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Arnfried
06-22-2018, 07:19 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

Pylsteen
06-22-2018, 07:35 PM
Have you joined a haplogroup E project at FTDNA? They could probably tell more.

Finn
06-22-2018, 08:58 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

It's quite irritating through the years there is a constant relabeling, what's your number on FTDNA, what kind of markers do you have?

Biggest chance in Europe, especial Central Europe you are E-V13, otherwise E-V22 than we can shake hands....;)

Nive1526
06-22-2018, 10:16 PM
In the current ISOGG Tree, E1b1b1a1b1a3 is downstream of V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a) and defined by the SNP M35.2.
It has no equivalent in the yfull tree, where M35.2 is one of the haplogroup E-M35 markers. M35 and M35.2 is the same position, but a different allele. M35 = C, M35.2 = T.

ISOGG states:

The position of M35.2 is uncertain with respect to the positions of L241, L250, L251, L252, and L540.

All named above SNP's are subclades of V13, this means according to ISOGG, the position of M35.2 is unresolved downstream of V13, yet yfull puts it back to the ancestral level of M35. Both in the newest version.
To me, it seems like the whole marker isn't very informative, since it is put in very different positions and I wouldn't trust it beyond E-M35.

Arnfried
06-23-2018, 06:13 PM
Thanks for your responses.

I'm part of E-M35 project, but they can't classify me and suggest me a Big Y test; but this test is unfortunately really expensive for my modest budget.
So I bought yesterday the SNP's test for V-22, as it should be the most probable subclade I belong to. On the other hand, I have no idea how an E-V22 man reached Paris's area before the recent immigration... All my Y-ancestors (who wear my last name) were protestant as far as I can see. May be a really old Neolithic remnant?

misanthropy
06-23-2018, 06:23 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

Hey, I have the exact thing. 23andme is E-M78, wegene is E1b1b1a1b1a3. I figured that’s just another way to write e1b1b1a1. Edit: I get it from my Yemeni paternal line, btw.

Arnfried
06-23-2018, 06:47 PM
Hey, I have the exact thing. 23andme is E-M78, wegene is E1b1b1a1b1a3. I figured that’s just another way to write e1b1b1a1. Edit: I get it from my Yemeni paternal line, btw.

It seems understandable for a Yemenite line :)
Fortunatelly, I'm not a poor lonesome V22 in (North) Western Europe (Hi Finn:beerchug:)

Finn
06-23-2018, 07:14 PM
It seems understandable for a Yemenite line :)
Fortunatelly, I'm not a poor lonesome V22 in (North) Western Europe (Hi Finn:beerchug:)

:beerchug: nope!! I'm wondering too: how it came in my Frisian paternal side.....

This website gives some clues:
http://e-v22.net

Riccardo
08-12-2018, 04:19 AM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)



Hey Arnfried, do you have a GEDMATCH ID?

Lupriac
11-11-2018, 07:11 PM
It seems understandable for a Yemenite line :)
Fortunatelly, I'm not a poor lonesome V22 in (North) Western Europe (Hi Finn:beerchug:)

E-V22+ was found in China apparently. As for Europe I think you're most likely a remnant of the Near Eastern Neolithic Farmers, who brought cereals (Wheat, Barley and Rye) along other crops, and domesticated animals (domesticated Cattle, Goats and Sheep) with them.

NetNomad
11-11-2018, 07:53 PM
E-V22+ was found in China apparently. As for Europe I think you're most likely a remnant of the Near Eastern Neolithic Farmers, who brought cereals (Wheat, Barley and Rye) along other crops, and domesticated animals (domesticated Cattle, Goats and Sheep) with them.

E-M78 was more Egypt/Northeast African-centric.

While E-M123 seemed to have been the dominant Neolithic Levantine E lineage.

How, E-V13 / E-V22 got to Europe is quite a mystery.

Lupriac
11-12-2018, 01:30 PM
E-M78 was more Egypt/Northeast African-centric.

While E-M123 seemed to have been the dominant Neolithic Levantine E lineage.

How, E-V13 / E-V22 got to Europe is quite a mystery.

Indeed. Although this does not necessarily assert that all E men in the Natufians were under E-M123. I think most of them definitely are, but some lineages such as E-V22, E-V12 and others seem to be found in the Levant and Arabian peninsula as well, albeit in low numbers.

I am also quite interested in how did my E-V12 reach the Levant.

