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Arnfried
06-22-2018, 07:19 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

Pylsteen
06-22-2018, 07:35 PM
Have you joined a haplogroup E project at FTDNA? They could probably tell more.

Finn
06-22-2018, 08:58 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

It's quite irritating through the years there is a constant relabeling, what's your number on FTDNA, what kind of markers do you have?

Biggest chance in Europe, especial Central Europe you are E-V13, otherwise E-V22 than we can shake hands....;)

Nive1526
06-22-2018, 10:16 PM
In the current ISOGG Tree, E1b1b1a1b1a3 is downstream of V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a) and defined by the SNP M35.2.
It has no equivalent in the yfull tree, where M35.2 is one of the haplogroup E-M35 markers. M35 and M35.2 is the same position, but a different allele. M35 = C, M35.2 = T.

ISOGG states:

The position of M35.2 is uncertain with respect to the positions of L241, L250, L251, L252, and L540.

All named above SNP's are subclades of V13, this means according to ISOGG, the position of M35.2 is unresolved downstream of V13, yet yfull puts it back to the ancestral level of M35. Both in the newest version.
To me, it seems like the whole marker isn't very informative, since it is put in very different positions and I wouldn't trust it beyond E-M35.

Arnfried
06-23-2018, 06:13 PM
Thanks for your responses.

I'm part of E-M35 project, but they can't classify me and suggest me a Big Y test; but this test is unfortunately really expensive for my modest budget.
So I bought yesterday the SNP's test for V-22, as it should be the most probable subclade I belong to. On the other hand, I have no idea how an E-V22 man reached Paris's area before the recent immigration... All my Y-ancestors (who wear my last name) were protestant as far as I can see. May be a really old Neolithic remnant?

misanthropy
06-23-2018, 06:23 PM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)

Hey, I have the exact thing. 23andme is E-M78, wegene is E1b1b1a1b1a3. I figured that’s just another way to write e1b1b1a1. Edit: I get it from my Yemeni paternal line, btw.

Arnfried
06-23-2018, 06:47 PM
Hey, I have the exact thing. 23andme is E-M78, wegene is E1b1b1a1b1a3. I figured that’s just another way to write e1b1b1a1. Edit: I get it from my Yemeni paternal line, btw.

It seems understandable for a Yemenite line :)
Fortunatelly, I'm not a poor lonesome V22 in (North) Western Europe (Hi Finn:beerchug:)

Finn
06-23-2018, 07:14 PM
It seems understandable for a Yemenite line :)
Fortunatelly, I'm not a poor lonesome V22 in (North) Western Europe (Hi Finn:beerchug:)

:beerchug: nope!! I'm wondering too: how it came in my Frisian paternal side.....

This website gives some clues:
http://e-v22.net

Riccardo
08-12-2018, 04:19 AM
Hi,

I'm really confused about my haplogroup.
According to FTDNA, I'm E-M35; I asked myself which subclade I'm part of. ALL my Y match are E-V13; but the predictor I found told me E-V22 (82%).
23andMe predicted E-M78; at the bottom of the page, they said E-M5021.
Wegene predicted me as E1b1b1a1b1a3~...

Which of them is the most accurate? I think E-M35 is the less specific, but I never heard about E1b1b1a1b1a3~.
Is this one the old name of V-22 or V-13?

Please help me!!!!:\:)



Hey Arnfried, do you have a GEDMATCH ID?

NetNomad
11-11-2018, 07:53 PM
E-V22+ was found in China apparently. As for Europe I think you're most likely a remnant of the Near Eastern Neolithic Farmers, who brought cereals (Wheat, Barley and Rye) along other crops, and domesticated animals (domesticated Cattle, Goats and Sheep) with them.

E-M78 was more Egypt/Northeast African-centric.

While E-M123 seemed to have been the dominant Neolithic Levantine E lineage.

How, E-V13 / E-V22 got to Europe is quite a mystery.

Tz85
11-12-2018, 11:57 PM
Indeed. Although this does not necessarily assert that all E men in the Natufians were under E-M123. I think most of them definitely are, but some lineages such as E-V22, E-V12 and others seem to be found in the Levant and Arabian peninsula as well, albeit in low numbers.

I am also quite interested in how did my E-V12 reach the Levant.

Probably Egyptians who joined Israel when they left with the Exodus.

Tz85
11-13-2018, 06:10 PM
I mean that's possible, but I think E-V12, E-V65 in the Levant is a more recent occurrence. 3-4000 years. We know a large multitude left Egypt with the Israelites to Canaan. Of course would of been E carriers.

drobbah
11-13-2018, 06:42 PM
E-V12 and even E-V32 can be found in the Levant (V32 pops up in Southern Levant) and Arabia.Their migrations were before AE civilization even existed

hartaisarlag
11-13-2018, 07:23 PM
I mean that's possible, but I think E-V12, E-V65 in the Levant is a more recent occurrence. 3-4000 years. We know a large multitude left Egypt with the Israelites to Canaan. Of course would of been E carriers.

We have no proof of this. My low-confidence guess is that it’s not *entirely made up*, but hypothesizing on the assumption of an Exodus event is ahistorical.

Tz85
11-13-2018, 10:01 PM
Their is plenty of evidence for the exodus. I'm not going to waste my time with idiotic statements.

hartaisarlag
11-13-2018, 11:41 PM
Their is plenty of evidence for the exodus. I'm not going to waste my time with idiotic statements.

I have a degree in Near Eastern languages + civilizations, and have worked in the field among Israeli archaeologists. I also would *love* for there to be evidence of an exodus from Egypt, but the mainstream consensus is that there’s not. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but there’s no cause to assume it did. Happy to hear interesting evidence to the contrary.

Tz85
11-14-2018, 12:51 AM
Jebel El Lawz and surrounding areas is proof enough. Your degree must not have helped you.

Agamemnon
11-14-2018, 01:58 AM
We have no proof of this. My low-confidence guess is that it’s not *entirely made up*, but hypothesizing on the assumption of an Exodus event is ahistorical.

Indeed, the origins of the Israelites (what some scholars would call the Proto-Israelites) are to be found in the local LBA Canaanite population of the Levant, not in a mass migration of presumably "Asiatic" refugees fleeing Egypt (which the Egyptian records apparently know nothing about). That being said, I also doubt that the story of the Exodus was, as you rightly said, "entirely made up", while the Biblical version contains a ton of anachronistic descriptions several important details strongly indicate some sort of familiarity with the situation Egypt found itself in between the MBA IIA and MBA IIC periods, details that could not have been made up during the Iron Age II and which certainly reflect an old local tradition or origin myth among a small group of NW Semitic migrants who left Egypt.

Likewise, several of the patriarchal stories are not totally baseless either, even though they have even more anachronistic material, in fact a careful analysis of the toponyms in the Levant clearly shows a difference between the coastal areas and the highlands of historical Judea-Samaria where the toponyms follow a pattern that is widespread in the areas associated with the Amorite kingdoms of ancient Syria (specifically the areas in Upper Mesopotamia and the Jazire region of Syria, areas strongly tied to the Abrahamic narrative) suggesting some form of migration from the north, this is bound to be tied to the MBA IIA-B transition. So here too, the Biblical narrative might reflect a considerably older (and specifically regional) tradition which was blown out of proportion.

