W1g Update from FTDNA W+N2a Group/Page

[Vestri]

I just recieved an email regarding my Maternal Haplogroup W1g. Pretty interesting. Seems W1 and W1g in Western Europe is pretty old.


Dear Vestri,

This is an update from the W&N2a mtDNA haplogroup project! We have updated your designation in the project.
For an introduction to the basic concepts of mtDNA, see https://dna-explained.com/2017/05/09/mitochondrial-dna-your-moms-story/

I have placed you in W1g+C569A/A8188G/C16311T!, which differs from FTDNA's designation.

• W is defined by T204C G207A T1243C A3505G G5460A G8251A G8994A A11914G G15884c.
• W1 is defined by C7864T.
• W1+T119C is defined by T119C, but T119C is unstable in W1. You lack this mutation.
• W1g is defined by C16320T.
• W1g+C569A/A8188G/C16311T! is defined by C569A A8188G & C16311T!
• You have the private mutation T7278C

W1g is found in Portugal (Azores), Brazil, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and England. There are even two possible Pakistani samples, but those have not tested FullSequence mtDNA. This spread indicate that the branch is very old. Since all the known W1g have additional private mutations, the branch may be several thousand years old.
W1g+C569A/A8188G/C16311T! has members with matrilineal ancestry from Slovakia and England.

For an overview of W1 samples, see http://www.thecid.com/#w1

We usually say something about the ancient history of the respective W branch here. However there is unfortunately no ancient mtDNA relating to W1g specifically.

In terms of prehistory, there exists a number of ancient skeletons that have been analysed which belong to the W1 subclade:

• The oldest known W1 individual BAR271 is a 8.500-8.200 years old Neolithic male from Barcin in Turkey [Mathieson et al 2015]. The sequence data indicates that the W1 from Turkey has the mutation A8470G which is not found in any current W1, meaning that this individual's lineage is probably not ancestral to those who have tested so far.
• There are two W1 Neolithic individuals LBK1988 and HAL37 found in Stuttgart-Mühlhausen and Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld in Germany that are about 7.250 years old [Haak et al 2015]. These two individuals belonged to the Linear Band Ceramic culture. These two individuals have the exact same mutations as W1 (with an additional T119C).
• There is a W1 Neolithic male VEJ4a found in Veszprém Jutasi út in Hungary that is about 6.700 years old belonging to the Lengyel late Neolithic culture [Lipson et al 2017 preprint] (that also have the additional T119C).
• There is a W1 Neolithic individual GENSCOT26 that is about 5.800 years old from the MacArthur Cave in Scotland (that also have the additional T119C) [Olalde et al 2017].
• There is yet another W1 Copper Stone Age male 1238 that is about 4.500-4.100 years old from Amesbury Down in Wiltshire in England (that also have the additional T119C) [Olalde et al 2017] known as the Amesbury Archers companion. This individual belonged to the Bell Beaker culture that is associated with metal works in gold and copper.

More generally, from ancient autosomal DNA as well as the respective ancient mtDNA, we know that Europe experienced at least two population turnovers:
The Neolithic farming migration probably brought W lineages into Europe for the first time. We know some of these were W1 with T119C. The oldest known W1+T119C ancient individual analysed is over 8.000 years old from Barcin in Turkey. W5 appears to have arrived in the Neolithic of Europe as well.
The second population turnover brought the Ancient North Eurasian component into Europe and India during the Copper and Bronze Ages. This event seems to have brought a number of W branches - W3 and W6 into Europe and India from the Central Asian Steppes. This Ancestral North Eurasian component seems to be associated with the people thought to have brought the Indo-European languages into Europe called Yamnaya. We see a similar flow eastwards towards Iran & India in most of the subgroups of W, and even as far as Thailand & Laos in W3a1b.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them for you.

Regards
Mats Carlin
Volunteer FTDNA mtDNA Haplogroup W and N2a project administrator.

