanish ones. We haven't so far a Geno 2.0 of the other European clusters (and put amongst them also the Italian Marchesi even though tested M269+ from FTDNA) neither of the African and Middle Easterner ones.

icebreaker
05-27-2014, 04:02 PM
I'm M269+ L23-

I have ordered PF7563


My 67 STR results
12 25 14 10 11-15 11 12 13 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-16 10 10 19-22 15 17 17 16 35-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Joe B
05-27-2014, 05:05 PM
I'm M269+ L23-

I have ordered PF7563


My 67 STR results
12 25 14 10 11-15 11 12 13 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-16-16-16 10 10 19-22 15 17 17 16 35-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
Thanks Icebreaker,
Those 67 STRs and the coming PF7563 SNP test will be very helpful in defining your haplogroup. Mike W did an excellent analysis of the STRs for M269+ L23- last fall. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1462-M269*-%28R1b-P25-gt-L389-gt-P297-gt-M269xL23%29&p=16607&viewfull=1#post16607
If you haven't already done so, take a look at the R1b-Early Haplotypes spreadsheet Mike made and see how your STRs compare. It's in the R1b Yahoo group. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-YDNA/info
Instructions: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1469-R1b-Early-Subclades-Haplotypes-Spreadsheet

icebreaker
02-26-2015, 03:30 PM
I wonder if the theories about M269xL23 has changed after my big-y results..

TigerMW
02-26-2015, 03:47 PM
Does anyone point to the latest draft tree of these early subclades? I need to read up on it and update the old R1b early branching charts I have.

I agree with icebreaker that it would be interesting to understand more about M269xL23 people since we now have ancient DNA with L23 people spread quite a ways east.

smal
02-26-2015, 04:47 PM
Does anyone point to the latest draft tree of these early subclades? I need to read up on it and update the old R1b early branching charts I have.


Mikewww, look at the R1b1a2/ht35 project tree (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35%20project%20tree_12_02_17_2015.pdf).

TigerMW
02-26-2015, 05:27 PM
Mikewww, look at the R1b1a2/ht35 project tree (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b1a2_ht35%20project%20tree_12_02_17_2015.pdf).

Thank you. You team does nice work.
The distribution of the L23- folks is something to really look at.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

Just a thought for the project administrators.... Many people don't know what ht35 is as I'm sure you are aware. FTDNA is moving us to the new screen formatting and as they do that (or if you go ahead and press the button yourself now) the project URL will change from
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/
to
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht35new/

Since members will have to save a new bookmark/favorite anyway now is a great time to change the unique project name, you could use this as an opportunity for updated project URL to something like possibly:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/R-M269+P312-U106-/
or
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/R-M269xP312xU106/

Almost forgot, if you want to make such a change, send an email to Janine Cloud at genebygene (FTDNA).

brygian
10-06-2015, 07:34 PM
Several days ago Personal Genome Project released new data. PGP226 is R1b1a2b1-PF7563: https://my.pgp-hms.org/profile/huF160AA