What we are more or less sure of now though is that Iron Age II Jerusalem was not a "village" (in fact, it never was a village during the Bronze Age to begin with) and that the Biblical description of a United Monarchy might not be as far-fetched as some implied it was (though of course nowhere near the "empire" portrayed in the Bible). But this is another debate, which has a lot to do with Finkelstein's "Low Chronology".

All in all, while the Biblical narrative contains a lot of inaccurate, anachronistic, fantastic and downright exaggerated stuff, not all of it is as baseless and ahistorical as some scholars would like us to think it is.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.


Jebel El Lawz and surrounding areas is proof enough. Your degree must not have helped you.

Even Hoffmeier has issues with the Jabal al Lawz theory, and I seriously doubt anyone can accuse Hoffmeier of being an atheist quite frankly.

hartaisarlag
11-14-2018, 07:28 PM
I am interested as to could it have been a Hyksos king who was at the time of such exodus/event and it was buried from history because we do not know many things of the hyksos and they are obscure?

It’s not unlikely that the Exodus story is a composite memory of different aspects of the Egyptian-Levantine relationship throughout the MBA and LBA, including the reign and expulsion of the Hyksos, and the long shadow of Egyptian dominance in Canaan (which, curiously, the Hebrew Bible doesn’t reference as such once - save for the placename Mey Neftoah - even though it lasted until the 12th century). Similarly, Joshua probably preserves centuries’ worth of memories and legends about various Bronze Age conquests and razings, under a patina of accurate reference to 13th-12th century events (e.g. the destruction of Hazor).

Jack Johnson
11-26-2018, 07:56 AM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

Finn
11-26-2018, 10:02 AM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

Interesting Jack!

I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there. The last years I thought that E-V22 was brought into my Frisian ancestor by a raid of the Spanish army (in 1586).

But you bring the perspective of a Neolithic Farmer that brought E-V22 to NW Europe is at least something to think about.

On Eupedia Maciamo has figured out that people of the Megalith Funnelbeaker culoture had an African component in their DNA (see the Gokhem samples of Sweden). So was E-V22 (along other E-lines) among them?

This position could be strengthened by full gnome research.

Here you can see the Y-full branche of E-V22 I belong to E-PH2818, widespread in the middle east:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/

There are two obvious things (see the flags):
- I'm (Dutch flag) most close to a Palestine, the Levant was an important breeding ground of the neolithic evolution.
- A side branche is connected to Ireland and Wales, in the past also part of the Atlantic Megalith culture.

May be too far fetched, but the Neolithic Farmer could be the connection.

Still an important contra is: how did such a white raven in de DNA landscape of NW Europe survived for so long. Almost miraculous to me.....

Feel free to comment!

Finn
11-26-2018, 10:03 AM
sorry double posting!

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 10:27 AM
E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age

E-M81 has a TMRCA of 2800 years, so its certainly later than those periods



I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there

Does that make me a pink raven anywhere? ;)

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:43 PM
E-M81 has a TMRCA of 2800 years, so its certainly later than those periods




Does that make me a pink raven anywhere? ;)


Indeed! and I know some E Europeans who actually thought of themselves as "less" European after discovering they are under E-M35. We can find that E has entered Europe since at least 7000-8000 BCE:

27297

I must say Moe12 that when FTDNA stated in a certificate that my Y-DNA E-V22 was connected to the Bantu neolithic, I fronzed...I was suprised: what!? Because E-V22 isn't the first Y-DNA that is mostly combined with an outmost NW European auDNA . :biggrin1: Would be the same if the certicate told you that your DNA was part of the Anglo-Saxon migration, you would fronze too I guess....

@Ruderico, there are in the Northern Netherlands only two known families with E-V22, I guess you can say we are white or pink or yellow or....fil in rare ravens ;) In this respect South Europe has more diversity....

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:56 PM
Agreed. Especially that both of our haplogroups (E-V22 and E-V12) entered the Levant around 9500-9000 BCE, this is certainly from Neolithic farmers and your ancestors must have been quite ancient at Europe. Don't forget almost all of ancient European cities/settlements were built by E1b1b/G/T men.

That's why it seems saying "Oh my haplogroup E came from a Roman soldier from Italia or Balkan" is quite absurd since E have been for quite some time in Europe now and entered Europe with the neolithic revolution around 7000-8000 BCE.

Our haplogroups are quite common in Egypt as well, so we might be related to some Pharaoh, who knows! Hah. ;)

27298

Yeah ok. But I must be cautieus. Until now no neolithic farmer found in Northern Europe with E V22 or cousin E-V12.

And by the way rare haplo types face during time a botte neck. In my genealogie there was a few centuries ago already a bottle neck, so when this is seenover thousands of years!
Miracle!

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 01:57 PM
@Ruderico, there are in the Northern Netherlands only two known families with E-V22, I guess you can say we are white or pink or yellow or....fil in rare ravens ;) In this respect South Europe has more diversity....

It does of course, but E-M123* is very rare which is what I meant, despite being 18000 years old :)
It seems to be everywhere in Europe, but at residual levels, people have posted a few other finds here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15559-wrong-yDNA&p=502576&viewfull=1#post502576)

Finn
11-26-2018, 01:59 PM
Agreed. Especially that both of our haplogroups (E-V22 and E-V12) entered the Levant around 9500-9000 BCE, this is certainly from Neolithic farmers and your ancestors must have been quite ancient at Europe. Don't forget almost all of ancient European cities/settlements were built by E1b1b/G/T men.

That's why it seems saying "Oh my haplogroup E came from a Roman soldier from Italia or Balkan" is quite absurd since E have been for quite some time in Europe now and entered Europe with the neolithic revolution around 7000-8000 BCE.

Our haplogroups are quite common in Egypt as well, so we might be related to some Pharaoh, who knows! Hah. ;)

27298

By the way E-V13 is another story, E-V13 followed the inland European route.

E-V22 is mostly found along the sea route in the Mediteranean.

