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savas
06-20-2018, 02:28 AM
Hi there

I was going through some threads and I'm trying to figure out my DNA and whether I am Kurdish or Armenian, because my family considers ourselves as Zaza Kurds, but my DNA says 70% Armenian (using ancestry.co.uk). What's the conclusion here? How can I know for sure?

Lupus82
06-20-2018, 06:36 AM
Download your raw data from the genetic test company and upload it onto Gedmatch. After you upload your results, use the admixture tools to estimate your genetic breakdown. Post the results of MDLP K23b, World-22, Eurogenes K36 and PuntDNAL K13 global results. We can help you with it.

ZephyrousMandaru
06-21-2018, 01:04 AM
Firstly, be cautious on how you interpret your results, often times these companies use specific ethnic groups as their benchmark for defining a given genetic cluster. So the 70% "Armenian" could be broadly construed as 70% "West Asian." It doesn't necessarily imply that you are principally of Armenian descent, all that can be deternined is that you are 70% genetic similar to the Armenian reference population or subpopulation that forms whatever Ancestry.co.uk regards as the West Asian component. For all you know, they're only using a few populations which don't include Kurds or Iranians.

When that occurs, the algorithm has to select the most parsimonious population(s) to ascertain your genetic affinities, which in this case would be Armenians. If you wanted to find out if you have actual Armenian ancestry, then an Identity-By-Descent test is the best method to do so, as it examines recently inherited DNA segments comparing yourself and the Armenian population. ADMIXTURE and other similar utilities used to assess your genetic ancestry are inadequate in terms of deducing the direction of gene flow, only ancient DNA can answer that, even in circumstances where X population is the best modern example of an ancient population due to their homogeneity, you cannot assume that they are reflective of ancient populations and the majority of the time they are not.

All modern populations are composed of complex, distinct assemblages of ancient populations that are no longer extant and that no modern group can accurately represent them, no matter how isolated they've remained.

ms85
06-21-2018, 01:12 AM
What's the conclusion here? How can I know for sure?Conclusion here is that you are not from the Moon.

The best thing what you can do is to compare your auDNA with Armenian, Kurdish and other populations in that area. Average of Armenians and Kurds is known, so it would be not that difficult to compare.


Maybe your auDNA is mixed? Can be a possibility, so don't be surprised.

savas
06-21-2018, 04:46 AM
Download your raw data from the genetic test company and upload it onto Gedmatch. After you upload your results, use the admixture tools to estimate your genetic breakdown. Post the results of MDLP K23b, World-22, Eurogenes K36 and PuntDNAL K13 global results. We can help you with it.



I've registered and uploaded my raw data to Gedmatch. So if I'm not mistaken, I go to Admixture (heritage) > select one from the dropdown list, leave "Admixture Proportions (With link to Oracle) " as default and click continue?

savas
06-21-2018, 04:56 AM
MDLP MDLP K23b Oracle results:


# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 41.24
2 South_Central_Asian 21.62
3 Near_East 10.66
4 European_Early_Farmers 8.33
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.24
6 South_Indian 3.5
7 European_Hunters_Gatherers 3.36
8 North_African 2.7
9 Arctic 0.88
10 East_Siberian 0.84
11 East_African 0.83
12 Khoisan 0.74
13 Austronesian 0.44
14 Australoid 0.24
15 Paleo_Siberian 0.19
16 Subsaharian 0.11
17 African_Pygmy 0.08


MDLP World-22 Oracle results:

# Population Percent
1 West-Asian 44.75
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 19.74
3 Near_East 17.78
4 North-East-European 7.91
5 Indian 4.62
6 Indo-Iranian 2.51
7 Samoedic 0.9
8 Indo-Tibetan 0.72
9 South-African 0.36
10 South-America_Amerind 0.32
11 Melanesian 0.22
12 Mesoamerican 0.11
13 North-Siberean 0.06