Tz85
11-12-2018, 11:57 PM
Indeed. Although this does not necessarily assert that all E men in the Natufians were under E-M123. I think most of them definitely are, but some lineages such as E-V22, E-V12 and others seem to be found in the Levant and Arabian peninsula as well, albeit in low numbers.

I am also quite interested in how did my E-V12 reach the Levant.

Probably Egyptians who joined Israel when they left with the Exodus.

Lupriac
11-13-2018, 03:12 PM
Probably Egyptians who joined Israel when they left with the Exodus.

Interesting. I do not think we know if the exodus happened or not, it may have happened very well.

It also can be linked to Egyptian soldiers or Egyptian traders who bought land at the Levant and settled there? My hometown had massive trade with the Egyptians and there were found Egyptian amulets and goods from the Old/Middle kingdom to a statue of a King from the Third intermediate period.

Tz85
11-13-2018, 06:10 PM
I mean that's possible, but I think E-V12, E-V65 in the Levant is a more recent occurrence. 3-4000 years. We know a large multitude left Egypt with the Israelites to Canaan. Of course would of been E carriers.

drobbah
11-13-2018, 06:42 PM
E-V12 and even E-V32 can be found in the Levant (V32 pops up in Southern Levant) and Arabia.Their migrations were before AE civilization even existed

hartaisarlag
11-13-2018, 07:23 PM
I mean that's possible, but I think E-V12, E-V65 in the Levant is a more recent occurrence. 3-4000 years. We know a large multitude left Egypt with the Israelites to Canaan. Of course would of been E carriers.

We have no proof of this. My low-confidence guess is that it’s not *entirely made up*, but hypothesizing on the assumption of an Exodus event is ahistorical.

Tz85
11-13-2018, 10:01 PM
Their is plenty of evidence for the exodus. I'm not going to waste my time with idiotic statements.

hartaisarlag
11-13-2018, 11:41 PM
Their is plenty of evidence for the exodus. I'm not going to waste my time with idiotic statements.

I have a degree in Near Eastern languages + civilizations, and have worked in the field among Israeli archaeologists. I also would *love* for there to be evidence of an exodus from Egypt, but the mainstream consensus is that there’s not. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but there’s no cause to assume it did. Happy to hear interesting evidence to the contrary.

Tz85
11-14-2018, 12:51 AM
Jebel El Lawz and surrounding areas is proof enough. Your degree must not have helped you.

Agamemnon
11-14-2018, 01:58 AM
We have no proof of this. My low-confidence guess is that it’s not *entirely made up*, but hypothesizing on the assumption of an Exodus event is ahistorical.

Indeed, the origins of the Israelites (what some scholars would call the Proto-Israelites) are to be found in the local LBA Canaanite population of the Levant, not in a mass migration of presumably "Asiatic" refugees fleeing Egypt (which the Egyptian records apparently know nothing about). That being said, I also doubt that the story of the Exodus was, as you rightly said, "entirely made up", while the Biblical version contains a ton of anachronistic descriptions several important details strongly indicate some sort of familiarity with the situation Egypt found itself in between the MBA IIA and MBA IIC periods, details that could not have been made up during the Iron Age II and which certainly reflect an old local tradition or origin myth among a small group of NW Semitic migrants who left Egypt.

Likewise, several of the patriarchal stories are not totally baseless either, even though they have even more anachronistic material, in fact a careful analysis of the toponyms in the Levant clearly shows a difference between the coastal areas and the highlands of historical Judea-Samaria where the toponyms follow a pattern that is widespread in the areas associated with the Amorite kingdoms of ancient Syria (specifically the areas in Upper Mesopotamia and the Jazire region of Syria, areas strongly tied to the Abrahamic narrative) suggesting some form of migration from the north, this is bound to be tied to the MBA IIA-B transition. So here too, the Biblical narrative might reflect a considerably older (and specifically regional) tradition which was blown out of proportion.

What we are more or less sure of now though is that Iron Age II Jerusalem was not a "village" (in fact, it never was a village during the Bronze Age to begin with) and that the Biblical description of a United Monarchy might not be as far-fetched as some implied it was (though of course nowhere near the "empire" portrayed in the Bible). But this is another debate, which has a lot to do with Finkelstein's "Low Chronology".

All in all, while the Biblical narrative contains a lot of inaccurate, anachronistic, fantastic and downright exaggerated stuff, not all of it is as baseless and ahistorical as some scholars would like us to think it is.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.