See:
http://e-v22.net/descendants/

Finn
11-26-2018, 02:06 PM
It does of course, but E-M123* is very rare which is what I meant, despite being 18000 years old :)
It seems to be everywhere in Europe, but at residual levels, people have posted a few other finds here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15559-wrong-yDNA&p=502576&viewfull=1#post502576)

Ok but E-V22, EPH218 is more modest of age 8000 YBP, ok old enough but still....
see:
http://e-v22.net/origin/

Ruderico
11-26-2018, 02:20 PM
Ok but E-V22, EPH218 is more modest of age 8000 YBP, ok old enough but still....
see:
http://e-v22.net/origin/

Well to be fair MorleyDNA predicted me to be PF4428 which is "only" 10000yo, and I do have a FTDNA match of a Brazilian of Portuguese descent who is also PF4428 - we also share a surname, although it's really, really common - so it's probably correct. However all of my matches are men of Iberian descent (except one Norwegian) so maybe it's not as rare in NW Iberia as yours is in the northern Netherlands ;)

Bruma
11-26-2018, 03:40 PM
Well to be fair MorleyDNA predicted me to be PF4428 which is "only" 10000yo, and I do have a FTDNA match of a Brazilian of Portuguese descent who is also PF4428 - we also share a surname, although it's really, really common - so it's probably correct. However all of my matches are men of Iberian descent (except one Norwegian) so maybe it's not as rare in NW Iberia as yours is in the northern Netherlands ;)

My haplogroup is incredibly rare I only have 2 matches one Spaniard and a Calabrian

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 12:56 PM
My haplogroup is incredibly rare I only have 2 matches one Spaniard and a Calabrian

Cool, what's the TMRCA?

drobbah
11-27-2018, 01:04 PM
By the way E-V13 is another story, E-V13 followed the inland European route.

E-V22 is mostly found along the sea route in the Mediteranean.

See:
http://e-v22.net/descendants/
Are you the dutch V22 sample on yfull?

Govan
11-27-2018, 01:08 PM
Frankly I think we need more ancient samples from Europe and elsewhere to come in. I personally believe more research into the subclades of E needs to be done. If there was as much research conducted on E as there is on R1a or R1b, we would probably have a lot more answers to questions we currently have. The same applies to other rare y dna haplogroups found in Europe such as A, C, H, L, T, Q, J1 and even J2. It seems to me that C and A were the y dna of the first Homo sapiens into Europe, along with F, BT, CT, K2a, and a few others. E-V13, along with E-M123, E-V12, E-V22 and possibly E-V65 and E-M81, were haplogroups dispersed by Neolithic farmers, or brought to Europe through later migrations during the Chalcolithic or the Bronze Age. It is also a possibility that some of these haplogroups were brought to Europe in the Mesolithic. I recall reading about an E-V65 sample found in a Basque individual. We also have mtdna U6 clusters in Finland and E-M81 has been found in Scotland and Ireland. I also found one E-M81 individual on the y-dna E-M35 project, whose y-line goes back to an Erik Andersson b.1781, from Trollhättan, Sweden, so there is definitely more to the story than just muh Jews, muh Phoenicians, or muh Roman gladiators.

:lol: You think there have been no British and German migration into the kingdom Sweden (Finland was part of Sweden untill 1809)?

For Ireland and Scotland we know it's from the Normans.

EV13 is Neolithic. Not sure about EV22. Most Ev22 in Europe could descend from Jews, and/or Phoenician/Levantine traders.

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:13 PM
Are you the dutch V22 sample on yfull?

Yes indeed.

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:14 PM
. Not sure about EV22. Most Ev22 in Europe could descend from Jews, and/or Phoenician/Levantine traders.

My Y DNA comes from the heart of Friesland, no connection with Jews (is researched) nor with Levantine traders.....

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:15 PM
Cool, what's the TMRCA?

Time Most Recent Common Ancestor.

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Time Most Recent Common Ancestor.

Yes, I was aking what was his haplogroup's TMRCA :)

Govan
11-27-2018, 01:20 PM
Interesting Jack!

I 'm a E-V22 from Northern Netherlands. E-V22 are white ravens there. The last years I thought that E-V22 was brought into my Frisian ancestor by a raid of the Spanish army (in 1586).

But you bring the perspective of a Neolithic Farmer that brought E-V22 to NW Europe is at least something to think about.

On Eupedia Maciamo has figured out that people of the Megalith Funnelbeaker culoture had an African component in their DNA (see the Gokhem samples of Sweden). So was E-V22 (along other E-lines) among them?

This position could be strengthened by full gnome research.

Here you can see the Y-full branche of E-V22 I belong to E-PH2818, widespread in the middle east:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2818/

There are two obvious things (see the flags):
- I'm (Dutch flag) most close to a Palestine, the Levant was an important breeding ground of the neolithic evolution.
- A side branche is connected to Ireland and Wales, in the past also part of the Atlantic Megalith culture.

May be too far fetched, but the Neolithic Farmer could be the connection.

Still an important contra is: how did such a white raven in de DNA landscape of NW Europe survived for so long. Almost miraculous to me.....

Feel free to comment!

Have you trace back genealogically your father line?

I mean E1b1b Irish and and Scots trace their genealogy and found out their earliest ancestor was a Norman knight.

And Norman knights do sometimes descend from E1b1b Christian missionaries or Roman calvaries from south of the Mediterranean.

In your case I could think of a Jewish line, via Northern Germany Hanseatic or Holland. Could also be just an EV22 from the Neolithic times (via the Balkans).

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:23 PM
Finn just posted that there is no known Jewish connection, the haplogroup is nearly 6000 years old, it could have arrived a long time ago

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 01:28 PM
Overall, E-M78 (E1b1b1a1 in 2017) and E-M81 (E1b1b1b1a in 2017) both constitute about 4.0% each, with a further 1.0% from Haplogroup E-M123 (E1b1b1b2a1) and 1.0% from unknown subclades of E-M96.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Y-Chromosome_haplogroups

The overwhelming majority of those E-M123 are M34, and I'm not. E-M123* is rare, only 6 have been reported in yDNA studies of Portugal so far, out of at thousands of individuals. Don't really care about other E-M35 subclades, they are very distantly connected to mine as the TMRCA is about 24000 years

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:29 PM
Yes, I was aking what was his haplogroup's TMRCA :)

hahahah :doh:

Finn
11-27-2018, 01:56 PM
Have you trace back genealogically your father line?

I mean E1b1b Irish and and Scots trace their genealogy and found out their earliest ancestor was a Norman knight.

And Norman knights do sometimes descend from E1b1b Christian missionaries or Roman calvaries from south of the Mediterranean.

In your case I could think of a Jewish line, via Northern Germany Hanseatic or Holland. Could also be just an EV22 from the Neolithic times (via the Balkans).

Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Finn
11-27-2018, 03:27 PM
@moe12 many thanks!! I will research....

Ruderico
11-27-2018, 03:39 PM
I actually found that the only ancient E-M123* sample found (E-Y31991, which is just upstream of my PF4428) is from a Scythian who lived some 2800 years ago in modern northeastern Kazakhstan. Possibly my line isn't descended from his (eventhough the Scythian-descended Alani did settle in Portugal), but it is still a cool find/link

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#8/51.210/78.025 DA19

Finn
11-27-2018, 05:36 PM
Much welcome. Also I just remembered a V22 sample found in Germany since around 1650-1550 YBP (Years Before Present). Quite interesting.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=48.29341081750362%2C11.966550251771537&z=9

Thanks, last one looks Roman!

I guess the Oldenzaal one is E-V13 not sure....but biggest chance. E-V13 is less seldom in Northern Europe than E-V22.

Pylsteen
11-27-2018, 05:36 PM
@moe12 many thanks!! I will research....