[Amber29]

I am a W1c from 23andme but until i dont get my results from MtDNA, im not confirming the 'c' part yet as i didnt realise there was others so i took it off until then :) we need more of us W's! and I am from Northwest Punjab, Pakistan!

23andMe dont show w1g and w1h i think hence why I am having doubts atm lol

[MacUalraig]

I am a W1c from 23andme but until i dont get my results from MtDNA, im not confirming the 'c' part yet as i didnt realise there was others so i took it off until then :) we need more of us W's! and I am from Northwest Punjab, Pakistan!

23andMe dont show w1g and w1h i think hence why I am having doubts atm lol

Have you checked your raw data against the mtDNA tree? They called me as H5'36 but there actually enough raw SNPs to correctly place me at H5r.

[Amber29]

Have you checked your raw data against the mtDNA tree? They called me as H5'36 but there actually enough raw SNPs to correctly place me at H5r.

Yes I have it is possible but there is only one Indian on the tree - and some more asians ive come across with w1g and w1h but this didnt show up on 23andme tree - though - because when i joined the group i seen alot of results I was so oblivious to it til i joined the group its in process atm so hopefully this confirms it soon lol and then i can add it to my profile xD ha

[parasar]

Yes I have it is possible but there is only one Indian on the tree - and some more asians ive come across with w1g and w1h but this didnt show up on 23andme tree - though - because when i joined the group i seen alot of results I was so oblivious to it til i joined the group its in process atm so hopefully this confirms it soon lol and then i can add it to my profile xD ha

Did you compare with the W1 lines here:
http://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-015-1547-4/MediaObjects/439_2015_1547_MOESM1_ESM.xls
Many samples are undifferentiated W, but some W1c and W1g are present.
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292 146-189-203-204
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292 195
W 223-292-344 195
W 223-292-344 195
W 223-292-362
W 223-292-425A
W 129-223-292
W 38-223-292 189-195-204-207
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 147-155-223-292
W 148-175-223-292
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223
W1c 223-292 119-143-189-195-204-207
W1c 223-291-292 119-189-195-204-207
W1g 223-292-320
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W3 223-292-304 189-194-195-207
W3 223-292-304
W3 223-264-292-304
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 189-223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-210
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-207-257-272-274
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 152-189-194-195-199-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-225-226
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-225
W3a1b 59-71-223 189-194-195-204-207-225
W3a1b (223)-292-297 152?
W3a1b 223-292-297 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292-298 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 93-223-292-297
W3a1b 93-223-292-297 146-190-195-204
W3a1b 93-223-292-297
W3a1b 172-223-292-295 189-194-195-204-207
W3a2 157-209-223-266-292
W3a2 209-223-255-292-381G 189-195-204
W4 223-243-292 189-194-195-204-207-225
W4 223-243-292 6n-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4 145-189-223-292
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 183C-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-(292)-320
W4a 223-286-292 143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4a 223-286-292
W4a 223-286-292-311 119-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4a 223-286-292-311 119-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W6 192-223-292-325
W6 192-223-292-325
W6 192-223-249-292-325
W6 189-192-223-292-325
W6 189-192-223-292-325-355
W6 189-192-223-260-291-292-325-355
W6e 124-192-223-292-325 146-189-194-195-204-207
W6e 124-154-223-292-325 146-189-194-195-204-207

[Amber29]