Eurogenes K36 Admixture Proportions

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 1.33
Armenian 7.26
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.19
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.24
East_Med 25.55
Eastern_Euro 1.65
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 6.78
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 13.85
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 13.37
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 17.35
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.12
West_African -
West_Caucasian 10.30
West_Med -

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:


# Population Percent
1 West_Asia 43.99
2 SW_Europe 23.71
3 SW_Asia 15.11
4 NE_Europe 6.8
5 South_Asia 5.05
6 Siberia 1.58
7 SE_Asia 1.18
8 Americas 0.84
9 South_Africa 0.83
10 Oceania 0.73
11 West_Africa 0.18

StarDS9
06-21-2018, 12:21 PM
Your DNA is clearly Kurdish to be more specific it is Northern Kurdish and is pretty similar to Kurds in Turkey. Kurds in Turkey do have some other mixture compared to Southern and Eastern Kurds who are more Iranian shifted. But overall Kurds in Turkey cluster with other Kurds.

Lupus82
06-21-2018, 01:11 PM
Firstly, be cautious on how you interpret your results, often times these companies use specific ethnic groups as their benchmark for defining a given genetic cluster. So the 70% "Armenian" could be broadly construed as 70% "West Asian." It doesn't necessarily imply that you are principally of Armenian descent, all that can be deternined is that you are 70% genetic similar to the Armenian reference population or subpopulation that forms whatever Ancestry.co.uk regards as the West Asian component. For all you know, they're only using a few populations which don't include Kurds or Iranians.

When that occurs, the algorithm has to select the most parsimonious population(s) to ascertain your genetic affinities, which in this case would be Armenians. If you wanted to find out if you have actual Armenian ancestry, then an Identity-By-Descent test is the best method to do so, as it examines recently inherited DNA segments comparing yourself and the Armenian population. ADMIXTURE and other similar utilities used to assess your genetic ancestry are inadequate in terms of deducing the direction of gene flow, only ancient DNA can answer that, even in circumstances where X population is the best modern example of an ancient population due to their homogeneity, you cannot assume that they are reflective of ancient populations and the majority of the time they are not.

All modern populations are composed of complex, distinct assemblages of ancient populations that are no longer extant and that no modern group can accurately represent them, no matter how isolated they've remained.

Your explanation is perfect in terms of technical details. Nonetheless, admixture tools are not that bad to ascertain whether a particular person derives his ancestry of the same gene pool that his ethnicity is supposed to have. People sharing the same gene pool would differ in terms of proportions of different genetic components.

By the way, is there a way to use the Identity-By-Descent tools as regular users? I wish to see which ethnicities contributed to my own ancestry.

Lupus82
06-21-2018, 01:14 PM
Your DNA is clearly Kurdish to be more specific it is Northern Kurdish and is pretty similar to Kurds in Turkey. Kurds in Turkey do have some other mixture compared to Southern and Eastern Kurds who are more Iranian shifted. But overall Kurds in Turkey cluster with other Kurds.

Yes, he is indeed Kurdish. The best indicator is the high level of South Central Asian component. That is a sign of Iran neolithic. His Armenian score is lower than most Kurds score.

What is interesting is that he is a little shifted towards Levant. His East Med score is higher than that of other Kurds.

StarDS9
06-21-2018, 01:57 PM
Savas should post his Gedrosia K12 and it's Oracle and Mixed Mode Population.

StarDS9
06-21-2018, 02:24 PM
Yes, he is indeed Kurdish. The best indicator is the high level of South Central Asian component. That is a sign of Iran neolithic. His Armenian score is lower than most Kurds score.

What is interesting is that he is a little shifted towards Levant. His East Med score is higher than that of other Kurds.

He probably has some mixture maybe from Western Turkey, comparing his is 25% mine is 10%.

StarDS9
06-21-2018, 03:58 PM
Welcome, we share 9.9 cM. probably distant cousins.



21,6% south central asian component isn't high its low. but it is typical for northern kurds. Armenian average in K23b is 18,49% kurdish average is 27,85% ( I dont know what kind of kurds are used for the spreadsheet).



