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GoldenHind
10-15-2013, 09:40 PM
I have received an email requesting help from a Lebanese Christian living in Brazil who has tested R1b-M269. He believes he is of Arab origins, and has no knowledge of any European connection. He does have some rather unusual STR values. His Ysearch ID is VR8N4. As this is totally beyond my area of knowledge, I thought I would post it here. Are there SNPs he should test for? Are there other instances of M269 in that area of the mid-East I seem to remember something about a study which found M269 in Lebanon some years ago, but am hoping for something beyond the 'descendant of a Crusader from Europe' which I seem to remember was floated at that time.

Joe B
10-15-2013, 09:48 PM
I have received an email requesting help from a Lebanese Christian living in Brazil who has tested R1b-M269. He believes he is of Arab origins, and has no knowledge of any European connection. He does have some rather unusual STR values. His Ysearch ID is VR8N4. As this is totally beyond my area of knowledge, I thought I would post it here. Are there SNPs he should test for? Are there other instances of M269 in that area of the mid-East I seem to remember something about a study which found M269 in Lebanon some years ago, but am hoping for something beyond the 'descendant of a Crusader from Europe' which I seem to remember was floated at that time.
Hey GoldenHind,
Is this the guy on the FTDNA forum with the very long (60) thread? I had just suggested that he order Geno2.0 while it is on sale.
Just checked and it is him. He does have some unusual strs.

PANEL 1 (1-12) 13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29

PANEL 2 (13-25)16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17

PANEL 3 (26-37)10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

Did not know he was Christian Arab. Noticed some knuckleheads were giving him some static on that forum. I would think Humanist would want a look at his kit 298933.

George Chandler
10-16-2013, 01:30 AM
If he's only tested to 37 markers then he should probably test to 111 markers. I think getting the Geno 2.0 test done would be his best bet as well.

It would depend on how far back in time he felt his ancestry was existed in the Arabia. I don't think it's a very common signature in Arabian Peninsula..I wouldn't rule out Turkey or the Caucasus Region further back. I wouldn't even suggest a Crusader unless there was some evidence found that suggested it.

George

Humanist
10-16-2013, 02:11 AM
I have received an email requesting help from a Lebanese Christian living in Brazil who has tested R1b-M269. He believes he is of Arab origins, and has no knowledge of any European connection. He does have some rather unusual STR values. His Ysearch ID is VR8N4. As this is totally beyond my area of knowledge, I thought I would post it here. Are there SNPs he should test for? Are there other instances of M269 in that area of the mid-East I seem to remember something about a study which found M269 in Lebanon some years ago, but am hoping for something beyond the 'descendant of a Crusader from Europe' which I seem to remember was floated at that time.

Thank you for the post, GoldenHind. In the Semitic-speaking parts of the Middle East, based on the currently available dataset, R-L23 is the haplogroup par excellence among Eastern Assyrians, and North Syrian Alawites. I did a search, and it appears that the man's last name is Haddad. Haddad, a common surname among Arabic-speaking peoples, means "smith" in Arabic.

You may wish to refer him to the following link: A possible connection between R-L23 and Smith/Ironworking in the Near East? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=4119&viewfull=1#post4119)

I will also take a look at his STR markers.

ADW_1981
10-16-2013, 02:15 AM
Thank you for the post, GoldenHind. In the Semitic-speaking parts of the Middle East, based on the currently available dataset, R-L23 is the haplogroup par excellence among Eastern Assyrians, and N Syrian Alawites. I did a search, and it appears that the man's last name is Haddad. Haddad, a common surname among Arabic-speaking peoples, means "smith" in Arabic.

You may wish to refer him to the following link: A possible connection between R-L23 and Smith/Ironworking in the Near East? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?615-Assyrian-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=4119&viewfull=1#post4119)

I will also take a look at his STR markers.

I wonder if it's possible that he's R1b1c, even though it says R1b1b2? There have been several men who were recently tested who seem like V88 candidates from either North Africa or the Mid-East and are appearing as R1b1b2 in the FTDNA results. This may be a glitch or bad quality control...? Also, I believe there is also another Haddad who is R1b1c. Incendently there is also a R1a1a Haddad....

Rathna
10-16-2013, 03:12 AM
I have written about him and another of the R1b1 FTDNA Project demonstrating that they are probably R-V88+ and not R-M269. The same happened for the Italian Marchesi and it is sub judice the case of Mangino yet. I am speaking about him from years, and finally it seems that next he will order a Geno 2.0 test. I offered a contribute for this.

GoldenHind
10-16-2013, 07:24 PM
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I can confirm he has tested M269+ with FTDNA, so unless there was a lab error I think we can rule out V88.

I'm not sure Geno 2 is the best course of action for him, since it doesn't test for P312.

What do you think about starting with L23, and if positive, moving on to L11?

ADW_1981
10-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I can confirm he has tested M269+ with FTDNA, so unless there was a lab error I think we can rule out V88.