That late medieval Oldenzaal sample may be interesting; also since Oldenzaal is quite catholic. For myself it is interesting that 8 of the 180 (medieval) Oldenzaal samples were W5 as I saw in this research (https://www.oldenzaal.nl/sites/default/files/memento-mori-archeologisch-onderzoek-plechelmusplein-deel2.pdf). I don't see the E1b sample in there but they may have done more research.

Govan
11-27-2018, 05:57 PM
Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

Finn
11-27-2018, 08:10 PM
Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

I'm no anti-semite so if it was Jewish it was Jewish. But no sign of this.
Still a miracle when it came with the funnel beakers than it must be before 2700 BC infused......that's 4700 YBP, let's say my forefathers were on average 30 years old before they died, that's a chain of 157 forefathers, with no single hick up.:heh:
I'm no mathematician but what's the chance??? May be the chance is bigger that I'm strucked by lightning in my life:biggrin1:

Finn
11-27-2018, 08:10 PM
Fair enough. Ik zie dat je niet joods bent, maar altijd beweren mensen dat ze dat niet zijn you know :eyebrows:. In your case, if you really wonder you'd have to seek everywhere close yDNA matches. A Neolithic route is fairly possible. Once a lineage reach a community, unless the man bearers have no children, the lineage keeps through an unbroken chain.

Double:bump:

Ruderico
11-28-2018, 12:44 AM
I'm no anti-semite so if it was Jewish it was Jewish. But no sign of this.
Still a miracle when it came with the funnel beakers than it must be before 2700 BC infused......that's 4700 YBP, let's say my forefathers were on average 30 years old before they died, that's a chain of 157 forefathers, with no single hick up.:heh:
I'm no mathematician but what's the chance??? May be the chance is bigger that I'm strucked by lightning in my life:biggrin1:

Maybe at a time there were others, but wars and diseases killed off most lineages until the only ones that are currently known are those in Friesland? It was probably something very minor the whole time though. I guess our haplogroups are somewhat parallel in this regard, eventhough E-M123* seems mostly European today

Finn
11-28-2018, 01:12 PM
That late medieval Oldenzaal sample may be interesting; also since Oldenzaal is quite catholic. For myself it is interesting that 8 of the 180 (medieval) Oldenzaal samples were W5 as I saw in this research (https://www.oldenzaal.nl/sites/default/files/memento-mori-archeologisch-onderzoek-plechelmusplein-deel2.pdf). I don't see the E1b sample in there but they may have done more research.

I don't think Y-DNA follows religion....E-V22 as the Catholic DNA.... ;)

epoch
11-28-2018, 02:59 PM
Yes back tot the 17th century, skippers in a place called Wartena (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warten). That's in the center of Friesland, until the 19th century the traffic went only by waterways!

They belonged to an in Friesland tiny community of Catholics. Jews came in about 1650 and then to the Frisian tiny cities, not the tiny villages.... Ans I guess it would not be logical to convert to Catholicism as a convinced Jew. By the way research on Jewish E-V22 lines were dead end street for me....

Not a place, or community, were you get easily get acces as an 'outsider', no urban Amsterdam!:biggrin1:

Skippers went around in Friesland back then. Combined with the fact they were Catholics, a religious minority in the 17th century Frisia, could mean loyalty was based more on religion than on community. I've seen this a lot in genealogy, also with Mennonists. That could have provided a route where a non-local married in.

Mind you, these religious loyalties also created an exception for the rule that most people married in the their social status.

epoch
11-28-2018, 03:25 PM
I don't think Y-DNA follows religion....E-V22 as the Catholic DNA.... ;)

Marriage did follow religion. Especially is case of religious minorities such as 17th century Frisian Catholics.

Finn
11-28-2018, 04:20 PM
Marriage did follow religion. Especially is case of religious minorities such as 17th century Frisian Catholics.

Agree. There was even a kind of Frisian/ Groninger catholic skipper circuit, like a part of the same family was Amish like Groninger Oud Vlaming. Endogamy. But the connection between catholic Frisians and specific E-V22 isn’t clear to me yet. There are signs they were ‘deep Frisians’ their names (Haye, Fokke], their jobs skipper/farming, living in tiny villages....the catholic minority were more than a third of the populationin their heartland (Wartena, Warga).

http://hethooghiem.nl/Geschiedenis/KONINGVW.pdf

epoch
11-28-2018, 05:03 PM
Agree. There was even a kind of Frisian/ Groninger catholic skipper circuit, like a part of the same family was Amish like Groninger Oud Vlaming. Endogamy. But the connection between catholic Frisians and specific E-V22 isn’t clear to me yet. There are signs they were ‘deep Frisians’ their names (Haye, Fokke], their jobs skipper/farming, living in tiny villages....the catholic minority were more than a third of the populationin their heartland (Wartena, Warga).

http://hethooghiem.nl/Geschiedenis/KONINGVW.pdf

And if you can trace it back to early 17th century and the male lineage does not have an odd patronym the effect is basically gone because halfway the 16th century Catholicism wouldn't be such a oddity in Frisia. So I reckon, on second thought, that you can indeed rule that religious preference. But skippers do get around and do meet other skippers. In my family it was a constant factor which brought in other branches from other provinces.

Finn
11-28-2018, 06:35 PM
And if you can trace it back to early 17th century and the male lineage does not have an odd patronym the effect is basically gone because halfway the 16th century Catholicism wouldn't be such a oddity in Frisia. So I reckon, on second thought, that you can indeed rule that religious preference. But skippers do get around and do meet other skippers. In my family it was a constant factor which brought in other branches from other provinces.

I see your point, later came mostly Westfalian Catholics to Friesland, but in these case it are stubborn Frisians that refused the reformation ;)

Jack Johnson
03-04-2019, 12:46 AM
Sorry but that is ridiculous. There are multiple bearers of Y-DNA E-V12, E-V13, E-V22, E-M123, and even E-M81 throughout the British Isles. Many of these subclades have TMRCA dating to the Bronze Age, Copper Age, and Neolithic. The Normans left practically no genetic impact on the general population of the British Isles, with the exception of the upper classes. The Normans were mainly a mixture of Norsemen and the descendants of Romanized Gauls. The idea that North Africans in Roman garrisons--that is to say if there were any at all or in a significant number in Roman Gaul--contributed to the ancestry of the Romano-Gauls (Celts) that later admixed with Norseman, resulting in that genetic legacy being transplanted by their Norman descendants to isolated pockets of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, the Netherlands, and even Sweden, is nothing short of absurd. Do we even have Phoenician DNA? How do we know it is because of them? The Phoenicians did not colonize places in the same way the Greeks did, meaning their genetic legacy would have had much less of an impact compared to their cultural impact or that of the Greeks. Many of these subclades have no relation to Jewish ones. We have no DNA from Roman settlements in France as far as I know, so how do we know what lineages they brought? The Jewish, Roman, Phoenician angle has always been the simplest explanation in a lot of these cases but as of late, ancient DNA/genetics is proving most of these elementary, amateurish explanations wrong.