Jebel El Lawz and surrounding areas is proof enough. Your degree must not have helped you.

Even Hoffmeier has issues with the Jabal al Lawz theory, and I seriously doubt anyone can accuse Hoffmeier of being an atheist quite frankly.

Lupriac
11-14-2018, 06:25 PM
Indeed, the origins of the Israelites (what some scholars would call the Proto-Israelites) are to be found in the local LBA Canaanite population of the Levant, not in a mass migration of presumably "Asiatic" refugees fleeing Egypt (which the Egyptian records apparently know nothing about). That being said, I also doubt that the story of the Exodus was, as you rightly said, "entirely made up", while the Biblical version contains a ton of anachronistic descriptions several important details strongly indicate some sort of familiarity with the situation Egypt found itself in between the MBA IIA and MBA IIC periods, details that could not have been made up during the Iron Age II and which certainly reflect an old local tradition or origin myth among a small group of NW Semitic migrants who left Egypt.

Likewise, several of the patriarchal stories are not totally baseless either, even though they have even more anachronistic material, in fact a careful analysis of the toponyms in the Levant clearly shows a difference between the coastal areas and the highlands of historical Judea-Samaria where the toponyms follow a pattern that is widespread in the areas associated with the Amorite kingdoms of ancient Syria (specifically the areas in Upper Mesopotamia and the Jazire region of Syria, areas strongly tied to the Abrahamic narrative) suggesting some form of migration from the north, this is bound to be tied to the MBA IIA-B transition. So here too, the Biblical narrative might reflect a considerably older (and specifically regional) tradition which was blown out of proportion.

What we are more or less sure of now though is that Iron Age II Jerusalem was not a "village" (in fact, it never was a village during the Bronze Age to begin with) and that the Biblical description of a United Monarchy might not be as far-fetched as some implied it was (though of course nowhere near the "empire" portrayed in the Bible). But this is another debate, which has a lot to do with Finkelstein's "Low Chronology".

All in all, while the Biblical narrative contains a lot of inaccurate, anachronistic, fantastic and downright exaggerated stuff, not all of it is as baseless and ahistorical as some scholars would like us to think it is.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.



Even Hoffmeier has issues with the Jabal al Lawz theory, and I seriously doubt anyone can accuse Hoffmeier of being an atheist quite frankly.

I am interested as to could it have been a Hyksos king who was at the time of such exodus/event and it was buried from history because we do not know many things of the hyksos and they are obscure?

hartaisarlag
11-14-2018, 07:28 PM
I am interested as to could it have been a Hyksos king who was at the time of such exodus/event and it was buried from history because we do not know many things of the hyksos and they are obscure?

It’s not unlikely that the Exodus story is a composite memory of different aspects of the Egyptian-Levantine relationship throughout the MBA and LBA, including the reign and expulsion of the Hyksos, and the long shadow of Egyptian dominance in Canaan (which, curiously, the Hebrew Bible doesn’t reference as such once - save for the placename Mey Neftoah - even though it lasted until the 12th century). Similarly, Joshua probably preserves centuries’ worth of memories and legends about various Bronze Age conquests and razings, under a patina of accurate reference to 13th-12th century events (e.g. the destruction of Hazor).

Jack Johnson
11-26-2018, 07:56 AM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

Finn
11-26-2018, 10:02 AM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

Interesting Jack!

I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there. The last years I thought that E-V22 was brought into my Frisian ancestor by a raid of the Spanish army (in 1586).

But you bring the perspective of a Neolithic Farmer that brought E-V22 to NW Europe is at least something to think about.

On Eupedia Maciamo has figured out that people of the Megalith Funnelbeaker culoture had an African component in their DNA (see the Gokhem samples of Sweden). So was E-V22 (along other E-lines) among them?

This position could be strengthened by full gnome research.

Here you can see the Y-full branche of E-V22 I belong to E-PH2818, widespread in the middle east:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/

There are two obvious things (see the flags):
- I'm (Dutch flag) most close to a Palestine, the Levant was an important breeding ground of the neolithic evolution.
- A side branche is connected to Ireland and Wales, in the past also part of the Atlantic Megalith culture.

May be too far fetched, but the Neolithic Farmer could be the connection.

Still an important contra is: how did such a white raven in de DNA landscape of NW Europe survived for so long. Almost miraculous to me.....