Did you compare with the W1 lines here:
http://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-015-1547-4/MediaObjects/439_2015_1547_MOESM1_ESM.xls
Many samples are undifferentiated W, but some W1c and W1g are present.
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292 146-189-203-204
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292
W 223-292 195
W 223-292-344 195
W 223-292-344 195
W 223-292-362
W 223-292-425A
W 129-223-292
W 38-223-292 189-195-204-207
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 223-290-292
W 147-155-223-292
W 148-175-223-292
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223 119-189-195-204-207
W1c 223
W1c 223-292 119-143-189-195-204-207
W1c 223-291-292 119-189-195-204-207
W1g 223-292-320
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W1g 261-292-311-320 150-195-214
W3 223-292-304 189-194-195-207
W3 223-292-304
W3 223-264-292-304
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1 189-223-292 143-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-210
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-207-257-272-274
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 152-189-194-195-199-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-225-226
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292 189-194-195-204-207-225
W3a1b 59-71-223 189-194-195-204-207-225
W3a1b (223)-292-297 152?
W3a1b 223-292-297 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 223-292-298 146-189-194-195-204-207
W3a1b 93-223-292-297
W3a1b 93-223-292-297 146-190-195-204
W3a1b 93-223-292-297
W3a1b 172-223-292-295 189-194-195-204-207
W3a2 157-209-223-266-292
W3a2 209-223-255-292-381G 189-195-204
W4 223-243-292 189-194-195-204-207-225
W4 223-243-292 6n-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4 145-189-223-292
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-223-292-320
W4 183C-189-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-292-320
W4 145-189-209-223-(292)-320
W4a 223-286-292 143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4a 223-286-292
W4a 223-286-292-311 119-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W4a 223-286-292-311 119-143-189-192-194-195-196-204-207
W6 192-223-292-325
W6 192-223-292-325
W6 192-223-249-292-325
W6 189-192-223-292-325
W6 189-192-223-292-325-355
W6 189-192-223-260-291-292-325-355
W6e 124-192-223-292-325 146-189-194-195-204-207
W6e 124-154-223-292-325 146-189-194-195-204-207

I am hoping that its belongs to the W1c i did see some of the mutations that belong to w1c - but im definately not w1c1 - that more european well i think this is... but i heard of w1c'i and w1h and w1g because this didnt show up and on james lick the first one was also w1c but there was other things but it gave me best for w1c - i hope i get my results soon.

is the other numbers mutations too? after 119? i know i dont belong to anything else other than W1.... nothing showed me otherwise lol but the table does show some of my background lol.

only reason why im being cautious i dont like to claim something that may not be part of me - (yes i know i overthink lol)

[parasar]

I am hoping that its belongs to the W1c i did see some of the mutations that belong to w1c - but im definately not w1c1 - that more european well i think this is... but i heard of w1c'i and w1h and w1g because this didnt show up and on james lick the first one was also w1c but there was other things but it gave me best for w1c - i hope i get my results soon.

is the other numbers mutations too? after 119? i know i dont belong to anything else other than W1.... nothing showed me otherwise lol but the table does show some of my background lol.

only reason why im being cautious i dont like to claim something that may not be part of me - (yes i know i overthink lol)

No they are not necessarily mutations but differences from the standard. The whole mtDNA tree is convoluted in a sense. It is a comparison to the Cambridge Reference Sequence - haplogroup H2a2a1.
There is way to convert to rCRS to find the actual mutation.

[Amber29]

No they are not necessarily mutations but differences from the standard. The whole mtDNA tree is convoluted in a sense. It is a comparison to the Cambridge Reference Sequence - haplogroup H2a2a1.
There is way to convert to rCRS to find the actual mutation.


the converting part do you mean from the raw data or something else? ( i still have a lot to understand the terms etc when it comes to haplogroup or labels being used, forgive me - still picking up things lol)

[thejkhan]

the converting part do you mean from the raw data or something else? ( i still have a lot to understand the terms etc when it comes to haplogroup or labels being used, forgive me - still picking up things lol)

All mutations have to have a reference.

Mutations w.r.t. RSRS are the mutations your mtdna accumulated since Mitochondrial Eve.

Mutations w.r.t. rCRS are the mutations you have that are different form a H2a2a1 woman.

Converting means switching to a different reference.

That's my understanding. Sounds right, parasar?

[parasar]

All mutations have to have a reference.