Herr_Rudolph
08-14-2019, 03:07 AM
Sorry but that is ridiculous. There are multiple bearers of Y-DNA E-V12, E-V13, E-V22, E-M123, and even E-M81 throughout the British Isles. Many of these subclades have TMRCA dating to the Bronze Age, Copper Age, and Neolithic. The Normans left practically no genetic impact on the general population of the British Isles, with the exception of the upper classes. The Normans were mainly a mixture of Norsemen and the descendants of Romanized Gauls. The idea that North Africans in Roman garrisons--that is to say if there were any at all or in a significant number in Roman Gaul--contributed to the ancestry of the Romano-Gauls (Celts) that later admixed with Norseman, resulting in that genetic legacy being transplanted by their Norman descendants to isolated pockets of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, the Netherlands, and even Sweden, is nothing short of absurd. Do we even have Phoenician DNA? How do we know it is because of them? The Phoenicians did not colonize places in the same way the Greeks did, meaning their genetic legacy would have had much less of an impact compared to their cultural impact or that of the Greeks. Many of these subclades have no relation to Jewish ones. We have no DNA from Roman settlements in France as far as I know, so how do we know what lineages they brought? The Jewish, Roman, Phoenician angle has always been the simplest explanation in a lot of these cases but as of late, ancient DNA/genetics is proving most of these elementary, amateurish explanations wrong.

What late ancient DNA tests prove that E-V22 has been in Europe prior to the Jewish diaspora? I am hard pressed to find any online resources that show E-V22 being present in non-Jewish European populations. I’m not conradicting you, I just haven’t seen the evidence you have.

azdahak
01-16-2022, 03:39 AM
hey guys i want to know my exact y dna, but i dont know which one i should do

i already did an my heritage test, and used the myheritage Raw data to morleydna which predicted my ydna as E1b1b1a1b7 (E-L250) and then i went to cladefinder which gave my E-M123(without E-M34) as my Y-DNA.

So i want to do a Y-Dna test, which i can also add to Y-Tree. But i am really new, my guess is that i would take a FTDNA Y-test.

What is your guys opinion, you probably have more experience than me

and can somebody explain the new diversity mode from the heatmap on phyleographer from cladefinder?

Imesmouden
01-16-2022, 01:42 PM
hey guys i want to know my exact y dna, but i dont know which one i should do

i already did an my heritage test, and used the myheritage Raw data to morleydna which predicted my ydna as E1b1b1a1b7 (E-L250) and then i went to cladefinder which gave my E-M123(without E-M34) as my Y-DNA.

So i want to do a Y-Dna test, which i can also add to Y-Tree. But i am really new, my guess is that i would take a FTDNA Y-test.

What is your guys opinion, you probably have more experience than me

and can somebody explain the new diversity mode from the heatmap on phyleographer from cladefinder?


Take a Nebula WGS test , you can use a coupon code to reduce the price to 269$ = MYTRUEANCESTRY10

capsian
01-16-2022, 02:30 PM
hey guys i want to know my exact y dna, but i dont know which one i should do

i already did an my heritage test, and used the myheritage Raw data to morleydna which predicted my ydna as E1b1b1a1b7 (E-L250) and then i went to cladefinder which gave my E-M123(without E-M34) as my Y-DNA.

So i want to do a Y-Dna test, which i can also add to Y-Tree. But i am really new, my guess is that i would take a FTDNA Y-test.

What is your guys opinion, you probably have more experience than me

and can somebody explain the new diversity mode from the heatmap on phyleographer from cladefinder?

Take test a WGS Nebula or dante labs or Yseq

azdahak
01-16-2022, 05:17 PM
is it always 300$? or will it go back to 999$ if i wait a month(to get my salary)?

and if i want to upload it on ytree id have to pay 49$ for the ydna and 25$ for the mtdna, am i correct?

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 05:44 PM
is it always 300$? or will it go back to 999$ if i wait a month(to get my salary)?

and if i want to upload it on ytree id have to pay 49$ for the ydna and 25$ for the mtdna, am i correct?

YSEQ tend to have very stable prices although their WGS400 is 15x depth only. I'm not sure Nebula ever was really USD999 for the 30x. I think you are probably safe waiting a month but can't promise! Just make sure you don't accidentally order the 'Basic' Nebula test which is useless 0.4x.

azdahak
01-16-2022, 05:57 PM
so i dont know the scientific meaning behing 15x and 30x depth, but i guess it means it looks at more peaces of the dna, if im correct

so if yseq is 15x for 400$ and nebula is 30x for 300$, isnt nebula the obvious more qualitative and priceworthy choice?

I think, its because nebula is a bigger company, thats why they offer much better attractive pricing, and yseq i guess is a much smaller group, i guess? i know it has nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to say my thoughts and see if the nebula choice is the best

azdahak
01-16-2022, 05:59 PM
and if i want to upload nebula on ytree id have to pay 49$ for the ydna and 25$ for the mtdna, am i correct?

or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ir4...=EvaKuttichova

at minue 7:00 she says that it costs 45$ for both y and mtdna to transfer to ytree, so its cheaper because nebula cooperates with ytree i guess?

another question, will i also get results per map like she does in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uSV...=LifeWithVicki ?

because the first video doesnt show dna results per map

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 06:06 PM
so i dont know the scientific meaning behing 15x and 30x depth, but i guess it means it looks at more peaces of the dna, if im correct

so if yseq is 15x for 400$ and nebula is 30x for 300$, isnt nebula the obvious more qualitative and priceworthy choice?

I think, its because nebula is a bigger company, thats why they offer much better attractive pricing, and yseq i guess is a much smaller group, i guess? i know it has nothing to do with the topic, just wanted to say my thoughts and see if the nebula choice is the best

The numbers specify how many times each position has been read, they need to look several times to get a consensus result. I use the 15x in my project and its fine even for the Y chromosome.

Nebula sell a subscription, do a pretend checkout and you will see the details. You have to purchase one month and then later cancel it. I think you have to pay at least one month (I did when I bought mine). That is why their headline price is cheap, even if some cancel some will pay for the full subscription so that subsidizes the base price. YSEQ don't have a subscription, you get it all straight away and that's it. But their test is focussed on ancestry/genealogy not health.

The default checkout price for the 299 dollar Nebula test is ... 499 dollars.

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 06:09 PM
and if i want to upload nebula on ytree id have to pay 49$ for the ydna and 25$ for the mtdna, am i correct?

or in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ir4...=EvaKuttichova

at minue 7:00 she says that it costs 45$ for both y and mtdna to transfer to ytree, so its cheaper because nebula cooperates with ytree i guess?

another question, will i also get results per map like she does in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uSV...=LifeWithVicki ?

because the first video doesnt show dna results per map

If you order the Y chromosome analysis the mtDNA is free:

— Upgrade "Y>Mt" ... $0 usd 1
1 ? Free Mt analysis is available in your personal account only after payment for the Y

capsian
01-16-2022, 07:18 PM
YSEQ tend to have very stable prices although their WGS400 is 15x depth only. I'm not sure Nebula ever was really USD999 for the 30x. I think you are probably safe waiting a month but can't promise! Just make sure you don't accidentally order the 'Basic' Nebula test which is useless 0.4x.