Feel free to comment!

Finn
11-26-2018, 10:03 AM
sorry double posting!

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 10:27 AM
E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age

E-M81 has a TMRCA of 2800 years, so its certainly later than those periods



I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there

Does that make me a pink raven anywhere? ;)

Lupriac
11-26-2018, 01:28 PM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

Indeed! and I know some E Europeans who actually thought of themselves as "less" European after discovering they are under E-M35. We can find that E has entered Europe since at least 7000-8000 BCE:

27297

Lupriac
11-26-2018, 01:39 PM
Interesting Jack!

I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there. The last years I thought that E-V22 was brought into my Frisian ancestor by a raid of the Spanish army (in 1586).

But you bring the perspective of a Neolithic Farmer that brought E-V22 to NW Europe is at least something to think about.

On Eupedia Maciamo has figured out that people of the Megalith Funnelbeaker culoture had an African component in their DNA (see the Gokhem samples of Sweden). So was E-V22 (along other E-lines) among them?

This position could be strengthened by full gnome research.

Here you can see the Y-full branche of E-V22 I belong to E-PH2818, widespread in the middle east:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/

There are two obvious things (see the flags):
- I'm (Dutch flag) most close to a Palestine, the Levant was an important breeding ground of the neolithic evolution.
- A side branche is connected to Ireland and Wales, in the past also part of the Atlantic Megalith culture.

May be too far fetched, but the Neolithic Farmer could be the connection.

Still an important contra is: how did such a white raven in de DNA landscape of NW Europe survived for so long. Almost miraculous to me.....

Feel free to comment!

Agreed. Especially that both of our haplogroups (E-V22 and E-V12) entered the Levant around 9500-9000 BCE, this is certainly from Neolithic farmers and your ancestors must have been quite ancient at Europe. Don't forget almost all of ancient European cities/settlements were built by E1b1b/G/T men.

That's why it seems saying "Oh my haplogroup E came from a Roman soldier from Italia or Balkan" is quite absurd since E have been for quite some time in Europe now and entered Europe with the neolithic revolution around 7000-8000 BCE.

Our haplogroups are quite common in Egypt as well, so we might be related to some Pharaoh, who knows! Hah. ;)

27298

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:43 PM
E-M81 has a TMRCA of 2800 years, so its certainly later than those periods




Does that make me a pink raven anywhere? ;)


Indeed! and I know some E Europeans who actually thought of themselves as "less" European after discovering they are under E-M35. We can find that E has entered Europe since at least 7000-8000 BCE:

27297

I must say Moe12 that when FTDNA stated in a certificate that my Y-DNA E-V22 was connected to the Bantu neolithic, I fronzed...I was suprised: what!? Because E-V22 isn't the first Y-DNA that is mostly combined with an outmost NW European auDNA . :biggrin1: Would be the same if the certicate told you that your DNA was part of the Anglo-Saxon migration, you would fronze too I guess....

@Ruderico, there are in the Northern Netherlands only two known families with E-V22, I guess you can say we are white or pink or yellow or....fil in rare ravens ;) In this respect South Europe has more diversity....

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:56 PM
Agreed. Especially that both of our haplogroups (E-V22 and E-V12) entered the Levant around 9500-9000 BCE, this is certainly from Neolithic farmers and your ancestors must have been quite ancient at Europe. Don't forget almost all of ancient European cities/settlements were built by E1b1b/G/T men.

That's why it seems saying "Oh my haplogroup E came from a Roman soldier from Italia or Balkan" is quite absurd since E have been for quite some time in Europe now and entered Europe with the neolithic revolution around 7000-8000 BCE.

Our haplogroups are quite common in Egypt as well, so we might be related to some Pharaoh, who knows! Hah. ;)

27298

Yeah ok. But I must be cautieus. Until now no neolithic farmer found in Northern Europe with E V22 or cousin E-V12.

And by the way rare haplo types face during time a botte neck. In my genealogie there was a few centuries ago already a bottle neck, so when this is seenover thousands of years!
Miracle!

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 01:57 PM
@Ruderico, there are in the Northern Netherlands only two known families with E-V22, I guess you can say we are white or pink or yellow or....fil in rare ravens ;) In this respect South Europe has more diversity....