Mutations w.r.t. RSRS are the mutations your mtdna accumulated since Mitochondrial Eve.

Mutations w.r.t. rCRS are the mutations you have that are different form a H2a2a1 woman.

Converting means switching to a different reference.

That's my understanding. Sounds right, parasar?

Yes you are correct.
Regarding RSRS:
https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(12)00146-2
"Mutational events along the human mtDNA phylogeny are traditionally identified relative to the revised Cambridge Reference Sequence, a contemporary European sequence published in 1981. This historical choice is a continuous source of inconsistencies, misinterpretations, and errors in medical, forensic, and population genetic studies. Here, after having refined the human mtDNA phylogeny to an unprecedented level by adding information from 8,216 modern mitogenomes, we propose switching the reference to a Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence, which was identified by considering all available mitogenomes from Homo neanderthalensis. This “Copernican” reassessment of the human mtDNA tree from its deepest root should resolve previous problems and will have a substantial practical and educational influence on the scientific and public perception of human evolution by clarifying the core principles of common ancestry for extant descendants."

[Amber29]

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/W/

yfull has a MTtree i didnt know about but this is good :D once i get my results can upload it to this!

[aaronbee2010]

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/W/

yfull has a MTtree i didnt know about but this is good :D once i get my results can upload it to this!

Are you confirming your purchase of a WGS? :P

[Amber29]

Are you confirming your purchase of a WGS? :P

mtcomplete will be sufficient with yseq :P but then the big Y... ill only do WGS probably on my self IF i know what to do with it (im still unsure about its purposes) lol but then again my mtdna from FTDNA will be available in april :P hah you really do make me laugh lol

[aaronbee2010]

mtcomplete will be sufficient with yseq :P but then the big Y... ill only do WGS probably on my self IF i know what to do with it (im still unsure about its purposes) lol but then again my mtdna from FTDNA will be available in april :P hah you really do make me laugh lol

What I mean is, can't you only upload there with a .BAM file? That doesn't come from an mtDNA only FS as far as I know lol

[Amber29]

What I mean is, can't you only upload there with a .BAM file? That doesn't come from an mtDNA only FS as far as I know lol

then why does it say on their website?

29408 FTDNA MTDNA? surely that the FS?

[Amber29]

What I mean is, can't you only upload there with a .BAM file? That doesn't come from an mtDNA only FS as far as I know lol

plus on yseq facebook, thomas krahn posted it that the MTcomplete can be uploaded to YFull? that how i found this out lol

[aaronbee2010]

then why does it say on their website?

29408 FTDNA MTDNA? surely that the FS?


plus on yseq facebook, thomas krahn posted it that the MTcomplete can be uploaded to YFull? that how i found this out lol

Well I've just been proven wrong....N O I C E.

[Amber29]

Well I've just been proven wrong....N O I C E.

you are one funny guy! but i guess this make things easier for you if u done a mt sequence you can upload already for $29 in pounds would be around £21 i think.:P

I was confused so im glad i shared that with you lol... but hey im sure you can upload your test on there now from FTDNA :P

[aaronbee2010]

you are one funny guy! but i guess this make things easier for you if u done a mt sequence you can upload already for $29 in pounds would be around £21 i think.:P

I was confused so im glad i shared that with you lol... but hey im sure you can upload your test on there now from FTDNA :P

I can, but there's not much point as I've already ordered that Dante Labs kit. If I had no plans for WGS then I would definitely do that though :P

EDIT: NVM. I think with a WGS, you can't get mtDNA and Y-DNA added to the trees at the same time. RIP.

I spent most of my remaining money on the Dante Labs kit, so I can't really do a lot right now :(

[Amber29]

I can, but there's not much point as I've already ordered that Dante Labs kit. If I had no plans for WGS then I would definitely do that though :P

EDIT: NVM. I think with a WGS, you can't get mtDNA and Y-DNA added to the trees at the same time. RIP.