I'm not sure Geno 2 is the best course of action for him, since it doesn't test for P312.

What do you think about starting with L23, and if positive, moving on to L11?

He confirmed with you he actually ordered M269? If that really is the case then he should order L23 I guess and work his way up. Odd that a Libyan guy was also M269+ but looks like V88, especially since we know V88 is there.

Rathna
10-16-2013, 07:37 PM
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I can confirm he has tested M269+ with FTDNA, so unless there was a lab error I think we can rule out V88.

I'm not sure Geno 2 is the best course of action for him, since it doesn't test for P312.

What do you think about starting with L23, and if positive, moving on to L11?

I think that Geno 2.0 (or also Chromo2) should be the best solution, because it tests many SNPs, which are better than one on blind. Even though he has some different values as to the expected ones, DYS385=12-12, DYS464=12-12-15-17, DYS438=11 are in favour of R-V88 rather than R-M269.

Joe B
10-16-2013, 07:47 PM
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I can confirm he has tested M269+ with FTDNA, so unless there was a lab error I think we can rule out V88.

I'm not sure Geno 2 is the best course of action for him, since it doesn't test for P312.

What do you think about starting with L23, and if positive, moving on to L11?
I agree with Rathna about Geno2.O. That being said, what about starting out with Z2103 instead of L23?
This Phylogenetic tree that Mike made is a good guide.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendency_Tree.jpg

TigerMW
10-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Hey GoldenHind,
Is this the guy on the FTDNA forum with the very long (60) thread? I had just suggested that he order Geno2.0 while it is on sale.
Just checked and it is him. He does have some unusual strs.

PANEL 1 (1-12) 13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29

PANEL 2 (13-25)16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17

PANEL 3 (26-37)10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

Did not know he was Christian Arab. Noticed some knuckleheads were giving him some static on that forum. I would think Humanist would want a look at his kit 298933.

I copied him into the spreadsheets. There is no way to pick out an SNP or two for him to test, especially since we don't have 67 markers.

My recommendation is Geno 2 while it is on sale.

His DYS464 is very unusual for an L11 or L23 person. It actually looks a bit V88-ish but FTDNA tested him as M269+. I would think there is a good chance is M269+ L23-, which is pretty rare. If he was L23, then he should test Z2103 then L584 and/or L277.

It is true that Geno 2 has holes, the worst of which I think are P312 and DF27 missing, but I don't think the odds are high he P312* or DF27* anyway and those are not large groups (paragroups.) The downstream stuff under DF27 is pretty well covered.

At $39 a crack, I don't see reaching a terminal SNP for several tries unless he is L23- and he tested for that first. Next thing you know you are Geno 2's price. If he can get the sale price today he ought to, I think. He very well could need another test or two after that, but at least he won't be possibly wandering through 4 or 5 tests and still not there.

I almost don't trust FTDNA's M269+ report this. I guess it is probably good. With a Geno 2 there is a chance we might find something we don't expect. If it was me, at least I know I'm going to get something for my money and mt and autosomal info to boot.

Humanist
10-21-2013, 06:28 PM
I will be replying to the gentleman later today via email, but in our limited communications so far, one interesting (new) fact has emerged. His paternal grandfather was Chaldean Catholic from Mosul (Nineveh Governorate), North Iraq.

Chaldean Catholic + "Nestorian" = old Church of the East.

lgmayka
10-21-2013, 07:18 PM
PANEL 1 (1-12) 13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29

PANEL 2 (13-25)16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17

PANEL 3 (26-37)10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11
Perhaps his nearest neighbor in Ysearch is ZMFMV (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=zmfmv&viewuid=ZMFMV&p=1#), who has (I think) a Turkish surname and lists his haplogroup as R1a !

Ahaddad
10-30-2013, 03:34 AM
I'm the Lebanese that have this dudes and i was tested and have this markers.

Ahaddad
11-07-2013, 02:58 PM
I received my GENO 2.0, now how i make the test? Have instructions? used the two brushes in cheek and how time to taked first to second? etc

razyn
11-07-2013, 03:24 PM
The main rule about time has been to wait two hours after eating or drinking, so all the DNA scraped off your cheek will be yours and not the chicken's (or whatever you ate).

lgmayka
11-07-2013, 04:35 PM
I received my GENO 2.0, now how i make the test? Have instructions? used the two brushes in cheek and how time to taked first to second? etc
MOST IMPORTANT: Save the box with the ID code. You will absolutely, positively need that ID code in order to register on the Genographic web site and get your results.

Instructions are included in the box (perhaps behind something else, or on the back side of a piece of paper, or on the inside of the box?). But the instructions should be similar to FTDNA's (http://www.familytreedna.com/test-instructions.aspx).

GTC
11-07-2013, 11:25 PM
The main rule about time has been to wait two hours after eating or drinking, so all the DNA scraped off your cheek will be yours and not the chicken's (or whatever you ate).

I have found that scraping first thing in the morning after waking to be a good time.