It does of course, but E-M123* is very rare which is what I meant, despite being 18000 years old :)
It seems to be everywhere in Europe, but at residual levels, people have posted a few other finds here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15559-wrong-yDNA&p=502576&viewfull=1#post502576)

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:59 PM
Agreed. Especially that both of our haplogroups (E-V22 and E-V12) entered the Levant around 9500-9000 BCE, this is certainly from Neolithic farmers and your ancestors must have been quite ancient at Europe. Don't forget almost all of ancient European cities/settlements were built by E1b1b/G/T men.

That's why it seems saying "Oh my haplogroup E came from a Roman soldier from Italia or Balkan" is quite absurd since E have been for quite some time in Europe now and entered Europe with the neolithic revolution around 7000-8000 BCE.

Our haplogroups are quite common in Egypt as well, so we might be related to some Pharaoh, who knows! Hah. ;)

27298

By the way E-V13 is another story, E-V13 followed the inland European route.

E-V22 is mostly found along the sea route in the Mediteranean.

See:
http://e-v22.net/descendants/

Finn
11-26-2018, 02:06 PM
It does of course, but E-M123* is very rare which is what I meant, despite being 18000 years old :)
It seems to be everywhere in Europe, but at residual levels, people have posted a few other finds here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15559-wrong-yDNA&p=502576&viewfull=1#post502576)

Ok but E-V22, EPH218 is more modest of age 8000 YBP, ok old enough but still....
see:
http://e-v22.net/origin/

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 02:20 PM
Ok but E-V22, EPH218 is more modest of age 8000 YBP, ok old enough but still....
see:
http://e-v22.net/origin/

Well to be fair MorleyDNA predicted me to be PF4428 which is "only" 10000yo, and I do have a FTDNA match of a Brazilian of Portuguese descent who is also PF4428 - we also share a surname, although it's really, really common - so it's probably correct. However all of my matches are men of Iberian descent (except one Norwegian) so maybe it's not as rare in NW Iberia as yours is in the northern Netherlands ;)

Lupriac
11-26-2018, 03:09 PM
By the way E-V13 is another story, E-V13 followed the inland European route.

E-V22 is mostly found along the sea route in the Mediteranean.

See:
http://e-v22.net/descendants/

Oh I know. E-V22 perhaps entered Europe later than E-V13, later on maybe around 5000-6000 BCE, I was tackling E in general, which is much more ancient than some people think "Oh, It must have been a Berber soldier" or "Oh, a Roman soldier!" or "some sort of a merchant" etc.... And since it is in Levant since 9000-8000 BCE it is therefore what I meant by associating neolithic farmers more likely than a very recent arrival. Although V22 seems to have been more successful than V12, as it is more frequent among the Levant and Europe (while V12 remained mostly at Egypt as evident through the 74% frequency at Upper Egypt) and V22 even made it to China, lol. :)

Bruma
11-26-2018, 03:40 PM
Well to be fair MorleyDNA predicted me to be PF4428 which is "only" 10000yo, and I do have a FTDNA match of a Brazilian of Portuguese descent who is also PF4428 - we also share a surname, although it's really, really common - so it's probably correct. However all of my matches are men of Iberian descent (except one Norwegian) so maybe it's not as rare in NW Iberia as yours is in the northern Netherlands ;)

My haplogroup is incredibly rare I only have 2 matches one Spaniard and a Calabrian

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 12:56 PM
My haplogroup is incredibly rare I only have 2 matches one Spaniard and a Calabrian

Cool, what's the TMRCA?

drobbah
11-27-2018, 01:04 PM
By the way E-V13 is another story, E-V13 followed the inland European route.

E-V22 is mostly found along the sea route in the Mediteranean.

See:
http://e-v22.net/descendants/
Are you the dutch V22 sample on yfull?

Govan
11-27-2018, 01:08 PM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

:lol: You think there have been no British and German migration into the kingdom Sweden (Finland was part of Sweden untill 1809)?

For Ireland and Scotland we know it's from the Normans.

EV13 is Neolithic. Not sure about EV22. Most Ev22 in Europe could descend from Jews, and/or Phoenician/Levantine traders.

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:13 PM
Are you the dutch V22 sample on yfull?

Yes indeed.

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:14 PM
. Not sure about EV22. Most Ev22 in Europe could descend from Jews, and/or Phoenician/Levantine traders.

My Y DNA comes from the heart of Friesland, no connection with Jews (is researched) nor with Levantine traders.....

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:15 PM
Cool, what's the TMRCA?

Time Most Recent Common Ancestor.