I spent most of my remaining money on the Dante Labs kit, so I can't really do a lot right now :(

omg really you cant cant u like extract it or something? Thomas khran did mention about the ydna plans for yfull in the future though! so who knows u may not even need to spend! as i asked him this lol that they do plan to get this on to yfull with just the ydna.

[Amber29]

So guys i am a W1c but I have been placed under Yfull Mtree under W1* and FTdna showed me W1 but the guy confirmed i am actually W1c and its do to with a missing mutation or whatever its called and its common and it usually gets ignored...


I even have the mutation whatever it's called A14148G. and my matches are all european apart from one Indian Vora dude.
anyone explain because i should be under the w1c section not w1*????

(and ofcourse i feel like something is wrong lol)

[Amber29]

29446

I am sure you guys can see where I am placed LOL! odd one out.

[laltota]

So guys i am a W1c but I have been placed under Yfull Mtree under W1* and FTdna showed me W1 but the guy confirmed i am actually W1c and its do to with a missing mutation or whatever its called and its common and it usually gets ignored...


I even have the mutation whatever it's called A14148G. and my matches are all european apart from one Indian Vora dude.
anyone explain because i should be under the w1c section not w1*????

(and ofcourse i feel like something is wrong lol)

Did you do the mtComplete test from YSEQ, and another test from FTDNA?
The guy who confirmed you are W1c, is he from FTDNA?

If YFull have placed you under W1*, I would have thought it means you are not W1c or mtComplete results are missing something? Probably parasar or someone else can comment.

[Amber29]

Did you do the mtComplete test from YSEQ, and another test from FTDNA?
The guy who confirmed you are W1c, is he from FTDNA?

If YFull have placed you under W1*, I would have thought it means you are not W1c or mtComplete results are missing something? Probably parasar or someone else can comment.

the mutation is lacking (T119C) thats why which is a common problem so they ignore it or soemthing , and the admin is analysing my results he said im definately w1c - because it hasnt updated since three years . i only went with FTDNA to get matches (as it has the overall package of what i was after) - guess ima have to go with YSEQ (P*** take) lol - its just annoyed me so much lol

this is what he said :
Dear Amber, you are definitely W1c (since you have the A14148G mutation that defines W1c). However you lack T119C, which according to the official PhyloTree is prior to W1c. However, this is the case for almost half of the W1c samples in our project, so we do not use T119C as a phylogenetic marker anymore in our project. FTDNA has not yet adapted to that since they use software based on the current PhyloTree (which now is about 3 years old).

I think YSEQ would be the same?

[laltota]

the mutation is lacking (T119C) thats why which is a common problem so they ignore it or soemthing , and the admin is analysing my results he said im definately w1c - because it hasnt updated since three years . i only went with FTDNA to get matches (as it has the overall package of what i was after) - guess ima have to go with YSEQ (P*** take) lol - its just annoyed me so much lol

this is what he said :
Dear Amber, you are definitely W1c (since you have the A14148G mutation that defines W1c). However you lack T119C, which according to the official PhyloTree is prior to W1c. However, this is the case for almost half of the W1c samples in our project, so we do not use T119C as a phylogenetic marker anymore in our project. FTDNA has not yet adapted to that since they use software based on the current PhyloTree (which now is about 3 years old).

I think YSEQ would be the same?

You are definitely W1c then, and YFull will move you under W1c after they have finished their analysis.
YSEQ would get the same result I assume.

[Amber29]

You are definitely W1c then, and YFull will move you under W1c after they have finished their analysis.
YSEQ would get the same result I assume.

apparantly im not the only one, but i think that need to be considered for future reference. 23andMe picked up without an issue lol im on V5 but i think they already ignored this mutation 119c one? something they got right.

[Amber29]

so the tree got updated and i come under W1d?

30054

update it is w1c from FTDNA GROUP ADMIN...

but i am so confused now i dont even know whats right anymore.