No Nubula Just 299 USD

azdahak
01-16-2022, 07:54 PM
I want to find out more about my ancestry than health, so the YSEQ sounds better, but i read at https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/which_ancestry_dna_test_to_choose.shtml#Whole_geno me

"YSEQ's WGS400 is the cheapest test ($399/€335) alongside Sequencing.com. It covers 400 base long reads specifically designed for GENEALOGY RESEARCHERS. Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups are provided, but otherwise no reports."

So YSEQ doesnt help me find out more about my ancestry, unless i am a genetecist or studied Biology/DNA, am i correct on this ?

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 08:19 PM
I want to find out more about my ancestry than health, so the YSEQ sounds better, but i read at https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/which_ancestry_dna_test_to_choose.shtml#Whole_geno me

"YSEQ's WGS400 is the cheapest test ($399/€335) alongside Sequencing.com. It covers 400 base long reads specifically designed for GENEALOGY RESEARCHERS. Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups are provided, but otherwise no reports."

So YSEQ doesnt help me find out more about my ancestry, unless i am a genetecist or studied Biology/DNA, am i correct on this ?

YSEQ gives you a lot of detailed reports mostly on the Y and mtDNA but these are technical reports on SNPs. The historical/geographical interpretation is more what happens on YFull (and here!). There is a sample reports directory here:

https://genomes.yseq.net/WGS/400SE/16672/

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 08:20 PM
Read the summary report first:

https://genomes.yseq.net/WGS/400SE/16672/16672_result_summary.txt

Imesmouden
01-16-2022, 08:20 PM
I want to find out more about my ancestry than health, so the YSEQ sounds better, but i read at https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/which_ancestry_dna_test_to_choose.shtml#Whole_geno me

"YSEQ's WGS400 is the cheapest test ($399/€335) alongside Sequencing.com. It covers 400 base long reads specifically designed for GENEALOGY RESEARCHERS. Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups are provided, but otherwise no reports."

So YSEQ doesnt help me find out more about my ancestry, unless i am a genetecist or studied Biology/DNA, am i correct on this ?


Nebula results quality are much better , i have many examples of nebula results compared to yseq

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 08:25 PM
Nebula results quality are much better , i have many examples of nebula results compared to yseq

I've done 30x WGS at both and found there was nothing in it really. At the moment the new WGS400 is only available at 15x and that may miss a SNP or two that you wanted (pretty rare though). Can you give us more specific information about your experiences? There are many ways to compare sequencing tests. For example I like to examine how many no-calls YFull find. If you test with multiple labs YFull have a comparison tab that shows the raw statistics for each one side by side. Perhaps if you have done both you can post a screenshot of the YFull comparison tab?

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 08:50 PM
Here is my YFull comparison page, column 2 is my YSEQ WGSx30 and column 5 is my Nebula WGSx30. Very similar, if anything YSEQ was marginally better.

48061

azdahak
01-16-2022, 08:57 PM
Ok im gonna go with Nebula then, cause i looked over the sample reports you sent, and i couldnt do or understand anything with it :D

azdahak
01-16-2022, 09:02 PM
my only question left is, if i pay for 1 month the nebula subscription, does it mean i have only access on my ytree of Yfull for this paid month? Cause the only thing the subscription is gonna get me, is to be able to add my ydna on the ytree as far as i understood?

MacUalraig
01-16-2022, 09:48 PM
The subscription relates to the medical reports Nebula give you and is unconnected with the link to YFull or the YFull fee which goes direct to YFull after they finish analysing your Y SNPs.

azdahak
01-17-2022, 04:01 AM
oh ok, well thanks for the help guys, appreciate it, i ordered the nebula test, i will share my results with you in a few months hopefully

azdahak
05-06-2022, 11:20 PM
Guys my Nebula Results just came, i had to transfer them to Yfull first, i should get "Preliminary results" in the next few hours, but the"Full deep ancestry analysis will take several days".

azdahak
05-08-2022, 01:11 PM
It came in, my ID is YF103547, i am listet at the top and stand alone there,does that have any meaning? And it also seems to be the oldest, if i dont interpreted that wrong

Farroukh
05-08-2022, 01:36 PM
Your branch preliminary labeled as E-M123*:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M123/

Later you terminal current SNP will be known. Also fill your profile with ancestral language and province. You can do it in your profile.

Ruderico
05-08-2022, 01:50 PM
It came in, my ID is YF103547, i am listet at the top and stand alone there,does that have any meaning? And it also seems to be the oldest, if i dont interpreted that wrong

Oh wow, you're the new M123* individual? That's fascinating, me and another member are under the Y31991 branch, none of us were expecting someone from eastern Turkey to be were you currently are at, we were definitely expecting a basal clade to show in the Levant, not so far up north. This haplogroup keeps getting weirder and weirder.

azdahak
05-08-2022, 03:41 PM
Yes thats me :D, but why does my mine look so isolated ?everybody is part of the Y31991 Branch, except me, being directly under E-M123, does it have a specific reason? Or will i get later a more refinded result? Like Farroukh said, the terminal current SNP Thing ( sry im not as educated as you are in this matter)

Ruderico
05-08-2022, 04:17 PM
Yes thats me :D, but why does my mine look so isolated ?everybody is part of the Y31991 Branch, except me, being directly under E-M123, does it have a specific reason? Or will i get later a more refinded result? Like Farroukh said, the terminal current SNP Thing ( sry im not as educated as you are in this matter)
Welcome, I'm glad you made it here :) Just for curiosity, are your paternal ancestors Turkish, Kurdish or Armenian speakers?



As for your result I can't say for sure, you might belong to a nearly extinct branch, we'll have to wait.

In yfull M123 branches straight into Y31991 and M34 (you're probably negative for both), but in FTDNA there's a clade parallel to Y31991 (named FGC62222 in FTDNA) labelled FT179548. FT179548 and FGC62222/Y31991 share a common node coded FT20896 which doesn't exist in yfull. FT20896 is parallel to the much more successful and common M34 branch which is widespread around the Mediterranean. I'm guessing FT179548 is your branch, but it might not be.

Edit: made a quick and dirty tree
https://i.postimg.cc/J790YkKd/M123.png


A few years ago there were two studies in which individuals belonging to our macro-clade (positive for M123, but negative for M34 and possibly Y31991) were found: one was a Scythian from NE Kazakhstan dated to ~750BC, and the others were all ~1000BC Swat Valley individuals (northern Pakistan), likely Indo-Aryan or Indo-Iranian speakers. You might be descended from this branch. Perhaps. Whether this was because of a migration from the steppes to the South Caucasus, or because your specific branch remained there whereas they moved into the steppes I have no idea, and I don't think there's a way to know yet. That said I suspect that, had your branch been descended from these steppe individuals (possibly later assimilated in the steppes by Turkic groups), your branch would have been more common given how successful Turkic migrations were. However the opposite happens, it's extremely rare, you're like one of a kind.