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Time Most Recent Common Ancestor.

Yes, I was aking what was his haplogroup's TMRCA :)

Govan
11-27-2018, 01:20 PM
Interesting Jack!

I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there. The last years I thought that E-V22 was brought into my Frisian ancestor by a raid of the Spanish army (in 1586).

But you bring the perspective of a Neolithic Farmer that brought E-V22 to NW Europe is at least something to think about.

On Eupedia Maciamo has figured out that people of the Megalith Funnelbeaker culoture had an African component in their DNA (see the Gokhem samples of Sweden). So was E-V22 (along other E-lines) among them?

This position could be strengthened by full gnome research.

Here you can see the Y-full branche of E-V22 I belong to E-PH2818, widespread in the middle east:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/

There are two obvious things (see the flags):
- I'm (Dutch flag) most close to a Palestine, the Levant was an important breeding ground of the neolithic evolution.
- A side branche is connected to Ireland and Wales, in the past also part of the Atlantic Megalith culture.

May be too far fetched, but the Neolithic Farmer could be the connection.

Still an important contra is: how did such a white raven in de DNA landscape of NW Europe survived for so long. Almost miraculous to me.....

Feel free to comment!

Have you trace back genealogically your father line?

I mean E1b1b Irish and and Scots trace their genealogy and found out their earliest ancestor was a Norman knight.

And Norman knights do sometimes descend from E1b1b Christian missionaries or Roman calvaries from south of the Mediterranean.

In your case I could think of a Jewish line, via Northern Germany Hanseatic or Holland. Could also be just an EV22 from the Neolithic times (via the Balkans).

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:23 PM
Finn just posted that there is no known Jewish connection, the haplogroup is nearly 6000 years old, it could have arrived a long time ago

Lupriac
11-27-2018, 01:26 PM
Does that make me a pink raven anywhere? ;)

Overall, E-M78 (E1b1b1a1 in 2017) and E-M81 (E1b1b1b1a in 2017) both constitute about 4.0% each, with a further 1.0% from Haplogroup E-M123 (E1b1b1b2a1) and 1.0% from unknown subclades of E-M96.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Y-Chromosome_haplogroups

:)

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:28 PM
Overall, E-M78 (E1b1b1a1 in 2017) and E-M81 (E1b1b1b1a in 2017) both constitute about 4.0% each, with a further 1.0% from Haplogroup E-M123 (E1b1b1b2a1) and 1.0% from unknown subclades of E-M96.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Y-Chromosome_haplogroups

The overwhelming majority of those E-M123 are M34, and I'm not. E-M123* is rare, only 6 have been reported in yDNA studies of Portugal so far, out of at thousands of individuals. Don't really care about other E-M35 subclades, they are very distantly connected to mine as the TMRCA is about 24000 years

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:29 PM
Yes, I was aking what was his haplogroup's TMRCA :)

hahahah :doh:

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:56 PM
Have you trace back genealogically your father line?

I mean E1b1b Irish and and Scots trace their genealogy and found out their earliest ancestor was a Norman knight.

And Norman knights do sometimes descend from E1b1b Christian missionaries or Roman calvaries from south of the Mediterranean.

In your case I could think of a Jewish line, via Northern Germany Hanseatic or Holland. Could also be just an EV22 from the Neolithic times (via the Balkans).

Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Lupriac
11-27-2018, 02:04 PM
An old E-M35 samples was found in the Netherlands

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=52.31165510000003%2C6.926828300000011&z=8

I wonder if it's V22...

Finn
11-27-2018, 03:27 PM
@moe12 many thanks!! I will research....

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 03:39 PM
I actually found that the only ancient E-M123* sample found (E-Y31991, which is just upstream of my PF4428) is from a Scythian who lived some 2800 years ago in modern northeastern Kazakhstan. Possibly my line isn't descended from his (eventhough the Scythian-descended Alani did settle in Portugal), but it is still a cool find/link

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#8/51.210/78.025 DA19

Lupriac
11-27-2018, 05:11 PM
@moe12 many thanks!! I will research....

Much welcome. Also I just remembered a V22 sample found in Germany since around 1650-1550 YBP (Years Before Present). Quite interesting.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=48.29341081750362%2C11.966550251771537&z=9

Finn
11-27-2018, 05:36 PM
Much welcome. Also I just remembered a V22 sample found in Germany since around 1650-1550 YBP (Years Before Present). Quite interesting.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=48.29341081750362%2C11.966550251771537&z=9

Thanks, last one looks Roman!