I think it might of been Southern Kurds or the Kurds from Armenia. Mine is 25.7%, I find MDLP K23b to be very accurate for my ancestry, in oracle its mostly Kurdish E as primary and Caucasians as secondary.

85.9% Kurd_East ( ) + 14.1% Circassian ( ) @ 1.92

savas
06-21-2018, 04:52 PM
Savas should post his Gedrosia K12 and it's Oracle and Mixed Mode Population.

I'll go back later today to share those results.

Would be nice if there was an easy copy feature. :D

EDIT: Ok for some reason it keeps saying I'm not allowed to post links when I try to paste my results here.. I've checked and I see no links or URL's!

savas
06-21-2018, 07:45 PM
Welcome, we share 9.9 cM. probably distant cousins.

No idea what cM means or the numbers to be honest, but hello cousin! LOL

Magnetic
06-25-2018, 02:43 AM
your results are very very similar to mine even though I dont know how your oracles are . I am also from Dersim like you . I am Kurdish . so are you :)

alhan
06-28-2018, 11:04 AM
Welcome, we share 9.9 cM. probably distant cousins.



21,6% south central asian component isn't high its low. but it is typical for northern kurds. Armenian average in K23b is 18,49% kurdish average is 27,85% ( I dont know what kind of kurds are used for the spreadsheet).

EDIT:
He is definitely western shifted with oracles like this (puntDNAL global 13):

8 76.7% Kurdish + 23.3% Turkish_Trabzon @ 3.19
11 86.2% Kurdish + 13.8% Cypriot @ 3.41
15 74.3% Kurdish + 25.7% Armenian @ 3.53
18 83.5% Kurdish + 16.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.6
19 56% Iranian + 44% Armenian @ 3.63
20 77.6% Kurdish + 22.4% Assyrian @ 3.64

where as I don't even get kurdish in that calculator. I get Iranian on my single population sharing, and all the first population in mixed populations, with exception of 85.9% Kurdish + 14.1% Tadjik and 91% Kurdish + 9% Burusho, probably because I have ancestry from inbred tribes.

Hey there Savas,

I match with you as well, our match is 16.3 cM.

Let me tell you about what that tell us; normally 7 cM is the threshold and shows that you are likely related to that person.
Some people with hundreds of matches above 40-50 cM just ignore these small segments. But in our region it is not really easy to have as strong matches as they do, so we try to play with these smaller segments.

That shows we had a common ancestor back in 300-500 years. And I am pretty sure that it is from Dersim area.

Because I do match with you on my 8th chromosome which I call Dersim zone.
Nearly all my matches on this zone are Dersim related matches.

I am from Malatya without known history from Dersim, but it turns out that I am closely related to Dersim from both paternal and maternal lines.

I've checked out your matches, I've had contact with some of them, a few of them has Armenian background, and several has Turkmen history.

And looking at Gedmatch calculator components, as suggested by other fellows here your SCA and Near East values are lower than Northern Kurds. Considering you have some matches with strong Iranian ancestry (which has higher SCA values as in Kurd_East reference) you should have strong Turkmen influence in your gene pool. I think it's pretty normal as you are from Sivas.

StarDS9
06-28-2018, 11:28 AM
I match someone on Gedmatch with the name Savas Dersim but this persons results differ from the ones posted. So some people might be getting someone else and not the thread poster.

alhan
06-29-2018, 08:02 AM
I have some turkish matches from malatya. I have ancestry from the neighbouring province. Do you use gedmatch genesis or the other gedmatch? Maybe we share segments too? I am of sunni heritage.

Savas is from dersim not sivas.

I have both Gedmatch and Genesis. We had discussed before with PMs. Interestingly we do not match not even under the threshold. I remember you match with lots of people from Central Anatolia from Cihanbeyli, Ankara, Haymana etc. I do have many matches from these tribes from Central Anadolia yet I do not match with you.

I remember reading somewhere about Sivas, but I checked it and not mention of Sivas. I made up I guess;)

Savaş uses a nickname so I don't mind sharing his nickname. It is listed as *S.