If your branch is indeed under FT179548 (which is uncertain), and never made it to the steppes (another uncertainty), then I guess it's possible you're a remainder of the ancient groups that moved north from the Levant in the neolithic, your branch remaining somewhere in Turkey/Armenia/etc whereas others stayed in the Middle East, and others went to Europe (Y134104).


Finally there have been plenty of ancient studies focusing on ancient Levant (usually south Levant) and no M123+ M34- individuals have been found. My suspicion is that our branch was further north, maybe closer to Turkey or somewhere near your region, but as you can guess this is highly speculative.

Velislav
05-08-2022, 04:47 PM
Yes thats me :D, but why does my mine look so isolated ?everybody is part of the Y31991 Branch, except me, being directly under E-M123, does it have a specific reason? Or will i get later a more refinded result? Like Farroukh said, the terminal current SNP Thing ( sry im not as educated as you are in this matter)

Hello! We spoke on Yfull recently :) Congratulations for your results. As Ruderico said, you might be related to the parallel branch of E-Y31991 which appears so far in some Indo-Iranian ancient groups but no other living individuals. Or the admins are yet to assign you to the tree.

Farroukh
05-08-2022, 05:30 PM
azdahak, are you related to Mîrak?

Farroukh
05-08-2022, 05:36 PM
Can You post here your Y-STR results?
I guess you related to Mirak tribe and I'd like to check it by comparing your Y-YSTRs with E-M35 project database.
Also join to E-M35 project at Yfull.com

azdahak
05-08-2022, 05:56 PM
No Farroukh, i dont know someone named Mirak

One Question Ruderiko " Whether this was because of a migration from the steppes to the South Caucasus, or because your specific branch remained there whereas they moved into the steppes I have no idea,"

What do you mean "remained there....they moved into the steppes" ? I thought they moved to the south caucasus and not steppes ? Which way was the migration now? Sry im confused i have to ask, wether i seem dumb or not :D

My Paternal Line is Kurdish

Well i can also add, that on mytrueancestry, my most and longest snp corresponding deepdive matches are from alans and amorites, amorite having a bigger part of my deepdive than alans, but alans having more and longer snp chain than amorite

So basically if you would interpretate it, if i can, that i first was an alan and then intesnily mixed with amorites maybe ? but that being said from a very unproffesional rather primitve understanding of the matter :D

And the ancient Alan DNA Match with the longest SNP Chain and most SNPs, than every other ancient DNA Match, is from Jarkutan Bactria-Margiana Uzbekistan.
I dont know if that information is helping

Good to see you again Velislav :D

Ruderico
05-08-2022, 06:27 PM
No Farroukh, i dont know someone named Mirak

One Question Ruderiko " Whether this was because of a migration from the steppes to the South Caucasus, or because your specific branch remained there whereas they moved into the steppes I have no idea,"

What do you mean "remained there....they moved into the steppes" ? I thought they moved to the south caucasus and not steppes ? Which way was the migration now? Sry im confused i have to ask, wether i seem dumb or not :D

My Paternal Line is Kurdish

Well i can also add, that on mytrueancestry, my most and longest snp corresponding deepdive matches are from alans and amorites, amorite having a bigger part of my deepdive than alans, but alans having more and longer snp chain than amorite

So basically if you would interpretate it, if i can, that i first was an alan and then intesnily mixed with amorites maybe ? but that being said from a very unproffesional rather primitve understanding of the matter :D

And the ancient Alan DNA Match with the longest SNP Chain and most SNPs, than every other ancient DNA Match, is from Jarkutan Bactria-Margiana Uzbekistan.
I dont know if that information is helping

Good to see you again Velislav :D

Mytrueancestry is, well, quite dubious to put it mildly. But in any case they look at autosomal DNA, this is specifically about the male line (yDNA) which is completely independent from one's general genetic profile and why it oftens tells you next to nothing about one's ethnic origins.


Let's assume that the Scythian man, the Swat Valley clan, and yourself belong to E-FT179548 - which we don't even know for sure, but we'll play along.

FT179548 is likely extremely old, probably older than 12000 years old since Y31991 is ~11000 years old and has less SNPs in FTDNA Big-Y Block Tree. This means that, while it's possible that you shared ancestors with those ancient individuals until much more recently, it's also possible your specific terminal clade and theirs split thousands, and thousands of years ago.

If the first scenario is true, then it's your clade could have moved into your area with those steppe individuals (or rather their descendants).
If not, then the migration towards the steppe did not include your ancestors, but rather their cousins, meaning your branch stayed south of the Caucasus/East of the Aegean (depends on their route) whereas the others moved away and were eventually incorporated into those Indo-European-speaking tribes of Central Asia.


Farroukh mentioned the Mirak tribe in E-M35 project, that's a really interesting possibility as well, even if the connection is too distant for there to be recent records/memory. At least that's a lot closer than looking at some neolithic connection, which is what we've been doing for years and is beyond frustrating.

Farroukh
05-08-2022, 06:34 PM
Bra, post here your Y111 results. We can not say something new without additional information.
Your Y111 is in your profile at Yfull

azdahak
05-08-2022, 07:42 PM
Farroukh i have no idea where y111 result is, i found nothing

do you mean str results? There is written that my str results are still in progress and that the manual verfication is still in progress and that loci is not available

capsian
05-08-2022, 08:52 PM
Bra, post here your Y111 results. We can not say something new without additional information.
Your Y111 is in your profile at Yfull

his sample new he is cant see his Y-STR is need 2 month to see Y-STR

capsian
05-08-2022, 08:53 PM
Farroukh i have no idea where y111 result is, i found nothing

do you mean str results? There is written that my str results are still in progress and that the manual verfication is still in progress and that loci is not available

you should waiting 2 month

Farroukh
05-09-2022, 11:36 AM
I assume azdahak's Y-STRs will be close to the haplotype of Mirak (#172682), an Armenian from Dersim/Turkey:
14 25 15 11 14-17 11 12 12 13 11 31 16 9-9 11 11 28 14 19 33 14-16-16-16 10 11 19-23 15 14 19 19 33-35 14 10 10 8 15-15 7 10 10 8 12 9 0 24-24 21 11 12 12 16 7 11 27 18 15 13 13 14 10 12 10 11

Other E-M123* (M34-) lines from E-M35 Project:

256116 Austria E-M123 12 24 15 10 13-19 11 12 12 13 11 30 15 9-9 11 11 27 14 20 31 15-15-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 14 17 19 32-34 12 10
173386 Yousef Abdul-Munem, 1190 - 1241 Jordan E-M123 14 25 13 10 14-18 11 12 14 14 12 31 16 8-9 11 11 27 14 21 35 14-14-16-17 10 11 19-22 16 13 17 19 32-36 15 10 10 8 15-15 7 10 10 8 11 9 0 23-24 19 10 12 12 14 7 11 27 18 11 14 11 15 10 12 10 11
132317 Johannes Jurrian Kilmer b.1669 and D.1715 Germany E-M123 12 25 15 11 13-16 11 12 13 13 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 28 14 20 33 14-14-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 13 17 19 36-38 14 10 10 8 15-15 7 10 10 8 12 9 0 23-24 19 11 12 12 16 7 11 25 18 15 13 12 15 10 11 10 11
299149 Abraham Kilmer about 1772 New York Unknown Origin E-M35 13 25 15 11 13-16 11 12 13 13 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 28 14 20 33 14-14-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 14 17 19 36-38 14 10
130140 George Kilmer, Altengronau, Germany Germany E-M35 13 25 15 11 13-16 11 12 13 13 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 28 14 20 33 14-14-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 14 17 19 36-39 14 10
695295 Kilmer Germany E-M35 13 25 15 11 13-16 11 12 13 13 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 28 14 20 33 14-14-16-16 11 12 19-23 16 14 17 19 36-38 14 10

azdahak
05-09-2022, 02:03 PM
Farroukh here are is my y111, but i dont know if its complete yet


16
24
13
11
n/a
n/a
11
12
12
13
11
31
?
9
9
11
11
?
14
?
n/a
?
?
?
?
?
11
?
?
15
13
n/a
n/a
n/a
n/a
14
10
10
8
15
15
7
10
10
8
11
?
0
n/a
n/a
?
11
12
12
n/a
7
12
25
19
?
13
12
14
10
12
10
11
n/a
16
8
16
11
n/a
n/a
19
n/a
12
14
12
14
9
11
11
10
11
12
29
12
?
n/a
14
9
11
28
?
?
n/a
?
n/a
12
16
24
?
21
?
?
14
18
7
12
11

Velislav
05-09-2022, 03:12 PM
Never seen DYS393 starting with 16 - I think we might be dealing with the parallel Indo-Iranian branch here. It is present only on the public Y-tree on FTDNA's website and there are 2 people belonging to it, although no countries are mentioned.

Farroukh
05-09-2022, 03:46 PM
here are is my y111
Azhdahak, despite untypical DYS values NEVGEN predicts you as 100% E-M123*.
It seems you do not belong to any known sub-branch.
But it is just a Y-STR manipulating games, let us wait for the Y-SNP as the final point.

azdahak
05-09-2022, 03:54 PM
Velislav on this website there is written where these samples are from and which culture https://haplogroup.info/all-ancient-dna.htm

or here https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Var iant&searchfor=E-FT167798*&ybp=500000,0
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Var iant&searchfor=E-FT377116&ybp=500000,0

there are more than two so i am confused, but there is written steppe central nomad(from Kyrgyzstan) ,scythian saka(from Kazakhstan),SPGT(from Pakistan) BMAC(from turkmenistan), the last two i have no idea what they stand for BMAC maybe bactria-margiana something like that

so i have to wait another 2 months :\

Velislav
05-09-2022, 04:41 PM
Velislav on this website there is written where these samples are from and which culture https://haplogroup.info/all-ancient-dna.htm

or here https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Var iant&searchfor=E-FT167798*&ybp=500000,0
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Y_Haplotree_Var iant&searchfor=E-FT377116&ybp=500000,0

there are more than two so i am confused, but there is written steppe central nomad(from Kyrgyzstan) ,scythian saka(from Kazakhstan),SPGT(from Pakistan) BMAC(from turkmenistan), the last two i have no idea what they stand for BMAC maybe bactria-margiana something like that

so i have to wait another 2 months :\

Ah, if they are ancient samples that would make sense. These samples are exactly what I call the "Indo-Iranian" branch. It seems like the more ancient and more obscure cousin of E-Y31991. This parallel branch E-FT167798 split probably 10k years ago and we know almost nothing about it except for those ancient samples. If you really belong to it, then you are very rare and unique case. I guess Nevgen probably don't have information about it in their system. At this point, Yfull believe that E-FT167798 predates E-m123* - although on FTDNA, E-FT167798 stem from E-FT20896 which falls within e-m123*, or so I think. Hope Yfull with sort your results fast enough and find you a proper place.

Farroukh
05-09-2022, 05:12 PM
Map of ancient samples (hapl. D&E) (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=22.216656947774535%2C20.940914199999952&z=2)

azdahak
05-10-2022, 07:46 PM
I dont know if this is information is essential but these are my terminal SNPs CTS1297 • CTS1652/Z1152 • CTS1663 • CTS2091/PF2019 • CTS3756 • CTS4346 • CTS6404 • CTS677/PF2015 • CTS9588/V3649 • FGC54823 • L857/PF2017/Z1147/V2469 • M123/PF2023 • PF1967/Z1150 • PF2021/Z1154 • V7729/S23538 • Y125002 • Y5776/FGC18292 • Y5780/FGC18285 • Z1143 • Z1149

Ruderico
05-10-2022, 07:52 PM
I dont know if this is information is essential but these are my terminal SNPs CTS1297 • CTS1652/Z1152 • CTS1663 • CTS2091/PF2019 • CTS3756 • CTS4346 • CTS6404 • CTS677/PF2015 • CTS9588/V3649 • FGC54823 • L857/PF2017/Z1147/V2469 • M123/PF2023 • PF1967/Z1150 • PF2021/Z1154 • V7729/S23538 • Y125002 • Y5776/FGC18292 • Y5780/FGC18285 • Z1143 • Z1149

I think those are all at the M123 level, so far you're still just M123* (the asterisk means you don't belong to any known downstream subclade because you're negative for their specific SNPs)

Farroukh
05-11-2022, 12:13 PM
Yes, he does not belong to known downstreams branches. Let us wait for the summer update of the tree

Farroukh
05-12-2022, 07:54 PM
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-M123/

Azhdahak became definite E-M123* and initiated revision of age/TMRCA for whole E- Y31991.

alchemist223
05-13-2022, 01:36 PM
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-M123/

Azhdahak became definite E-M123* and initiated revision of age/TMRCA for whole E- Y31991.

It seems that Azhdahak is actually positive for 29 out of ~85 SNPs for E-Y31991. On YFull (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-M123/), it is now showing E-M123 > E-Z36113 > E-Y31991.

49567

Ruderico
05-13-2022, 01:40 PM
It seems that Azhdahak is actually positive for 29 out of ~85 SNPs for E-Y31991. On YFull (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-M123/), it is now showing E-M123 > E-Z36113 > E-Y31991.

49567

Yeah he split the branch into two. Z36113 is at FT20896 level as we predicted. Since he's negative for Y31991 odds are he is indeed in the FT179548 branch, which won't show in yfull until more individuals from that branch upload their data...which might take years. Having a very rare haplogroup can be quite frustrating, sometimes I wish I just had a boring R-Z225 like every other bloke around here.

Velislav
05-14-2022, 09:52 AM
So now I hope Yfull would finally add few the ancient samples we got from that branch - 2 Scythians and couple of the Udemi samples. That would be very insightful for Azhdahak and will drop the Tmrca at least to the Bronze age compared to what is now showing up.