I guess the Oldenzaal one is E-V13 not sure....but biggest chance. E-V13 is less seldom in Northern Europe than E-V22.

Pylsteen
11-27-2018, 05:36 PM
@moe12 many thanks!! I will research....

That late medieval Oldenzaal sample may be interesting; also since Oldenzaal is quite catholic. For myself it is interesting that 8 of the 180 (medieval) Oldenzaal samples were W5 as I saw in this research (https://www.oldenzaal.nl/sites/default/files/memento-mori-archeologisch-onderzoek-plechelmusplein-deel2.pdf). I don't see the E1b sample in there but they may have done more research.

Govan
11-27-2018, 05:57 PM
Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

Lupriac
11-27-2018, 06:55 PM
Wait hold up E1b1a 11,000-14,000 years ago in Iran?! https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=35.28614974872685%2C54.233108983244506&z=7

Finn
11-27-2018, 08:10 PM
Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

I'm no anti-semite so if it was Jewish it was Jewish. But no sign of this.
Still a miracle when it came with the funnel beakers than it must be before 2700 BC infused......that's 4700 YBP, let's say my forefathers were on average 30 years old before they died, that's a chain of 157 forefathers, with no single hick up.:heh:
I'm no mathematician but what's the chance??? May be the chance is bigger that I'm strucked by lightning in my life:biggrin1:

Finn
11-27-2018, 08:10 PM
Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

Double:bump:

Ruderico
11-28-2018, 12:44 AM
I'm no anti-semite so if it was Jewish it was Jewish. But no sign of this.
Still a miracle when it came with the funnel beakers than it must be before 2700 BC infused......that's 4700 YBP, let's say my forefathers were on average 30 years old before they died, that's a chain of 157 forefathers, with no single hick up.:heh:
I'm no mathematician but what's the chance??? May be the chance is bigger that I'm strucked by lightning in my life:biggrin1:

Maybe at a time there were others, but wars and diseases killed off most lineages until the only ones that are currently known are those in Friesland? It was probably something very minor the whole time though. I guess our haplogroups are somewhat parallel in this regard, eventhough E-M123* seems mostly European today

Finn
11-28-2018, 01:12 PM
That late medieval Oldenzaal sample may be interesting; also since Oldenzaal is quite catholic. For myself it is interesting that 8 of the 180 (medieval) Oldenzaal samples were W5 as I saw in this research (https://www.oldenzaal.nl/sites/default/files/memento-mori-archeologisch-onderzoek-plechelmusplein-deel2.pdf). I don't see the E1b sample in there but they may have done more research.

I don't think Y-DNA follows religion....E-V22 as the Catholic DNA.... ;)

epoch
11-28-2018, 02:59 PM
Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Skippers went around in Friesland back then. Combined with the fact they were Catholics, a religious minority in the 17th century Frisia, could mean loyalty was based more on religion than on community. I've seen this a lot in genealogy, also with Mennonists. That could have provided a route where a non-local married in.

Mind you, these religious loyalties also created an exception for the rule that most people married in the their social status.

epoch
11-28-2018, 03:25 PM
I don't think Y-DNA follows religion....E-V22 as the Catholic DNA.... ;)

Marriage did follow religion. Especially is case of religious minorities such as 17th century Frisian Catholics.

Finn
11-28-2018, 04:20 PM
Marriage did follow religion. Especially is case of religious minorities such as 17th century Frisian Catholics.

Agree. There was even a kind of Frisian/ Groninger catholic skipper circuit, like a part of the same family was Amish like Groninger Oud Vlaming. Endogamy. But the connection between catholic Frisians and specific E-V22 isn’t clear to me yet. There are signs they were ‘deep Frisians’ their names (Haye, Fokke], their jobs skipper/farming, living in tiny villages....the catholic minority were more than a third of the populationin their heartland (Wartena, Warga).

http://hethooghiem.nl/Geschiedenis/KONINGVW.pdf

epoch
11-28-2018, 05:03 PM
Agree. There was even a kind of Frisian/ Groninger catholic skipper circuit, like a part of the same family was Amish like Groninger Oud Vlaming. Endogamy. But the connection between catholic Frisians and specific E-V22 isn’t clear to me yet. There are signs they were ‘deep Frisians’ their names (Haye, Fokke], their jobs skipper/farming, living in tiny villages....the catholic minority were more than a third of the populationin their heartland (Wartena, Warga).

http://hethooghiem.nl/Geschiedenis/KONINGVW.pdf

And if you can trace it back to early 17th century and the male lineage does not have an odd patronym the effect is basically gone because halfway the 16th century Catholicism wouldn't be such a oddity in Frisia. So I reckon, on second thought, that you can indeed rule that religious preference. But skippers do get around and do meet other skippers. In my family it was a constant factor which brought in other branches from other provinces.

Lupriac
11-28-2018, 05:21 PM
In the early 8th century the Frisian nobles came into increasing conflict with the Franks to their south, resulting in a series of wars in which the Frankish Empire eventually subjugated Frisia in 734. These wars benefited attempts by Anglo-Irish missionaries (which had begun with Saint Boniface) to convert the Frisian populace to Christianity, in which Saint Willibrord largely succeeded.

Finn
11-28-2018, 06:35 PM
And if you can trace it back to early 17th century and the male lineage does not have an odd patronym the effect is basically gone because halfway the 16th century Catholicism wouldn't be such a oddity in Frisia. So I reckon, on second thought, that you can indeed rule that religious preference. But skippers do get around and do meet other skippers. In my family it was a constant factor which brought in other branches from other provinces.

I see your point, later came mostly Westfalian Catholics to Friesland, but in these case it are stubborn Frisians that refused the reformation ;)

Jack Johnson
03-04-2019, 12:46 AM
Sorry but that is ridiculous. There are multiple bearers of Y-DNA E-V12, E-V13, E-V22, E-M123, and even E-M81 throughout the British Isles. Many of these subclades have TMRCA dating to the Bronze Age, Copper Age, and Neolithic. The Normans left practically no genetic impact on the general population of the British Isles, with the exception of the upper classes. The Normans were mainly a mixture of Norsemen and the descendants of Romanized Gauls. The idea that North Africans in Roman garrisons--that is to say if there were any at all or in a significant number in Roman Gaul--contributed to the ancestry of the Romano-Gauls (Celts) that later admixed with Norseman, resulting in that genetic legacy being transplanted by their Norman descendants to isolated pockets of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, the Netherlands, and even Sweden, is nothing short of absurd. Do we even have Phoenician DNA? How do we know it is because of them? The Phoenicians did not colonize places in the same way the Greeks did, meaning their genetic legacy would have had much less of an impact compared to their cultural impact or that of the Greeks. Many of these subclades have no relation to Jewish ones. We have no DNA from Roman settlements in France as far as I know, so how do we know what lineages they brought? The Jewish, Roman, Phoenician angle has always been the simplest explanation in a lot of these cases but as of late, ancient DNA/genetics is proving most of these elementary, amateurish explanations wrong.

Herr_Rudolph
08-14-2019, 03:07 AM
Sorry but that is ridiculous. There are multiple bearers of Y-DNA E-V12, E-V13, E-V22, E-M123, and even E-M81 throughout the British Isles. Many of these subclades have TMRCA dating to the Bronze Age, Copper Age, and Neolithic. The Normans left practically no genetic impact on the general population of the British Isles, with the exception of the upper classes. The Normans were mainly a mixture of Norsemen and the descendants of Romanized Gauls. The idea that North Africans in Roman garrisons--that is to say if there were any at all or in a significant number in Roman Gaul--contributed to the ancestry of the Romano-Gauls (Celts) that later admixed with Norseman, resulting in that genetic legacy being transplanted by their Norman descendants to isolated pockets of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, the Netherlands, and even Sweden, is nothing short of absurd. Do we even have Phoenician DNA? How do we know it is because of them? The Phoenicians did not colonize places in the same way the Greeks did, meaning their genetic legacy would have had much less of an impact compared to their cultural impact or that of the Greeks. Many of these subclades have no relation to Jewish ones. We have no DNA from Roman settlements in France as far as I know, so how do we know what lineages they brought? The Jewish, Roman, Phoenician angle has always been the simplest explanation in a lot of these cases but as of late, ancient DNA/genetics is proving most of these elementary, amateurish explanations wrong.

What late ancient DNA tests prove that E-V22 has been in Europe prior to the Jewish diaspora? I am hard pressed to find any online resources that show E-V22 being present in non-Jewish European populations. I’m not conradicting you, I just haven’t seen the evidence you have.